Author Topic: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs  (Read 20162 times)

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Online Peabody

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2021, 04:14:36 pm »
I selected the MCP6041 opamp for use as a comparator in a lithium battery solar charger:

https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/20001669e.pdf

I didn't find a comparable comparator on Digikey with a push/pull output with the same features - vanishingly small operating current (1uA or less), common mode input range extending to slightly above the upper rail, relatively cheap (although not in the jellybean class).  Does anyone know of such a comparator?  And in any case, the opamp is only driving a mosfet gate to let the battery power the load, or not, so switching speed isn't important.  I keep seeing that you should use a comparator when you're doing the comparator function, not an opamp, but in this case I don't see why.  The opamp seems to work fine.  I would only like it to work at higher than 6V if possible.  The circuit is shown below.

 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2021, 04:22:15 pm »
There is the MCP6541 - like the 1:1 comparator counterpart to the MCP6041 OP.

The reason to prefer a comparator is to get a faster rise / fall time at the output. The comparator is kind of missing the compensation cap and is thus faster, like a higher BW part at the same power level.
Some modern comparators have a little hystereseis. This can be good, but can also be bad.
 

Online Peabody

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2021, 04:33:52 pm »
Thanks very much.  Unfortunately, that comparator's maximum operating voltage is 5.5V versus 6V for the opamp version.  I think that's a deal killer for 5V panels, but will look at it.  The hysteresis thing I will have to think about.  With the opamp, when the source is lower than the drain, the opamp output goes low to turn on the mosfet, but even with the mosfet fully on, the output stays low, which is what's needed.  I think it stays low because of the voltage drop caused by RDSon.  I would need to think about how the hysteresis would affect that.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 04:35:46 pm by Peabody »
 

Offline Cervisia

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2021, 07:41:00 pm »
I'm not actually aware of an Op-Amp that has 1.8Vcc operation and second-sourcing.

MCP6001/TLV6001
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2021, 08:28:29 pm »
The old LM10  was available from LT too, and it worked from 1.1 V on.  It's an old one and rather extreme in the supply range as it can also work with 40 V supply.

There are quite a few CMOS OPs with relatively similar properties from many manufacturers. Not the same part number, but similar performence is available. The MCP600x series is kind of similar to the LMV358  in many aspects and also very popular.
 

Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2021, 09:25:04 pm »
If you are big enough, then you get to decide the standard.
Nowadays many manufacturers are equally big enough, yet packages and pinouts somehow converge.
Some other parts look like they were intentionally made incompatible without a good reason.
It would be great to hear from the engineers who designed this stuff when how and why particular decisions were made.

External compensation allows for tuning of dynamic performance which cannot easily be replicated in a part without it, but nothing modern supports it.
Could you suggest a good reading on this topic? I.e. what is exactly wrong with non-compensated parts and what characteristics are modified in what way with what external circuits.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2021, 10:06:18 pm »
Basically, external comp allows performance comparable to current-mode op-amps (which have high BW fairly independent of gain), while keeping the ease of use of the voltage-mode op-amp -- save for the sole exception of an additional required compensation network (typically C or R+C from the internal gain node to GND, or between two pins).

When it's the internal gain node, having that exposed also opens up opportunities like joining multiple amps together to make precision limiters.

But, it seems history was against that, and so we all got fixed-compensation (largely unity-gain stable) op-amps, consequently with terrible GBW-power tradeoff when high gain is required.

It's not like it's that much harder to use, it's literally one or two added components per amp.  Maybe a bit annoying for duals or quads; no one ever made a 10 or 12-pin DIP so you'd have duals in DIP14 at least, and so on.  (Though if we're talking hypothetical alternate histories, maybe DIP10 would've caught on then, who knows.)  Probably impractical as bandwidth goes up -- the physical size of the gain node begins to matter, and taking it out to a whole massive pin starts to cost a lot of performance, plus making the device more susceptible to ambient noise, or stray feedback paths.  Today we have unity-gain compensated voltage-mode op-amps with GBW in the GHz, where this is absolutely a relevant factor; but back in the days of 10-100MHz GBW being fast, it wouldn't have been such an issue (and indeed, wasn't, for the devices that did function this way).

"Unity gain stable" is an important term here.  It means that, given the amp's dominant 90° phase shift (it looks like an integrator -- which is also to say, it's dominant-pole compensated), gain falls less than 1, at a frequency lower than additional poles, which add phase shift that would then cause it to oscillate.

If the phase margin were measured at gain = 10 instead, we could accept having poles above that point (i.e., in the 1 < gain < 10 range of frequencies) and still have stable operation, but we'd have to sacrifice that we can't reduce gain below 10, i.e. we definitely can't make voltage followers for example (at least, not without hackery -- we can increase noise gain, because this is actually the figure relevant to stability; but as the name suggests, then noise goes up, and this might be worse overall).  Such devices are indeed available, for example some LT families have unity, 5 and 10 gain stable parts, so you can get the extra bandwidth when you also need the gain.  But, LT parts being what they are, and non-unity-gain-stable in general -- they're less common, and more expensive.

I should probably explain poles as well.  Taking the transfer function of the amp, in the frequency domain, H(ω) = Vout(ω) / Vin(ω), we find a normally very high (but finite) gain at DC, then at a low cutoff frequency (typically 10Hz, give or take a few decades), it changes to dropping proportionally with frequency (-20dB/dec, integrator characteristic) (this is the dominant pole).  Then at, somewhere past GBW presumably, it drops more (-40dB or faster).  Each transition, from flat to -20, or -20 to -40, etc., has a characteristic frequency.  These are the intersection points of the asymptotes on the Bode plot (give or take).  When we write out (or solve for an approximation of) the rational polynomial corresponding to this transfer function, the zeroes of the denominator polynomial are poles of the transfer function.  The poles have units of frequency (the transfer function is in the frequency domain), that being the "break frequency" where a new asymptote takes over in the Bode plot.

So, it's actually rather abstract, to do with how we model a system as lumped equivalent elements (a passive RLC circuit has a corresponding rational polynomial describing its frequency response), and how we calculate it (polynomials), but at its most basic: a pole is a cutoff frequency.

(And, zeroes of the numerator of the transfer function, are also zeroes of the whole thing.  So, sometimes we have those, which has advantages, as when the phase shift balances out that from poles, extending phase margin (pole-zero cancellation, or lead-lag compensation); but also having consequences for stability in a feedback loop, particularly for RHP (right half-plane) zeroes, which can be inverted in a feedback loop, becoming poles, and RHP poles mean oscillation.)

(Oh, and in general, poles/zeroes have complex values, so we plot them on the complex plane.  A pole p = ξ + jω with positive real value ξ > 0, means the response will grow over time, i.e. diverge, i.e., is unstable or oscillating.  So a "RHP" pole is generally a sign that something has gone wrong.  Finally, when we plot a transfer function, we plot along the imaginary axis, s = jω = j 2 pi f.)

Tim
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Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2021, 11:18:56 pm »
If you are big enough, then you get to decide the standard.

Nowadays many manufacturers are equally big enough, yet packages and pinouts somehow converge.
Some other parts look like they were intentionally made incompatible without a good reason.
It would be great to hear from the engineers who designed this stuff when how and why particular decisions were made.

There were at least 2 standards for placement of offset null and compensation pins, and multiple ways they worked.  Some offset null pins use an adjustment to the positive supply, and some use an adjustment to the negative supply.

Some parts have an alternative pinout because the die has to be rotated 90 degrees to fit inside a smaller package.  Check out the SO-8 packaged LT1013/LT1078/LT1178 for an example of this.  Later parts fixed this by either using a better layout or a smaller IC die, which points out that analog ICs *have* decreased in size with more advanced processes.

Quote
External compensation allows for tuning of dynamic performance which cannot easily be replicated in a part without it, but nothing modern supports it.

Could you suggest a good reading on this topic? I.e. what is exactly wrong with non-compensated parts and what characteristics are modified in what way with what external circuits.

Compensated parts have the advantage of being easier to use, but do not provide the same level of dynamic performance in a variety of circuits.  Non-compensated parts are theoretically cheaper because of the area saved by not integrating compensation capacitance, and they have performance and functional advantages if the designer chooses to take advantage of them.

The use of non-compensated parts is largely irrelevant today because the only common non-compensated parts are the LM301A and LM308/LT1008.  Linear Technology has a few parts which support "overcompensation" but that is not the same thing.

Check out datasheets for the LM301A, LM308, and LT1008 for discussions of operational amplifier external compensation.

National application note 29 discusses the LM308 in general and its compensation.
National linear brief 2 discusses LM301A feedforward compensation.
National linear brief 4 discusses LM301A fast compensation.
National linear brief 14 discusses LM308 feedforward compensation.

Chapter 10 of the Analog Devices Amplifier Applications Guide (1992) discusses how to abuse the compensation and offset null pins.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 11:20:51 pm by David Hess »
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2021, 11:49:31 pm »
Yes, they are very good for a lot of applications. Unfortunately, there aren't many low power opamps which would be jelly bean. I mean less than 10uA, but rather 1uA Iq. The other part that I would really like to see is shunt reference, that would work with just 1uA current. I have 1-2 parts that do this, but they are relatively expensive, and no second source.

No micropower parts were ever popular enough to reach jellybean status.  In the past there were some "programmable" operational amplifiers which allowed adjusting their operating current down to micropower levels, and some of these are still available.  Modern micropower parts, including references, are readily available, but none reached jellybean status and they come at a price premium.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2021, 01:44:11 am »
LM13700 being the last, more or less; not so much a programmable amp (there's more proper examples of that), as, its transconductance is proportional to Iabc, so it can be used for variable gain, variable resistor, tunable filter, etc. applications, as well as low current apps.

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Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2021, 10:17:18 am »
Compensated parts have the advantage of being easier to use, but do not provide the same level of dynamic performance in a variety of circuits.  Non-compensated parts are theoretically cheaper because of the area saved by not integrating compensation capacitance, and they have performance and functional advantages if the designer chooses to take advantage of them.
Thanks. I briefly read through suggested sources and began wondering why the word 'compensation' has been adopted to describe these performance modifications.
In my understanding 'compensation' means that a part is below its normal requirements and has to be modified to become normal, however, in practice this word is used to describe clearly augmentations of a part that is already normal and satisfies its declared properties into a circuit with advanced characteristics. So it is a compensation/augmentation against target performance in application and not against declared baseline performance. Well, OK, but I still think this is weird.
 

Offline GreggD

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2021, 12:35:49 pm »
Yah, "and yes you can get it in a single version of the LM324, the LM321"
Well no you can't.
No stock.
I did get some from LCSC along with Some LMV321.
And don't trust Octopart pricing of LCSC parts. Check LCSC to get accurate prices.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2021, 01:12:12 pm »
Compensated parts have the advantage of being easier to use, but do not provide the same level of dynamic performance in a variety of circuits.  Non-compensated parts are theoretically cheaper because of the area saved by not integrating compensation capacitance, and they have performance and functional advantages if the designer chooses to take advantage of them.
Thanks. I briefly read through suggested sources and began wondering why the word 'compensation' has been adopted to describe these performance modifications.
In my understanding 'compensation' means that a part is below its normal requirements and has to be modified to become normal, however, in practice this word is used to describe clearly augmentations of a part that is already normal and satisfies its declared properties into a circuit with advanced characteristics. So it is a compensation/augmentation against target performance in application and not against declared baseline performance. Well, OK, but I still think this is weird.

It's worth understanding that in this context 'compensation' is shorthand for 'frequency compensation'. That contraction is used so often that people sometimes forget to add the 'frequency' part when they are writing for instructional reasons, which can make things a bit difficult if you're not already familiar with the territory. So in all the above for 'compensation' read 'frequency compensation', 'compensated' read 'frequency compensated' and so on.

We're compensating for the non-ideal frequency response of a practical concrete actual operational amplifier implementation versus an ideal theoretical operational amplifier. The ideal theoretical operational amplifier has infinite bandwidth, infinite gain, infinite input impedance, zero output impedance, and zero delay.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline ledtester

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2021, 01:57:08 pm »
I don't remember the exact part numbers, but I've seen CA3xxx op-amps in a lot of circuit designs. Would they also be considered a jelly-bean op-amps?
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2021, 02:22:16 pm »
The CA3140 and similar were early CMOS OPs. At there time they were quite common, but not sure if there was a 2nd source. by now they are quite expensive and more a part for old circuits, nothing I would really use for a new circuit.

Slightly more yellybean are the TLC271-4  (TS27x from ST)  CMOS OPs for up to 16 V supply.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2021, 03:17:13 pm »
As I recall, there's a couple CA3xxx that are still relatively fast and cheap, RRIO or single supply, and high voltage (as in suitable for 12V supplies).  Wouldn't say jellybean, but nice to have.

ST has a number of very cheap amps, roughly like LM358 with improved specs; but still just a bit janky I think, or at least that's the impression I get.

Or particularly at low voltages, there's a whole slew of MCP6Lxx and the like, that have excellent specs, including precision (chopper/autozero), speed, RRIO, etc.  Not exactly jellybean prices though.

Like, compare these with the TLV2372 I mentioned earlier -- it's high voltage (16V), average specs (like a LM358), RRIO, well behaved.  Not especially cheap, but good enough to use.  I consider it a jellybean, so there's some YMMV as to what someone considers to be that.  Most generally, a jellybean ought to be multiple source, very cheap, and probably old; which the video examples cover, and these ones not so much.  As for in-house cases or personal opinions, some of those conditions may be bent or excepted for various reasons.  (Like, personally, I just like an RRIO part that I don't have to think about and Just Works.)

Tim
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Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2021, 03:30:36 pm »
We're compensating for the non-ideal frequency response of a practical concrete actual operational amplifier implementation versus an ideal theoretical operational amplifier. The ideal theoretical operational amplifier has infinite bandwidth, infinite gain, infinite input impedance, zero output impedance, and zero delay.
Well, I understand this, but I still find confusing the following.
An op amp that is not dead has non-zero frequency response and hence it could be said that it is already partially compensated up to some level.
Op amps with internal compensation do only their characteristic response optimized for something, let it be unity gain stability or any other mode of operation.
Op amps with pins to add external compensation circuit should be already half-compensated for some non-zero response and then we modify that response even further with an external circuit.
Are these op amps capable of stable operation without any additional components or are they inherently unstable without external compensation circuit?
Many old op amps have these internal nodes exposed, I have a number of them in storage but always hesitated to do any projects with them, probably because I'm a bit lazy for doing proper analysis for these weird bastards.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2021, 03:36:13 pm »
Op amps with pins to add external compensation circuit should be already half-compensated for some non-zero response and then we modify that response even further with an external circuit.Are these op amps capable of stable operation without any additional components or are they inherently unstable without external compensation circuit?

It's different on a case by case basis, some are, some aren't, some are until you put more than x nF of capacitance on the output. Hence: "Always read the data sheet".
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2021, 03:37:15 pm »
The CA3140 and similar were early CMOS OPs.
AFAIR, CA3140 is a cool op amp for building sensors, it's not cheap but also not prohibitively expensive.
I wouldn't call this one jellybean, it's rather on the top of a little mountain.
 

Offline Unixon

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2021, 03:43:10 pm »
TLV2372 didn't make the list smh ;)
Because there's only a list of 5, and this goes by number 6. :)
L272 is expected be in first 10 for its inexpensive 500mA outputs.
 

Offline MathWizard

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2021, 12:01:59 am »
Wow I thought the LM4558 as an audio op-amp, was a bit more special than just a dual 741, but I'm just getting to the point where I pay more attention to op-amp datasheets anyways.

I even have ne5532 or whatever, but still used 4558 in my computer stereo repair
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 12:04:56 am by MathWizard »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2021, 01:34:27 am »
Yah, "and yes you can get it in a single version of the LM324, the LM321"
Well no you can't.
No stock.
I did get some from LCSC along with Some LMV321.

In the past there were several "single" 324/358 parts from different manufacturers, but none of them remained in production.  Linear Technology has a single version (LT1006) of their improved 324/358 (LT1013/LT1014), and a single (LT1077) of their micropower improved 324/358 (LT1078/LT1079).  They are incredibly useful but relatively high cost.

Op amps with pins to add external compensation circuit should be already half-compensated for some non-zero response and then we modify that response even further with an external circuit.

They are almost always completely uncompensated.  Offhand I do not remember any exceptions but I am sure there are some weird parts.

Quote
Are these op amps capable of stable operation without any additional components or are they inherently unstable without external compensation circuit?

Above some high closed loop gain, they do not require any extra compensation.  For gains lower than this, external compensation must be applied which usually comes down to adding a single small capacitor.

There are some operational amplifiers with "overcompensation" terminals which are unity gain stable with no external parts, but additional compensation may be added to reduce noise and increase phase margin so more difficult loads can be driven.

Wow I thought the LM4558 as an audio op-amp, was a bit more special than just a dual 741, but I'm just getting to the point where I pay more attention to op-amp datasheets anyways.

The 741 does not quite have the full power bandwidth to support audio, but the 4558 does, so by default it became seen as an audio amplifier even though the original datasheet says nothing about audio applications, unlike parts like the LM833 which were intended for audio.

LM13700 being the last, more or less; not so much a programmable amp (there's more proper examples of that), as, its transconductance is proportional to Iabc, so it can be used for variable gain, variable resistor, tunable filter, etc. applications, as well as low current apps.

I was referring to "programmable" operational amplifier like the Fairchild uA776 which is essentially a 741 with variable supply current from 1 to 400 microamps allowing a 20 kHz to 1 MHz gain-bandwidth product, 0.01 to 1 V/us slew rate, and 0.2 to 30 nanoamp input bias current.  I think every major manufacturer had their own equivalent to something like this.  Later PMI had the OP-22, and Linear Technology had a couple which should still be available.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2021, 08:21:32 am »
The NE5534 is an OP with compensation for higher gain and the option to add more to make it unity gain stable.  For some reason the DS I have found is not specific about the gain needed to get away without an extra cap. Looks like 2 or 3 may do.

For an OP with programmable biasing, there is the TLC271 as a relatively common type. There are / were older ones in the ICL76xx series (Intersil+Maxim), but these got crazy expensive by now. 20 years one could have nearly considered them yellybean.

A slighlty improved (slightly faster and less coss over distortion - so more audio than precision like the LT1013) single LM358 similar OP is the MC33171. Not as cheap as the original LM358 and still at a moderate price.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2021, 10:16:17 am »
Would be interesting to see a side by side performance test of aliexpress specials vs. "real" parts for these opamps.

(or at least the LM358 ("basic"), LMV358 ("R2R") and NE5532 ("audiophile") opamps)
 

Offline robballantyne

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Re: EEVBlog 1436 - The TOP 5 Jellybean OPAMPs
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2021, 11:39:42 pm »
I've been making my way through the analog chapters of "Learning the Art of Electronics" (https://www.amazon.ca/Learning-Art-Electronics-Hands-Course/dp/0521177235/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Learning+the+Art+of+Electronics&qid=1636932923&sr=8-1).  It uses LF411s for most of the Op Amp hands on labs.  I would have thought this "made the grade" as a Jelly Bean.  It's slightly better than the LM358 in most ways but way better in terms of input current due to JFET inputs.  It's also pretty available on DigiKey.  It appears to be around 4x the cost of the 358.  I'm just curious if it would be jelly bean but perhaps just not Top 5.

Thanks,
R
 


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