EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on September 18, 2020, 12:03:44 am
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Dave finally bought a fully electric car!
A 2020 Hyundai IONIQ Electric Elite.
A discussion about buying an electric car in Australia, comparison to the Nissan LEAF and others, and picking up the car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPcZm1Tu5VI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPcZm1Tu5VI)
The 30min drive back to the lab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBW_MV-TBU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBW_MV-TBU)
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In some countries, we can have power outages lasting a week or more. That makes a good case for a plug-in hybrid! :D
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Or a propane/lng/diesel whole home generator backup.
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I like the idea of doing it the other way round, i.e. let the PHEV act as a power source for the home during a blackout. Saves having an expensive generator standing around doing nothing for 99% of the time.
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That only works for short bursts, certainly not a week. Besides the generator is only 7k with install. You ruin your car battery trying to backup the house it'll probably be similar cost but also mess up your car for some time.
This is just the conclusion I came to when trying to find a good source for batteries I could use to build a home backup system. The cost of batteries and an inverter alone is hugely costly while still not backing up the whole house(include AC since I'm in california).
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A new Car and the Stearing on the Wrong side. |O
:-DD Joke. Have fun with your Car! Where did you want to recharge it? :-//
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It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car - in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...
I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in). It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed. It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects. The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.
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using the battery
:scared: its expensive to replace the battery every some km! :--
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Next project: get the Australian government to use 'green' power. Apparently 85% of Australian power comes from (mostly) coal or other carbon based derivatives, according to the guy in the vid below. A brand new car on petrol that complies with all the most recent euro6-regulations might actually be 'greener'.
https://youtu.be/euGIg7lp3XY?t=128
Hyundai does make a good offer for 'value' EV's though. No other brand is even worth looking at if price is an issue.
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using the battery
:scared: its expensive to replace the battery every some km! :--
Exactly, which is why you don't use the battery - you use the engine and generator?
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How about an Accu? :-DD
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Congrats Dave,
I am sneaking up on owning an EV for 1 year now. My fuel cost has dropped to £220. I spent £2300 on petrol with my last year of petrol car (hybrid) - and I only managed to get onto an EV electricity tariff just a the Covid lockdown started.
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How about an Accu? :-DD
What's an Accu? if it's a brand of beer, I'm in! :D
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An Accumulator you never visit a School?! :wtf:
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Next project: get the Australian government to use 'green' power.
You can pay more for audited and accredited "green power" here. We've been doing that for probably 15 years now.
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An Accumulator you never visit a School?! :wtf:
Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognises the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.
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An Accumulator you never visit a School?! :wtf:
In english this is called a secondary battery. Or rechargeable battery.
Don't worry, I've learned it making the same mistake.
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An Accumulator you never visit a School?! :wtf:
Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognizes the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.
Yeh, this is most likely a translation snafu. It's in fairly common use for that purpose in German, French and Dutch though, to create some context.
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An Accumulator you never visit a School?! :wtf:
Accumulator is not a word in common usage to refer to capacitors or electrochemical cells ('batteries') in English - it has not been for generations. Even if one recognises the archaic term, shorthand is substantially more opaque.
In this context I thought they were referencing a (Honda) Acura :-DD
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Also, I know it's more hybrids as gensets rather than full EVs as backup storage people are suggesting here but there was some good discussion in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/)) on the latter and it's not as bad as some people think imo.
And more on topic, I think Dave does a good job pointing out solid reasoning for his purchasing decision. Hyundai/Kia definitely a top choice at this point in time for a solid car at a good price though. The Nissan Ariya also looks like it might be an excellent car too when it comes now that they've finally thrown out that awful direct air cooling design.
I think the newer Tesla models (3 and Y) are also good value (outside Australia) if you can consider stuff like supercharger networks, auto pilot and reputation for excellent battery life. Although on the point of battery life, all manufacturers are offering pretty equal warranty on batteries for their newer models. With the news Tesla is likely to start shipping cars out of their Giga Shanghai factory (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia)) the cost of a Tesla in Australia will hopefully go down in the "near future".
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Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept?
It would be awesome with an electric convertible of some kind...
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Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept?
I had a Lotus Elan S2 25 years ago, man that was such a fun car, stuck to the road like glue. and it weighed next to nothing. I could see an electric version of the Elise being super fun.
Coincidentally, today I ordered an Ioniq PHEV. As I only have on street parking, and roadside charging here in central London is horrendously expensive ($0.47/kWh at best), I went for the PHEV.
It's not my first foray into this, I've had three Priuses before this, the last one being a plug in. It's like an arms race, each time I get a new one, the CO2 limits for various tax/congestion charges are altered again. Not sure how buying a new car full of batteries every four or five years is good for the environment TBH.
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Wonder why there aren't more electric sports cars - remember the original Tesla / Lotus Elise concept?
I had a Lotus Elan S2 25 years ago, man that was such a fun car, stuck to the road like glue. and it weighed next to nothing. I could see an electric version of the Elise being super fun.
Coincidentally, today I ordered an Ioniq PHEV. As I only have on street parking, and roadside charging here in central London is horrendously expensive ($0.47/kWh at best), I went for the PHEV.
It's not my first foray into this, I've had three Priuses before this, the last one being a plug in. It's like an arms race, each time I get a new one, the CO2 limits for various tax/congestion charges are altered again. Not sure how buying a new car full of batteries every four or five years is good for the environment TBH.
That Lotus Elan sounds like fun - I guess it was the inspiration for the Mazda MX-5 (Miata in the US). I have one of them, a 1990, in very nice shape.
Re the Ioniq, I think the PHEV probably does make the most sense overall for British driving, unless you drive hundreds of miles per day and can get cheap electricity somehow.
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project - how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo? :D
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
Yes, it's certainly mandatory in the UK - and other European countries that I know of. Our Kia has a reversing bleeper that uses the same speaker, it's a little annoying that it comes from the front of the car rather than the rear but is useful for shifting people standing in front of your parking space at the supermarket when you want to pull away!
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I could not remember to hear anything from a E Car when the are driving so its maybe not everywhere mandatory.
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The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
There are some fairly cheap inverter boards for that purpose. Just need to add a power tap with a properly rated DC breaker. Also note that switching supplies, including VFDs, will run from DC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE)
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
My GM Bolt EV has this, and it quit working one day (also triggered the check engine light). Turned out rabbits had chewed the wires.
Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project - how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo? :D
I think manufacturers missed a big opportunity by not making the sound customizable. I would have made it sound like the Jetson's car, or maybe even the Flintstones :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnT1VgeXOF0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnT1VgeXOF0)
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That Jetson's car sound in the first 10 seconds would be a whole lot of fun!!
I'd just have to do that - but it would be selectable. Not sure how it would go with our laws.
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The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
There are some fairly cheap inverter boards for that purpose. Just need to add a power tap with a properly rated DC breaker. Also note that switching supplies, including VFDs, will run from DC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlmmerXOkuE)
That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.
The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers... which I don't think will work off DC.
The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC --> 120VAC inverter...
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That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.
The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers... which I don't think will work off DC.
The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC --> 120VAC inverter...
Here's one example of a cheap HVDC to AC sine wave inverter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Ccylez-Converter-Post-Stage-Correction-Workmanship/dp/B08BRYQC8B/
Some tweaking will be needed to adjust down the output voltage.
Or you might be able to find a VFD for cheap.
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That is actually pretty cool, I never really considered how much stuff actually runs fine on DC.
The important thing for me is to run the fridge/freezers... which I don't think will work off DC.
The question is, where to look for an affordable 300+VDC --> 120VAC inverter...
Here's one example of a cheap HVDC to AC sine wave inverter:
https://smile.amazon.com/Ccylez-Converter-Post-Stage-Correction-Workmanship/dp/B08BRYQC8B/
Some tweaking will be needed to adjust down the output voltage.
Or you might be able to find a VFD for cheap.
Looks interesting!
The specs are a little confusing:
Pure Sinus Inverter Power Board Input voltage: DC380V.
Input voltage: AC16V.
Output voltage: AC220V.
What does it actually do - DC380 to AC220?
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
We used to use a peg and a piece of card on our bikes when I was a lad! ;)
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There you go, with those fan wheels you could add some whistlers, duck calls, small didgeridoo(maybe).
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It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car - in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...
I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in). It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed. It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects. The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.
Quite a few cars now have a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 150W or so, for note book charging on the go. However, the new Honda E electric car has a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 1500W. Its not clear why they have made it so high output, but its enough to run fairly substantial appliances. A couple of YouTube videos reviewing the car include the reviewer taking a microwave oven with them to cook their lunch while on location.
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Maybe for a Death Ray Laser?
Or when you want to Upgrade your Car:
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.97651.1273643110!/image/3162004222.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/3162004222.jpg)
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The specs are a little confusing:
Pure Sinus Inverter Power Board Input voltage: DC380V.
Input voltage: AC16V.
Output voltage: AC220V.
What does it actually do - DC380 to AC220?
The 16V AC input is an auxiliary for powering the logic and gate drivers. Probably would work with DC as well, although it would have to be isolated.
It accepts DC at 380V and outputs sine wave AC at 220V. Most likely the voltage can be tweaked down by changing some resistor values to change the duty cycle.
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
Depends on regs in your country. In the EU it became mandatory for cars type-approved around last July, so the switch is no longer there as it can't be turned off.
It typically operates from 0-20mph in drive mode. Pretty sure yours will have one - just open the window and put it in drive - you should hear it easily enough
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Looks like my car does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
We used to use a peg and a piece of card on our bikes when I was a lad! ;)
Fun times with the spokes.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
I know you're old timer, but I hope you're not miss remembering the red flag rule applied when these new fangled horseless carriages first showed up on the scene.
:P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws
;)
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Looks like my care does not have the VESS simulated engine noise sound system. Manual shows a button for it which my care doesn't have.
I thought that was a mandatory thing?
In the spirit of DIY, you could probably use this one as a starting point for the missing engine sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA)
Anyway, you get the idea :)
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It isn't so much about using the battery, as it is about using the ICE/generator set in the car - in other words, you let the car sit there and cycle the engine and provide power to the house, like a generator on wheels...
I did that during the last outage, but with a hybrid car (not a plug-in). It just stood there, cycling the engine, as the power was consumed. It did that for several days in a row with no ill effects. The battery level was maintained within about a 20% window so not worse than actually driving the car in terms of wear.
The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
The reason for choosing PHEV rather than Hybrid for this, is simply to get longer cycles between the recharges, and of course the normal benefits of a PHEV when it is being used as a normal car.
Quite a few cars now have a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 150W or so, for note book charging on the go. However, the new Honda E electric car has a 115V/230V AC socket that can put out 1500W. Its not clear why they have made it so high output, but its enough to run fairly substantial appliances. A couple of YouTube videos reviewing the car include the reviewer taking a microwave oven with them to cook their lunch while on location.
Interesting, that is a serious amount of power - and more than enough to get by in "survival mode". Unfortunately, it is missing an ICE to keep the battery topped up! :D
Here is what I'm using today - I bought a used one, I think they are installed on American utility trucks. This guy will start and run the fridge/freezer. The problem with it, is that it is capable of using almost 150 amps from the 12V circuit, which is too much for most cars... I monitor it and keep the current below 80A which seems to not overpower the car's generating capabilities.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1071210;image)
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I have always felt that precisely this is evidence that Elon Musk is devoid of any sense of humour.
If I had designed the Roadster, the driver would be able to select the exterior sound on the fly, and amongst the factory installed choices would be "Citroën 2CV", "Wartburg", "Lawmower", "Tractor", "1-cylinder Fishing boat" etc.
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;D How about a Tank sound for the Tesla Truck? :-DD
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This engine shows how far we've come... Our ancestors obviously didn't believe in high RPMs! - the shaking camera footage out on the water totally captures the experience of one of these boats.
The sound is nothing short of TOTAL awesomeness! :D
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJjeA38wQi8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJjeA38wQi8)
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it is missing an ICE to keep the battery topped up!
The are often operate multiple time during the Day.
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The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea. MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k. Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes. Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.
Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity. Some manufacturers report usable capacity. That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt. Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).
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The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea. MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k. Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes. Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.
Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity. Some manufacturers report usable capacity. That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt. Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).
Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output. Only incentive to buy one is that electric power is not levied for road taxes when used for EV use, so the fuel cost is artificially low, but that will change when governments figure out how lucrative it can be milking the tax payer by keeping the duty just below the cost of fuel, and simultaneously increasing duty on fuel for road use even higher, once there is a large enough base of EV's that it starts to eat into fuel levy revenues.
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The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea. MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k. Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes. Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.
Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity. Some manufacturers report usable capacity. That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt. Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).
Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output. Only incentive to buy one is that electric power is not levied for road taxes when used for EV use, so the fuel cost is artificially low, but that will change when governments figure out how lucrative it can be milking the tax payer by keeping the duty just below the cost of fuel, and simultaneously increasing duty on fuel for road use even higher, once there is a large enough base of EV's that it starts to eat into fuel levy revenues.
They will find a way to dye electricity, so cheap electricity sold for heating cannot be used in an EV! Are those red electrons I see in your battery, Sir? :D
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The Nissan Leaf sold in Australia appears to be made in Japan and the Hyundai in Korea. MSRP in Japan for 2020 S model starts at $32k. Wonder why so expensive in Australia, before taxes. Shipping can't be that much for a place so close.
Does the Nissan actually get worse Km per Wh? Some car manufacturers report the total battery capacity. Some manufacturers report usable capacity. That is to say, if Nissan is reporting total capacity, but only using <88% of the battery to get the 150mile range numbers, it might actually get the same or more miles per Watt. Many of the better manufacturers limit the total usable capacity of the battery to increase lifespan.... or just put in an adequately massive battery so you're rarely ever using most of it (Model S).
Import duties on what is regarded as a luxury vehicle no doubt, based on the mass block it occupies and power output.
No, the LEAF is well under the luxury car tax threshold.
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The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
Some hybrid vehicles can be purchased with a high power inverter for exactly that application.
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The "missing link" is some way to convert the 300V - 400V main battery power directly to 115VAC, rather than going via the 12V system like I did, which is much more limited!
Some hybrid vehicles can be purchased with a high power inverter for exactly that application.
I will be keeping a lookout for that, the next time I'm HEV or PHEV shopping.
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If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company
(search for "listen").
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If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company)
(search for "listen").
This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)
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This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)
Being German, I'm quite aware you would probably laugh your socks off on how we pronounce Colgate, Maggi, Dash, and other international brands in Germany (with the interesting exception of "Milky Way"). We also call projectors "beamers" and other stuff like this. In an international audience, you generally try to avoid those Germanisms, so people actually understand what you are talking about.
I would expect the same for the pronunciation of "Hyundai". Except that English speakers are maybe less used to the idea that their popular pronunciation of something is very funny to people who have been around a bit.
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:palm: Germans...
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If you want to learn how to pronounce Hyundai (hint: it's not Hi-on-die :-), Wikipedia is your friend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_Company)
(search for "listen").
This is how it was launched 30+ years ago. TV ad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36Ews_kukk)
Interesting. They are saying it as 3 syllables, which is completely wrong. In the early 90s I saw other ads for Hyundai cars on US TV, where they pronounced it Hun-D. Still not very accurate, but at least its 2 syllables. Couldn't they agree how they should present their own name to the US public?
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Dave are you going to stand to your Moto .
Do a tear Down video . . >:D
Just joking enjoy :-+
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I second the tear down video idea!! :-+ :-+
Just kidding.
But when the warranty finally runs out I am sure Dave will be tempted to do one.
Having said this, there is this guy at the Weber State University (WSU) - Department of Automotive Technology which has done some fantastic tear downs of the Chevy Volt's powertrain. Make sure to check these:
He doesn't get as excited as Dave does when performing the tear downs, but one can easily see that this guy is beyond knowledgeable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM6s3sLaTqE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM6s3sLaTqE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js)
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63% of electricity in the USA comes from fossil fuel power plants.
(https://cdn.chinadialogue.net/content/uploads/2020/05/20093234/W6EE6J_coal-fired_power_plant_in_china.jpg)
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Look on the bright side .
Now that they have this huge hole .
It can be use as parking Lot for all the Dead Electric powered Cars .
The Electronics will fail for sure after about 7 years. (or sooner) :palm:
If the OS is MS software .. controlled .. Press any Key for Brakes :-DD
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63% of electricity in the USA comes from fossil fuel power plants.
So EVs in the US use at least 37% less fossil fuels than ICE ones. It's a start.
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At least I can put the fuel directly in and drive away seconds later.
It's a weak start.
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At least I can put the fuel directly in and drive away seconds later.
Got a fuel pump at home?
I do!
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In fact, there is a gas station about 50m from my home.
Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
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In fact, there is a gas station about 50m from my home.
Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
Hydrogen will never be a thing for normal cars.
Might work in situations like fleets using a small number of bases where filling can be done, but it's a non-starter for everyday use.
Apart from the poor efficiency (ISTR about 30% electron to wheel), the infrastructure costs are not viable - think about the relative costs of installing a hydrogen filling station compared to a rapid charger to en existing electricity supply.
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On The Amp Hour, Dave mentioned the ioniq charge curve & using a camera to monitor it - there's a much easier way - get a cheap ELM327 bluetooth OBD2 dongle and install Torque pro on your phone - this can be used to log battery charge/discharge power directly
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Hydrogen will never be a thing for normal cars.
It really puzzles me why anyone even wants to try to make hydrogen the fuel of the future. Right now hydrogen is terrible from an ecological point of view, but you need to look beyond that to a future where hydrogen is produced from a clean energy source. The thing is hydrogen is a PITA to store and use, and its really hard to imagine any new technology changing that. If you are going to produce a large scale fuel from a clean source of abundant energy, why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?
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There was a fuel that's liquid at human temperature. Water . H2O
There was a patented engine that ran on water, the water was chemically broken down to its base gases. The patient was bought out by the petroleum groups as it threatened their hold of power on the world.
No not the steam engine!
Nor was it done by electrolysis...
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There was a fuel that's liquid at human temperature. Water . H2O
There was a patented engine that ran on water, the water was chemically broken down to its base gases. The patient was bought out by the petroleum groups as it threatened their hold of power on the world.
No not the steam engine!
Nor was it done by electrolysis...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Sarich
The biggest sell-out after The Clash signed their record deal. :P
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Doesn’t splitting water require more energy than you get from oxidizing it?
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hydrogen is terrible from an ecological point of view
why?
The thing is hydrogen is a PITA to store and use, and its really hard to imagine any new technology changing that. If you are going to produce a large scale fuel from a clean source of abundant energy, why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?
We have (or had?) buses here powered by Ballard fuel cells (proton exchange membrane). It ran on natural gas.
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why not make it an easy to work with fuel, that is a liquid at human temperatures?
well in the case of gasoline, diesel, propane etc., the energy required to vaporaize them takes away from your energy output.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
Err, you do realise that everything in modern society relies on the electrical grid, right?
FYI, Australia has 2 weeks worth of fuel supply.
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Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
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Charging at home certainly is helpful, and having solar (and plenty of sun) is nicer still, but I'll wait until hydrogen fuel cells or standardized swappable batteries are common. Electric cars are still immature technology.
Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them because they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access. If that is a requirement. It requires a standardised battery compartment. Since they are so big they will constrain mechanical design to a degree as well. Also innovative companies will want to market their technology as superior. If it is a good idea buyers will have to force them.
It would be great on trips where you might swap a battery for a freshly charged one much as you do with a gas bottle for the BBQ. It would help prevent queueing at charge point as the popularity of electric cars increases. I can see that becoming a problem in smaller towns where a music festival or some post Covid large event is held. The charging infrastructure might meet normal usage but an extra few hundred people all wanting to charge at the same time could be a problem. But then so too will holding a stock of replacement charged batteries unless someone with foresight plans for the influx of visitors.
Plus owners needn't own the batteries and therefore they wouldn't own the need to pay to replace it when it dies and neither would the resale value of the car be as diminished because the new buyer will discount the car by the expected battery replacement cost. Availability of replacement batteries will limit the lifetime of a used car and with electric cars being mechanically simpler you would hope electric cars could have a long service life that isn't foreshortened by the unavailability of replacement batteries. At least at reasonable cost commensurate with the reduced value of the older car and the cost of just buying a new car. With standardised and backward compatible batteries older cars could hopefully utilise newer (cheaper?) technology even at the first battery replacement let alone the second or third.
Even if you didn't have slide out - slide in quick recharge battery upgrades, standard and hopefully cheaper mass produced common battery packs still seem a good idea to me. You rent the battery as long as charging is convenient and swap them when time is short like on a trip. If your car is a glorified mobility scooter 95% of the time as if it were a second car for school runs and shopping then you could just rent a small battery until you needed a longer range one for the holidays.
Yes it seems like you're paying something that you needn't if you owned the battery but you do get the benefit of not selling the car extra cheap because a new buyer doesn't want to wear the large cost of a new battery in a car they don't intend to keep long enough.
The decisions made when a battery eventually needs to be replaced is to me one of the unspoken of disadvantages of electric vehicles. I wouldn't like to see cars with useful service life left just scrapped like we do with other appliances because the new ones are just too cheap and new battery packs too expensive. Getting the huge capital cost of battery replacement off the table seems like a good idea to me.
I just wish power tools had something similar. The modern fad of power tool skins is a partial solution but there seems no reason that benefits the end user to stop there.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Yes, I've signed up for a government trial where they will give me a free 4G networked EV charger in exchange for me having to run various tests over the next year or two, and that primarily involves timed charging. They want data on how to best charge EV's at home on a large scale.
Haven't been picked yet though, application still pending.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
It's not a super-daft point... some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.
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Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them because they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access.
From Tesla’s battery day presentation, they will be moving towards batteries that are permanently attached to the car’s structure. The steel cans of the cells themselves will be part of the car’s structure.
The decisions made when a battery eventually needs to be replaced is to me one of the unspoken of disadvantages of electric vehicles. I wouldn't like to see cars with useful service life left just scrapped like we do with other appliances because the new ones are just too cheap and new battery packs too expensive. Getting the huge capital cost of battery replacement off the table seems like a good idea to me.
While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Well before you sign up for that do the math first on how much the energy company needs to pay you for it to make sense. Keep in mind that the battery usage will affect the depreciation of your car. Ask yourself if you would pay good money for an EV with 20k km on the odometer and 200k km worth of battery use.
All in all your costs are very likely (several times) higher than the costs to generate the electricity and someone will have to pay for the storage costs. IOW it is likely more economic to use the electricity elsewhere (to make hydrogen for example).
While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
Nowadays maybe but don't mistake durability for reliability. Improved battery technology also involves making batteries good enough to last a car's lifetime (which means a well controlled durability to operate reliable for an X amount of kilometers). For most cars a battery which lasts about 300k km is good enough. By that time the suspension and many other parts of a car are worn as well so repairs are not economic anyway. Which leads me back to the point of why grid balancing using the EVs is not economic.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Well before you sign up for that do the math first on how much the energy company needs to pay you for it to make sense. Keep in mind that the battery usage will affect the depreciation of your car. Ask yourself if you would pay good money for an EV with 20k km on the odometer and 200k km worth of battery use.
All in all your costs are very likely (several times) higher than the costs to generate the electricity and someone will have to pay for the storage costs. IOW it is likely more economic to use the electricity elsewhere (to make hydrogen for example).
While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
Nowadays maybe but don't mistake durability for reliability. Improved battery technology also involves making batteries good enough to last a car's lifetime (which means a well controlled durability to operate reliable for an X amount of kilometers). For most cars a battery which lasts about 300k km is good enough. By that time the suspension and many other parts of a car are worn as well so repairs are not economic anyway. Which leads me back to the point of why grid balancing using the EVs is not economic.
It would be more environmentally friendly if we could make cars last e.g. 500Mm (1K Km has to be 1 Megameter, right?) or even more. - The 300 megameter life of today's cars shouldn't be cast in stone as a limit, is what I'm getting at.
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
Good points, I agree with you. The flip side of the 20vs. 30 year life debate is that we have to build 50% more 20y cars annually to keep a constant car parc. That's a lot of resources being churned.
If material science improves further from today - and why wouldn't it - it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect cars to keep lasting longer, while still looking good. Maybe they won't even be made of steel...
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
How many cars actually reach 20 years before being scrapped? Its a serious question. In hot dry places they last. In wet places they rust. The interior of some cars degrades so rapidly the car is ready for the scrap heap quite early. I have no idea how that all plays out to the global average life of a car. I think its clear that many cars are scrapped when most of the car is still in good shape, because one expensive part (e.g. the gearbox) has failed, and its cost exceeds the value of the vehicle.
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The average car age in the USA is 12 years, I seem to recall.
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
When the car is dead and I need to go somewhere right now, yes absolutely.
But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.
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Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages ... they will dictate the styling of the car to ensure rapid swap access.
I don't give a flying squirrel about styling. Just drive over a pit where a mechanical lift drops the dead battery out and lifts a new one in.
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EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.
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No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
When did I say I didn't have access to the power grid? Next rude and daft comment from the peanut gallery ...
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While it is still early, battery degradation seems to be low enough on modern Teslas that the rest of the car may wear out before the battery does. I think we will see more scrapped EV batteries reused in other applications than EV bodies with unusable worn batteries.
This simply not the case with most EV cars. More likely the used market will be flooded with vehicles that need batteries.
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No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
When did I say I didn't have access to the power grid? Next rude and daft comment from the peanut gallery ...
Your petrol pump depends on it. Is context hard for some reason?
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But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.
To clarify "dependence on the grid": I can fill up some jerry cans with fuel and head out into the bush for a couple of months. Electric cars may be fine in densely populated areas like Europe and Asia, or for people who never leave the city and designated roads. For people who don't share those limitations, it is a burden.
A generator is just an extra step where to waste a ton of energy. Hybrids are a good idea in principle. In practice, they combine the worst of all words. I've driven them, and you get a gutless car that sounds like shit, and you still get the batteries and other EV parts that cost a fortune to replace.
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Your petrol pump depends on it. Is context hard for some reason?
There are many ways to get fuel into your tank without a grid connection. I can see that you are a very bitter and vile person, ready to spit venom at any ideas outside of your own tiny sheltered box. Poor thing.
There's really no need to get personal.
Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
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There's really no need to get personal.
you made it personal
Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
right because we should all change our habits to accommodate frivolous tech trends and consumer marketing.
And don't try to paint me as some kind of ignorant naysayer. I've stated my practical reservations, criticisms and concessions.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
It's not a super-daft point... some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.
Pro Tip: Petrol pumps don't work without the power grid either.
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
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Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.
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But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.
Power tool batteries don't weigh hundreds of kilograms, aren't the size of a refrigerator, and aren't a HV safety hazard.
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Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.
99.9% of the population is 100% reliant upon the electric petrol pump at their location petrol station.
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There's really no need to get personal.
you made it personal
Besides, I'm not the one rejecting an idea because it requires changing my habits and expectations.
right because we should all change our habits to accommodate frivolous tech trends and consumer marketing.
[/quote]
No one is saying you should change anything, it's your choice.
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EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.
EV's have charge timers in them. You can set it to switch on any time you like. And also set it so that the timer changes depending upon your location, e.g. work and home.
This is on top of potential network controlled usage just like how off-peak hot water systems have worked for almost 70 years now to control peak loads on the grid.
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But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.
Power tool batteries don't weigh hundreds of kilograms, aren't the size of a refrigerator, and aren't a HV safety hazard.
Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.
Come now, Dave. Your car is barely bigger than a kitchen refrigerator. The battery is more a like a mini beer fridge.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Nissan_Leaf_012.JPG)
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Apparently people have never heard of fuel containers, pump trunks or gravity fed fuel tanks.
99.9% of the population is 100% reliant upon the electric petrol pump at their location petrol station.
It's high, but that's an exaggeration. And it's only true MOST of the time, like commuting around the city. But you completely ignore rural areas, and remote commercial and industrial operations, or just venturing away from civilisation. The point is having options and flexibility. An battery only car is as good as tree stump outside of the electrical grid.
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EVs , combined with smart charging, actually benefit the grid, as they can help balance load.
Please explain. To me it seems that every day at 5pm there will be a gigantic spike in demand.
EV's have charge timers in them. You can set it to switch on any time you like. And also set it so that the timer changes depending upon your location, e.g. work and home.
This is on top of potential network controlled usage just like how off-peak hot water systems have worked for almost 70 years now to control peak loads on the grid.
I don't know about you, but if it was my only means of transportation, then I would want it charged ASAP. I don't need a dead car sitting in the driveway.
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From the proclamations I hear by Dave and others, I know that there's one main reason people buy electric cars: to tell other people that they bought an electric car.
I get it. It's an exciting and cool new toy. But these initial reactions are not interesting. Make a video in 10 years time (if you still have it), when you're not trying to justify your purchase, and then tell us why you're still glad you bought one.
Yes, there certainly are limited practical applications, but it's still mostly a novelty. We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.
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Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.
Of course, and it's been tried, and the enthusiasm for it just isn't there.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/ (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/)
The thing is, people don't really like going to petrol stations, and it stands to reasons they won't like going to battery swap stations either.
When you own an EV you realise it's innately satisfying about coming home or going to work or going to the shopping centre or pub and plugging in your EV, instead of having to go somewhere specific just to charge it.
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For those that can't make up their minds, or want the best of both worlds: Plug-in Hybrid! :D
You can't beat the flexibility of that, in my view. That's what I'm going for with the next car replacement.
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From the proclamations I hear by Dave and others, I know that there's one main reason people buy electric cars: to tell other people that they bought an electric car.
Wrong.
I get it. It's an exciting and cool new toy. But these initial reactions are not interesting. Make a video in 10 years time (if you still have it), when you're not trying to justify your purchase, and then tell us why you're still glad you bought one.
Go join an EV forum and you'll have your answer.
I've been on EV forums for years and know many EV owners, many have even built their own from scratch in the 2000's before all the hoopla.
I have never heard single one of them, even more than a decade later say they regret it or they wouldn't do it again. Not a single one.
Yes, there certainly are limited practical applications, but it's still mostly a novelty. We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.
You are becoming more demonstrably wrong every single year.
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Got a fuel pump at home?
Also, I don't see dependence on the electrical grid as a good thing.
No electrical grid? No pumps 50m from your house. Next daft argument?
It's not a super-daft point... some parts of the world (even civilised parts) have power outages that can last up to 2 weeks, e.g. after a storm or a hurricane (which occur with boring regularity in some areas).
But, the risk of being immobilized due to grid failure can be mitigated with a generator, or perhaps a PHEV is a smarter solution in those areas where power is unreliable.
Pro Tip: Petrol pumps don't work without the power grid either.
Fair point - but many petrol stations around here have generators and remain open in the aftermath of a storm. If there's one thing those guys have enough of, it is petrol to run a genny! :D
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Certainly there are different consideration but not insurmountable I think. There are forklifts batteries with more energy than a Nissan leaf. If we can make automated car washes and car parks, then we can make battery stations. The driver need never touch it . Gasoline can be dangerous too, yet someone how manage to use it daily.
Of course, and it's been tried, and the enthusiasm for it just isn't there.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/ (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/06/nio-has-completed-500000-ev-battery-swaps/)
The thing is, people don't really like going to petrol stations, and it stands to reasons they won't like going to battery swap stations either.
When you own an EV you realise it's innately satisfying about coming home or going to work or going to the shopping centre or pub and plugging in your EV, instead of having to go somewhere specific just to charge it.
That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
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For those that can't make up their minds, or want the best of both worlds: Plug-in Hybrid! :D
You can't beat the flexibility of that, in my view. That's what I'm going for with the next car replacement.
It's a very attractive compromise. And I think it's why the worlds biggest and smartest auto maker is only selling hybrids. They're not going to gamble on a fad.
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[...] We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.
Somebody has to be the pioneers... back in the day when petrol cars began to replace horses and buggies, there were likely people saying that these newfangled, unreliable rich man's toys will never catch on! :D
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A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?
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[...] We are still far away from widespread use. Especially by the commercial sector, and not just fanatical consumers.
Somebody has to be the pioneers... back in the day when petrol cars began to replace horses and buggies, there were likely people saying that these newfangled, unreliable rich man's toys will never catch on! :D
Yes, and the pioneers were quite wealthy, and they still kept the horse and buggy parked in the stables.
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That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid! :palm:
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many have even built their own from scratch
well that's true fanaticism.
You are becoming more demonstrably wrong every single year.
I would hope so!
I want it to succeed. I would love an electric vehicle and I believe that they have enormous potential. I just think that right now they are throwing us bones and hoping we bite.
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A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?
Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.
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That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid! :palm:
I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.
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many have even built their own from scratch
well that's true fanaticism.
So are your posts here.
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That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid! :palm:
I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.
Then just wait and let all those other EV owner you're disparaging help drive the market forward instead of endlessly complaining about it :palm:
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Come now, Dave. Your car is barely bigger than a kitchen refrigerator. The battery is more a like a mini beer fridge.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Nissan_Leaf_012.JPG)
Your ability to do volumetric guesstimating is embarrassing, don't give up your day job.
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many have even built their own from scratch
well that's true fanaticism.
So are your posts here.
Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.
If building your own EV is fanatical, are we all electronic fanatics? Does that mean we shouldn't have opinions and our knowledge is corrupted?
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A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?
Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.
If you own a gas car then you SHOULD carry a small gas can in the trunk. I always have.
It's happened to me ands many people. You walk or hitch a ride to the nearest station with my gas can, or call someone who can bring some gas. Many people have gas cans for their mowers and whatnot. Various roadside assistance providers can quickly bring gas too.
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
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many have even built their own from scratch
well that's true fanaticism.
So are your posts here.
Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.
He's trolling at this point.
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A thought just occurred to me. What if your battery runs out in the middle of nowhere? There are always unimaginable situations, but lets say the nearest charging station has gone offline or something. Is the tow truck the only option?
Same risk as a petrol car, and same consequences. Let's say you are driving in a rural area and you were relying on the next town having a petrol station, only to find it out of petrol or broken down, you are just as screwed.
With both EV and ICE you can try and find someone local who has either charge or petrol. I'd wager it's maybe easier to find a local who will let you borrow their power point than it is to find a local who has spare petrol in cans or wants to siphon their tank using their garden hose.
If you own a gas car then you SHOULD carry a small gas can in the trunk. I always have.
It's happened to me ands many people. You walk or hitch a ride to the nearest station with my gas can, or call someone who can bring some gas. Many people have gas cans for their mowers and whatnot. Various roadside assistance providers can quickly bring gas too.
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
As EVs become more popular, roadside assistance is likely to include some charging capability, whether it be leeching off their own batteries or having a dedicated pack for charging unfortunately empty vehicles. Or, yes, a generator.
It's also possible we'll start to see (maybe we have already seen.. I'm not in the market so I don't pay close attention) 'limp home' capability using the last dregs of the charge - 15-20 miles of restricted power and maximum speed if you manage to run it down. And well, yes, I've run a couple different cars into scavenging the bottom of the tank just this year from being unfamiliar with their real-world range.
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If building your own EV is fanatical, are we all electronic fanatics?
We all? I don't know. EEVBLOG forum visitors range anywhere from marginal interest to full blow obsession to professional. I suppose that an electronics fanatic would build something something like a mixed signal DSO + Network Analyzer by themselves from scratch. Not that there's anything wrong with fanatics. Credit where due!
Does that mean we shouldn't have opinions and our knowledge is corrupted?
Of course not. I never claimed that. You excel at jumping to conclusions.
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
More solutions for this problem are coming online, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DR3Sw2tZ4&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6DR3Sw2tZ4&feature=emb_logo)
It's a start...
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Your ability to do volumetric guesstimating is embarrassing, don't give up your day job.
Whatever you say. My kitchen fridge wouldn't fit under the back seat like that.
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That is completely understandable! And if I had one then I would charge it at home at every opportunity. I don't think people SHOULD have to go to a station. I just think the option should be there, because the alternative (getting stranded) is unacceptable.
Then just buy a hybrid! :palm:
I would consider it, but as I said, I'm disappointed with the offerings so far.
Then just wait and let all those other EV owner you're disparaging help drive the market forward instead of endlessly complaining about it :palm:
I will wait for them with pleasure. And I will come here to discuss (not complain) what I think too.
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
Also, I've once seen a Youtube video where an empty Tesla was being towed by rope by small truck & they got back multiple KM of range after a few minutes due to through regenerative breaking.
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
More solutions for this problem are coming online, see here:
You could also solve this in the car software by having a setting that will only use say 90%-95% of your pack. i.e. force the user to keep a "reserve" to prevent them being idiots. Never include any of that reserve in the range calc or display etc.
To get the last 5-10% emergency reserve requires some convoluted menu procedure.
As I said, this is the exact same problem as ICE cars have, the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
Which requires petrol but never mind. How long would it take to charge until you can drive, say 100km?
(equivalent to around 10L of petrol in a modern ICE car)
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He's trolling at this point.
Right. Raising legitimate reservations is trolling. Comparing to existing solutions is trolling.
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the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
Right because you always have absolute control over every aspect of your situation. Unforeseen circumstances never arise.
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
Which requires petrol but never mind. How long would it take to charge until you can drive, say 100km?
(equivalent to around 10L of petrol in a modern ICE car)
Total elimination of fossil fuels is not necessary (or likely practical for the foreseeable future). Drastic reduction, on the other hand..
10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that and my current (admittedly diesel) will do over twice that. Just scaling numbers to anything but fat SUVs for reference.. But anyway, that much is liable to take a fair while longer than emptying a jerry can, yes.
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10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that
Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
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10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that
Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.
I wouldn't call ~5.5l/100km fantastic, but it's better than a fat and almost entirely empty SUV or a full size saloon with a V8 for one man and his jacket.. I could get it down to about 8l/100km if I felt like being heavy footed, 10 would have involved pretending I have a three speed gearbox (I often pretended it was only four due to a worn gate annoying me..).
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).
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Careful Dave, he'll take it personally.
Who is taking things personally? I've been personally called daft, a troll, accused of endlessly complaining, and my guesstimating has been shamed. I can take it of course, but so far all I did was talk about cars.
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ven Dave doesn't have all the clues yet. Took me awhile. Tesla S in May 2017. 1st month, charged off garage 120v outlet. 5 mph of range. Called electrician, Quoted 125.00 if I got the proper materials to put in a 50A 240 volt what would be called a RV or welder outlet. I think 32mph of range. Is what Tesla recommended at the showroom, (not a dealership). and in the booklet.
I looked up. garage ceiling has 20 amp 120v for garage doors.
wired up a box to plug in to 15a and 20 amp to the rv plug box i built. 12mph range, been good enough for the almost 4 yrs.
, wall is 15 amp 120v. each has leg one each side of 240V to our house. In USA a 15 amp is really code for 13 amp, which i set car at.
each morning, about 300 miles of range available.
Cost? haven't seen anything we can figure, maybe 20.00 doll hairs a month?
, it is lost in the dithering of using a/c or cleaning electric oven how long my 500 watt plasma is on, etc.
NO MAINTENANCE visit to dealer (no dealers) no annoying car ads. , oil, exhaust, emission inspections, no acetone stench in garage when starting... on and on.
of course the hate. Dave won't get that in his car. I tell wife not to park by pickup trucks, you, know, oh! my truck door dinged your car, oops!
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the problem lies with the human doing calculations and planning.
Right because you always have absolute control over every aspect of your situation. Unforeseen circumstances never arise.
I'm saying the exact problem can happen equally to both EV's and ICE vehicle.
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An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).
The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.
b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.
c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.
Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
But that doesn't mean the car gets scrapped; it more likely gets a new owner. And some brands (like Toyotas) are so in demand they get exported to lower wage countries (Easten Europe, Africa) where the repairs are still economically viable.
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I didn't run the exact numbers on it but the average car roughly needs 20 years or so to reach 300k km given normal use (say 15k km per year). Replacing a car every 20 years on average doesn't seem excessive to me. 500k km would stretch the lifetime of a car to nearly 35 years. Meanwhile safety features and environmental regulations, etc advance as well. And there is the economic part of it as well. Cars do rust and wear so the entire car would need to be much more expensive to reach such a long service life. 300k km seems to be the optimal spot.
People change cars also (and often solely) because their lifestyle changes. Change locations, change jobs, have kids, etc presents different needs.
But that doesn't mean the car gets scrapped
Sure. Didn't say they did. The point is that's one of the huge reasons people are on the lookout to change to a new car.
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An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).
The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.
b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.
c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.
Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
Now you are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase. Hint: going down-hill needs going up-hill first. ;)
Besides that an ICE hybrid offers the same advantages for energy regenerating without needing to worry about range. Last but not least ICE cars have warning lights (and beepers) to alert you the fuel is getting low after which you can typically drive at least another 80km. I get that in Australia running out of fuel in the middle of nowhere is an issue. In Europe however there is a gas station along the highway every 40km to 60km and there will be a big sign besides the road if there isn't (but these are very rare).
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a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.
The Holden Commodore has a notorious fault with the fuel pump. The pump assembly contains a small reservoir and a check valve so that the fuel pump is able to supply fuel to the high pressure side of the fuel system as the fuel level in the tank falls well below the top of the pump.
What typically happens before 100,000kms is the check valve fails thereby negating the effectiveness of the fuel pump reservoir and you begin to rely on the sloshing around of petrol in the tank to prime the pump (which is supposed to be submerged in fuel).
When that happens, the analog fuel gauge is still showing 1/4 tank left. The dash's not-so-smarts assures you that you still have 120+kms 'to go'. The fuel warning light is designed to illuminate at about less than 40kms or so.
And yet, whether or not you have been driving like Fangio, chances are good you are SOL.
Whilst I realise that these cars are nearing EOL, the fault starts to occur closer to the manufacture date rather than the junk date. But when these cars were made, most were in a significant market share at the time of purchase. And it's just one model that I happen to be intimately familiar with. I'll bet that this sloppy technology is in many other cars too.
What is annoying is that mechanics see the fault and mis-diagnose it as intermittent ignition spark controller, another common, heat-related fault in this model.
:horse:
What I'm interested to see how the next 10 or 20 years of the electric car will affect the repairibility of these things.
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An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
At that sort of rate? About two, two and a half hours. With the pack mentioned earlier, from a quick video skim, an hour or thereabouts. That may or may not be faster than a tow (response times hugely variable). But it's early days and both the fixed charging infrastructure and the emergency charging solutions are still developing.
Also, that's considering normal driving consumption, with a limp home mode range should be extended (and therefore charging time for that range reduced).
The EV actually has several advantages over the ICE cars (that I am aware of, maybe some advanced modern ICE cars have this):
a) The GPS is intimately tied into the range calculation. So you get warning if you try and drive somewhere that it knows you can't make. No forgetting to look at the petrol gauge and then running out, which would, I'd bet, be the biggest reason people run out of petrol.
b) Regen breaking. I just came back from a trip the blue mountains and coming back home I averaged 1kWk/100km consumption down the mountains. For reference, this is 10 times less consumption that I get around town. So if you happen to have lots of downhill to get somewhere you can get vastly more range than you would in an ICE car.
c) Different driving modes that force the car to use less energy from the battery and/or more aggressive regen to charge the battery.
Given these things, along with just more general awareness of potential range issues, it could be argued that you are perhaps less likely to get stuck somewhere in an EV.
Now you are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase.
Err, no, simply discussing facts about the range issue being discussed.
Hint: going down-hill needs going up-hill first. ;)
Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
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Disclaimer: I have a conflict of interest in this application space but no connections to any of the products or companies I mention.
10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that
Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.
An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?
7kW might be a bit high for an "average" genset and also much higher in cost than a jerry can. Battery based EV recharge rescue tends to be capable of higher power density but costs are definitely beyond both a genset or jerry can, more comparable to a towing service.
Regen tow recharging is a known and working practice used by more "enthusiast" level EV users but not recommended by manufacturers and definitely presents some dangers.
Sparkcharge claims 20kW (https://insideevs.com/news/411676/sparkcharge-portable-ev-charger-roadside-assistance/) so about 20km in 10min of charging (3.3kWh, 7km/kWh), linearly scaling from there of course. Higher speeds are feasible but not on the market yet it seems; this concept stage (?) solution (https://lightningsystems.com/lightning-mobile/) offers 80kW so that'd be 80km in 10min. Generally EVs are "meant to be" towed on flat beds to avoid regen overloads so you can imagine the process of loading-securing takes 5 min then freeing-unloading takes another 5 min at least. In this flat bed towing demo video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rDDlTE5img (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rDDlTE5img)
The operator seems fairly proficient and process of loading and unloading the vehicle for towing takes about 15min. If you just need to get home (or any destination where you can recharge) then you also save time spent needing to detour to a servo (gas station) to fully refuel. Pretty fair to say for most people living in most cities it will be time saving compared to towing, depending on how much of a detour getting to a servo is could also be equal or better than using a jerry can. There's also the possibility of tow companies just getting this equipment as added service and recharging vehicles while being towed.
Like other people have said, EVs really aren't at a disadvantage to ICEs car in any way for the majority of people. Fair, maybe for some they aren't. Maybe you've got some different circumstances living in an area with less capable infrastructure where petrol could be more reliable but its really stretching to say "Electric cars are still immature technology". EVs are at the level of being proven, reliable and practical right now. Your examples of unreliable grid, long distance travelling and emergency situations aren't applicable to most people you claim "are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase" if anything you're doing much more mental gymnastics to try find cases where ICE is better.
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?
Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?
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Disclaimer: Again, potential conflicts of interest for me in this area.
People in this thread seem to be under estimating longevity of EV batteries. Crowd sourced data on battery degradation of Tesla vehicles (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) shows much less than 20% degradation after 200 000 miles. Here's repair and maintenance costs for a 400 000 mile (640 000 km) Tesla (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2020/02/this-tesla-model-x-has-driven-over-400000-miles-here-are-all-the-parts-that-had-to-be-replaced/) which total up to ~$US29,000. Search "400000 mile tesla" if you want more sources and discussion.
For people speculating on the development of a million mile lifetime battery, this video has a well researched analysis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvvJ5u1Sdo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtvvJ5u1Sdo)
To put it shortly: million mile batteries already exist but not that they'd actually use them.
Also on battery swapping and batteries as a service, not done in the west but already thing in China, not planned or speculated but already happening:
Bloomberg "China Embraces Battery-Swapping System for Electric Vehicles" 17 Jan. 2020 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-17/china-embraces-ev-battery-swap-technology-tesla-has-cooled-on)
...BAIC BluePark New Energy Technology Co., which offers the service [battery swapping]. The state-owned BAIC Group, and its various entities, including BAIC JEV, is reportedly the second-biggest seller of EVs in China. Its numerous partnerships include Daimler and Magna.
BAIC BluePark said that it set up 187 battery-swap stations in 15 Chinese cities for 16,000 electric-powered taxis. And last year, it announced plans for 3,000 swap stations, enough to supply a half-million electric vehicles by the end of 2022.
Electrek
Source: Electrek "EV battery swapping is dead in US, but China wants to make it happen" 17 Jan. 2020 (https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/) (mostly a copy of the Bloomberg)
The Driven "Nio slashes ticket price of EVs with “battery-as-a-service” offer" 24 Aug. 2020 (https://thedriven.io/2020/08/24/nios-battery-as-a-service-drops-ev-price-by-14500/)
Come on guys, it takes maybe 15 min to do some research and expand your available info instead for parroting uncited hearsay :palm:
Edit: I should have sent 15min reading all the comments in the thread more carefully and seeing people have posted similar sources already :palm:
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I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?
Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
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Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?
Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.
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I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?
Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
This is exactly why even defence is swapping to EVs.
“Electrification allows you to have access to readily available power to distribute not only for the vehicle but for all those different systems that I have.”-Lt. Gen. Eric Wesley
Defence News "US Army ventures down path to electrify the brigade" 17 March 2020 (https://www.defensenews.com/2020/03/16/us-army-ventures-down-path-to-electrify-the-brigade/)
National DEFENCE "Army Driving Forward with Electric Vehicle Plans" 21 Feb 2019 (https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/2/21/army-driving-forward-with-electric-vehicle-plans)
Edit: To be fair, there are other reasons given for swapping to EVs like obsolesce of ICE but there is a major tactical advantage in having vehicles where energy can be generated on-site without having to rely on supply chains. The three major reasons provided in the first article in the order they are presented are: Obsolesce of ICE, Extended Independent Operations, and Improved Reliability. The first and last both apply to regular civilian use too.
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Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?
Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
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I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?
Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)
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You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
On a major road trip if you really wanted to haul arse though, ICE would still win for convenience. But that's really it's only advantage. Topping up from zero to 500km in 3 minutes won't be touched by EV's for the foreseeable future.
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I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?
Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)
The tanks would already be dry from the initial panic ;D
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But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?
Generator.
Also, I've once seen a Youtube video where an empty Tesla was being towed by rope by small truck & they got back multiple KM of range after a few minutes due to through regenerative breaking.
Hah, that's actually pretty clever.
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Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out. More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!
The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard. Everything was strictly cash only! Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments. When the sh!t really hits the fan, the economy reverts to cash...
Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch. Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners...
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Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less. This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
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Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.
The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not, it's just continually pissed away (at varying rates)
It's a very well known practical benefit of EV's.
I'll challenge anyone with their ICE car to come to the blue mountains and we'll have a race. Both cars drained to have 30km of range left. Drive from Katoomba to my lab in Baulkham Hills (an 85km journey). Betcha I make and your ICE car doesn't.
How do I know? I've taken the measurements, I've done the math, you'll be the one walking.
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The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.
Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.
EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.
This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?
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The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.
Oh FFS :palm:
Follow the damn thread.
We are talking about going down a MOUNTAIN.
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You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.
Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.
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Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out. More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!
The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard. Everything was strictly cash only! Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments. When the sh!t really hits the fan, the economy reverts to cash...
Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch. Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners...
I don't know if they learned from it or not, but about 12 years ago a big storm rolled through here, it came after months of heavier than usual rain and knocked down scores of large trees causing major damage. It took down several large transmission lines and knocked out multiple substations and my power was out for 10 days, something that was unheard of before that. Anyway not anticipating being without power for more than a couple days I had idled my car and used a large inverter to run my gas furnace, charge up batteries and other stuff on a number of occasions and eventually I was getting pretty low on gas. As it turned out, I had a good deal of trouble getting more as none of the gas stations in town had power, nor did most of the ones in neighboring towns, the few that did had huge lines and rapidly sold out. I didn't want to run out of gas driving around looking for more so I mostly stayed home for a few days until they had eventually patched up enough that the power was on in part of the town and some patches of surrounding areas.
I remember being surprised at the time that so few gas stations had any sort of backup generator. It wouldn't take much to power even just one pump, a few lights and the cash register but most had nothing at all. Generators were in short supply too since so many people ran out and bought them, there were even problems with people stealing them right out of driveways, some even while they were running.
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You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.
Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.
That situation (driving down a mountain) is one where a hybrid car doesn't work fantasticall well either - its relatively small battery quickly fills up to the max, and then you are stuck with friction braking (or engine braking mode) all the way down 90% of the long hill.
This kind of thing is another reason to prefer a PHEV or EV over a "plain" hybrid.
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Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece). You've driven through a mountain range before right? Any normal journey through mountainous regions especially like the Blue Mountains is lots and lots of winding roads up and down the side of the mountain until you get to the coast. Here, let's do some math on a hypothetical situation since everyone is so enthused by the idea of it:
ICE car and EV both start off with same amount of range R_ICE=R_EV= 20km.
Let's start them off down a 10km section of road that's all down hill. You can't just freewheel it down the whole way, you need to brake to stay at a sensible speed and take turns. The ICE car can just engine brake the whole way and thus not use any fuel, it's range remains the same. The EV uses regen braking instead. Let's be conservative, give the ICE car an easy game and say the EV recovers range equal to only 10% (literature reports 16% to 70% (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/regenerative-braking#:~:text=Regenerative%20braking%20allows%20the%20range,they%20brake%20gradually%20or%20severely.)) so it gains 1km range.
R_ICE=20km
R_EV=21km
Since they're both "equally efficient" and we're directly comparing them directly based on a "range" energy consumption and capacity they both drive up an equal grade section for 10 km and both use up 10km of range.
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=11km
Then another equal grade down hill section for 20km this time
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=13km
up 5km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=8km
Down 20km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=10km
up 5km again
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=5km
The ICE makes it to the crest and starts rolling down to the next section but has no fuel. Onto the next section down for 10km
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=6km
Almost at the end and there's a 1km uphill section. The ICE car is out of fuel and can't go up but the EV still has range.
R_ICE=Dead 1km back
R_EV=5km
Then the last 10km of the trip down hill.
R_ICE=Dead 11km back
R_EV=Made it with 6km spare
Let's recap that journey. Both cars drove along the same undulating mountain road consistent of equally graded up and down section with a net downhill run. In total 10+10+20+5+20+5+10+1+10=91 km, with an uphill total of 10+5+5+1=21 km and a downhill total of 10+20+20+10+10=70 km. The EV car despite its terrible regen braking manged to recover some of the gravitation potential energy and made the 91km journey with 6km to spare despite starting with 20km of "range". The ICE car also manged to go quite far starting with the same 20km of "range" but got left behind 11km back when it was out of fuel and couldn't climb a short up hill section. In the end the EV made it with range to spare but the ICE car didn't. You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.
The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.
The advantage of ICE cars is, despite their terrible efficiency, they have higher energy capacity because fossilised, refined plankton juice is much higher energy density than li ion batteries. The problem there is EVs as they are have more than enough range for everyone apart from people that need to cover a domestic flight level of distance while barely stopping e.g. truckies.
This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
Well here's the talk. I guess you should walk ;)
And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.
Hyundai Elantra (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/small-cars/elantra):
-Kerb Weight: 1420 kg
-Length:4620 mm
-Width:1800 mm
Hyundai Ioniq Electric (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/eco/ioniq/electric):
-Kerb Weight: 1575 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm
Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/cars/eco/ioniq/hybrid):
-Kerb Weight: 1467 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm
So 1575/1420=1.109. So 11% more weight at most for a comparable car? That's gonna cause rolling resistance increase that out weighs any energy recovery?
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Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.
EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.
This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?
How is this even relevant to proving an EV will lose? We're comparing to an EV to an ICE car driving down a mountain not some hypothetical suicidal billy cart freewheeling down a mountain. All you've said is an EV isn't going to convert GPE perfectly back into KE. So what? Of course its going to have a below unity energy return who said it wouldn't. An ICE car has an energy return of ZERO! :palm:
You're either trolling or in complete denial trying to change the question posed to something meaningless and irrelevant.
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Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.
The whole case reminds me of the story from someone who took an exam for flying hot air balloons:
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter a thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast and fly above the thunderstorm
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast again
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter yet another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop more ballast again
Examiner: where do you get that ballast from?
Candidate: from the same place your thunderstorms are coming from
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Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
[...] if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. [...]
As a long time hybrid owner, I can confirm that the mountain driving experience is not great in a hybrid, because of the limited battery size.
- Going down a long hill, the regen fills the battery after a very short time, then you are back on friction brakes or engine braking and no better off than an ICE.
- Going up hill, I have experienced situations where the battery gets down to the low water mark and the car reverts to ICE-only operation. You are worse off than a regular ICE car, because the ICE in a hybrid is tuned for economy (Atkinson cycle) and depends on the electric system to "top up" the torque because a hybrid car's ICE has low torque and low power compared to a normal car.
- The third factor is battery temperature - in a hilly area with a loaded vehicle, the constant regen/discharge cycles heat up the battery, to the point where the computer has had enough and starts permitting only limited battery power due to rising temperatures. Again, you are back to a low performing vehicle.
I am sure that all three alternatives - PHEV, EV, and plain ICE - would cope with both the up- and down hill scenario better than a hybrid!
Where a hybrid excels, in my view, is in dense traffic / urban driving, where the "swings" in the state of charge of the battery are not so big.
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@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.
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@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.
It is a Ford. Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE. Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).
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Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.
Did you actually read the whole post let alone the conclusion?
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You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.
The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.
The point stands that EVs are unequivocally more efficient and economical than ICE cars. Mountain driving is a situation in which the difference in efficiency is exacerbated to an extreme level due to regen braking. Two vehicles being near flat at the top of the mountain isn't a normal occurrence but illustrates the real difference between the two technologies. Surely you can understand the context?
Edit: If you want something to argue, ICE vs Electric in trucks would be something actually worth discussion but that's getting off topic from Dave's commuter EV and the general hare-brained nonsense against EVs in this thread so far.
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@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.
It is a Ford. Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE. Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).
OK, That is interesting to know. I'm planning to get a hybrid as a next car (hydrogen isn't off the table though but needs some serious investigation first).
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
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The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.
As I mentioned, as tested in my EV, I got 1kWh/100km consumption coming back down the mountain from Blackheath to Penrith. Normal around city is an order of magnitude higher at 10-11kWh/100km. And I wasn't being frugal, driving it in Normal mode not Eco. And as you mentioned, lot's of up's and down, lights etc, it's not just a cannonball downhill run.
This means that in practice I could have left Blackheath with 40km of range left and still made the 95km trip back to Baulkham Hills, because the part down the mountain used almost zero net energy, leaving that 40km of range for the flat drive back home.
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
Is there much point in making a full hybrid car if it doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine? If you are adding electrics to a conventional gas or diesel engine, I would think its more cost effective to just implement a 48V mild hybrid style KERS, like Volvo added to most of its cars this year.
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.
That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too... in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
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Not forgetting the cars that switch off the engine at the lights. Which, of course, is an abomination.
:rant:
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Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
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Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
I think this is at least in part because last year, the Kona was one of the most desirable EVs around because of the long range and great reviews, hence the wait.
Then a whole load of other new EVs started appearing, some with shorter leadtimes, including the Tesla model 3, so as well as some Kona preorders getting cancelled, there was a lot more competition. I think production also increased when they opened a new factory in the Czech Republic.
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.
That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too... in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.
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Kia / Hyundai use Atkinson cycle ICE on their hybrids too.
A lot of new cars are using the Atkinson cycle in order to stay competitive with EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle#Vehicles_using_Atkinson-cycle_engines
I like the idea of using variable valve timing to flip between Atkinson and "full power" mode.
That idea would actually be beneficial on a hybrid car too... in fact, it would solve pretty much all of the real-world downsides that I've personally encountered (mainly, the battery gets to the low water mark and the car becomes "weak").
If your experience is limited to Ford then I'm wondering how other hybrids behave. We have 2 Fords (not hybrids) so I'm very aware that Ford is cutting corners to make their cars as cheap as possible (leading to various issues). Maybe this corner cutting leads to a 'lesser experience' in your car.
Why would you expect any of the other Atkinson based hybrids to be any different? When the Atkinson engine isn't supported by electric torque and power where you think a sudden surge for acceleration is going to come from?
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Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
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Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.
Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.
New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.
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Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor... I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.
I like Ford for economical long term car ownership. When I take my old Ford to the dealer for its 10K mile services, it usually costs around $30 - $40 depending on how many filters etc. they feel like changing. Try that with pretty much any other car marque? A good friend of mine has a BMW 5 series of a similar age, it never costs less than $600 for a service, it leaks oil like a sieve, and burns a quart between oil changes - but it does handle like a dream and does not look cheap inside. Horses for courses? :D
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Its amazing how fast things can change. A few months ago the Hyundai Kona Electric was on a 16 months waiting list, and a good second hand one was fetching above new price. Now it looks like they can't shift them, as our local Hyundai dealer had 3 pre-registered Kona Electrics for sale. Pre-registered cars are (I think) a UK thing. When a dealer has poor sales, they are in danger of lower discounts from the maker. Sometimes it cheaper for them to register a few cars in their own name, and immediately sell them at a considerable discount, rather that record low sales and pay more per car. What it definitely means is they have gone from 16 months waiting time to excess stock in a very short time.
A couple of things to unpack there. A dealer here cannot really register a car until it's first owner comes along, the exception being a 'demonstrator' car and that's for upper end cars and they often get bestowed the dealership's special license plates as a gimmick.
From your info I assume you are describing how things work in Australia. I did say that I think the pre-registered car thing is particularly a UK thing. In the UK dealer demo cars are frequently registered with the dealer being the owner. If you drive one of their cars with a staff member in the car you will drive it with special licence plates, called trade plates, on the car. The dealer's overall insurance covers you and them under these circumstances. If the dealer lets you have a demonstrator for longer, to drive on your own, they will give you a registered car under conditions that are basically a short term rental, for which no fee is charged. They have to have demonstrators of all the cars they offer. Who would buy a car without trying one? The pre-registered cars are registered with the dealer as the owner. When you buy one of these you are buying a second hand, but unused, car.
Once a car is registered, the clock is ticking in regards to at least two levels of insurance, the car property insurance and a compulsory third party injury insurance required on all cars to be considered road-worthy. On top of that, there is a road tax tacked onto the registration fee which isn't insignificant.
These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.
New cars for sale with a manufacture date on a previous calendar/financial year are called "run-out" models and the lower price does eventually attract a sucker. What the dealer doesn't tell you is that when you re-sell the car a few years later, for pricing purposes the car will always be judged on the manufacture date. So you could be trying to sell a car in 4 years, but you might actually be selling a 5 year old car.
If you are the type to change your car every year, you need to be careful about this kind of thing. However, if you keep your cars for several years the difference in resale prices narrows, and the initial large saving looks like a bargain. When there has been a massive change in the car the 5 year old one sometimes gets a better price, if the 4 year old one turns out to be a stinker. Nothing is clear cut about resale values. If they sell too many cars on leases one year, as the leases expire the car values plummet due to the abundance. That suppresses new sales, when people see the awful resale values. Rapid increases in sales have a sting in the tail for the vendor down the road. Life is so complicated. :)
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Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
He said he gets issues as the battery exhausts or becomes full. No amount of battery temperature control will affect that. It happens in all hybrids, depending how they are driven. The first time I rented a Prius I ran into this sudden loss of urge just on a freeway, after repeated bursts of acceleration ran down the battery. I imagine its quite an issue in very hilly areas.
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These are your own local conditions, that may not apply in other countries. They don't apply in quite the way you describe them in the UK.
That's why I enjoy the back and forth. Given the opportunity, car makers will dump the shittiest car they possibly can on either market.
What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?
Yikes.
:scared:
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
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It's funny to hear people talk about resale value on a car, it's never something I've taken into consideration, I always assume the resale value will be scrap value because it'll be used up. The only time I've ever sold cars they were surplus to my needs and sold for more than I paid for them. The only time I've ever replaced a car was when somebody hit me and totaled it. If you take care of it a car can be kept going indefinitely, even an expensive repair is cheaper than payments on a new car.
A car is not an investment, it's a depreciating asset. Pay what it's worth to you for the use you'll get out of it, if you sell it for anything at all when it's worn out that's just a bonus.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Sounds a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Sounds a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.
:o
:scared:
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Makes me feel better about replacing an engine for 11k. Practically free.
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What I'm wary of is the re-sale value (if any) of these first(?) generation new fangled electric cars. I mean you can buy any car you want, but in a few years when cars start costing money, sure as shit the owners start to realise the true cost of the car.
EV's aren't really new fangled. Successful ongoing lines have been out for nearly a decade and similar EVs go back longer if you count less successful lines. You can find answers to most of your questions if you have a look around, stuff ain't exactly new.
Current new model EVs are direct second generations with third generations due soon, the "first generation" of current EV designs came around 2010. For example:
Nissan Leaf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf) first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2018
Chevrolet Volt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt) first gen MY 2011, second gen MY2016
There are of course similar EVs which go further back but their lines have been discontinued e.g. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV) (which is generally regarded as terrible) and less similar EVs even further back before li-ion tech but those are definitely irrelevant.
Depreciation seems to be all over the place however. The Tesla Model 3 has only depreciated and by 10.2% in 3 years which is ridiculously low compared to market averages. "Tesla Model 3 retains almost 90% of its value over 3 years, study shows" (https://electrek.co/2020/07/16/tesla-model-3-retains-90-percent-value-3-years-study/). The original study is here (https://www.iseecars.com/off-lease-car-deals-study). Other Teslas models also well keep their value much better than most cars but EVs from other manufacturers drop off pretty fast. From that above original study:
“Categorically, electric vehicles depreciate more than the average vehicle because resale values take into account the $7,500 federal tax credit and other state and local credits that were applied to these vehicles when they were bought new,” said [iSeeCars CEO Phong Ly]. “Because the technology of EVs changes at a rapid pace, obsolescence also plays a role in their dramatic depreciation as well as consumer range anxiety and lack of public charging infrastructure.” However, Tesla vehicles defy this trend and depreciate far less than the segment average.
That deprecation seems to be due to rapid developments in EVs and thus lower desirability of old EVs rather than old EVs costing too much to run in most cases. I think Teslas have an advantage due to their on going over the air updates, excellent battery lifetime and limited availability making them much more desirable than the old Leafs which had major problems with their battery design and their styling looking...not so sexy.
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
Plenty of studies looking at costs of ownership for EVs and deprecation. First party case study on maintenance costs for a Tesla Model S (https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-400000-miles-643737-kilometers) done by a company running a regional shuttle service has $US 19k after 400 000 miles which includes two under warranty battery swaps at 194k miles and 324k miles though this is a bit of an extreme case due to constant supercharger usage. In their latest service logs here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HqBIOtNsYPalG51nAw_nubgskv4TQPGx8WhPZO4a_U8/edit#gid=0), maintenance cost per mile is $US0.07/mile compared to their estimated $US0.22/mile for a similar luxury sedan (Lincoln Town Car). Costs of ownership (Maintenance, repair, fuel etc.) is well known to be much lower than ICE cars.
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
As for what happens when batteries need replacement. I did some digging in a previous thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nissan-leaf-as-home-energy-storage/). Replacement for a top of the line leaf battery is about $AU10,700 for a 40kWh battery direct from manufacturer (https://global.nissannews.com/ja-JP/releases/180326-04-j?source=nng&lang=ja-JP) with people getting quoted $AU10.5k for a 24kWh after labour from Nissan in Australia (http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?t=6077). Cost/kWh lifetime throughput was pretty comparable to a residential ESS powerwall system. Upfront cost per kWh capacity is also quite good. That being said this bloke got stiffed for $AU33k (https://autoexpert.com.au/videoblog/astonishing-30k-nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-bill) and more across the world also getting charged about ~$US33k for dealership battery replacements (https://insideevs.com/news/398483/35000-dollars-leaf-batteries-virgin-islands/). The difference appears to be to $10k is under a replacement program for out of warranty first gen leafs which are notorious crappy batteries (source (https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/#:~:text=Nissan%20Australia%20will%20exchange%20a,year%2F160%2C000km%20battery%20warranty.)) then $33k would be for a completely uncovered new battery? Again data on battery degradation, especially Tesla vehicles (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) shows battery degradation is unlikely to be what's letting you down.
Will that attract a amateur mechanic to attempt to swap out a battery with hundreds of watt-hours of capacity?
Not sure about the amateur and hundreds of Wh part (would probably blow up or not move if a <1000Wh battery was fitted) but after market battery replacement is already happening (https://insideevs.com/news/428315/ev-rides-nissan-leaf-new-battery/). "$2,500 to $3,500 for 24 kWh pack replacements"
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EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.
Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV. Edit: not in need of a new vehicle but in Dave's case the opportunity to get a new car free with a trade in nonetheless.
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EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.
Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV.
Except that in my case I wasn't actually in need of a new car, my 2014 Corolla was just fine. But the business instant asset tax writeoff ends at the end of this year, so it was tax advantageous to do it now.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.
As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
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Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.
Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor... I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.
Thanks for the clarification!
I like Ford for economical long term car ownership.
Not for all models but there are sweet spots in their line up indeed. The main reason I bought our Fords is due to low maintenance costs.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.
As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.
How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.
As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.
How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
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Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.
I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.
As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.
How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.
In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
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Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.
I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.
The open inverter forum (https://openinverter.org/forum/) has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.
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Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.
I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.
The open inverter forum (https://openinverter.org/forum/) has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.
All fun and games until someone loses an eye.
:scared:
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Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.
I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.
It might become illegal to mess with sealed batteries - perhaps breaking the seal makes them off-road use only, or something like that... you know what regulators are like!
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?
Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.
As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.
How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.
In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty. Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation. Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for you.
Owning a used car economically depends on (1) stuff not breaking so often, and (2) when something does break, cheap spares have to be available (preferably OEM spares... dealing with quality and fit issues with Brand-X replacement parts gets old real quick.) EVs just haven't been around long enough, in sufficient numbers, for the spares market (including recycled parts) to have become widely developed for them yet.
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One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Sounds a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.
:o
:scared:
I ended up buying an aftermarket pair of them for CAD$30 on Amazon, which turned out to be as good as the original ones that were damaged by the Sun over the years of parking the car outside.
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At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty. Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation. Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for you.
I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.
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OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
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At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty. Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation. Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for you.
I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.
I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting. - If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top! As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings... hard to see the point of it.
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OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
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OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
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I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting. - If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top! As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings... hard to see the point of it.
My dad bought a used Leaf about 5 years ago, he used it to commute to work until he retired. Sold it after he started living on his sailboat and had nowhere convenient to charge it. If I were still driving to work I'd likely have bought it from him but even when I was going into the office I always rode the bus. I drive so little now that the savings are insignificant even if electricity were free, I think I have filled my car 3 times this YEAR and most of the fuel I've burned has been the ~200 mile round trips to our cabin. For someone who commutes daily to their job, has multiple cars in the household and a garage or driveway to park in at home (a situation many millions of people have) a used Leaf still seems like it could be a pretty good deal. For those with different circumstances it may not make sense.
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I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
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If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
I'd bet borderline zero.
I suspect there will always be a niche demand for even a depleted range LEAF. There just aren't that many used EV's here, so they should eventually find buyers at a price.
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If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard. It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.
EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces.
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If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
But if you buy another 6 year old car there is a reasonable chance that it will have the same problem sooner or later at which point you're back where you started. It can be sensible to spend $10k putting a brand new battery into a car that is only worth $6k because at that point it has a brand new battery, the one major component that is likely to wear out or fail over time. I've never understood the mentality of not wanting to spend more repairing a car than the car is worth. With exception of certain collectible cars, you always spend more on any car than you can ever get out of it, it isn't an investment, you're paying money for transportation. If you spend $2k putting a replacement engine in a car that is worth zero and you drive it for several years you've come out ahead, even if you've technically invested a lot more than the value of the car into it. The only time this doesn't apply is if you already intend to replace the car soon, or if you get in an accident that totals it however in many cases insurance will account for money spent on major repairs as long as you can prove it.
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People are getting focused on battery degradation again but the Leaf is an example of a battery system done poorly. I posted it before in this thread but again, for a well done battery design degradation is minor (https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/) and range is good.
EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces.
Price of a hydrogen isn't much better. Toyota Mirai is $US58,550 (https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/) for a range of 508km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai#Fuel_economy_and_range) and others in a similar ball park compared to a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD for $48,190 (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/build/?modelyearId=401838241&submodel=Sedan&styleId=401839827&priceBreakdown) and a range of 568km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Specifications_table).
And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.
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I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard. It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.
They won't be 120km because old LEAF's are notorious for battery pack degradation. It's rare to find a "12 bar" battery.
10 or 11 bars is common. 10 bars instead of 12 means only about 75% of the capacity remains.
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And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.
Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
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And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.
Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Even the bus companies have not been able to make this work. Now that EV-buses are starting to prove themselves, the hydrogen horse has bolted, I feel.
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Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.
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Price of a hydrogen isn't much better. Toyota Mirai is $US58,550 (https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/mirai/) for a range of 508km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai#Fuel_economy_and_range) and others in a similar ball park compared to a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD for $48,190 (https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/build/?modelyearId=401838241&submodel=Sedan&styleId=401839827&priceBreakdown) and a range of 568km (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3#Specifications_table).
In California (pretty much the only place you can actually get a Mirai) you can get a Toyota approved second hand Mirai, just off lease, for $15k, bundled with $15k of free hydrogen. Gee, those things are popular.
Hyundai have just started listing a hydrogen powered SUV in the UK. I assume its connected to some UK government scheme, as it makes no commercial sense - no hydrogen stations == no potential sales. It looks like a fairly basic SUV, and its 70k pounds. What a bargain.
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There is very little to commend a hydrogen car compared to a regular HEV, PHEV, or EV.
The long term future seems highly likely to be EV dominated, with a sprinkling of liquid fuel for special purposes (might be ethanol... if we don't need so much of it).
I'd go for an ethanol-PHEV any day of the week! :D
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I don't know. That'd be roughly 3.5 TWh(avg 50kwh batteries per car and 70M cars a year) of capacity a year for new cars alone. Not that it's not possible but I don't think that'd be good for the world unless we have new batteries. How much earth would that require tearing up every year?
AFAIK we're only managing about 2TWh a year now and very very little of that is for cars.
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Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.
Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.
A hydrogen powered car, all else being equal, would be somewhat more compelling since it can 'recharge' at a station much quicker than an EV could. I don't think they are technically a very feasible option, but I'm not convinced the home charging issue completely eliminates a market for them, at least until EV charging infrastructure is more developed.
I really think this charging infrastructure issue for those who don't live in single-family homes is a major roadblock to widespread adoption of EVs as they become more of a commodity. Until now they've been mostly a luxury or niche product, but if they want to really break into the mainstream, someone's going to have to come up with a solution for the people who don't own the land they park their car on most of the time.
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Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.
How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
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Charging an EV at home is just the least objectionable place to charge. It means you made it home. Second would be at work which is a stable demand location so you can reasonably know whether you'll find a charger available. And thirdly is when you go to a shopping mall or some other public destination where you will spend sufficient time to charge, where you will enjoy the anxiety of not knowing if a charger will be available. It will be OK for a while and as demand soaks up free charge spaces then there is a wait for expansion to meet demand and so on it goes.
For all the people who will not have home charging stations like renters and apartment dwellers an EV is far less attractive.
What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.
Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.
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What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.
Its a real problem. Telsa charges people sitting idle at super chargers a fee (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/support/supercharger-idle-fee) if the the station is above 50% capacity, double if it's full. Super chargers are getting issues with over crowding so charging is also some of them are also limiting the amount of charge you can get (https://electrek.co/2019/05/24/tesla-limiting-supercharger-busy/), only up to 80% SOC so no slow last 20% current tapering and no end destination charging. Like any common resource, when there isn't enough to go around the less pleasant side of humanity starts to show (https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/9zwunv/supercharging_lines_are_battle_grounds/).
Then you have **ckheads ICE-ing charger spots (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/18/how-should-we-deal-with-ice-ing-superchargers/).
For all the people who will not have home charging stations like renters and apartment dwellers an EV is far less attractive.
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Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.
Also a known issue.
[Abstract]
...We find public charging infrastructure as alternative to home charging is only needed in some densely populated areas...
[Conclusion]
...
We conclude the following based on the aforementioned two perspectives.
1. Home charging is currently the most important charging option in most countries and will remain so in many countries with high home charging opportunity for users beyond current early adopters. In countries, or regions with low potential home charging availability, public charging infrastructure will be important as substitute.
2. Thus, public slow charging infrastructure as conditio sine qua non for PEV use will remain important mainly in some metropolitan areas, but not on national level - with few exceptions. For commuters, especially for those with no home charging option, a regular workplace charging is an important option.
...
Source: S. Á. Funke, F. Sprei, T. Gnann and P. Plötz, "How much charging infrastructure do electric vehicles need?
A review of the evidence and international comparison", Transportation Research Part D: Transport and Environment, vol. 77, pp. 224-242, 2019. Available Online (open access paper): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2019.10.024 (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.trd.2019.10.024)
Edit: That above study is a macroeconomic type study of charging infrastructure requirements and basically says the people people without access to home charging can be served using public slow (or fast) charging. It doesn't really go into the microeconomic cost impacts and desirability for individuals.
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Charging an EV at home is just the least objectionable place to charge. It means you made it home. Second would be at work which is a stable demand location so you can reasonably know whether you'll find a charger available. And thirdly is when you go to a shopping mall or some other public destination where you will spend sufficient time to charge, where you will enjoy the anxiety of not knowing if a charger will be available. It will be OK for a while and as demand soaks up free charge spaces then there is a wait for expansion to meet demand and so on it goes.
My friends who have them all rave about being able to charge at home. They plug in their car when they pull into the driveway the same way they plug in their phone when they go to bed. They never have to go out of their way to gas up, they never have to think about it, just plug in each night and the car is always full and ready to go by morning. It's seriously the number one thing they all brag about and I can see it, I hate getting gas, if I could plug in a hose that would dribble gasoline into my car while I slept and give me a full tank in the morning I'd be all over that, I'd happily give up the ability to fill up from empty in a few minutes at a gas station.
If you are not able to plug in at home then an EV is a lot less attractive, I would not even consider one if I had to rely on charging stations, liquid fuel makes more sense for those use cases. EVs are not going to replace *all* ICE powered cars and they don't need to, it's simply one more energy source available for those use cases where it is ideally suited.
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Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.
How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
This is already a thing : https://chargefairy.com/
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What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.
"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
Do people only buy an EV if they can charge at home? I expect that it is the case and this is what makes it look like home charging is appealing as opposed to least objectionable.
Or another destination like work. That would be a huge part of the buying decision.
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If you are not able to plug in at home then an EV is a lot less attractive, I would not even consider one if I had to rely on charging stations, liquid fuel makes more sense for those use cases. EVs are not going to replace *all* ICE powered cars and they don't need to, it's simply one more energy source available for those use cases where it is ideally suited.
Yes, I wouldn't have bought one if I had to rely on public charging infrastructure.
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What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.
"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates.
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.
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How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
This is already a thing : https://chargefairy.com/
£3.99 per week, $AU7.35 per week
£207.48 per year, $AU382.19 per year
10kWh per week, 520kWh per year
Up to 50kWh per week (extra £14) allowed. Up to 2600kWh per year
Up to £17.99 per week, £935.48 per year, $AU33.14 per week, $AU1723.27 per year
Seems pretty darn cheap. I wonder how they make up for labour costs of sitting around while they charge up each person's car or how they'd scale to significant numbers when they can only charge one car at a time per van. 10kWh will take at least 12 min just sitting there for 50kW charging (Max charging rate for a Leaf and Ioniq). Maybe get ~4 charges delivered in an hour at best, £15.96 = $AU29.40 per hour then if they're charging people at home outside business hours they need to pay penalty rates on top of the need to make back all the other operating and capital costs.
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I'm far from convinced that Charge Fairy is a viable business - places with little off-street parking are likely to be too crowded at night to park the van.
There is also the issue of how many cars are actually able to provide a way to unlock the charge flap while the car is locked without having the key - their website is very unclear on this.
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What actually happens at a public charge station when the battery is full? Is it OK to leave the car there until you are ready to drive away? Or are you expected to free it up asap.
"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates.
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.
While the UK car market is driven by the company car sector, the mass careful efficient usage of cars will never happen. e.g. the studies showing PHEVs are popular in the UK, because of tax credits, but few of them are ever plugged in.
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I'm far from convinced that Charge Fairy is a viable business - places with little off-street parking are likely to be too crowded at night to park the van.
There is also the issue of how many cars are actually able to provide a way to unlock the charge flap while the car is locked without having the key - their website is very unclear on this.
I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?
The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.
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I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?
The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.
Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.
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"EV etiquette" is that you free it up. And you program your car to release the lock when it's done.
And you get shamed on apps like PlugShare if you do it, people post photos of the offending vehicle and people keep track of serial offenders.
In teh Uk at least, EVs are now getting so popular, with lots of non-enthusiast owners, that etiquette isn't going to be much of a thing.
For example it's common to see people charging to 100% on rapids, which is a waste of time due to the reduced charge rates.
Many (most?) rapid chargers here have a pricing structure that discourages staying for long after charge has completed.
[/quote]
I suspect this will be adjusted as needed to keep things working. If people are lounging at charging stations it's little more than a firmware or pricing update to create means of discouraging this. People will drive miles to buy gas that is a few cents cheaper per gallon, if you jack up the price progressively on time spent on the charger people will get out as soon as they can.
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Living in a dense urban city, I don't expect to be able to charge an EV at home either any time soon. I live in rental housing, along with 100,000s of others in the city, and I don't foresee the street parking I use being littered with EVSEs in the next decade+. I have many friends who own condos, and while there has been some progress there, it is generally an expensive struggle to get EVSE's installed in their off-street parking as well, and often leads to conflict for spots, fights with council over who pays for the electricity and so on. There are many folks that don't have enough control over the infrastructure part of things to decide where they charge.
How much do you think you (or people like you) would pay to have an on-demand charging service? Either on a per call out basis or monthly subscription basis. For a monthly subscription fee, you'd get a regular (nightly or every second night) service that'd keep your EV topped up for regular use. You could pay extra for extra top-up or just use public charging if you go on a big trip rather than daily commuting.
To come up with that number I'd have to figure out the TCO versus an ICE, and decide if and how much premium I might be willing to accept to use an EV. I haven't gone too far down that rabbit hole. My mileage needs are relatively low (fairly short commute), so this might be a viable model for me, but that also means such a service wouldn't make too much money from me. Not sure how the economics work. Also seems an inefficient way, in man hours an electricity (assuming it's battery-based and not a truck with an ICE genny which just defeats the whole purpose).
There's another psychological factor that goes into it too, I think. If one buys an EV, they need to always have a plan to keep it charged for the lifetime of the vehicle. While they might have a solution to that today - say a shared charging station in their apartment's parking structure, or at work, a lot can change in one's personal life during that lifetime. I think this creates a mental barrier to purchasing an EV if you don't have charging infrastructure under your own control - you might need to move, or you might lose your job, etc. This will go down as charging infrastructure gets built out and more common, but for now it's a pretty big barrier for people in my kind of situation.
Though there are exceptions. A friend's colleague purchased a new Tesla without any real plan for keeping it charged. Ultimately she was unable to convince her strata council to allow a charger to be installed at her parking spot. Apparently once in a while she goes to a public charge point to top it up. So it seems to not be a barrier for everyone, but I wonder if she'd have made the same decision if she realized what the outcome was going to be. It sounds like she expected that council would permit her to have her own charger.
With more and more options for not owning a car at all (we have multiple options for both short and long term car shares here), I wonder if this is a market that should really just be encouraged to drop individual car ownership entirely, and at least the longer term car shares are in a pretty good position to be converted to EV. The short term ones have already built out pretty substantial parking infrastructure, so with minor adjustments to their approach (to make sure they don't get run down or out of reach of a charge point) can probably also be converted relatively easily.
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The psychology of a lot of people (undersigned included) is to own their car... so you can keep your stuff in it, not have to worry about what previous users did on the back seat or how sick they got driving home from a booze party, or the farmer using it after shoveling muck, etc. etc. etc. - there is much more to car ownership than transportation from A to B!
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I expect there will be a long term Charge Fairy like business, specifically to get people who let their battery exhaust moving again. If those Nissan vans can charge multiple vehicles per trip they must be packed full of batteries. I wonder how heavy they are? Have you see the kind of reinforced trucks battery makers use to deliver their products?
The people with the weakest ability to charge their own car are mostly the people with the least space for a van to park for an extended period to recharge their car. Also, the economics of having someone sit around waiting for a charge cycle to complete, before moving to the next car, seems bizarre.
Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.
The road service vehicles here, I think, will eventually need to carry what ever is needed to facilitate getting the car to the charging bay. They already bring petrol if you're out and if you aren't able to drive off, they send a tow truck.
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I certainly like owning my own car, for those reasons in addition to the ability to control precisely what happens with it, keep the seat adjusted just the way I like it, the cushion molded perfectly to my backside from hours of sitting in it. The radio is set up just the way I like it, with just the stuff I want to listen to on the thumb drive or CD, the HVAC settings are always the way I like them, mirrors adjusted, everything. It's mine and nobody else messes with it. I can upgrade, modify and customize the car any way I like, I can maintain it myself and always know it's done right, and I can drive the exact same car for 20 years if I want to.
Not everybody cares about those things though, there are certainly people who don't need to own a car, and indeed many of the urban dwellers I work with don't.
As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.
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I worked for a lady once who thought that the Merc sitting outside was old because it had 100,000kms nearly clocked up.
Ashtray full! Sell the car.
:)
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As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.
Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.
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Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.
It's clearly a real psychological thing, but it isn't rational. People buy and sell cars all the time, virtually everyone I know has had multiple cars in the time I've had the same one. Circumstances change, maybe not availability of fuel but people have kids, kids grow up and move out, they change jobs, buy or sell a travel trailer, boat or other thing and either need something bigger to tow it or no longer have a reason to be commuting in some huge thing. Gas prices rise and smaller cars become popular, they fall and massive SUVs are everywhere. Seeing this constant churn I just can't buy that most people have a big hangup about changing cars, they do it all the time, for reasons far more trivial than not being able to get fuel. it's just another irrational way of convincing themselves that something different than what they're used to won't work for them.
Some people DO avoid it, I mean I drove the same $500 car for 17 years and it was still in nice shape when it got totaled but I'm an edge case. I have multiple friends who went through at least 4 different cars in the same period I had that one, most weren't even due to a pressing need, just because they wanted something different.
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Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more.
This is why I jumped at the chance of trading in my Corolla for my new IONIQ when they gave me a good price for it.
I maybe could have gotten a bit more by selling it myself, but it would have been incredibly painful and time consuming, it would have cost me a lot more in time and effort than I could have potentially gotten in return.
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Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.
Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.
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Batteries don't make sense in that application, just mount a diesel genset in the back of a van. The idea is emergency use to get somebody to a proper charging station, and I doubt that charging a battery from utility power and transporting it somewhere to dump some of the charge into another battery is going to be greatly more efficient than just running a generator on site to charge the end user's battery.
Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
I can imagine this being a niche service too for some smart businesses that want to entice people in.
This would be a no-brainer for a petrol station owner - they often have a couple of parking spaces they could use for this. It is a kind of natural extension of their "energy business" too.
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As for the circumstances in the other post, circumstances change. Buying a car is not quite the major life commitment of something like buying a house. If your circumstances change you can sell the car and buy something more suitable. It's rarely financially advantageous to replace cars frequently but it doesn't have to be a major financial hit either. The key is to buy a car of similar age to the one you are replacing, the greatest depreciation hit is usually in the moment you drive it off the lot and it becomes a used car, followed by the first year or two of ownership. If you keep upgrading to new cars within the rapid depreciation period then you keep paying that hit over and over but if you sell a 5 year old car and buy a different 5 year old car for example it can be pretty much a wash.
Just from talking to people I think it's not an insignificant psychological hangup for people considering buying EVs. Whenever I discuss this with folks, it almost always comes up, if not just writing it off because charging will be a struggle, they may have considered possible solutions to this, but it always comes back to 'will this be sustainable for me long-term'. Nobody *wants* to replace a car that they like and enjoy just because they can no longer fuel it conveniently. You're never going to have that problem with an ICE or hybrid in the near future. Personally I absolutely *loathe* the process of buying and selling vehicles. It is painful on both ends, used or new, and when I buy a car I expect it to last me 10 years or more. There's a bit of a mental block to get over for people who have traditionally owned ICEs, and this is just one factor of many that goes into it. Fundamentally I think it is down to a lack of feeling of control over their freedom, if they can't control the charging. It's well and good to say 'well if your employer's parking lot decides the EVSE isn't profitable and rip it out, you can just buy a new car or choose to leave it parked for a few hours at a chargepoint once in a while! NBD!', but I don't think that really does anything to convince people to buy it anyway.
Young people seem more "sporty" about looking at alternatives. One young lady at work drives a plug-in Prius. I asked her about her experience with the car, and she was enthusiastic about it - she was able to drive one leg of the commute on electric, and use petrol on the way home (quite a commute), as there are no charging facilities near the office. She felt that a longer range plug-in hybrid would be a good fit for her. She didn't think a 100% EV was for her, but she was obviously 100% clued in as to what the alternatives are, and was willing to spend her money on it.
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Also, anyone can add their house or business to PlugShare or some other EV charging app and sell power for those who are desperate.
In the US I anticipate that would confront considerable regulatory, zoning, and neighbor issues. It is often the case that law and politics are the greatest hurtles to overcome rather than engineering and economics.
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Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
I think a lot of people are locked into the idea of needing to go to a servo to refuel and fail to realise the benefit of being able to recharge at home or pretty much anywhere for that matter. Instead they get caught up in a false notion that they'll have to stress about keeping the EV charged up.
Charging at home only works if you have an outlet you can use. And you'll need to find outlets along the road as well. Having to depend on public charging gets expensive quickly. The days of free charging are definitely over. Prices in the NL range from 50 eurocent to 80 eurocent per kWh (also at street level charging points) which translates to spending well over 10 eurocents per km. An ICE hybrid is cheaper to fuel even with the insanely high prices of gasoline/petrol in the NL. Companies who run the public charging stations in the NL are so secretive about their charging tarifs that the government agency which deals with consumer rights has summoned those companies to have clear pricing information on their website and on their charging points otherwise they'll face sanctions.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
Yes. Several of the Level 2 chargers have programmable NFC type access.
EDIT:, oh realised you meant normal power point. I'm sure there is somewhere.
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Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB (https://www.chargersdirect.com.au/product/wallbox-copper-Business)
Delta AC Mini Plus (https://evse.com.au/product/delta-ac-mini-plus-charger-charging-station/)
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station (https://evse.com.au/product/keba-fast-ev-charging-station-22kw-rfid-security-enabled/)
...many more
Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger
Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20097191), not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019 :palm:
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
Loads of solutions available on the market for exactly the situation you describe:
Wallbox Copper SB (https://www.chargersdirect.com.au/product/wallbox-copper-Business)
Delta AC Mini Plus (https://evse.com.au/product/delta-ac-mini-plus-charger-charging-station/)
KEBA Fast EV Charging Station (https://evse.com.au/product/keba-fast-ev-charging-station-22kw-rfid-security-enabled/)
...many more
Edit: Bigger worry should probably be making sure ICE cars don't steal the spot with the charger
Also noticed some ****** trying to patent NFC authentication (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO20097191), not just a dumb thing to patent but they filed it in 2019 :palm:
The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent. It's already public knowledge. This is the rule.
All the boxes you mentioned are high powered. I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet. Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet. We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
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The fact that I publicly mentioned the idea means if it wasn't already patented, you could no longer get a patent. It's already public knowledge. This is the rule.
The idea has been public since 2012 at least (https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Nov/electrification/1115_onstar-apps_gm.html). Edit: The Written Opinion of the International Searching Authority gave them NO to all claims for inventive step.
All the boxes you mentioned are high powered. I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet. Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet. We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
The power level you describe is on the level of "Level 1" cable brick solutions so nothing nicely integrated into a charging outlet with NFC for that performance-price point that I know of. If you're not opposed to getting a bit more hands on, you could take the OpenEVSE (https://store.openevse.com/collections/all/advanced-series) ($US399) and mod NFC support ($US40 Adafruit module (https://www.adafruit.com/product/364)) onto it without too much difficulty I think.
Pretty much all the EVSEs on the market are way overpriced for the actual hardware inside. The OpenEVSE is probably the best "functional" solution in terms of value for money. I don't think there's anything cheaper unless you go to Alibaba specials.
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All the boxes you mentioned are high powered. I only need 120v, 15 amps service per outlet. Something in the 400$-600$ range power NFC outlet. We do not need speed, all we need is slow and compatible with existing outdoor building wiring which can be handled with any contract electrician at a reasonable cost.
Another possible option - standard outdoor outlets inside small lockable enclosures, or outdoor weatherproof sockets that can be locked with a padlock if necessary]
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax. Also do some math on how much you can actually charge. From a single 16A 230V circuit you can charge about 120km of range in 8 hours.
No one is driving more than 50km to and from work. I'm offering a means of replenishing what they lost + if they also do a little extra for in city business trips. This is like an added courtesy as I'll soon be entering the EV market myself and I want to promote it. If anyone needs to do a longer business road-trip, they will know to keep their car charged and will definitely make up for it over time. I can always invest in 1 single high capacity outlet in 1 dedicated spot just for measure.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
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Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.
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Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...
And here in Montreal, the current plug-in recharge stations charge at an electrical rate of 2x the equivilant of gas per km. If my business is leasing cars for all the heads and partners, we believe this to be a nice option for when we take a 200km (total round trip) road trip (3/4) of the day to nearby city, or province, that they can replenish at the office since we would be paying for the gas anyways if it were an ICE. Yes, we get to write off gas on the company gas card anyways, but we will not pay that stupid ridiculous 2x electrical charge point cost here in Montreal/Quebec when our home electricity is one of the cheapest in Canada. It's almost as if those charge stations are subsidizing our residential and commercial power bills. Otherwise, our business will just supply the corporate gas cards and we will have higher expenses in paying for fuel, but not this 2x cost per km charge station price where I can drop the whole EV idea for everyone all together.
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Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...
Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/ (https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/)
But disable the manual override switch.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.
That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy. Sure the power levels are different, but technically the same thing.
And if it's a business car, no problem.
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[...]
It's like saying people aren't allowed to charge up their personal mobile phone at work, or use on site "end of trip" facilities like a hair dryer, hot shower etc that use energy.
[...]
Some countries' revenue services have this kind of thing down to a fine art, where - for example - you pay more property tax if you have a nice view out of the windows... or if you are using a company cell phone for personal calls... and so on. Millimeter democracy is so tedious.
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Do you really need access control? Is some randomer going to come alobg and plug in?
Yeah, I'd say odds are very low. And wouldn't it be an allocated parking space anyway?
Since it is outdoors, there is the weekends and nights...
Fair enough.
Surely are a plethora of app controlled power points these days? Just replace the standard power point with an app controlled one?
Something like this?
https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/ (https://www.techome.com.au/shop/th892-e-remote-control-electrician-installed-power-point/)
But disable the manual override switch.
Ok, thanks, I get your point, but we are talking outdoors where we need to meet regulatory safety concerns for the plugs themselves. As for metering, accounting is used to knowing who used what since we currently get the $$ spent with corporate gas card in the monthly statements. I do have over a year before we will be implementing this, but I'm sure I will find a solution which will make it worth my time in the long run and it wont be spending 3K$ for each parking spot, but maybe just 1 high speed/current plus few more simple level outdoor 1 AC ports for the rest which will have software control.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.
That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.
That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?
It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.
"it's just a socket for a lawnmower/jetwash/whatever"
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I have an odd question...
If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees? We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.
First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.
Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.
It is fairly simple. Our company will be leasing from 1 company at least 10 cars who specializes in corporate lease packages. We get favored service, favored price & the leaser has their own garage which handles everything from tire changes to body work and they supply a free car for the days one of our vehicles are in service. We have group corporate insurance through the company for the car drivers. We have a company gas card which works at all gas stations here in Canada & and major ones in the US, but that card only works for gas and emergency service/towing. For my partners, we end up with saving compared to private leasing the cars on our own as well as every service I mentioned above becomes a company tax write off. We offer to extend such services to our trusted employees whom we know we want to keep indefinitely with a take in their paycheck. The monthly cut is less than what they could end up doing if they were to buy or lease the car themselves as they would need to pay for all listed services above including insurance. On my side, it is a little additional work for my accountant at the end of each month, but I get even more of a tax write-off, my employee usually chooses a better car than they would be willing to pay for otherwise, and if they leave, they loose the car which since we only leased, it goes back to the leasing company.
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It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.
No, it's nuts.
You can go down to the last minute detail, it would never end.
Used that work shower after the gym and didn't tell them? FRAUD!
Used that work phone to make a personal call? FRAUD!
Used that company computer to do anything personal, FRAUD!
Tax codes can be quite sensible and flexible actually, unless you ask (here it's called a private ruling), then they will likely to say "well, yeah, kinda" and then bog you down forever in paperwork for the most mundane thing.
Take the example above. You use the company shower for personal reasons a few times a week, that costs water and energy, and if you were silly enough to ask they might actually rule it to be a "fringe benefit" which then weighs the company (and possibly you) down in red tape forever for that one silly thing.
Yet if you ever got audited they would never ask "did anyone use the electricity for any personal use?", it's not even on their radar, and they wouldn't want to bog themselves down with investigating such a thing anyway, it's waste of their time. Yet if you were dumb enough to ask for a tax ruling on it, or decided for yourself "it's fraud if I don't", then well, knock yourself out with the compliance of that, it's all on you. Such a thing would be nothing but noise in a company balance sheet.
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.
Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.
As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.
Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.
As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.
From the perspective of the Inland Revenue Services, if you have 10 million people receiving an untaxed benefit of $100, it adds up to real money! :D
In most countries it seems they begin to "care" at the level of about $50 a year.
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An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330.
That works out to less than a dollar a day, averaged out. The biscuits, milk and coffee in the office kitchen costs me nearly as much PP as that.
I'm gonna report them.
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Not the same as general degradation, and agree that warranty is the way to go, but interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws9Y1be8N-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws9Y1be8N-U)
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.
I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.
:scared:
Make one personal phone call a day on your work mobile and it'll likely cost more :palm:
And BTW, tax revenue doesn't magically just "add up" like that.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way. It does indeed sometimes go wrong, but rarely and usually caught. You're also looking at sped-up footage and assuming they're completely, totally, and utterly unskilled and just ramming them in.. The trigger is not on/off.
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.
I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.
I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.
At Altium we got free food and drinks (breakfast lunch and dinner from the cafeteria), gym membership, personal concierge service, mobile phone, car washing, and other stuff.
Get ONE muffin from the cafeteria and that would cost more than charging your EV for the whole day.
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Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way
What are your references ?
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Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way
What are your references ?
Life experience outside an office.. In the real world people just don't take the time to anally position every fastener unless they know it's particularly vulnerable to damage. And again, you're making some bold assumptions from sped-up footage. Nothing out of the ordinary in every garage was happening in those shots. Not saying it's perfect, just that it's reality.
Oh, and any reputable seller would warranty the work done that way.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.
Sorry if i haven't been clear enough, i was talking about real life experience into a automotive service center on a long period as a mechanical technician in my young years.
Please, let the competent people doing their job.
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mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.
Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.
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mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.
Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.
That's absolutely not true for BMW or Toyota or Mercedes. Warranty work pays a much as you get them to. Most techs don't bother learning how to get their money so look for customer pay jobs where you can charge more. The ideal is running time for a warranty job while working on a CP job. Warranty typically will pay more time than it takes to actually diagnose something even when you do what you say you did.
I once got flagged by corporate because I was making a bunch of money, legitimately, diagnosing and repairing a single emissions failure on many cars.
The real problem is bad techs doing poor work because they don't have the skill to work at the pace they try to. If you find a tech did a poor job don't go there again and let the service manager know. Nobody wants to work with someone doing a bad job that may come back later. It also hurts the reputation of the place which results in worse pay and hours.
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As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.
I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.
You are barking up the wrong tree. In the NL the government has a very specific list with what can be given to employees and what not and up to which monetary limit. EV charging is not on that list so it cannot be given away for free.
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https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U
This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.
Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..
I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.
I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.
Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly. It's just got to last "long enough".
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Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
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Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
Assuming you can even get them. All the good tradies I know personally from back in school and outside business are booked out months in advance, only chance of getting timely help from them is on the personal connection. :scared:
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Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly. It's just got to last "long enough".
I use to always make my best in order to and fix everything wrong on the car without any more time or money allowed by the commercial staff... and finally made a burnout (fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort linked to exhaustion)
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Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly. It's just got to last "long enough".
I use to always make my best in order to and fix everything wrong on the car without any more time or money allowed by the commercial staff... and finally made a burnout (fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort linked to exhaustion)
Yep, we can't carry the weight of the world on our shoulders, we are only human. So, we have to do "good enough" work commercially just like everyone else, and leave the "best work" for hobbies!
The lucky few can combine the two...
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fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort
You should get that checked out. They have creams for that you know :-DD
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fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort
You should get that checked out. They have creams for that you know :-DD
For the sniggering schoolboys out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagal_tone
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for the humorless out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke
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You are barking up the wrong tree. In the NL the government has a very specific list with what can be given to employees and what not and up to which monetary limit. EV charging is not on that list so it cannot be given away for free.
So change that list, it's hardly carved in stone.
Have you heard of anyone being prosecuted for it? Have you ever charged your personal smartphone or tablet at work? Did the tax man arrest you for it and haul you off to jail? Most of us to not live in the NL, so what the government of the NL permits is irrelevant to us.
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Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.
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Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.
Sometimes it takes a trained/practiced person, e.g. reupholstering seats or doing bodywork and paint. Other than those kinds of things, I'm firmly in the "Take it apart" category! :D
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I'd rather take an auto trans to a shop to rebuild than do it myself. Too messy. Diffs kind of the same also because I don't want my laundry to smell like diff fluid for months(if it ever comes out). My phones... If I can't get factory original parts then I'll send it off so that I retain ip68 performance. Other than that I'll usually fix my own stuff just for the sake of having it done quickly.
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On the rare occasions that I've needed to replace a transmission I went to a salvage yard and pulled one for $75 or whatever they were charging at the time. Even if you have one rebuilt by a transmission shop you can still save quite a bit by doing the R&R yourself. In practice though probably at least 99% of cars go from the showroom to the salvage yard with the original running gear intact.
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Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).
If you want something fixed right away and fixed right, fix it yourself. That's what I've always lived by anyway. In most cases it's less hassle to fix something myself at home than it is to make the arrangements to have it fixed by somebody else, even if it's covered by warranty.
and often the said fix is accompanied by new damage by some ham fisted gorilla with no manual dexterity.
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My IONIQ PHEV finally arrived today.
635 page manual, and they're never written in user friendly format that makes things easy to find.
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
It took about ten minutes of fannying about to get it to charge at a roadside charging point, first problem was which cable to use, second problem was how to open the charging port flap: the petrol flap, which is separate, has a button on the dash, whereas the charging port is a toggle push open/push shut, and the first time I tried "the obvious" I didn't push hard enough.
Anyway, it's charged, 30 miles for £15, that's the encouragement Londoners get for going electric, so I'll be sticking to petrol >:D
Cars are becoming incredibly over-complicated these days. There's no fewer than twelve buttons on the steering wheel, not including the horn.
I managed to get a handful of DAB/FM stations programmed up reasonably easily, and paired up my phone for the AmpHour. Beyond that, the remaining 630 pages of the manual were a little daunting, so I went back indoors and took advantage of a short lie down to cope.
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The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
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[...]
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire
[...]
The first time I encountered one of those was in a rental car at an airport, early in the AM, after a night with zero sleep and general jet lag and travel fatigue. I wasted something like 15 minutes trying to figure out why the car didn't have a handbrake lever or pedal... and then finally working out what they had done! Once you know what they do, they are of course OK. Not sure how good they are for handbrake turns, but.... :D
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The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
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I am so glad I am not alone!
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The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
I know the basics of what the controls do, from reading the manual. However, the manual is not really clear about some interactions. My car just handles hill starts, without any setting of controls being required. When you lift your foot off the brake on a slope the brakes don't disengage until you apply a little throttle, or wait for a 2 second timeout. Its a great convenience feature on slopes steep enough that the gearboxes creep function wouldn't hold it.
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My big complaint about car manuals is that they describe every feature on every variant of the model, so sme of teh time you need to figure out which features actually apply to your particular car. In some cases you get really silly things like "cruise control type A", and "type B" with no way to tell which your car has.
It would be so easy to include a card with a list of which sections of the manual do or do not apply to a particular vehicle.
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My big complaint about car manuals is that they describe every feature on every variant of the model, so sme of teh time you need to figure out which features actually apply to your particular car. In some cases you get really silly things like "cruise control type A", and "type B" with no way to tell which your car has.
It would be so easy to include a card with a list of which sections of the manual do or do not apply to a particular vehicle.
They usually describe every feature in every variant of the model supplied throughout in the entire world. Its interesting sometimes to find features they don't offer in your country. Often features they don't offer in any country that speaks the language of the manual.
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[...]
The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire
[...]
The first time I encountered one of those was in a rental car at an airport, early in the AM, after a night with zero sleep and general jet lag and travel fatigue. I wasted something like 15 minutes trying to figure out why the car didn't have a handbrake lever or pedal... and then finally working out what they had done! Once you know what they do, they are of course OK. Not sure how good they are for handbrake turns, but.... :D
I picked up a rent a car in London, once. A Volkswagon POS. I got it started easily enough but I couldn't disengage the park brake because I didn't know you have to have your foot on the brake while doing so. Of course, the bloody car wouldn't tell me that.
I managed to get the car moving enough to block the driveway and then a delivery truck showed up. The driver started to give some stick. I went over and explained my situation and asked if he knew how to turn off a park brake on a new car. The look on his face turned to utter defeat and he said "No idea, mate" and he waited calmly while I sorted my shit.
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The parking brake was my first battle. It is a small button/lever fly by wire, with no immediately obvious suggestion on whether to pull the switch up or push it down, but thankfully decades of random button pushing experience came to the rescue. It was a small, but meaningful, win for me.
Modern cars are so complex, I've had discussions on an owners forum just trying to figure out if a thing my car does is a bug or a feature. It turned out to be a feature, and was actually documented, but in a rather odd section of the manual. I'm still not sure about all the ways the parking brake interacts with other features of the car, but the car is an automatic, so it just goes into park when I stop anyway.
I think those things do clever stuff like engage automatically when the car stops, making hill starts easier, for example.
I know the basics of what the controls do, from reading the manual. However, the manual is not really clear about some interactions. My car just handles hill starts, without any setting of controls being required. When you lift your foot off the brake on a slope the brakes don't disengage until you apply a little throttle, or wait for a 2 second timeout. Its a great convenience feature on slopes steep enough that the gearboxes creep function wouldn't hold it.
It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess. Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
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It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess. Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.
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It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess. Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.
Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car. Comes naturally with big feet! :D
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I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.
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I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.
You have to get the car onto the clutch somehow..
Also, bad for your clutch, and the only thing stopping you from rolling back is 2mm of pedal travel.
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It's what clutches are made for so if you aren't trying to hit 100% throttle to hold the car it won't be an issue. Unless your drive is all stop and go traffic, uphill, both ways. :P I've never known anyone to have an issue though. Usually racing is what kills a clutch prematurely(even[especially?] if you're not trying to race).
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I don't see the point, just hold the car with the clutch. No risk of rolling back into someone then.
You have to get from stopped (with the brakes) to engaging the clutch, without rolling backwards.
In Europe, everyone is taught to use the handbrake in that situation (even if there is no hill, you are supposed to use the handbrake at a stop - safety habit). I like heel-and-toe better but that also takes training and not all drivers and cars are suitable for it.
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
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It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess. Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.
Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car. Comes naturally with big feet! :D
Somebody's boasting! :-DD
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It is a more valuable with a manual transmission than an automatic, I guess. Rolling backwards on a hill is not normally an issue with an automatic....
It is on a steep hill. Above a certain gradient an automatic rolls back when you lift your foot off the brake and accelerator. Not as fast as a manual rolls back, but it still rolls. The only times I have ever used the handbrake in an automatic have been starting on very steep hills and for the annual government mandated inspection.
Speaking of hills, I normally heel-and-toe the brake/gas rather than use the hand brake in a manual car. Comes naturally with big feet! :D
Somebody's boasting! :-DD
LOL my feet are so big I can easily use two pedals at a time even if not intentional! :D
I have been doing the heel and toe (actually the two sides of the foot, not really heel and toe) for so long that it's become second nature - good thing I don't have to take another test any time soon!
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
I thought the market was moving from wet to dry, for higher efficiency and lower cost.
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
Every DCT I know of has hill hold assist so it doesn't matter, I'm talking about cars without(I don't have new cars). I've worked on DCT for many years and typically the failures we saw were from... racing around. Only accumulator pumps usually failed and clutches typically failed from not being properly adapted, aside from normal wear/tear. I don't know if I've ever seen one that had overheated but I only worked for BMW so maybe other manufacturers were worse.
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Clutches are made for occasional low speed control and changing gear, not holding vehicles stationary on hills. Starting from parked requires use of the brake, so why not just use the same secure procedure all the time?
The combination of a dual clutch gearbox (which simulate a torque converter's creep mode by slipping the clutches), a caravan and sloped driveway is well known as a recipe for warranty claims. The clutches don't just wear fast. The whole gearbox overheats, with unpleasant results.
At least the newer iterations of those are wet clutches, which are a bit more suited to it. They're really nice to drive, too.
I thought the market was moving from wet to dry, for higher efficiency and lower cost.
Other way round afaik - VW started with dry and quickly decided wet was better, Nissan's new DCT (which I've driven) is wet.
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Every DCT I know of has hill hold assist so it doesn't matter
Hill hold assist has nothing to do with saving the clutch from creeping on an incline.
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What? If it has hill hold assist it gives you plenty of time to move from brake to throttle and you don't even need to touch the clutch until you're ready to move and you won't roll. I must be missing something you're implying.
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What? If it has hill hold assist it gives you plenty of time to move from brake to throttle and you don't even need to touch the clutch until you're ready to move and you won't roll. I must be missing something you're implying.
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A: We're talking about a DCT, so there's no clutch pedal for you, and B: Creeping on a hill means slipping the clutch. Slipping a clutch with a heavy load wears and heats the clutch excessively.
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Yes, DCT is no clutch so you're on the brake then you move to accelerator, no clutch involved from you or the computer until ready to move. Modern manuals with hill hold holds brakes so again no clutch necessary, you hold the brakes until you're ready to move and do so. Creeping isn't something I mentioned so I don't know what to tell you about that other than if you are just creeping and not revving the piss out of the engine it has the same effect as holding the car with the clutch, virtually none.
If you have a large manual transmission vehicle towing a trailer on a hill without hill hold assist... I would still hold the car with the clutch unless I was sure I wouldn't roll back at all without it. From what I've seen of others driving manual transmission vehicles with no hill hold assist I'd strongly recommend they learn to use the clutch similarly because they end up moving to the accelerator and slipping the clutch for 5 seconds at 5k rpm.
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Yes, DCT is no clutch so you're on the brake then you move to accelerator, no clutch involved from you or the computer until ready to move. Modern manuals with hill hold holds brakes so again no clutch necessary, you hold the brakes until you're ready to move and do so. Creeping isn't something I mentioned so I don't know what to tell you about that other than if you are just creeping and not revving the piss out of the engine it has the same effect as holding the car with the clutch, virtually none.
If you have a large manual transmission vehicle towing a trailer on a hill without hill hold assist... I would still hold the car with the clutch unless I was sure I wouldn't roll back at all without it. From what I've seen of others driving manual transmission vehicles with no hill hold assist I'd strongly recommend they learn to use the clutch similarly because they end up moving to the accelerator and slipping the clutch for 5 seconds at 5k rpm.
I haven't done the math, but instinctively, the heat dissipated in the clutch is probably is a function of the incline you are sitting on and engine RPM.
Obviously no problem to do it for a few seconds on a modest incline. But hanging the car from the clutch for a minute while waiting for a light to change on a steep hill with a heavy load is probably a bad plan!
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Electric cars have these clutches?
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Electric cars have these clutches?
An electric motor has high torque right down to zero RPM, unlike an ICE. So it doesn't need a clutch for getting the car started from a standstill.
An electric car does have an efficiency problem if the motor is used to hold the car still instead of the brakes. It is more efficient to use brakes on a hill than it is to run current through the motor to hold the vehicle still.
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Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day.
It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway. As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.
I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch. I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running. I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.
So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on. Regardless of where I set the switch. Without feedback. Ugh.
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Don't be afraid.
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Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day.
It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway. As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.
I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch. I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running. I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.
So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on. Regardless of where I set the switch. Without feedback. Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.
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Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day.
It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway. As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.
I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch. I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running. I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.
So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on. Regardless of where I set the switch. Without feedback. Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.
Frankly, I'm finding a lot of it quite unfathomable.
The Ioniq I've had for about ten days, I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I've switched it off or not. Sometimes I find it still bongs at me, but doesn't explain why. I live in trepidation I'll come back and find the battery's drained.
On the plus side, one of the compliants I used to have with my old Prius plug in hybrid was that hardly any of the free charging points provided at some supermarket car parks ever worked, so I just gave up using them. Thankfully, five years later, we seem to be in rather better shape regarding this, although they do tend to be slow rate chargers.
I've tried using CarPlay and I'm not really sure why I would use that and not the built in sat nav.
Today's in-car tech needs an 8 year old's mindset to make it work. It's just a shame 8 years olds can't drive cars.
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The Ioniq I've had for about ten days, I'm still trying to figure out whether or not I've switched it off or not. Sometimes I find it still bongs at me, but doesn't explain why. I live in trepidation I'll come back and find the battery's drained.
The main on-off indication is the green car with arrows logo.
Not sure if it's same as the Ioniq but my Kona has different "On" modes depending on whether or not you have your foot on the the brake while pressing the "power" button - this is not well explained in the manual, and it doesn't help that the different LED indication colours are shown in black & white !
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Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day.
It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway. As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.
I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch. I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running. I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.
So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on. Regardless of where I set the switch. Without feedback. Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.
I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves. For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm... or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever - so you decide not to use it... too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant! :D
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Our Hyundai Tuscon caught me out the other day.
It was a light raining and I was backing out of the driveway. As the rain was light the front wipers were on intermittently, and when I went to back out the rear wipers were also running.
I then spent 2 minutes faffing around with the rear wiper switch. I was sure I hadn't turned on the rear wipers, I confirmed the switch was in the off position, I cycled the switch to on / off and the wipers were still running. I gave up, backed out of the driveway and was thinking of taking it to the dealer to get it fixed, put in in drive and the rear wiper stopped.
So, the car decided to run the rear wiper when in reverse as the front wipers were on. Regardless of where I set the switch. Without feedback. Ugh.
That's common in modern cars. Many makes have an entry in the setup menu where you can configure this behaviour, and store it for future use.
I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves. For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm... or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever - so you decide not to use it... too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant! :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.
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I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves. For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm... or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever - so you decide not to use it... too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant! :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.
It's the thin edge of the wedge. First they start by activating the wipers, eventually the car will wind up doing all the driving by itself.
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I'm not a big fan of cars deciding to turn stuff on and off by themselves. For example, let's say the rear wiper is frozen to the window due to a winter storm... or it is broken for some other reason - vandalism, whatever - so you decide not to use it... too bad you were overruled by a device with less IQ than an ant! :D
Most people find it a convenience. If you don't like it, disable it. Its no big deal.
It's the thin edge of the wedge. First they start by activating the wipers, eventually the car will wind up doing all the driving by itself.
Experience on the road tells me this is only a good thing.
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Today, my (car) insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone... it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance... I politely declined.
How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory? :(
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Today, my (car) insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone... it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance... I politely declined.
How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory? :(
These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
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Today, my (car) insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone... it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance... I politely declined.
How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory? :(
These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
It will be ushered in with the [initial] cost saving on the insurance premium by allowing the app into your life. The punters will lap it up, when the time comes.
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Today, my (car) insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone... it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance... I politely declined.
How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory? :(
These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
If you go to a site like comparethemarket.com, and look for insurance for a young driver, most of the cheaper options require an app or a telemetry box attached to the car. However, when we looked around last year for our son we found a much cheaper option from a major insurer without requiring any telemetry. The spread of quotes you get is quite bizarre. You can find one company quoting 500 pounds, while another quotes 5000 pounds for basically the same insurance conditions. Its a strange market.
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Today, my (car) insurance agent tried to entice me into installing the insurance company's new app on my phone... it tracks how you drive, basically, by using the accelerometers and GPS of the phone.
If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance... I politely declined.
How long until that kind of stuff becomes mandatory? :(
These days it's the only way a lot of younger drivers can afford insurance. The few actively spoil it for the rest of us, unfortunately.
If you go to a site like comparethemarket.com, and look for insurance for a young driver, most of the cheaper options require an app or a telemetry box attached to the car. However, when we looked around last year for our son we found a much cheaper option from a major insurer without requiring any telemetry. The spread of quotes you get is quite bizarre. You can find one company quoting 500 pounds, while another quotes 5000 pounds for basically the same insurance conditions. Its a strange market.
One insurance agent explained that they give ridiculous quotes if they don't really want the business. Different companies apparently specialise in different types of risk.
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If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance
I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.
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If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance
I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.
I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare. But 80mph? ... hmmmm
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
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If you don't do any sudden stops and don't exceed 80mph, you get a discount on your insurance
I rarely do anyway and I like saving money on my insurance.
I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare. But 80mph? ... hmmmm
Aren't most insurance claims the result of failing to make a sudden stop?
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[attachimg=1]
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
No allowance - and being a passenger in the car is also a problem (the phone doesn't know... it doesn't even know what car you're in).
Apparently you can delete journeys "with an explanation".
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I have a old picture of a very early model uniden gps receiver which I used as a speedo for a very old car I had. Once I was parked at the beach and the screen said 420km/h.
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Aren't most insurance claims the result of failing to make a sudden stop?
Hehe yes. However someone who makes sudden stops on a regular basis is a dangerous driver.
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I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare. But 80mph? ... hmmmm
Neither can I, but my Bolt EV sends me a monthly report showing the number of times I've exceeded 80 mph (usually zero) and number of "sudden deceleration events", which is never zero. The question is "hard stop according to whom?" I've opted out of my insurance company's app offer as well.
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I can't recall the last time I had to make a sudden stop - those are very rare. But 80mph? ... hmmmm
Neither can I, but my Bolt EV sends me a monthly report showing the number of times I've exceeded 80 mph (usually zero) and number of "sudden deceleration events", which is never zero. The question is "hard stop according to whom?" I've opted out of my insurance company's app offer as well.
I found an article that says "a hard brake is defined as any condition where the vehicle decelerates faster than 7 MPH per second".
Not sure what to make of that... I'm going to have to do some tests in my car next time I'm out and about, to see what that feels like in the real world.
https://blog.joemanna.com/progressive-snapshot-review/ (https://blog.joemanna.com/progressive-snapshot-review/)
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.
Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
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I found an article that says "a hard brake is defined as any condition where the vehicle decelerates faster than 7 MPH per second".
Not sure what to make of that... I'm going to have to do some tests in my car next time I'm out and about, to see what that feels like in the real world.
Stunt drivers will pull 1G. 1G = 20 mph/s
A reasonably skilled driver could get deceleration rates in excess of 13 mph/s without loss of control.
Seems like 7 mph/s is gentle braking.
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If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass.
:-DD that's a good one
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.
Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.
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GM launches Onstar Insurance Services (https://www.reinsurancene.ws/general-motors-launches-onstar-insurance-services/)
Damn...
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.
Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.
And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.
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If it's a 75mph zone, he would have to be having a pretty bad day. I would dispute it and he would have a hard time proving I was going 5 over.
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.
Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.
And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.
Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.
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Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.
The absolute limit being 70.
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that translates to 130kph which isn't legal anywhere in my province. It could make passing difficult though. Is there any allowance for that?
If you need to break the speed limit to pass you don't need to pass. It's a speed limit, not a suggestion.
Wonder what that daft app makes of a train journey.
I was taught to pass quickly - definitely don't dawdle at 4 mph faster than the car you are passing, for example - even if that means exceeding the limit for a few seconds.
And I'm pretty sure if you pass a police car at 80mph while they're doing 65, they'll take issue with your interpretation.
Imagine you are on an A road and need to pass someone doing 55 (in a 60) for whatever reason, which you judge to be inappropriate. If you peak at e.g. 70 for a couple of seconds during the overtaking process... you are arguably a safer driver than a hypothetical other that spends 5 times as long in the opposite lane passing at 58mph!
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Nahhh. Many years ago even overtook a car right in front of a mobile speed trap. Just stay under the absolute limit. Most cars show the speed 8% higher and then there is a measurement error margin on top of it.
The absolute limit being 70.
I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
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:-//
Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..
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:-//
Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..
The UK road traffic statistics do not support that assertion:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1118328;image)
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I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
When did you last drive in the UK? I used to drive at 70MPH on motorways with lots of people passing me, but these days I set cruise to 70 and don't find that many going faster. I don't know why. Cars are more powerful these days, and drive effortlessly at higher speeds. On the other hand, maybe increased police monitoring, and being able to set cruise and sit back is making people more relaxed drivers.
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I have never driven on a UK motorway where the 70mph limit is treated as anything other than a rough guidance, by the majority of drivers...
When did you last drive in the UK? I used to drive at 70MPH on motorways with lots of people passing me, but these days I set cruise to 70 and don't find that many going faster. I don't know why. Cars are more powerful these days, and drive effortlessly at higher speeds. On the other maybe increased police monitoring, and being able to set cruise and sit back is making people more relaxed drivers.
Last year, M1 and M40. As soon as you are outside peak hours and away from the roadworks with speed cameras, you won't get lonely in the fast lane, was my experience! :D
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:-//
Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..
The UK road traffic statistics do not support that assertion:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1118328;image)
Fatalities is a very narrow selection of accidents. I haven't briefly found any graphs not about injuries, which is a shame, seeing as those will be massively declining due to improvements in vehicles.
My own experience on the road says drivers are worse and more impatient than ever. And, I'm afraid, plucking a graph off the internet does not give you the right to adjust the rules of the road to suit your own preferences.
Anyway, well off-topic, so just do me a favour and don't come down to Cornwall. We have plenty enough bad drivers, the situation is already significantly worse when tourist season comes in, please don't add to it.
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[...] And, I'm afraid, plucking a graph off the internet [...]
The graph is the official government statistics, I should have included the reference:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-accidents-and-safety-statistics (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-accidents-and-safety-statistics)
[...] you [do not have] the right to adjust the rules of the road to suit your own preferences. [...]
Goes without saying, really.
[...] Anyway, well off-topic, so just do me a favour and don't come down to Cornwall. We have plenty enough bad drivers, the situation is already significantly worse when tourist season comes in, please don't add to it.
But is it not true that "bad driving" encompasses much more than speeding - what I see every day is things like changing lanes without looking (let alone indicating), driving while using a mobile phone, that kind of thing.
I think the speed limit for drivers like that needs to be 3 mph, with a person walking in front with a red flag.
So I am no longer welcome in Cornwall... that's a shame, where else am I going to get a proper serving of tea and scones?!?
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The absolute limit being 70.
In a 70 zone I normally wouldn't need to reach 80 to pass, and if so then only momentarily.
On the highway I find that coppers usually follow people for a bit to see if they're consistently speeding or driving dangerously. They don't pull you over right away. They have better things to do then give people tickets for passing.
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:-//
Such is why the roads continue to become more and more dangerous..
I would say that inattentive and unskilled drivers are the most dangerous on the road. The ones who are completely oblivious to their surroundings. And they are just as dangerous going half the speed limit. In all my accidents I've never been hit by a speeder.
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Fatalities is a very narrow selection of accidents. I haven't briefly found any graphs not about injuries, which is a shame, seeing as those will be massively declining due to improvements in vehicles.
There are a couple of videos on YouTube where a 1980s Volvo 740 is crashed into a cheap modern car. In the 1980s the Volvo would crush most small cars in an accident. Modern small cars do pretty well against it. People are walking away from accidents with bumps and bruises that would have once have been somewhere between crushed legs and death. So, a drop in fatalities has a lot more to do with NCAP ratings than accident rates. On the other hand, car insurance rates aren't too bad compared to the 1980s. That might be a much better indicator of accident rates.
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them
The Mobilize EZ-1 prototype is a bite-sized, two-person EV with a swappable battery so you wouldn't have to wait for it to charge. (https://www.businessinsider.com/renault-mobilize-ez-1-prototype-shared-ev-recycled-charging-battery-2021-1)
(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/mobilize_ez-1_prototype_9hr00_14012021_6.jpg)
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Probably takes me about a minute to plug my old s in when needed. Would take ten seconds if the reflector/'gas cap' was on the right side. Have to be careful deploying the 'hose' so garage door doesn't come down on it.
Also have to be careful of garage floor ice from tire drippings. Such a pain to fill for overnight charge for 300 miles in morning.
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
Swap-able standardised batteries have several advantages. But I can't see auto makers embracing them
The Mobilize EZ-1 prototype is a bite-sized, two-person EV with a swappable battery so you wouldn't have to wait for it to charge. (https://www.businessinsider.com/renault-mobilize-ez-1-prototype-shared-ev-recycled-charging-battery-2021-1)
(https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/images/car-reviews/first-drives/legacy/mobilize_ez-1_prototype_9hr00_14012021_6.jpg)
Yes but that's tiny and designed as a rental/sharing car, like those scooter rental schemes. They're designed to be driven all day and any downtime is lost revenue.
Any full size 'family' car will have the batteries distributed all over it for weight/space/design reasons. It won't be a single big block of batteries, it will be difficult to standardize.
Heck, they haven't even decided on a standard voltage yet. Tesla has said they'll be raising the voltage in their next generation of cars.
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Yes. These things take time.
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Daimler just announced that they won't be 100% electric by 2030 and that this date is "too aggressive" for full electrification - the ICE will be with us for a while longer - the upside of that is, it will be in its most efficient form ever.
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It would seem David made Mehdi go green with envy? Funny guy buys proto-type.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFLopMOIjc8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFLopMOIjc8)
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
Battery Swap Stations Are Gaining Momentum In China (https://jalopnik.com/battery-swap-stations-are-gaining-momentum-in-china-1847015406)
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Battery swap as Nio does is OK for pro use, like taxis, but kind of missing the mark for normal users.
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
A California Startup Now Offers a Full EV Battery in Just 10 Minutes (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-10/california-startup-ample-offers-a-full-ev-battery-in-just-10-minutes)
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Battery swap is a non starter in the consumer market, it's already obsolete. Tesla supercharger can already give you 200 miles of range in 15 minutes and a significant amount in much less than that. Battery swapping may work for utilitarian fleet vehicles but it's going to bring more problems than it solves to regular car owners.
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Teslas aren't serious cars. They are toys, statements and status symbols.
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Teslas aren't serious cars. They are toys, statements and status symbols.
You could say the same about Apple products... is it fair to say Teslas aren't "serious" cars? Is an iPhone not a "serious" phone just because it is overpriced and wielded by many status conscious owners (or renters...)?
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I thought my point was clear, but allow me to rephrase. Teslas are not made for the general public. They are not commodity cars, and likely never will be.
When Ferrari (similar adoption rate) comes up with some new technology which adds 100hp, nobody cares!
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I thought my point was clear, but allow me to rephrase. Teslas are not made for the general public. They are not commodity cars, and likely never will be.
When Ferrari (similar adoption rate) comes up with some new technology which adds 100hp, nobody cares!
The Model 3 and the speculated "Model 2" are example counter points to "Teslas are not made for the general public"
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I thought my point was clear, but allow me to rephrase. Teslas are not made for the general public. They are not commodity cars, and likely never will be.
When Ferrari (similar adoption rate) comes up with some new technology which adds 100hp, nobody cares!
The Model 3 and the speculated "Model 2" are example counter points to "Teslas are not made for the general public"
The Model 3 is a AU$68,000 car minimum.
Not quite the luxury car category, but hardly an affordable car for Joe Average.
No EV is really, unless your country has government subsidies for EV's. ICE cars are half the price of EV's, or less.
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I thought my point was clear, but allow me to rephrase. Teslas are not made for the general public. They are not commodity cars, and likely never will be.
When Ferrari (similar adoption rate) comes up with some new technology which adds 100hp, nobody cares!
The Model 3 and the speculated "Model 2" are example counter points to "Teslas are not made for the general public"
The Model 3 is a AU$68,000 car minimum.
Not quite the luxury car category, but hardly an affordable car for Joe Average.
No EV is really, unless your country has government subsidies for EV's. ICE cars are half the price of EV's, or less.
The point was about what market Tesla vehicles are "made for" and comparison to a Ferrari. The cost of a Tesla in Australia is high. The MSRP for a 2021 Tesla Model 3 entry range is $39,490 in the USA (https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/tesla/model-3). A similar ICE car is the 2021 Audi A4 starts at $39,100 (https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/audi/a4/2021). An "affordable" EV such as the 2021 Ioniq Electric starts at $33,245 (https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/hyundai/ioniq), only $6k more than the Tesla starting price. The cheapest new Ferrari is the 2021 Ferrari Roma (Starts at $222,630) (https://www.supercars.net/blog/all-brands/ferrari/current-ferrari-models/)
The speculated/planned Tesla Model 2 is $A32 000, $US25 000. (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/all-new-tesla-model-2-set-for-australia-128491/) Another source (https://www.caradvice.com.au/914439/teslas-32000-model-to-arrive-as-soon-as-2022-report/) and another source (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/05/tesla-expected-to-unveil-model-2-electric-hatchback-in-late-2021/). No recent official announcements apart from the initial battery day reveal (https://www.caradvice.com.au/886154/tesla-battery-day-more-efficient-batteries-new-35k-model-coming/) however.
EVs are still more expensive than ICE cars but that doesn't mean OEM aren't targeting the "general public".
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EVs are still more expensive than ICE cars but that doesn't mean OEM aren't targeting the "general public".
The car makers have been tragetting the "general public" with EV's before Tesla, e.g. the Nissan LEAF in 2010
The problem is, and will currently remain, the price of batteries.
The price of an EV battery pack big enough to woo Joe Average to buy an EV instead of an ICE is the same or more than the cost of an entire small ICE car.
Don't expect those prices to magically drop. The gigafactory promised massive reductions, and that didn't really happen. And again they are making promises and/or assuming prices will drop drastically, don't count on it.
EV's will continue to be a premium priced product for many years.
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EVs are still more expensive than ICE cars but that doesn't mean OEM aren't targeting the "general public".
The car makers have been tragetting the "general public" with EV's before Tesla, e.g. the Nissan LEAF in 2010
The problem is, and will currently remain, the price of batteries.
The price of an EV battery pack big enough to woo Joe Average to buy an EV instead of an ICE is the same or more than the cost of an entire small ICE car.
Don't expect those prices to magically drop. The gigafactory promised massive reductions, and that didn't really happen. And again they are making promises and/or assuming prices will drop drastically, don't count on it.
EV's will continue to be a premium priced product for many years.
At what price do EV batteries become cost effective?
Many historical stats\forecasts are showing the price will halve from the current cost by the end of the decade, e.g. here (https://www.statista.com/statistics/883118/global-lithium-ion-battery-pack-costs/) and here (https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/EE/D0EE02681F#!divAbstract).
I guess we'll just have to come back in 9 years and see.
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The car makers have been tragetting the "general public" with EV's before Tesla, e.g. the Nissan LEAF in 2010
Yeah, that's been the plan from the start back in 2006. Focus on high performance sport cars then move down the market into affordably priced family cars.
https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me)
As you know, the initial product of Tesla Motors is a high performance electric sports car called the Tesla Roadster. However, some readers may not be aware of the fact that our long term plan is to build a wide range of models, including affordably priced family cars.
[...]
Build sports car
Use that money to build an affordable car
Use that money to build an even more affordable car
While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
There's nothing incongruent going on here.
The gigafactory promised massive reductions, and that didn't really happen. And again they are making promises and/or assuming prices will drop drastically, don't count on it.
EV's will continue to be a premium priced product for many years.
What "promised massive reductions" as you talking about?
As far as meeting plans and expectations: orginially back in 2014 Gigafactory 1 (Giga Nevada) planned for 35 GWh/yr in 2020 (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/gigafactory.pdf) and achieved that according to this industry/academic talk from Panasonic: https://electrek.co/2020/11/03/tesla-gigafactory-nevada-supposed-to-look-like/ (https://electrek.co/2020/11/03/tesla-gigafactory-nevada-supposed-to-look-like/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ0yFAGELnE&t=1466s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ0yFAGELnE&t=1466s)
Plans in 2016 were announced to increase Gigafactory 1 to 105 GWh/yr (https://insideevs.com/news/331328/elon-musk-says-gigafactory-output-could-soar-to-150-gwh-annually/) and given they currently have 35 GWh/yr with 30% site usage that seems quite feasible not even including technology advancements and increased economies of scale.
Also Model 2 price target is a "goal" from my reading and the context, not a "promise".
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What "promised massive reductions" as you talking about?
$100kWh was thrown around:
https://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/05/teslas-gigafactory-may-hit-100-per-kilowatt-hour-holy-grail-ev-batteries-report-predicts/
Musk himself said he'd be “disappointed if it took us 10 years to get to $100 a kilowatt-hour pack.”
Looks like it's going to take them double that time. They are currently at $US187/kWh:
https://thedriven.io/2021/03/11/tesla-leads-on-ev-battery-costs-despite-soaring-lithium-prices/
$100 is not even projected by 2030, that would be 16 years and still not there.
Commodity prices aren't going to magically drop, and inflation is with us to stay. They couldn't even meet the "disspointing" target when commodity prices were low.
(https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/battery-pack-manufacturing-costs-cairn-era.jpg)
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What "promised massive reductions" as you talking about?
$100kWh was thrown around:
https://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/05/teslas-gigafactory-may-hit-100-per-kilowatt-hour-holy-grail-ev-batteries-report-predicts/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2014/09/05/teslas-gigafactory-may-hit-100-per-kilowatt-hour-holy-grail-ev-batteries-report-predicts/)
Musk himself said he'd be “disappointed if it took us 10 years to get to $100 a kilowatt-hour pack.”
Looks like it's going to take them double that time. They are currently at $US187/kWh:
https://thedriven.io/2021/03/11/tesla-leads-on-ev-battery-costs-despite-soaring-lithium-prices/ (https://thedriven.io/2021/03/11/tesla-leads-on-ev-battery-costs-despite-soaring-lithium-prices/)
$100 is not even projected by 2030, that would be 16 years and still not there.
Commodity prices aren't going to magically drop, and inflation is with us to stay. They couldn't even meet the "disspointing" target when commodity prices were low.
(https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/battery-pack-manufacturing-costs-cairn-era.jpg)
Let's be clear, he said he'd be "disappointed" to not reach a 100 $/kWh goal in 10 years during a Q2 earnings call in mid-late 2014. That's hardly promising and selling to the world that they WILL get 100$/kWh before 2024 as if he's trying to con the general public.
We should also note (in case anyone forgets) that cell cost and pack costs are different.
These "$100 is not even projected by 2030" estimates AFAIK are only coming from a single analyst source: Cairn Energy Research Advisors which appears to consistently give high estimates for Tesla's costs and give generous estimates for GM. The original report is also by CNBC which is known for heavy anti Tesla bias. Though even in this case, the relative performance to the Auto "industry average" is strong. Seems more like a lightly disguised GM puff piece to me.
May 2020, CATL (Tesla's Chinese battery partner) was cited by Reuters to have achieved beyond the goal with the help of Jeff Dahn at Dalhousie University.
The cost of CATL’s cobalt-free lithium iron phosphate battery packs has fallen below $80 per kilowatt-hour, with the cost of the battery cells dropping below $60/kWh, the sources said. CATL’s low-cobalt NMC battery packs are close to $100/kWh.
[...]
Battery expert Shirley Meng, a professor at the University of California San Diego, said NMC cells could cost as little as $80/kWh once recycling and recovery of key materials such as cobalt and nickel is factored in. Iron phosphate batteries, which are safer than NMC, could find a second life in stationary grid storage systems, reducing the upfront cost of those batteries for electric vehicle buyers.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclusive-teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid-idUKKBN22Q1WC (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclusive-teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid-idUKKBN22Q1WC)
Latest 2020 annual survey from BloombergNEF "Battery Pack Prices Cited Below $100/kWh for the First Time in 2020, While Market Average Sits at $137/kWh"
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1231496;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1231498;image)
https://about.bnef.com/blog/battery-pack-prices-cited-below-100-kwh-for-the-first-time-in-2020-while-market-average-sits-at-137-kwh/ (https://about.bnef.com/blog/battery-pack-prices-cited-below-100-kwh-for-the-first-time-in-2020-while-market-average-sits-at-137-kwh/)
Lithium-ion battery pack prices, which were above $1,100 per kilowatt-hour in 2010, have fallen 89% in real terms to $137/kWh in 2020. By 2023, average prices will be close to $100/kWh, according to the latest forecast from research company BloombergNEF (BNEF).
IEA has lithium automotive battery pack prices at 156 $/kWh in 2019 which matches the BNEF 2019 finding (https://about.bnef.com/blog/battery-pack-prices-fall-as-market-ramps-up-with-market-average-at-156-kwh-in-2019/)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1231500;image)
IEA, Evolution of Li-ion battery price, 1995-2019, IEA, Paris https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/evolution-of-li-ion-battery-price-1995-2019 (https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/evolution-of-li-ion-battery-price-1995-2019)
Mack Institute study: "the industry-wide average cost of battery packs in 2019 was US $161 per kWh"
https://mackinstitute.wharton.upenn.edu/2020/electric-vehicle-battery-costs-decline/ (https://mackinstitute.wharton.upenn.edu/2020/electric-vehicle-battery-costs-decline/)
gmb42 also posted some sources
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1231506;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1231506;image)https://doi.org/10.1039/D0EE02681F (https://doi.org/10.1039/D0EE02681F)
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/batteries-storage/chart-behind-the-three-decade-collapse-of-lithium-ion-battery-costs (https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/batteries-storage/chart-behind-the-three-decade-collapse-of-lithium-ion-battery-costs)
These are also industry average price trends not Tesla's cost and they are well below the Cairn Energy Research Advisors reports.
Bloomberg Dec 2020 "Tesla, the world’s largest EV maker, pays an estimated average of $115 per kilowatt-hour for batteries, according to the BNEF survey, down from $128 last year."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/electric-cars-are-about-to-be-as-cheap-as-gas-powered-models (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/electric-cars-are-about-to-be-as-cheap-as-gas-powered-models)
Trefis "We estimate that Battery costs for Tesla vehicles have declined from around $230 per kWh in 2016 to $127 in 2019...We estimate that Tesla's battery costs are about 20% below the industry average, driven by the company's higher volumes and battery chemistry."
https://dashboards.trefis.com/data/companies/TSLA/no-login-required/pNkbHhrb/A-Detailed-Look-At-How-Tesla-s-Battery-Costs-Impact-Its-Gross-Margins (https://dashboards.trefis.com/data/companies/TSLA/no-login-required/pNkbHhrb/A-Detailed-Look-At-How-Tesla-s-Battery-Costs-Impact-Its-Gross-Margins)
Bottom line:
Looks like they should get 100 $/kWh before 2024 if not already in some of their factories. <100 $/kWh has apparently already been achieved in least one partner factory.
Please consider your sources and try to avoid biased single sources.
Aside: AFAIK Tesla only uses CATL's cobalt free batteries. Likely due to CATL's weak conflict materials policies and auditing.
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Call me in 2024 ::)
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Wait until the electric pickups start appearing - the CATL trucks. :)
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Wait until the electric pickups start appearing - the CATL trucks. :)
Rednecks go crazy --> EV demand goes up --> even the gigafactories can't supply enough --> prices more like to go up instead of down
Tesla now only sell PowerWall's to people who buy Tesla solar panels, and thier reason is cited as the factories can't keep up wiht demand.
Add in inevitable increase in EV and home storage demand, and the supply issues aren't going to get any better.
And again, throw in inflation and a rising commodities market that's likely just getting started and the future is not good for lower EV prices.
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Call me in 2024 ::)
Wanna bet? Every $ above 100 $/kWh in the 2024 annual survey I pay you, every $ below 100$/kWh you pay me :P can put a multiplier if on each $/kWh if its not enough.
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Wait until the electric pickups start appearing - the CATL trucks. :)
Rednecks go crazy --> EV demand goes up --> even the gigafactories can't supply enough --> prices more like to go up instead of down
Tesla now only sell PowerWall's to people who buy Tesla solar panels, and thier reason is cited as the factories can't keep up wiht demand.
Add in inevitable increase in EV and home storage demand, and the supply issues aren't going to get any better.
And again, throw in inflation and a rising commodities market that's likely just getting started and the future is not good for lower EV prices.
“Battery prices are increasing, not falling.” The two main arguments that battery prices will increase are based on sensitivity to underlying metal prices, and the desire of battery manufacturers to increase their margins. Let’s tackle metals first. Depending on the chemistry, lithium-ion batteries are sensitive to lithium, nickel, cobalt and aluminum prices. BloombergNEF’s Battery Price Sensitivity tool allows our clients to assess the sensitivity based on weekly changes to underlying commodity price across a range of battery chemistries. The sensitivity of battery pack prices to commodity prices is much lower than commonly understood. A 50% increase in lithium prices would for instance increase the battery pack price of a nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) 811 battery by less than 4%. Similarly, a doubling of cobalt prices would result in a 3% increase in the overall pack price. Yes, contracts may fluctuate depending on the underlying commodity price but not by as much as you might think.
The second argument has more recently come from a number of battery manufacturers themselves. Due to a lack of transparency around margins, in the Battery Price Survey we currently use price as a proxy for cost. This will not necessarily always remain the case as manufacturers adjust their margins and as we gain more visibility. If news reports in Korea are to be believed, Samsung SDI and LG Chem are in talks with a number of their automotive customers to increase battery price contracts by around 10% in upcoming supply agreements. Efforts from any single manufacturer to raise prices would appear to ignore the looming competition from competitors. These companies may be trying to defend a price premium that might not be defensible. They may either fail, or succeed and lose market share as a result. A more co-ordinated push across manufacturers to raise prices would by contrast look like cartel behaviour – and is very unlikely with the landscape as it currently stands.
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/
Come on Dave, put your money where your mouth is :P
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Call me in 2024 ::)
Wanna bet? Every $ above 100 $/kWh in the 2024 annual survey I pay you, every $ below 100$/kWh you pay me :P can put a multiplier if on each $/kWh if its not enough.
You are confusing me with someone who really cares that much.
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Call me in 2024 ::)
Wanna bet? Every $ above 100 $/kWh in the 2024 annual survey I pay you, every $ below 100$/kWh you pay me :P can put a multiplier if on each $/kWh if its not enough.
You are confusing me with someone who really cares that much.
Aw come on Dave. Don't be a wet spot. How could you lose? I'm sure where ever you get your opinions from on the internet is much more insightful and reliable than the industry insiders, analysts and academics. >:D Would you have any reason to think I might be an active participant in the space with in-depth knowledge? :-DD
Anyway, I'm just winding you up :P There's no way I'd get more out from you than I chip in via Patreon over 3 years. ;D
Please check your information before you go spreading it. Especially if it's going out on the YouTube channel. I don't want to get too preachy but you have a platform, an audience and responsibility.
I don't intend to take this any further.
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Aw come on Dave. Don't be a wet spot. How could you lose? I'm sure where ever you get your opinions from on the internet is much more insightful and reliable than the industry insiders, analysts and academics. >:D Would you have any reason to think I might be an active participant in the space with in-depth knowledge? :-DD
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png)
I don't intend to take this any further.
Yes, yes you do, your desperation is palpable :-DD
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Get a room, you two.
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IMHO future battery prices are rather unpredictable. AFAIK solid state batteries are about to be introduced which will cut costs and improve charging times (Toyota seems to be commited to using solid state batteries and not mess with Li-ion for their BEVs). There is not much sense in making predictions based on Li-ion batteries; likely Li-ion is going to be phased out soon.
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AFAIK solid state batteries are about to be introduced which will cut costs and improve charging times (Toyota seems to be commited to using solid state batteries and not mess with Li-ion for their BEVs).
I thought solid state batteries were expected to be more expensive, at least in the short term. They are expected to offer faster charging, longer life, and relaxed cooling requirements, which are highly desirable qualities. I haven't heard anything about low prices, although the relaxed cooling might help with overall system cost.
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I think solid state batteries are many years away - I don't think anyone has yet demonstrated a manufacturable, EV-suitable SS cell
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I think solid state batteries are many years away - I don't think anyone has yet demonstrated a manufacturable, EV-suitable SS cell
QuantumScape has been making bold claims and is one SS battery startup I'm keeping an eye on. Will see if they are actually able to deliver on claims. Still likely many years away.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFiQIMyF-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKFiQIMyF-A)
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I think solid state batteries are many years away - I don't think anyone has yet demonstrated a manufacturable, EV-suitable SS cell
There are limited numbers of systems which claim to be shipping with solid state batteries today. However, the ones I know of, like the Daimler eCitaro buses, have been problematic, and subject to recalls.
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If there is one thing that seems almost certain, it's that it's unlikely that any manufacturer is going to be able to make an EV car any time soon that can compete with the price point of an ICE.
e.g. There are "only five" automatic cars in Australia under AU$20,000
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787)
The cheapest EV in Australia is almost 2.5 times that.
Other countries may vary.
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e.g. There are "only five" automatic cars in Australia under AU$20,000
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787)
... and I wouldn't touch any of them
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If there is one thing that seems almost certain, it's that it's unlikely that any manufacturer is going to be able to make an EV car any time soon that can compete with the price point of an ICE.
e.g. There are "only five" automatic cars in Australia under AU$20,000
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787)
The cheapest EV in Australia is almost 2.5 times that.
Other countries may vary.
There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery. So, there is only one area where innovation is needed to make a substantial difference to the cost of a car. When you need many innovations to change a market you know things will move slowly, but when only one innovation is needed there could be a breakthrough at any time. That makes the price trajectory of electric cars very uncertain. Most current electric cars aren't even trying to be cheap. With the overhead of the battery cost they bias most cars towards the luxury end of the market, with only a few models, like the Skoda Citigoe iV / VW E-Up / Seat Mii (all basically the same car), going for the stripped down approach. A single major battery price innovation could see a scramble for simple stripped down cars.
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If there is one thing that seems almost certain, it's that it's unlikely that any manufacturer is going to be able to make an EV car any time soon that can compete with the price point of an ICE.
e.g. There are "only five" automatic cars in Australia under AU$20,000
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/best-small-cars-under-20000-78787)
The cheapest EV in Australia is almost 2.5 times that.
Other countries may vary.
There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery. So, there is only one area where innovation is needed to make a substantial difference to the cost of a car. When you need many innovations to change a market you know things will move slowly, but when only one innovation is needed there could be a breakthrough at any time. That makes the price trajectory of electric cars very uncertain. Most current electric cars aren't even trying to be cheap. With the overhead of the battery cost they bias most cars towards the luxury end of the market, with only a few models, like the Skoda Citigoe iV / VW E-Up / Seat Mii (all basically the same car), going for the stripped down approach. A single major battery price innovation could see a scramble for simple stripped down cars.
Likely a lot of BEVs are sold with a loss in the EU. It is cheaper to lose money on an EV rather than paying the (hefty) fines for not meeting average CO2 emissions.
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This news just came out yesterday:
https://www.caradvice.com.au/964668/new-renault-5-could-become-australias-cheapest-electric-car-cmf-bev-electric-platform-to-cut-prices-by-a-third/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/964668/new-renault-5-could-become-australias-cheapest-electric-car-cmf-bev-electric-platform-to-cut-prices-by-a-third/)
Still, an equivalent small ICE car is like 40% less than that.
And another cheap BYD claim:
https://www.caradvice.com.au/947563/2021-byd-ea1-australias-sub-35000-electric-car-revealed/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/947563/2021-byd-ea1-australias-sub-35000-electric-car-revealed/)
And a BYD van:
https://www.caradvice.com.au/956816/australias-cheapest-electric-vehicle-chinas-byd-promises-sub-35000-van-here-this-year/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/956816/australias-cheapest-electric-vehicle-chinas-byd-promises-sub-35000-van-here-this-year/)
FYI, BYD are the companu that made those electric busses I looked at.
Having an electric car option in the mid 30k range in Australia will make a big difference to uptake here.
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From the just held "Renault Eways" EV roadmap event, batteries keynote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9yUElnIg4&t=508s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA9yUElnIg4&t=508s)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/?action=dlattach;attach=1232360)
8:28 Target is for ~100 $/kWh pack in 2024 (the <20 $/kWh is relating to the BMS cost)
https://renaulteways.com/app/uploads/2021/06/Renault_eWAYS_C1_LOW.pdf (https://renaulteways.com/app/uploads/2021/06/Renault_eWAYS_C1_LOW.pdf)
Lots of other juicy info too.
"We are working to be the first to cross the line between ICE and BEV [...] we are aiming to halve the battery cost again within the next 10 year and we target with double the energy density at the cell level" - Gilles le Borgne, EVP Engineering, Renault @1:03
Also looks like they are targeting "ASSB" (All Solid State Battery) technology.
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Setting a target does not mean it will be achieved.
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Setting a target does not mean it will be achieved.
But it does show that Tesla is not alone in it's goals.
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Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project - how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo? :D
Or the sound of the monster ants from Them!.
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There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery
From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.
We'll see how the VW ID.3 does ...
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There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery
From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.
The hidden costs are the devil in the detail. The paradigm shift for mechanics who don't understand the workings and the accredited, expensive few who do. Not talked about is the shoe-horning in of the refuse-to-operate circuitry when the system detects/decides all is not OK. To be fair tho, all new cars are suffering from this a bit.
You should get 5 good years out of an electric car. After that it becomes harder to pass muster. Look toward Japan for a glimpse on how 5 year old cars will soon be regarded. Yet, the car dealerships fool the buyers into thinking the car will be around for as long as their current one.
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There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery
From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.
The hidden costs are the devil in the detail. The paradigm shift for mechanics who don't understand the workings and the accredited, expensive few who do. Not talked about is the shoe-horning in of the refuse-to-operate circuitry when the system detects/decides all is not OK. To be fair tho, all new cars are suffering from this a bit.
You should get 5 good years out of an electric car. After that it becomes harder to pass muster. Look toward Japan for a glimpse on how 5 year old cars will soon be regarded. Yet, the car dealerships fool the buyers into thinking the car will be around for as long as their current one.
Don't most car buyers go with some kind of contract for a fixed period - 2, 3, 5 years?
I would guess that if electric cars have shorter lives than existing ICE cars, industry beancounters will feel they have made progress!
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Don't most car buyers go with some kind of contract for a fixed period - 2, 3, 5 years?
Majority of people buy their cars outright, at least 80% here in Australia:
https://www.finder.com.au/car-loan-statistics (https://www.finder.com.au/car-loan-statistics)
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Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan. I refuse to borrow money to buy a depreciating asset but I've always preferred to buy older cars and fix them up anyway.
5 years seems awfully short, I think pretty much all EVs have an 8 year warranty on the battery. People may just have to change their attitudes some on what is a reasonable amount to spend fixing up an older car. I would be fine with spending $8k on a new battery for a car that is worth $5k because then it has a brand new battery so the main thing that depreciates is now brand new. I've never understood the mentality so many have of not wanting to spend more fixing a car than it's worth because you almost always spend more on a car than it's worth, they depreciate, as soon as you sign the paperwork on a new car it's worth less than you just paid for it, often significantly less. It's worth spending a few thousand repairing a car that isn't worth much if I get a few thousand worth of transportation out of it. I'm paying for transportation, not investing my money.
Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.
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Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
5 years seems awfully short, I think pretty much all EVs have an 8 year warranty on the battery.
Yes. My IONIQ has a 5 year new car warranty and 8 years on the battery. I'd be stunned if it doesn't last 10 years at least.
Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
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Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.
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Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
Brakes cost next to nothing to replace. The majority of the maintenance cost of any car during the lifetime are suspension parts and tyres. For BEVs those costs are even higher because BEVs are heavier causing more wear on the suspension & tyres. Cost for belt & oil changes are peanuts in comparison.
Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.
A car doesn't need to cost thousands of dollars. Lots of choice on the used car market. Also saving up is way cheaper than taking out a loan for a new or used car. Over here leasing a car is becoming more and more popular but it is very expensive. Then again some people still see a car as some kind of status symbol and want to spend their hard earned cash on something that depreciates like crazy and sits still most of the time.
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[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
...if you live in a benign climate. In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...
This is especially true with hybrids and electrics... because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.
A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.
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[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
...if you live in a benign climate. In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...
This is especially true with hybrids and electrics... because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.
A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.
You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.
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Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back
I'm never going to be free of fucking shoe springs, am I? The beatings will continue..
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Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.
I'm talking about people that gets loans for new cars that cost 5-10 times what a reasonable old 2nd hand car would cost. Maybe double that again once you factor in interest over time. It's dumb.
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I'm talking about people that gets loans for new cars that cost 5-10 times what a reasonable old 2nd hand car would cost. Maybe double that again once you factor in interest over time. It's dumb.
Young people can be seduced by both the car and the car sales person who can show that the buyer can indeed afford the car when presented with an attractive fortnightly/monthly payment. The financier focuses the buyer on repayment rather than grand total. It's all about getting sir into the car today. (Or madam as well, I suppose.)
Young people in Sydney are disproportionately buying cars under finance that they cannot possibly afford. It's a symptom of disposable income. Saving pennies burns a hole in their pocket, yet they want something to show for their labour.
I should also remind any Australian used car buyers to utilise the Revs Check service to find out if a car has money owing. Do not let the dealer talk you out of doing this.
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Oh, and am I late to the partay by noticing the EEVblog # for the electric car is 1337?
:P
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[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
...if you live in a benign climate. In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...
This is especially true with hybrids and electrics... because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.
A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.
You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.
Most people are better off with drum-type rear brakes, but it just isn't sexy enough...
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[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.
...if you live in a benign climate. In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...
This is especially true with hybrids and electrics... because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.
A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.
You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.
Most people are better off with drum-type rear brakes, but it just isn't sexy enough...
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car. Or put differently: the worst case amount of energy the brake system needs to cope with. Remember energy = mass * velocity ^2. Since common BEVs typically don't have high top speeds, they can use drum brakes at the rear. In my experience drum brakes at the rear are much cheaper to maintain.
BTW: the front wheels always get most of the braking action because the weight shifts towards the front when braking. This goes for any type of car and the difference is significant (ball park: 25% rear / 75% front).
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[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car.
[...]
And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
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And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/
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[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car.
[...]
And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
No, doesn't matter. You snipped the words 'worst case'. Unless a manufacturer really cut corners and the regulators aren't watching, you can't get enough energy in the car for the brakes to overheat. At least in the EU it is part of the vehicle testing/regulations before it is allowed to be sold in the EU. Ofcourse the driver can still do stupid things like going downhill with the brakes applied but even the biggest disk brakes aren't up to such abuse.
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And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/
Doesn't it depend on the car? Some electric cars seem to be able to regenerate so much that they will roll slowly down the steepest hills without the friction brakes applied. Others seem to top out their regenertaion quite early, and the friction brakes are needed quite a lot in a very hilly area.
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Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/)
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You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/
Doesn't it depend on the car? Some electric cars seem to be able to regenerate so much that they will roll slowly down the steepest hills without the friction brakes applied. Others seem to top out their regenertaion quite early, and the friction brakes are needed quite a lot in a very hilly area.
I can only speak for the IONIQ. My house is at the bottom of a very steep road, about as steep as you can get, and yes, no need for friction brakes.
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About the only time an EV will need brakes is when you have the edge case of a long downhill with a fully charged, or near fully charged, battery, so that regenerative braking is not able to be used, as there is no load available to dump the energy into. Edge case, in most cases you will have a battery under 80%, which will accept charge up to a point, and which will take the majority of recovered energy. However the actual friction brakes will still get some use, even if it is minimal, so should at least get enough use to keep them rust free.
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Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/)
As I expected, the start of importing China made Model 3s has resulted in significant price reductions for Australia.
From article Dave linked:
"Tesla has slashed the prices of its Model 3 sedan – now sourced from China – with savings of between $3000 and $9000 off the most recent RRPs, and more than $17,000 off the highest price from 12 months ago."
Cited article for China import: https://www.caradvice.com.au/958695/australias-largest-ever-tesla-shipment-arrives-in-port-kembla-nsw/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/958695/australias-largest-ever-tesla-shipment-arrives-in-port-kembla-nsw/)
Edit: found my quote from last year
[...]
I think the newer Tesla models (3 and Y) are also good value (outside Australia) if you can consider stuff like supercharger networks, auto pilot and reputation for excellent battery life. Although on the point of battery life, all manufacturers are offering pretty equal warranty on batteries for their newer models. With the news Tesla is likely to start shipping cars out of their Giga Shanghai factory (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-11/tesla-plans-to-start-shipping-china-built-cars-to-europe-asia)) the cost of a Tesla in Australia will hopefully go down in the "near future".
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Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/)
Now compare prices & sales numbers with those of VW's ID.3 and ID.4 (if these are available in Australia). Chances are the Model3 doesn't sell very well so they have to cut the price. In the NL VW's ID.3 + ID.4 models outsell all models from Tesla 14 to 1 from the start of 2021.
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[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car.
[...]
And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
No, doesn't matter. You snipped the words 'worst case'. Unless a manufacturer really cut corners and the regulators aren't watching, you can't get enough energy in the car for the brakes to overheat. At least in the EU it is part of the vehicle testing/regulations before it is allowed to be sold in the EU. Ofcourse the driver can still do stupid things like going downhill with the brakes applied but even the biggest disk brakes aren't up to such abuse.
I used to do track days, where people brought in their "ordinary" cars for a day of fun. Trust me, brakes can and do overheat when the car is driven hard...
Larger brakes shed heat better. On the street, this is rarely an issue unless you're descending a mountain. On the track, the brakes are used hard, often several times a minute, building up heat that can't be shed as fast as it builds up... the discs can literally glow!
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And, crucially, on how the car is being driven... a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs... (and larger than standard discs up front, too). It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.
You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/
I can see that applying to an EV. Wonder if driving an EV hard ends up heating up the generators / charging circuits / battery, so the car eventually switches to using friction brakes? - that seems to happen with my hybrid Ford in hilly/ mountainous driving conditions....
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Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/)
Now compare prices & sales numbers with those of VW's ID.3 and ID.4 (if these are available in Australia). Chances are the Model3 doesn't sell very well so they have to cut the price. In the NL VW's ID.3 + ID.4 models outsell all models from Tesla 14 to 1 from the start of 2021.
Neither are available. VW sells no EVs in Australia. I guess they aren't having to pay fines or offset penalties here. Trying to apply your EU market observations where you have "domestic" production of EVs to Australia is flawed.
"The top-selling electric car in Europe in 2020, the Volkswagen ID.3, won't be launched in Australia until at least 2023, its maker says. ... So, why didn't Volkswagen sell a single EV in Australia in 2020? Because there were none for sale." https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-04-20/australians-want-to-buy-electric-cars-what-is-stopping-us/100071550 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-04-20/australians-want-to-buy-electric-cars-what-is-stopping-us/100071550)
List of EVs available in Australia with prices: https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/electric-cars-australia (https://rac.com.au/car-motoring/info/electric-cars-australia)
This is how Tesla sales are in Australia
(https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/tesla-sales-2021.jpg)
https://thedriven.io/2021/06/25/tesla-model-3-gains-on-australian-ice-market-as-2021-sales-reach-new-high/ (https://thedriven.io/2021/06/25/tesla-model-3-gains-on-australian-ice-market-as-2021-sales-reach-new-high/)
One of the most popular vehicles full stop; let alone electric.
(https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/EV-Sales-Aust-Q1-2021-YTD-1.jpg)
Note: Graph is truncated at 1000, not even showing full extent of Model 3 popularity.
https://thedriven.io/2021/04/09/tesla-mg-and-porsche-lead-doubling-of-electric-car-sales-in-first-quarter/ (https://thedriven.io/2021/04/09/tesla-mg-and-porsche-lead-doubling-of-electric-car-sales-in-first-quarter/)
"Over the past two years Tesla has sold almost twice as many electric cars in Australia compared to all other electric vehicles combined." https://www.caradvice.com.au/914746/exclusive-tesla-sales-in-australia-revealed-up-16-per-cent-in-2020/ (https://www.caradvice.com.au/914746/exclusive-tesla-sales-in-australia-revealed-up-16-per-cent-in-2020/)
"Tesla imported more battery-electric vehicles into Australia in 2020 than all other brands combined" https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/tesla-dominates-australian-ev-sales-128929/ (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/tesla-dominates-australian-ev-sales-128929/)
More historical data and sources on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Australia)
Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger. Now with lowered costs it's bound to get even stronger market share in Australia.
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No, the only thing your graph shows is lack of serious competition for Tesla.
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No, the only thing your graph shows is lack of serious competition for Tesla.
And yet its the best that there is by a huge margin.
What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
What is clear is that Volkswagen deliberately decided to price the ID.4 very aggressively in the US, possibly below its manufacturing costs – something the automotive market classifies as "buying market share." That would make it lose money in each unit it sells in the country for an even more compelling apology note due to Dieselgate.
https://insideevs.com/news/506341/vw-id4-profitability-us-price/
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I used to do track days, where people brought in their "ordinary" cars for a day of fun. Trust me, brakes can and do overheat when the car is driven hard...
Larger brakes shed heat better. On the street, this is rarely an issue unless you're descending a mountain. On the track, the brakes are used hard, often several times a minute, building up heat that can't be shed as fast as it builds up... the discs can literally glow!
I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.
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What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries
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What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries
That's a fair point for smaller vehicles but the ID.4 though?
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What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries
I lot of people don't know how big the Telsa model S is, it's an enornmous car.
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I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.
That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
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I've done that too, and yes I've seen front brake discs glowing orange. I've also seen it happen in a car that got a seized caliper piston but that's obviously a malfunction and not normal expected behavior. It's not uncommon to overheat brakes coming down mountain passes in a car with an automatic gearbox too, there's much less engine braking and you end up riding the brakes a lot when it's miles of steep downhill driving.
That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.
That's why almost every automatic has the ability for the driver to force the car into a lower gear. If you don't use that you certainly will have brake heat problems on steep declines. Some automatics now sense when the car is on a steep decline, and use a lower gear automatically.
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society
So what, people that cannot (or won't) buy Tesla should buy a bicycle ??
LOL... :-DD
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society
I suspect most of the people who have been working from home for the first time in the last year will gradually return to working in offices. However, if they don't it will be interesting to see what this does to car ownership. The key reason for a lot of people's car ownership is commuting. If they don't commute, calling a taxi a couple of times a week might be a lot cheaper. However, there are only a few places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, where people would rather use public transport than own a car right now.
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That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
I mean if people really wanted best cost-utility then there are good reasons to not even bother owning a car at all; as is the case for many young Australians, particularly those living in cities.
...post-ownership society
So what, people that cannot (or won't) buy Tesla should buy a bicycle ??
LOL... :-DD
Pretty much :palm: Buying any car is a luxury and a "flex". If people have disposable income for buying a new car might as well have it be a flashy Tesla. That's my feeling from talking to the millennial crowd.
In Australia it would be more taking public transport or ride sharing (Uber) rather than cycling.
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You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
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With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
I don't like having debt and bills hanging over my head, even if the interest is ridiculously low like that. I don't buy new cars though, and of the people I know who do buy new cars, it's only the really wealthy ones who pay cash for new cars, the vast majority of people take out a loan.
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I suspect most of the people who have been working from home for the first time in the last year will gradually return to working in offices. However, if they don't it will be interesting to see what this does to car ownership. The key reason for a lot of people's car ownership is commuting. If they don't commute, calling a taxi a couple of times a week might be a lot cheaper. However, there are only a few places, like Hong Kong and Singapore, where people would rather use public transport than own a car right now.
Even when I was commuting to the office I took the bus. My car is for everything else, I can't take the bus to our vacation cabin, I can't take the bus to the hardware store, I can't haul a load of lumber on a roof rack with an Uber ride. Public transit isn't really a viable option in the suburbs and I hate city life.
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
The first EVs I saw a lot of over here were Nissan Leafs, it seemed like they were everywhere. Lately it's Teslas, it's really rare that I go anywhere without seeing several of them on the road. They're not cheap but ICE cars have gotten really expensive too, you don't see many cars of any type that are under about $40k anymore at which point $50k for a Tesla isn't all that much of a stretch. This area is admittedly quite affluent though, we have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and numerous other tech companies so people with money aren't rare. When I went for a walk the other night there was a Ferrari F355 parked on my street, I saw a Lotus the other day, lots of other upper middle class type luxury cars around too so my experience may not be typical.
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That happened to me driving in the in a rental coming down from a plateu in Arizona, the brakes were practically useless and we couldn't completely stop. Had to run up an enbankment to stop and let them cool down.
That's a really bad situation, as it seems you found out. The most dangerous thing about it is that you have to be aware of the potential for it to happen ahead of time because once the brakes fade you're kind of SOL. Usually I'd say use the brakes to slow down instead of putting wear on the engine but a mountain pass is a different situation.
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Confirms what I see anecdotally on the street. Tesla Model 3s seem like the most common EV I see around and it was only getting stronger.
That's because EV's in Australia are practically a luxury car price, and there has been incredibly limited choice and numbers compared to other countries. Those that have bought EV until now are usually well heeled people who want a status symbol, and the Tesla is the status symbol car. Until very recently you could not buy an EV in this country for under $50,000, which is around twice the price a good ICE car. So if you can afford a $50k+ EV then you can probably afford to shell out for the trendier Tesla 3 which until recently was coser to $80k.
Joe Average isn't buying a Tesla.
So I expect the dynamics of the EV market share to change once there are more lower cost options here. But I guess there is never any shortage of people will money, and people with money like status symbols.
The first EVs I saw a lot of over here were Nissan Leafs, it seemed like they were everywhere. Lately it's Teslas, it's really rare that I go anywhere without seeing several of them on the road. They're not cheap but ICE cars have gotten really expensive too, you don't see many cars of any type that are under about $40k anymore at which point $50k for a Tesla isn't all that much of a stretch. This area is admittedly quite affluent though, we have Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and numerous other tech companies so people with money aren't rare. When I went for a walk the other night there was a Ferrari F355 parked on my street, I saw a Lotus the other day, lots of other upper middle class type luxury cars around too so my experience may not be typical.
And that's the thing, people are buying expensive Tesla's because they can, and they are cool status symbol.
I see quite a few Tesla's around my area, and the further you go to the more affluent areas the more you see.
If I drive out to the less affulent areas in Sydney, you almost never see an EV, let alone a Tesla.
Not many ICE cars under $40k US? :-//
Australia has heaps of cars under AU$25k (US$19k), here is the top 5 rated:
https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/sedans-starting-under-25k (https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/sedans-starting-under-25k)
https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/best (https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/best)
And there is class of small under AU$20k with I think half dozen options.
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Not many ICE cars under $40k US? :-//
Australia has heaps of cars under AU$25k (US$19k), here is the top 5 rated:
https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/sedans-starting-under-25k (https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/sedans-starting-under-25k)
https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/best (https://www.carsguide.com.au/sedan/best)
And there is class of small under AU$20k with I think half dozen options.
They may be available, I haven't looked since I have no plans to ever buy a new car, but there are not many of them around. The VAST majority of cars I see around here are those stupid crossover SUVs followed by fullsized SUVs and pickup trucks. I absolutely hate crossovers but everybody else in the country seems to love the damn things. Since that's what everyone buys, that's what all the dealers sell. I see quite a few Toyota Prius's too, I don't know what they cost but they aren't cheap. As I mentioned though, this is an affluent area, there's no way I could even afford to live here anymore if I didn't buy my place back when things were somewhat reasonable. With a median house price north of $600k I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there aren't a lot of people buying new budget cars. People expect a lot of options today that would have formerly been considered luxuries too. I don't remember when I last saw a car with manual windows, steel wheels, or without AC, cruise control, climate control or other expensive gadgets.
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What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries
Ever increasing sales numbers of SUVs in the EU disagree with this statement. Besides that the Tesla model 3 is not a particulary big car. What the VW ID.3 lacks in length it makes up in height compared to Tesla's model 3. All in all the volume of both cars is pretty close.
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exactly! Spend other people's money as much as you can allow. Put it to use.
Successful business people use debt extensively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
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What makes the VW EVs popular in EU and the US is artificially reduced price to comply with regulations/fines and local production.
Also, smaller cars are much more popular in Europe due to congested city streets and parking issues - that is a significant reason the likes of the Zoe, i3 and ID3 are more popular than Tesla in many countries
Ever increasing sales numbers of SUVs in the EU disagree with this statement. Besides that the Tesla model 3 is not a particulary big car.
Just because SUVs are popular with some people doesn't mean that small cars aren't also very popular, much more so than in the US. Here in the UK, you see Fiat 500s, Smarts, i10s etc. absolutely everywhere, maybe 1 in 2 cars is a small hatchback.
What the VW ID.3 lacks in length it makes up in height compared to Tesla's model 3. All in all the volume of both cars is pretty close.
Height isn't an issue for narrow streets and limited parking.
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exactly! Spend other people's money as much as you can allow. Put it to use.
Successful business people use debt extensively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
Not in Australia.
And this doesn't include any fine print.
Not to mention that taking out a loan sucks a lot of people into getting a much more expensive care than they can afford. Joe Average is much better off paying cash for sensible used car.
You also get better cash deals then with financing.
https://i.imgur.com/eCtXW8i.png
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exactly! Spend other people's money as much as you can allow. Put it to use.
Successful business people use debt extensively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money)
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
Not in Australia.
And this doesn't include any fine print.
Not to mention that taking out a loan sucks a lot of people into getting a much more expensive care than they can afford. Joe Average is much better off paying cash for sensible used car.
You also get better cash deals then with financing.
I think he's talking about dealership loans, not 3rd party car loans which are typically extremely scummy as you say. Example offer from Hyundai:
(https://i.imgur.com/nVfCCKQ.png)
https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/offers/kona-electric/offer-detail?variantId=314 (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/offers/kona-electric/offer-detail?variantId=314)
Edit: without special offers, 2.9% or 3.9% seems to be the common comparison rate for direct from OEM financing.
https://i.imgur.com/i0wXrsO.png (https://i.imgur.com/i0wXrsO.png)
https://www.nissan.com.au/offers.html#category=Offer&model=LEAFZE1A (https://www.nissan.com.au/offers.html#category=Offer&model=LEAFZE1A)
https://i.imgur.com/ikYR4ux.png (https://i.imgur.com/ikYR4ux.png)
https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#payment (https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#payment)
https://i.imgur.com/LfD9Dvl.png (https://i.imgur.com/LfD9Dvl.png)
https://www.toyota.com.au/current-offers (https://www.toyota.com.au/current-offers)
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What the VW ID.3 lacks in length it makes up in height compared to Tesla's model 3. All in all the volume of both cars is pretty close.
Height isn't an issue for narrow streets and limited parking.
The VW ID.3 is as wide as the Tesla model 3. IIRC 30% of the cars sold in the EU are SUVs and that number has been steadily rising over the past few years.
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exactly! Spend other people's money as much as you can allow. Put it to use.
Successful business people use debt extensively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_value_of_money)
You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.
With the financing rates they typically offer on new cars, like < 1%pa over 7 years, you'd have to be dumb not to. It's better-than-free money.
Not in Australia.
And this doesn't include any fine print.
Not to mention that taking out a loan sucks a lot of people into getting a much more expensive care than they can afford. Joe Average is much better off paying cash for sensible used car.
You also get better cash deals then with financing.
I think he's talking about dealership loans, not 3rd party car loans which are typically extremely scummy as you say. Example offer from Hyundai:
(https://i.imgur.com/nVfCCKQ.png)
https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/offers/kona-electric/offer-detail?variantId=314 (https://www.hyundai.com/au/en/offers/kona-electric/offer-detail?variantId=314)
Edit: without special offers, 2.9% or 3.9% seems to be the common comparison rate for direct from OEM financing.
As Dave already noted: you can likely get a better deal (=more discount) if you pay cash. What you don't pay in interest, you pay extra to the dealer using borrowed money. All in all getting a third party loan or one from the OEM is likely costing you the same if you add it all up.
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As Dave already noted: you can likely get a better deal (=more discount) if you pay cash. What you don't pay in interest, you pay extra to the dealer using borrowed money. All in all getting a third party loan or one from the OEM is likely costing you the same if you add it all up.
Yep.
You usually won't get any discount if getting dealer financing, they will convince you it's cheap based on repayments.
You can easily save 5-10% off the price by paying cash, right off the bat, and likely a better offer on your trade-in if you have one.
And it's a 4 year term, so repayments are pretty steep anyway, might as well pay cash and get a hefty discount.
The only argument is of course that you can use the money to better effect someone else, and that can be true of course, but as I said, cheap dealer financing often tricks people into paying more for a car they otherwise can't afford. And of course, if your financial situation changes, or that other investment you put that cash toward instead comes-a-gutsa, then you could be screwed.
Safer, always cheaper, and less pressure to pay cash for a car.
The current affairs programs are litteed with stories of people who have taken out car financing and regretted it.
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As Dave already noted: you can likely get a better deal (=more discount) if you pay cash. What you don't pay in interest, you pay extra to the dealer using borrowed money. All in all getting a third party loan or one from the OEM is likely costing you the same if you add it all up.
Yep.
You usually won't get any discount if getting dealer financing, they will convince you it's cheap based on repayments.
You can easily save 5-10% off the price by paying cash, right off the bat, and likely a better offer on your trade-in if you have one.
And it's a 4 year term, so repayments are pretty steep anyway, might as well pay cash and get a hefty discount.
The only argument is of course that you can use the money to better effect someone else, and that can be true of course, but as I said, cheap dealer financing often tricks people into paying more for a car they otherwise can't afford. And of course, if your financial situation changes, or that other investment you put that cash toward instead comes-a-gutsa, then you could be screwed.
Safer, always cheaper, and less pressure to pay cash for a car.
The current affairs programs are litteed with stories of people who have taken out car financing and regretted it.
I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
Managing monthly repayments to actually get a benefit requires stricter financial planning, less you end up putting yourself in a bad position. However as has also been acknowledged, there is potential benefit to the cheap/free credit on offer.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
And of course, if your financial situation changes, or that other investment you put that cash toward instead comes-a-gutsa, then you could be screwed.
Safer, always cheaper, and less pressure to pay cash for a car.
Not just that. Owning a car means having a way to go where you need to go no matter what happens. At a former employer I used to have a company car. When the company went bust I had to turn the car in and was left with no means of transportation when I needed it the most to get to job interviews. Since then I have respectfully declined a company car and made sure I owned a car 100%.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
You know these large OEMs are their own banks right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital)
Retracted. see below (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-1337-i-bought-an-electric-car/msg3608162/#msg3608162)
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership.
Of course you are personally negotiating with the dealership, how else would you do it?
Try buying a new car sometime and see how much you can get of the ticket price, particually at the end of the month when their sales quota is due, 5% is trivial to get.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
You know these large OEMs are their own banks right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital
Nope, it's StGeorge bank:
nctnico is right, you will pay for that, usually by not getting as good a discount as you can with cash. And doesn't include fees and changes.
So take a $50,000 ticket price car.
For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
And if you have financial problems then you can't just sell the car because you don't own it, and you are still on the hook for the repayments.
But if you paid cash for the car, not only do you save a big chunk of cash, you can sell the car because you own it and can immediately recoup some cash.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
You know these large OEMs are their own banks right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital
Nope, it's StGeorge bank:
nctnico is right, you will pay for that, usually by not getting as good a discount as you can with cash. And doesn't include fees and changes.
So take a $50,000 ticket price car.
For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
And if you have financial problems then you can't just sell the car because you don't own it, and you are still on the hook for the repayments.
But if you paid cash for the car, not only do you save a big chunk of cash, you can sell the car because you own it and can immediately recoup some cash.
Thanks Dave, great response. Retracting my previous statement.
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I don't like having debt and bills hanging over my head, even if the interest is ridiculously low like that. I don't buy new cars though, and of the people I know who do buy new cars, it's only the really wealthy ones who pay cash for new cars, the vast majority of people take out a loan.
OK, do it this way: Save up for a car then take out a loan and put the spare money into an investment fund. The money will grow a couple of thousand per year and you'll make a profit over the repayment period without having a single thing "hanging over your head" - you know you'll always have the money to meet the payments.
That ^ is the reason people say "you'd be crazy not to!".
Most people don't do that of course they just take out the loans and cross their fingers. The advantage is they'll get their car today while you're still saving up for yours.
PS: You can usually get a better deal on your car if you don't pay cash. Dealers hate cash, they make no profit on cash-paid cars. They make more profit on the loans. If you go into a car dealership saying you want to pay in cash then you're screwed in terms of negotiation on the price.
https://www.google.com/search?q=don't+pay+cash+for+cars&&tbm=vid (https://www.google.com/search?q=don't+pay+cash+for+cars&&tbm=vid)
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For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
How much interest can you earn on a $40k investment fund over five years? At 12% growth per year it makes 75%* which would be $30k interest. It completely dwarfs the $6k interest you'd pay on the car loan and your car would cost you half as much.
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For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
How much interest can you earn on a $40k investment fund over five years? At 12% growth per year it makes 75%* which would be $30k interest. It completely dwarfs the $6k interest you'd pay on the car loan and your car would cost you half as much.
Where are you getting a 12% YoY?!
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PS: You can usually get a better deal on your car if you don't pay cash. Dealers hate cash, they make no profit on cash-paid cars. They make more profit on the loans. If you go into a car dealership saying you want to pay in cash then you're screwed in terms of negotiation on the price.
Which inherently means you get the best deal if you pay directly (either through physical money or a bank transfer). >:D
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I've been told you never want to tell a dealer that you plan to pay cash until you've negotiated a final price and have it in writing. They make money off the loans so if they know ahead of time that you're paying cash they're less likely to negotiate as low a price. I don't know if this applies elsewhere though, I can only offer the American perspective. I'm also not somebody who buys new cars so I've always paid cash and bought from a private seller but *somebody* has to buy new cars from dealers or there wouldn't be any used cars for people like me.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
You know these large OEMs are their own banks right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital
Nope, it's StGeorge bank:
nctnico is right, you will pay for that, usually by not getting as good a discount as you can with cash. And doesn't include fees and changes.
So take a $50,000 ticket price car.
For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
And if you have financial problems then you can't just sell the car because you don't own it, and you are still on the hook for the repayments.
But if you paid cash for the car, not only do you save a big chunk of cash, you can sell the car because you own it and can immediately recoup some cash.
Maybe the situation is different in Australia, or with different makes (I have only bought new Japanese makes that are known for not really negotiating much on price) but that has not been the case in my experience in Canada. Most dealers aren't really willing to give anything meaningful in the way of discounts whether you are paying cash or using financing. If there's a difference, it's small. There's a complicated relationship between the car maker and the dealership that I don't fully understand, but I believe the cheap credit is financed by the make, *not* the dealer, while any cash discounts they give you come directly out of the dealer's profit margin.
And your math ignores the time value of the money you don't have tied up in the car. Let's say you have $50k in cash on hand, and you draw from it to pay off the loan, so this is a self contained system.
If you pay cash, it's simple, the car costs you the $46k you claim you can negotiate it down to, you invest the remaining $4k for the 7 years at an achievable 5%, and end up with $4749.
If you finance and instead put the $50k in investments, 49k @ 1.5% over 7 years results in a monthly payment of $647.45. If you plug this into a 'savings calculator with regular withdrawals', and a compound interest of 5%, simulating investing this money at 5% and then drawing it down to pay the loan, we find a future value of $5673. This is considerably more than the $4749 you would be left with paying cash, despite the lower cash price.
Of course lots of people are irresponsible and buy cars they can't afford on credit, and buying a new car is not always going to be a prudent choice, but the point is that all else being equal, taking the financing is usually a better financial decision. It also gives you considerably more flexibility, since you have less tied up in an asset that has depreciated considerably and isn't all that liquid.
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And your math ignores the time value of the money you don't have tied up in the car.
Yes, I know, and I mentioned that. I was never saying there is no place for credit.
But the fact is if things go finally pear shaped and/or you are unable to invest that money better in the following years, then you are almost certainly going to be worse off with a loan than buying outright.
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Of course lots of people are irresponsible and buy cars they can't afford on credit, and buying a new car is not always going to be a prudent choice, but the point is that all else being equal, taking the financing is usually a better financial decision. It also gives you considerably more flexibility, since you have less tied up in an asset that has depreciated considerably and isn't all that liquid.
Depends on how you define "flexibility".
Capital flexibility, yes, but when you don't own the car and you are locked into a legal debt arrangement, that's certainly not my definition of "flexibility". As always, YMMV.
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For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
How much interest can you earn on a $40k investment fund over five years?
Potentially negative if your investment goes pear shaped.
Look, there is no hard and fast right answer here. If you want lessen your capital outlay and think you can invest the money better, then go for it. But for Joe Average, it's most likely going to cost them more and offers greater downwide and less flexibility if you take out a loan for car. As a general rule I would recomment that no one take out a loan for a car. Only buy the car that you can afford to pay cash for.
In the example above, buy a reliable 10k car and keep the extra $40k.
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In the example above, buy a reliable 10k car and keep the extra $40k.
Totes. And it makes perfect sense to us. 40 grand can buy alot of new motors, gearboxes diffs etc.
But I think everyone is missing the point. Young people are not only mechanically ill-inclined, there are many grads and under grads who feel that acquiring a car with problems and having to work on it to get it ship-shape is beneath them.
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Only buy the car that you can afford to pay cash for.
In the example above, buy a reliable 10k car and keep the extra $40k.
QFT.
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I'm not quite convinced that cash up front has quite such a significant discount. Maybe if you are personally negotiating it with the dealership. Anyway I just wanted to point out better value financing can be had direct from OEMs/dealerships. After all, they make money from the car sale itself and don't have to make money from charging interest and fees as dedicated loan providers do.
That is where you are severely wrong! Car dealers aren't banks; the loans are outsourced to banks and they won't settle for a low interest rate. So the dealer has to make the profit from the car. Probably the dealer gets a kickback fee from the bank as well but guess who pays that... you!
You know these large OEMs are their own banks right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Capital
Nope, it's StGeorge bank:
nctnico is right, you will pay for that, usually by not getting as good a discount as you can with cash. And doesn't include fees and changes.
So take a $50,000 ticket price car.
For cash you can pay say $46k and you are done.
For credit you'll pay maybe $49k (so you feel good you are getting some discount) and you pay at least a 1.5% comparison rate on $40k, so $500/year interest at least, that's $2k, plus fees and changes let's assume another $1k. So you've paid say $52k vs $46k, or $6k more than cash.
And if you have financial problems then you can't just sell the car because you don't own it, and you are still on the hook for the repayments.
But if you paid cash for the car, not only do you save a big chunk of cash, you can sell the car because you own it and can immediately recoup some cash.
Maybe the situation is different in Australia, or with different makes (I have only bought new Japanese makes that are known for not really negotiating much on price) but that has not been the case in my experience in Canada. Most dealers aren't really willing to give anything meaningful in the way of discounts whether you are paying cash or using financing. If there's a difference, it's small. There's a complicated relationship between the car maker and the dealership that I don't fully understand, but I believe the cheap credit is financed by the make, *not* the dealer, while any cash discounts they give you come directly out of the dealer's profit margin.
And your math ignores the time value of the money you don't have tied up in the car. Let's say you have $50k in cash on hand, and you draw from it to pay off the loan, so this is a self contained system.
If you pay cash, it's simple, the car costs you the $46k you claim you can negotiate it down to, you invest the remaining $4k for the 7 years at an achievable 5%, and end up with $4749.
If you finance and instead put the $50k in investments, 49k @ 1.5% over 7 years results in a monthly payment of $647.45. If you plug this into a 'savings calculator with regular withdrawals', and a compound interest of 5%, simulating investing this money at 5% and then drawing it down to pay the loan, we find a future value of $5673. This is considerably more than the $4749 you would be left with paying cash, despite the lower cash price.
Actually, the term of the loan Dave is writing about is 4 years, not 7. Finding an investment which pays 5% guaranteed in 4 years will be hard. If it existed, the banks wouldn't loan money at 1.5% interest rate to people to buy cars but go for the 5% themselves. On the very long term you can do better than 5% but then you are talking about periods >10 years during which there will be a period where the worth of the fund will be lower than the amount you have invested.
PS: sorry for quoting so much text but I wanted to preserve the context.
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Actually, the term of the loan Dave is writing about is 4 years, not 7. Finding an investment which pays 5% guaranteed in 4 years will be hard. If it existed, the banks wouldn't loan money at 1.5% interest rate to people to buy cars but go for the 5% themselves. On the very long term you can do better than 5% but then you are talking about periods >10 years during which there will be a period where the worth of the fund will be lower than the amount you have invested.
My stock market portfolio that I created last October is is up 25% so far.
(Yeah, COVID, etc.)
Bank failure is a big deal. Banks are highly regulated over what they're allowed to do with other people's money, they need to be able to pay back all money in people's accounts at a moment's notice. A big dip in any "investment" like the stock market could wipe them out.
As a private investor you have an extremely high chance of earning more than 1.5% over five years. The stock market has maintained average 10% gains ever since it was created. If you own a diverse portfolio then that's pretty much what you'll get.
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As a private investor you have an extremely high chance of earning more than 1.5% over five years. The stock market has maintained average 10% gains ever since it was created. If you own a diverse portfolio then that's pretty much what you'll get.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A long time ago I worked at a stock broker and the first thing I noticed is that is takes quite a bit of effort and use of derivatives, loans and other investment types that mere mortals don't even have access to in order to get a good risk spread. And even then an event like Covid or the credit crunch can (temporarily) undo all the gains from the years before. That is also a likely moment you need your money to be untied from the investment. All in all not a very good idea.
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As a private investor you have an extremely high chance of earning more than 1.5% over five years. The stock market has maintained average 10% gains ever since it was created. If you own a diverse portfolio then that's pretty much what you'll get.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A long time ago I worked at a stock broker and the first thing I noticed is that is takes quite a bit of effort and use of derivatives, loans and other investment types that mere mortals don't even have access to in order to get a good risk spread. And even then an event like Covid or the credit crunch can (temporarily) undo all the gains from the years before. That is also a likely moment you need your money to be untied from the investment. All in all not a very good idea.
You should be in a mixture of stocks, bonds, and cash (and possibly real estate). If you are 100% in any one asset class, you are either a genius or doing something wrong! :D
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As a private investor you have an extremely high chance of earning more than 1.5% over five years. The stock market has maintained average 10% gains ever since it was created. If you own a diverse portfolio then that's pretty much what you'll get.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. A long time ago I worked at a stock broker and the first thing I noticed is that is takes quite a bit of effort and use of derivatives, loans and other investment types that mere mortals don't even have access to in order to get a good risk spread. And even then an event like Covid or the credit crunch can (temporarily) undo all the gains from the years before. That is also a likely moment you need your money to be untied from the investment. All in all not a very good idea.
You should be in a mixture of stocks, bonds, and cash (and possibly real estate). If you are 100% in any one asset class, you are either a genius or doing something wrong! :D
That is what I was trying to explain 8) People making huge profits like to show off but for every one of them there are a couple of thousand who lost.
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looks like Toyota is investing heavily into this technology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghIckc7nrY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghIckc7nrY)
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H2 in a car makes no sense whatsoever, except to rake in subventions bucks for research.
This is why Toyota i just a walking zombie company. Already dead.
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H2 in a car makes no sense whatsoever, except to rake in subventions bucks for research.
This is why Toyota i just a walking zombie company. Already dead.
Could be an option for long distance, but building the infrastructure is an uphill battle. I think biofuels would be the better choice given current technology.
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Biofuels are just as crap as H2.
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Biofuels are just as crap as H2.
Biofuels have many serious problems, but at least liquids are trivial to store and transport.
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H2 in a car makes no sense whatsoever, except to rake in subventions bucks for research.
It's a very safe bet that hydrogen will never be mainstream for cars. Maybe some niche in some area of the transport market, but Joe Average driving one, nope, doomed to failure.
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Biofuels are just as crap as H2.
As currently implemented, perhaps, but there's plenty of easy ways that can be improved. For example, ethanol from sugarcane gets a far higher yield than ethanol from corn. Biofuel crops can also be planted on land that otherwise would not be doing anything productive, for example front and back yards.
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Biofuels are just as crap as H2.
As currently implemented, perhaps, but there's plenty of easy ways that can be improved. For example, ethanol from sugarcane gets a far higher yield than ethanol from corn. Biofuel crops can also be planted on land that otherwise would not be doing anything productive, for example front and back yards.
The future are biofuels from agricultural and other plant based residus, not crop based biofuels.
And I wouldn't go around claiming that H2 isn't going to make it. Toyota still goes ahead with it and if you look at the facts you'll see that Toyota has been consistently improving their cars to be both healthier (less NOx) and have a lower CO2 footprint (and less SO2 output). Unlike other car companies they didn't participate in a cartel to make the emissions from their cars just good enough to pass regulations, Toyota does not need to sell BEVs to compensate for CO2 emissions, they have stopped selling diesels in Europe a long time ago and all the models they produce themselves are available as hybrids. People where laughing at the Prius 20+ years ago and the same people are laughing at the Mirai today. I'm pretty sure Toyota has run the numbers to optimise their profits long term. Germany is pretty far along with rolling out a hydrogen network. If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
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If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
That would only be the case for people who can't charge at home. Cars have to be parked somewhere, and providing charging in those places is going to be cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure.
Even if all hydrogen comes from renewables, it's still a fraction of the efficiency of BEV.
https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/
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If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
That would only be the case for people who can't charge at home. Cars have to be parked somewhere, and providing charging in those places is going to be cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure.
Charging 'at home' still needs public charging if the car is parked on the street. I'll get a 259 euro fine if I put an externsion cord over the sidewalk. The city does this to avoid people from creating dangerous situations. I already wrote that that would happen a long time ago and people here wouldn't believe it but now it is happening for real.
And ask yourself why nobody has an oil drum at home with gas to fill the car... it is because it is cheaper to bring the car to the gas station than having a big truck coming to your home and fill your oil drum every once in a while. That oil drum will also need certification and maintenance. A public charging point isn't any different. The Dutch government estimates that about 1 charging point is needed for every 2 or 3 cars if all cars are BEVs. That is extremely inefficient from a maintenance point of view. My conservative estimation is that a public (slow) charging point costs 500 to 1000 euro per year to install, maintain and have a grid connection for a period of 10 years. That money has to come from somewhere. Current prices are around 0.4 euro per kWh but none of the companies installing the charging points are making a profit.
Hydrogen OTOH can be dispensed quickly at centralised places (AKA gas stations) which allow for a much more efficient sharing of resources. The same however will be true for BEVs once batteries have evolved one or two generations which allow fast charging and have much higher energy densities. In that respect Toyota seems to wanting to skip the current crop of batteries and go straight for solid state.
Even if all hydrogen comes from renewables, it's still a fraction of the efficiency of BEV.
https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/
Efficiency doesn't matter at all. Only cost. Higher efficiency doesn't translate to lower cost by definition. In the end the only thing that matters to me is price per distance travelled. And from that perspective hydrogen is cheaper for me.
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Charging 'at home' still needs public charging if the car is parked on the street. I'll get a 259 euro fine if I put an externsion cord over the sidewalk. The city does this to avoid people from creating dangerous situations. I already wrote that that would happen a long time ago and people here wouldn't believe it but now it is happening for real.
Lots of people have written about this, including me in this forum. It represents a substantial infrastructure issue, because such a huge number of cars are always parked outside a home, with a sidewalk in the way. It can be handled, though. It just needs some changes to regulations. If every home with a driveway can get the sidewalk modified to provide a ramp up to that driveway, with full regulatory approval, I'm sure we can regulate to allow compliant charging posts outside each house. Its going to cost billions, though.
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If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
That would only be the case for people who can't charge at home. Cars have to be parked somewhere, and providing charging in those places is going to be cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure.
Charging 'at home' still needs public charging if the car is parked on the street.
Yes, EV's are at present really only a solution for those who can charge at home or work. If you can't do either of those then it's not very practical unless you want to spend 30-60 minutes at a charging station every week vs <3 minutes for an ICE car.
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If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
That would only be the case for people who can't charge at home. Cars have to be parked somewhere, and providing charging in those places is going to be cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure.
Even if all hydrogen comes from renewables, it's still a fraction of the efficiency of BEV.
https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/
Hydrogen can be made to work technically, but practically it's a mess. The problem is adoption. EV's can be charged at home with no additional infrastructure. I've had an EV for a year now and done 15,000km in it. I have only seriously needed to charge it twice at a public outlet, and one of those times was an impromptu trip that wasn't needed.
I don't know the number of people that have charge facilities at home and/or work, but let's assume it's half the population. EV's are instantly a win for something like half the population.
The rest of the population already has an ICE car and the massive infrastructure required to fuel them.
Starting from scrtch with hydrogen cars is just a complete non-starter for most of the population. What benefit is there over ICE that people genuinely care enough about to sacrifice practicality?
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Hydrogen is dead, it's a pipe dream from the 1990s, it buys me nothing over just continuing to use gasoline. I still have to go out and hunt for a place to buy fuel and that's the part I hate the most about driving a car. Not only that, I have to go hunt for one of the few and far between places that sells hydrogen, and they are never going to be widespread because electric already won a decade ago. A hydrogen car is EV prices without any of the benefits.
If you look among the people who own cars and drive them the most that is the people who live in the suburbs. Almost all of those who live in a house can already charge in their garage/carport/driveway, that is the primary market for EVs. Apartments and condos are next, more and more they will have charging available in the parking lots. Even urban situations where people park on the street this is totally solvable, mini-chargers installed along the curb or on light poles, but we don't really have to worry about those people right now, ICE cars are not going anywhere any time soon, most people who can't easily charge at home can keep driving those instead.
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Lots of people have written about this, including me in this forum. It represents a substantial infrastructure issue, because such a huge number of cars are always parked outside a home, with a sidewalk in the way. It can be handled, though. It just needs some changes to regulations. If every home with a driveway can get the sidewalk modified to provide a ramp up to that driveway, with full regulatory approval, I'm sure we can regulate to allow compliant charging posts outside each house. Its going to cost billions, though.
Just allow each homeowner who wants one to install one. It doesn't even have to be a hardwired charger, a pipe embedded in the sidewalk that they can run an extension cord through would suffice. Or a conduit to their house feeding a receptacle in a little locked box on the curb. Individual homeowners who need one can have it installed at their own expense and those that don't need it don't need to pay for it.
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Just allow each homeowner who wants one to install one. It doesn't even have to be a hardwired charger, a pipe embedded in the sidewalk that they can run an extension cord through would suffice. Or a conduit to their house feeding a receptacle in a little locked box on the curb. Individual homeowners who need one can have it installed at their own expense and those that don't need it don't need to pay for it.
There is a huge niche market there for those installers. Offer a turn-key compliant solution. The trick is the compliant part.
Technically, here the sidewalk would be the domain of the local council.
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There is a huge niche market there for those installers. Offer a turn-key compliant solution. The trick is the compliant part.
Technically, here the sidewalk would be the domain of the local council.
That's true in most places I think, but that is solvable. The buried utilities to my house pass through my property in an area that a utility easement, technically it's my property but I don't own the infrastructure that is buried there and if they need to come on my property and dig it up they can. There is no reason the regulations can't be changed to create a similar sort of easement on the public sidewalk, I don't own the sidewalk or the curb but I could reasonably be permitted to install a charging box on it. The rules can be changed at any time to meet the present day needs of the population.
Even simpler, allow a person to install a charging box on the edge of their property and use a flat cable that can lay across the sidewalk, or cut slots in the sidewalk just wide enough for a cable to lay in so nobody trips over it. Doesn't need to be more than about 15mm wide and maybe 20mm deep
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If I run the numbers for my situation, a car on hydrogen would be way cheaper for me to run compared to electric. A BEV makes no financial sense to me at all; public charging is simply too expensive (almost double the cost compared to fueling a hybrid). They probably figured that out at Toyota as well; charging a BEV is too expensive for a large number of people where hydrogen is not.
That would only be the case for people who can't charge at home. Cars have to be parked somewhere, and providing charging in those places is going to be cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure.
Even if all hydrogen comes from renewables, it's still a fraction of the efficiency of BEV.
https://insideevs.com/news/332584/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/
Hydrogen can be made to work technically, but practically it's a mess. The problem is adoption. EV's can be charged at home with no additional infrastructure. I've had an EV for a year now and done 15,000km in it. I have only seriously needed to charge it twice at a public outlet, and one of those times was an impromptu trip that wasn't needed.
I don't know the number of people that have charge facilities at home and/or work, but let's assume it's half the population. EV's are instantly a win for something like half the population.
According to Fasned (a Dutch company exploiting super chargers): In the NL 70% of the households can't charge from their own outlet. Inside cities this number rises to 90%.
The rest of the population already has an ICE car and the massive infrastructure required to fuel them.
Starting from scrtch with hydrogen cars is just a complete non-starter for most of the population. What benefit is there over ICE that people genuinely care enough about to sacrifice practicality?
15 years ago people where asking the same question about BEVs and yet here they are. What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip. And that is exactly why hydrogen is cheaper AND more practical for my situation. There are plans to ban ICEs alltogether in the EU (seeing is believing though) and that could drive a switch to hydrogen for many. And there are several other factors at play as well which are not just technical but also political. Just an example: a company installing charging points may not even get a permit to install a charging in front of my home due to zoning regulations. In some Dutch cities the city counsil has already stated that they don't want streets to become littered with charging points. The bottom line is that it is way to early to say hydrogen is dead. According to KPMG in their annual report on the automotive industry (which is based on what experts and consumers say), hydrogen cars and BEVs will be sold in equal numbers (same order of magnitude) in a couple of decades. Partly due to consumers wanting hydrogen cars.
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This is why Toyota i just a walking zombie company. Already dead.
That's news to me.
battery swap in 10 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz-3s1kCU0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz-3s1kCU0s)
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What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.
Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.
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Yes, EV's are at present really only a solution for those who can charge at home or work. If you can't do either of those then it's not very practical unless you want to spend 30-60 minutes at a charging station every week vs <3 minutes for an ICE car.
But they're still a lot more practical for those people than a hydrogen car. Even if I couldn't charge at home, at least I can still charge somewhere. If I want hydrogen I'd have to go to a welding supply shop and rent a tank of it, and then I'd have to find a way to get it into my car. Even in the worst case scenario I can get electricity from a multitude of sources, there are zero hydrogen filling stations for cars anywhere in my region. None. There are numerous EV chargers, and more all of the time. If you're going to install new infrastructure then EV charging stations are the obvious answer. A very distant alternative would be CNG, we already have natural gas piped to most homes and businesses around the country, all you need is a compressor to fill a CNG vehicle. It's pretty unlikely, but it makes a whole lot more sense than hydrogen. I really struggle to understand this mentality of "There is not sufficient infrastructure for EVs so let's all get hydrogen cars that have zero infrastructure!" :palm:
Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it. It's difficult and dangerous to store in large quantities, difficult to transport safely, difficult to store in a vehicle, there is zero infrastructure, it's just a total non starter. I would wager a considerable sum that hydrogen powered cars never reach 10% of the number of EVs on the road in my lifetime and I think 10% would be a very generous number, in reality 0.1% is unlikely to happen. It was a pipe dream of the 90s and earlier, it looked interesting back when battery technology was hopelessly inadequate for a practical car, we're long past that now, EVs have won, the battle is over and has been for several years now.
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What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.
Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.
How cheaper than gasoline? That just isn't possible (and given the lack of numbers in your post you probably know that). Fast charging along the highway sets me back about 0.80 euro per kWh. That is 0.16 euro per km. A Toyota Prius hybrid costs me 0.08 euro per km in fuel. Ask yourself why they never include hybrids in comparing BEVs with ICE cars... Hydrogen would have costed about 0.12 euro per km.
And then there is charging time. We just did a 5000+ km trip using the car. Assuming a BEV with a range of 400km which is charged to 80% using a fast charger in 30 minutes, this would have taken an extra 8 hours of travel time. Time I rather spend doing nice things than hanging around at a dreary gas station.
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What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.
Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.
4 super chargers in all of Sydney + a couple of other third party 250kW capable DC fast chargers.
Might be ok if you live near one, otherwise it would be a PITA.
(https://i.imgur.com/NXR2rRj.png)
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And then there is charging time. We just did a 5000+ km trip using the car. Assuming a BEV with a range of 400km which is charged to 80% using a fast charger in 30 minutes, this would have taken an extra 8 hours of travel time. Time I rather spend doing nice things than hanging around at a dreary gas station.
Yes. 3 minutes filling up an ICE car to give you 500km range is WAY better than waiting around for an hour. EV's won't approach this any time soon.
Long range touring is simply one of the downsides of an EV. If you are lucky you can carefully plan it and do it, but it's vastly more inconvenient than an an ICE car.
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Yes, EV's are at present really only a solution for those who can charge at home or work. If you can't do either of those then it's not very practical unless you want to spend 30-60 minutes at a charging station every week vs <3 minutes for an ICE car.
But they're still a lot more practical for those people than a hydrogen car. Even if I couldn't charge at home, at least I can still charge somewhere. If I want hydrogen I'd have to go to a welding supply shop and rent a tank of it, and then I'd have to find a way to get it into my car. Even in the worst case scenario I can get electricity from a multitude of sources, there are zero hydrogen filling stations for cars anywhere in my region. None. There are numerous EV chargers, and more all of the time. If you're going to install new infrastructure then EV charging stations are the obvious answer. A very distant alternative would be CNG, we already have natural gas piped to most homes and businesses around the country, all you need is a compressor to fill a CNG vehicle. It's pretty unlikely, but it makes a whole lot more sense than hydrogen. I really struggle to understand this mentality of "There is not sufficient infrastructure for EVs so let's all get hydrogen cars that have zero infrastructure!" :palm:
Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it. It's difficult and dangerous to store in large quantities, difficult to transport safely, difficult to store in a vehicle, there is zero infrastructure, it's just a total non starter. I would wager a considerable sum that hydrogen powered cars never reach 10% of the number of EVs on the road in my lifetime and I think 10% would be a very generous number, in reality 0.1% is unlikely to happen. It was a pipe dream of the 90s and earlier, it looked interesting back when battery technology was hopelessly inadequate for a practical car, we're long past that now, EVs have won, the battle is over and has been for several years now.
Yes, hydrogen is a dead end for consumer cars, it will never happen.
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Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it.
I think you have some gaps in your knowledge. By your definition (which is meaningless and oversimplifying), gasoline/diesel aren't fuels either. It's not mined. It is refined from petroleum with the addition of energy, just like hydrogen. Electricity for EV cars also needs to be generated first, and you need to put more energy into making it then you will transform into propulsion.(not even counting the batteries) That's just thermodynamics, but it doesn't concern the consumer. The bottom line is cost per km, so we'll see how that goes. Hydrogen is very efficient.
The is no combustion in a FCEV. H and O are combined via proton exchange membrane.
BEV had many problems at the beginning too (and still do). Hydrogen is just behind.
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The bottom line is cost per km, so we'll see how that goes. Hydrogen is very efficient.
Cost doesn't matter a rats arse if it's not practical for the consumer.
You could give people free hydrogen forever, or free EV charging forever, but if they don't have the means to readily refill in a practical manner then they aren't going to want it.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
Unless you did a lot of miles a day then you might only need to charge at home maybe once a week, and you'd usually do this overnight when you are sleeping.
We charge ours maybe once a week and the 280km range at 80% is enough for what we need it for.
The thing with EV's is that it's a good idea to keep them topped up just in case you have to go somewhere unexpected, because you likely can't just go somewhere and fast charge it at a moments notice like you can with an ICE car.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to. It doesn't need charging daily, the cable should be outside in a convenient location, it should not be dangling across the lawn or in the way of your mower, and rain and snow aren't problematic because, y'know, they're aware these things happen and design around the conditions.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to.
You don't have to buy an EV either.
Almost everyone buys a type of car that fits their various needs.
When we bought our Dualis +2 (ICE) family car a decade ago it had to physically fit in our small garage, so our buying decision was literally made with tape measure in hand.
When we got the EV we had to swap sides in the garage so the charging was more convenient. Now we are looking at taking out the centre pylon and having one big garage door instead of two. The charger is currently on the center pylon so we'll have to find another solution.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to.
You don't have to buy an EV either.
Yet..
And yes, my last car purchase was not an EV, because there just isn't one which suits my needs.
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4 super chargers in all of Sydney + a couple of other third party 250kW capable DC fast chargers.
Might be ok if you live near one, otherwise it would be a PITA.
I don't know anything about Sydney but they're all over the place out here and they keep installing more of them. Then there are the third party chargers, and then there are loads of places that offer destination charging. The navigation system built into the car knows where all the Tesla chargers are and can show you which ones are within range. I have a 240V 30A receptacle for my welder in my garage so I just charged it at home while I had it but my dad lived in a condominium and relied entirely on public chargers. It was really no problem at all.
Backing up to the point, how many hydrogen filling stations are there in Sydney? AFAIK the nearest one to me is about 1500 miles away in California.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
One of my friends charges his in his driveway, he just sets the cable off to the side in his driveway or rolls it up and sets the coil in front of the garage door when he leaves. Pulls into the driveway and plugs it in, it takes 10 seconds, total non issue. As somebody who drives a gasoline powered car I cannot imagine someone preferring to do what I do and drive out of my way to a gas station, usually at the most inopportune time, messing with a hose and stinky liquid, filling up and then going on to where I'm going if they had the option of plugging in the car each night like we all do with our phones. I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.
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I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.
Yep, same here, never heard anyone say they regret changing to an EV.
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Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.
One of my friends charges his in his driveway, he just sets the cable off to the side in his driveway or rolls it up and sets the coil in front of the garage door when he leaves. Pulls into the driveway and plugs it in, it takes 10 seconds, total non issue. As somebody who drives a gasoline powered car I cannot imagine someone preferring to do what I do and drive out of my way to a gas station, usually at the most inopportune time, messing with a hose and stinky liquid, filling up and then going on to where I'm going if they had the option of plugging in the car each night like we all do with our phones. I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.
If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.
I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?
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Yep, same here, never heard anyone say they regret changing to an EV.
If I had to move to place where I did not have a garage at home for charging, then I would sure miss my old car.
And if I did not have a garage for charging, then I would not have bought an electric vehicle to start with.
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If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.
I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?
I do love the sound of an engine, especially a big V8. If I absolutely had to get by without gasoline I could run one on propane, CNG or even ethanol though with minimal changes. When it comes to a daily driver though I would seriously consider dropping in an electric drivetrain into my car if it were reasonably possible to do so without major modifications. In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either. My wagon drives like a sporty car but I can fold down the back seat and it has the capacity of a van or SUV. The slightly less huge crossovers won't cut it because they all slope down in the back when severely compromises the cargo space. On multiple occasions I've hauled a fullsized arcade game cabinet in my car with room to spare.
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If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.
I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?
I do love the sound of an engine, especially a big V8. If I absolutely had to get by without gasoline I could run one on propane, CNG or even ethanol though with minimal changes. When it comes to a daily driver though I would seriously consider dropping in an electric drivetrain into my car if it were reasonably possible to do so without major modifications. In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either. My wagon drives like a sporty car but I can fold down the back seat and it has the capacity of a van or SUV. The slightly less huge crossovers won't cut it because they all slope down in the back when severely compromises the cargo space. On multiple occasions I've hauled a fullsized arcade game cabinet in my car with room to spare.
The station wagon format lacks height, though? - but it does solve most transportation problems. I have an '08 Escape Hybrid that I use for those types of jobs. With seats folded, it has decent cargo space, without really being "too big" (and it is old enough not to be sloped at the back!).
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The station wagon format lacks height, though? - but it does solve most transportation problems. I have an '08 Escape Hybrid that I use for those types of jobs. With seats folded, it has decent cargo space, without really being "too big" (and it is old enough not to be sloped at the back!).
It lacks height compared to a van but not compared to the crossover SUVs that have replaced the wagon form factor. Those all have a sloped back that substantially compromises cargo space, especially when moving large bulky items like furniture and big boxes, I have moved a sofa in the back of my car and it fit completely with the tailgate closed. Most of those crossovers I don't even know where all the space goes, they're great big tall things on the outside yet the interior space isn't particularly tall nor do they have significantly more ground clearance than my car, they're just styled to look big and tall. I also have a clamp on roof rack that I've used to move all sorts of stuff including loads of lumber and 10 foot pieces of pipe. The car is low enough that I can load stuff on and off the rack without needing to get out a ladder or stand on the doorjams.
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In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either.
Station wagons and light trucks effectively became illegal:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/)
I got to watch this creeping progression first hand back in 2004. I have a 2002 GMC Sonoma "light" pickup, although it isn't really light compared to older small pickups. My neighbor had the exact same pickup but replaced it a couple years after the Sonoma was discontinued and the replacement was practically the same, except noticeably heavier to meet CAFE requirements.
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Station wagons and light trucks effectively became illegal:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/ (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/)
I got to watch this creeping progression first hand back in 2004. I have a 2002 GMC Sonoma "light" pickup, although it isn't really light compared to older small pickups. My neighbor had the exact same pickup but replaced it a couple years after the Sonoma was discontinued and the replacement was practically the same, except noticeably heavier to meet CAFE requirements.
Typical government, well meaning but poorly thought through regulations bringing unintended consequences that outweigh the good they were meant to accomplish. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The automotive industry is being crushed under the suffocating weight of regulations. There used to be so much variety and so many innovative designs, now everything is so boring, almost all modern cars are virtually the same, it's the reason I think that grills, emblems and wheels have become stupidly huge, there is nothing else to differentiate one brand from another. If I'm ever forced to replace my 30 year old station wagon and can't find another one I might be forced to get a great big SUV that gets similar or worse fuel economy in order to get the same utility.
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Typical government, well meaning but poorly thought through regulations bringing unintended consequences that outweigh the good they were meant to accomplish.
You are being generous; I think it is deliberate and very well thought out if only for protectionism. The good the CAFE rules are meant to accomplish is rent seeking at the expense of economics.
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Typical government, well meaning but poorly thought through regulations bringing unintended consequences that outweigh the good they were meant to accomplish.
You are being generous; I think it is deliberate and very well thought out if only for protectionism. The good the CAFE rules are meant to accomplish is rent seeking at the expense of economics.
Yeah, can't have $2,000 cars imported from other parts of the world when we the US average price for a new car is $38,723 (as of September 2020)... So let's introduce a whole bunch of hoops that they have to jump through to justify it!
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Yeah, can't have $2,000 cars imported from other parts of the world when we the US average price for a new car is $38,723 (as of September 2020)... So let's introduce a whole bunch of hoops that they have to jump through to justify it!
You can't import those cars because people who claim to know what's best for you will insist that they are unsafe and they don't want you to get hurt. In reality I think some people just have an innate need to be in control, some people just love rules and regulations, just find out who is in charge of the HOA at any condo or fancy housing development and you'll find exactly that sort of person.
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Yeah, can't have $2,000 cars imported from other parts of the world when we the US average price for a new car is $38,723 (as of September 2020)... So let's introduce a whole bunch of hoops that they have to jump through to justify it!
You can't import those cars because people who claim to know what's best for you will insist that they are unsafe and they don't want you to get hurt. In reality I think some people just have an innate need to be in control, some people just love rules and regulations, just find out who is in charge of the HOA at any condo or fancy housing development and you'll find exactly that sort of person.
If you've never seen the way cheap cars from 'developing countries' fold up in collisions, especially the sort your lot is obsessed with at 4-way junctions, you might want to go do some research.
That said, your cars are absurdly expensive and inefficient.
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By that logic, might as well also ban motorcycles which are even less safe.
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Yeah, can't have $2,000 cars imported from other parts of the world when we the US average price for a new car is $38,723 (as of September 2020)... So let's introduce a whole bunch of hoops that they have to jump through to justify it!
You can't import those cars because people who claim to know what's best for you will insist that they are unsafe and they don't want you to get hurt. In reality I think some people just have an innate need to be in control, some people just love rules and regulations, just find out who is in charge of the HOA at any condo or fancy housing development and you'll find exactly that sort of person.
If you've never seen the way cheap cars from 'developing countries' fold up in collisions, especially the sort your lot is obsessed with at 4-way junctions, you might want to go do some research.
That said, your cars are absurdly expensive and inefficient.
I visited the UK recently and rented a car, the fuel prices were CRAZY high (I think I paid $75 to fill up an average sized car) so you would have to be brave to drive a big car (many still did!).
American cars have shrunk over the last few decades. It is hard to find what our ancestors would have called a "full sized" car nowadays... Contrary to popular opinion, most people in urban America do not seem to choose big pick-ups or the biggest SUVs. The most popular cars seem to be compact cross-over SUV sized or smaller... Go out in the countryside, and the picture changes, obviously. (It does in the UK too, it seems!)
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By that logic, might as well also ban motorcycles which are even less safe.
That's my observation too. As long as motorcycles are available and accepted, then any safety argument is invalid. If I choose to drive a deathtrap that is my choice, you are free to choose not to ride in it with me. If safety is a person's primary concern then there are plenty of cars on the market that cater to that desire, some people have different priorities and they should be able to make that choice and not have it made for them by people who believe they know better what's good for them than they do. If I can buy a motorcycle brand new, why can't I buy a lightweight compact car without all the safety bloat brand new? There are even some 3-wheeled cars to exploit that loophole, legally they are motorcycles, adding a 4th wheel would make them safer but then they would classify as cars and couldn't be sold.
That said, several years ago I was in a serious accident in the 1987 Volvo 740 I was driving at the time. I got creamed by a double trailer fuel tanker truck that slammed into the car behind me at 60 mph while I was stopped in traffic on the freeway. The Volvo was totaled but I walked away without so much as a scratch or bruise. In its day the Volvo was legendary for its safety and in my very real world experience it lived up to that reputation fully, the crumple zones and safety cage performed exactly as designed. I bought another one as soon as I could locate it, there may be safer cars on the road today but I don't care, this one is safe enough for me and I love everything about it.
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By that logic, might as well also ban motorcycles which are even less safe.
That's my observation too. As long as motorcycles are available and accepted, then any safety argument is invalid. If I choose to drive a deathtrap that is my choice, you are free to choose not to ride in it with me. If safety is a person's primary concern then there are plenty of cars on the market that cater to that desire, some people have different priorities and they should be able to make that choice and not have it made for them by people who believe they know better what's good for them than they do. If I can buy a motorcycle brand new, why can't I buy a lightweight compact car without all the safety bloat brand new? There are even some 3-wheeled cars to exploit that loophole, legally they are motorcycles, adding a 4th wheel would make them safer but then they would classify as cars and couldn't be sold.
And you genuinely believe the average company, let alone car manufacturer, would bother to make vehicles to high standards of safety if they could make a bigger profit selling only flimsy trash?
I have a 4TB USB stick to sell you. For $15.
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usually at the most inopportune time, messing with a hose and stinky liquid, filling up and then going on to where I'm going...
You sound like a night-time infommercial for useless gadgets with people acting like just got a frontal lobotomy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXE9Hrg8nSE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXE9Hrg8nSE)
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"I worked with a technology company in southeast Michigan about 10 years ago, constructing lithium-ion test cells for the major automotive companies. The company provided and sold battery technology to numerous automotive companies. One thing I learned is the you can not extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire. But technology might have changed over the last ten years or so. I had the local fire chief into the plant to educate them on this fact. You can only let it burn itself out. With the battery test cells, we controlled the fire and exited the heat, smoke and flame through the roof with fire/heat proof fans and fire rated construction. I was quoted, at this point in time, that one cell out of about 16,000 would or could be prone to failure and fire. Depending on the number used in vehicles, models varied, but could fail. Most engineers I got to know were much more positive about fuel cell technology and considered batteries just temporary until fuel cells were better developed. "
-Stephen Hall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWAO3vUn7nw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWAO3vUn7nw)
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You sound like a night-time infommercial for useless gadgets with people acting like just got a frontal lobotomy.
If that's a joke I don't get it, you'll have to explain. I hate the smell of gasoline, when I pull into a gas station I can smell the stink before I even get out of my car. More often than not my hands smell like the stuff when I leave. I love my car but I'd love to not have to deal with gas.
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No thanks!
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I hate the smell of gasoline, when I pull into a gas station I can smell the stink before I even get out of my car. More often than not my hands smell like the stuff when I leave. I love my car but I'd love to not have to deal with gas.
I know! Can you believe people actually POUR it out of containers into lawnmowers and stuff. So icky!
Sometimes when I change my BBQ tank some of the propane gets out and I can SMELL IT! I thought I was gonna DIE.
:-DD
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I hate the smell of gasoline, when I pull into a gas station I can smell the stink before I even get out of my car. More often than not my hands smell like the stuff when I leave. I love my car but I'd love to not have to deal with gas.
I know! Can you believe people actually POUR it out of containers into lawnmowers and stuff. So icky!
Sometimes when I change my BBQ tank some of the propane gets out and I can SMELL IT! I thought I was gonna DIE.
:-DD
Haven't done that in years, I have an electric lawnmower. I tolerate gasoline because there is no better alternative for my little boat or my generator but I hate the stuff. Propane doesn't bother me, I don't like the smell but it doesn't give me a headache and it dissipates quickly.
Are you done being a dick yet? Are you satisfied that you have demonstrated your vast superiority in that the smell doesn't bother you? What an idiot.
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No thanks!
I'd post an article about a house burning down due to a gasoline fire in the garage but it happens so often that it doesn't even make the news. If you're worried about charging a car burning down your house but you aren't worried about flammable liquids in your home starting a fire then you utterly fail at calculating risk. Cars catch fire all the time, houses catch fire all the time. An EV causing a house fire is such a rare event that it makes the news. What is your point?
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Should see the number of candles which burn houses down. The things are terrifying, cold-blooded murderers.
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I hate the smell of gasoline, when I pull into a gas station I can smell the stink before I even get out of my car. More often than not my hands smell like the stuff when I leave.
Use a disposable glove. Over here almost every gas station offers those for free right at the pump. Beats dealing with a cable drenched in dog sh!t and cat wee.
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I hate the smell of gasoline, when I pull into a gas station I can smell the stink before I even get out of my car. More often than not my hands smell like the stuff when I leave.
Use a disposable glove. Over here almost every gas station offers those for free right at the pump. Beats dealing with a cable drenched in dog sh!t and cat wee.
More trouble than it's worth, I've never seen gloves provided at a station here and would have to carry my own. I just deal with it like I deal with going to the dentist or doing the dishes, it's a chore I don't like doing but has to get done and like I said before, I like my car and don't want to replace it. It's only if I were already planning to buy a modern car anyway that I'd go electric but for how little I drive and how much I hate the styling of modern carts I don't see that happening. I don't have a dog and my cats are indoor only, I use hoses and cords outside all the time and don't remember the last time I had to deal with bodily fluids. Complete non issue.
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Perhaps a solution to not being able to charge at the parking spot is to make the battery removable and give it its own set of wheels and motor? It could be of similar size to a wheelchair so that it can make use of paths designed for wheelchairs. Probably have to split the pack into multiple modules for particularly long range.
And you genuinely believe the average company, let alone car manufacturer, would bother to make vehicles to high standards of safety if they could make a bigger profit selling only flimsy trash?
Rather than ban them, just require them to show the poor crash test scores. I wonder if insurance companies charge motorcycle riders a lot more for personal injury coverage as compared to car drivers. That could also happen with unsafe cars making them not so economical in the long run.
I'd post an article about a house burning down due to a gasoline fire in the garage but it happens so often that it doesn't even make the news. If you're worried about charging a car burning down your house but you aren't worried about flammable liquids in your home starting a fire then you utterly fail at calculating risk. Cars catch fire all the time, houses catch fire all the time. An EV causing a house fire is such a rare event that it makes the news. What is your point?
I think the solution is to install fire sprinklers in the garage, cheap insurance even for gasoline cars. Anyone remember when Ford had a problem with cars randomly catching on fire when parked because of bad wiring?
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Rather than ban them, just require them to show the poor crash test scores. I wonder if insurance companies charge motorcycle riders a lot more for personal injury coverage as compared to car drivers. That could also happen with unsafe cars making them not so economical in the long run.
They've had crash testing and crash safety scores for decades, both the government and the insurance companies and the results are publicized, widely available and manufactures that score well brag about their ratings. Volvo built their entire reputation on building safe cars and they were very successful at it. They were decades ahead in the 1960s, already offering 3 point seatbelts front and rear, crumple zones, steel safety cage, side impact protection, padded interior parts, all many years before anyone was required to provide these things. They have always been quite expensive cars and yet they were very popular, my area was crawling with them in the 70s-90s before they tried to become a luxury brand and handed nearly their whole market to Subaru. Not everybody is as stupid and helpless as a few people here seem to think they are, not all of us need to be treated like a small child and have these choices made for us by the nanny state. The free market works, government regulations largely make things worse, not better. They take away choice and stifle innovation. Maybe some people would prefer to live in a world where the government controls every aspect of their lives and makes all of the important decisions for them but I do not, to me that is the description of a dystopian hell. I HATE regulation, I HATE rules, I HATE being told what to do, and I will aggressively push back against anybody who tries to control me.
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Perhaps a solution to not being able to charge at the parking spot is to make the battery removable and give it its own set of wheels and motor? It could be of similar size to a wheelchair so that it can make use of paths designed for wheelchairs. Probably have to split the pack into multiple modules for particularly long range.
And you genuinely believe the average company, let alone car manufacturer, would bother to make vehicles to high standards of safety if they could make a bigger profit selling only flimsy trash?
Rather than ban them, just require them to show the poor crash test scores. I wonder if insurance companies charge motorcycle riders a lot more for personal injury coverage as compared to car drivers. That could also happen with unsafe cars making them not so economical in the long run.
That doesn't work because vehicle safety is not only about protecting the people inside but also protecting pedestrians and cyclists. There is no way around that other than enforcing it by regulations. People won't buy cars which are better at protecting pedestrians because people are too short sighted to recognize that it actually is an improvement.
The free market works, government regulations largely make things worse, not better. They take away choice and stifle innovation. Maybe some people would prefer to live in a world where the government controls every aspect of their lives and makes all of the important decisions for them but I do not, to me that is the description of a dystopian hell. I HATE regulation, I HATE rules, I HATE being told what to do, and I will aggressively push back against anybody who tries to control me.
Well, the food you eat and products you use are safe because of regulations. Without regulations you'd die at an age where your life span is most beneficial to the big corporations. Do you really want to live in a world where every aspect of your life is controlled by companies that want to suck every hard earned penny from you? That is your beloved 'free market'. I wouldn't want that because that is worse than your dystopian hell!
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Well, the food you eat and products you use are safe because of regulations. Without regulations you'd die at an age where your life span is most beneficial to the big corporations. Do you really want to live in a world where every aspect of your life is controlled by companies that want to suck every hard earned penny from you? That is your beloved 'free market'. I wouldn't want that because that is worse than your dystopian hell!
You are presenting a false dilemma between government control and corporate control.
Through regulatory capture, those big corporations determine the regulations anyway, except now they are enforced through the monopoly power of government violence. How was that an improvement over the situation you describe?
A few posts ago I pointed out how exactly what you describe made vehicles less fuel efficient (and more expensive) in the US. Was that the desired outcome to protect people from corporations?
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Well, the food you eat and products you use are safe because of regulations. Without regulations you'd die at an age where your life span is most beneficial to the big corporations. Do you really want to live in a world where every aspect of your life is controlled by companies that want to suck every hard earned penny from you? That is your beloved 'free market'. I wouldn't want that because that is worse than your dystopian hell!
I don't actually want NO regulations, but there is a balance, and we are far past that balance point in my opinion. The fact that regulations make our food safe to eat doesn't mean that more regulations are better. The products we use being "safe" that depends, all too often I have found safety features like interlocks and guards that get in the way to be annoying, I typically remove/defeat that stuff of course if it gets in my way, which at least I'm able to do. If you want a safety feature that makes a product harder to use or less effective then buy one that offers that feature, don't require them all to come with it. My life is not controlled by the corporations, the corporations are controlled by me, and by every other consumer. I am not obligated to give them my money, they must earn it by offering a product that I'm willing to purchase, and I do that less and less all the time. These days I mostly seek out older stuff and buy used or build it myself. What happened to personal responsibility? People used to accept that certain things were dangerous and exercised caution when using them, now there is this bizarre attitude where people somehow expect someone or something else to protect them from every possible source of harm. If they do something stupid and hurt themselves it's someone else's fault. Somebody should have told them that fire is hot, that power tools can cause bodily harm, that a lightweight sports car may not offer much protection in a crash, that some things should be put away where children can't access them. That is frankly very strange to me, I really don't understand at all why anyone would expect someone or something else to protect them from any possible source of harm how how a person could possibly believe that taking away choices for their own good is a positive thing. I can choose for myself, why can't you or anyone else?
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Well, the food you eat and products you use are safe because of regulations. Without regulations you'd die at an age where your life span is most beneficial to the big corporations. Do you really want to live in a world where every aspect of your life is controlled by companies that want to suck every hard earned penny from you? That is your beloved 'free market'. I wouldn't want that because that is worse than your dystopian hell!
You are presenting a false dilemma between government control and corporate control.
Through regulatory capture, those big corporations determine the regulations anyway, except now they are enforced through the monopoly power of government violence. How was that an improvement over the situation you describe?
Well, some people live in countries where politicians are elected by the people and take a stance against large companies gaining too much control.
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Well, some people live in countries where politicians are elected by the people and take a stance against large companies gaining too much control.
Our politicians are elected by the people; they are just selected ahead of time for us.
How many politicians do you need to bribe to control the government? Both of them.
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That doesn't work because vehicle safety is not only about protecting the people inside but also protecting pedestrians and cyclists. There is no way around that other than enforcing it by regulations. People won't buy cars which are better at protecting pedestrians because people are too short sighted to recognize that it actually is an improvement.
They don't recognize it as an improvement because it is not an improvement. Frankly I don't give a damn about protecting pedestrians and cyclists in terms of car design. The way to protect them is to make cars that have good visibility, an area where the vast majority of modern cars fail miserably, and to avoid distracting gadgets, another area where modern cars fail miserably, and generally smaller and lighter cars, yet another area where modern cars fail miserably. Beyond that it is the responsibility of the driver to watch where they are going and the responsibility of the pedestrians and cyclists to be aware of their surroundings and not step out into traffic. I'm not going to drive a blob mobile just to avoid injuring the pedestrian I shouldn't hit in the first place and as with the occupant safety argument, this one is invalid at least in the USA where a growing majority of cars are actually gigantic trucks. Pedestrian safety is yet another useless automotive regulation I would eliminate given the chance.
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Well at least you've got good plans for reducing overpopulation. Shame about all the dying.
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That doesn't work because vehicle safety is not only about protecting the people inside but also protecting pedestrians and cyclists. There is no way around that other than enforcing it by regulations. People won't buy cars which are better at protecting pedestrians because people are too short sighted to recognize that it actually is an improvement.
They don't recognize it as an improvement because it is not an improvement. Frankly I don't give a damn about protecting pedestrians and cyclists in terms of car design. The way to protect them is to make cars that have good visibility, an area where the vast majority of modern cars fail miserably, and to avoid distracting gadgets, another area where modern cars fail miserably, and generally smaller and lighter cars, yet another area where modern cars fail miserably. Beyond that it is the responsibility of the driver to watch where they are going and the responsibility of the pedestrians and cyclists to be aware of their surroundings and not step out into traffic. I'm not going to drive a blob mobile just to avoid injuring the pedestrian I shouldn't hit in the first place and as with the occupant safety argument, this one is invalid at least in the USA where a growing majority of cars are actually gigantic trucks. Pedestrian safety is yet another useless automotive regulation I would eliminate given the chance.
Well... recently I nearly got run over by a car on a crossing where I should go first. I'm pretty sure the car's anti-collision system intervened instead of the driver because the driver increased the speed after slowing down at first :o Needless to say I'm pretty happy such systems are almost standard on new cars (and mandatory from 2022).
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Well I don't have one on my car and I'm not likely to ever own a car that does. Maybe people should try paying attention while they drive. I would be in favor of making distracted driving a criminal offense, or at least make the fine hurt. $5k for a first offense seems reasonable, make it a felony if an accident results, start throwing people in jail. Maybe people would start taking safety seriously and put down the damn phone. Automated technology to prevent collisions is not the solution, it is a crutch that enables people to engage in risky behavior. There is already far too much of this driver assist technology and driving isn't getting any safer, it's a proven fact that as soon as you take away the need to focus on something, the mind will find something else to focus on. When I was still working in the office I took the bus there and from my vantage point on the bus I would see people EVERY DAY barreling down the highway looking down at a smartphone on their lap, they think nobody can see them doing it. I have also nearly been run down in a crosswalk while someone was looking down at their phone. I don't want rounded cars so I hopefully bounce off and I don't want some gadget to hopefully see me and slam on the brakes (and the inevitable false triggers), I just want the person driving the car to watch where they're going! Driving is a privilege, there's no excuse for the carelessness so many people exhibit.
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Well I don't have one on my car and I'm not likely to ever own a car that does. Maybe people should try paying attention while they drive. I would be in favor of making distracted driving a criminal offense, or at least make the fine hurt. $5k for a first offense seems reasonable, make it a felony if an accident results, start throwing people in jail. Maybe people would start taking safety seriously and put down the damn phone. Automated technology to prevent collisions is not the solution, it is a crutch that enables people to engage in risky behavior. There is already far too much of this driver assist technology and driving isn't getting any safer, it's a proven fact that as soon as you take away the need to focus on something, the mind will find something else to focus on. When I was still working in the office I took the bus there and from my vantage point on the bus I would see people EVERY DAY barreling down the highway looking down at a smartphone on their lap, they think nobody can see them doing it. I have also nearly been run down in a crosswalk while someone was looking down at their phone. I don't want rounded cars so I hopefully bounce off and I don't want some gadget to hopefully see me and slam on the brakes (and the inevitable false triggers), I just want the person driving the car to watch where they're going! Driving is a privilege, there's no excuse for the carelessness so many people exhibit.
When I used to drive across Sydney to work every day I'd often think "how to hell did I even make it home?" as I had absolutely no recollection of the drive, my brain was just on autopilot for the daily grind.
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Toyota to spend USD 13.5B (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/35971839.html) to develop batteries and their battery supply system for EVs.
Like many other battery manufacturers they are hopeful about solid-state batteries but time will tell if all the myriad problems with the technology can be overcome.
Notably no mention of hydrogen, and passing mention that the reduction in CO2 from a hybrid is about a 1/3rd of a BEV.
Planned capacity of 180GWh, which seems too little to me for the worlds largest automaker, somewhat behind Volkswagen with 240GWh in Europe alone.
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When I used to drive across Sydney to work every day I'd often think "how to hell did I even make it home?" as I had absolutely no recollection of the drive, my brain was just on autopilot for the daily grind.
Your brain didn't store that information because it was an uneventful routine but you were probably still paying enough attention at the time that if a pedestrian or other obstacle appeared in front of you, you'd snap out of it and react. The problem I see is people who aren't focused at all, like when I'm riding in a car someone else is driving and I am completely disengaged with the driving part and not even looking in where we're going most of the time. Still, I recall that statistically most accidents occur close to home, I suspect because when people are in the most familiar routines they are the least engaged. Routine can lead to complacency which can lead to carelessness.
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Still, I recall that statistically most accidents occur close to home, I suspect because when people are in the most familiar routines they are the least engaged. Routine can lead to complacency which can lead to carelessness.
Close to home is also where people drive the most, so more accidents should be there.
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When I used to drive across Sydney to work every day I'd often think "how to hell did I even make it home?" as I had absolutely no recollection of the drive, my brain was just on autopilot for the daily grind.
Your brain didn't store that information because it was an uneventful routine but you were probably still paying enough attention at the time that if a pedestrian or other obstacle appeared in front of you, you'd snap out of it and react. The problem I see is people who aren't focused at all, like when I'm riding in a car someone else is driving and I am completely disengaged with the driving part and not even looking in where we're going most of the time. Still, I recall that statistically most accidents occur close to home, I suspect because when people are in the most familiar routines they are the least engaged. Routine can lead to complacency which can lead to carelessness.
;D
He's prolly the person I sit behind who goes 10 under the speed limit whilst in their own little world and wonder why there is not traffic in front of them.
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;D
He's prolly the person I sit behind who goes 10 under the speed limit whilst in their own little world and wonder why there is not traffic in front of them.
There is a 2 lane road that goes between the city I live in and the adjacent city, it has lots of curves and very few places to safely pass. Nearly EVERY time I drive home on that in the evening I get stuck behind somebody who is going 10mph under the speed limit, it drives me nuts. There aren't very many speed signs but I know the limit is 45, doesn't stop people from going 30-35 sometimes and I get stuck behind one of them all the time. The annoying part is at the edge of town the speed limit drops to 25 and most of those people seem to carry on going 30-35.
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;D
He's prolly the person I sit behind who goes 10 under the speed limit whilst in their own little world and wonder why there is not traffic in front of them.
There is a 2 lane road that goes between the city I live in and the adjacent city, it has lots of curves and very few places to safely pass. Nearly EVERY time I drive home on that in the evening I get stuck behind somebody who is going 10mph under the speed limit, it drives me nuts. There aren't very many speed signs but I know the limit is 45, doesn't stop people from going 30-35 sometimes and I get stuck behind one of them all the time. The annoying part is at the edge of town the speed limit drops to 25 and most of those people seem to carry on going 30-35.
There's a sneaky car manufacture rule here that requires cars to be unable to report a speed that is faster than the car actually is going. So the speedos are purposelessly dialled back to err on the side of caution. A car being driven at 60kmh might be actually doing closer to 50kmh. Added to that drivers who think that Jesus is sitting beside them in the car will do another 5km/hr less because they think they are speeding.
The people driving slow I can deal with. But I do take exception with our country's meteorology aficionados not taking authorities to task the fact that cars are sold with speedos that lie.
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Car speedos here typically read a percent or two low, but nothing like the 20-30% slower I often see on that road. The problem is it only takes one idiot that isn't paying attention and thinks the limit is 30 or whatever to clog up the whole thing. They always seem blissfully unaware of the 5-10 cars clumped up behind them.
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Swapable batteries are preferable to taking 10 seconds to plug in at home every night? :-DD
When the car is dead and I need to go somewhere right now, yes absolutely.
But why are you disingenuously presenting it as an either-or choice? I can swap my power tool batteries or charge them.
3 to 5 minutes to replace a battery with a fully charged one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1raxxvrHo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1raxxvrHo)
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3 to 5 minutes to replace a battery with a fully charged one.
Seems admirable, but the geographical, mechanical and safety logistics to make this possible are so whack it's not funny.
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ostensibly , it's already been working for two years
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ostensibly , it's already been working for two years
The devil is in the detail tho. Mechanically, it'd be interested to see how the battery compartment protects the battery from punctures without making the car prohibitorily heavy.
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3 to 5 minutes to replace a battery with a fully charged one.
Seems admirable, but the geographical, mechanical and safety logistics to make this possible are so whack it's not funny.
Yep, battery swap tech is doomed to failure.
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Yep, battery swap tech is doomed to failure.
What a battery swap might look like: (Actually a battery and battery cable swap)