EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[mikeselectricstuff]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.

Well.. in the Netherlands an employer has to add the costs for the electricity and the charger to the taxable income of the employee. This means that the charging points need to be metered per employee (on an individual basis). It is likely that other countries have similar arrangements or at least rules for what amount can be given to employees without having tax implications. To avoid all this hassle it is easier to have a commercial party install EV chargers and deal with the administrative side of it.

That's nuts. Why would you even tell the tax department for starters?

It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.

"it's just a socket for a lawnmower/jetwash/whatever"

[BrianHG]

I have an odd question...

     If I were setting up a business with dedicated parking spots right in front of my office, would it be possible to setup charge outlets with limited power which can be turned on by rf-id key-cards, which will automatically switch off once the vehicle is disconnected for me, my partners and some of my employees?  We don't need high speed charging, I just want to replenish the trip to the office during their commute during a 8-9 hour work day.

First of all have a chat with your accountant to see if this is elligible for subsidies and/or is regarded as an employee benefit which can have an impact on income tax.

Why would you bother with such a messy delineation? It's just an increase on your business electricity bill which is already tax deductible.
But if there is some sort of subsidy maybe look into that, but I doubt it.

It is fairly simple.  Our company will be leasing from 1 company at least 10 cars who specializes in corporate lease packages.  We get favored service, favored price & the leaser has their own garage which handles everything from tire changes to body work and they supply a free car for the days one of our vehicles are in service.  We have group corporate insurance through the company for the car drivers.  We have a company gas card which works at all gas stations here in Canada & and major ones in the US, but that card only works for gas and emergency service/towing.  For my partners, we end up with saving compared to private leasing the cars on our own as well as every service I mentioned above becomes a company tax write off.  We offer to extend such services to our trusted employees whom we know we want to keep indefinitely with a take in their paycheck.  The monthly cut is less than what they could end up doing if they were to buy or lease the car themselves as they would need to pay for all listed services above including insurance.  On my side, it is a little additional work for my accountant at the end of each month, but I get even more of a tax write-off, my employee usually chooses a better car than they would be willing to pay for otherwise, and if they leave, they loose the car which since we only leased, it goes back to the leasing company.

[EEVblog]

It is not nuts; it is the law. Not telling the tax department is fraud. Simple as that.

No, it's nuts.
You can go down to the last minute detail, it would never end.

Used that work shower after the gym and didn't tell them? FRAUD!
Used that work phone to make a personal call? FRAUD!
Used that company computer to do anything personal, FRAUD!

Tax codes can be quite sensible and flexible actually, unless you ask (here it's called a private ruling), then they will likely to say "well, yeah, kinda" and then bog you down forever in paperwork for the most mundane thing.
Take the example above. You use the company shower for personal reasons a few times a week, that costs water and energy, and if you were silly enough to ask they might actually rule it to be a "fringe benefit" which then weighs the company (and possibly you) down in red tape forever for that one silly thing.
Yet if you ever got audited they would never ask "did anyone use the electricity for any personal use?", it's not even on their radar, and they wouldn't want to bog themselves down with investigating such a thing anyway, it's waste of their time. Yet if you were dumb enough to ask for a tax ruling on it, or decided for yourself "it's fraud if I don't", then well, knock yourself out with the compliance of that, it's all on you. Such a thing would be nothing but noise in a company balance sheet.

[nctnico]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.

An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.

As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.

[SilverSolder]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.

An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

Also take into account the social-economic aspect. Giving high paid employees stuff for free doesn't sit well with low wage personel. For those people receiving $27,5 per month extra (after taxes) is a big deal.

As I wrote before: in the Netherlands there are rules for having employees charging their EVs from the employer's outlets. That is the reality; the Dutch government doesn't care about your opinion. Keep in mind that the situation and thus the regulations around EVs in the Netherlands is mature and ahead of the rest of the world. What happens here is bound to happen somewhere else.

From the perspective of the Inland Revenue Services, if you have 10 million people receiving an untaxed benefit of $100, it adds up to real money! 

In most countries it seems they begin to "care" at the level of about $50 a year.

[Ed.Kloonk]

An EV uses a serious amount of energy. If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330.

That works out to less than a dollar a day, averaged out. The biscuits, milk and coffee in the office kitchen costs me nearly as much PP as that.

I'm gonna report them.

[thm_w]

Not the same as general degradation, and agree that warranty is the way to go, but interesting:

[EEVblog]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

If you have an employee charge an EV for 8 hours a day with 30km of range that is about 6kWh a day. Doing that for 44 weeks a year it adds up to 1320kWh. With a price of $25 cents per kWh you are talking about a benefit for that employee of $330. That is more than the value of a ball-point pen or an occasional shower and depending on the tax bracket the revenue service gets cheated out of receiving over $100. Multiply that by a couple of thousand people spread over many companies and the amount of missed taxes starts to add up quickly.

 
Make one personal phone call a day on your work mobile and it'll likely cost more 
And BTW, tax revenue doesn't magically just "add up" like that.

[Coordonnée_chromatique]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

[Monkeh]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

[Coordonnée_chromatique]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

[Monkeh]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way. It does indeed sometimes go wrong, but rarely and usually caught. You're also looking at sped-up footage and assuming they're completely, totally, and utterly unskilled and just ramming them in.. The trigger is not on/off.

[james_s]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.

[EEVblog]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

Free snacks, soda, sometimes even beer are pretty standard perks in tech companies here, at least they were back when we were still going into offices. Electricity to charge an EV is just another perk, seems like a pretty natural thing for them to offer. When I worked at Microsoft in the early 2000's there was a guy who had a Meyers NMG, one of the first highway capable EVs on the market. I remember seeing it parked out front of the building next to mine most days, with an extension cord running into the lobby.

At Altium we got free food and drinks (breakfast lunch and dinner from the cafeteria), gym membership, personal concierge service, mobile phone, car washing, and other stuff.
Get ONE muffin from the cafeteria and that would cost more than charging your EV for the whole day.

[Coordonnée_chromatique]

Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way

What are your references ?

[Monkeh]

Every single car you've ever been in has had fasteners installed this way

What are your references ?

Life experience outside an office.. In the real world people just don't take the time to anally position every fastener unless they know it's particularly vulnerable to damage. And again, you're making some bold assumptions from sped-up footage. Nothing out of the ordinary in every garage was happening in those shots. Not saying it's perfect, just that it's reality.

Oh, and any reputable seller would warranty the work done that way.

[james_s]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.

[Coordonnée_chromatique]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.

Sorry if i haven't been clear enough, i was talking about real life experience into a automotive service center on a long period as a mechanical technician in my young years.
Please, let the competent people doing their job.

[timelessbeing]

mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.

Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.

[maginnovision]

mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work.

Agree. In my experience, shops don't make any money on warranty work so they try to get it out the door as quickly as possible.

That's absolutely not true for BMW or Toyota or Mercedes. Warranty work pays a much as you get them to. Most techs don't bother learning how to get their money so look for customer pay jobs where you can charge more. The ideal is running time for a warranty job while working on a CP job. Warranty typically will pay more time than it takes to actually diagnose something even when you do what you say you did.

I once got flagged by corporate because I was making a bunch of money, legitimately, diagnosing and repairing a single emissions failure on many cars.

The real problem is bad techs doing poor work because they don't have the skill to work at the pace they try to. If you find a tech did a poor job don't go there again and let the service manager know. Nobody wants to work with someone doing a bad job that may come back later. It also hurts the reputation of the place which results in worse pay and hours.

[nctnico]

As the CEO of a big aircraft manufacturer once said: there is a difference between taking a ball-point pen and a typewriter back home.
An EV uses a serious amount of energy.

I'm willing to bet the office coffee hot water system uses more, and yes, so would that hot shower you used after the gym every day too.
Your aircon alone would dwarf any EV charger consumption.

You are barking up the wrong tree. In the NL the government has a very specific list with what can be given to employees and what not and up to which monetary limit. EV charging is not on that list so it cannot be given away for free.

[SilverSolder]

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

This is why people are so right to buy their electric car NEW with a WARRANTY, as you can see in the video at 4.50, the battery pack screws are mounted without any pre-centering with an electric screwdriver.
I've worked for the biggest automotive, aeronautic, railway and marine offices during 20 years as a mechanical procedure writer and this procedure is forbidden everywhere.

Meanwhile, everywhere bolts are actually installed, as opposed to written about, this is ordinary and doesn't usually cause an issue..

I've also worked in the automotive maintenance centers, the screws must be aligned by the hand (without any mechanical force) in the thread (especially if it is made of alumnium) before using any tightening mechanical tool.
A misalingned screw will destroy the thread, i've seen a lot of cars with missing parts and a few serious failures after this type of maintenance and there is no really useless part on a car.

I've never had any use for warranties. I've known lots of people, some members of my own family included who bought new cars and had stuff mangled by incompetent dealer technicians doing warranty work. Most of the time you don't notice it until a decade later when you have to take something apart for some reason. If you think that's bad, you should see the work that body shops do repairing a car after a fender bender, most are pretty good at making it look nice for a while but if you keep it for more than a few years it will become apparent that it has been repaired. Many of the fasteners in my cars are self tapping, of those that are not I've never found one that was cross threaded.

Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly.  It's just got to last "long enough".

[nctnico]

Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).

[sandalcandal]

Yep. If you want something fixed the right way then take it to a place where they fix it the right way (and be prepared to pay for it).

Assuming you can even get them. All the good tradies I know personally from back in school and outside business are booked out months in advance, only chance of getting timely help from them is on the personal connection. 

[Coordonnée_chromatique]

Few are willing/able to pay for top drawer workmanship, sadly.  It's just got to last "long enough".

I use to always make my best in order to and fix everything wrong on the car without any more time or money allowed by the commercial staff... and finally made a burnout (fall on the floor at work due a vagal discomfort linked to exhaustion)