EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on July 05, 2020, 06:12:37 am
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$140 for a 2CH 100MHz 1GS/s tablet oscilloscope?
Review of the $140 FNIRSI-1013D 2CH 100MHz 1GS/s tablet oscilloscope.
Is it too good to be true?
Fnirsi Aliexpress Store: http://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_d8nfjVK (http://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_d8nfjVK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iwtDwJlbWk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iwtDwJlbWk)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50074405786_e4241c1dcd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jhUqgU)FNIRSI 1013D Portable Tablet Oscilloscope PCB (https://flic.kr/p/2jhUqgU) by Dave Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/), on Flickr
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Any idea on the 2 LED's, I would guess the red is to indicate USB charge, and the green is for fully charged battery, as there is nothing reallt visible on the PCB there other than the charge controller and battery manager.
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This thing + attenuator + ignition probe could be useful as a cheap automotive oscilloscope.
Alexander.
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hello
sorry for my bad english and long post!!!
this o'scope has been in my list since released date. I even enquire about it in some thread here and one member promised to do a review after getting his hands on it....
for starters i am a complete noob. Although I have an electronics degree, but after degree I went to the service side of things where electrical and mechanical skill were required, so i have forgotten many electronics related skills etc, although i am picking up interest in electronics again.
now, i did not have an o'scope. and my interest is still in early stages so i do not want to burn some 6 to700 bucks for a micsig( with knobs). Yes, i know about rigol and siglent but micsig is battery powered and there is a lot of power issues at my place so.
i was thinking, is it useful for a hobbyist like me. even if it is useful for mare 10 mhz only. :blah: :blah:
can i measure some basic ckts with it like voltage reg, op-amp, and those educational ckts which is in my electronics devices book??
:popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looks like it is sold under other names here in the UK. Listed on Amazon as KKmoon. https://www.amazon.co.uk/KKmoon-ADS1013D-Oscilloscope-Touching-Oscilloscopes/dp/B086V7PHJF/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=oscilloscope&qid=1593956887&sr=8-6 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/KKmoon-ADS1013D-Oscilloscope-Touching-Oscilloscopes/dp/B086V7PHJF/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=oscilloscope&qid=1593956887&sr=8-6)
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The main soc is All Winner is F1C100s which is an ARM ARM926EJ-S core running at 533MHz, the same SOC is used in LicheePi Nano and the same SOC that somebody used to make a Linux bussniess card https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2019/12/my-business-card-runs-linux/. (https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2019/12/my-business-card-runs-linux/.) Its very cheap, 1.5$ a pop and there is a significant info about it online.
If the SD card does not have the main OS image, it can be easily hacked to contain it, the pirmary bootloader and maybe tiny os on the winbound eeprom. It can be easily flashed with Uboot and made to read a linux image from the SD card.
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If I have not missed anything then they are missing sample memory, because what is in fpga is only 270Kb ~ 34KB and it is not enough for 240Ksample.
Sure, the ARM CPU has access to DDR1 SIP memory but not FPGA.
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It would be so interesting to see a manufacturer open up and publish the firmware for a device like this. It would be an interesting see if it kills the production run or has the effect of pushing sales.
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I would rather spend 140bucks for an old used one than on this piece.
So it seems that the tablet scopes from micsig are the only affordable ones who worked well.
No, must correct myself, it seems they´re the ONLY one who offers tablet scopes... ???
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I was thinking more along the lines of what could you use this for. Educational scopes are rare, same with automotive and so on. A purpose made interface that limits features or adds others is interesting to me.
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I would rather spend 140bucks for an old used one than on this piece.
So it seems that the tablet scopes from micsig are the only affordable ones who worked well.
No, must correct myself, it seems they´re the ONLY one who offers tablet scopes... ???
2Channels and no memory, nice toy with no use.
Would get a HP 54621A/D, HP 54622A/D or HP 54645A for that money. Old but still somewhat usable for simple things, compared to this toy. At least they have deep memory and mixed signal capability in D version.
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i was thinking, is it useful for a hobbyist like me. even if it is useful for mare 10 mhz only. :blah: :blah:
can i measure some basic ckts with it like voltage reg, op-amp, and those educational ckts which is in my electronics devices book??
Sure it's useful, just expect a few issues with it. others have reported triggering problems under various conditions, but haven't checked that myself yet.
As I said in the video, perhaps a Hantek USB scope is better value, and cheaper.
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2Channels and no memory, nice toy with no use.
240k memory is hardly "no memory". Shame you just can't scroll through it in detail.
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If I have not missed anything then they are missing sample memory, because what is in fpga is only 270Kb ~ 34KB and it is not enough for 240Ksample.
Sure, the ARM CPU has access to DDR1 SIP memory but not FPGA.
I didn't even think to check that. >:(
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If I have not missed anything then they are missing sample memory, because what is in fpga is only 270Kb ~ 34KB and it is not enough for 240Ksample.
Sure, the ARM CPU has access to DDR1 SIP memory but not FPGA.
What is the bandwidth between the FPGA and ARM? Perhaps a replacement firmware will allow use of the entire available RAM at lower sample rates.
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FPGA and CPU are connected using GPIOE 12bit port so do not expect huge bandwidth.
I used ARM926 core in custom ASIC around 2007. When you load internal memory with graphic you can expect performances of low-end smartwatch.
On manual is written 240kpoint like bits not like samples. So one can expect ~30k samples.
My opinion is that this hardware is not worth to be open-sourced and used for scope development.
Raspberry pi + (FPGA + ADC card ) extension card will be much more worth spending time on.
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I have bought this scope mainly because I needed one and this one runs Linux (yay!), and I can customize the firmware if other people is willing to help.
As ace1903 said, the FPGA is connected to the main SOC via a 12bit port, but they are only using 11 of those bits (as far as I can tell from the high-res pictures posted by Dave), so that limits the bandwidth even more. I don't think this will be a problem when using only 1 channel, but when using both it will be a bottle-neck for sure.
Can anyone dump the SPI flash (containing the firmware) so that we can start analyzing it?
Thanks!
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EP4CE6 == EP4CE10
they have the same die, So it have 50kByte FPGA RAM
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EP4CE6 == EP4CE10
they have the same die, So it have 50kByte FPGA RAM
The datasheet says 270Kbits... (Table 1-1)
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/cyiv-51001.pdf (https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/cyiv-51001.pdf)
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So only ~38k bytes?
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So only ~38k bytes?
33.75 KBytes, yes :-\
If only using 1 channel, that would be 0.16875ms storage at 200MSPS (unless I'm missing something here).
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itis a trick，the datasheet willnot tell you
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itis a trick，the datasheet willnot tell you
Wow, and how do you take advantage of it? I know something similar happened with the flash memory in STM32F103C8T6 MCUs...
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I did an IC Identification based on the image attached to the original post.
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i was thinking, is it useful for a hobbyist like me. even if it is useful for mare 10 mhz only. :blah: :blah:
can i measure some basic ckts with it like voltage reg, op-amp, and those educational ckts which is in my electronics devices book??
Sure it's useful, just expect a few issues with it. others have reported triggering problems under various conditions, but haven't checked that myself yet.
As I said in the video, perhaps a Hantek USB scope is better value, and cheaper.
I just bought one of these scopes and whilst it's not perfect I do find that I use it when the other scopes are tied up. Because it is portable and easy on the battery it is a great portable scope I can throw in the car anytime. Much cheaper than buying a battery for the TDS3000 ;) Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off.
cheers
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Just ordered one.
Should be handy for basic stuff, but the portability is the main reason for the purchase.
Now to see if it is hackable...
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I must confess, although this thing is nothing more than a toy, it makes me curious.
After all, they got a support area on their Homepage (http://www.fnirsi.cn/).
Maybe, firmware updates will be avaible sometimes.
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I'm planning on rewriting the firmware, adding more features like I2C or UART decoding, and maybe even giving access to a Linux desktop!
I'd need access to the winbond SPI flash contents. That's where the firmware is stored (U-Boot, Linux Kernel and app). If anyone can dump it and post it, it would be great. If not, I will have to wait until I receive mine.
Thanks!
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hello @iscle
i did not have it but if I did I would certainly do that as I am also interested in a new firmware.
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hello @iscle
i did not have it but if I did I would certainly do that as I am also interested in a new firmware.
My plan is to improve the UI by building a brand new one with Qt, and also providing more ways of controlling the FPGA (and the ADCs), being able to set the sampling rate and more. For that, the FPGA will need new code too, which I'm looking into (I only know a bit of VHDL when I did some university assignments three years ago).
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Just for fun I´ve ordered one now, should arrive on monday. ;)
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Max sensitivity of 50mV/div is a crippling limitation.....at least 10x less sensitive than most other basic scopes. ::)
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For those who want to turn off the auto triggering level in AUTO trig mode the setting is buried away in the system menu of all places. They should have put it in the trigger menu |O
cheers
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For those who want to turn off the auto triggering level in AUTO trig mode the setting is buried away in the system menu of all places. They should have put it in the trigger menu |O
You only need to turn it off once.
Over in the other thread it's been noted that if you use a x1 probe then pretty much all the problems disappear due to the extra capacitance. You're limited to about 30MHz, sure, but all the artifacts disappear.
I think it would be cool to find the optimum capacitance to maximize bandwidth, solder a capacitor of that size into the front end, go back to using x10 probes.
This simple mod would mean you can rely a lot more on what's being shown on screen being correct. Anybody up for doing it? (I don't have one of these yet, so...)
Maybe there's a 'hacking the Fnirsi Tablet Oscilloscope" video in this for Dave.
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Max sensitivity of 50mV/div is a crippling limitation....
Not for an awful lot of scenarios, it isn't.
Yeah, we know, we should all buy Siglents instead.
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Max sensitivity of 50mV/div is a crippling limitation....
Not for an awful lot of scenarios, it isn't.
Yeah, we know, we should all buy Siglents instead.
FFS get real Fungus !
Put a 10x probe on the POS and you're limited to 500mV/div max sensitivity which in the real world (maybe not yours) is seriously limiting.
Really what planet are you on ? :-//
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FFS get real Fungus !
Put a 10x probe on the POS and you're limited to 500mV/div max sensitivity which in the real world (maybe not yours) is seriously limiting.
Really what planet are you on ? :-//
Oh, I forgot about that. OK, 1x probes it is. :-)
Has anybody measured the -3db point with 1x probes? I can't find it in either of the threads.
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Can do it in the next hours.
Two threads parallel...which will "win" 8)
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Can do it in the next hours.
Two threads parallel...which will "win" 8)
The other thread is busy dumping the firmware... :popcorn:
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In 1x probes alone will have 5-10 MHz bandwidth.. Scope's bandwidth of 1X/10X probes is rated at 10x
So for best bandwidth you need to put probes in 10X..
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Can do it in the next hours.
Two threads parallel...which will "win" 8)
The other thread is busy dumping the firmware... :popcorn:
Edit: No, they won. It's over 30Mhz. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1013d-100mhz-tablet-oscilloscope/msg3143524/#msg3143524)
No, scratch that. That measurement was with "alligator clips" so it won't have the capacitance of a 1x probe.
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Hopefully they will offer some firmware upgrades and allow the auto triggering level detection to be switched on or off.
You mean this?
[attachimg=1]
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Is this usable to make floating measurements?
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Is this usable to make floating measurements?
It only does floating measurements when it's on battery power. :)
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Battery power should be OK, here is what I am having in mind.
In many old 20MHz CROs, there is electrostatic CRT and the cathode is driven at around -2KV DC, whereas a lot of the driving signals has differential voltage of 20 V DC or less.
Measuring that with an oscilloscope referenced to ground will produce a big bang or at best the GFCI will trigger.
A 2KV to ground (common mode range) differential probe is a rare and expensive device.
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Battery power should be OK, here is what I am having in mind.
In many old 20MHz CROs, there is electrostatic CRT and the cathode is driven at around -2KV DC, whereas a lot of the driving signals has differential voltage of 20 V DC or less.
Measuring that with an oscilloscope referenced to ground will produce a big bang or at best the GFCI will trigger.
A 2KV to ground (common mode range) differential probe is a rare and expensive device.
230€
Micsig DP20003 100MHz
Maximum Differential Test Voltage（DC+AC PK-PK） 560 V （200 X）/ 5600 V （2000 X）
Maximum input common mode voltage（DC+AC PK-PK） 560 V （200 X）/ 5600 V （2000 X）
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Thanks for the hint!
However, the specs state.
Maximum input common mode voltage: CAT II 1000V
Isn't that unsuatable for differential rails that are 2KV referenced to ground?
Otherwise, not that this is a cheap probe 230 EUR - but is somewhat acceptable comparead to thousands of EURO.
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Thanks for the hint!
However, the specs state.
Maximum input common mode voltage: CAT II 1000V
Isn't that unsuatable for differential rails that are 2KV referenced to ground?
Otherwise, not that this is a cheap probe 230 EUR - but is somewhat acceptable comparead to thousands of EURO.
No not cheap, but affordable. and decent qualitiy.
CAT II 1000V is referring to protection when working on higher energy circuits. For your use 5600 V P-P max apply..
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I just re-watched Dave's review of this 'scope. His conclusions are spot on. If you call it a 200MS/sec/channel 'scope (assuming they are actually gathering data using an out of phase clock per channel) it is not a bad 'scope for the price. If they could fix some of the software/UI issues this would be a really decent 'scope for the money !
Sadly, I don't expect any firmware upgrades, at least in the near future.
There are ADC that can do 1GS/sec in a similar price range as the ADC9288 but how how good is that front end ? Of course they are probably using a clone that they can get for a few pennies.
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Hello Friends,
I am interested in redoing UI with QT if firmware is usable.
Besides I order one but received with Chinese language, I talk to supplier then they said can't change language, I also ask to provide firmware to upgrade but they can't, Can any one please help me to provide dd image of English version sd card ?
Thanks
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Just for fun I´ve ordered one now, should arrive on monday. ;)
you got it from ware house Hamburg, germany.
They have send you also one where the charger is a NEMA type for us plugs? ;)
[attachimg=1]
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Hi,
No... ;)
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Block Diagram and IC Identification attached.
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I'm planning on rewriting the firmware, adding more features like I2C or UART decoding, and maybe even giving access to a Linux desktop!
I'd need access to the winbond SPI flash contents. That's where the firmware is stored (U-Boot, Linux Kernel and app). If anyone can dump it and post it, it would be great. If not, I will have to wait until I receive mine.
Thanks!
Have you made any progress? I just ordered one to use as a waveform monitor. They claim FFT but no screenshots. I do home its in the firmware and reasonably useable. At least through Amazon the return is easy.
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They claim FFT but no screenshots. I do home its in the firmware and reasonably useable. At least through Amazon the return is easy.
It definitely has FFT.
https://youtu.be/EToBC3_FtOs?t=103
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I received mine today. One day service from Amazon which was quite impressive. Its all working and looks to meet my needs- waveform display for outputs of a distortion analyzer. I found the FFT and its not particularly useful but at least its something. The autoset seems to work well for this.
I will check its response etc. soon. Of course the label on the front does not match the splash screen or what the Amazon listing indicated. I have not found a reference to a firmware rev level yet. However at this price I can't be too picky. Now I need to find new homes for two Tek scopes.
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I got one too. Looks nice and responsive at first glance, but it doesn’t seem to work as it should.
At the time it arrived I was playing with a new rotary encoder (optimizing the denouncing parameters in my code) and thought I should check what the pulses look like on the new little scope. I could not imagine a less demanding job to test it: trigger mode “Normal” on the falling edge, slow time base (2-50 ms/div), to assess the switching noise.
I noticed that at time bases longer than 10 ms/div, the green trigger threshold level and trigger x-position markers simply disappear off the screen and the trace does not seem to synchronize anymore (it still triggers). The only way to get the markers back (and have a stable wave on the screen) is by switching the time base back to 10 ms/div (or faster). The issue is easy to reproduce with a 20 Hz square wave in “Auto” or “Normal” trigger modes. Is this “normal” behavior for these scopes or is it mine particularly defective?
Also, as a bonus, the switching noise is almost gone when checked on this scope...