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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on May 06, 2020, 11:49:48 pm

Title: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: EEVblog on May 06, 2020, 11:49:48 pm
Review of the $225 Kingsom KS-180 HEPA flexible arm solder fume extractor.
Does it suck?

http://www.kingsomtech.com/product/Fume-Extractor/ (http://www.kingsomtech.com/product/Fume-Extractor/)
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Kingsom-Nail-Suction-Dust-Collector_62409199915.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Kingsom-Nail-Suction-Dust-Collector_62409199915.html)
Another brand: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_dVTRYeV (https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_dVTRYeV)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffaiKZMU0Lw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffaiKZMU0Lw)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 07, 2020, 12:28:06 am
Looks good Dave but just wondering if you found a link for replacement filters please?

It's got a suck like a cow and it makes you go wow  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: EEVblog on May 07, 2020, 12:59:16 am
Looks good Dave but just wondering if you found a link for replacement filters please?

Not yet, they haven't gotten back to me, and I can't find them on their store.
They have to sell them, I can't imagine they wouldn't.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 07, 2020, 01:20:05 am
Yes one would hope so. Can we trouble you to put a link in your video description when you hear back from them. The Hakko one of a similar construction is an arm and a leg and this seems to have comparable performance.

We can't all be like Paul Daniels and build our own :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: johnlsenchak on May 07, 2020, 01:44:56 am


That  video   image is  awesome    ! LOL


I  worked  at a company  that made switch mode power supplies  for the medical field . They  had a row of solder pots  for tinning   transformer and choke leads. Each  solder pot  had a  fume  extractor  opening  that was piped along the way  picking up each solder pot  opening  as  it went down  the line   The end of the pipe   went into a metal  box    with a filter a huge  squirrel   cage  fan  inside.  The exhaust went up through the roof  of the building.  It was a pretty  thought  out    system  of fume  extraction  that  prevented the workers  from  getting sick  off the   solder  pot  nastiness. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: NiHaoMike on May 07, 2020, 03:20:30 am
What I do is attach an 80mm server fan to the end of a length of 3" flexible air duct so that the fan pulls air through the duct. (A 3D printed adapter is best but duct tape also works.) Then I put the fan in an open window or in the bathroom with the exhaust fan running. Costs about $15 for a 25' length of duct plus under $10 for the fan and under $10 for the power supply if you have to buy those. Just $35 total and no filters to replace, then the generous length of duct really cuts down on noise.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: EEVblog on May 07, 2020, 03:34:17 am
This one has a lower noise spec and has free DHL shipping: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_BffhOC9x

If you want just the flexible tubing for a DIY solution: https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_d8U2dMl
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Inflex on May 07, 2020, 03:38:47 am
Definitely interested once I know if replacement filters and subsequent costs are.

Sure, I do have my own system right now ( 8" 200W motor in to a 600mm carbon canister ) but at the end of the day, I'd be more than content to pay a bit of coin and get one of these units (and add a bit more silencing medium on the underside)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Inflex on May 07, 2020, 06:33:47 am
Looks good Dave but just wondering if you found a link for replacement filters please?

Not yet, they haven't gotten back to me, and I can't find them on their store.
They have to sell them, I can't imagine they wouldn't.

What if they're using the printer model... sell the unit at a loss with 'trial filters' that last 3 months, and then replacement filters cost more than the whole machine ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 07, 2020, 11:53:14 am
Good point Mr D  :) I hate that model, totally unscrupulous. It does pay to be safe though doesn’t it. The internet is a dangerous place for us and our readies
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: mattselectronics on May 07, 2020, 07:22:35 pm
Somehow this units also look very similar to the kingsom devices:
https://www.vaupel-shop.de/anwendungen/loetrauchabsaugung/lotrauchabsaugung-typ-vaupel-lab-1f.html (https://www.vaupel-shop.de/anwendungen/loetrauchabsaugung/lotrauchabsaugung-typ-vaupel-lab-1f.html)

I wonder if it is cheaper to directly import one from china or to get it from the german reseller.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on May 07, 2020, 11:13:44 pm

I've just come back inside after spending the afternoon burning weeds off the driveway with a huge propane torch...   the smoke from soldering something just doesn't do it for me any more, I need bigger hits! :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: langwadt on May 08, 2020, 02:15:16 am
What I do is attach an 80mm server fan to the end of a length of 3" flexible air duct so that the fan pulls air through the duct. (A 3D printed adapter is best but duct tape also works.) Then I put the fan in an open window or in the bathroom with the exhaust fan running. Costs about $15 for a 25' length of duct plus under $10 for the fan and under $10 for the power supply if you have to buy those. Just $35 total and no filters to replace, then the generous length of duct really cuts down on noise.

venting to the outside is much better and afaik a legal requirement for workplaces here, but I don't see a computer fan with the restriction of long flexible hose
making much air flow 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 08, 2020, 02:41:58 am

I've just come back inside after spending the afternoon burning weeds off the driveway with a huge propane torch...   the smoke from soldering something just doesn't do it for me any more, I need bigger hits! :D

Yeah real men sniff car exhausts for fun :)

What I do is attach an 80mm server fan to the end of a length of 3" flexible air duct so that the fan pulls air through the duct. (A 3D printed adapter is best but duct tape also works.) Then I put the fan in an open window or in the bathroom with the exhaust fan running. Costs about $15 for a 25' length of duct plus under $10 for the fan and under $10 for the power supply if you have to buy those. Just $35 total and no filters to replace, then the generous length of duct really cuts down on noise.

venting to the outside is much better and afaik a legal requirement for workplaces here, but I don't see a computer fan with the restriction of long flexible hose
making much air flow

wouldn't suck the skin off a pudding
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: thmjpr on May 08, 2020, 03:41:41 am
Looks like a really solid unit for $220.
The circular filter is likely a lot less restrictive with its higher surface area, so it will get better airflow over the Pace. However, Pace clearly meets higher standards, and will have wayyyy more activated carbon inside. This one will be fine for filtering smoke, but won't do well against solvents, etc. as you noted in vid.

If you are on a budget, either do what Nihaomike is suggesting, or do this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under-$50/msg2803112/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under-$50/msg2803112/)

venting to the outside is much better and afaik a legal requirement for workplaces here, but I don't see a computer fan with the restriction of long flexible hose
making much air flow

Depends, the "server fan" might be a 80x40mm screaming Delta that pushes a ton of air. But yes, generally PC fans are not optimal for these sort of applications. In the link above I've recommended some reasonably priced fans with solid static pressure. Better centrifugal fans may exist, if you can figure out how to mount them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: c64 on May 08, 2020, 04:11:55 am
Stupid idea (or maybe not?)... put vacuum cleaner under table, hose on top. Just need to stick filter inside somehow
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Inflex on May 08, 2020, 04:18:31 am
Stupid idea (or maybe not?)... put vacuum cleaner under table, hose on top. Just need to stick filter inside somehow

Technically it works; there's two issues;

1) the power consumption (800~1500W, vs 150~200W)
2) the NOISE :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: all_repair on May 08, 2020, 05:40:32 am
Bought mine few years back, but a different version.  For soldering needs, I replace the inner filter which is a thick box with active carbon and few layer of thinner air filter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 08, 2020, 08:13:54 am
If you are on a budget, either do what Nihaomike is suggesting, or do this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under-)$50/msg2803112/
  I would love to look at that post but your link is going 404

Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: jonovid on May 08, 2020, 01:37:40 pm
in my opinion to make your solder fume extractor quiet.  :-/O
add wool felt sheet to around the inside of the air bell just inside the end of the flexible hose pipe
and add more wool felt sheet to around an up-right cone in the middle of the twin filter rings
you may also like to mount the fan motor on a anti vibration bed or foam rubber block.
also add more wool felt sheet to around the inside of the air out take of the fan
as this is the acoustic choke points of the sound .   see my diagram of solder fume extractor.
Note- grammatically incorrect air ball?  :palm: is bell as-in a trumpet bell.
at this diagram representation description was made quickly before the thought ended
update-
even if you do not have an anechoic test chamber or soundproof room.
in my opinion one can still test sound levels with nothing more then an
oscilloscope & microphone . so getting that anechoic muffler or anechoic baffle set just right inside your unit
the ideal situation is to have all additional anechoic modifications reversible or otherwise removable.
wool felt has excellent sound deadening properties. and can be glued to a backing material
in the case of a flexible hose pipe. a pvc pipe 5 or 10 cm wide collar with a gap cut out of it so it works as a spring.
a little larger than the inside diameter of the flexible hose pipe.
the wool felt would be glued to the inside of the pvc pipe  collar with a gap cut out of it. so its a "C" type spring.
inserted into the end of the flexible hose pipe inside the air bell, the then moved back or forward for the best
air flow vs sound suppression. 
2: as for the fun / motor anti vibration bed. 
the idea is to have a block of foam rubber screws to the motor unit top-down.
and second set of screws go in a added collar under the foam rubber go up but not touching the other screws to the motor unit.
so the fan motor unit it is on a floating bed of foam rubber. stopping vibrations entering the case of the extractor.
if constructed right, the collar under the foam rubber will mirror the holes in the top of the motor,  longer screws
will hold it in place. so you have two sets of screws in-between each other.
this is all assuming that their is space for the added foam rubber inside the case.
-as a foam rubber or wool felt baffle set in front of the fun out-let on the inside of the case, can also good for sound suppression
 ;D

Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: grythumn on May 08, 2020, 02:30:33 pm
If you are on a budget, either do what Nihaomike is suggesting, or do this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under- (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under-)$50/msg2803112/
  I would love to look at that post but your link is going 404

You just need to use the full URL Like This (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/the-best-diy-fume-extractor-for-under-$50/msg2803112/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 09, 2020, 07:45:36 am
Thanks, I just clicked on your original link not realising that the whole text hadn't been made a link
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: dhaillant on May 09, 2020, 09:38:36 am
Same product, different brand name: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-Price-Fume-Extractor-Tabletop-FC_62409523874.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.60ea71dep9dN2n (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Cheap-Price-Fume-Extractor-Tabletop-FC_62409523874.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.0.0.60ea71dep9dN2n)
"FumeClear FC-180"
https://www.fumeclear.com/ (https://www.fumeclear.com/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: c64 on May 10, 2020, 02:08:55 am
Stupid idea (or maybe not?)... put vacuum cleaner under table, hose on top. Just need to stick filter inside somehow

Technically it works; there's two issues;

1) the power consumption (800~1500W, vs 150~200W)
2) the NOISE :D

Some vacuum cleaners have adjustable suction. On minimum almost no noise and I suppose power consumption is low as well
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Inflex on May 10, 2020, 02:21:14 am
Stupid idea (or maybe not?)... put vacuum cleaner under table, hose on top. Just need to stick filter inside somehow

Technically it works; there's two issues;

1) the power consumption (800~1500W, vs 150~200W)
2) the NOISE :D

Some vacuum cleaners have adjustable suction. On minimum almost no noise and I suppose power consumption is low as well

Chances are most of those with those features will be more expensive than the fume extractor.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: james_s on May 10, 2020, 03:55:36 am
I got a smaller but similar fume extractor a while back, I should have bought one years ago. I can solder at the coffee table while watching TV without the lady complaining about the smell. I can also get in close to something where I need to see it up close and not have the smoke going right in my face.

I don't know why the name brand extractors are so expensive, they're not exactly high tech. The hose and funnel are the hardest part to build, the rest is just a fan in a box with a charcoal filter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Hengy on May 10, 2020, 07:44:45 pm
I am looking to go the DIY route. Probably cost me the same in components, but save me a fortune in shipping if I get most of the large parts on Amazon.

The one thing I can't find is the semi-rigid tubing, similar to the one on the fume extractor in the video. My college uses a flexible tubing with what seems like wire sprial. The one in the video seems like many plastic parts friction fit together.

Does anyone know where I can find an inexpensive one? Maybe I am just searching for the wrong name?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Hengy on May 10, 2020, 10:05:46 pm
Thats exactly what is in the video! It's very expensive though... Any chance you know an less expensive alternative?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: KaneTW on May 10, 2020, 11:57:48 pm
What static pressure would I need for 1.5m of 75mm tubing?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: coppercone2 on May 11, 2020, 12:55:47 am
cleaning that hose is fucking vile

they don't sell the tool for that hose either, like they do for smaller hoses, and it does not come apart easy after a while. Best luck is to bend it into a ultrasonic cleaner into segments and push it through at different angles. I did it once and I was seething. Talk about wrestling with a snake.

dave jones is sure on a indoor air quality kick.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 12, 2020, 08:15:31 am
Surely some of the technically more gifted among us can come up with a cost effective design for a filtration system ? For Gods sake, the HEPA filter for the Hakko FA-430 is $320 AUD It's a filter with a charcoal section added how the hell can it cost that much. Highway robbery  :)

I will pretty well guarantee that the Aliexpress seller will never get back to Dave with a link and cost of replacement filters but I hope that I am wrong. At least on Ebay there is a good submission system to ask sellers questions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Fungus on May 12, 2020, 09:26:36 am
Definitely interested once I know if replacement filters and subsequent costs are.

I'd be interested in purchasing the filters and making my own.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 12, 2020, 10:03:13 am
Inflex shared links for a suitable fan and filter that would make a good start IMO

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-Inch-200mm-Hydroponics-Activated-Carbon-Filter-HyFlo-RC-412-Black-Edition/262545457023?epid=2280429242&hash=item3d20edbf7f%3Ag%3AczoAAOSwDZlajyW8&fbclid=IwAR0Qjq-ESvTlVn4-YYjBsMY9OMhRiLPtxh4Zhu1c1EDakiJkTMNe7YpkICA (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-Inch-200mm-Hydroponics-Activated-Carbon-Filter-HyFlo-RC-412-Black-Edition/262545457023?epid=2280429242&hash=item3d20edbf7f%3Ag%3AczoAAOSwDZlajyW8&fbclid=IwAR0Qjq-ESvTlVn4-YYjBsMY9OMhRiLPtxh4Zhu1c1EDakiJkTMNe7YpkICA)

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIVOSUN-4-6-8-inch-Inline-Ventilation-Tube-Duct-Fan-w-Speed-Controller-AU/352830966285?fbclid=IwAR1zAriWbyT92Snpj3o6stcJmkeOZWZuJheUfiD8I2eTeJTkBUEZ6fPdbo4 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIVOSUN-4-6-8-inch-Inline-Ventilation-Tube-Duct-Fan-w-Speed-Controller-AU/352830966285?fbclid=IwAR1zAriWbyT92Snpj3o6stcJmkeOZWZuJheUfiD8I2eTeJTkBUEZ6fPdbo4)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Fungus on May 12, 2020, 04:25:22 pm
Inflex shared links for a suitable fan and filter that would make a good start IMO

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-Inch-200mm-Hydroponics-Activated-Carbon-Filter-HyFlo-RC-412-Black-Edition/262545457023?epid=2280429242&hash=item3d20edbf7f%3Ag%3AczoAAOSwDZlajyW8&fbclid=IwAR0Qjq-ESvTlVn4-YYjBsMY9OMhRiLPtxh4Zhu1c1EDakiJkTMNe7YpkICA (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-Inch-200mm-Hydroponics-Activated-Carbon-Filter-HyFlo-RC-412-Black-Edition/262545457023?epid=2280429242&hash=item3d20edbf7f%3Ag%3AczoAAOSwDZlajyW8&fbclid=IwAR0Qjq-ESvTlVn4-YYjBsMY9OMhRiLPtxh4Zhu1c1EDakiJkTMNe7YpkICA)

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIVOSUN-4-6-8-inch-Inline-Ventilation-Tube-Duct-Fan-w-Speed-Controller-AU/352830966285?fbclid=IwAR1zAriWbyT92Snpj3o6stcJmkeOZWZuJheUfiD8I2eTeJTkBUEZ6fPdbo4 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIVOSUN-4-6-8-inch-Inline-Ventilation-Tube-Duct-Fan-w-Speed-Controller-AU/352830966285?fbclid=IwAR1zAriWbyT92Snpj3o6stcJmkeOZWZuJheUfiD8I2eTeJTkBUEZ6fPdbo4)

I have something very similar to those for my laser cutter.

You can also get filter "socks" that filter down to 0.5 micron and can be stuffed inside that carbon filter, eg.:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272335155714 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/272335155714)

You can wash them out a couple of times, too.

(Yes, they're for aquariums...  :) )
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: helio0centra@gmail.com on May 12, 2020, 09:19:31 pm
I found one basically the same for a little less on Ali Express, but no wheels.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33041102828.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33041102828.html)

Looks like you buy the filters in 3 separate parts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on May 12, 2020, 09:50:20 pm
Ouch $190 shipping to Australia in 28 - 49 days and someone had the hide to say fast shipping in the comments
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on June 04, 2020, 12:35:37 pm
Just looking at second hand Pace units. Crazy prices for the presumably main filter $280 n-$450 AUD OUCH  :palm:

Off topic but Hey @Fungus, do you by chance frequent the Arduino forum ? Sorry @Inflex :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Inflex on June 04, 2020, 12:37:16 pm
Off topic but Hey @Fungus, do you by chance frequent the Arduino forum ? Sorry @Inflex :)

You're killing me --- you knew I'd see that.

(Almost as bad as the prices on those filters, but I suppose it's cheaper than a new set of lungs)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on June 04, 2020, 12:54:26 pm
I know I am a bad man :) Hey I get the disdain that you have for that unmentionable Micro controller system. I have read up a bit about how inefficient it is compared to the real nuts & bolts instructions to the controller.  I get it but also I get that said system has opened up using micros to people who would never have given it a try if it hadn't been for said system. We shall never mention this again :) Honest  |O. Three words Direct port manipulation
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: GotZapped on August 14, 2020, 11:58:02 pm
Hi all,

Looking at Dave's video tear down, the centrifugal (squirrel cage) fan/blower appears to have an external brushless DC motor (5-wire). The controller board looks like it could be a stepper motor...not sure.

As Dave pointed out it's unmarked with only a S/N that looks like a date stamp.

I've searched the usual suspects, ebay, Alibaba, etc, but I cannot find anything remotely similar. The only centrifugal fans I've found are larger with the motor mounted inside the squirrel cage.
 
Does anyone know where to buy this type of fan?

Surely the fan is not exclusive to Kingsom?

Cheers
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: mondalaci on September 20, 2020, 03:47:33 pm
Hi guys! I purchased this fume extractor (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000415470229.html) on AliExpress, and it sucks like a champ, but it's quite loud. I put the sound meter on my desk, and it shows 70 db instead of the 55 db specified. Any suggestions on a quieter fume extractor? Of course, it'd be important to also measure the vacuum, otherwise I may end up with a quieter but less powerful fume extractor. I don't know how to measure the vacuum.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: gussy on December 30, 2020, 09:57:51 am
A few of these variants are showing up on Amazon (US) now. Has anyone had any luck sourcing the replacement filters? It seems like all of these AliExpress xx-180 models recommend 3 months between filter changes, although I'm sure the filters would last at least year with more casual use.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on December 30, 2020, 02:16:03 pm
I think that is the problem with these cheaper units - you cannot get replacement filters for them. I got sick of procrastinating about getting a decent fume extractor so I bit the bullet and got the Quick 6601. Filters are available at a reasonable price and cheaper than the Hakko or Weller. I am in the middle of reorganising my work space so I haven't used it yet but am confident it will suit my needs (touch wood) https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/164445553953 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/164445553953)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: gussy on December 30, 2020, 08:39:38 pm
The Quick 6601 looks like a good option. Unless filters for the cheaper units start to become available, the Hakko FA430 is starting to look like a better option again. You can get those filters next-day from DigiKey whenever you need them.

Companies like Kingsom have to sell filter packs, they would be crazy to not sell replacement filters. I guess they just haven't made their way to AliExpress yet.

Edit:
I did some more digging and found what looks like a re-brand of the KS-180 on Amazon, the XF-180. The listing has the "main filter" for $100, but it doesn't seem to have the other two filters: https://www.amazon.com/BAOSHISHAN-Absorber-Extractor-Soldering-Workbench/dp/B081DLN7RF (https://www.amazon.com/BAOSHISHAN-Absorber-Extractor-Soldering-Workbench/dp/B081DLN7RF)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: gussy on December 31, 2020, 09:04:40 am
Bit of an update. Kingsom got back to me, filters are available and cheap. They quoted around $42 USD for a full set of the pre/mid/main filters. If you're comfortable buying direct then theKS-180 still seems like a good option.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on December 31, 2020, 12:11:00 pm
Great, can you post links so people can check them out please ? Thanks
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: gussy on December 31, 2020, 09:50:57 pm
There's no links, you'll need to contact Kingsom using the same Alibaba link Dave posted in the OP and deal with them diretly, at least until someone starts importing them to your region.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Pedro147 on January 01, 2021, 11:27:23 am
There's no links, you'll need to contact Kingsom using the same Alibaba link Dave posted in the OP and deal with them diretly, at least until someone starts importing them to your region.

Thanks :) 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 11, 2021, 09:08:50 am
Before you buy any of high-end solder fume extractor or even low end
ask the manufacturer of it about does it remove lead gas ?! because i have some doubts about that !

for past few year ive experimenting with soldering air filtration i started from can-lite filters
after some time i was understand about activated carbon itself is not enough to remove most of smallest gas particles generated during soldering
these include:
-formaldehyde ethyl acids phenol gas and many others included in soldering flux
-lead (pb) gas

To clean air from these smallest particles this commerciall fume extractors use usually standard activated carbon mixed with impregnated carbons or activated alumina balls - they threat them with potassium permanganate which is in short kmno4 media

the kmno4 convert smallest particles to largest (oxidise them) and finally these largest particles are easy absordable by rest of non impragnated activated carbon which is suitable only for large particles such as odours (in this setup formaldehyde and other are oxidised to odours)

Some of solder fume extractors use catalitic activated carbon or carbon impregnated by potassium iodide or molecular sieves

but the main pit hole in gas stage filtration is about - does these impregnated media could remove lead gas ?! in short i have some doubts about this and i didnt make yet more experiments coz maybe potassium permanganate could oxidise lead

I didnt find reveal informations about lead (pb) gas stage filtration in google so i guessing is hard to remove it from air stream

there exist some speciallised carbons impregnated by for example elemental sulfur to remove mercury from air stream
the mercury is one of heavy metal too but maybe for lead need another media

Usually fume extractors companies doesnt inform you about about what exactly you paying for , they just inform about they units can successfuly remove dust microparticles (hepa + prefilters) which is just part of particles called dust , but totally zero informations about gas media type in use and whats they exactly cleaning from air !

We can compare there another air filters home humidiffiers - they allways inform you about what kind of gas filtration media they use - does i dont have right ?! some of them use just coconut activated carbon which some others use potassium permagnate media and some others use molecular sieves but they allways let you know about for what you exactly paying for !

In short i think any of these solder fume extractors doesnt remove lead gas :( and if you are hobbyst for sure you wont soldering with lead free tin then would be uselless to buying them

Certain usefull informations which i collected about these solder fume extractors and believe me it wasnt easy to find them !

Chinese solder fume extractors type Quick 6101A + some of they clones such as WATERUN F6002D use catalitic activated carbon

High end solder fume extractors such as BOFA V200 250 300 and Weller zero smog use potassium permanganate

I also sended emails to few of these solder fume extractors companies about does they filters remove lead gas ? and only 1 answer ive received from JBC company which is partially missleadded

quote

Good morning Lukas,

 

JBC fume extractor can protect you of the solder fumes, either leaded or lead-free.

 

However, complete protection in lead soldering is possible only if you follow Safety Data Sheet of solder lead wire producer,

Good ventilation in the office, eye protection, protective clothing….

FAE has 3 filters, according to mentioned standards below:

Medium dust filter M5 (EN 779)

H13 particle filter (EN 1822)

Activated carbon filter

He wrote answer about dust prefilter + hepa filtration stage except gas

Another misleaded information i found on hakko website about lead gas ;)

https://hakkousa.com/lead-free/

(20) Will the Hakko HJ3100 extract lead fumes?

There is not, and never has been, a need to extract 'lead fumes' from the air while soldering. The smoke is a by-product of partial combustion of the soldering flux. No more. No less. Lead does not vaporize at soldering temperatures.

This information is 20 year old and is totally bullshit ! and offcourse there you have trully answer about just one from many solder fume extractors type hakko about it doesnt remove lead gas ;)

Any informations there about lead (pb) gas filtration stage removal are welcome , also more informations about these fume extractors which could help us to choose right one , they are expensiff and you never know about whats you exactly paying for until you buy them !

And btw. if you didnt know the symptoms of metallic taste in mouth fevers memory loss problems with concentrations you getting from lead gas only ! (not from lead dust microparticles which can be easy cleaned by hepa filters)

I did many experiments in past with custom made carbon filters ive never uses hepa just MERV 14 class dust filters and when i apply more carbon or slowing down air outlet (excedded time contact with carbon) then i reduce more more % of lead gas which cause these health problems (activated carbon could remove lead gas but just a small %) so here you have answer hepa isnt important for lead removal but gas media

Another informations found in google

A novel discovery is that KMnO 4 can facilitate HMO removing heavy metal. The results showed that residual Pb(II), Ni(II) and Cd(II) in pH ∼8 were 0.01 mg/L, 0.02 mg/L and 0.05 mg/L after depth reaction, respectively. The mechanism of oxidation of Pb(II) in alkaline solution by KMnO 4 with HMO catalyst was studied. The XPS results demonstrated that HMO improved oxidation efficiency of KMnO 4and the products Pb(IV) content increased by 50 percent approximately. The mechanism of Ni(II) removal was similar to Pb(II). Cd(II) could be absorbed but not be oxidized, while KMnO 4 accelerated Cd(II) removal effect of HMO as well. KMnO 4 promotion was still existing in the acidic conditions, which showed KMnO 4 could promote HMO adsorption of heavy metal, and reaction mechanism is required for further study.

Ive kmno4 alumina balls in basement soon i shake them with activated carbon and do test and let you know !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: nctnico on February 11, 2021, 09:16:33 am
Unless you set your iron way to hot the lead won't boil and thus emit no gas. Also you are supposed to solder mostly lead-free nowadays. IOW: having lead gas (and tin gas as well) in the soldering fumes is highly unlikely to put it mildly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 11, 2021, 10:09:24 am
Unless you set your iron way to hot the lead won't boil and thus emit no gas. Also you are supposed to solder mostly lead-free nowadays. IOW: having lead gas (and tin gas as well) in the soldering fumes is highly unlikely to put it mildly.
i solder with lead-free for few years but i dont like it , in short i searching solution to back to leadded soldering but secure myself against lead gas

this about what you write could be truth about lead gas isnt emited in 100% in soldering temperatures but for sure in some of % it exist
you can do simply test by inhalling leadded tin vs lead-free one the main difference you fell would be metallic taste in mouth caused by leadded tin this is the signall about youre inhalling lead gas . with lead-free tin you wouldnt fell it and btw. there many other health symptoms from lead gas but some people doesnt fell it can solder many hours but some others would fell its deffects in beetwen few minutes so you know

And btw. this 20 year old information about lead doesnt evaporate in soldering temperatures is misleadded information from some of solder fume extractors manufactures such as HAKKO ;) coz in reality they granulated carbon filters which costs big money can maybe absorb no more than 5% of lead gas and more than 25% of formaldhyde etc. vapours from fluxes

And as if you have in plan to buy one of these extractors i dont recommend you waisting even 10 euro for hakko fa-430 unit , better if you choose instead of it chinese waterun f6002D because except standard activated carbon it use catalitic impregnated carbon which is directed to clean air from flux fumes (smallest particles) and cost small money also have filters very cheap by comparing to this hakko crap :)

and btw what is more whorse about hakko fa430 about if it has just granulated usuall carbon it will not stand so long you will contaminate it very fast by formaldehyde fumes and this carbon is cheapest one from market !

in different case scenario if fume extractor uses one of impregnated carbons or alumin balls with kmno4 theyre directed to flux smallest particles then it will stand very long untill you contaminate it , simply example there is catalitic carbon implemented in waterun extractors

these impregnated carbons and alumina balls are much more expensiff than usuall carbon , now compare price for waterun filters and hakko fa430 filters

Kingsom KS-180 presented there by Dave is one of another chinese fume absorbers but that one looks like have only impregnated carbon foam so i think it isnt sufficient to clean flux fumes at all , some of waterun models have filters like that too but the model F6002D i can confirm it have catalitic carbon inside

also some other chinese clones like bashoshisan they use another media type - moleculelar sieve , about this you should watch out because molecular sieves except filtering flux gas they are mostly irritant when inhalled ! the sieve is cheap alternative to alumina balls impregnated with kmno4 i think better than molecular sieve is catalitic carbon because it doesnt irritiate when inhalled

in short we should have on sticker when buying any of this filters what kind of filtration media is inside it !!! - do i have right or not ? 
if someone is paying big money for this units he should know about is they use kmno4 or molecular sieves
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 11, 2021, 02:25:16 pm

The boiling point of lead is 1749°C.

How much lead gas are we going to see when soldering around 300°C?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 11, 2021, 05:40:24 pm
It's already well established that there are traces of lead in the air when soldering  [...]

I did not know that.  Is there any references for that where I can learn more about it?

Of course, we all learned in school that every liquid has a vapour pressure above it, even if it is not boiling.  So theoretically, I can accept that the same can be true for a liquid metal...   but one thing is theory, another is measured real world behaviour?  I would expec the vapour pressure of a liquid metal to be vanishingly small.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 11, 2021, 09:55:53 pm

I did some reading, and it seems the rosin flux smoke is not good for you either, as well as the risk of lead content in the smoke due to the presence of lead oxides on the surface of the solder.   Lead free solder smoke is nearly as bad...   soldering for 15 mins exposes you to a whole day's allowance for several compounds.

Bottom line, an extractor is important for your health if you are doing more than very minimal soldering...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 12, 2021, 01:57:08 pm

I did some reading, and it seems the rosin flux smoke is not good for you either, as well as the risk of lead content in the smoke due to the presence of lead oxides on the surface of the solder.   Lead free solder smoke is nearly as bad...   soldering for 15 mins exposes you to a whole day's allowance for several compounds.

Bottom line, an extractor is important for your health if you are doing more than very minimal soldering...

Quote
Is there any references for that where I can learn more about it?
hehe there isnt yet because solder fume extractors and hepa lobby doesnt wanna tells you the truth , all this filtration units are signed as they remove up to 99,999% 0,3um dust particles while this dust inst exactly what is damage yours health

i did started with solder fume filters 5 year ago diy versions for past these years i did many experiments with them - and in short i can say about what is the most important to clean from soldering process:

- small particles of gas (formaldehydes toulenes phenols acids) + lead gas (not easy to clean by standard activated carbon)
-large paticles of dust ! -easy to clean by low MERV dust class filters F7 - F9

the hepa in these units in basic reality is just because "it is" this filters remove very small particles of dust which in these manufactory menanings are the most important particles to clean because they going to yours bloodstream and doing whorst of deffects "or can do in future" ;) but this is absolutely no truth and if we meaning there soldering process filtration and whats is exactly damaging you i list there:

-lead gas (not dust !)  cause symtopms like fevers metallic taste in mouth memory loss problems with concentration the lead particles have 0,2um - 0,5um wheres part is dust and other part is gas , if you wherent very allergic like me you propably wont fell  these deffects from lead soldering process but this gas really exist i did many experiments on carbon filters i mentioned about this in previous posts

all of these symptoms comming from lead gas , then where the hell is the "whorst" killing microparticles of dust cleaned by hepa ?! - just in hepa lobby fairy tales :)

-large particles of dust from solder cause usually cough (easy to clean by cheap F7 - F9 prefilters)

all above mentioned smallest particles of gas are hard to clean with standard activated carbons , they need speciall impregnated carbons with oxidisers or activated alumina threatted by kmno4 oxidiser - all these vapours of fluxes need this except suposedly lead gas

as about lead gas i found certain informations from google about what kind of carbon use municipal waste manufactories for clean heavy metals they use active cokes and what is so funny these active cokes are much more cheaper than activated carbon , while kmno4 alumina is much more expensiff

i am working on new filters these will include alumina kmno4 + activated carbon + active cokes they will be very silent by comparable to commerciall extractors + sucking less power + have better filters and soon on this forum i show my new project (but before that ill also check about is alumina kmno4 could remove lead gas effectivelly) and write there results

oh and i forget there about most important microparticles to clean - cleaned by hepa filters , in these lobby stories whats they cause or "could cause" in future is basically nothing !!! go search in google certain posts on HVAC forums about hepa filtration reality "its been confirmed about large particle dust cause much more health problems than smaller particles <0,3um" these smaller particles which can be absorbed by hepa could cause maybe 10 - 15 % symptoms by comapring to large dust particles and they offcourse "could" in future :)

i solder by using gas + dust filters except hepa for many year and i never fell any microparticles problems nor didnt fell any deffects after few years

in future means about - maybe i will die on another health issuess untill i even start felling deffects from <0,3um dust microparticles

and btw. i forget to add some of high-end commerciall filters have also included alumina balls threatted by kmno4 to use for laser fumes extraction because plastic or pvc are also small (part of gas) particles and activated carbon isnt enough to catch them all and clean

btw2 the hakko FA430 have less carbon than weller zero smog and thats why zero smog is better - in short nope.. the difference is as follow:

hakko FA430 have just activated granular carbon and can absorb only odours (and maybe 10 - 15% of small flux particles) while the weller zero smog uses pelletised carbon + pelletised carbon impregnated by kmno4 potassium permagnate known as puratex purafil also alumina balls uses same oxidiser and could remove all flux vapours (depending on how much of imregnated media contains these filters)

kmno4 is not easy to buy in small ammount across europe but easy to find+buy from china sellers
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 12, 2021, 02:34:23 pm
some of more informations from me

the chipquick smd291 flux and suposedly 491 is the one from many which doesnt need kmno4 to clean its vapours

its fumes can be easy cleaned by 1 - 2kg granular activated carbon , but however you will still facing problem with formaldehydes from solder tin and for this need oxidiser kmno4

the other flux i test (many of them i did test) all of them need oxidiser media such as alumina with kmno4 or impregnated carbons

maybe they have solder wire with smd291 for sale ? if yes then someone could use only smd291 flux + solder wire with 291 and would need only activated carbon filter + prefilter F7 - F9 class thats good idea :) , there also hakko fa430 fume extractor would be usefull in 100% :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 12, 2021, 05:25:51 pm
and ive forget

in soldering process we have also alcoholls (small particles) such as isopropylic alcoholl + alcoholls mixed into flux many of them depending on flux type so

the alcohols also is not easy remove by activated carbon for this can be used alumina with kmno4 or impregnated carbon with some oxidisers

the alumina impregnated with kmno4 is usually added to the carbon (mixed) in high-end expensiff filters and not easy to find/buy across europe in small ammount

there is one company who selling it in poland but they have just 6%  which is enough mainly for ethylene removal

you can buy it direct from china for example alibaba ask for 2 - 3kg samples for example there https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/kmno4-activated-alumina.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/kmno4-activated-alumina.html)

violet ceramic balls for formaldehyde removal (whorst to remove) need minimum 8 - 10  % for best even 12%

the % is how many ammount of kmno4 have one ball

i think 2kg of 10% kmno4 alumina would be enough to clean air from all alcoholls + formaldehydes and other smaller particles up to 300m3/h extractor speed , you need to mix it with activated carbon you should give no less than 50% of activated carbon

for example 50% of alumina and 50% activated pelletised carbon or if you wanna use activated coconut carbon you can give 40% of it and alumina 60% , but if you have larger filters you can give much more of activated carbon but no less

if you give less than 50% of carbon (by its weight) then you could fell eye irritation (pinching) caused by kmno4 , activated carbon reduce it when is mixed

so this setup is to remove almost all flux fumes

other cheaper fume extractors use impregnated carbons or catalitic to remove flux fumes (they are very hard to buy) but alumina give best results and have widest spectrum than these carbons

offcourse you can give more alumina for example 5kg the effect would be about yours filters will stand longer (much more longer than commerciall) + you can rise yours extraction speed even to 500m/3h !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: 2N3055 on February 12, 2021, 05:48:08 pm
Lead metal is stated to have a vapour pressure of 133 Pa at a temperature of 1000 °C.
Based on a volatilisation enthalpy of ∆Hvap = 177.9 kJ/mol, this vapour pressure can be recalculated with the aid of the Clausius-Clapeyron equation to a vapour pressure of 8.2 * 10-7 Pa at the melting temperature of lead (326°C).

Which means, unless you are soldering in vacuum, there are NO lead vapors when you are soldering. NONE. Science is non negotiable, don't care about opinions and is not defined by urban myths.

Only potential source of dangerous lead in electronics lab/workshop  is desoldering guns and desoldering vacuum pumps that can have quite fine solder dust in it.  Don't eat that, and thoroughly wash hands after cleaning those filters. Dispose of debris and used filters safely.

If you would need any HEPA filter for lead filtration, that would be one on the air exhaust of desoldering station.

Air filtration systems are there solely for purpose of removing flux vapours/smoke and connected chemicals/chemical byproducts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 12, 2021, 06:50:07 pm
Lead metal is stated to have a vapour pressure of 133 Pa at a temperature of 1000 °C.
Based on a volatilisation enthalpy of ∆Hvap = 177.9 kJ/mol, this vapour pressure can be recalculated with the aid of the Clausius-Clapeyron equation to a vapour pressure of 8.2 * 10-7 Pa at the melting temperature of lead (326°C).

Which means, unless you are soldering in vacuum, there are NO lead vapors when you are soldering. NONE. Science is non negotiable, don't care about opinions and is not defined by urban myths.

Only potential source of dangerous lead in electronics lab/workshop  is desoldering guns and desoldering vacuum pumps that can have quite fine solder dust in it.  Don't eat that, and thoroughly wash hands after cleaning those filters. Dispose of debris and used filters safely.

If you would need any HEPA filter for lead filtration, that would be one on the air exhaust of desoldering station.

Air filtration systems are there solely for purpose of removing flux vapours/smoke and connected chemicals/chemical byproducts.
another theory from google said - in 2006 year lead products have been removed from soldering manufactures to avoid workers exposing to lead fumes , tell me whats do you see on bga balls and solder paste stickers  - !!! WARNING !!! MAY CONTAIN LEAD HARMFULL IF SWALLOWED :)

btw. when you heating pcb on bga rework stations you suposedly generate dioxines and furanes - for cleaning air from these particles you need speciallised carbon or coks , there are some cokses and carbons directed to remove dioxines + furanes + heavy metals and these solder fume extractors for sure cant clean air from these gas particles
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 12, 2021, 06:53:34 pm

One of the articles I read stated that lead could get into the air due to oxides on the surface of the solder - so not really a vapor pressure issue (which I agree is not an issue).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 12, 2021, 07:24:02 pm

One of the articles I read stated that lead could get into the air due to oxides on the surface of the solder - so not really a vapor pressure issue (which I agree is not an issue).
right , but we are talking there about small ammount of lead gas from soldering process
and believe me even this small ammount is very hard to clean from air on activated carbon (granulated or coconut)
i did experiments and for example on 6kg of carbon i didnt fell nothing when i heat bga64 balls but when i heat more of lead in short time i starting felling it , so usuall activated carbon could absorb just small ammount of this vapour
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 12, 2021, 07:41:28 pm

One of the articles I read stated that lead could get into the air due to oxides on the surface of the solder - so not really a vapor pressure issue (which I agree is not an issue).
right , but we are talking there about small ammount of lead gas from soldering process  [...]

Yes, the lead gets into the air by help of the oxides on the surface, apparently.  So it isn't actually lead vaporizing (which doesn't happen), it is the oxides on the surface that react with the heat and can end up airborne.   The problem is still the same - bad stuff in the air!

And all the other things, including smoke from rosin solder, are also bad for you.

I am lucky in not being allergic to any of that, but I still have the good sense (like most engineers, I'm sure) to avoid breathing this stuff in, as far as practically possible.


Quote
and believe me even this small ammount is very hard to clean from air on activated carbon (granulated or coconut)
i did experiments and for example on 6kg of carbon i didnt fell nothing when i heat bga64 balls but when i heat more of lead in short time i starting felling it , so usuall activated carbon could absorb just small ammount of this vapour

Yes, once we get to the molecular level of cleaning, things begin to get challenging! :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: thm_w on February 12, 2021, 09:18:58 pm
Can we get a citation for lead oxide producing lead gas at <400C temperatures please?

Mention of solder fumes containing Pb, but no mentioned how they were generated: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/)
This one involves liquids which directly contact the vaporizing coil at ~250C: https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/study-lead-and-other-toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapors.html (https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/study-lead-and-other-toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapors.html)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: 2N3055 on February 12, 2021, 09:48:05 pm

One of the articles I read stated that lead could get into the air due to oxides on the surface of the solder - so not really a vapor pressure issue (which I agree is not an issue).
right , but we are talking there about small ammount of lead gas from soldering process
and believe me even this small ammount is very hard to clean from air on activated carbon (granulated or coconut)
i did experiments and for example on 6kg of carbon i didnt fell nothing when i heat bga64 balls but when i heat more of lead in short time i starting felling it , so usuall activated carbon could absorb just small ammount of this vapour

My answer to that is :

Lead metal is stated to have a vapour pressure of 133 Pa at a temperature of 1000 °C.
Based on a volatilisation enthalpy of ∆Hvap = 177.9 kJ/mol, this vapour pressure can be recalculated with the aid of the Clausius-Clapeyron equation to a vapour pressure of 8.2 * 10-7 Pa at the melting temperature of lead (326°C).

Which means, unless you are soldering in vacuum, there are NO lead vapors when you are soldering. NONE. Science is non negotiable, don't care about opinions and is not defined by urban myths.

Keep reading that over and over.. Until it sinks in....

Only lead that can be harmful is one that is fine dust and can get airborne or ingested by food or fluid intake.
Also, potentially, nanoparticle lead could be absorbed via skin. But that would have to be specially produced material...
That includes lead compounds that it can create with other chemicals..
Many lead compounds and alloys are less toxic than lead alone too.. Some are more ....

So no, don't eat lead, it's not good for  you. But there is no lead evaporation while soldering... No metallic lead fumes.





Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 12, 2021, 09:59:28 pm
Can we get a citation for lead oxide producing lead gas at <400C temperatures please?

Mention of solder fumes containing Pb, but no mentioned how they were generated: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/)
This one involves liquids which directly contact the vaporizing coil at ~250C: https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/study-lead-and-other-toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapors.html (https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/study-lead-and-other-toxic-metals-found-in-e-cigarette-vapors.html)

I can't find the article I was looking at, but the lead oxide thing was mentioned in a few places.

I just stumbled over an interesting article that does establish that Pb and Sn fumes exist in the air after melting solder:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/#B10 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3652541/#B10)

The concentrations of solder fumes were 0.193 mg/ m3, 0.35 mg/m3 and 3 mg/m3 and for formaldehyde, Sn and Pb, respectively. All measurements were obtained in accordance with methods described by the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (ASTM, D4185-90, NIOSH 3500 and OSHA 206) using a visible absorption spectrophotometer (Spectronic 20D, Milton Ray, Belgium) and atomic absorption spectrophotometer (ATI/Unicam, 929, USA) (14-16). The soldering wire (alloy 63/67, 0.8 mm diameter, Jarfe Company, Iran) was commercially available.

Looks like we stumbled on the same article! -  At least it seems our testes are safe! :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: thm_w on February 12, 2021, 11:30:38 pm
Good they were using commercial solder.
But they keep referring to welding, "Fumes generated during metal welding have toxic effects on the human body. ". Not sure if that is a translation issue or they specifically mean high temperature welding.


Heres one where they sampled the air and got much less than 3mg/m3 (although the plant may have adequate filtration).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12701538/

Quote
The study group included workers of three plants manufacturing electronic systems, household equipment and electric motors. Membrane filters were used to collect 50 air samples, including personal 8-h samples to assess average weighed concentration of soldering and brazing fumes and their elements, and to assay respirable dust and "background" or "area" samples.

The quantitative analysis revealed that time-weighed average (TWA) of fume concentrations were: soldering fume < 0.5-1.1 mg/m3, Cu < 0.003-0.034 mg/m3, Pb < 0.014-0.037 mg/m3, Sn < 0.15 mg/m3, Sb < 0.035 mg/m3; brazing fume < 0.5-0.8 mg/m3, Cu < 0.003-0.038 mg/m3, Zn < 0.003-0.025 mg/m3, Pb < 0.014-0.023 mg/m3, Ag < 0.014 mg/m3, Sn < 0.15 mg/m3, Mn < 0.07-0.12 mg/m3.


Maybe something was measured here, same sort of low ug range:

Quote
Fume concentrations were determined by collection on a membrane filter and analysis by atomic absorption spectrophotometry. Samples were obtained for alloy temperatures of 200 degrees, 400 degrees, and 600 degrees F. In all instances, concentrations were much lower than the applicable occupational limits for continuous exposure.
Lead and cadmium are  the most toxic. Lead and lead oxide enter the body via ingestion, inhalation, and by skin absorption.
Air concentrations were not measured by these investigators, who stressed that the temperatures reached with a  soldering iron, while high, were probably still below the melting temperatures of the component metals (Table 1). However, a cadmium concentration of 16.8 pg/m3 was obtained over a soldering iron (operating temperature unspecified) by others.

Three of 16 air samples for metals resulted in detectable levels of Pb and/or Cd. A personal samples contained 2.06ug/m3 Pb and 1.49ug/m3 Cd. A sample taken over a melting pot showed a Pb level of 46.9ug/m3 and a Cd level of 18.7ug/m3 (visible metal fragments).
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7207418/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3785004/
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 13, 2021, 07:42:52 am
one time in past i did find some informations from weller company measurments cant find them anymore

they claiming about they use hepa filters in they solder fume extractors from 2 reasons

-solder flux fumes microparticles dust
-lead fumes microparticles dust

the hepa filters are recommended by OSHA everywhere where there is lead and kadmium in use

metallic taste in mouth is main proof about lead gas evaporate from leadded solder wire and i dont understand why nobody there did not make simply tests by inhalling both leadded and lead-free solder wires instead of that researching informations from some articles

some of them said yes and some of them said not

the main difference beetwen lead-free/leadded solder wire is about you didnt fell metallic taste from lead-free solder wire so for me this is enough proof of lead gas evaporation from leadded tin , except other symptoms getting while inhalling it but okay someone else maybe wont fell these symptoms or maybe will fellling after 20 years of solder but for sure you will fell this metallic taste in mouth
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 13, 2021, 03:28:17 pm
one time in past i did find some informations from weller company measurments cant find them anymore

they claiming about they use hepa filters in they solder fume extractors from 2 reasons

-solder flux fumes microparticles dust
-lead fumes microparticles dust

the hepa filters are recommended by OSHA everywhere where there is lead and kadmium in use

metallic taste in mouth is main proof about lead gas evaporate from leadded solder wire and i dont understand why nobody there did not make simply tests by inhalling both leadded and lead-free solder wires instead of that researching informations from some articles

some of them said yes and some of them said not

the main difference beetwen lead-free/leadded solder wire is about you didnt fell metallic taste from lead-free solder wire so for me this is enough proof of lead gas evaporation from leadded tin , except other symptoms getting while inhalling it but okay someone else maybe wont fell these symptoms or maybe will fellling after 20 years of solder but for sure you will fell this metallic taste in mouth

Other metals also end up in the air, not just lead?  -  probably best to get rid of all of it...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 13, 2021, 09:13:01 pm
one time in past i did find some informations from weller company measurments cant find them anymore

they claiming about they use hepa filters in they solder fume extractors from 2 reasons

-solder flux fumes microparticles dust
-lead fumes microparticles dust

the hepa filters are recommended by OSHA everywhere where there is lead and kadmium in use

metallic taste in mouth is main proof about lead gas evaporate from leadded solder wire and i dont understand why nobody there did not make simply tests by inhalling both leadded and lead-free solder wires instead of that researching informations from some articles

some of them said yes and some of them said not

the main difference beetwen lead-free/leadded solder wire is about you didnt fell metallic taste from lead-free solder wire so for me this is enough proof of lead gas evaporation from leadded tin , except other symptoms getting while inhalling it but okay someone else maybe wont fell these symptoms or maybe will fellling after 20 years of solder but for sure you will fell this metallic taste in mouth

Other metals also end up in the air, not just lead?  -  probably best to get rid of all of it...
hehe
no it is not in short the other metals evaporated from lead free solder arent toxic like lead

everyone who is interessted the molecular sieve type 3A should absorb lead gas - why ? because lead molecular weight is 2,xx , while molecular weight of formaldehyde is 3,xxx < for it fitting sieve 4A but molecular sieves are irritant (even if you mix it with activated carbon) but these much cheaper solution than activated alumina with kmno4

but thats not the end of lead gas story

looks like also activated alumina could adsorb lead gas (its porous structure) so for lead gas we should use activated alumina AL2O3 or AL203 + KMNO4 will works too

the difference beetwen AL203 + KMNO4 than AL203 itself is when this media is impregnated by oxidiser propably loose part of its pore structure and in this form is directed for formaledhyde + alcoholls and similiar vapours removal

but however AL203 standalone is much more cheaper than AL203 + KMNO4 so i need to try it and check

if this media will works ( AL203 or AL203 + KMNO4) my problem with leadded soldering will be solved and i in short i can back to lead soldering because i have enough lead-free soldering from since 4 - 5 years :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 13, 2021, 10:12:50 pm

Yes, you can't beat the qualities of lead in the solder, if you disregard the other aspects! :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: 2N3055 on February 13, 2021, 11:12:24 pm
Metallic taste in you mouth comes from ions... From flux..... :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 14, 2021, 12:17:27 am
Metallic taste in you mouth comes from ions... From flux..... :-+

Nothing like a nice apéritif!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on February 14, 2021, 07:29:34 am
Metallic taste in you mouth comes from ions... From flux..... :-+
i recommend you to buy 2 solder wires leadded and lead-free (with same flux tbh) from same manufacturer and compare , if you saying about this is flux case because i using many flux and ive never fell metallic taste
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Bud on February 14, 2021, 07:35:14 am
This may be related to personal hypersensitivity to particular substances. When i worked in the office i clearly smelled air freshener or detergent smell coming out of the ventilation vents in the room, but noone else did when i asked them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: thm_w on February 16, 2021, 09:59:37 pm
Metallic taste in you mouth comes from ions... From flux..... :-+

I mean he would be right, IF you had lead poisoning:

"Very high levels of lead in the blood may cause personality changes, headaches, loss of sensation, weakness, a metallic taste in the mouth, uncoordinated walking, digestive problems, and anemia. "
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/injuries-and-poisoning/poisoning/lead-poisoning (https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/injuries-and-poisoning/poisoning/lead-poisoning)

But that seems unlikely, definitely not something I've experienced. If you do, go to the doctor immediately and get a blood test for lead IMO.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on February 17, 2021, 02:39:32 am

Interestingly, it seems you can get quite ill from inhaling metal fumes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: Zai Kajou on March 14, 2021, 09:17:06 am
  Just watched the video for this particular fume extractor, and noticed someone found the filters for it as well, just have to message and deal with the company direct I think was said.

So just curious if this was still the way to go, or does anyone have an opinion on the Quick 6101A1 extractor (does seem to be a 3 stage and I'm sure filters are easier to buy)? I've seen it for sale for under 500$ with the tube, unfortunately I don't have the space to have a good setup, so I need some kind of extractor before I do anything, even minor stuff, and from what I've seen/read anything is better than nothing at all, just curious if anyone had any opinions on anything recently, as the companies site from the review no longer even lists that particular model, only saw it on Alibaba, and by the time you pay for the extractor and shipping the quick seems to be much cheaper.

Just thought I'd see what the thoughts on that are.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: SilverSolder on March 14, 2021, 03:51:33 pm
  Just watched the video for this particular fume extractor, and noticed someone found the filters for it as well, just have to message and deal with the company direct I think was said.

So just curious if this was still the way to go, or does anyone have an opinion on the Quick 6101A1 extractor (does seem to be a 3 stage and I'm sure filters are easier to buy)? I've seen it for sale for under 500$ with the tube, unfortunately I don't have the space to have a good setup, so I need some kind of extractor before I do anything, even minor stuff, and from what I've seen/read anything is better than nothing at all, just curious if anyone had any opinions on anything recently, as the companies site from the review no longer even lists that particular model, only saw it on Alibaba, and by the time you pay for the extractor and shipping the quick seems to be much cheaper.

Just thought I'd see what the thoughts on that are.

A simple solution, if you don't solder very often and don't have a big budget for fume extraction, is to rig up a little fan on a "helping hand" stand - just place it so it blows the fumes away from your face. 

Any old fan (from a PC or whatever... most of us have one lying around)  will do.  For bonus point, add a small speed controller to the fan (eBay, $<very little>).

You could add a carbon filter to the fan, but I don't even bother with that...  open a window, fan on low, good to go.

This idea works because normally, the fumes are attracted to your face due to convection air currents around your head due to your body temperature.  So by just blowing them in a different direction, you inhale much less of it, and it doesn't get in your eyes.  Works for me!  :D

Why does smoke from a soldering iron ALWAYS go towards your face???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRgzJaB3D4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exRgzJaB3D4)




Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: unkown_h on March 17, 2021, 01:19:27 am
Has anyone looked into welding respirator and respirator filters in general. I would think that you would able to find ether a readily available filter or a combination of 2 that would do the trick.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: thmjpr on March 17, 2021, 04:09:05 am
Has anyone looked into welding respirator and respirator filters in general. I would think that you would able to find ether a readily available filter or a combination of 2 that would do the trick.

Sure those would work, but why? You can buy P100 respirator filters that are not specific to welding, that would be cheaper.
Wearing a respirator when soldering would be super uncomfortable as well.

Generally welding gear prices >> soldering gear prices.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: lfldp on March 21, 2021, 12:17:09 pm
  Just watched the video for this particular fume extractor, and noticed someone found the filters for it as well, just have to message and deal with the company direct I think was said.

So just curious if this was still the way to go, or does anyone have an opinion on the Quick 6101A1 extractor (does seem to be a 3 stage and I'm sure filters are easier to buy)? I've seen it for sale for under 500$ with the tube, unfortunately I don't have the space to have a good setup, so I need some kind of extractor before I do anything, even minor stuff, and from what I've seen/read anything is better than nothing at all, just curious if anyone had any opinions on anything recently, as the companies site from the review no longer even lists that particular model, only saw it on Alibaba, and by the time you pay for the extractor and shipping the quick seems to be much cheaper.

Just thought I'd see what the thoughts on that are.
few tips i can say there

is not worth to paying for quick 6101A because you have many cloned chinese fume extractors with cheaper price available to buy and i am sure they uses same quality filters in short
-prefilter
-hepa h13
-gas filter (filter out 85% of gas particles) 

clones such as waterun f6100 and others use same filters and these filters have bituminous coal activated carbon impregnated with potassium iodide KI (i am sure quick use same carbon)

for example in last days i buyed one clone link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhf-nBHTW4&ab_channel=lfldpe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEhf-nBHTW4&ab_channel=lfldpe) that BEST BST-495 and have also same efficient gas filter here you have video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0hM_cps_Fg&ab_channel=lfldp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0hM_cps_Fg&ab_channel=lfldp)

this fume extractor cost me half price of quick 6101a and also its replacement filters cost half price , i didnt smell any colophony outgoing from this fume extractor (could fell some % of solder fluxes) but this is very small ammount and doesnt irritiate also heavy metal gas from solder wire is reduced alot

in more expensiff fume extractors like for example bofa v300e you have activated carbon + activated alumina impregnated with kmno4 literature claim about kmno4 have wider range of various gas particles removal than potassium iodide

but in reality i dont believe about this bofa v300e gas filters could remove 100% of gas vapours

what means wider range ? in short it doesnt means about bofa v300e filters would clean you 100% air from gas it just meant about its filter could clean air from more different particles > could clean air from more brand of fluxes than other fume extractors
Title: Re: EEVblog #1305 - HEPA Solder Fume Extractor
Post by: bifferos on June 26, 2021, 10:45:22 am
I've been watching this thread for a while, but from the UK it's hard to figure out what to purchase.  With shipping to UK the KS-180 isn't quite the deal it's made out to be in the video.  There are three shipping choiced on Alibaba starting at $333 dollars and going up.  Some options I looked at are:

quick 6101A
Can't seem to find any suppliers in the UK

Hakko FA-430  £952
https://www.hakko.co.uk/product/fa-430-hepa-compact-fume-extraction-unit/ (https://www.hakko.co.uk/product/fa-430-hepa-compact-fume-extraction-unit/)

Weller £637  (Rapidonline) 
https://www.rapidonline.com/weller-ft91012699n-zero-smog-el-fume-extractor-kit-1-85-5793 (https://www.rapidonline.com/weller-ft91012699n-zero-smog-el-fume-extractor-kit-1-85-5793)

KS-180 via alibaba   £400 (TAX on top?)
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Kingsom-Nail-Suction-Dust-Collector_62409199915.html (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Kingsom-Nail-Suction-Dust-Collector_62409199915.html)

TBK, KS-180 clone, no casters?    £299    99.2% feedback
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265004714683 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265004714683)

Similar looking clone, no casters  £264     99.5% feedback
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164072572080 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164072572080)

Fumego Clone with casters  £357
Fumego seem to be a slightly more 'up market' rebranding of KS-180 but maybe up market just means more expensive!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113968716122 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113968716122)

Just wondering if there's anyone else from the UK, what they ended up with, how they decided, I'm tempted to go for the Weller and be done with it, because I have a weller soldering iron from two decades ago and I can still get tips for it.  It sounds like it will do the job and I'll still be able to get parts in the future.  OTOH, I have an ERSA soldering iron, so the ERSA fume extraction would be nice, but it's stupidly expensive and I imagine the spare filters would also be similarly stupidly expensive.

Thanks!