Author Topic: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car  (Read 45558 times)

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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2020, 10:30:35 am »
Disclaimer: I have a conflict of interest in this application space but no connections to any of the products or companies I mention.

10l/100km is a bit pathetic, my previous car would happily do nearly twice that

Congratulations for your fantastically fuel frugal car. Apparently in your case, a soda bottle of fuel will get me home.


An average portable generator makes what ... Around 7,000W? Will that get you a decent charge in less time than it takes to have the car picked up and towed away?

7kW might be a bit high for an "average" genset and also much higher in cost than a jerry can. Battery based EV recharge rescue tends to be capable of higher power density but costs are definitely beyond both a genset or jerry can, more comparable to a towing service.

Regen tow recharging is a known and working practice used by more "enthusiast" level EV users but not recommended by manufacturers and definitely presents some dangers.

Sparkcharge claims 20kW so about 20km in 10min of charging (3.3kWh, 7km/kWh), linearly scaling from there of course. Higher speeds are feasible but not on the market yet it seems; this concept stage (?) solution offers 80kW so that'd be 80km in 10min. Generally EVs are "meant to be" towed on flat beds to avoid regen overloads so you can imagine the process of loading-securing takes 5 min then freeing-unloading takes another 5 min at least. In this flat bed towing demo video:

The operator seems fairly proficient and process of loading and unloading the vehicle for towing takes about 15min. If you just need to get home (or any destination where you can recharge) then you also save time spent needing to detour to a servo (gas station) to fully refuel. Pretty fair to say for most people living in most cities it will be time saving compared to towing, depending on how much of a detour getting to a servo is could also be equal or better than using a jerry can. There's also the possibility of tow companies just getting this equipment as added service and recharging vehicles while being towed.

Like other people have said, EVs really aren't at a disadvantage to ICEs car in any way for the majority of people. Fair, maybe for some they aren't. Maybe you've got some different circumstances living in an area with less capable infrastructure where petrol could be more reliable but its really stretching to say "Electric cars are still immature technology". EVs are at the level of being proven, reliable and practical right now. Your examples of unreliable grid, long distance travelling and emergency situations aren't applicable to most people you claim "are sounding like an EV owner grasping at straws to justify their purchase" if anything you're doing much more mental gymnastics to try find cases where ICE is better.

I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?
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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2020, 11:03:27 am »
Disclaimer: Again, potential conflicts of interest for me in this area.

People in this thread seem to be under estimating longevity of EV batteries. Crowd sourced data on battery degradation of Tesla vehicles shows much less than 20% degradation after 200 000 miles. Here's repair and maintenance costs for a 400 000 mile (640 000 km) Tesla which total up to ~$US29,000. Search "400000 mile tesla" if you want more sources and discussion.

For people speculating on the development of a million mile lifetime battery, this video has a well researched analysis:

To put it shortly: million mile batteries already exist but not that they'd actually use them.

Also on battery swapping and batteries as a service, not done in the west but already thing in China, not planned or speculated but already happening:
Bloomberg "China Embraces Battery-Swapping System for Electric Vehicles" 17 Jan. 2020

Quote from: Electrek
...BAIC BluePark New Energy Technology Co., which offers the service [battery swapping]. The state-owned BAIC Group, and its various entities, including BAIC JEV, is reportedly the second-biggest seller of EVs in China. Its numerous partnerships include Daimler and Magna.

BAIC BluePark said that it set up 187 battery-swap stations in 15 Chinese cities for 16,000 electric-powered taxis. And last year, it announced plans for 3,000 swap stations, enough to supply a half-million electric vehicles by the end of 2022.
Electrek
Source: Electrek "EV battery swapping is dead in US, but China wants to make it happen"  17 Jan. 2020 (mostly a copy of the Bloomberg)

The Driven "Nio slashes ticket price of EVs with “battery-as-a-service” offer" 24 Aug. 2020

Come on guys, it takes maybe 15 min to do some research and expand your available info instead for parroting uncited hearsay :palm:

Edit: I should have sent 15min reading all the comments in the thread more carefully and seeing people have posted similar sources already  :palm:
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 01:26:24 pm by sandalcandal »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2020, 11:12:45 am »
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #153 on: October 15, 2020, 11:18:04 am »
Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?

Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #154 on: October 15, 2020, 11:20:45 am »
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.

This is exactly why even defence is swapping to EVs.

“Electrification allows you to have access to readily available power to distribute not only for the vehicle but for all those different systems that I have.”-Lt. Gen. Eric Wesley
Defence News "US Army ventures down path to electrify the brigade"  17 March 2020

National DEFENCE "Army Driving Forward with Electric Vehicle Plans"  21 Feb 2019

Edit: To be fair, there are other reasons given for swapping to EVs like obsolesce of ICE but there is a major tactical advantage in having vehicles where energy can be generated on-site without having to rely on supply chains. The three major reasons provided in the first article in the order they are presented are: Obsolesce of ICE, Extended Independent Operations, and Improved Reliability. The first and last both apply to regular civilian use too.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 01:52:51 pm by sandalcandal »
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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #155 on: October 15, 2020, 11:26:58 am »
Honestly maybe for you in particular ICE may indeed be a better choice but for the majority of people, especially city dwellers like Dave, EV are the sensible choice. It kinda puzzles me where people are getting their views that EVs don't work? fake news?

Not only is it sensible, although we've only had it for a month, it's obvious that it can do everything we need using the supplied 240V charger. Already gone on a 4 day road trip with it with no problem or anxiety at all.
Want to use it for a huge road trip in the new year but will have to reluctantly take the ICE. Not because of range or charging issues, but because of cargo space.

You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.
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Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #156 on: October 15, 2020, 01:45:04 pm »
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #157 on: October 15, 2020, 01:45:08 pm »
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

On a major road trip if you really wanted to haul arse though, ICE would still win for convenience. But that's really it's only advantage. Topping up from zero to 500km in 3 minutes won't be touched by EV's for the foreseeable future.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #158 on: October 15, 2020, 01:47:06 pm »
I also don't get your complaints about reliance on the grid. If you really want to go off-grid and give yourself independence from public infrastructure wouldn't an EV which can be powered using electricity  generated privately using renewable sources be better than relying on massive supply chain required for fossil fuels?

Pop quiz: SHTF, society breaks down, you have an ICE car and an EV, you need to flee the city, both are full and can get you to a safe town, which one do you take?
I'd take the EV and my 240V EVSE.
Its no good just taking a car. You need an ICE car and a hand operated pump. As soon as the grid fails the gas stations can't function. Only those with a hand operated pump will get the fuel from the underground tanks at the gas stations to their cars, and keep progressing to the magical place of sanctuary there always seems to be in post apocalyptic stories. :)

The tanks would already be dry from the initial panic  ;D
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #159 on: October 15, 2020, 02:15:37 pm »
But without a charge point, your battery EV car is immobile right?

Generator.

Also, I've once seen a Youtube video where an empty Tesla was being towed by rope by small truck & they got back multiple KM of range after a few minutes due to through regenerative breaking.

Hah, that's actually pretty clever.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2020, 02:19:03 pm »
Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out.  More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!

The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard.   Everything was strictly cash only!  Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments.  When the sh!t really hits the fan,  the economy reverts to cash...

Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch.   Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners... 

« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 02:22:08 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2020, 04:21:27 pm »
Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less. This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 05:31:12 pm by nctnico »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2020, 03:32:26 am »
Pro Hint: the trip before your emergency situation is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It's easy: you are stranded somewhere you thought had fuel/charge and there isn't any. The next place is say 50km away with significant downhill components. You have 10km of range left in the EV and the ICE car, which one is likely to get there?
Note, this is not pie-in-the-sky, I got 10 times lower consumption figures on my trip back down the blue mountains.
This is a a potential real advantage of EV's in an emergency situation if the circumstances suit.
Those are a lot of IFs and a weird corner case to try and argue an EV is better. If the road is mostly down-hill it doesn't matter what kind of car you drive. Gravity will pull both cars down hill just as easely so the fuel consumption for an ICE will be extremely low as well (remember both cars accumulate kinetic energy while going down hill). When braking on the engine an ICE car won't use any fuel. And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not, it's just continually pissed away (at varying rates)
It's a very well known practical benefit of EV's.
I'll challenge anyone with their ICE car to come to the blue mountains and we'll have a race. Both cars drained to have 30km of range left. Drive from Katoomba to my lab in Baulkham Hills (an 85km journey). Betcha I make and your ICE car doesn't.
How do I know? I've taken the measurements, I've done the math, you'll be the one walking.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 03:38:35 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2020, 04:05:23 am »

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.

Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.

EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.

This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #164 on: October 16, 2020, 05:52:25 am »

The EV gains energy back into battery using regen, and a lot of it, an ICE car does not,
Wow. And where does that extra energy come from? Does the regenerative braking absorb energy from the aether? This is quite amusing coming from someone who constantly makes videos debunking free energy.

Oh FFS  :palm:
Follow the damn thread.
We are talking about going down a MOUNTAIN.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2020, 06:43:14 am »
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.

Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.
 
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Online james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2020, 06:52:51 am »
Thinking about the last storm we had here, it was not a problem to get petrol even though the power was out.  More than half of the petrol station owners around here have invested in enough generator power to run the gas station (including the obligatory convenience store associated with it these days), which is a good thing!

The only thing that didn't work, was accepting credit cards, or electronic payments e.g. Apple Pay and the like - those systems were all down hard.   Everything was strictly cash only!  Something to think about for those who live off their phone, including making payments.  When the sh!t really hits the fan,  the economy reverts to cash...

Obviously you could charge an EV from those generators too, at a pinch.   Maybe a business opportunity for petrol station owners...

I don't know if they learned from it or not, but about 12 years ago a big storm rolled through here, it came after months of heavier than usual rain and knocked down scores of large trees causing major damage. It took down several large transmission lines and knocked out multiple substations and my power was out for 10 days, something that was unheard of before that. Anyway not anticipating being without power for more than a couple days I had idled my car and used a large inverter to run my gas furnace, charge up batteries and other stuff on a number of occasions and eventually I was getting pretty low on gas. As it turned out, I had a good deal of trouble getting more as none of the gas stations in town had power, nor did most of the ones in neighboring towns, the few that did had huge lines and rapidly sold out. I didn't want to run out of gas driving around looking for more so I mostly stayed home for a few days until they had eventually patched up enough that the power was on in part of the town and some patches of surrounding areas.

I remember being surprised at the time that so few gas stations had any sort of backup generator. It wouldn't take much to power even just one pump, a few lights and the cash register but most had nothing at all. Generators were in short supply too since so many people ran out and bought them, there were even problems with people stealing them right out of driveways, some even while they were running.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2020, 03:00:19 pm »
You're not alone. Every person I've talked that actually drives an EV has said the same thing. Even here in Australia where we have such low infrastructure density.

It's only the people who have never even driven an EV that are the perpetual naysayers. Just watch, it doesn't take long to see it. They'll be making all sorts of arguments that this or that won't work or can't be done, the inconvenient fact that many people are already routinely doing those very things does not sway them. It's a religious belief that EVs are bad or won't work, and thus debating them with logic, reason and data is futile.

Living in a mountainous region I have often wished that engine braking down a long incline would put gasoline back in the tank of my ICE car but alas all it does is heat up the coolant. I do occasionally turn on the A/C if it's just warm or muggy enough for it to have some benefit but not enough to be worth burning the extra fuel on flat ground.

That situation (driving down a mountain) is one where a hybrid car doesn't work fantasticall well either -  its relatively small battery quickly fills up to the max, and then you are stuck with friction braking (or engine braking mode) all the way down 90% of the long hill.

This kind of thing is another reason to prefer a PHEV or EV over a "plain" hybrid.
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #168 on: October 16, 2020, 04:13:55 pm »
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece). You've driven through a mountain range before right? Any normal journey through mountainous regions especially like the Blue Mountains is lots and lots of winding roads up and down the side of the mountain until you get to the coast. Here, let's do some math on a hypothetical situation since everyone is so enthused by the idea of it:

ICE car and EV both start off with same amount of range R_ICE=R_EV= 20km.

Let's start them off down a 10km section of road that's all down hill. You can't just freewheel it down the whole way, you need to brake to stay at a sensible speed and take turns. The ICE car can just engine brake the whole way and thus not use any fuel, it's range remains the same. The EV uses regen braking instead. Let's be conservative, give the ICE car an easy game and say the EV recovers range equal to only 10% (literature reports 16% to 70%) so it gains 1km range.
R_ICE=20km
R_EV=21km

Since they're both "equally efficient" and we're directly comparing them directly based on a "range" energy consumption and capacity they both drive up an equal grade section for 10 km and both use up 10km of range.
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=11km

Then another equal grade down hill section for 20km this time
R_ICE=10km
R_EV=13km

up 5km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=8km

Down 20km again
R_ICE=5km
R_EV=10km

up 5km again
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=5km

The ICE makes it to the crest and starts rolling down to the next section but has no fuel. Onto the next section down for 10km
R_ICE=0km
R_EV=6km

Almost at the end and there's a 1km uphill section. The ICE car is out of fuel and can't go up but the EV still has range.
R_ICE=Dead 1km back
R_EV=5km

Then the last 10km of the trip down hill.
R_ICE=Dead 11km back
R_EV=Made it with 6km spare

Let's recap that journey. Both cars drove along the same undulating mountain road consistent of equally graded up and down section with a net downhill run. In total 10+10+20+5+20+5+10+1+10=91 km, with an uphill total of 10+5+5+1=21 km and a downhill total of 10+20+20+10+10=70 km. The EV car despite its terrible regen braking manged to recover some of the gravitation potential energy and made the 91km journey with 6km to spare despite starting with 20km of "range". The ICE car also manged to go quite far starting with the same 20km of "range" but got left behind 11km back when it was out of fuel and couldn't climb a short up hill section. In the end the EV made it with range to spare but the ICE car didn't. You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.

The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

The advantage of ICE cars is, despite their terrible efficiency, they have higher energy capacity because fossilised, refined plankton juice is much higher energy density than li ion batteries. The problem there is EVs as they are have more than enough range for everyone apart from people that need to cover a domestic flight level of distance while barely stopping e.g. truckies.

This really is a 'problem' which needs a properly defined set of conditions and math to solve. In the end math talks; everything else walks.
Well here's the talk. I guess you should walk ;)

And since the ICE car is likely to be lighter the resistance of the tyres will be less.

Hyundai Elantra:
-Kerb Weight: 1420 kg
-Length:4620 mm
-Width:1800 mm

Hyundai Ioniq Electric:
-Kerb Weight: 1575 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm

Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid:
-Kerb Weight: 1467 kg
-Length: 4470 mm
-Width: 1820 mm

So 1575/1420=1.109. So 11% more weight at most for a comparable car? That's gonna cause rolling resistance increase that out weighs any energy recovery?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 05:26:48 pm by sandalcandal »
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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #169 on: October 16, 2020, 04:16:27 pm »
Consider a buggy on free wheels. The engine is irrelevant. Gravitational potential energy is converted directly to kinetic energy, with some losses to friction.

EV car: (same initial total GPE)
- Some GPE converted directly to KE.
- Remainder of GPE converted to electrical energy in generator with losses
- electrical energy converted to chemical energy in battery with losses.
- chemical energy converted back to electrical energy with losses.
- motor converts electrical energy converted back to KE with losses.

This is elementary physics. You still think the EV is going to win?

How is this even relevant to proving an EV will lose? We're comparing to an EV to an ICE car driving down a mountain not some hypothetical suicidal billy cart freewheeling down a mountain. All you've said is an EV isn't going to convert GPE perfectly back into KE. So what? Of course its going to have a below unity energy return who said it wouldn't. An ICE car has an energy return of ZERO! :palm:

You're either trolling or in complete denial trying to change the question posed to something meaningless and irrelevant.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2020, 06:10:52 pm »
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.

The whole case reminds me of the story from someone who took an exam for flying hot air balloons:
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter a thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast and fly above the thunderstorm
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop ballast again
Examiner: what do you do if you encounter yet another thunderstorm
Candidate: drop more ballast again
Examiner: where do you get that ballast from?
Candidate: from the same place your thunderstorms are coming from
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:14:47 pm by nctnico »
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2020, 06:22:09 pm »
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
[...]  if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. [...]

As a long time hybrid owner, I can confirm that the mountain driving experience is not great in a hybrid, because of the limited battery size. 

  • Going down a long hill, the regen fills the battery after a very short time, then you are back on friction brakes or engine braking and no better off than an ICE. 
  • Going up hill, I have experienced situations where the battery gets down to the low water mark and the car reverts to ICE-only operation.  You are worse off than a regular ICE car, because the ICE in a hybrid is tuned for economy (Atkinson cycle) and depends on the electric system to "top up" the torque because a hybrid car's ICE has low torque and low power compared to a normal car. 
  • The third factor is battery temperature - in a hilly area with a loaded vehicle, the constant regen/discharge cycles heat up the battery, to the point where the computer has had enough and starts permitting only limited battery power due to rising temperatures.  Again, you are back to a low performing vehicle.

I am sure that all three alternatives - PHEV, EV, and plain ICE - would cope with both the up- and down hill scenario better than a hybrid!

Where a hybrid excels, in my view, is in dense traffic / urban driving, where the "swings" in the state of charge of the battery are not so big.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:28:06 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2020, 06:33:44 pm »
@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2020, 06:40:08 pm »
@Silversolder: If I may ask: which hybrid car do you have? I assume it is a Toyota because AFAIK they are the only ones using Atkinson cycle engines in their hybrids.

It is a Ford.   Ford's hybrid system is almost indistinguishable from the Toyota system, including using an Atkinson cycle ICE.  Meaning, it performs very well and has been reliable (210K miles on vehicle, the only hybrid related items that have broken were the fans that cool the battery, which lives in its own air-conditioned compartment.).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:42:53 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Offline sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2020, 06:42:50 pm »
Seriously, its not like any real life net down hill journey is going to be a no brakes run straight down the mountain side. If that were the case then I could just jump in a billy cart and ride it down the mountain (you can't, you're not getting down the Blue Mountains in a billy cart, not in one piece).
It doesn't matter at all. Being nearly out of fuel / charge on the top of a mountain is such an edge case that it isn't relevant to begin with. And if you want regenerative braking you can buy a hybrid. Much better for the environment too all things considered. And since Dave appearantly has changed the distance and starting range let me choose the temperature at -25 deg C.

Did you actually read the whole post let alone the conclusion?

...
You can twist this anyway you want. Change the scales of length, change the regen efficiency, change the proportions uphill and downhill, even make the whole thing downhill, the result will be the same: the EV will go the furthest with the most range left over.

The point is: ICE cars have no regen, at all. EVs have regen. In any situation beyond just a hypothetical, unrealistic, race track run with no braking. The EV is coming out on top. There is no question or uncertainty about it. EVs have regen. ICE cars don't have regen. EVs are unequivocally more efficient.

The point stands that EVs are unequivocally more efficient and economical than ICE cars. Mountain driving is a situation in which the difference in efficiency is exacerbated to an extreme level due to regen braking. Two vehicles being near flat at the top of the mountain isn't a normal occurrence but illustrates the real difference between the two technologies. Surely you can understand the context?

Edit: If you want something to argue, ICE vs Electric in trucks would be something actually worth discussion but that's getting off topic from Dave's commuter EV and the general hare-brained nonsense against EVs in this thread so far.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:55:02 pm by sandalcandal »
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