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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on September 18, 2020, 12:03:44 am

Title: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on September 18, 2020, 12:03:44 am
Dave finally bought a fully electric car!
A 2020 Hyundai IONIQ Electric Elite.
A discussion about buying an electric car in Australia, comparison to the Nissan LEAF and others, and picking up the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPcZm1Tu5VI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPcZm1Tu5VI)

The 30min drive back to the lab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBW_MV-TBU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBW_MV-TBU)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 18, 2020, 01:03:13 pm

In some countries, we can have power outages lasting a week or more.  That makes a good case for a plug-in hybrid!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on September 18, 2020, 01:50:41 pm
Or a propane/lng/diesel whole home generator backup.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 18, 2020, 02:30:51 pm

I like the idea of doing it the other way round, i.e. let the PHEV act as a power source for the home during a blackout.  Saves having an expensive generator standing around doing nothing for 99% of the time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on September 18, 2020, 02:53:33 pm
That only works for short bursts, certainly not a week. Besides the generator is only 7k with install. You ruin your car battery trying to backup the house it'll probably be similar cost but also mess up your car for some time.

This is just the conclusion I came to when trying to find a good source for batteries I could use to build a home backup system. The cost of batteries and an inverter alone is hugely costly while still not backing up the whole house(include AC since I'm in california).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 18, 2020, 03:04:23 pm
A new Car and the Stearing on the Wrong side.  |O
 :-DD Joke. Have fun with your Car! Where did you want to recharge it?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 18, 2020, 03:06:27 pm
It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car -  in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...

I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in).  It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed.  It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects.  The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.

The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!

The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 18, 2020, 03:16:20 pm
Quote
using the battery
:scared: its expensive to replace the battery every some km!  :--
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Fellonium on September 18, 2020, 06:05:58 pm
Next project: get the Australian government to use 'green' power. Apparently 85% of Australian power comes from (mostly) coal or other carbon based derivatives, according to the guy in the vid below. A brand new car on petrol that complies with all the most recent euro6-regulations might actually be 'greener'.

https://youtu.be/euGIg7lp3XY?t=128


Hyundai does make a good offer for 'value' EV's though. No other brand is even worth looking at if price is an issue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 18, 2020, 06:09:09 pm
Quote
using the battery
:scared: its expensive to replace the battery every some km!  :--

Exactly, which is why you don't use the battery -  you use the engine and generator?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 18, 2020, 06:40:47 pm
How about an Accu?  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Neilm on September 18, 2020, 06:58:39 pm
Congrats Dave,

I am sneaking up on owning an EV for 1 year now. My fuel cost has dropped to £220. I spent £2300 on petrol with my last year of petrol car (hybrid) - and I only managed to get onto an EV electricity tariff just a the Covid lockdown started.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 18, 2020, 07:22:20 pm
How about an Accu?  :-DD

What's an Accu?  if it's a brand of beer, I'm in!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 18, 2020, 07:42:31 pm
An Accumulator you never visit a School?!  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on September 18, 2020, 10:02:08 pm
Next project: get the Australian government to use 'green' power.

You can pay more for audited and accredited "green power" here. We've been doing that for probably 15 years now.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on September 18, 2020, 10:22:20 pm
An Accumulator you never visit a School?!  :wtf:

Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognises the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: tszaboo on September 18, 2020, 10:23:58 pm
An Accumulator you never visit a School?!  :wtf:
In english this is called a secondary battery. Or rechargeable battery.
Don't worry, I've learned it making the same mistake.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Fellonium on September 18, 2020, 10:56:11 pm
An Accumulator you never visit a School?!  :wtf:

Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognizes the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.

Yeh, this is most likely a translation snafu. It's in fairly common use for that purpose in German, French and Dutch though, to create some context.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on September 18, 2020, 11:16:49 pm
An Accumulator you never visit a School?!  :wtf:

Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognises the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.

In this context I thought they were referencing a (Honda) Acura  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on September 18, 2020, 11:50:32 pm
Also, I know it's more hybrids as gensets rather than full EVs as backup storage people are suggesting here but there was some good discussion in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/)) on the latter and it's not as bad as some people think imo.

And more on topic, I think Dave does a good job pointing out solid reasoning for his purchasing decision. Hyundai/Kia definitely a top choice at this point in time for a solid car at a good price though. The Nissan Ariya also looks like it might be an excellent car too when it comes now that they've finally thrown out that awful direct air cooling design.

I think the newer Tesla models (3 and Y) are also good value (outside Australia) if you can consider stuff like supercharger networks, auto pilot and reputation for excellent battery life. Although on the point of battery life, all manufacturers are offering pretty equal warranty on batteries for their newer models. With the news Tesla is likely to start shipping cars out of their Giga Shanghai factory (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia)) the cost of a Tesla in Australia will hopefully go down in the "near future".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 19, 2020, 12:38:16 am

Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept? 

It would be awesome with an electric convertible of some kind...


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Howardlong on September 19, 2020, 12:58:26 am

Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept? 


I had a Lotus Elan S2 25 years ago, man that was such a fun car, stuck to the road like glue. and it weighed next to nothing. I could see an electric version of the Elise being super fun.

Coincidentally, today I ordered an Ioniq PHEV. As I only have on street parking, and roadside charging here in central London is horrendously expensive ($0.47/kWh at best), I went for the PHEV.

It's not my first foray into this, I've had three Priuses before this, the last one being a plug in. It's like an arms race, each time I get a new one, the CO2 limits for various tax/congestion charges are altered again. Not sure how buying a new car full of batteries every four or five years is good for the environment TBH.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 19, 2020, 02:38:52 am

Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept? 


I had a Lotus Elan S2 25 years ago, man that was such a fun car, stuck to the road like glue. and it weighed next to nothing. I could see an electric version of the Elise being super fun.

Coincidentally, today I ordered an Ioniq PHEV. As I only have on street parking, and roadside charging here in central London is horrendously expensive ($0.47/kWh at best), I went for the PHEV.

It's not my first foray into this, I've had three Priuses before this, the last one being a plug in. It's like an arms race, each time I get a new one, the CO2 limits for various tax/congestion charges are altered again. Not sure how buying a new car full of batteries every four or five years is good for the environment TBH.

That Lotus Elan sounds like fun - I guess it was the inspiration for the Mazda MX-5 (Miata in the US).  I have one of them, a 1990, in very nice shape.

Re the Ioniq, I think the PHEV probably does make the most sense overall for British driving, unless you drive hundreds of miles per day and can get cheap electricity somehow.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on September 19, 2020, 11:50:54 am
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 19, 2020, 11:57:56 am
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?

Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project -  how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo?  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Gyro on September 19, 2020, 12:13:05 pm
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?

Yes, it's certainly mandatory in the UK - and other European countries that I know of. Our Kia has a reversing bleeper that uses the same speaker, it's a little annoying that it comes from the front of the car rather than the rear but is useful for shifting people standing in front of your parking space at the supermarket when you want to pull away!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 19, 2020, 12:28:07 pm
I could not remember to hear anything from a E Car when the are driving so its maybe not everywhere mandatory.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: NiHaoMike on September 19, 2020, 01:14:16 pm
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
There are some fairly cheap inverter boards for that purpose. Just need to add a power tap with a properly rated DC breaker. Also note that switching supplies, including VFDs, will run from DC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: radar_macgyver on September 19, 2020, 01:40:26 pm
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?

My GM Bolt EV has this, and it quit working one day (also triggered the check engine light). Turned out rabbits had chewed the wires.

Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project -  how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo?  :D
I think manufacturers missed a big opportunity by not making the sound customizable. I would have made it sound like the Jetson's car, or maybe even the Flintstones :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnT1VgeXOF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnT1VgeXOF0)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Brumby on September 20, 2020, 09:33:48 am
That Jetson's car sound in the first 10 seconds would be a whole lot of fun!!

I'd just have to do that - but it would be selectable.  Not sure how it would go with our laws.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 20, 2020, 02:08:34 pm
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
There are some fairly cheap inverter boards for that purpose. Just need to add a power tap with a properly rated DC breaker. Also note that switching supplies, including VFDs, will run from DC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE)

That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.

The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers...   which I don't think will work off DC.

The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC -->  120VAC inverter...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: NiHaoMike on September 20, 2020, 03:15:17 pm
That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.

The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers...   which I don't think will work off DC.

The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC -->  120VAC inverter...
Here's one example of a cheap HVDC to AC sine wave inverter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Ccylez-Converter-Post-Stage-Correction-Workmanship/dp/B08BRYQC8B/
Some tweaking will be needed to adjust down the output voltage.

Or you might be able to find a VFD for cheap.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 20, 2020, 04:05:47 pm
That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.

The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers...   which I don't think will work off DC.

The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC -->  120VAC inverter...
Here's one example of a cheap HVDC to AC sine wave inverter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Ccylez-Converter-Post-Stage-Correction-Workmanship/dp/B08BRYQC8B/
Some tweaking will be needed to adjust down the output voltage.

Or you might be able to find a VFD for cheap.

Looks interesting!

The specs are a little confusing:
Pure Sinus Inverter Power Board Input voltage: DC380V.
Input voltage: AC16V.
Output voltage: AC220V.

What does it actually do -  DC380 to AC220?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: xmetal on September 20, 2020, 05:59:24 pm
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?

We used to use a peg and a piece of card on our bikes when I was a lad! ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on September 20, 2020, 06:23:34 pm
There you go, with those fan wheels you could add some whistlers, duck calls, small didgeridoo(maybe).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on September 20, 2020, 06:23:59 pm
It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car -  in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...

I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in).  It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed.  It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects.  The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.

The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!

The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.
Quite a few cars now have a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 150W or so, for note book charging on the go. However, the new Honda E electric car has a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 1500W. Its not clear why they have made it so high output, but its enough to run fairly substantial appliances. A couple of YouTube videos reviewing the car include the reviewer taking a microwave oven with them to cook their lunch while on location.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 20, 2020, 07:06:31 pm
Maybe for a Death Ray Laser?
Or when you want to Upgrade your Car:
Quote
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.97651.1273643110!/image/3162004222.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/3162004222.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: NiHaoMike on September 20, 2020, 09:13:37 pm
The specs are a little confusing:
Pure Sinus Inverter Power Board Input voltage: DC380V.
Input voltage: AC16V.
Output voltage: AC220V.

What does it actually do -  DC380 to AC220?
The 16V AC input is an auxiliary for powering the logic and gate drivers. Probably would work with DC as well, although it would have to be isolated.

It accepts DC at 380V and outputs sine wave AC at 220V. Most likely the voltage can be tweaked down by changing some resistor values to change the duty cycle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on September 20, 2020, 10:11:04 pm
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
Depends on regs in your country. In the EU it became mandatory for cars type-approved around last July, so the switch is no longer there as it can't be turned off.
It typically operates from 0-20mph in drive mode. Pretty sure yours will have one - just open the window and put it in drive - you should hear it easily enough
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on September 20, 2020, 10:22:48 pm
Looks like my car does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.

We used to use a peg and a piece of card on our bikes when I was a lad! ;)

Fun times with the spokes.

I thought that was a mandatory thing?

I know you're old timer, but I hope you're not miss remembering the red flag rule applied when these new fangled horseless carriages first showed up on the scene.
 :P


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws
 ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Kalvin on September 20, 2020, 11:24:35 pm
Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?

In the spirit of DIY, you could probably use this one as a starting point for the missing engine sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA)
Anyway, you get the idea :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 21, 2020, 01:41:51 pm
It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car -  in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...

I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in).  It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed.  It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects.  The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.

The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!

The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.
Quite a few cars now have a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 150W or so, for note book charging on the go. However, the new Honda E electric car has a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 1500W. Its not clear why they have made it so high output, but its enough to run fairly substantial appliances. A couple of YouTube videos reviewing the car include the reviewer taking a microwave oven with them to cook their lunch while on location.


Interesting, that is a serious amount of power - and more than enough to get by in "survival mode".  Unfortunately, it is missing an ICE to keep the battery topped up!  :D


Here is what I'm using today - I bought a used one, I think they are installed on American utility trucks.  This guy will start and run the fridge/freezer.   The problem with it, is that it is capable of using almost 150 amps from the 12V circuit, which is too much for most cars...  I monitor it and keep the current below 80A which seems to not overpower the car's generating capabilities.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1071210;image)


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: bsdphk on September 21, 2020, 05:22:28 pm
I have always felt that precisely this is evidence that Elon Musk is devoid of any sense of humour.

If I had designed the Roadster, the driver would be able to select the exterior sound on the fly, and amongst the factory installed choices would be "Citroën 2CV", "Wartburg", "Lawmower", "Tractor", "1-cylinder Fishing boat" etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 21, 2020, 05:56:17 pm
 ;D How about a Tank sound for the Tesla Truck?  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 21, 2020, 06:00:36 pm
This engine shows how far we've come...   Our ancestors obviously didn't believe in high RPMs!  -  the shaking camera footage out on the water totally captures the experience of one of these boats. 

The sound is nothing short of TOTAL awesomeness!  :D

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJjeA38wQi8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJjeA38wQi8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 21, 2020, 06:06:03 pm
Quote
it is missing an ICE to keep the battery topped up!
The are often operate multiple time during the Day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Poe on September 23, 2020, 02:18:02 pm
The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea.  MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k.  Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes.  Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.

Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity.  Some manufacturers report usable capacity.  That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt.  Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SeanB on September 23, 2020, 03:06:03 pm
The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea.  MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k.  Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes.  Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.

Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity.  Some manufacturers report usable capacity.  That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt.  Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).

Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output. Only incentive to buy one is that electric power is not levied for road taxes when used for EV use, so the fuel cost is artificially low, but that will change when governments figure out how lucrative it can be milking the tax payer by keeping the duty just below the cost of fuel, and simultaneously increasing duty on fuel for road use even higher, once there is a large enough base of EV's that it starts to eat into fuel levy revenues.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 23, 2020, 03:28:16 pm
The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea.  MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k.  Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes.  Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.

Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity.  Some manufacturers report usable capacity.  That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt.  Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).

Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output. Only incentive to buy one is that electric power is not levied for road taxes when used for EV use, so the fuel cost is artificially low, but that will change when governments figure out how lucrative it can be milking the tax payer by keeping the duty just below the cost of fuel, and simultaneously increasing duty on fuel for road use even higher, once there is a large enough base of EV's that it starts to eat into fuel levy revenues.


They will find a way to dye electricity,  so cheap electricity sold for heating cannot be used in an EV!   Are those red electrons I see in your battery, Sir?   :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on September 24, 2020, 12:54:23 am
The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea.  MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k.  Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes.  Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.

Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity.  Some manufacturers report usable capacity.  That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt.  Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).

Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output.

No, the LEAF is well under the luxury car tax threshold.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: David Hess on September 24, 2020, 02:49:04 am
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!

Some hybrid vehicles can be purchased with a high power inverter for exactly that application.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on September 24, 2020, 12:13:47 pm
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!

Some hybrid vehicles can be purchased with a high power inverter for exactly that application.

I will be keeping a lookout for that, the next time I'm HEV or PHEV shopping.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ober on September 29, 2020, 11:19:38 pm
If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company

(search for "listen").
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on September 30, 2020, 06:43:27 am
If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company)

(search for "listen").

This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ober on September 30, 2020, 07:11:46 am

This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)

Being German, I'm quite aware you would probably laugh your socks off on how we pronounce Colgate, Maggi, Dash, and other international brands in Germany (with the interesting exception of "Milky Way").   We also call projectors "beamers" and other stuff like this.  In an international audience, you generally try to avoid those Germanisms, so people actually understand what you are talking about. 

I would expect the same for the pronunciation of "Hyundai".  Except that English speakers are maybe less used to the idea that their popular pronunciation of something is very funny to people who have been around a bit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Lord of nothing on September 30, 2020, 11:30:23 am
 :palm: Germans...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on September 30, 2020, 11:37:03 am
If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company)

(search for "listen").

This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)
Interesting. They are saying it as 3 syllables, which is completely wrong. In the early 90s I saw other ads for Hyundai cars on US TV, where they pronounced it Hun-D. Still not very accurate, but at least its 2 syllables. Couldn't they agree how they should present their own name to the US public?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Labrat101 on October 01, 2020, 01:18:03 pm
Dave are you going to stand to your Moto .
  Do a tear Down video .  .   >:D
Just joking  enjoy   :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: schmitt trigger on October 03, 2020, 04:18:23 pm
I second the tear down video idea!!  :-+ :-+

Just kidding.
But when the warranty finally runs out I am sure Dave will be tempted to do one.

Having said this, there is this guy at  the Weber State University (WSU) - Department of Automotive Technology which has done some fantastic tear downs of the Chevy Volt's powertrain. Make sure to check these:
He doesn't get as excited as Dave does when performing the tear downs, but one can easily see that this guy is beyond knowledgeable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM6s3sLaTqE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM6s3sLaTqE)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 12, 2020, 08:07:15 pm
63% of electricity in the USA comes from fossil fuel power plants.

(https://cdn.chinadialogue.net/content/uploads/2020/05/20093234/W6EE6J_coal-fired_power_plant_in_china.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Labrat101 on October 12, 2020, 09:56:13 pm
 Look on the bright side .
  Now that they have this huge hole .
    It can be use as parking Lot for all the Dead Electric powered Cars .
      The Electronics will fail for sure after about 7 years. (or sooner)  :palm:
  If the OS is MS software .. controlled  .. Press any Key for Brakes    :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 12, 2020, 11:23:24 pm
63% of electricity in the USA comes from fossil fuel power plants.
So EVs in the US use at least 37% less fossil fuels than ICE ones. It's a start.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 13, 2020, 04:07:15 am
At least I can put the fuel directly in and drive away seconds later.

It's a weak start.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2020, 07:13:19 am
At least I can put the fuel directly in and drive away seconds later.

Got a fuel pump at home?
I do!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 13, 2020, 08:22:06 am
In fact, there is a gas station about 50m from my home.

Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 13, 2020, 08:27:51 am
In fact, there is a gas station about 50m from my home.

Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
Hydrogen will never be a thing for normal cars.
Might work in situations like fleets using a small number of bases  where filling can be done, but it's a non-starter for everyday use.
Apart from the poor efficiency (ISTR about 30% electron to wheel), the infrastructure costs are not viable - think about the relative costs of installing  a hydrogen filling station compared to a rapid charger to en existing electricity supply.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 13, 2020, 10:15:10 am
On The Amp Hour, Dave mentioned the ioniq charge curve & using a camera to monitor it - there's a much easier way - get a cheap ELM327 bluetooth OBD2 dongle and install Torque pro on your phone - this can be used to log battery charge/discharge power directly
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 13, 2020, 10:45:44 am
Hydrogen will never be a thing for normal cars.
It really puzzles me why anyone even wants to try to make hydrogen the fuel of the future. Right now hydrogen is terrible from an ecological point of view, but you need to look beyond that to a future where hydrogen is produced from a clean energy source. The thing is hydrogen is a PITA to store and use, and its really hard to imagine any new technology changing that. If you are going to produce a large scale fuel from a clean source of abundant energy, why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Labrat101 on October 13, 2020, 02:01:54 pm
There was a fuel that's liquid at human temperature.  Water . H2O
There was a patented engine that ran on water, the water was chemically broken down to its base gases.  The patient was bought out by the petroleum groups as it  threatened their hold of power on the world.
No not the steam engine!
Nor was it done by electrolysis...



Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 13, 2020, 03:35:15 pm
There was a fuel that's liquid at human temperature.  Water . H2O
There was a patented engine that ran on water, the water was chemically broken down to its base gases.  The patient was bought out by the petroleum groups as it  threatened their hold of power on the world.
No not the steam engine!
Nor was it done by electrolysis...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sarich

The biggest sell-out after The Clash signed their record deal.  :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 14, 2020, 01:31:21 am
Doesn’t splitting water require more energy than you get from oxidizing it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 14, 2020, 05:58:39 am
hydrogen is terrible from an ecological point of view
why?


The thing is hydrogen is a PITA to store and use, and its really hard to imagine any new technology changing that. If you are going to produce a large scale fuel from a clean source of abundant energy, why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?


We have (or had?) buses here powered by Ballard fuel cells (proton exchange membrane). It ran on natural gas.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 14, 2020, 06:12:03 am
why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?
well in the case of gasoline, diesel, propane etc., the energy required to vaporaize them takes away from your energy output.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 14, 2020, 06:14:57 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2020, 07:17:52 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.

Err, you do realise that everything in modern society relies on the electrical grid, right?
FYI, Australia has 2 weeks worth of fuel supply.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2020, 07:24:03 am
Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.

Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: wilfred on October 14, 2020, 08:14:55 am
Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.

Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD

Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them because they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access. If that is a requirement. It requires a standardised battery compartment. Since they are so big they will constrain mechanical design to a degree as well. Also innovative companies will want to market their technology as superior. If it is a good idea buyers will have to force them.

It would be great on trips where you might swap a battery for a freshly charged one much as you do with a gas bottle for the BBQ. It would help prevent queueing at charge point as the popularity of electric cars increases. I can see that becoming a problem in smaller towns where a music festival or some post Covid large event is held. The charging infrastructure might meet normal usage but an extra few hundred people all wanting to charge at the same time could be a problem. But then so too will holding a stock of replacement charged batteries unless someone with foresight plans for the influx of visitors.

Plus owners needn't own the batteries and therefore they wouldn't own the need to pay to replace it when it dies and neither would the resale value of the car be as diminished because the new buyer will discount the car by the expected battery replacement cost. Availability of replacement batteries will limit the lifetime of a used car and with electric cars being mechanically simpler you would hope electric cars could have a long service life that isn't foreshortened by the unavailability of replacement batteries. At least at reasonable cost commensurate with the reduced value of the older car and the cost of just buying a new car.  With standardised and backward compatible batteries older cars could hopefully utilise newer (cheaper?) technology even at the first battery replacement let alone the second or third.

Even if you didn't have slide out - slide in quick recharge battery upgrades, standard and hopefully cheaper mass produced common battery packs still seem a good idea to me. You rent the battery as long as charging is convenient and swap them when time is short like on a trip. If your car is a glorified mobility scooter 95% of the time as if it were a second car for school runs and shopping then you could just rent a small battery until you needed a longer range one for the holidays.

Yes it seems like you're paying something that you needn't if you owned the battery but you do get the benefit of not selling the car extra cheap because a new buyer doesn't want to wear the large cost of a new battery in a car they don't intend to keep long enough.

The decisions made when a battery eventually needs to be replaced is to me one of the unspoken of disadvantages of electric vehicles. I wouldn't like to see cars with useful service life left just scrapped like we do with other appliances because the new ones are just too cheap and new battery packs too expensive. Getting the huge capital cost of battery replacement off the table seems like a good idea to me. 

I just wish power tools had something similar. The modern fad of power tool skins is a partial solution but there seems no reason that benefits the end user to stop there.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2020, 08:18:25 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2020, 10:39:59 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.

Yes, I've signed up for a government trial where they will give me a free 4G networked EV charger in exchange for me having to run various tests over the next year or two, and that primarily involves timed charging. They want data on how to best charge EV's at home on a large scale.
Haven't been picked yet though, application still pending.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 14, 2020, 03:13:48 pm
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.

No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 14, 2020, 04:45:42 pm
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.

No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?

It's not a super-daft point...  some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).

But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: bw2341 on October 14, 2020, 07:11:14 pm
Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them because they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access.

From Tesla’s battery day presentation, they will be moving towards batteries that are permanently attached to the car’s structure. The steel cans of the cells themselves will be part of the car’s structure.

The decisions made when a battery eventually needs to be replaced is to me one of the unspoken of disadvantages of electric vehicles. I wouldn't like to see cars with useful service life left just scrapped like we do with other appliances because the new ones are just too cheap and new battery packs too expensive. Getting the huge capital cost of battery replacement off the table seems like a good idea to me. 

While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 14, 2020, 07:50:05 pm
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Well before you sign up for that do the math first on how much the energy company needs to pay you for it to make sense. Keep in mind that the battery usage will affect the depreciation of your car. Ask yourself if you would pay good money for an EV with 20k km on the odometer and 200k km worth of battery use.

All in all your costs are very likely (several times) higher than the costs to generate the electricity and someone will have to pay for the storage costs. IOW it is likely more economic to use the electricity elsewhere (to make hydrogen for example).

While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
Nowadays maybe but don't mistake durability for reliability. Improved battery technology also involves making batteries good enough to last a car's lifetime (which means a well controlled durability to operate reliable for an X amount of kilometers). For most cars a battery which lasts about 300k km is good enough. By that time the suspension and many other parts of a car are worn as well so repairs are not economic anyway. Which leads me back to the point of why grid balancing using the EVs is not economic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 14, 2020, 09:58:04 pm
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Well before you sign up for that do the math first on how much the energy company needs to pay you for it to make sense. Keep in mind that the battery usage will affect the depreciation of your car. Ask yourself if you would pay good money for an EV with 20k km on the odometer and 200k km worth of battery use.

All in all your costs are very likely (several times) higher than the costs to generate the electricity and someone will have to pay for the storage costs. IOW it is likely more economic to use the electricity elsewhere (to make hydrogen for example).

While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
Nowadays maybe but don't mistake durability for reliability. Improved battery technology also involves making batteries good enough to last a car's lifetime (which means a well controlled durability to operate reliable for an X amount of kilometers). For most cars a battery which lasts about 300k km is good enough. By that time the suspension and many other parts of a car are worn as well so repairs are not economic anyway. Which leads me back to the point of why grid balancing using the EVs is not economic.

It would be more environmentally friendly if we could make cars last e.g. 500Mm (1K Km has to be 1 Megameter, right?) or even more.  -  The 300 megameter life of today's cars shouldn't be cast in stone as a limit, is what I'm getting at.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 14, 2020, 10:12:22 pm
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 14, 2020, 10:25:49 pm
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.

Good points, I agree with you.   The flip side of the 20vs. 30 year life debate is that we have to build 50% more 20y cars annually to keep a constant car parc.  That's a lot of resources being churned.

If material science improves further from today - and why wouldn't it -  it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect cars to keep lasting longer, while still looking good.  Maybe they won't even be made of steel...   

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 14, 2020, 10:36:02 pm
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
How many cars actually reach 20 years before being scrapped? Its a serious question. In hot dry places they last. In wet places they rust. The interior of some cars degrades so rapidly the car is ready for the scrap heap quite early. I have no idea how that all plays out to the global average life of a car. I think its clear that many cars are scrapped when most of the car is still in good shape, because one expensive part (e.g. the gearbox) has failed, and its cost exceeds the value of the vehicle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 14, 2020, 10:38:48 pm

The average car age in the USA is 12 years, I seem to recall.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 12:34:47 am
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD
When the car is dead and I need to go somewhere right now, yes absolutely.

But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 12:37:33 am
Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages ... they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access.
I don't give a flying squirrel about styling. Just drive over a pit where a mechanical lift drops the dead battery out and lifts a new one in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 12:40:34 am
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.

Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 12:42:07 am
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
When did I say I didn't have access to the power grid? Next rude and daft comment from the peanut gallery ...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 12:43:55 am
While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
This simply not the case with most EV cars. More likely the used market will be flooded with vehicles that need batteries.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 12:53:04 am
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
When did I say I didn't have access to the power grid? Next rude and daft comment from the peanut gallery ...

Your petrol pump depends on it. Is context hard for some reason?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 01:07:42 am
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.

To clarify "dependence on the grid": I can fill up some jerry cans with fuel and head out into the bush for a couple of months. Electric cars may be fine in densely populated areas like Europe and Asia, or for people who never leave the city and designated roads. For people who don't share those limitations, it is a burden.

A generator is just an extra step where to waste a ton of energy. Hybrids are a good idea in principle. In practice, they combine the worst of all words. I've driven them, and you get a gutless car that sounds like shit, and you still get the batteries and other EV parts that cost a fortune to replace.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 01:29:06 am
Your petrol pump depends on it. Is context hard for some reason?
There are many ways to get fuel into your tank without a grid connection. I can see that you are a very bitter and vile person, ready to spit venom at any ideas outside of your own tiny sheltered box. Poor thing.

There's really no need to get personal.

Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 01:40:16 am
There's really no need to get personal.
you made it personal

Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
right because we should all change our habits to accommodate frivolous tech trends and consumer marketing.

And don't try to paint me as some kind of ignorant naysayer. I've stated my practical reservations, criticisms and concessions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:10:46 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.

No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
It's not a super-daft point...  some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.

Pro Tip: Petrol pumps don't work without the power grid either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:13:13 am
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.

People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 02:13:50 am
Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:15:11 am
But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.

Power tool batteries don't weigh hundreds of kilograms, aren't the size of a refrigerator, and aren't a HV safety hazard.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:16:11 am
Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.

99.9% of the population is 100% reliant upon the electric petrol pump at their location petrol station.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:18:01 am
There's really no need to get personal.
you made it personal
Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
right because we should all change our habits to accommodate frivolous tech trends and consumer marketing.
[/quote]

No one is saying you should change anything, it's your choice.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 02:22:16 am
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.

EV's have charge timers in them. You can set it to switch on any time you like. And also set it so that the timer changes depending upon your location, e.g. work and home.
This is on top of potential network controlled usage just like how off-peak hot water systems have worked for almost 70 years now to control peak loads on the grid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 02:43:04 am
But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.

Power tool batteries don't weigh hundreds of kilograms, aren't the size of a refrigerator, and aren't a HV safety hazard.

Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.

Come now, Dave. Your car is barely bigger than a kitchen refrigerator. The battery is more a like a mini beer fridge.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Nissan_Leaf_012.JPG)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 02:53:17 am
Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.

99.9% of the population is 100% reliant upon the electric petrol pump at their location petrol station.
It's high, but that's an exaggeration. And it's only true MOST of the time, like commuting around the city. But you completely ignore rural areas, and remote commercial and industrial operations, or just venturing away from civilisation. The point is having options and flexibility. An battery only car is as good as tree stump outside of the electrical grid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 02:55:26 am
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.

EV's have charge timers in them. You can set it to switch on any time you like. And also set it so that the timer changes depending upon your location, e.g. work and home.
This is on top of potential network controlled usage just like how off-peak hot water systems have worked for almost 70 years now to control peak loads on the grid.

I don't know about you, but if it was my only means of transportation, then I would want it charged ASAP. I don't need a dead car sitting in the driveway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:02:46 am
From the proclamations I hear by Dave and others, I know that there's one main reason people buy electric cars: to tell other people that they bought an electric car.

I get it. It's an exciting and cool new toy. But these initial reactions are not interesting. Make a video in 10 years time (if you still have it), when you're not trying to justify your purchase, and then tell us why you're still glad you bought one.

Yes, there certainly are limited practical applications, but it's still mostly a novelty. We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:07:37 am
Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.

Of course, and it's been tried, and the enthusiasm for it just isn't there.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/ (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/)
The thing is, people don't really like going to petrol stations, and it stands to reasons they won't like going to battery swap stations either.
When you own an EV you realise it's innately satisfying about coming home or going to work or going to the shopping centre or pub and plugging in your EV, instead of having to go somewhere specific just to charge it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2020, 03:11:39 am

For those that can't make up their minds, or want the best of both worlds:  Plug-in Hybrid! :D

You can't beat the flexibility of that, in my view.  That's what I'm going for with the next car replacement.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:12:47 am
From the proclamations I hear by Dave and others, I know that there's one main reason people buy electric cars: to tell other people that they bought an electric car.

Wrong.

Quote
I get it. It's an exciting and cool new toy. But these initial reactions are not interesting. Make a video in 10 years time (if you still have it), when you're not trying to justify your purchase, and then tell us why you're still glad you bought one.

Go join an EV forum and you'll have your answer.
I've been on EV forums for years and know many EV owners, many have even built their own from scratch in the 2000's before all the hoopla.
I have never heard single one of them, even more than a decade later say they regret it or they wouldn't do it again. Not a single one.

Quote
Yes, there certainly are limited practical applications, but it's still mostly a novelty. We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.

You are becoming more demonstrably wrong every single year.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2020, 03:18:21 am
Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.

No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
It's not a super-daft point...  some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.

Pro Tip: Petrol pumps don't work without the power grid either.

Fair point - but many petrol stations around here have generators and remain open in the aftermath of a storm.  If there's one thing those guys have enough of, it is petrol to run a genny!  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:19:23 am
Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.

Of course, and it's been tried, and the enthusiasm for it just isn't there.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/ (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/)
The thing is, people don't really like going to petrol stations, and it stands to reasons they won't like going to battery swap stations either.
When you own an EV you realise it's innately satisfying about coming home or going to work or going to the shopping centre or pub and plugging in your EV, instead of having to go somewhere specific just to charge it.

That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:20:41 am

For those that can't make up their minds, or want the best of both worlds:  Plug-in Hybrid! :D

You can't beat the flexibility of that, in my view.  That's what I'm going for with the next car replacement.

It's a very attractive compromise. And I think it's why the worlds biggest and smartest auto maker is only selling hybrids. They're not going to gamble on a fad.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2020, 03:21:08 am
[...]  We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.

Somebody has to be the pioneers...   back in the day when petrol cars began to replace horses and buggies, there were likely people saying that these newfangled, unreliable rich man's toys will never catch on!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:26:35 am
A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:29:05 am
[...]  We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.

Somebody has to be the pioneers...   back in the day when petrol cars began to replace horses and buggies, there were likely people saying that these newfangled, unreliable rich man's toys will never catch on!  :D

Yes, and the pioneers were quite wealthy, and they still kept the horse and buggy parked in the stables.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:31:47 am
That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.

Then just buy a hybrid!  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:36:28 am
many have even built their own from scratch

well that's true fanaticism.


You are becoming more demonstrably wrong every single year.
I would hope so!

I want it to succeed. I would love an electric vehicle and I believe that they have enormous potential. I just think that right now they are throwing us bones and hoping we bite.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:37:42 am
A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?

Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:38:13 am
That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.

Then just buy a hybrid!  :palm:

I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:38:37 am
many have even built their own from scratch

well that's true fanaticism.

So are your posts here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:40:00 am
That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid!  :palm:
I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.

Then just wait and let all those other EV owner you're disparaging help drive the market forward instead of endlessly complaining about it  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:41:52 am
Come now, Dave. Your car is barely bigger than a kitchen refrigerator. The battery is more a like a mini beer fridge.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Nissan_Leaf_012.JPG)

Your ability to do volumetric guesstimating is embarrassing, don't give up your day job.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 03:42:31 am
many have even built their own from scratch

well that's true fanaticism.

So are your posts here.

Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.

If building your own EV is fanatical, are we all electronic fanatics? Does that mean we shouldn't have opinions and our knowledge is corrupted?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:44:19 am
A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?

Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.

If you own a gas car then you SHOULD carry a small gas can in the trunk. I always have.
It's happened to me ands many people. You walk or hitch a ride to the nearest station with my gas can, or call someone who can bring some gas.  Many people have gas cans for their mowers and whatnot. Various roadside assistance providers can quickly bring gas too.

But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:48:02 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 03:48:55 am
many have even built their own from scratch

well that's true fanaticism.

So are your posts here.
Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.

He's trolling at this point.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 03:49:31 am
A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?

Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.

If you own a gas car then you SHOULD carry a small gas can in the trunk. I always have.
It's happened to me ands many people. You walk or hitch a ride to the nearest station with my gas can, or call someone who can bring some gas.  Many people have gas cans for their mowers and whatnot. Various roadside assistance providers can quickly bring gas too.

But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

As EVs become more popular, roadside assistance is likely to include some charging capability, whether it be leeching off their own batteries or having a dedicated pack for charging unfortunately empty vehicles. Or, yes, a generator.

It's also possible we'll start to see (maybe we have already seen.. I'm not in the market so I don't pay close attention) 'limp home' capability using the last dregs of the charge - 15-20 miles of restricted power and maximum speed if you manage to run it down. And well, yes, I've run a couple different cars into scavenging the bottom of the tank just this year from being unfamiliar with their real-world range.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:55:34 am
If building your own EV is fanatical, are we all electronic fanatics?
We all? I don't know. EEVBLOG forum visitors range anywhere from marginal interest to full blow obsession to professional. I suppose that an electronics fanatic would build something something like a mixed signal DSO +  Network Analyzer by themselves from scratch. Not that there's anything wrong with fanatics. Credit where due!


Does that mean we shouldn't have opinions and our knowledge is corrupted?
Of course not. I never claimed that. You excel at jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 15, 2020, 03:56:23 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.
More solutions for this problem are coming online, see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DR3Sw2tZ4&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DR3Sw2tZ4&feature=emb_logo)

It's a start...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:57:15 am
Your ability to do volumetric guesstimating is embarrassing, don't give up your day job.
Whatever you say. My kitchen fridge wouldn't fit under the back seat like that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 03:58:22 am
That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid!  :palm:
I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.

Then just wait and let all those other EV owner you're disparaging help drive the market forward instead of endlessly complaining about it  :palm:

I will wait for them with pleasure. And I will come here to discuss (not complain) what I think too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 15, 2020, 04:04:34 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.

Also, I've once seen a Youtube video where an empty Tesla was being towed by rope by small truck & they got back multiple KM of range after a few minutes due to through regenerative breaking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 04:05:16 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.
More solutions for this problem are coming online, see here:

You could also solve this in the car software by having a setting that will only use say 90%-95% of your pack. i.e. force the user to keep a "reserve" to prevent them being idiots. Never include any of that reserve in the range calc or display etc.
To get the last 5-10% emergency reserve requires some convoluted menu procedure.
As I said, this is the exact same problem as ICE cars have, the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 04:05:26 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.
Which requires petrol but never mind. How long would it take to charge until you can drive, say 100km?
(equivalent to around 10L of petrol in a modern ICE car)

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 04:06:24 am
He's trolling at this point.

Right. Raising legitimate reservations is trolling. Comparing to existing solutions is trolling.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 04:12:27 am
the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
Right because you always have absolute control over every aspect of your situation. Unforeseen circumstances never arise.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 04:18:11 am
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.
Which requires petrol but never mind. How long would it take to charge until you can drive, say 100km?
(equivalent to around 10L of petrol in a modern ICE car)

Total elimination of fossil fuels is not necessary (or likely practical for the foreseeable future). Drastic reduction, on the other hand..

10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that and my current (admittedly diesel) will do over twice that. Just scaling numbers to anything but fat SUVs for reference.. But anyway, that much is liable to take a fair while longer than emptying a jerry can, yes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 04:30:29 am
10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that

Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.


An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2020, 04:40:40 am
10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that

Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.

I wouldn't call ~5.5l/100km fantastic, but it's better than a fat and almost entirely empty SUV or a full size saloon with a V8 for one man and his jacket.. I could get it down to about 8l/100km if I felt like being heavy footed, 10 would have involved pretending I have a three speed gearbox (I often pretended it was only four due to a worn gate annoying me..).

Quote
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.

Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 15, 2020, 04:41:29 am
Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.
Who is taking things personally? I've been personally called daft, a troll, accused of endlessly complaining, and my guesstimating has been shamed. I can take it of course, but so far all I did was talk about cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: jh15 on October 15, 2020, 05:07:38 am
ven Dave doesn't have all the clues yet. Took me awhile. Tesla S in May 2017. 1st month, charged off garage 120v outlet. 5 mph  of range. Called electrician, Quoted  125.00 if I got the proper materials to put in a 50A 240 volt what would be called a RV or welder outlet. I think 32mph of range. Is what Tesla recommended at the showroom, (not a dealership). and in the booklet.
     
I looked up. garage ceiling has 20 amp 120v for garage doors.
wired up a box to plug in to 15a and 20 amp to the rv plug box i built. 12mph range, been good enough for the almost 4 yrs.
, wall is 15 amp 120v. each has leg one each side of 240V to our house. In USA  a 15 amp is really code for 13 amp, which i set car at.
each morning, about 300 miles of range available.
Cost? haven't seen anything we can figure, maybe 20.00 doll hairs a month?
, it is lost in the dithering of using a/c or cleaning electric oven how long my 500 watt plasma is on, etc.

NO MAINTENANCE  visit to dealer (no dealers) no annoying car ads. , oil, exhaust, emission inspections, no acetone stench in garage when starting... on and on.

of course the hate. Dave won't get that in his car. I tell wife not to park by pickup trucks, you, know, oh! my truck door dinged your car, oops!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 06:58:12 am
the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
Right because you always have absolute control over every aspect of your situation. Unforeseen circumstances never arise.

I'm saying the exact problem can happen equally to both EV's and ICE vehicle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 07:08:53 am
Quote
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).

The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.

b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.

c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.

Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2020, 07:33:24 am
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.

People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
But that doesn't mean the car gets scrapped; it more likely gets a new owner. And some brands (like Toyotas) are so in demand they get exported to lower wage countries (Easten Europe, Africa) where the repairs are still economically viable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 07:42:10 am
I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.

People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
But that doesn't mean the car gets scrapped

Sure. Didn't say they did. The point is that's one of the huge reasons people are on the lookout to change to a new car.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2020, 08:12:41 am
Quote
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).

The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.

b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.

c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.

Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
Now you are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase. Hint: going down-hill needs going up-hill first.  ;)
Besides that an ICE hybrid offers the same advantages for energy regenerating without needing to worry about range. Last but not least ICE cars have warning lights (and beepers) to alert you the fuel is getting low after which you can typically drive at least another 80km. I get that in Australia running out of fuel in the middle of nowhere is an issue. In Europe however there is a gas station along the highway every 40km to 60km and there will be a big sign besides the road if there isn't (but these are very rare).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 15, 2020, 08:16:04 am

a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.



The Holden Commodore has a notorious fault with the fuel pump. The pump assembly contains a small reservoir and a check valve so that the fuel pump is able to supply fuel to the high pressure side of the fuel system as the fuel level in the tank falls well below the top of the pump.

What typically happens before 100,000kms is the check valve fails thereby negating the effectiveness of the fuel pump reservoir and you begin to rely on the sloshing around of petrol in the tank to prime the pump (which is supposed to be submerged in fuel).

When that happens, the analog fuel gauge is still showing 1/4 tank left. The dash's not-so-smarts assures you that you still have 120+kms 'to go'. The fuel warning light is designed to illuminate at about less than 40kms or so.

And yet, whether or not you have been driving like Fangio, chances are good you are SOL.

Whilst I realise that these cars are nearing EOL, the fault starts to occur closer to the manufacture date rather than the junk date. But when these cars were made, most were in a significant market share at the time of purchase. And it's just one model that I happen to be intimately familiar with. I'll bet that this sloppy technology is in many other cars too.

What is annoying is that mechanics see the fault and mis-diagnose it as intermittent ignition spark controller, another common, heat-related fault in this model.

 :horse:

What I'm interested to see how the next 10 or 20 years of the electric car will affect the repairibility of these things.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 09:46:33 am
Quote
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).

The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.

b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.

c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.

Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
Now you are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase.

Err, no, simply discussing facts about the range issue being discussed.

Quote
Hint: going down-hill needs going up-hill first.  ;)

Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 15, 2020, 10:30:35 am
Disclaimer: I have a conflict of interest in this application space but no connections to any of the products or companies I mention.

10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that

Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.


An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

7kW might be a bit high for an "average" genset and also much higher in cost than a jerry can. Battery based EV recharge rescue tends to be capable of higher power density but costs are definitely beyond both a genset or jerry can, more comparable to a towing service.

Regen tow recharging is a known and working practice used by more "enthusiast" level EV users but not recommended by manufacturers and definitely presents some dangers.

Sparkcharge claims 20kW (https://insideevs.com/news/411676/sparkcharge-portable-ev-charger-roadside-assistance/) so about 20km in 10min of charging (3.3kWh, 7km/kWh), linearly scaling from there of course. Higher speeds are feasible but not on the market yet it seems; this concept stage (?) solution (https://lightningsystems.com/lightning-mobile/) offers 80kW so that'd be 80km in 10min. Generally EVs are "meant to be" towed on flat beds to avoid regen overloads so you can imagine the process of loading-securing takes 5 min then freeing-unloading takes another 5 min at least. In this flat bed towing demo video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rDDlTE5img (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rDDlTE5img)
The operator seems fairly proficient and process of loading and unloading the vehicle for towing takes about 15min. If you just need to get home (or any destination where you can recharge) then you also save time spent needing to detour to a servo (gas station) to fully refuel. Pretty fair to say for most people living in most cities it will be time saving compared to towing, depending on how much of a detour getting to a servo is could also be equal or better than using a jerry can. There's also the possibility of tow companies just getting this equipment as added service and recharging vehicles while being towed.

Like other people have said, EVs really aren't at a disadvantage to ICEs car in any way for the majority of people. Fair, maybe for some they aren't. Maybe you've got some different circumstances living in an area with less capable infrastructure where petrol could be more reliable but its really stretching to say "Electric cars are still immature technology". EVs are at the level of being proven, reliable and practical right now. Your examples of unreliable grid, long distance travelling and emergency situations aren't applicable to most people you claim "are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase" if anything you're doing much more mental gymnastics to try find cases where ICE is better.

I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 15, 2020, 11:03:27 am
Disclaimer: Again, potential conflicts of interest for me in this area.

People in this thread seem to be under estimating longevity of EV batteries. Crowd sourced data on battery degradation of Tesla vehicles (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) shows much less than 20% degradation after 200 000 miles. Here's repair and maintenance costs for a 400 000 mile (640 000 km) Tesla  (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/02/this-tesla-model-x-has-driven-over-400000-miles-here-are-all-the-parts-that-had-to-be-replaced/) which total up to ~$US29,000. Search "400000 mile tesla" if you want more sources and discussion.

For people speculating on the development of a million mile lifetime battery, this video has a well researched analysis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvvJ5u1Sdo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvvJ5u1Sdo)
To put it shortly: million mile batteries already exist but not that they'd actually use them.

Also on battery swapping and batteries as a service, not done in the west but already thing in China, not planned or speculated but already happening:
Bloomberg "China Embraces Battery-Swapping System for Electric Vehicles" 17 Jan. 2020 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-17/china-embraces-ev-battery-swap-technology-tesla-has-cooled-on)

Quote from: Electrek
...BAIC BluePark New Energy Technology Co., which offers the service [battery swapping]. The state-owned BAIC Group, and its various entities, including BAIC JEV, is reportedly the second-biggest seller of EVs in China. Its numerous partnerships include Daimler and Magna.

BAIC BluePark said that it set up 187 battery-swap stations in 15 Chinese cities for 16,000 electric-powered taxis. And last year, it announced plans for 3,000 swap stations, enough to supply a half-million electric vehicles by the end of 2022.
Electrek
Source: Electrek "EV battery swapping is dead in US, but China wants to make it happen"  17 Jan. 2020  (https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/) (mostly a copy of the Bloomberg)

The Driven "Nio slashes ticket price of EVs with “battery-as-a-service” offer" 24 Aug. 2020 (https://thedriven.io/2020/08/24/nios-battery-as-a-service-drops-ev-price-by-14500/)

Come on guys, it takes maybe 15 min to do some research and expand your available info instead for parroting uncited hearsay :palm:

Edit: I should have sent 15min reading all the comments in the thread more carefully and seeing people have posted similar sources already  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 11:12:45 am
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 11:18:04 am
Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?

Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 15, 2020, 11:20:45 am
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.

This is exactly why even defence is swapping to EVs.

“Electrification allows you to have access to readily available power to distribute not only for the vehicle but for all those different systems that I have.”-Lt. Gen. Eric Wesley
Defence News "US Army ventures down path to electrify the brigade"  17 March 2020 (https://www.defensenews.com/2020/03/16/us-army-ventures-down-path-to-electrify-the-brigade/)

National DEFENCE "Army Driving Forward with Electric Vehicle Plans"  21 Feb 2019 (https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/2/21/army-driving-forward-with-electric-vehicle-plans)

Edit: To be fair, there are other reasons given for swapping to EVs like obsolesce of ICE but there is a major tactical advantage in having vehicles where energy can be generated on-site without having to rely on supply chains. The three major reasons provided in the first article in the order they are presented are: Obsolesce of ICE, Extended Independent Operations, and Improved Reliability. The first and last both apply to regular civilian use too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 15, 2020, 11:26:58 am
Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?

Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.

You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 15, 2020, 01:45:04 pm
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 01:45:08 pm
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

On a major road trip if you really wanted to haul arse though, ICE would still win for convenience. But that's really it's only advantage. Topping up from zero to 500km in 3 minutes won't be touched by EV's for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2020, 01:47:06 pm
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)

The tanks would already be dry from the initial panic  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2020, 02:15:37 pm
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.

Also, I've once seen a Youtube video where an empty Tesla was being towed by rope by small truck & they got back multiple KM of range after a few minutes due to through regenerative breaking.

Hah, that's actually pretty clever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 15, 2020, 02:19:03 pm
Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out.  More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!

The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard.   Everything was strictly cash only!  Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments.  When the sh!t really hits the fan,  the economy reverts to cash...

Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch.   Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners... 

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2020, 04:21:27 pm
Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less. This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2020, 03:32:26 am
Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not, it's just continually pissed away (at varying rates)
It's a very well known practical benefit of EV's.
I'll challenge anyone with their ICE car to come to the blue mountains and we'll have a race. Both cars drained to have 30km of range left. Drive from Katoomba to my lab in Baulkham Hills (an 85km journey). Betcha I make and your ICE car doesn't.
How do I know? I've taken the measurements, I've done the math, you'll be the one walking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 16, 2020, 04:05:23 am

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.

Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.

EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.

This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2020, 05:52:25 am

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.

Oh FFS  :palm:
Follow the damn thread.
We are talking about going down a MOUNTAIN.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 16, 2020, 06:43:14 am
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.

Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 16, 2020, 06:52:51 am
Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out.  More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!

The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard.   Everything was strictly cash only!  Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments.  When the sh!t really hits the fan,  the economy reverts to cash...

Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch.   Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners...

I don't know if they learned from it or not, but about 12 years ago a big storm rolled through here, it came after months of heavier than usual rain and knocked down scores of large trees causing major damage. It took down several large transmission lines and knocked out multiple substations and my power was out for 10 days, something that was unheard of before that. Anyway not anticipating being without power for more than a couple days I had idled my car and used a large inverter to run my gas furnace, charge up batteries and other stuff on a number of occasions and eventually I was getting pretty low on gas. As it turned out, I had a good deal of trouble getting more as none of the gas stations in town had power, nor did most of the ones in neighboring towns, the few that did had huge lines and rapidly sold out. I didn't want to run out of gas driving around looking for more so I mostly stayed home for a few days until they had eventually patched up enough that the power was on in part of the town and some patches of surrounding areas.

I remember being surprised at the time that so few gas stations had any sort of backup generator. It wouldn't take much to power even just one pump, a few lights and the cash register but most had nothing at all. Generators were in short supply too since so many people ran out and bought them, there were even problems with people stealing them right out of driveways, some even while they were running.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 16, 2020, 03:00:19 pm
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.

Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.

That situation (driving down a mountain) is one where a hybrid car doesn't work fantasticall well either -  its relatively small battery quickly fills up to the max, and then you are stuck with friction braking (or engine braking mode) all the way down 90% of the long hill.

This kind of thing is another reason to prefer a PHEV or EV over a "plain" hybrid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 16, 2020, 04:13:55 pm
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece). You've driven through a mountain range before right? Any normal journey through mountainous regions especially like the Blue Mountains is lots and lots of winding roads up and down the side of the mountain until you get to the coast. Here, let's do some math on a hypothetical situation since everyone is so enthused by the idea of it:

ICE car and EV both start off with same amount of range R_ICE=R_EV= 20km.

Let's start them off down a 10km section of road that's all down hill. You can't just freewheel it down the whole way, you need to brake to stay at a sensible speed and take turns. The ICE car can just engine brake the whole way and thus not use any fuel, it's range remains the same. The EV uses regen braking instead. Let's be conservative, give the ICE car an easy game and say the EV recovers range equal to only 10% (literature reports 16% to 70% (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/regenerative-braking#:~:text=Regenerative%20braking%20allows%20the%20range,they%20brake%20gradually%20or%20severely.)) so it gains 1km range.
R_ICE=20km
R_EV=21km

Since they're both "equally efficient" and we're directly comparing them directly based on a "range" energy consumption and capacity they both drive up an equal grade section for 10 km and both use up 10km of range.
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=11km

Then another equal grade down hill section for 20km this time
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=13km

up 5km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=8km

Down 20km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=10km

up 5km again
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=5km

The ICE makes it to the crest and starts rolling down to the next section but has no fuel. Onto the next section down for 10km
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=6km

Almost at the end and there's a 1km uphill section. The ICE car is out of fuel and can't go up but the EV still has range.
R_ICE=Dead 1km back
R_EV=5km

Then the last 10km of the trip down hill.
R_ICE=Dead 11km back
R_EV=Made it with 6km spare

Let's recap that journey. Both cars drove along the same undulating mountain road consistent of equally graded up and down section with a net downhill run. In total 10+10+20+5+20+5+10+1+10=91 km, with an uphill total of 10+5+5+1=21 km and a downhill total of 10+20+20+10+10=70 km. The EV car despite its terrible regen braking manged to recover some of the gravitation potential energy and made the 91km journey with 6km to spare despite starting with 20km of "range". The ICE car also manged to go quite far starting with the same 20km of "range" but got left behind 11km back when it was out of fuel and couldn't climb a short up hill section. In the end the EV made it with range to spare but the ICE car didn't. You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.

The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

The advantage of ICE cars is, despite their terrible efficiency, they have higher energy capacity because fossilised, refined plankton juice is much higher energy density than li ion batteries. The problem there is EVs as they are have more than enough range for everyone apart from people that need to cover a domestic flight level of distance while barely stopping e.g. truckies.

This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
Well here's the talk. I guess you should walk ;)

And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.

Hyundai Elantra (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/small-cars/elantra):
-Kerb Weight: 1420 kg
-Length:4620 mm
-Width:1800 mm

Hyundai Ioniq Electric (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/eco/ioniq/electric):
-Kerb Weight: 1575 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm

Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/eco/ioniq/hybrid):
-Kerb Weight: 1467 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm

So 1575/1420=1.109. So 11% more weight at most for a comparable car? That's gonna cause rolling resistance increase that out weighs any energy recovery?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 16, 2020, 04:16:27 pm
Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.

EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.

This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?

How is this even relevant to proving an EV will lose? We're comparing to an EV to an ICE car driving down a mountain not some hypothetical suicidal billy cart freewheeling down a mountain. All you've said is an EV isn't going to convert GPE perfectly back into KE. So what? Of course its going to have a below unity energy return who said it wouldn't. An ICE car has an energy return of ZERO! :palm:

You're either trolling or in complete denial trying to change the question posed to something meaningless and irrelevant.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 16, 2020, 06:10:52 pm
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.

The whole case reminds me of the story from someone who took an exam for flying hot air balloons:
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter a thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast and fly above the thunderstorm
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast again
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter yet another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop more ballast again
Examiner: where do you get that ballast from?
Candidate: from the same place your thunderstorms are coming from
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 16, 2020, 06:22:09 pm
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
[...]  if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. [...]

As a long time hybrid owner, I can confirm that the mountain driving experience is not great in a hybrid, because of the limited battery size. 


I am sure that all three alternatives - PHEV, EV, and plain ICE - would cope with both the up- and down hill scenario better than a hybrid!

Where a hybrid excels, in my view, is in dense traffic / urban driving, where the "swings" in the state of charge of the battery are not so big.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 16, 2020, 06:33:44 pm
@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 16, 2020, 06:40:08 pm
@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.

It is a Ford.   Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE.  Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 16, 2020, 06:42:50 pm
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.

Did you actually read the whole post let alone the conclusion?

...
You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.

The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

The point stands that EVs are unequivocally more efficient and economical than ICE cars. Mountain driving is a situation in which the difference in efficiency is exacerbated to an extreme level due to regen braking. Two vehicles being near flat at the top of the mountain isn't a normal occurrence but illustrates the real difference between the two technologies. Surely you can understand the context?

Edit: If you want something to argue, ICE vs Electric in trucks would be something actually worth discussion but that's getting off topic from Dave's commuter EV and the general hare-brained nonsense against EVs in this thread so far.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 16, 2020, 07:44:08 pm
@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.

It is a Ford.   Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE.  Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).
OK, That is interesting to know. I'm planning to get a hybrid as a next car (hydrogen isn't off the table though but needs some serious investigation first).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Gyro on October 16, 2020, 07:51:13 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 17, 2020, 06:03:38 am
The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

As I mentioned, as tested in my EV, I got 1kWh/100km consumption coming back down the mountain from Blackheath to Penrith. Normal around city is an order of magnitude higher at 10-11kWh/100km. And I wasn't being frugal, driving it in Normal mode not Eco. And as you mentioned, lot's of up's and down, lights etc, it's not just a cannonball downhill run.
This means that in practice I could have left Blackheath with 40km of range left and still made the 95km trip back to Baulkham Hills, because the part down the mountain used almost zero net energy, leaving that 40km of range for the flat drive back home.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: NiHaoMike on October 17, 2020, 01:22:29 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
Is there much point in making a full hybrid car if it doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine? If you are adding electrics to a conventional gas or diesel engine, I would think its more cost effective to just implement a 48V mild hybrid style KERS, like Volvo added to most of its cars this year.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 17, 2020, 03:40:34 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 17, 2020, 07:41:19 pm
Not forgetting the cars that switch off the engine at the lights. Which, of course, is an abomination.

 :rant:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2020, 07:51:02 pm
Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 17, 2020, 09:18:16 pm
Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
I think this is at least in part because last year, the Kona was one of the most desirable EVs around because of the long range and great reviews, hence the wait. 
Then a whole load of other new EVs started appearing, some with shorter leadtimes,  including the Tesla model 3, so as well as some Kona preorders getting cancelled, there was a lot more competition. I think production also increased when they opened a new factory in the Czech Republic.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 17, 2020, 09:59:47 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2020, 10:04:29 pm
Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines

I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.

That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too...  in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.
Why would you expect any of the other Atkinson based hybrids to be any different? When the Atkinson engine isn't supported by electric torque and power where you think a sudden surge for acceleration is going to come from?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 17, 2020, 10:33:21 pm
Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 18, 2020, 12:00:08 am
Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.

Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.

New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 18, 2020, 12:54:04 am
Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor...  I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.

I like Ford for economical long term car ownership.  When I take my old Ford to the dealer for its 10K mile services, it usually costs around $30 - $40 depending on how many filters etc. they feel like changing.   Try that with pretty much any other car marque? A good friend of mine has a BMW 5 series of a similar age, it never costs less than $600 for a service, it leaks oil like a sieve, and burns a quart between oil changes - but it does handle like a dream and does not look cheap inside.  Horses for courses? :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 18, 2020, 01:09:09 am
Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.

A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.
From your info I assume you are describing how things work in Australia. I did say that I think the pre-registered car thing is particularly a UK thing. In the UK dealer demo cars are frequently registered with the dealer being the owner. If you drive one of their cars with a staff member in the car you will drive it with special licence plates, called trade plates, on the car. The dealer's overall insurance covers you and them under these circumstances. If the dealer lets you have a demonstrator for longer, to drive on your own, they will give you a registered car under conditions that are basically a short term rental, for which no fee is charged. They have to have demonstrators of all the cars they offer. Who would buy a car without trying one? The pre-registered cars are registered with the dealer as the owner. When you buy one of these you are buying a second hand, but unused, car.

Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.
These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.

New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.
If you are the type to change your car every year, you need to be careful about this kind of thing. However, if you keep your cars for several years the difference in resale prices narrows, and the initial large saving looks like a bargain. When there has been a massive change in the car the 5 year old one sometimes gets a better price, if the 4 year old one turns out to be a stinker. Nothing is clear cut about resale values. If they sell too many cars on leases one year, as the leases expire the car values plummet due to the abundance. That suppresses new sales, when people see the awful resale values. Rapid increases in sales have a sting in the tail for the vendor down the road. Life is so complicated. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 18, 2020, 01:13:43 am
Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
He said he gets issues as the battery exhausts or becomes full. No amount of battery temperature control will affect that. It happens in all hybrids, depending how they are driven. The first time I rented a Prius I ran into this sudden loss of urge just on a freeway, after repeated bursts of acceleration ran down the battery. I imagine its quite an issue in very hilly areas.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 18, 2020, 01:47:27 am

These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.

That's why I enjoy the back and forth. Given the opportunity, car makers will dump the shittiest car they possibly can on either market.

What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?

Yikes.

 :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2020, 04:51:47 am
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 18, 2020, 05:14:48 am
It's funny to hear people talk about resale value on a car, it's never something I've taken into consideration, I always assume the resale value will be scrap value because it'll be used up. The only time I've ever sold cars they were surplus to my needs and sold for more than I paid for them. The only time I've ever replaced a car was when somebody hit me and totaled it. If you take care of it a car can be kept going indefinitely, even an expensive repair is cheaper than payments on a new car.

A car is not an investment, it's a depreciating asset. Pay what it's worth to you for the use you'll get out of it, if you sell it for anything at all when it's worn out that's just a bonus.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Bud on October 18, 2020, 05:18:51 am
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.

Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 18, 2020, 06:34:13 am
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.

Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.

 :o
 :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on October 18, 2020, 06:44:16 am
Makes me feel better about replacing an engine for 11k. Practically free.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 18, 2020, 07:32:43 am
What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.
EV's aren't really new fangled. Successful ongoing lines have been out for nearly a decade and similar EVs go back longer if you count less successful lines. You can find answers to most of your questions if you have a look around, stuff ain't exactly new.

Current new model EVs are direct second generations with third generations due soon, the "first generation" of current EV designs came around 2010. For example:
Nissan Leaf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf) first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2018
Chevrolet Volt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt) first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2016
There are of course similar EVs which go further back but their lines have been discontinued e.g. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV) (which is generally regarded as terrible) and less similar EVs even further back before li-ion tech but those are definitely irrelevant.

Depreciation seems to be all over the place however. The Tesla Model 3 has only depreciated and by 10.2% in 3 years which is ridiculously low compared to market averages. "Tesla Model 3 retains almost 90% of its value over 3 years, study shows" (https://electrek.co/2020/07/16/tesla-model-3-retains-90-percent-value-3-years-study/). The original study is here (https://www.iseecars.com/off-lease-car-deals-study). Other Teslas models also well keep their value much better than most cars but EVs from other manufacturers drop off pretty fast. From that above original study:
Quote from: iSeeCars
“Categorically, electric vehicles depreciate more than the average vehicle because resale values take into account the $7,500 federal tax credit and other state and local credits that were applied to these vehicles when they were bought new,” said [iSeeCars CEO Phong Ly]. “Because the technology of EVs changes at a rapid pace, obsolescence also plays a role in their dramatic depreciation as well as consumer range anxiety and lack of public charging infrastructure.” However, Tesla vehicles defy this trend and depreciate far less than the segment average.
That deprecation seems to be due to rapid developments in EVs and thus lower desirability of old EVs rather than old EVs costing too much to run in most cases. I think Teslas have an advantage due to their on going over the air updates, excellent battery lifetime and limited availability making them much more desirable than the old Leafs which had major problems with their battery design and their styling looking...not so sexy.

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
Plenty of studies looking at costs of ownership for EVs and deprecation. First party case study on maintenance costs for a Tesla Model S (https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers) done by a company running a regional shuttle service has $US 19k after 400 000 miles which includes two under warranty battery swaps at 194k miles and 324k miles though this is a bit of an extreme case due to constant supercharger usage. In their latest service logs here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HqBIOtNsYPalG51nAw_nubgskv4TQPGx8WhPZO4a_U8/edit#gid=0), maintenance cost per mile is $US0.07/mile compared to their estimated $US0.22/mile for a similar luxury sedan (Lincoln Town Car). Costs of ownership (Maintenance, repair, fuel etc.) is well known to be much lower than ICE cars. 

What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
As for what happens when batteries need replacement. I did some digging in a previous thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/). Replacement for a top of the line leaf battery is about $AU10,700 for a 40kWh battery direct from manufacturer (https://global.nissannews.com/ja-JP/releases/180326-04-j?source=nng&lang=ja-JP) with people getting quoted $AU10.5k for a 24kWh after labour from Nissan in Australia (http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6077). Cost/kWh lifetime throughput was pretty comparable to a residential ESS powerwall system. Upfront cost per kWh capacity is also quite good. That being said  this bloke got stiffed for $AU33k (https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill) and more across the world also getting charged about ~$US33k for dealership battery replacements (https://insideevs.com/news/398483/35000-dollars-leaf-batteries-virgin-islands/). The difference appears to be to $10k is under a replacement program for out of warranty first gen leafs which are notorious crappy batteries (source (https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/#:~:text=Nissan%20Australia%20will%20exchange%20a,year%2F160%2C000km%20battery%20warranty.)) then $33k would be for a completely uncovered new battery? Again data on battery degradation, especially Tesla vehicles (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) shows battery degradation is unlikely to be what's letting you down.

Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?
Not sure about the amateur and hundreds of Wh part (would probably blow up or not move if a <1000Wh battery was fitted) but after market battery replacement is already happening (https://insideevs.com/news/428315/ev-rides-nissan-leaf-new-battery/). "$2,500 to $3,500 for 24 kWh pack replacements"
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 18, 2020, 07:47:24 am
EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.

Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV. Edit: not in need of a new vehicle but in Dave's case the opportunity to get a new car free with a trade in nonetheless.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2020, 09:07:41 am
EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.
Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV.

Except that in my case I wasn't actually in need of a new car, my 2014 Corolla was just fine. But the business instant asset tax writeoff ends at the end of this year, so it was tax advantageous to do it now.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2020, 09:19:39 am

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 18, 2020, 09:57:43 am
Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor...  I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.
Thanks for the clarification!
Quote
I like Ford for economical long term car ownership.
Not for all models but there are sweet spots in their line up indeed. The main reason I bought our Fords is due to low maintenance costs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 18, 2020, 10:41:44 am

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 18, 2020, 10:49:42 am

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 18, 2020, 10:56:30 am

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 18, 2020, 11:04:35 am

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.

In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.

OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 18, 2020, 11:20:38 am

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

The open inverter forum (https://openinverter.org/forum/) has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 18, 2020, 11:24:50 am

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

The open inverter forum (https://openinverter.org/forum/) has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.

All fun and games until someone loses an eye.

 :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 18, 2020, 04:30:23 pm

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

It might become illegal to mess with sealed batteries - perhaps breaking the seal makes them off-road use only, or something like that...  you know what regulators are like!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 18, 2020, 04:47:40 pm

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.

In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.

OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

Owning a used car economically depends on (1) stuff not breaking so often, and (2) when something does break, cheap spares have to be available (preferably OEM spares...  dealing with quality and fit issues with Brand-X replacement parts gets old real quick.)   EVs just haven't been around long enough, in sufficient numbers, for the spares market (including recycled parts) to have become widely developed for them yet.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Bud on October 19, 2020, 05:07:27 am
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.

 :o
 :scared:

I ended up buying an aftermarket pair of them for CAD$30 on Amazon, which turned out to be as good as the original ones that were damaged by the Sun over the years of parking the car outside.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2020, 06:09:41 am
At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2020, 06:13:12 am
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 19, 2020, 03:43:30 pm
At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.

I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting.   -  If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top!  As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings...   hard to see the point of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 19, 2020, 03:48:32 pm
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 19, 2020, 04:59:39 pm
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.

Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 19, 2020, 06:26:03 pm
I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting.   -  If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top!  As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings...   hard to see the point of it.

My dad bought a used Leaf about 5 years ago, he used it to commute to work until he retired. Sold it after he started  living on his sailboat and had nowhere convenient to charge it. If I were still driving to work I'd likely have bought it from him but even when I was going into the office I always rode the bus. I drive so little now that the savings are insignificant even if electricity were free, I think I have filled my car 3 times this YEAR and most of the fuel I've burned has been the ~200 mile round trips to our cabin. For someone who commutes daily to their job, has multiple cars in the household and a garage or driveway to park in at home (a situation many millions of people have) a used Leaf still seems like it could be a pretty good deal. For those with different circumstances it may not make sense.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 19, 2020, 06:52:56 pm
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2020, 10:29:17 pm
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

I'd bet borderline zero.
I suspect there will always be a niche demand for even a depleted range LEAF. There just aren't that many used EV's here, so they should eventually find buyers at a price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: wilfred on October 19, 2020, 11:58:37 pm
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard.  It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.

EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 20, 2020, 12:50:18 am
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

But if you buy another 6 year old car there is a reasonable chance that it will have the same problem sooner or later at which point you're back where you started. It can be sensible to spend $10k putting a brand new battery into a car that is only worth $6k because at that point it has a brand new battery, the one major component that is likely to wear out or fail over time. I've never understood the mentality of not wanting to spend more repairing a car than the car is worth. With exception of certain collectible cars, you always spend more on any car than you can ever get out of it, it isn't an investment, you're paying money for transportation. If you spend $2k putting a replacement engine in a car that is worth zero and you drive it for several years you've come out ahead, even if you've technically invested a lot more than the value of the car into it. The only time this doesn't apply is if you already intend to replace the car soon, or if you get in an accident that totals it however in many cases insurance will account for money spent on major repairs as long as you can prove it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 20, 2020, 01:40:52 am
People are getting focused on battery degradation again but the Leaf is an example of a battery system done poorly. I posted it before in this thread but again, for a well done battery design degradation is minor (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) and range is good.

EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces. 
Price of a hydrogen isn't much better. Toyota Mirai is $US58,550 (https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/) for a range of 508km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai#Fuel_economy_and_range) and others in a similar ball park compared to a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD for $48,190 (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/build/?modelyearId=401838241&submodel=Sedan&styleId=401839827&priceBreakdown) and a range of 568km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Specifications_table).

And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 20, 2020, 02:59:58 am
I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard.  It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.

They won't be 120km because old LEAF's are notorious for battery pack degradation. It's rare to find a "12 bar" battery.
10 or 11 bars is common. 10 bars instead of 12 means only about 75% of the capacity remains.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 20, 2020, 04:30:07 am
And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.

Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 20, 2020, 04:38:47 am
And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.

Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.

Even the bus companies have not been able to make this work. Now that EV-buses are starting to prove themselves, the hydrogen horse has bolted, I feel.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 20, 2020, 04:54:26 am
Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.

I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 20, 2020, 02:00:24 pm
Price of a hydrogen isn't much better. Toyota Mirai is $US58,550 (https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/) for a range of 508km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai#Fuel_economy_and_range) and others in a similar ball park compared to a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD for $48,190 (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/build/?modelyearId=401838241&submodel=Sedan&styleId=401839827&priceBreakdown) and a range of 568km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Specifications_table).
In California (pretty much the only place you can actually get a Mirai) you can get a Toyota approved second hand Mirai, just off lease, for $15k, bundled with $15k of free hydrogen. Gee, those things are popular.

Hyundai have just started listing a hydrogen powered SUV in the UK. I assume its connected to some UK government scheme, as it makes no commercial sense - no hydrogen stations == no potential sales. It looks like a fairly basic SUV, and its 70k pounds. What a bargain.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 20, 2020, 04:42:17 pm

There is very little to commend a hydrogen car compared to a regular HEV, PHEV, or EV.

The long term future seems highly likely to be EV dominated, with a sprinkling of liquid fuel for special purposes (might be ethanol...  if we don't need so much of it).

I'd go for an ethanol-PHEV any day of the week!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on October 20, 2020, 07:49:55 pm
I don't know. That'd be roughly 3.5 TWh(avg 50kwh batteries per car and 70M cars a year) of capacity a year for new cars alone. Not that it's not possible but I don't think that'd be good for the world unless we have new batteries. How much earth would that require tearing up every year?

AFAIK we're only managing about 2TWh a year now and very very little of that is for cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ve7xen on October 20, 2020, 11:57:11 pm
Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.

I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.

Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.

A hydrogen powered car, all else being equal, would be somewhat more compelling since it can 'recharge' at a station much quicker than an EV could. I don't think they are technically a very feasible option, but I'm not convinced the home charging issue completely eliminates a market for them, at least until EV charging infrastructure is more developed.

I really think this charging infrastructure issue for those who don't live in single-family homes is a major roadblock to widespread adoption of EVs as they become more of a commodity. Until now they've been mostly a luxury or niche product, but if they want to really break into the mainstream, someone's going to have to come up with a solution for the people who don't own the land they park their car on most of the time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 21, 2020, 03:27:33 am

Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.


How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: wilfred on October 21, 2020, 05:09:31 am
Charging an EV at home is just the least objectionable place to charge. It means you made it home. Second would be at work which is a stable demand location so you can reasonably know whether you'll find a charger available. And thirdly is when you go to a shopping mall or some other public destination where you will spend sufficient time to charge, where you will enjoy the anxiety of not knowing if a charger will be available. It will be OK for a while and as demand soaks up free charge spaces then there is a wait for expansion to meet demand and so on it goes.

For all the people who will not have home charging stations like renters and apartment dwellers an EV is far less attractive.

What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.

Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 21, 2020, 05:55:30 am
What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.

Its a real problem. Telsa charges people sitting idle at super chargers a fee (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/support/supercharger-idle-fee) if the the station is above 50% capacity, double if it's full. Super chargers are getting issues with over crowding so charging is also some of them are also limiting the amount of charge you can get  (https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/tesla-limiting-supercharger-busy/), only up to 80% SOC so no slow last 20% current tapering and no end destination charging. Like any common resource, when there isn't enough to go around the less pleasant side of humanity starts to show (https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/9zwunv/supercharging_lines_are_battle_grounds/).

Then you have **ckheads ICE-ing charger spots (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/18/how-should-we-deal-with-ice-ing-superchargers/).

For all the people who will not have home charging stations like renters and apartment dwellers an EV is far less attractive.
...
Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.
Also a known issue.
Quote from: S.Á. Funke, et al.
[Abstract]
...We find public charging infrastructure as alternative to home charging is only needed in some densely populated areas...

[Conclusion]
...
We conclude the following based on the aforementioned two perspectives.
1. Home charging is currently the most important charging option in most countries and will remain so in many countries with high home charging opportunity for users beyond current early adopters. In countries, or regions with low potential home charging availability, public charging infrastructure will be important as substitute.

2. Thus, public slow charging infrastructure as conditio sine qua non for PEV use will remain important mainly in some metropolitan areas, but not on national level - with few exceptions. For commuters, especially for those with no home charging option, a regular workplace charging is an important option.
...
Source: S. Á. Funke, F. Sprei, T. Gnann and P. Plötz, "How much charging infrastructure do electric vehicles need? 
A review of the evidence and international comparison", Transportation Research Part D: Transport and Environment, vol. 77, pp. 224-242, 2019. Available Online (open access paper): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2019.10.024 (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2019.10.024)

Edit: That above study is a macroeconomic type study of charging infrastructure requirements and basically says the people people without access to home charging can be served using public slow (or fast) charging. It doesn't really go into the microeconomic cost impacts and desirability for individuals.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 21, 2020, 07:24:05 am
Charging an EV at home is just the least objectionable place to charge. It means you made it home. Second would be at work which is a stable demand location so you can reasonably know whether you'll find a charger available. And thirdly is when you go to a shopping mall or some other public destination where you will spend sufficient time to charge, where you will enjoy the anxiety of not knowing if a charger will be available. It will be OK for a while and as demand soaks up free charge spaces then there is a wait for expansion to meet demand and so on it goes.
My friends who have them all rave about being able to charge at home. They plug in their car when they pull into the driveway the same way they plug in their phone when they go to bed. They never have to go out of their way to gas up, they never have to think about it, just plug in each night and the car is always full and ready to go by morning. It's seriously the number one thing they all brag about and I can see it, I hate getting gas, if I could plug in a hose that would dribble gasoline into my car while I slept and give me a full tank in the morning I'd be all over that, I'd happily give up the ability to fill up from empty in a few minutes at a gas station.

If you are not able to plug in at home then an EV is a lot less attractive, I would not even consider one if I had to rely on charging stations, liquid fuel makes more sense for those use cases. EVs are not going to replace *all* ICE powered cars and they don't need to, it's simply one more energy source available for those use cases where it is ideally suited.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2020, 08:23:42 am

Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.


How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
This is already a thing : https://chargefairy.com/
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 21, 2020, 10:19:37 am
What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.

"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.

Quote
Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.

Or another destination like work. That would be a huge part of the buying decision.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 21, 2020, 10:21:52 am
If you are not able to plug in at home then an EV is a lot less attractive, I would not even consider one if I had to rely on charging stations, liquid fuel makes more sense for those use cases. EVs are not going to replace *all* ICE powered cars and they don't need to, it's simply one more energy source available for those use cases where it is ideally suited.

Yes, I wouldn't have bought one if I had to rely on public charging infrastructure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2020, 10:52:53 am
What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.

"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates. 
 
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.

 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 21, 2020, 11:33:57 am
How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
This is already a thing : https://chargefairy.com/
£3.99 per week, $AU7.35 per week
£207.48 per year, $AU382.19 per year
10kWh per week, 520kWh per year

Up to 50kWh per week (extra £14) allowed. Up to 2600kWh per year
Up to £17.99 per week, £935.48 per year, $AU33.14 per week, $AU1723.27 per year

Seems pretty darn cheap. I wonder how they make up for labour costs of sitting around while they charge up each person's car or how they'd scale to significant numbers when they can only charge one car at a time per van. 10kWh will take at least 12 min just sitting there for 50kW charging (Max charging rate for a Leaf and Ioniq). Maybe get ~4 charges delivered in an hour at best, £15.96 = $AU29.40 per hour then if they're charging people at home outside business hours they need to pay penalty rates on top of the need to make back all the other operating and capital costs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 21, 2020, 01:10:28 pm
I'm far from convinced that Charge  Fairy is a viable business - places with little off-street parking are likely to be too crowded at night to park the van.
There is also the issue of how many cars are actually able to  provide a way to unlock the charge flap while the car is locked without having the key - their website is very unclear on this.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2020, 01:42:30 pm
What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.

"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates. 
 
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.
While the UK car market is driven by the company car sector, the mass careful efficient usage of cars will never happen. e.g. the studies showing PHEVs are popular in the UK, because of tax credits, but few of them are ever plugged in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2020, 01:58:15 pm
I'm far from convinced that Charge  Fairy is a viable business - places with little off-street parking are likely to be too crowded at night to park the van.
There is also the issue of how many cars are actually able to  provide a way to unlock the charge flap while the car is locked without having the key - their website is very unclear on this.
I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?

The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 21, 2020, 05:37:46 pm
I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?

The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.


Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 21, 2020, 05:41:05 pm
"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates. 
 
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.
[/quote]

I suspect this will be adjusted as needed to keep things working. If people are lounging at charging stations it's little more than a firmware or pricing update to create means of discouraging this. People will drive miles to buy gas that is a few cents cheaper per gallon, if you jack up the price progressively on time spent on the charger people will get out as soon as they can.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ve7xen on October 21, 2020, 06:57:56 pm

Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.


How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.

To come up with that number I'd have to figure out the TCO versus an ICE, and decide if and how much premium I might be willing to accept to use an EV. I haven't gone too far down that rabbit hole. My mileage needs are relatively low (fairly short commute), so this might be a viable model for me, but that also means such a service wouldn't make too much money from me. Not sure how the economics work. Also seems an inefficient way, in man hours an electricity (assuming it's battery-based and not a truck with an ICE genny which just defeats the whole purpose).

There's another psychological factor that goes into it too, I think. If one buys an EV, they need to always have a plan to keep it charged for the lifetime of the vehicle. While they might have a solution to that today - say a shared charging station in their apartment's parking structure, or at work, a lot can change in one's personal life during that lifetime. I think this creates a mental barrier to purchasing an EV if you don't have charging infrastructure under your own control - you might need to move, or you might lose your job, etc. This will go down as charging infrastructure gets built out and more common, but for now it's a pretty big barrier for people in my kind of situation.

Though there are exceptions. A friend's colleague purchased a new Tesla without any real plan for keeping it charged. Ultimately she was unable to convince her strata council to allow a charger to be installed at her parking spot. Apparently once in a while she goes to a public charge point to top it up. So it seems to not be a barrier for everyone, but I wonder if she'd have made the same decision if she realized what the outcome was going to be. It sounds like she expected that council would permit her to have her own charger.

With more and more options for not owning a car at all (we have multiple options for both short and long term car shares here), I wonder if this is a market that should really just be encouraged to drop individual car ownership entirely, and at least the longer term car shares are in a pretty good position to be converted to EV. The short term ones have already built out pretty substantial parking infrastructure, so with minor adjustments to their approach (to make sure they don't get run down or out of reach of a charge point) can probably also be converted relatively easily.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 21, 2020, 07:17:24 pm

The psychology of a lot of people (undersigned included) is to own their car...  so you can keep your stuff in it, not have to worry about what previous users did on the back seat or how sick they got driving home from a booze party, or the farmer using it after shoveling muck, etc. etc. etc.  -  there is much more to car ownership than transportation from A to B!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 21, 2020, 10:34:31 pm
I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?

The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.


Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.

The road service vehicles here, I think, will eventually need to carry what ever is needed to facilitate getting the car to the charging bay. They already bring petrol if you're out and if you aren't able to drive off, they send a tow truck.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 21, 2020, 10:41:03 pm
I certainly like owning my own car, for those reasons in addition to the ability to control precisely what happens with it, keep the seat adjusted just the way I like it, the cushion molded perfectly to my backside from hours of sitting in it. The radio is set up just the way I like it, with just the stuff I want to listen to on the thumb drive or CD, the HVAC settings are always the way I like them, mirrors adjusted, everything. It's mine and nobody else messes with it. I can upgrade, modify and customize the car any way I like, I can maintain it myself and always know it's done right, and I can drive the exact same car for 20 years if I want to.

Not everybody cares about those things though, there are certainly people who don't need to own a car, and indeed many of the urban dwellers I work with don't.

As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 21, 2020, 10:53:31 pm
I worked for a lady once who thought that the Merc sitting outside was old because it had 100,000kms nearly clocked up.

Ashtray full! Sell the car.

 :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ve7xen on October 22, 2020, 01:30:53 am
As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.

Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 22, 2020, 02:14:53 am
Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.


It's clearly a real psychological thing, but it isn't rational. People buy and sell cars all the time, virtually everyone I know has had multiple cars in the time I've had the same one. Circumstances change, maybe not availability of fuel but people have kids, kids grow up and move out, they change jobs, buy or sell a travel trailer, boat or other thing and either need something bigger to tow it or no longer have a reason to be commuting in some huge thing. Gas prices rise and smaller cars become popular, they fall and massive SUVs are everywhere. Seeing this constant churn I just can't buy that most people have a big hangup about changing cars, they do it all the time, for reasons far more trivial than not being able to get fuel. it's just another irrational way of convincing themselves that something different than what they're used to won't work for them.

Some people DO avoid it, I mean I drove the same $500 car for 17 years and it was still in nice shape when it got totaled but I'm an edge case. I have multiple friends who went through at least 4 different cars in the same period I had that one, most weren't even due to a pressing need, just because they wanted something different.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2020, 05:27:08 am
Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more.

This is why I jumped at the chance of trading in my Corolla for my new IONIQ when they gave me a good price for it.
I maybe could have gotten a bit more by selling it myself, but it would have been incredibly painful and time consuming, it would have cost me a lot more in time and effort than I could have potentially gotten in return.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2020, 05:32:06 am
Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.

Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 22, 2020, 12:42:24 pm
Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.

Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.

This would be a no-brainer for a petrol station owner - they often have a couple of parking spaces they could use for this.  It is a kind of natural extension of their "energy business" too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 22, 2020, 12:47:41 pm
As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.

Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.

Young people seem more "sporty" about looking at alternatives.  One young lady at work drives a plug-in Prius.  I asked her about her experience with the car, and she was enthusiastic about it - she was able to drive one leg of the commute on electric, and use petrol on the way home (quite a commute), as there are no charging facilities near the office.   She felt that a longer range plug-in hybrid would be a good fit for her.  She didn't think a 100% EV was for her, but she was obviously 100% clued in as to what the alternatives are, and was willing to spend her money on it.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: David Hess on October 22, 2020, 04:20:24 pm
Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.

In the US I anticipate that would confront considerable regulatory, zoning, and neighbor issues.  It is often the case that law and politics are the greatest hurtles to overcome rather than engineering and economics.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 24, 2020, 09:46:53 am
Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.

I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.
Charging at home only works if you have an outlet you can use. And you'll need to find outlets along the road as well. Having to depend on public charging gets expensive quickly. The days of free charging are definitely over. Prices in the NL range from 50 eurocent to 80 eurocent per kWh (also at street level charging points) which translates to spending well over 10 eurocents per km. An ICE hybrid is cheaper to fuel even with the insanely high prices of gasoline/petrol in the NL. Companies who run the public charging stations in the NL are so secretive about their charging tarifs that the government agency which deals with consumer rights has summoned those companies to have clear pricing information on their website and on their charging points otherwise they'll face sanctions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 24, 2020, 09:56:39 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 24, 2020, 10:21:39 am
I have an odd question...
     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Yes. Several of the Level 2 chargers have programmable NFC type access.
EDIT:, oh realised you meant normal power point. I'm sure there is somewhere.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2020, 11:29:27 am
Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 24, 2020, 11:52:19 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB (https://www.chargersdirect.com.au/product/wallbox-copper-Business)
Delta AC Mini Plus (https://evse.com.au/product/delta-ac-mini-plus-charger-charging-station/)
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station (https://evse.com.au/product/keba-fast-ev-charging-station-22kw-rfid-security-enabled/)
...many more

Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger

Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20097191), not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019 :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 24, 2020, 12:22:01 pm
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB (https://www.chargersdirect.com.au/product/wallbox-copper-Business)
Delta AC Mini Plus (https://evse.com.au/product/delta-ac-mini-plus-charger-charging-station/)
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station (https://evse.com.au/product/keba-fast-ev-charging-station-22kw-rfid-security-enabled/)
...many more

Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger

Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20097191), not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019 :palm:
The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent.  It's already public knowledge.  This is the rule.

All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on October 24, 2020, 12:42:18 pm
The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent.  It's already public knowledge.  This is the rule.
The idea has been public since 2012 at least (https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Nov/electrification/1115_onstar-apps_gm.html). Edit: The Written Opinion of the International Searching Authority gave them NO to all claims for inventive step.

All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
The power level you describe is on the level of "Level 1" cable brick solutions so nothing nicely integrated into a charging outlet with NFC for that performance-price point that I know of. If you're not opposed to getting a bit more hands on, you could take the OpenEVSE (https://store.openevse.com/collections/all/advanced-series) ($US399) and mod NFC support ($US40 Adafruit module (https://www.adafruit.com/product/364)) onto it without too much difficulty I think.

Pretty much all the EVSEs on the market are way overpriced for the actual hardware inside. The OpenEVSE is probably the best "functional" solution in terms of value for money. I don't think there's anything cheaper unless you go to Alibaba specials.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 24, 2020, 12:57:29 pm
All the boxes you mentioned are high powered.  I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet.  Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet.  We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
Another possible option - standard outdoor outlets inside small lockable enclosures, or outdoor weatherproof sockets that can be locked with a padlock if necessary]
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 24, 2020, 05:43:47 pm
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 24, 2020, 09:06:30 pm
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.
No one is driving more than 50km to and from work.  I'm offering a means of replenishing what they lost + if they also do a little extra for in city business trips.  This is like an added courtesy as I'll soon be entering the EV market myself and I want to promote it.  If anyone needs to do a longer business road-trip, they will know to keep their car charged and will definitely make up for it over time.  I can always invest in 1 single high capacity outlet in 1 dedicated spot just for measure.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 24, 2020, 11:48:23 pm
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 24, 2020, 11:50:15 pm
Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 25, 2020, 12:10:15 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 25, 2020, 01:48:20 am
Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...
And here in Montreal, the current plug-in recharge stations charge at an electrical rate of 2x the equivilant of gas per km.  If my business is leasing cars for all the heads and partners, we believe this to be a nice option for when we take a 200km (total round trip) road trip (3/4) of the day to nearby city, or province, that they can replenish at the office since we would be paying for the gas anyways if it were an ICE.  Yes, we get to write off gas on the company gas card anyways, but we will not pay that stupid ridiculous 2x electrical charge point cost here in Montreal/Quebec when our home electricity is one of the cheapest in Canada.  It's almost as if those charge stations are subsidizing our residential and commercial power bills.  Otherwise, our business will just supply the corporate gas cards and we will have higher expenses in paying for fuel, but not this 2x cost per km charge station price where I can drop the whole EV idea for everyone all together.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2020, 06:20:33 am
Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...

Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/ (https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/)
But disable the manual override switch.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2020, 06:29:52 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy. Sure the power levels are different, but technically the same thing.
And if it's a business car, no problem.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 25, 2020, 06:51:40 am
[...]
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy.
[...]

Some countries' revenue services have this kind of thing down to a fine art,  where - for example - you pay more property tax if you have a nice view out of the windows...  or if you are using a company cell phone for personal calls...  and so on.  Millimeter democracy is so tedious.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 25, 2020, 07:45:42 am
Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?

Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...

Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/ (https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/)
But disable the manual override switch.
Ok, thanks, I get your point, but we are talking outdoors where we need to meet regulatory safety concerns for the plugs themselves.  As for metering, accounting is used to knowing who used what since we currently get the $$ spent with corporate gas card in the monthly statements.  I do have over a year before we will be implementing this, but I'm sure I will find a solution which will make it worth my time in the long run and it wont be spending 3K$ for each parking spot, but maybe just 1 high speed/current plus few more simple level outdoor 1 AC ports for the rest which will have software control.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 25, 2020, 08:38:48 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 25, 2020, 09:19:48 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.
"it's just a socket for a lawnmower/jetwash/whatever"
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: BrianHG on October 25, 2020, 10:28:45 am
I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
It is fairly simple.  Our company will be leasing from 1 company at least 10 cars who specializes in corporate lease packages.  We get favored service, favored price & the leaser has their own garage which handles everything from tire changes to body work and they supply a free car for the days one of our vehicles are in service.  We have group corporate insurance through the company for the car drivers.  We have a company gas card which works at all gas stations here in Canada & and major ones in the US, but that card only works for gas and emergency service/towing.  For my partners, we end up with saving compared to private leasing the cars on our own as well as every service I mentioned above becomes a company tax write off.  We offer to extend such services to our trusted employees whom we know we want to keep indefinitely with a take in their paycheck.  The monthly cut is less than what they could end up doing if they were to buy or lease the car themselves as they would need to pay for all listed services above including insurance.  On my side, it is a little additional work for my accountant at the end of each month, but I get even more of a tax write-off, my employee usually chooses a better car than they would be willing to pay for otherwise, and if they leave, they loose the car which since we only leased, it goes back to the leasing company.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 27, 2020, 07:01:52 am
It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.

No, it's nuts.
You can go down to the last minute detail, it would never end.

Used that work shower after the gym and didn't tell them? FRAUD!
Used that work phone to make a personal call? FRAUD!
Used that company computer to do anything personal, FRAUD!

Tax codes can be quite sensible and flexible actually, unless you ask (here it's called a private ruling), then they will likely to say "well, yeah, kinda" and then bog you down forever in paperwork for the most mundane thing.
Take the example above. You use the company shower for personal reasons a few times a week, that costs water and energy, and if you were silly enough to ask they might actually rule it to be a "fringe benefit" which then weighs the company (and possibly you) down in red tape forever for that one silly thing.
Yet if you ever got audited they would never ask "did anyone use the electricity for any personal use?", it's not even on their radar, and they wouldn't want to bog themselves down with investigating such a thing anyway, it's waste of their time. Yet if you were dumb enough to ask for a tax ruling on it, or decided for yourself "it's fraud if I don't", then well, knock yourself out with the compliance of that, it's all on you. Such a thing would be nothing but noise in a company balance sheet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 27, 2020, 12:10:35 pm
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.

An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.

As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 27, 2020, 12:38:20 pm
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.

An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.

As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.


From the perspective of the Inland Revenue Services, if you have 10 million people receiving an untaxed benefit of $100, it adds up to real money!  :D

In most countries it seems they begin to "care" at the level of about $50 a year.


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on October 27, 2020, 12:50:12 pm
An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330.

That works out to less than a dollar a day, averaged out. The biscuits, milk and coffee in the office kitchen costs me nearly as much PP as that.

I'm gonna report them.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: thm_w on October 28, 2020, 08:24:54 pm
Not the same as general degradation, and agree that warranty is the way to go, but interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws9Y1be8N-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws9Y1be8N-U)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 31, 2020, 04:06:26 am
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

Quote
If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

 :scared:
Make one personal phone call a day on your work mobile and it'll likely cost more  :palm:
And BTW, tax revenue doesn't magically just "add up" like that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Coordonnée_chromatique on October 31, 2020, 05:43:15 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 31, 2020, 05:52:01 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Coordonnée_chromatique on October 31, 2020, 06:06:52 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 31, 2020, 06:12:57 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way. It does indeed sometimes go wrong, but rarely and usually caught. You're also looking at sped-up footage and assuming they're completely, totally, and utterly unskilled and just ramming them in.. The trigger is not on/off.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 31, 2020, 06:13:08 am
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: EEVblog on October 31, 2020, 06:17:55 am
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.
I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.

At Altium we got free food and drinks (breakfast lunch and dinner from the cafeteria), gym membership, personal concierge service, mobile phone, car washing, and other stuff.
Get ONE muffin from the cafeteria and that would cost more than charging your EV for the whole day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Coordonnée_chromatique on October 31, 2020, 06:49:06 am
Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way

What are your references ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on October 31, 2020, 06:56:23 am
Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way

What are your references ?

Life experience outside an office.. In the real world people just don't take the time to anally position every fastener unless they know it's particularly vulnerable to damage. And again, you're making some bold assumptions from sped-up footage. Nothing out of the ordinary in every garage was happening in those shots. Not saying it's perfect, just that it's reality.

Oh, and any reputable seller would warranty the work done that way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on October 31, 2020, 07:06:04 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Coordonnée_chromatique on October 31, 2020, 07:16:37 am
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.

Sorry if i haven't been clear enough, i was talking about real life experience into a automotive service center on a long period as a mechanical technician in my young years.
Please, let the competent people doing their job.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on October 31, 2020, 06:24:40 pm
mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.

Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on October 31, 2020, 06:31:18 pm
mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.

Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.

That's absolutely not true for BMW or Toyota or Mercedes. Warranty work pays a much as you get them to. Most techs don't bother learning how to get their money so look for customer pay jobs where you can charge more. The ideal is running time for a warranty job while working on a CP job. Warranty typically will pay more time than it takes to actually diagnose something even when you do what you say you did.

I once got flagged by corporate because I was making a bunch of money, legitimately, diagnosing and repairing a single emissions failure on many cars.

The real problem is bad techs doing poor work because they don't have the skill to work at the pace they try to. If you find a tech did a poor job don't go there again and let the service manager know. Nobody wants to work with someone doing a bad job that may come back later. It also hurts the reputation of the place which results in worse pay and hours.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 31, 2020, 07:09:33 pm
As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
You are barking up the wrong tree. In the NL the government has a very specific list with what can be given to employees and what not and up to which monetary limit. EV charging is not on that list so it cannot be given away for free.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on October 31, 2020, 08:25:01 pm
https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.

Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly.  It's just got to last "long enough".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on October 31, 2020, 08:40:40 pm
Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: sandalcandal on November 01, 2020, 08:16:22 am
Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
Assuming you can even get them. All the good tradies I know personally from back in school and outside business are booked out months in advance, only chance of getting timely help from them is on the personal connection.  :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Coordonnée_chromatique on November 01, 2020, 09:02:27 am
Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly.  It's just got to last "long enough".

I use to always make my best in order to and fix everything wrong on the car without any more time or money allowed by the commercial staff... and finally made a burnout (fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort linked to exhaustion)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 01, 2020, 02:56:24 pm
Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly.  It's just got to last "long enough".

I use to always make my best in order to and fix everything wrong on the car without any more time or money allowed by the commercial staff... and finally made a burnout (fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort linked to exhaustion)

Yep, we can't carry the weight of the world on our shoulders, we are only human.  So, we have to do "good enough" work commercially just like everyone else, and leave the "best work" for hobbies!

The lucky few can combine the two...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 02, 2020, 04:33:34 am
fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort
You should get that checked out. They have creams for that you know  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: gmb42 on November 02, 2020, 11:16:46 am
fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort
You should get that checked out. They have creams for that you know  :-DD

For the sniggering schoolboys out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_tone
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 02, 2020, 05:51:12 pm
for the humorless out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on November 02, 2020, 11:11:26 pm
You are barking up the wrong tree. In the NL the government has a very specific list with what can be given to employees and what not and up to which monetary limit. EV charging is not on that list so it cannot be given away for free.

So change that list, it's hardly carved in stone.

Have you heard of anyone being prosecuted for it? Have you ever charged your personal smartphone or tablet at work? Did the tax man arrest you for it and haul you off to jail? Most of us to not live in the NL, so what the government of the NL permits is irrelevant to us.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on November 02, 2020, 11:12:59 pm
Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).

If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 03, 2020, 12:38:30 am
Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).

If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.

Sometimes it takes a trained/practiced person, e.g. reupholstering seats or doing bodywork and paint.  Other than those kinds of things, I'm firmly in the "Take it apart" category!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 03, 2020, 01:32:14 am
I'd rather take an auto trans to a shop to rebuild than do it myself. Too messy. Diffs kind of the same also because I don't want my laundry to smell like diff fluid for months(if it ever comes out). My phones... If I can't get factory original parts then I'll send it off so that I retain ip68 performance. Other than that I'll usually fix my own stuff just for the sake of having it done quickly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: james_s on November 03, 2020, 03:30:51 am
On the rare occasions that I've needed to replace a transmission I went to a salvage yard and pulled one for $75 or whatever they were charging at the time. Even if you have one rebuilt by a transmission shop you can still save quite a bit by doing the R&R yourself. In practice though probably at least 99% of cars go from the showroom to the salvage yard with the original running gear intact.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 03, 2020, 11:09:11 am
Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).

If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.

and often the said fix is accompanied by new damage by some ham fisted gorilla with no manual dexterity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Howardlong on November 12, 2020, 05:47:25 pm
My IONIQ PHEV finally arrived today.

635 page manual, and they're never written in user friendly format that makes things easy to find.

The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.

It took about ten minutes of fannying about to get it to charge at a roadside charging point, first problem was which cable to use, second problem was how to open the charging port flap: the petrol flap, which is separate, has a button on the dash, whereas the charging port is a toggle push open/push shut, and the first time I tried "the obvious" I didn't push hard enough.

Anyway, it's charged, 30 miles for £15, that's the encouragement Londoners get for going electric, so I'll be sticking to petrol  >:D

Cars are becoming incredibly over-complicated these days. There's no fewer than twelve buttons on the steering wheel, not including the horn.

I managed to get a handful of DAB/FM stations programmed up reasonably easily, and paired up my phone for the AmpHour. Beyond that, the remaining 630 pages of the manual were a little daunting, so I went back indoors and took advantage of a short lie down to cope.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 12, 2020, 06:06:07 pm
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 12, 2020, 06:22:34 pm
[...]
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire
[...]

The first time I encountered one of those was in a rental car at an airport, early in the AM, after a night with zero sleep and general jet lag and travel fatigue.  I wasted something like 15 minutes trying to figure out why the car didn't have a handbrake lever or pedal...  and then finally working out what they had done!  Once you know what they do, they are of course OK.  Not sure how good they are for handbrake turns, but....   :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 12, 2020, 06:24:09 pm
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.

I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Howardlong on November 12, 2020, 06:37:15 pm
I am so glad I am not alone!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 12, 2020, 07:07:10 pm
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
I know the basics of what the controls do, from reading the manual. However, the manual is not really clear about some interactions. My car just handles hill starts, without any setting of controls being required. When you lift your foot off the brake on a slope the brakes don't disengage until you apply a little throttle, or wait for a 2 second timeout. Its a great convenience feature on slopes steep enough that the gearboxes creep function wouldn't hold it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 12, 2020, 07:19:42 pm
My big complaint about car manuals is that they describe every feature on every variant of the model, so sme of teh time you need to figure out which features actually apply to your particular car.  In some cases you get really silly things like "cruise control type A", and "type B" with no way to tell which your car has.
It would be so easy to include a card with a list of which sections of the manual do or do not apply to a particular vehicle.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 12, 2020, 08:33:54 pm
My big complaint about car manuals is that they describe every feature on every variant of the model, so sme of teh time you need to figure out which features actually apply to your particular car.  In some cases you get really silly things like "cruise control type A", and "type B" with no way to tell which your car has.
It would be so easy to include a card with a list of which sections of the manual do or do not apply to a particular vehicle.
They usually describe every feature in every variant of the model supplied throughout in the entire world. Its interesting sometimes to find features they don't offer in your country. Often features they don't offer in any country that speaks the language of the manual.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 12, 2020, 09:07:25 pm
[...]
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire
[...]

The first time I encountered one of those was in a rental car at an airport, early in the AM, after a night with zero sleep and general jet lag and travel fatigue.  I wasted something like 15 minutes trying to figure out why the car didn't have a handbrake lever or pedal...  and then finally working out what they had done!  Once you know what they do, they are of course OK.  Not sure how good they are for handbrake turns, but....   :D

I picked up a rent a car in London, once. A Volkswagon POS. I got it started easily enough but I couldn't disengage the park brake because I didn't know you have to have your foot on the brake while doing so. Of course, the bloody car wouldn't tell me that.

I managed to get the car moving enough to block the driveway and then a delivery truck showed up. The driver started to give some stick. I went over and explained my situation and asked if he knew how to turn off a park brake on a new car. The look on his face turned to utter defeat and he said "No idea, mate" and he waited calmly while I sorted my shit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 12, 2020, 10:12:30 pm
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
I know the basics of what the controls do, from reading the manual. However, the manual is not really clear about some interactions. My car just handles hill starts, without any setting of controls being required. When you lift your foot off the brake on a slope the brakes don't disengage until you apply a little throttle, or wait for a 2 second timeout. Its a great convenience feature on slopes steep enough that the gearboxes creep function wouldn't hold it.

It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess.  Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 12, 2020, 10:45:16 pm
It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess.  Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 13, 2020, 03:03:36 am
It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess.  Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.

Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car.   Comes naturally with big feet!  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 13, 2020, 03:19:10 am
I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:12:51 am
I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.

You have to get the car onto the clutch somehow..

Also, bad for your clutch, and the only thing stopping you from rolling back is 2mm of pedal travel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 13, 2020, 04:31:03 am
It's what clutches are made for so if you aren't trying to hit 100% throttle to hold the car it won't be an issue. Unless your drive is all stop and go traffic, uphill, both ways.  :P I've never known anyone to have an issue though. Usually racing is what kills a clutch prematurely(even[especially?] if you're not trying to race).
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 13, 2020, 04:36:36 am
I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.

You have to get from stopped (with the brakes) to engaging the clutch, without rolling backwards.

In Europe, everyone is taught to use the handbrake in that situation (even if there is no hill, you are supposed to use the handbrake at a stop - safety habit).  I like heel-and-toe better but that also takes training and  not all drivers and cars are suitable for it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:37:17 am
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Howardlong on November 13, 2020, 08:48:41 am
It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess.  Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.

Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car.   Comes naturally with big feet!  :D

Somebody's boasting!  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 13, 2020, 03:28:04 pm
It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess.  Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.

Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car.   Comes naturally with big feet!  :D

Somebody's boasting!  :-DD

LOL my feet are so big I can easily use two pedals at a time even if not intentional!  :D

I have been doing the heel and toe (actually the two sides of the foot, not really heel and toe) for so long that it's become second nature - good thing I don't have to take another test any time soon!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 13, 2020, 03:57:15 pm
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:13:45 pm
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.

At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 13, 2020, 04:28:37 pm
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.

At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
I thought the market was moving from wet to dry, for higher efficiency and lower cost.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 13, 2020, 04:32:22 pm
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.

Every DCT I know of has hill hold assist so it doesn't matter, I'm talking about cars without(I don't have new cars). I've worked on DCT for many years and typically the failures we saw were from... racing around. Only accumulator pumps usually failed and clutches typically failed from not being properly adapted, aside from normal wear/tear. I don't know if I've ever seen one that had overheated but I only worked for BMW so maybe other manufacturers were worse.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:37:46 pm
Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.

At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
I thought the market was moving from wet to dry, for higher efficiency and lower cost.

Other way round afaik - VW started with dry and quickly decided wet was better, Nissan's new DCT (which I've driven) is wet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:40:00 pm
Every DCT I know of has hill hold assist so it doesn't matter

Hill hold assist has nothing to do with saving the clutch from creeping on an incline.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 13, 2020, 04:42:38 pm
What? If it has hill hold assist it gives you plenty of time to move from brake to throttle and you don't even need to touch the clutch until you're ready to move and you won't roll. I must be missing something you're implying.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 13, 2020, 04:47:56 pm
What? If it has hill hold assist it gives you plenty of time to move from brake to throttle and you don't even need to touch the clutch until you're ready to move and you won't roll. I must be missing something you're implying.

...

A: We're talking about a DCT, so there's no clutch pedal for you, and B: Creeping on a hill means slipping the clutch. Slipping a clutch with a heavy load wears and heats the clutch excessively.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: maginnovision on November 13, 2020, 09:35:53 pm
Yes, DCT is no clutch so you're on the brake then you move to accelerator, no clutch involved from you or the computer until ready to move. Modern manuals with hill hold holds brakes so again no clutch necessary, you hold the brakes until you're ready to move and do so. Creeping isn't something I mentioned so I don't know what to tell you about that other than if you are just creeping and not revving the piss out of the engine it has the same effect as holding the car with the clutch, virtually none.

If you have a large manual transmission vehicle towing a trailer on a hill without hill hold assist... I would still hold the car with the clutch unless I was sure I wouldn't roll back at all without it. From what I've seen of others driving manual transmission vehicles with no hill hold assist I'd strongly recommend they learn to use the clutch similarly because they end up moving to the accelerator and slipping the clutch for 5 seconds at 5k rpm.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 15, 2020, 01:44:38 am
Yes, DCT is no clutch so you're on the brake then you move to accelerator, no clutch involved from you or the computer until ready to move. Modern manuals with hill hold holds brakes so again no clutch necessary, you hold the brakes until you're ready to move and do so. Creeping isn't something I mentioned so I don't know what to tell you about that other than if you are just creeping and not revving the piss out of the engine it has the same effect as holding the car with the clutch, virtually none.

If you have a large manual transmission vehicle towing a trailer on a hill without hill hold assist... I would still hold the car with the clutch unless I was sure I wouldn't roll back at all without it. From what I've seen of others driving manual transmission vehicles with no hill hold assist I'd strongly recommend they learn to use the clutch similarly because they end up moving to the accelerator and slipping the clutch for 5 seconds at 5k rpm.


I haven't done the math, but instinctively, the heat dissipated in the clutch is probably is a function of the incline you are sitting on and engine RPM.

Obviously no problem to do it for a few seconds on a modest incline.  But hanging the car from the clutch for a minute while waiting for a light to change on a steep hill with a heavy load is probably a bad plan!
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: jh15 on November 19, 2020, 02:47:26 pm
Electric cars have these clutches?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 19, 2020, 04:12:43 pm
Electric cars have these clutches?

An electric motor has high torque right down to zero RPM, unlike an ICE.  So it doesn't need a clutch for getting the car started from a standstill.

An electric car does have an efficiency problem if the motor is used to hold the car still instead of the brakes.  It is more efficient to use brakes on a hill than it is to run current through the motor to hold the vehicle still.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: ludzinc on November 23, 2020, 12:03:48 am
Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day. 

It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway.  As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.

I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch.  I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running.  I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.

So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on.  Regardless of where I set the switch.  Without feedback.  Ugh.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 23, 2020, 12:29:21 am
Don't be afraid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2020, 12:38:15 am
Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day. 

It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway.  As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.

I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch.  I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running.  I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.

So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on.  Regardless of where I set the switch.  Without feedback.  Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Howardlong on November 23, 2020, 01:23:48 pm
Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day. 

It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway.  As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.

I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch.  I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running.  I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.

So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on.  Regardless of where I set the switch.  Without feedback.  Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.

Frankly, I'm finding a lot of it quite unfathomable.

The Ioniq I've had for about ten days, I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I've switched it off or not. Sometimes I find it still bongs at me, but doesn't explain why. I live in trepidation I'll come back and find the battery's drained.

On the plus side, one of the compliants I used to have with my old Prius plug in hybrid was that hardly any of the free charging points provided at some supermarket car parks ever worked, so I just gave up using them. Thankfully, five years later, we seem to be in rather better shape regarding this, although they do tend to be slow rate chargers.

I've tried using CarPlay and I'm not really sure why I would use that and not the built in sat nav.

Today's in-car tech needs an 8 year old's mindset to make it work. It's just a shame 8 years olds can't drive cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 23, 2020, 01:38:06 pm

The Ioniq I've had for about ten days, I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I've switched it off or not. Sometimes I find it still bongs at me, but doesn't explain why. I live in trepidation I'll come back and find the battery's drained.

The main on-off indication is the green car with arrows logo.

Not sure if it's same as the Ioniq but my Kona has different "On" modes depending on whether or not you have your foot on the  the brake while pressing the "power" button - this is not well explained in the manual, and it doesn't help that the different LED indication colours are shown in black & white !
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 23, 2020, 02:43:04 pm
Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day. 

It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway.  As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.

I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch.  I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running.  I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.

So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on.  Regardless of where I set the switch.  Without feedback.  Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.

I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves.   For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm...  or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever -  so you decide not to use it...    too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant!  :D

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2020, 01:01:12 am
Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day. 

It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway.  As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.

I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch.  I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running.  I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.

So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on.  Regardless of where I set the switch.  Without feedback.  Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.

I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves.   For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm...  or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever -  so you decide not to use it...    too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant!  :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 24, 2020, 02:39:28 am

I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves.   For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm...  or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever -  so you decide not to use it...    too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant!  :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.

It's the thin edge of the wedge. First they start by activating the wipers, eventually the car will wind up doing all the driving by itself.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 24, 2020, 02:40:50 am

I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves.   For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm...  or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever -  so you decide not to use it...    too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant!  :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.

It's the thin edge of the wedge. First they start by activating the wipers, eventually the car will wind up doing all the driving by itself.

Experience on the road tells me this is only a good thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 03:03:16 am

Today, my (car)  insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone...   it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.

If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance...  I politely declined.

How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory?   :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 24, 2020, 03:09:39 am

Today, my (car)  insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone...   it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.

If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance...  I politely declined.

How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory?   :(

These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 24, 2020, 06:25:37 am

Today, my (car)  insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone...   it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.

If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance...  I politely declined.

How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory?   :(

These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.

It will be ushered in with the [initial] cost saving on the insurance premium by allowing the app into your life. The punters will lap it up, when the time comes.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2020, 11:52:16 am

Today, my (car)  insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone...   it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.

If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance...  I politely declined.

How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory?   :(

These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
If you go to a site like comparethemarket.com, and look for insurance for a young driver, most of the cheaper options require an app or a telemetry box attached to the car. However, when we looked around last year for our son we found a much cheaper option from a major insurer without requiring any telemetry. The spread of quotes you get is quite bizarre. You can find one company quoting 500 pounds, while another quotes 5000 pounds for basically the same insurance conditions. Its a strange market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 03:08:06 pm

Today, my (car)  insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone...   it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.

If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance...  I politely declined.

How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory?   :(

These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
If you go to a site like comparethemarket.com, and look for insurance for a young driver, most of the cheaper options require an app or a telemetry box attached to the car. However, when we looked around last year for our son we found a much cheaper option from a major insurer without requiring any telemetry. The spread of quotes you get is quite bizarre. You can find one company quoting 500 pounds, while another quotes 5000 pounds for basically the same insurance conditions. Its a strange market.

One insurance agent explained that they give ridiculous quotes if they don't really want the business.  Different companies apparently specialise in different types of risk.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 24, 2020, 09:32:25 pm
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance

I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 10:21:08 pm
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance

I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.

I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare.   But 80mph?  ... hmmmm
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 24, 2020, 10:38:36 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2020, 10:42:33 pm
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance

I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.

I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare.   But 80mph?  ... hmmmm
Aren't most insurance claims the result of failing to make a sudden stop?
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 24, 2020, 10:59:07 pm
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Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 24, 2020, 11:04:34 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

No allowance - and being a passenger in the car is also a problem (the phone doesn't know...  it doesn't even know what car you're in).

Apparently you can delete journeys "with an explanation".
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Ed.Kloonk on November 24, 2020, 11:08:27 pm
I have a old picture of a very early model uniden gps receiver which I used as a speedo for a very old car I had. Once I was parked at the beach and the screen said 420km/h.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 24, 2020, 11:40:00 pm
Aren't most insurance claims the result of failing to make a sudden stop?

Hehe yes. However someone who makes sudden stops on a regular basis is a dangerous driver.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: radar_macgyver on November 25, 2020, 03:55:20 pm
I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare.   But 80mph?  ... hmmmm
Neither can I, but my Bolt EV sends me a monthly report showing the number of times I've exceeded 80 mph (usually zero) and number of "sudden deceleration events", which is never zero. The question is "hard stop according to whom?" I've opted out of my insurance company's app offer as well.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 25, 2020, 04:29:32 pm
I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare.   But 80mph?  ... hmmmm
Neither can I, but my Bolt EV sends me a monthly report showing the number of times I've exceeded 80 mph (usually zero) and number of "sudden deceleration events", which is never zero. The question is "hard stop according to whom?" I've opted out of my insurance company's app offer as well.

I found an article that says "a hard brake is defined as any condition where the vehicle decelerates faster than 7 MPH per second".

Not sure what to make of that...  I'm going to have to do some tests in my car next time I'm out and about, to see what that feels like in the real world.


https://blog.joemanna.com/progressive-snapshot-review/ (https://blog.joemanna.com/progressive-snapshot-review/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 25, 2020, 05:47:13 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.

Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 25, 2020, 08:57:28 pm
I found an article that says "a hard brake is defined as any condition where the vehicle decelerates faster than 7 MPH per second".

Not sure what to make of that...  I'm going to have to do some tests in my car next time I'm out and about, to see what that feels like in the real world.

Stunt drivers will pull 1G. 1G = 20 mph/s

A reasonably skilled driver could get deceleration rates in excess of 13 mph/s without loss of control.

Seems like 7 mph/s is gentle braking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 25, 2020, 08:58:24 pm
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass.


 :-DD that's a good one
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 25, 2020, 10:01:01 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.

Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.

I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: radar_macgyver on November 26, 2020, 05:46:48 am
GM launches Onstar Insurance Services (https://www.reinsurancene.ws/general-motors-launches-onstar-insurance-services/)

Damn...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 26, 2020, 05:52:03 am
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.

Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.

I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.

And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 26, 2020, 09:51:22 am
If it's a 75mph zone, he would have to be having a pretty bad day. I would dispute it and he would have a hard time proving I was going 5 over.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: nctnico on November 26, 2020, 02:55:14 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.

Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.

I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.

And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.
Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 26, 2020, 03:33:46 pm
Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.

The absolute limit being 70.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 26, 2020, 03:43:38 pm
that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province.  It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?

If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.

Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.

I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.

And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.

Imagine you are on an A road and need to pass someone doing 55 (in a 60) for whatever reason, which you judge to be inappropriate.  If you peak at e.g. 70 for a couple of seconds during the overtaking process...  you are arguably a safer driver than a hypothetical other that spends 5 times as long in the opposite lane passing at 58mph!

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 26, 2020, 03:45:34 pm
Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.

The absolute limit being 70.

I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 26, 2020, 03:58:10 pm
 :-//

Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 26, 2020, 04:23:27 pm
:-//

Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..

The UK road traffic statistics do not support that assertion:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1118328;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 26, 2020, 04:26:42 pm
I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
When did you last drive in the UK? I used to drive at 70MPH on motorways with lots of people passing me, but these days I set cruise to 70 and don't find that many going faster. I don't know why. Cars are more powerful these days, and drive effortlessly at higher speeds. On the other hand, maybe increased police monitoring, and being able to set cruise and sit back is making people more relaxed drivers.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 26, 2020, 04:36:45 pm
I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
When did you last drive in the UK? I used to drive at 70MPH on motorways with lots of people passing me, but these days I set cruise to 70 and don't find that many going faster. I don't know why. Cars are more powerful these days, and drive effortlessly at higher speeds. On the other maybe increased police monitoring, and being able to set cruise and sit back is making people more relaxed drivers.

Last year, M1 and M40.   As soon as you are outside peak hours and away from the roadworks with speed cameras, you won't get lonely in the fast lane, was my experience!  :D


Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Monkeh on November 26, 2020, 05:02:59 pm
:-//

Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..

The UK road traffic statistics do not support that assertion:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1118328;image)

Fatalities is a very narrow selection of accidents. I haven't briefly found any graphs not about injuries, which is a shame, seeing as those will be massively declining due to improvements in vehicles.

My own experience on the road says drivers are worse and more impatient than ever. And, I'm afraid, plucking a graph off the internet does not give you the right to adjust the rules of the road to suit your own preferences.

Anyway, well off-topic, so just do me a favour and don't come down to Cornwall. We have plenty enough bad drivers, the situation is already significantly worse when tourist season comes in, please don't add to it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on November 26, 2020, 07:57:01 pm
[...]  And, I'm afraid, plucking a graph off the internet [...]

The graph is the official government statistics, I should have included the reference:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-accidents-and-safety-statistics (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-accidents-and-safety-statistics)


[...] you [do not have] the right to adjust the rules of the road to suit your own preferences.  [...]

Goes without saying, really.


[...] Anyway, well off-topic, so just do me a favour and don't come down to Cornwall. We have plenty enough bad drivers, the situation is already significantly worse when tourist season comes in, please don't add to it.

But is it not true that "bad driving" encompasses much more than speeding -  what I see every day is things like changing lanes without looking (let alone indicating), driving while using a mobile phone, that kind of thing.   

I think the speed limit for drivers like that needs to be 3 mph, with a person walking in front with a red flag.

So I am no longer welcome in Cornwall...  that's a shame, where else am I going to get a proper serving of tea and scones?!?

Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 26, 2020, 08:19:32 pm
The absolute limit being 70.
In a 70 zone I normally wouldn't need to reach 80 to pass, and if so then only momentarily.

On the highway I find that coppers usually follow people for a bit to see if they're consistently speeding or driving dangerously. They don't pull you over right away. They have better things to do then give people tickets for passing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on November 26, 2020, 08:23:08 pm
:-//

Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..

I would say that inattentive and unskilled drivers are the most dangerous on the road. The ones who are completely oblivious to their surroundings. And they are just as dangerous going half the speed limit. In all my accidents I've never been hit by a speeder.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: coppice on November 26, 2020, 08:35:56 pm
Fatalities is a very narrow selection of accidents. I haven't briefly found any graphs not about injuries, which is a shame, seeing as those will be massively declining due to improvements in vehicles.
There are a couple of videos on YouTube where a 1980s Volvo 740 is crashed into a cheap modern car. In the 1980s the Volvo would crush most small cars in an accident. Modern small cars do pretty well against it. People are walking away from accidents with bumps and bruises that would have once have been somewhere between crushed legs and death. So, a drop in fatalities has a lot more to do with NCAP ratings than accident rates. On the other hand, car insurance rates aren't too bad compared to the 1980s. That might be a much better indicator of accident rates.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on February 17, 2021, 09:29:51 pm
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD

Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them

The Mobilize EZ-1 prototype is a bite-sized, two-person EV with a swappable battery so you wouldn't have to wait for it to charge. (https://www.businessinsider.com/renault-mobilize-ez-1-prototype-shared-ev-recycled-charging-battery-2021-1)

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/mobilize_ez-1_prototype_9hr00_14012021_6.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: jh15 on February 18, 2021, 05:24:07 am
Probably takes me about a minute to plug my old s in when needed. Would take ten seconds if the reflector/'gas cap' was on the right side. Have to be careful deploying the 'hose' so garage door doesn't come down on it.
Also have to be careful of garage floor ice from tire drippings. Such a pain to fill for overnight charge for 300 miles in morning.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Fungus on February 18, 2021, 11:03:24 am
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD

Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them

The Mobilize EZ-1 prototype is a bite-sized, two-person EV with a swappable battery so you wouldn't have to wait for it to charge. (https://www.businessinsider.com/renault-mobilize-ez-1-prototype-shared-ev-recycled-charging-battery-2021-1)

(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/mobilize_ez-1_prototype_9hr00_14012021_6.jpg)

Yes but that's tiny and designed as a rental/sharing car, like those scooter rental schemes. They're designed to be driven all day and any downtime is lost revenue.

Any full size 'family' car will have the batteries distributed all over it for weight/space/design reasons. It won't be a single big block of batteries, it will be difficult to standardize.

Heck, they haven't even decided on a standard voltage yet. Tesla has said they'll be raising the voltage in their next generation of cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on February 18, 2021, 09:51:14 pm
Yes. These things take time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: SilverSolder on February 18, 2021, 10:26:36 pm

Daimler just announced that they won't be 100% electric by 2030 and that this date is "too aggressive" for full electrification - the ICE will be with us for a while longer - the upside of that is, it will be in its most efficient form ever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: Cliff Matthews on March 30, 2021, 05:38:20 pm
It would seem David made Mehdi go green with envy? Funny guy buys proto-type.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFLopMOIjc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFLopMOIjc8)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on June 16, 2021, 12:02:05 am
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD

Battery Swap Stations Are Gaining Momentum In China (https://jalopnik.com/battery-swap-stations-are-gaining-momentum-in-china-1847015406)
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: f4eru on June 18, 2021, 04:46:04 pm
Battery swap as Nio does is OK for pro use, like taxis, but kind of missing the mark for normal users.
Title: Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
Post by: timelessbeing on June 22, 2021, 06:05:49 am
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night?  :-DD

A California Startup Now Offers a Full EV Battery in Just 10 Minutes (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-10/california-startup-ample-offers-a-full-ev-battery-in-just-10-minutes)