Author Topic: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car  (Read 9503 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #200 on: October 18, 2020, 09:07:41 am »
EVs are a rapidly developing technology and there is some market weirdness to go with that unlike ICE cars which seem to have long since reached the asymptote of improvement. Like any non-stagnant technology, you're going to be better off in terms of what you get for you're money if you can wait longer for the technology to improve. This needs to be balanced against the opportunity costs of missing out on an EV and its benefits however. If you recently bought and/or have a functional working car then its hard to justify buying any new car, ICE or electric. If you're in need of a new vehicle though, I don't think choosing an ICE over electric is a good idea for most people with the benefits modern EVs bring to the table.
Dave is one person that's decided similarly and got himself a new EV.

Except that in my case I wasn't actually in need of a new car, my 2014 Corolla was just fine. But the business instant asset tax writeoff ends at the end of this year, so it was tax advantageous to do it now.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #201 on: October 18, 2020, 09:19:39 am »

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #202 on: October 18, 2020, 09:57:43 am »
Well... it could be other brands have active battery cooling, a larger battery pack, better electronics / software. The complaint SilverSolder has about his Ford hybrid is that the hybrid system shuts down at some point because it can't handle going up and down hill all the time. This doesn't mean that all hybrids have to suffer from the same problem. Ford being a bunch of cheap asses makes me think that the problem is likely brand specific rather than a generic problem with hybrids. But even if it is a hybrid specific problem I don't see it as a big issue. After all it is better to preserve the car rather than causing damage. For example: my previous diesel car had a power limiter to make sure the engine wasn't damaged in case the engine was still too cold to run at full power.

Ford did use an actively cooled battery in this model, it is air conditioned with a separate cooling circuit off the car's main a/c compressor...  I believe the battery capacity is in line with other manufacturers. When all is said and done, if the battery gets depleted on a hybrid, you are going to lose performance - it is what it is.
Thanks for the clarification!
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I like Ford for economical long term car ownership.
Not for all models but there are sweet spots in their line up indeed. The main reason I bought our Fords is due to low maintenance costs.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #203 on: October 18, 2020, 10:41:44 am »

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.

 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #204 on: October 18, 2020, 10:49:42 am »

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #205 on: October 18, 2020, 10:56:30 am »

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #206 on: October 18, 2020, 11:04:35 am »

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.

In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.

OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 11:10:10 am by nctnico »
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Online sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #207 on: October 18, 2020, 11:20:38 am »

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

The open inverter forum has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 11:27:49 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #208 on: October 18, 2020, 11:24:50 am »

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

The open inverter forum has people DIYing their own motor inverter circuits for EVs and hybrids including Tesla, Leaf and Prius. They also tinker with chargers, BMS and other critical components.

All fun and games until someone loses an eye.

 :scared:
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #209 on: October 18, 2020, 04:30:23 pm »

Little different to all the other electronics boxes that all other cars are full of these days.

I know. But that big battery with a lot of energy in it.

I seen too much of what mischief people can get up to while tinkering with old cars.

It might become illegal to mess with sealed batteries - perhaps breaking the seal makes them off-road use only, or something like that...  you know what regulators are like!
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #210 on: October 18, 2020, 04:47:40 pm »

One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.
But bear in mind that Evs have a lot fewer things to go wrong
Quote
What happens when an owner of an EV receives a ridiculous quote from a dealer to replace the battery?

Same as an ICE that needs work in excess of its value - break for spares.

As regards batteries that are too degraded for use in the car, they will often still have significant for home storage.

My problem is the not so free-flow of specifications on electronic parts. How many of these parts are proprietary little black boxes? Once the original parts dry up, we turn to non-genuine parts, which are almost always built from scratch. Physical parts like panels or hoses are easy.

How does one reconstruct, say, a fried charge controller if the technical information is not forthcoming or no longer available? I just wonder the ramifications when cheap, exotic replacement parts find their way in to these things.
Usually the electronics are built to last a very long time so I wouldn't worry about that too much. But you'd have to investigate how a particular car model does where it comes to common failures and the cost to fix them. There are companies who specialise in fixing car electronics for a reasonable price so it is not like you are completely dependant on the manufacturer for a replacement in case you have a defective electronic module.

In general costs of a car depend on whether you buy new or second hand. If you buy a new car, drive it for up to 5 years (or to about 100k km) and then buy a new, one then the costs per km will be dominated by depreciation and maintenance costs will be very small.

OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

Owning a used car economically depends on (1) stuff not breaking so often, and (2) when something does break, cheap spares have to be available (preferably OEM spares...  dealing with quality and fit issues with Brand-X replacement parts gets old real quick.)   EVs just haven't been around long enough, in sufficient numbers, for the spares market (including recycled parts) to have become widely developed for them yet.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:49:11 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #211 on: October 19, 2020, 05:07:27 am »
One thing that is consistent across all markets is that eventually the car will require replacement parts. What is not clear is if the EV car will be able to be repaired cost effectively.

I once had to pay $800 for a cooling system hose adapter.
Sounds  a bargain compare to a replacement speaker plastic grill which Toyota quoted me $1300.

 :o
 :scared:

I ended up buying an aftermarket pair of them for CAD$30 on Amazon, which turned out to be as good as the original ones that were damaged by the Sun over the years of parking the car outside.
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #212 on: October 19, 2020, 06:09:41 am »
At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.
 
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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #213 on: October 19, 2020, 06:13:12 am »
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #214 on: October 19, 2020, 03:43:30 pm »
At this point in the life cycle of EVs, it seems to me to make most sense to buy them new, covered by a long warranty.  Maybe even leasing makes sense, especially if there is a risk of depreciation.  Your annual mileage needs to be high enough for the fuel savings to materialise for  you.

I spent several years procrastinating over buying a used LEAF, grad I didn't get one. In the end I figured it was better to just get a new car with an 8 year battery warranty.
Murphy can bite me on the arse and I'm covered.

I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting.   -  If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top!  As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings...   hard to see the point of it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 03:45:48 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #215 on: October 19, 2020, 03:48:32 pm »
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
 

Online sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #216 on: October 19, 2020, 04:59:39 pm »
OTOH if you buy a used car which is about 5 years old and drive it into the ground then the costs will be dominated by maintenance. From my own cars (extremely common models so parts are cheap) I see that the cost for maintaining suspension and tyres is the largest part. The older a car gets the cheaper the parts become.

The problem here in Oz is that there is really only one choice for used EV's, and that's the LEAF. And the older models that are affordable have crap range and questionable battery longevity.
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.

Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #217 on: October 19, 2020, 06:26:03 pm »
I've been through the same prevarications about a used Leaf, they are so cheap it is really tempting.   -  If you can live with its range limitations, it can be a good bargain as a second car, but then again so can a used MX-5 or something like that, which does not have those limitations and does have a convertible top!  As a second car, it probably won't get many miles, so there are no substantial EV savings...   hard to see the point of it.

My dad bought a used Leaf about 5 years ago, he used it to commute to work until he retired. Sold it after he started  living on his sailboat and had nowhere convenient to charge it. If I were still driving to work I'd likely have bought it from him but even when I was going into the office I always rode the bus. I drive so little now that the savings are insignificant even if electricity were free, I think I have filled my car 3 times this YEAR and most of the fuel I've burned has been the ~200 mile round trips to our cabin. For someone who commutes daily to their job, has multiple cars in the household and a garage or driveway to park in at home (a situation many millions of people have) a used Leaf still seems like it could be a pretty good deal. For those with different circumstances it may not make sense.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #218 on: October 19, 2020, 06:52:56 pm »
I've read that in Australia Nissan want a ludicrous amount for a new battery, and can't offer a refurbished one. Is that right? It would make a used Leaf a very risky purchase.
Had it in an earlier post in the thread but here: https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/ Basically seems like some confusion about a reduced cost battery replacement program Nissan was doing. Actual cost should be like $10k but dealer messed up and quoted $33k
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?
 

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #219 on: October 19, 2020, 10:29:17 pm »
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

I'd bet borderline zero.
I suspect there will always be a niche demand for even a depleted range LEAF. There just aren't that many used EV's here, so they should eventually find buyers at a price.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #220 on: October 19, 2020, 11:58:37 pm »
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard.  It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.

EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces. 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #221 on: Yesterday at 12:50:18 am »
If the dealer could get the quote that badly wrong, it doesn't sound like Nissan Australia is really set up to support these cars. If that is AU$10k, its about US$7k. I don't know how fast used cars depreciate in Australia, but in the UK that's about the price of a 6 year old Leaf. So a battery replacement beyond 6 years old costs more than the car. I wonder how many Leafs have been scraped because of this?

But if you buy another 6 year old car there is a reasonable chance that it will have the same problem sooner or later at which point you're back where you started. It can be sensible to spend $10k putting a brand new battery into a car that is only worth $6k because at that point it has a brand new battery, the one major component that is likely to wear out or fail over time. I've never understood the mentality of not wanting to spend more repairing a car than the car is worth. With exception of certain collectible cars, you always spend more on any car than you can ever get out of it, it isn't an investment, you're paying money for transportation. If you spend $2k putting a replacement engine in a car that is worth zero and you drive it for several years you've come out ahead, even if you've technically invested a lot more than the value of the car into it. The only time this doesn't apply is if you already intend to replace the car soon, or if you get in an accident that totals it however in many cases insurance will account for money spent on major repairs as long as you can prove it.
 

Online sandalcandal

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #222 on: Yesterday at 01:40:52 am »
People are getting focused on battery degradation again but the Leaf is an example of a battery system done poorly. I posted it before in this thread but again, for a well done battery design degradation is minor and range is good.

EV's have always been beyond my budget so I am not up on them. Unless batteries improve dramatically I am backing Hydrogen as a storage technology. I think in a big country like Australia it will have wider appeal to be able to refuel quickly and not need to worry about the capital outlay of replacement batteries or the depreciation that introduces. 
Price of a hydrogen isn't much better. Toyota Mirai is $US58,550 for a range of 508km and others in a similar ball park compared to a Tesla Model 3 LR AWD for $48,190 and a range of 568km.

And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:58:43 am by sandalcandal »
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #223 on: Yesterday at 02:59:58 am »
I just checked on carsales.com.au and new Leafs are around $54k and 2012 models can be found around $17k-$18k. And they look pretty good in the photos. They look like they are generally low KM's and have probably not been driven hard.  It's still higher than a typical 8 year old hatch. I was shocked to see some ads claiming 120km range. I had no idea the range was so limited.

They won't be 120km because old LEAF's are notorious for battery pack degradation. It's rare to find a "12 bar" battery.
10 or 11 bars is common. 10 bars instead of 12 means only about 75% of the capacity remains.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car
« Reply #224 on: Yesterday at 04:30:07 am »
And if you thought EV charging stations were scarce then you'll probably never see much hydrogen support considering how much more expensive and hazardous hydrogen stations are to install.

Hydrogen cars will never gain traction for one simple reason. You can't charge them at home, which is the greatest benefit of EV's.
Ok, home hydrogen solution do exist, in theory, but it's just a dumb idea.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:41:13 am by EEVblog »
 


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