Author Topic: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY  (Read 20107 times)

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Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2021, 07:41:45 pm »
There are 2 equal electrolytic caps at the rear output.  So depending on how the switching is done there could indeed be 2 such caps in parallel for each output.

I just had a look at the power transistors and was surprised that the DC SOA is a bit weak: only some 2 A at 50 V. So for the simple series connection this would be a bit underrated.  :-// . There are a few more transformer wires - so maybe there is some additional tap swtching at the bottom and using the transistors in parallel.
 

Offline rf-design

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2021, 08:48:43 pm »
Integrating a unique new, state of the art, high-reliabilty RTOS, engineered for optimised PSU functionality, developed using a cutting-edge customised Agile based methodology helps manage the complexity of the large software development to minimise the distractions of constant inter-team interactive incompatibility disagreements, such as memory and CPU  resource allocations, which plague traditional homogenous software developments.
WOW.... I am shocked by this management speak. Did not expect this here.

To give you a little entertainment. All classic voltage regulator circuits which have an emitter-follower or source-follower with a output capacitance could not adjust faster than the current measurement intrinsic delays. It seems to be clever to do this digital and combine low cost high resolution current measurement with the limiting but you give up the reaction time which could kill your DUT. Using a classic analog overtake circuit with analog current setting is the 50y old appoach. You could anyway measure digital in parallel. There is no reason other than to give up reputation

For much better dynamics you use collector or drain outputs with current source operation. The voltage mode is then by closing the voltage feedback mode. Current limiting is by clipping the internal drive current source. So there is no direct current measurment but clipping the drive current source. These technique is used for 30y in SMUs.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2021, 11:17:00 pm »
Why all the whinging about a mere 10ms or so to get the output under control? No doubt you're all hardware engineers who don't understand the extreme complexity and difficulties the firmware system has to deal with!
Honestly, I agree. With all PSUs I'm always considerate of where I set my CV setting is, and some PSUs are not suitable for powering sensitive circuits. BUT:
Here's a quote from your website: "Confidently power sensitive circuits" "Supplying extremely stable output voltage and current is crucial when powering sensitive components."

At this point you're putting your foot in your mouth somewhat fierce.

Quote
Integrating a unique new, state of the art, high-reliabilty RTOS, engineered for optimised PSU functionality, developed using a cutting-edge customised Agile based methodology helps manage the complexity of the large software development to minimise the distractions of constant inter-team interactive incompatibility disagreements, such as memory and CPU  resource allocations, which plague traditional homogenous software developments.

For example, this allowed the Wuppertal team to develop the overcurrent detection module, largely decoupled from the Stuttgart team developing the event management and distribution module, the Taipei team responsible for output current control functionality (with 1uV resolution),  the event logging object oriented distributed database team etc, and the somewhat undervalued 'Output Fusion' team. (Oddly, nobody seems to be able to recall where they are based).

Problem in search of a solution. In any case, this is an implementation detail.

Quote
With round-robin 1ms scheduling, 10ms response is actually world class leading especially given the need for triple checking the over current event is not a false noise abberation. And whilst the 550MHz processor might appear to be overkill,  consider that as the PSU could be used in safety crtical situations it needs to be fully MISRA compliant - appreciate how long it takes to do a full memory test of the hardware (including 256MB of Flash and 128MB DRAM) to be certain the overcurrent event wasn't due to a mains glitch or similar.
I don't think anybody is complaining about the hardware. But again, implementation detail. You're advertising a PSU for sensitive circuits. Do better.
 
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Offline solarmax1

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2021, 11:39:06 pm »
I don't own and R&S equipment.   Would love to give one of these a new home.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2021, 01:11:07 am »
I've looked at some other power supplies and none that I found spec overshoot on turn-on. Keithley in particular suggested reducing rise times in a menu option to prevent overshoot, so this seems to be something a user could do with this PSU (using EasyRamp iirc).
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2021, 02:53:20 am »
I checked an old R&S NGMO PSU and it has similar overshoot issues. It will shoot up to the setpoint voltage no matter the current, for 2ms.
So if setpoint is say 15V, current is 0.1A, it will shoot to 15V for 2ms, 10x excess over your desired current limit...  :palm:

I've looked at some other power supplies and none that I found spec overshoot on turn-on. Keithley in particular suggested reducing rise times in a menu option to prevent overshoot, so this seems to be something a user could do with this PSU (using EasyRamp iirc).

Yeah, they are within their given specs, from what Dave measured, worst case was ~8ms of overshoot. The relevant spec might be: Rise time 10% to 90% of rated output voltage, resistive load R&S®NGA101, R&S®NGA102 < 50 ms. Some PSUs will state a settling time, this does not list anything. Another reason not to trust banner specs, as they can simply omit any that aren't good.

You could do it with a custom easyramp setup, but, your Keithley option makes more sense. Just have a rise time setting "slow" "fast" whatever, where slow would guarantee no significant overshoot (say ramp output up 500mV/10ms and let CC have time to react, instead of slamming it).


Quote from Keithley 2308 manual:
Quote
Furthermore, the conventional power supply may have an excessively large overshoot when the DUT’s load current transitions from its operating load back to its standby load . The magnitude of the transient overshoot voltage could even be large enough to exceed the maximum safe input voltage, either rendering the device inoperable or damaging some components—a device failure or a field failure.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 02:55:24 am by thm_w »
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 

Offline commodore64

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2021, 03:12:12 am »
I have never had anything so nice, PLEASE enter me in your drawing!
 

Online splin

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2021, 03:56:27 am »
Why all the whinging about a mere 10ms or so to get the output under control? No doubt you're all hardware engineers who don't understand the extreme complexity and difficulties the firmware system has to deal with!
A 10ms spike is enough to kill your circuit which is why decent power supplies don't show this behaviour! It doesn't matter how difficult it is to get right, it simply must be right. You have to be able to rely on a power supply to do what you want and not push random voltages/currents into your circuit.
Apologies I should have made it clear that I was trying to be satirical. You're absolutely right - this behaviour is not acceptable at this price point.

I thought that post was sarcasm.  :-//
Also don't be so hasty, that PSU could make a pretty ok car battery charger  :-DD

 :-DD :-DD

Integrating a unique new, state of the art, high-reliabilty RTOS, engineered for optimised PSU functionality, developed using a cutting-edge customised Agile based methodology helps manage the complexity of the large software development to minimise the distractions of constant inter-team interactive incompatibility disagreements, such as memory and CPU  resource allocations, which plague traditional homogenous software developments.
WOW.... I am shocked by this management speak. Did not expect this here.

Oh god did that seem remotely plausible? I hate such buzz-word marketing w**kery word soup! "Output Fusion"? Beam us out of here Scottie please!

I was musing on a possible scenario on what went wrong with this design whereby there was too much design at too high a level - design by committee perhaps - rather than having an experienced PSU engineer having tight control of the critical performance and behaviour aspects of the design who would dictate and micro-mange the implementation (if necessary) of the control algorithms whether in hardware or software and would specify the detailed test process to verify the design. The fact that Dave uncovered this failure so readily (after, what only 3 tests?) shows that this didn't happen properly.

Perhaps the seperation of the HW and FW/SW teams was too complete, possibly even done at different sites or even in different countries. Big problems can arise if there is no clear engineering expert lead in overall charge of both groups, but only a product manager, possibly more concerned with the marketing issues trying to co-ordinate the two groups who may have differing aims and drivers.

For example, a new SW lead is hired because of their expertise in the latest SW development fad of the day which has seduced senior management as being the siver bullet they're hoping for. The old dinosaur engineers in the team who cut their teeth in assembler language who have hard real-time in their DNA get overuled by brash young programmers who don't have a clue what a PSU actually is but do know all the latest buzz words and want the flavour of the month programming languages, SW architectures and paradigms to populate their CVs - regardless of how well suited it is to the current project.

The project complexity rapidly spirals upwards until nobody can be absolutely certain of the low level hard real time behaviour - especially when layer upon layers of third party binary libraries are included whose memory and timing behaviour are poorly understood - hence the bizarre sight of a 550MHz processor with 256MB of Flash and 128MB DRAM being used to control a two channel PSU! Yes I know those parts aren't expensive and it's likely about having a core processing solution for a wide range of products, but if they'd only had a 64KB STM32 with 32K of RAM, the SW architecture would likely have been simple enough that it's critical pathways could be easily understood to guarantee they meet the specs, unlike the Java based garbage-collecting monstrosity (or whatever) they actually produced because, well because they could!

And yes I also fully understand that underspecifying the processor/memory can also lead to failure due to excessive complexities due to the resulting extreme optimizations needed. And that some engineers get called dinosaurs because they pretty much are.

-------

I'm not saying any of the above is remotely connected to this PSU's problem. I think Kleinstein could well be right that the main control loops are analog , although the processor is plenty fast enough and fast ADCs and DACs are fairly cheap now. What bandwidth would the control loop need for a typical PSU of this class need? 2 or 3MHz?

However the output enable overcurrent behaviour is so bizarre and slow that it has to be SW issue surely? Which means it's probably fixable. I'm guessing this overcurrent problem is related only to the rather odd output enable behaviour. I'm assuming 'EasyRamp' was disabled and that someone decided that a default slow ramp up was desirable despite the fact that traditionally the enable switch provides instant on. As such the over current control behaviour likely relates only to this transitory mode after which a properly functioning overcurrent control is enabled. We won't know until someone does some dynamic load testing. The spikes in CC mode when changing voltage may be something different again.

The interesting question is how did this problem survive into delivered product when Dave found it so easily and as several have stated here that they consider it such a serious defect that they would not consider buying it. We'll probably never know of course, but here are a few thoughts:

1) The CC mode behaviour at output enable time was not tested because CC mode testing was comprehensively done by dynamic load testing after startup and nobody involved in that testing were aware that the control strategy was different for a short period after the output is enabled. Perhaps being experts in the analog domain it simply didn't occur to them that the SW team would choose to override the normal O/C control when enabling the output and didn't think to check.

2) Much worse, they knew about this but didn't consider it important for some reason - which could arise where the subject domain experts don't have sufficient clout with non-technical management (much like various governments' responses to 'expert recommendation' in the covid crisis).

3) They discovered it late in the development but decided to release anyway gambling that most users would never find out or even care, which might be true for customers using them in industrial test situations who only the remote control interfaces.

4) Farming out the development to a team or subsidary without specific PSU design expertise, providing PSU expertise in a consultancy role, but not being in full control of the project. This could arise from mangement considering that SW is becoming an increasingly dominant part of the total development budgets and thus the focus is changed to being a primarily SW based company with specialized HW/domain support for each product class. The SW teams then call the shots and the HW/subject experts don't get sufficient access to find the problems early enough.

Or many more possible reasons.


Why all the whinging about a mere 10ms or so to get the output under control? No doubt you're all hardware engineers who don't understand the extreme complexity and difficulties the firmware system has to deal with!
Honestly, I agree. With all PSUs I'm always considerate of where I set my CV setting is, and some PSUs are not suitable for powering sensitive circuits. BUT:
Here's a quote from your website: "Confidently power sensitive circuits" "Supplying extremely stable output voltage and current is crucial when powering sensitive components."

At this point you're putting your foot in your mouth somewhat fierce.

Quote
Integrating a unique new, state of the art, high-reliabilty RTOS, engineered for optimised PSU functionality, developed using a cutting-edge customised Agile based methodology helps manage the complexity of the large software development to minimise the distractions of constant inter-team interactive incompatibility disagreements, such as memory and CPU  resource allocations, which plague traditional homogenous software developments.

For example, this allowed the Wuppertal team to develop the overcurrent detection module, largely decoupled from the Stuttgart team developing the event management and distribution module, the Taipei team responsible for output current control functionality (with 1uV resolution),  the event logging object oriented distributed database team etc, and the somewhat undervalued 'Output Fusion' team. (Oddly, nobody seems to be able to recall where they are based).

Problem in search of a solution. In any case, this is an implementation detail.

Quote
With round-robin 1ms scheduling, 10ms response is actually world class leading especially given the need for triple checking the over current event is not a false noise abberation. And whilst the 550MHz processor might appear to be overkill,  consider that as the PSU could be used in safety crtical situations it needs to be fully MISRA compliant - appreciate how long it takes to do a full memory test of the hardware (including 256MB of Flash and 128MB DRAM) to be certain the overcurrent event wasn't due to a mains glitch or similar.
I don't think anybody is complaining about the hardware. But again, implementation detail. You're advertising a PSU for sensitive circuits. Do better.

Once again my sincere apologies for not making it clear in my original post that it was a mixture of satire and sarcasm. The fact that someone appears to have mistook my post for an official R&S  company communication shocked me and shows how low our expectations have sunk that we can't easily differentiate between company marketing speak and the total drivel, buzz word soup I posted - believing it was obviously so.  Lesson humbly learned.
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2021, 04:44:38 am »
I would expect a loop bandwidth of some 50 kHz - 500 kHz, though the behaviour at higher frequencies (e.g. to some 5 MHz) could also matter.

Fast ADCs and DACs are available. Higher resolution (24 bit) is available too, but they still cost a pretty penny if one needs both at the same time. The DSP would also need a pretty fast data path to the DAC/ADC. That Dave called ADC near the shunts, too me looks suspiciusly like an TL082   (chip marked as T082).

Exceeding the current limit during short periods for turn on would not damage many circuits. The CC mode is never meant to directly drive a sensitive part / circuit. The more important point is no to exceed the set voltage on turn on. This is where some of the cheaper ones already fail.

Ideally I would like to have a slow and a fast current limit, so that for a short time the current can be higher, though not by so much (maybe 50%).
 

Offline Refrigerator

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2021, 07:17:29 am »
That Dave called ADC near the shunts, too me looks suspiciusly like an TL082   (chip marked as T082).
Probably to amplify the shunt voltage, as those aren't at ADC friendly levels most of the time.
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Offline rf-design

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2021, 07:24:34 am »
Ideally I would like to have a slow and a fast current limit, so that for a short time the current can be higher, though not by so much (maybe 50%).
It depend on the application how much "As" is tolerated if Imax is exceeded. For instance a high frequency PA which could be destroyed with time constant of the internal transistors. These depend on the size but could range between 10us-1ms. 3/5 material have higher thermal resistance but similar capacity to silicon. So the thermal time constant is very short. I would guess that the 20uF for a lower power PA could get critical. So reaction times in the us range is a practical advantage for protection.
But you have to get rid of the classic regulator with the output filter cap. And digital loops are too expensive for a similar performance. To me there is no clear advantage of having a code option with branches in the regulation loop. This would be the only definite argument for a digital loop.
 

Offline ERIC1123

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2021, 08:16:32 am »
can you give me one
 The power supply is too expensive for me to buy
 

Offline alouko

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2021, 09:20:55 am »
Please consider me for a giveaway!!!!
 

Offline glx

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #113 on: June 27, 2021, 10:33:08 am »
Oh, entry-level and around 1000 bucks somehow don’t go together in my head ;D
But I totally wouldn’t say no to one of these :)
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #114 on: June 27, 2021, 01:12:01 pm »
Yes... I need one of these!

I need it because I haven't yet acquired any R&S gear, and also I need to test its performance against my HP 66311B, my HP 6633B, my TTi TSX3510P, EX354D, PL320QMD, and brace of Manson EP-613's. I also need to test it against my VWR300 electrophoresis supply. In general, I need more power supplies. I need more power!

 :-DD
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Offline kilobyte

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #115 on: June 27, 2021, 01:51:58 pm »
I'm curios about the power off behavior. My HMP4040 (maybe only on older revisions?) for example does generate an overshot with round about 10Volt if you switch it off via the main power switch when you forgot to disable the outputs beforehand.
Luckily it didn't kill any components so far.

Test:
Set Output to 3,3V or 5V
Maybe connect a small load with ~100mA
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #116 on: June 27, 2021, 02:37:01 pm »
I'm curios about the power off behavior. My HMP4040 (maybe only on older revisions?) for example does generate an overshot with round about 10Volt if you switch it off via the main power switch when you forgot to disable the outputs beforehand.
Luckily it didn't kill any components so far.
You are lucky indeed. At one of my former employers someone used an overshooting PSU to test a whole batch of boards. The boards where tested OK but after they where built into the casing  none worked. Turned out all the boards where fried and needed all chips replaced. I learned 2 things from that: have overvoltage protection on every circuit board and throw PSUs which overshoot in the bin. Actually some co-workers objected to throwing the power supply in the bin even after it caused a lot more damage than it's purchase price. Needless to say it did dissapear...  >:D
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 02:40:27 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline manu

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #117 on: June 27, 2021, 03:21:15 pm »
I can't say no to Rhode & Schwarz
 

Offline billrule

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #118 on: June 27, 2021, 03:44:08 pm »
"fraid I have never been in a position to contribute among this august company, but that doesn't stop me lusting after a little R&S goodness :-+
 

Offline DEV001

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #119 on: June 27, 2021, 04:19:00 pm »
I am interested as well as it looks like a very precise power supply.
 

Offline Dagobert1

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #120 on: June 27, 2021, 04:41:36 pm »
I would also like to get one of the power supplys. I am currently setting up my workshop and do not have a power supply unit yet.
 

Offline MBY

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #121 on: June 27, 2021, 08:56:48 pm »
I'm in! I'm actually looking for some lab supply that can give a high voltage. Saw one on banggood that gives 120V, but it didn't instill confidence. High voltage is useful for a number of things, such as desulfating really old SLA-batteries that can have many kOhms of initial internal resistance (and sensitive current measurements is also nice in this regard), and electrophoresis and testing components such as capacitors for rating (and needed derating).
 

Offline kosmonooit

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2021, 09:40:24 pm »
I think I could live with the glitches :)

Please include me in the draw, thank you.
 

Offline Deepwinter

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2021, 05:25:51 am »
I'm in
 

Offline ascomm

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Re: EEVblog 1402 - Rohde & Schwarz NGA100 PSU Teardown + GIVEAWAY
« Reply #124 on: June 28, 2021, 07:25:36 am »
That CC overshoot is not that bad compared my BangGood El Cheapo lab power supply.
 


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