EEVblog #1337 - I Bought An Electric Car

[timelessbeing]

This is why Toyota i just a walking zombie company. Already dead.

That's news to me.

battery swap in 10 minutes:

[james_s]

What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.

Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.

[james_s]

Yes, EV's are at present really only a solution for those who can charge at home or work. If you can't do either of those then it's not very practical unless you want to spend 30-60 minutes at a charging station every week vs <3 minutes for an ICE car.

But they're still a lot more practical for those people than a hydrogen car. Even if I couldn't charge at home, at least I can still charge somewhere. If I want hydrogen I'd have to go to a welding supply shop and rent a tank of it, and then I'd have to find a way to get it into my car. Even in the worst case scenario I can get electricity from a multitude of sources, there are zero hydrogen filling stations for cars anywhere in my region. None. There are numerous EV chargers, and more all of the time. If you're going to install new infrastructure then EV charging stations are the obvious answer. A very distant alternative would be CNG, we already have natural gas piped to most homes and businesses around the country, all you need is a compressor to fill a CNG vehicle. It's pretty unlikely, but it makes a whole lot more sense than hydrogen. I really struggle to understand this mentality of "There is not sufficient infrastructure for EVs so let's all get hydrogen cars that have zero infrastructure!" 

Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it. It's difficult and dangerous to store in large quantities, difficult to transport safely, difficult to store in a vehicle, there is zero infrastructure, it's just a total non starter. I would wager a considerable sum that hydrogen powered cars never reach 10% of the number of EVs on the road in my lifetime and I think 10% would be a very generous number, in reality 0.1% is unlikely to happen. It was a pipe dream of the 90s and earlier, it looked interesting back when battery technology was hopelessly inadequate for a practical car, we're long past that now, EVs have won, the battle is over and has been for several years now.

[nctnico]

What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.

Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.

How cheaper than gasoline? That just isn't possible (and given the lack of numbers in your post you probably know that). Fast charging along the highway sets me back about 0.80 euro per kWh. That is 0.16 euro per km. A Toyota Prius hybrid costs me 0.08 euro per km in fuel. Ask yourself why they never include hybrids in comparing BEVs with ICE cars... Hydrogen would have costed about 0.12 euro per km.

And then there is charging time. We just did a 5000+ km trip using the car. Assuming a BEV with a range of 400km which is charged to 80% using a fast charger in 30 minutes, this would have taken an extra 8 hours of travel time. Time I rather spend doing nice things than hanging around at a dreary gas station.

[EEVblog]

What won't be going away any time soon is the impracticality of needing long charge times and high costs once you want to use a BEV on a long trip.

Dude, why do you keep parroting this nonsense? It is totally false. My dad had a Tesla and lived in a condo that did not allow him to charge at home. He managed just fine using Superchargers and destination charging. It takes 10 minutes to add something like 50 miles of range, he said he would plug in, go take a leak or grab a coffee and by the time he was done the car was ready to go. The cost was very reasonable, cheaper than gasoline. Not only is that impracticality going away soon, it is already gone. You are are literally predicting something will never happen that already has happened. You must exist in a different reality than the rest of us.

4 super chargers in all of Sydney + a couple of other third party 250kW capable DC fast chargers.
Might be ok if you live near one, otherwise it would be a PITA.

[EEVblog]

And then there is charging time. We just did a 5000+ km trip using the car. Assuming a BEV with a range of 400km which is charged to 80% using a fast charger in 30 minutes, this would have taken an extra 8 hours of travel time. Time I rather spend doing nice things than hanging around at a dreary gas station.

Yes. 3 minutes filling up an ICE car to give you 500km range is WAY better than waiting around for an hour. EV's won't approach this any time soon.
Long range touring is simply one of the downsides of an EV. If you are lucky you can carefully plan it and do it, but it's vastly more inconvenient than an an ICE car.

[EEVblog]

Yes, EV's are at present really only a solution for those who can charge at home or work. If you can't do either of those then it's not very practical unless you want to spend 30-60 minutes at a charging station every week vs <3 minutes for an ICE car.

But they're still a lot more practical for those people than a hydrogen car. Even if I couldn't charge at home, at least I can still charge somewhere. If I want hydrogen I'd have to go to a welding supply shop and rent a tank of it, and then I'd have to find a way to get it into my car. Even in the worst case scenario I can get electricity from a multitude of sources, there are zero hydrogen filling stations for cars anywhere in my region. None. There are numerous EV chargers, and more all of the time. If you're going to install new infrastructure then EV charging stations are the obvious answer. A very distant alternative would be CNG, we already have natural gas piped to most homes and businesses around the country, all you need is a compressor to fill a CNG vehicle. It's pretty unlikely, but it makes a whole lot more sense than hydrogen. I really struggle to understand this mentality of "There is not sufficient infrastructure for EVs so let's all get hydrogen cars that have zero infrastructure!" 

Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it. It's difficult and dangerous to store in large quantities, difficult to transport safely, difficult to store in a vehicle, there is zero infrastructure, it's just a total non starter. I would wager a considerable sum that hydrogen powered cars never reach 10% of the number of EVs on the road in my lifetime and I think 10% would be a very generous number, in reality 0.1% is unlikely to happen. It was a pipe dream of the 90s and earlier, it looked interesting back when battery technology was hopelessly inadequate for a practical car, we're long past that now, EVs have won, the battle is over and has been for several years now.

Yes, hydrogen is a dead end for consumer cars, it will never happen.

[timelessbeing]

Hydrogen just has so many problems that there's no reason to even consider it. It's not a fuel because you can't mine it, it has to be manufactured which consumes a lot more energy than you get out by burning it.

I think you have some gaps in your knowledge. By your definition (which is meaningless and oversimplifying), gasoline/diesel aren't fuels either. It's not mined. It is refined from petroleum with the addition of energy, just like hydrogen. Electricity for EV cars also needs to be generated first, and you need to put more energy into making it then you will transform into propulsion.(not even counting the batteries) That's just thermodynamics, but it doesn't concern the consumer. The bottom line is cost per km, so we'll see how that goes. Hydrogen is very efficient.

The is no combustion in a FCEV. H and O are combined via proton exchange membrane.

BEV had many problems at the beginning too (and still do). Hydrogen is just behind.

[EEVblog]

The bottom line is cost per km, so we'll see how that goes. Hydrogen is very efficient.

Cost doesn't matter a rats arse if it's not practical for the consumer.
You could give people free hydrogen forever, or free EV charging forever, but if they don't have the means to readily refill in a practical manner then they aren't going to want it.

[Bud]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

[EEVblog]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

Unless you did a lot of miles a day then you might only need to charge at home maybe once a week, and you'd usually do this overnight when you are sleeping.
We charge ours maybe once a week and the 280km range at 80% is enough for what we need it for.
The thing with EV's is that it's a good idea to keep them topped up just in case you have to go somewhere unexpected, because you likely can't just go somewhere and fast charge it at a moments notice like you can with an ICE car.

[Monkeh]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to. It doesn't need charging daily, the cable should be outside in a convenient location, it should not be dangling across the lawn or in the way of your mower, and rain and snow aren't problematic because, y'know, they're aware these things happen and design around the conditions.

[EEVblog]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to.

You don't have to buy an EV either.
Almost everyone buys a type of car that fits their various needs.
When we bought our Dualis +2 (ICE) family car a decade ago it had to physically fit in our small garage, so our buying decision was literally made with tape measure in hand.
When we got the EV we had to swap sides in the garage so the charging was more convenient. Now we are looking at taking out the centre pylon and having one big garage door instead of two. The charger is currently on the center pylon so we'll have to find another solution.

[Monkeh]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

I can't see myself doing any of those things either. Oh, that's because you uhm, don't have to.

You don't have to buy an EV either.

Yet..

And yes, my last car purchase was not an EV, because there just isn't one which suits my needs.

[james_s]

4 super chargers in all of Sydney + a couple of other third party 250kW capable DC fast chargers.
Might be ok if you live near one, otherwise it would be a PITA.

I don't know anything about Sydney but they're all over the place out here and they keep installing more of them. Then there are the third party chargers, and then there are loads of places that offer destination charging. The navigation system built into the car knows where all the Tesla chargers are and can show you which ones are within range. I have a 240V 30A receptacle for my welder in my garage so I just charged it at home while I had it but my dad lived in a condominium and relied entirely on public chargers. It was really no problem at all.

Backing up to the point, how many hydrogen filling stations are there in Sydney? AFAIK the nearest one to me is about 1500 miles away in California.

[james_s]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

One of my friends charges his in his driveway, he just sets the cable off to the side in his driveway or rolls it up and sets the coil in front of the garage door when he leaves. Pulls into the driveway and plugs it in, it takes 10 seconds, total non issue. As somebody who drives a gasoline powered car I cannot imagine someone preferring to do what I do and drive out of my way to a gas station, usually at the most inopportune time, messing with a hose and stinky liquid, filling up and then going on to where I'm going if they had the option of plugging in the car each night like we all do with our phones. I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.

[EEVblog]

I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.

Yep, same here, never heard anyone say they regret changing to an EV.

[SilverSolder]

Good point about refilling in a practical manner. I can't see myself fiddling with the charging cable connecting and disconnecting to charge the electric car every day, taking the cable in and out of the garage to the car parked on the driveway outside, getting around the dangling cable with my lawnmower and stuff, worry about charging in the rain or snow, etc. This is irritating. I would rather go to a gas station once a week for 5 min and do not have to deal with the electric cable.

One of my friends charges his in his driveway, he just sets the cable off to the side in his driveway or rolls it up and sets the coil in front of the garage door when he leaves. Pulls into the driveway and plugs it in, it takes 10 seconds, total non issue. As somebody who drives a gasoline powered car I cannot imagine someone preferring to do what I do and drive out of my way to a gas station, usually at the most inopportune time, messing with a hose and stinky liquid, filling up and then going on to where I'm going if they had the option of plugging in the car each night like we all do with our phones. I think people just don't like change, I've never heard anyone drive an EV for a while and then say they miss their old gas car. Every one of them has raved about how convenient it is to be able to charge at home. It's certainly the biggest draw to me, if I didn't have a classic car that I particularly like I'd buy an EV. We have multiple cars so I don't need more than a couple hundred miles of range.

If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.

I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?

[David Hess]

Yep, same here, never heard anyone say they regret changing to an EV.

If I had to move to place where I did not have a garage at home for charging, then I would sure miss my old car.

And if I did not have a garage for charging, then I would not have bought an electric vehicle to start with.

[james_s]

If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.

I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?

I do love the sound of an engine, especially a big V8. If I absolutely had to get by without gasoline I could run one on propane, CNG or even ethanol though with minimal changes. When it comes to a daily driver though I would seriously consider dropping in an electric drivetrain into my car if it were reasonably possible to do so without major modifications. In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either. My wagon drives like a sporty car but I can fold down the back seat and it has the capacity of a van or SUV. The slightly less huge crossovers won't cut it because they all slope down in the back when severely compromises the cargo space. On multiple occasions I've hauled a fullsized arcade game cabinet in my car with room to spare.

[SilverSolder]

If you have some kind of specialty car (classic, sporty, hot rod, off road, etc.) then gas may be the only option.

I also think a "cheap" used car is still likely to be gas?

I do love the sound of an engine, especially a big V8. If I absolutely had to get by without gasoline I could run one on propane, CNG or even ethanol though with minimal changes. When it comes to a daily driver though I would seriously consider dropping in an electric drivetrain into my car if it were reasonably possible to do so without major modifications. In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either. My wagon drives like a sporty car but I can fold down the back seat and it has the capacity of a van or SUV. The slightly less huge crossovers won't cut it because they all slope down in the back when severely compromises the cargo space. On multiple occasions I've hauled a fullsized arcade game cabinet in my car with room to spare.

The station wagon format lacks height, though?  - but it does solve most transportation problems.  I have an '08 Escape Hybrid that I use for those types of jobs.  With seats folded, it has decent cargo space, without really being "too big" (and it is old enough not to be sloped at the back!).

[james_s]

The station wagon format lacks height, though?  - but it does solve most transportation problems.  I have an '08 Escape Hybrid that I use for those types of jobs.  With seats folded, it has decent cargo space, without really being "too big" (and it is old enough not to be sloped at the back!).

It lacks height compared to a van but not compared to the crossover SUVs that have replaced the wagon form factor. Those all have a sloped back that substantially compromises cargo space, especially when moving large bulky items like furniture and big boxes, I have moved a sofa in the back of my car and it fit completely with the tailgate closed. Most of those crossovers I don't even know where all the space goes, they're great big tall things on the outside yet the interior space isn't particularly tall nor do they have significantly more ground clearance than my car, they're just styled to look big and tall. I also have a clamp on roof rack that I've used to move all sorts of stuff including loads of lumber and 10 foot pieces of pipe. The car is low enough that I can load stuff on and off the rack without needing to get out a ladder or stand on the doorjams.

[David Hess]

In my case I have a station wagon which I really love, it's the perfect car for me in almost every way and unfortunately nobody is really making a proper station wagon anymore. To get a similar internal volume to my Volvo wagon I would have to buy either a great big tall SUV or a minivan and I'm not fond of either.

Station wagons and light trucks effectively became illegal:

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/

I got to watch this creeping progression first hand back in 2004.  I have a 2002 GMC Sonoma "light" pickup, although it isn't really light compared to older small pickups.  My neighbor had the exact same pickup but replaced it a couple years after the Sonoma was discontinued and the replacement was practically the same, except noticeably heavier to meet CAFE requirements.

[james_s]

Station wagons and light trucks effectively became illegal:

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how-cafe-killed-compact-trucks-and-station-wagons/

I got to watch this creeping progression first hand back in 2004.  I have a 2002 GMC Sonoma "light" pickup, although it isn't really light compared to older small pickups.  My neighbor had the exact same pickup but replaced it a couple years after the Sonoma was discontinued and the replacement was practically the same, except noticeably heavier to meet CAFE requirements.

Typical government, well meaning but poorly thought through regulations bringing unintended consequences that outweigh the good they were meant to accomplish. As the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The automotive industry is being crushed under the suffocating weight of regulations. There used to be so much variety and so many innovative designs, now everything is so boring, almost all modern cars are virtually the same, it's the reason I think that grills, emblems and wheels have become stupidly huge, there is nothing else to differentiate one brand from another. If I'm ever forced to replace my 30 year old station wagon and can't find another one I might be forced to get a great big SUV that gets similar or worse fuel economy in order to get the same utility.

[David Hess]

Typical government, well meaning but poorly thought through regulations bringing unintended consequences that outweigh the good they were meant to accomplish.

You are being generous; I think it is deliberate and very well thought out if only for protectionism.  The good the CAFE rules are meant to accomplish is rent seeking at the expense of economics.