EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[sandalcandal]

From the just held "Renault Eways" EV roadmap event, batteries keynote.


8:28 Target is for ~100 $/kWh pack in 2024 (the <20 $/kWh is relating to the BMS cost)
https://renaulteways.com/app/uploads/2021/06/Renault_eWAYS_C1_LOW.pdf

Lots of other juicy info too.
"We are working to be the first to cross the line between ICE and BEV [...] we are aiming to halve the battery cost again within the next 10 year and we target with double the energy density at the cell level" - Gilles le Borgne, EVP Engineering, Renault @1:03

Also looks like they are targeting "ASSB" (All Solid State Battery) technology.

[Bud]

Setting a target does not mean it will be achieved.

[sandalcandal]

Setting a target does not mean it will be achieved.

But it does show that Tesla is not alone in it's goals.

[David Hess]

Sounds like an opportunity for a creative electronics project -  how about generating the sound of a Maserati Bi-Turbo? 

Or the sound of the monster ants from Them!.

[timelessbeing]

There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery

From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.

We'll see how the VW ID.3 does ...

[Ed.Kloonk]

There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery

From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.

The hidden costs are the devil in the detail. The paradigm shift for mechanics who don't  understand the workings and the accredited, expensive few who do. Not talked about is the shoe-horning in of the refuse-to-operate circuitry when the system detects/decides all is not OK. To be fair tho, all new cars are suffering from this a bit.

You should get 5 good years out of an electric car. After that it becomes harder to pass muster. Look toward Japan for a glimpse on how 5 year old cars will soon be regarded. Yet, the car dealerships fool the buyers into thinking the car will be around for as long as their current one.

[SilverSolder]

There is basically just one thing making an EV expensive - the battery

From what I hear, it's all expensive. All moving parts wear out eventually, and I have no illusions that electric vehicle will be made with user serviceability in mind.

The hidden costs are the devil in the detail. The paradigm shift for mechanics who don't  understand the workings and the accredited, expensive few who do. Not talked about is the shoe-horning in of the refuse-to-operate circuitry when the system detects/decides all is not OK. To be fair tho, all new cars are suffering from this a bit.

You should get 5 good years out of an electric car. After that it becomes harder to pass muster. Look toward Japan for a glimpse on how 5 year old cars will soon be regarded. Yet, the car dealerships fool the buyers into thinking the car will be around for as long as their current one.

Don't most car buyers go with some kind of contract for a fixed period -  2, 3, 5 years?

I would guess that if electric cars have shorter lives than existing ICE cars, industry beancounters will feel they have made progress!

[EEVblog]

Don't most car buyers go with some kind of contract for a fixed period -  2, 3, 5 years?

Majority of people buy their cars outright, at least 80% here in Australia:
https://www.finder.com.au/car-loan-statistics

[james_s]

Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan. I refuse to borrow money to buy a depreciating asset but I've always preferred to buy older cars and fix them up anyway.

5 years seems awfully short, I think pretty much all EVs have an 8 year warranty on the battery. People may just have to change their attitudes some on what is a reasonable amount to spend fixing up an older car. I would be fine with spending $8k on a new battery for a car that is worth $5k because then it has a brand new battery so the main thing that depreciates is now brand new. I've never understood the mentality so many have of not wanting to spend more fixing a car than it's worth because you almost always spend more on a car than it's worth, they depreciate, as soon as you sign the paperwork on a new car it's worth less than you just paid for it, often significantly less. It's worth spending a few thousand repairing a car that isn't worth much if I get a few thousand worth of transportation out of it. I'm paying for transportation, not investing my money.

Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from  the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.

[EEVblog]

Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.

You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.

5 years seems awfully short, I think pretty much all EVs have an 8 year warranty on the battery.

Yes. My IONIQ has a 5 year new car warranty and 8 years on the battery. I'd be stunned if it doesn't last 10 years at least.

Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from  the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.

Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

[coppice]

Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.

You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.

That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.

[nctnico]

Most of the wear items in an EV are going to be the same as a conventional car. Brakes, suspension bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, end links, wheel bearings, wiper blades, gaskets, window regulators, trim bits, HVAC bits, light bulbs, etc so I expect most mechanics will have no problem fixing them. A lot of the maintenance items required by an ICE are simply not there, there's no oil to change, no belts to replace, no oil seals (aside from  the gearbox which is much simpler than a conventional transmission) other than battery degradation I'd expect them to be extremely dependable in most cases.

Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

Brakes cost next to nothing to replace. The majority of the maintenance cost of any car during the lifetime are suspension parts and tyres. For BEVs those costs are even higher because BEVs are heavier causing more wear on the suspension & tyres. Cost for belt & oil changes are peanuts in comparison.

Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.

You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.

That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.

A car doesn't need to cost thousands of dollars. Lots of choice on the used car market. Also saving up is way cheaper than taking out a loan for a new or used car. Over here leasing a car is becoming more and more popular but it is very expensive. Then again some people still see a car as some kind of status symbol and want to spend their hard earned cash on something that depreciates like crazy and sits still most of the time.

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

...if you live in a benign climate.   In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...   

This is especially true with hybrids and electrics...  because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.

A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.

[coppice]

[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

...if you live in a benign climate.   In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...   

This is especially true with hybrids and electrics...  because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.

A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.

You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.

[Monkeh]

Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back

I'm never going to be free of fucking shoe springs, am I? The beatings will continue..

[EEVblog]

Odd, almost everybody who buys a new car over here takes out a loan.

You'd have to be dumb to take out a car loan.

That's unreasonable. People need a car to work in any kind of decent job in much of the developed world, and not everyone has thousands of dollars sitting around in cash.

I'm talking about people that gets loans for new cars that cost 5-10 times what a reasonable old 2nd hand car would cost. Maybe double that again once you factor in interest over time. It's dumb.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I'm talking about people that gets loans for new cars that cost 5-10 times what a reasonable old 2nd hand car would cost. Maybe double that again once you factor in interest over time. It's dumb.

Young people can be seduced by both the car and the car sales person who can show that the buyer can indeed afford the car when presented with an attractive fortnightly/monthly payment. The financier focuses the buyer on repayment rather than grand total. It's all about getting sir into the car today. (Or madam as well, I suppose.)

Young people in Sydney are disproportionately buying cars under finance that they cannot possibly afford. It's a symptom of disposable income. Saving pennies burns a hole in their pocket, yet they want something to show for their labour.

I should also remind any Australian used car buyers to utilise the Revs Check service to find out if a car has money owing. Do not let the dealer talk you out of doing this.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Oh, and am I late to the partay by noticing the EEVblog # for the electric car is 1337?

 

[SilverSolder]

[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

...if you live in a benign climate.   In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...   

This is especially true with hybrids and electrics...  because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.

A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.

You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.

Most people are better off with drum-type rear brakes, but it just isn't sexy enough...

[nctnico]

[...]
Almost zero wear on brakes on EV's.

...if you live in a benign climate.   In the "rust belts" of the world, brake rotors typically rust away faster than they wear away...   

This is especially true with hybrids and electrics...  because the brake disks never get hot, they seem to develop really bad rust issues after just a few years, compared to a vehicle where the discs see actual significant use every day to help keep the surfaces clean.

A brake job is north of $1K for many cars nowadays.

You see similar problems with ICE cars that try to be too clever about biasing their braking towards the front discs. If you are a light footed driver the rear brakes in some cars are hardly ever applied, and rust up badly. Some electric cars are now using drum brakes at the back, as they are less susceptible to fouling up with rust, and you don't need such great brakes in an electric car.

Most people are better off with drum-type rear brakes, but it just isn't sexy enough...

AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car. Or put differently: the worst case amount of energy the brake system needs to cope with. Remember energy = mass * velocity ^2. Since common BEVs typically don't have high top speeds, they can use drum brakes at the rear. In my experience drum brakes at the rear are much cheaper to maintain.

BTW: the front wheels always get most of the braking action because the weight shifts towards the front when braking. This goes for any type of car and the difference is significant (ball park: 25% rear / 75% front).

[SilverSolder]

[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car. 
[...]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

[EEVblog]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/

[nctnico]

[...]
AFAIK drum brakes versus disk brakes at the rear depends on the weight and top speed of the car. 
[...]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

No, doesn't matter. You snipped the words 'worst case'. Unless a manufacturer really cut corners and the regulators aren't watching, you can't get enough energy in the car for the brakes to overheat. At least in the EU it is part of the vehicle testing/regulations before it is allowed to be sold in the EU. Ofcourse the driver can still do stupid things like going downhill with the brakes applied but even the biggest disk brakes aren't up to such abuse.

[coppice]

And, crucially, on how the car is being driven...  a hatch doing grocery store duties is probably OK with drum rears, whereas someone that likes driving hard will eventually need rear discs...  (and larger than standard discs up front, too).  It's down to how much energy can be safely dissipated by the brakes, as you allude to.

You have to drive an EV crazy hard to have it use the friction brakes. You have reports of Tesla's doing 400,000km on the one set of brakes for this reason.
https://insideevs.com/news/518481/tesla-models-400000km-brake-pads/

Doesn't it depend on the car? Some electric cars seem to be able to regenerate so much that they will roll slowly down the steepest hills without the friction brakes applied. Others seem to top out their regenertaion quite early, and the friction brakes are needed quite a lot in a very hilly area.

[EEVblog]

Tesla just slashed it's Model 3 price
https://www.caradvice.com.au/966571/tesla-model-3-prices-hit-new-low-in-australia-now-from-59900-plus-on-road-costs/