EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[nctnico]

@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.

It is a Ford.   Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE.  Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).

OK, That is interesting to know. I'm planning to get a hybrid as a next car (hydrogen isn't off the table though but needs some serious investigation first).

[Gyro]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

[EEVblog]

The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

As I mentioned, as tested in my EV, I got 1kWh/100km consumption coming back down the mountain from Blackheath to Penrith. Normal around city is an order of magnitude higher at 10-11kWh/100km. And I wasn't being frugal, driving it in Normal mode not Eco. And as you mentioned, lot's of up's and down, lights etc, it's not just a cannonball downhill run.
This means that in practice I could have left Blackheath with 40km of range left and still made the 95km trip back to Baulkham Hills, because the part down the mountain used almost zero net energy, leaving that 40km of range for the flat drive back home.

[NiHaoMike]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

[coppice]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

Is there much point in making a full hybrid car if it doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine? If you are adding electrics to a conventional gas or diesel engine, I would think its more cost effective to just implement a 48V mild hybrid style KERS, like Volvo added to most of its cars this year.

[SilverSolder]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").

[Ed.Kloonk]

Not forgetting the cars that switch off the engine at the lights. Which, of course, is an abomination.

 

[coppice]

Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

I think this is at least in part because last year, the Kona was one of the most desirable EVs around because of the long range and great reviews, hence the wait. 
Then a whole load of other new EVs started appearing, some with shorter leadtimes,  including the Tesla model 3, so as well as some Kona preorders getting cancelled, there was a lot more competition. I think production also increased when they opened a new factory in the Czech Republic.

[nctnico]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").

If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.

[coppice]

Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.

A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").

If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.

Why would you expect any of the other Atkinson based hybrids to be any different? When the Atkinson engine isn't supported by electric torque and power where you think a sudden surge for acceleration is going to come from?

[nctnico]

Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.

Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.

New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.

[SilverSolder]

Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor...  I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.

I like Ford for economical long term car ownership.  When I take my old Ford to the dealer for its 10K mile services, it usually costs around $30 - $40 depending on how many filters etc. they feel like changing.   Try that with pretty much any other car marque? A good friend of mine has a BMW 5 series of a similar age, it never costs less than $600 for a service, it leaks oil like a sieve, and burns a quart between oil changes - but it does handle like a dream and does not look cheap inside.  Horses for courses?

[coppice]

Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.

From your info I assume you are describing how things work in Australia. I did say that I think the pre-registered car thing is particularly a UK thing. In the UK dealer demo cars are frequently registered with the dealer being the owner. If you drive one of their cars with a staff member in the car you will drive it with special licence plates, called trade plates, on the car. The dealer's overall insurance covers you and them under these circumstances. If the dealer lets you have a demonstrator for longer, to drive on your own, they will give you a registered car under conditions that are basically a short term rental, for which no fee is charged. They have to have demonstrators of all the cars they offer. Who would buy a car without trying one? The pre-registered cars are registered with the dealer as the owner. When you buy one of these you are buying a second hand, but unused, car.

Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.

These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.

New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.

If you are the type to change your car every year, you need to be careful about this kind of thing. However, if you keep your cars for several years the difference in resale prices narrows, and the initial large saving looks like a bargain. When there has been a massive change in the car the 5 year old one sometimes gets a better price, if the 4 year old one turns out to be a stinker. Nothing is clear cut about resale values. If they sell too many cars on leases one year, as the leases expire the car values plummet due to the abundance. That suppresses new sales, when people see the awful resale values. Rapid increases in sales have a sting in the tail for the vendor down the road. Life is so complicated.

[coppice]

Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

He said he gets issues as the battery exhausts or becomes full. No amount of battery temperature control will affect that. It happens in all hybrids, depending how they are driven. The first time I rented a Prius I ran into this sudden loss of urge just on a freeway, after repeated bursts of acceleration ran down the battery. I imagine its quite an issue in very hilly areas.

[Ed.Kloonk]

These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.

That's why I enjoy the back and forth. Given the opportunity, car makers will dump the shittiest car they possibly can on either market.

What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?

Yikes.

 

[EEVblog]

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.

[james_s]

It's funny to hear people talk about resale value on a car, it's never something I've taken into consideration, I always assume the resale value will be scrap value because it'll be used up. The only time I've ever sold cars they were surplus to my needs and sold for more than I paid for them. The only time I've ever replaced a car was when somebody hit me and totaled it. If you take care of it a car can be kept going indefinitely, even an expensive repair is cheaper than payments on a new car.

A car is not an investment, it's a depreciating asset. Pay what it's worth to you for the use you'll get out of it, if you sell it for anything at all when it's worn out that's just a bonus.

[Bud]

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.

Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.

[BrianHG]

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.

Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.

 
 

[maginnovision]

Makes me feel better about replacing an engine for 11k. Practically free.

[sandalcandal]

What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.

EV's aren't really new fangled. Successful ongoing lines have been out for nearly a decade and similar EVs go back longer if you count less successful lines. You can find answers to most of your questions if you have a look around, stuff ain't exactly new.

Current new model EVs are direct second generations with third generations due soon, the "first generation" of current EV designs came around 2010. For example:
Nissan Leaf first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2018
Chevrolet Volt first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2016
There are of course similar EVs which go further back but their lines have been discontinued e.g. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV (which is generally regarded as terrible) and less similar EVs even further back before li-ion tech but those are definitely irrelevant.

Depreciation seems to be all over the place however. The Tesla Model 3 has only depreciated and by 10.2% in 3 years which is ridiculously low compared to market averages. "Tesla Model 3 retains almost 90% of its value over 3 years, study shows". The original study is here. Other Teslas models also well keep their value much better than most cars but EVs from other manufacturers drop off pretty fast. From that above original study:

“Categorically, electric vehicles depreciate more than the average vehicle because resale values take into account the $7,500 federal tax credit and other state and local credits that were applied to these vehicles when they were bought new,” said [iSeeCars CEO Phong Ly]. “Because the technology of EVs changes at a rapid pace, obsolescence also plays a role in their dramatic depreciation as well as consumer range anxiety and lack of public charging infrastructure.” However, Tesla vehicles defy this trend and depreciate far less than the segment average.

That deprecation seems to be due to rapid developments in EVs and thus lower desirability of old EVs rather than old EVs costing too much to run in most cases. I think Teslas have an advantage due to their on going over the air updates, excellent battery lifetime and limited availability making them much more desirable than the old Leafs which had major problems with their battery design and their styling looking...not so sexy.

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

Plenty of studies looking at costs of ownership for EVs and deprecation. First party case study on maintenance costs for a Tesla Model S done by a company running a regional shuttle service has $US 19k after 400 000 miles which includes two under warranty battery swaps at 194k miles and 324k miles though this is a bit of an extreme case due to constant supercharger usage. In their latest service logs here, maintenance cost per mile is $US0.07/mile compared to their estimated $US0.22/mile for a similar luxury sedan (Lincoln Town Car). Costs of ownership (Maintenance, repair, fuel etc.) is well known to be much lower than ICE cars. 

What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

As for what happens when batteries need replacement. I did some digging in a previous thread here. Replacement for a top of the line leaf battery is about $AU10,700 for a 40kWh battery direct from manufacturer with people getting quoted $AU10.5k for a 24kWh after labour from Nissan in Australia. Cost/kWh lifetime throughput was pretty comparable to a residential ESS powerwall system. Upfront cost per kWh capacity is also quite good. That being said  this bloke got stiffed for $AU33k and more across the world also getting charged about ~$US33k for dealership battery replacements. The difference appears to be to $10k is under a replacement program for out of warranty first gen leafs which are notorious crappy batteries (source) then $33k would be for a completely uncovered new battery? Again data on battery degradation, especially Tesla vehicles shows battery degradation is unlikely to be what's letting you down.

Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?

Not sure about the amateur and hundreds of Wh part (would probably blow up or not move if a <1000Wh battery was fitted) but after market battery replacement is already happening. "$2,500 to $3,500 for 24 kWh pack replacements"

[sandalcandal]

EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.

Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV. Edit: not in need of a new vehicle but in Dave's case the opportunity to get a new car free with a trade in nonetheless.

[EEVblog]

EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.
Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV.

Except that in my case I wasn't actually in need of a new car, my 2014 Corolla was just fine. But the business instant asset tax writeoff ends at the end of this year, so it was tax advantageous to do it now.