eevBLAB #72 - BUSTED! Medtronics Open Ventilator FAIL

[Brumby]

Why should they completely give that up?

I don't know that they're necessarily giving up anything. Anybody that wants is still free to buy one from them, which will be the vastly cheaper easier route. Major well-funded competitors won't give a crap or bother looking at this design. The only risk is in being undercut by Chinese knockoffs. U.S. health providers probably wouldn't touch something like that if it risks liability.

Perhaps you misunderstand me.  I am not suggesting that they completely give up anything - but it seems to me that others are.

Comments I have heard indicate an expectation that Medtronics revoking the licence (at known and not open-ended conditions) is unfair to those who do enter manufacture ... and that Medtronics shutting that down is being mean and nasty.  The implication being that these manufacturers should be allowed to continue.  In that case, Medtronics will have lost the rights to their product to the world.

As I see it, the Medtronics licencing here is very much the same as Disney licencing the use of Mickey Mouse.  The licensee can benefit from that under the terms of the licence - and that licence is not a free pass by any stretch of the imagination.

[Dr Bob]

I expect that they need to go through the software and scrub out the "Medtronic" name and any mention of Medtronic or associated companies in the code. There may also be 3rd party licensed code fragments that Medtronic is contractually prevented from releasing without permission which may take time to get sorted out.

Dave Jones, thanks for pointing out that it's a good idea to included Data Sheets with documentation. I've done it for years but when I was in aerospace, I rarely found other engineers following that practice which meant having to pull them all up myself when going over implemented hardware.

[Dr Bob]

The design in question appears to be the most basic ventilator that's been on the market for a decade. Dave is correct in pointing out that anybody that wants to manufacture from the design understand going in what all of the ramifications of the license might be. What happens if the pandemic status is downgraded and you have a few thousand complete units in stock and another thousand in process? Can you sell all or some of those or will you be required to destroy them? I'd like to have a license that states that I have X days to wind down production and the ability to sell remaining completed stock for X period of time to recoup component costs. Perhaps Medtronic would be open to that but it would need to be formal and in writing.

There's no knowing how long the pandemic status will apply, so it could be a huge gamble to get into manufacturing ventilators on Medtronic's existing terms. If you wind up production and the day after you go into producing finished units the license ends, you could be out thousands of dollars and sitting on a huge inventory of parts and trained employees that you won't be able to pay. Maybe sales to government stockpiles can be allowed for a specified interval. That would keep units off of the general market, but still on hand for the next time. Maybe all you can get is cost, but it keeps you from destitute through trying to help.

I don't worry about the sticker that reads "For Covid-19 use only". That will come off easily in third world countries that don't have as many lawyers as they have limitations on health care spending.

[Brumby]

What happens if the pandemic status is downgraded and you have a few thousand complete units in stock and another thousand in process?

That is, indeed, a very important question - and Medtronics should address that immediately.  I expect potential manufacturers would be unlikely to dive in without a satisfactory answer.

[EEVblog]

They have again modified their web page replacing
"Our hope is that manufacturers and engineers will use this intellectual property to inspire their own potentially lifesaving innovations."
with
"Medtronic publicly posted design specifications for the Puritan BennettTM 560 (PB560) to allow innovators, inventors, start-ups, and academic institutions to leverage their own expertise and resources to evaluate options for rapid ventilator manufacturing. Medtronic’s goal has been to release this information in phases over the course a brief period."

Bet you bottom dollar that is deliberate.

[Lord of nothing]

I don't worry about the sticker that reads "For Covid-19 use only". That will come off easily in third world countries that don't have as many lawyers as they have limitations on health care spending.

Well I am afraid get on one "of the shelf" one who maybe Damage my organs more.
I personally would say its better to die than "life" like a Vegetable. Thats just my opinion.

Another Topic is in many Country where People must pay for every Medical Treatment them self what should the do when the get released and must pay a 5 or even 6 digit Amount for be on a ICU?

[EEVblog]

Virgin Orbit asked Real Engineering take down his video. What a bunch of dicks!

[rstofer]

I don't think Medtronics ever intended for their life safety device to be built in someone's garage.  I rather expect they released the design for major companies (General Motors, Ford Motor Company, et al) to get a head start on complying with President Trump's order that they begin manufacturing ventilators rather than automobiles.

It would take years for those major manufacturers to come up with a design that could be approved and Medtronics, to their credit, just shortened the startup time.

Picking on Ford and GM was based on the idea that these companies can manufacture a LOT of product.  They have the machine tools, they have the machinists, they have engineering and procurement plus they have money.  What they need is something to work on.  Now they have the design of a device that is already FDA approved.  Copy and Paste! 

All that assumes that the BOM stuff is actually available and, of course, they would be competing with Medtronics for those components.  I think the real problem is going to be with the small parts manufacturers.  Maybe Ford or GM will have to buy those companies and kick up the production rates.  Automobile manufacturers understand volume.

Life safety based on Open Source?  Really?  I'm going to trust a machine built in my neighbor's garage?  Have any of these builders though about the amount of liability insurance they're going to need?

I suppose Arduinos will show up here as well.

[rstofer]

What happens if the pandemic status is downgraded and you have a few thousand complete units in stock and another thousand in process?

That is, indeed, a very important question - and Medtronics should address that immediately.  I expect potential manufacturers would be unlikely to dive in without a satisfactory answer.

I know the automakers were concerned about the money when Trump ordered them to start building ventilators but no other companies have the resources of GM and Ford.

Here's an interesting article:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/05/automakers-gm-ford-ventilators-coronavirus-detroit

Note the size of the plants - multiple millions of square feet available for these projects.

Now all they have to do is get the autoworkers on the same page.

[rstofer]

They have again modified their web page replacing
"Our hope is that manufacturers and engineers will use this intellectual property to inspire their own potentially lifesaving innovations."
with
"Medtronic publicly posted design specifications for the Puritan BennettTM 560 (PB560) to allow innovators, inventors, start-ups, and academic institutions to leverage their own expertise and resources to evaluate options for rapid ventilator manufacturing. Medtronic’s goal has been to release this information in phases over the course a brief period."

Bet you bottom dollar that is deliberate.

Medtronics has a certain manufacturing capacity and no justification for expanding.  In fact, when this debacle is over and hospitals are flooded with ventilators they don't need, Medtronic's market will be even smaller (potentially zero) for years to come.  Expanding capacity is foolish.  Maybe they can work more shifts but capital investment on additional equipment would be a money loser.

So, to avoid being criticized for not creating a dubious expansion plan, they simply open up the design.  Their market is dead anyway so why not?  They will create a newer model (and may already have some that are superior to the one they released) if and when the market recovers.  For now, they need to batten down the hatches if the company is to survive.

[Brumby]

So, to avoid being criticized for not creating a dubious expansion plan, they simply open up the design.  Their market is dead anyway so why not?  They will create a newer model (and may already have some that are superior to the one they released) if and when the market recovers.  For now, they need to batten down the hatches if the company is to survive.

When you think about it, this has an enormous marketing potential, especially if the outcome is positive and significant (which it has the ability to be).  I can easily envisage future purchasers of their equipment getting a positive "vibe" when they see the Medtronics name.  Such a presence in a market will be worth sales.

[MasterBuilder]

The 4th set of files are available:

https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/pb560-vent-files-4.zip

[EEVblog]

When you think about it, this has an enormous marketing potential

Of course, and they knew it. They have had some bad publicity lately as I pointed out in my video.
So release files locked up with a license that prevents competition from using any of it in the medium to long term. They can't lose.
Smart ploy actually.

[EEVblog]

The 4th set of files are available:
https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/pb560-vent-files-4.zip

Looks like all the BOM's and drawings.

[MasterBuilder]

Now the 5th set is up:
https://www.medtronic.com/content/dam/medtronic-com/global/Corporate/covid19/downloads/ventilator-files/pb560-vent-exes.zip


Compiled Software Files it says.