EEVblog 1441 - Electric Buses are NOT a SCAM (Adam Something)

[EEVblog]

Repsonding to Adam Something's video claiming that electric buses are a scam. Lets analyse his claims and look at what's really happening with the cost benefit anlysis of electric buses vs diesel and electric trolley buses.



00:00 - Electric buses are a scam
01:20 - The claims
01:50 - Growth of electric buses in China
02:40 - Why not just put up wires in cities?
03:45 - Visual polution
05:50 - But they catch on FIRE!
06:38 - Batteries use slave labour!
07:20 - Cost of Electric buses vs Diesel
14:00 - Autonymous trolly buses
18:28 - Everything BUT fully electric buses are viable! Anlysis of trolley buses.
21:29 - Dave's practical table of Pros and Cons comparing the 4 options
27:28 - Electric buses are DUMB! Yeah, nah.



Adam's video:

[SeanB]

Couple of things about having overhead rails. Hard to install, as you typically either have to use eminent domain to attach to buildings, or put up reinforced light poles, which each need to survive a truck impact, and cannot thus be break away, so lethal in any accident. Poles also need a massive foundation, the ones here that were retrofitted, using the original trolleybus poles from around 1890, went back in using a 10 cubic metre reinforced steel foundation, to handle the load of the caternary cables used to put lights in the middle of the road. Light cables, not 3 tons of cable per span.

Then the street side, you need to have a dedicated bus lane, hard to fit in most cities now, and also make passing sections with multiple overhead rails, as yon run both all stops and express buses in most cities. Also needs to have wires run to all the depots, and thus you are limited in where you put a large depot, in expensive real estate in the city. Safety is also worse, you just need one clueless van with a high ladder, and you have a system down for hours to repair, or one idiot truckie with an oversize load ripping the wires out, and no transport for weeks to repair.

Electric buses have an advantage, can go off route for diversions, can go longer distances without needing the infrastructure, can use the existing roads, and do not need a dedicated lane set. Yes you need to charge, but you will find most bus routes run only 2 peaks a day, morning and afternoon peak commuter time, and the rest of the time they run near empty.  Electric you can easily have the buses park at a charger after peak, and charge, with a subset running the day low level travelers, and then have them all available at peak again.  Here you will see every day 4 buses running in a line, during the day, sharing the one passenger between them, but morning and evening they are more or less full, even with the junky service offered.


Yes, like has a counter, dislike has none............

[Chupacabras]

Those maintenance costs for trolley lines are calculated per 1 trolley bus? Or per how many trolleybuses? Is it for like 100 trolleybuses? I doubt it is 326k per trolley bus. And maintenance for electric bus is lower than for trolley bus? Hard to believe. Trolleybus is basically electric bus without battery. So maintenance costs for electric bus must be higher (just because changing battery is very expensive). Did you verify those data?

Maintenance for electric bus 3700euro/year, maintenance for trolleybus 9275eur/year, looks like BS to me.

[wraper]

Those maintenance costs for trolley lines are calculated per 1 trolley bus? Or per how many trolleybuses? Is it for like 100 trolleybuses? I doubt it is 326k per trolley bus. And maintenance for electric bus is lower than for trolley bus? Hard to believe. Trolleybus is basically electric bus without battery. So maintenance costs for electric bus must be higher (just because changing battery is very expensive). Did you verify those data?

Maintenance for electric bus 3700euro/year, maintenance for trolleybus 9275eur/year, looks like BS to me.

How about current collector wear?

[Chupacabras]

Those maintenance costs for trolley lines are calculated per 1 trolley bus? Or per how many trolleybuses? Is it for like 100 trolleybuses? I doubt it is 326k per trolley bus. And maintenance for electric bus is lower than for trolley bus? Hard to believe. Trolleybus is basically electric bus without battery. So maintenance costs for electric bus must be higher (just because changing battery is very expensive). Did you verify those data?

Maintenance for electric bus 3700euro/year, maintenance for trolleybus 9275eur/year, looks like BS to me.

How about current collector wear?

Do you expect it to be any close to price of a new battery for electric bus? I highly doubt.

[Chupacabras]

I recon it should be 37000 euro/year for annual maintenance costs for electric buses, not 3700 euro/year.
New battery costs 370k (according to video). When battery lasts 10 years (this is very optimistic), then it should be 37k/year just because of battery changing.

[wraper]

Those maintenance costs for trolley lines are calculated per 1 trolley bus? Or per how many trolleybuses? Is it for like 100 trolleybuses? I doubt it is 326k per trolley bus. And maintenance for electric bus is lower than for trolley bus? Hard to believe. Trolleybus is basically electric bus without battery. So maintenance costs for electric bus must be higher (just because changing battery is very expensive). Did you verify those data?

Maintenance for electric bus 3700euro/year, maintenance for trolleybus 9275eur/year, looks like BS to me.

How about current collector wear?

Do you expect it to be any close to price of a new battery for electric bus? I highly doubt.

As I understand that maintenance cost does not include battery. All of the infrastructure needed for trolleybus operation and it's maintenance is not free either.

[Chupacabras]

As I understand that maintenance cost does not include battery. All of the infrastructure needed for trolleybus operation and it's maintenance is not free either.

That's why it is separated into two values (in the video). Maintenance costs for the grid, and maintenance costs for bus/trolleybus.
Both values (when comparing electric bus and trolley bus) look like BS.

Annual maintenance costs SHOULD contain battery changing, so it will be more then 37k/year if we want to compare it to trolleybus.
Annual maintenance costs for the grid should be calculated per/trolleybus if you want to compare economics of those two options.

[Kleinstein]

The trolley busses may still need some battery to reduce the peak power requirements. So the no battery version may not be really viable. With the usually relatively low voltage in the overhead lines the power is limited. The trolly busses also have some tricky points a crossings. So it may be OK with a few main line, but it gets more tricky with a dense grid. Similar at the opposite end with less frequent used lines the investment costs for the wires just get too high for only a few uses per day.

An tricky part with the overhead lines is that the fire department has no longer easy access with a ladder. The wires everywhere also pose some hazzard, both fire and electric shock. Trees on the road side and the lines also are a bit tricky.

Battery electric busses make more sense than an electric car: they often run in start / stop city trafic and they usually run quite a few kilometer a week compared to a car. So the relatively high investment for the battery and limited lifetime from aging for the battery are less of a problem. The problem with cars is that they usually run a low milage so the battery may die from age, not charge cycles. To get the full number of cycles from modern cells it is more like 1-3 cycles per day and not 1-2 per week.

Given an increased number of electric busses the cost should go down, at least in the long run. Even 10 x the cost of a cars battery is not that expensive. Without the battery an electric bus may get even cheaper than the diesel version. For frequent use the battery costs should be well set off by lower fuel costs.

[Chupacabras]

The trolley busses may still need some battery to reduce the peak power requirements. So the no battery version may not be really viable. With the usually relatively low voltage in the overhead lines the power is limited.

Every vehicle has some battery. But it is just for electronics (like lights, displays, ability to open the doors, etc.), not for powering the motors. When the lines are off, trolleybus stops.
So it is not fair to say that even trolleybus has a battery like electric bus.

Without the battery an electric bus may get even cheaper than the diesel version.

Electric bus without a battery is not an electric bus...

[tszaboo]

Few things I should put right. I am with you, electrification makes sense, but I would like to give some perspective.
Budapest installed the first trolley line in 1933, and the current infrastructure was started in 1949. So the lines are there for 70 years, there was plenty of time to install everything. Getting approvals is not really an issue, as it is an everyday sight. While Sydney might have underground wires, lot of European cities, everything from phone lines, to power us above ground, so it makes little difference if you see 30 cables on the street, or 32.

Trolley busses without batteries have some autonomy, it is usually a few hundred meters, works with flywheels.
The usable lifetime of a trolley is very long, there are 31 in operation since 1987 according to Wikipedia.
Some of these lines are very-very busy, and have 300 busses a day. So when you are talking about stopping for 20 minutes to charge up: For some infrastructures, that's not going to cut it. Just to put it in contrast, Budapest has 2M inhabitants, Sydney has 5.5M. While Budapest has 1.3B passengers per year, compared to 300M in Sydney. Calling it busy is an understatement, imagine 10x the usage of the network.
Your infrastructure costs TBH doesn't make sense for me. Citys build tram lines, subways. The infrastructure cost will be much higher for both of those, yet they still do it, there must be a reason for it, right?
Dave, I totally get where you are coming from, and to your particular City, probably electric busses make more sense. While Adam something is also right, in some of his arguments.

[james_s]

We have had a fleet of electric trolly buses in Seattle for decades and there are overhead wires along the main routes. They also have hybrid diesel-electric buses that run on the wires where available and then they fire up the conventional diesel engine when they need to go somewhere without wires. I think the only battery on board those is the standard one for engine starting and to run lights and stuff.

[ve7xen]

Vancouver (Translink) operates a large trolley bus network across the city, and has done for > 50 years. These buses are due for replacement ~2027-2028, and when recently analyzing their potential replacement with battery buses as part of Translink's Low Carbon Fleet Transition plan (2020), they determined that:

The life-cycle cost analysis indicated that replacement of existing trolleys with battery buses may result in life-cycle savings. However, there are significant uncertainties related to future trolley bus costs. In addition, replacement of trolleys with battery buses would require either significant modifications and likely expansion of the Vancouver Transit Center, or the development of in-route chargers in downtown Vancouver – neither or which could easily be accomplished before the current trolleys must be retired.

Which implies that the life cycle costs are likely slightly higher than diesel/hybrid buses, even with a longstanding and large network of catenary wires and rectifier stations. However, this was largely due to the high purchase cost of this type of bus, which seems likely to be an artifact of their unpopularity in North America rather than the technology itself, to me. They also found that the life cycle costs of two types of battery buses (smaller batteries using in-route charging, and larger batteries with overnight depot charging) were currently both slightly higher (5-10%)than diesel buses, though they project the costs to fall in the next 10 years. According to their projections, maintenance costs were expected to be about the same for all bus types, though unfortunately they didn't provide such a breakdown for the trolley buses.

The most significant reason why electric buses are projected to be more expensive to operate than diesel buses are the high cost of bus purchase and, for depot charging, the required increase in fleet size due to limits on battery size and resulting range limitations. Battery buses are more expensive to purchase than diesel buses due to high costs for both batteries and electric drive trains.

...

Life-cycle costs of depot-charged electric buses are projected to fall below the cost of hybrid buses after model year 2035 but are still projected to be slightly higher than diesel bus costs through model year 2050.

I'm pretty surprised that the trolley buses are so expensive to purchase. I would have thought they'd be the simplest electric option, but I suppose it is an economy of scale. If the catenary infrastructure is already in place, even if they are slightly more expensive, perhaps the lower embodied energy and presumably better efficiency tips the scales.

[Lord of nothing]

Here in my City (Vienna) we have Lines where a Contractor operate Bus Lines in behave of the Public Transport Company. So it would mean the have to buy there own Infrastructure who I could not believe that will happen.
I cant believe that long size Bus could be replaced now:

We have here 2 City with a Trolley "O-Bus" System and one of them have also a short Tram System.
What I remember the Price for each Bus is more than for a normal Diesel Bus. In the Past in my City had Natural Gas Bus but the replaced by Diesel for no reason.

[BezITAD]

Growth of electric buses in China:
In China, the buses generally weigh less, cost less, and they have access to all the materials to make an electric bus locally and for cheap prices. On top of that there is always upwards pressure on fuel and gas in China, meaning electric is the better alternative. This argument means little. They also have a bus guideway which runs on dedicated above ground track. They have monorails and stuff. China is the land of throwing anything and the kitchen sink at any problem. Surely we aren't going to follow China in adopting their building practices.

Why not just put up wires in cities?
In modern developed countries, such a concept is do damn difficult, we've lost the ability to do such a thing. It's crazy how there was a day and age where the trolley or tram was seen as a solution to move poor people in and out of the city. I mean, what happened? By this argument, nobody would put solar panels on their roof either. Think about the installation cost of this, for just one roof. I mean, a tram line carries F tonnes of passengers, whilst your solar panels just allow you to run your dryer during the day.

I mean, society has crumbled to dust the moment we can't hang a bunch of cables through the street. I mean, we're digging tunnels for billions of dollars, and your saying hanging cables is out of question? The grid is already there man, it's not like you need to run new transmission lines all the way into the city for it. In Vietnam they have so many cables running around the city it's not funny. They have no problem, I just think that as a society we are like Rome, we've become obese on the luxuries of life and our republic is failing because we simply can't use any vision. Batteries are never going to solve any of this planets problems, but running cables down every street which could have renewable energy in them could be the best option.

I mean, tell me, which to you is a better vision, every person on the face of the planet owning a $20k battery that lasts 10 years before having to dispose of it, or every street having cabling. The true vision would be every driver driving a dodgem car down the street and overhead cables above every lane, and at an intersection the entire roof is like those dodgems. I mean, how cheap are dodgem cars to operate?

Batteries use slave labour!
Mate, I think the real issue here is there isn't a viable option for disposal of batteries. You imagine the size of the plants making these batteries, and in China, they are literally only able to recycle maybe 16%. And they dispose of them dangerously, they just let the gases escape into the air. I mean, if China can't recycle this shit, nobody can. All of these batteries are tomorrows generations problem. And I'm going to tell you, as someone who has been exposed to lithium badly, it's a really shitty industry to work in, I wouldn't wish this type of future for any of my children. Batteries are a problem, they are stockpiling them somewhere next to the solar panels and inverters from previous moronic generations of idiots who bought into the green wave.

You have a dream of a brighter future, but it's full of idealism like carbon neutral. The worst of humanity is on display with these batteries. You know how many times a single lithium battery ends up burning down a recycling facility? We are 20 years behind fixing our past mistakes, which include solar, wind farms, batteries and we'll never fix the planet from all of that Teflon crap we are still pumping out into water systems all around the world. There's no where on earth where you can find a single living organism that doesn't have Teflon byproducts.

[nctnico]

IMHO from the pollution aspect alone electric busses beat diesel busses hands down.

[thm_w]

Which implies that the life cycle costs are likely slightly higher than diesel/hybrid buses, even with a longstanding and large network of catenary wires and rectifier stations. However, this was largely due to the high purchase cost of this type of bus, which seems likely to be an artifact of their unpopularity in North America rather than the technology itself, to me. They also found that the life cycle costs of two types of battery buses (smaller batteries using in-route charging, and larger batteries with overnight depot charging) were currently both slightly higher (5-10%)than diesel buses, though they project the costs to fall in the next 10 years. According to their projections, maintenance costs were expected to be about the same for all bus types, though unfortunately they didn't provide such a breakdown for the trolley buses.

Not sure where you/they got the maintenance info, but they've only been running electric on #100 route for ~1 year so I doubt they have much useful data as of yet.

the battery-electric buses cost, on average, $1 million to $1.1 million, while diesel buses are $500,000 to $600,000. Petrunic said based on the information that is available, the electric buses pay for themselves within four or five years.
Each bus will remove about 100 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions and save $40,000 in fuel costs per year compared to a diesel bus.
Although there is no hard data on how electric bus maintenance costs compare to those of diesel buses, Petrunic said it is expected they will be simpler and cheaper to maintain.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/translinks-battery-electric-buses-hit-the-road-in-metro-vancouver

I'm pretty surprised that the trolley buses are so expensive to purchase. I would have thought they'd be the simplest electric option, but I suppose it is an economy of scale. If the catenary infrastructure is already in place, even if they are slightly more expensive, perhaps the lower embodied energy and presumably better efficiency tips the scales.

http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/translink/d40lf/tlink_e40lfpics.html ~1mil each trolley in 2003.
Its essentially already an electric bus, with just a smaller battery, so the cost is not much less. Plus the articulating units are 60ft, which is 20ft longer than the electric bus.
As you say the design is unique, not many other customers to sell to.

[ve7xen]

Not sure where you/they got the maintenance info, but they've only been running electric on #100 route for ~1 year so I doubt they have much useful data as of yet.

My comment is entirely based on the PDF I linked, it was the most authoritative document I could find speaking about this. They don't go into detail on maintenance costs other than to say that other than overhaul, "only 25 – 40 percent of current maintenance activities will change" and to mention some of the other costs/changes associated with BEBs. But as in most life cycle analysis for this kind of purpose, the assumptions are mostly quite conservative, so they may have just pulled 'equivalent' out of their ass as a starting point.

Petrunic said it is expected they will be simpler and cheaper to maintain.

I'd expect that to be the case too, but it doesn't seem to be the assumption Translink is basing their fleet planning on.

Its essentially already an electric bus, with just a smaller battery, so the cost is not much less. Plus the articulating units are 60ft, which is 20ft longer than the electric bus.
As you say the design is unique, not many other customers to sell to.

The same document talks at fair length about battery costs and how it is a major cost driver for BEBs, and makes a point of differentiating between the lower capacity in-route charging buses and the $150k more expensive larger capacity ones. They are claiming $945k purchase price for a short range 40' BEB, and I would have expected the cost of a trolley bus to be somewhat lower than that with its negligible battery storage (between a diesel and battery bus), though it is apparently considerably more, as they are clear that the expected lower lifecycle cost (on the existing trolley routes) of a BEB is primarily due to high purchase price of the trolley bus. They'll be purchasing 60ft articulated battery buses eventually, once they start deploying them to higher capacity routes.

It definitely all tracks to me that trolleys aren't a good option for a new build. I'm just kind of surprised that the battery buses win the economics game even with the trolley infrastructure in place. Economy of scale is a crazy thing.

[james_s]

My comment is entirely based on the PDF I linked, it was the most authoritative document I could find speaking about this. They don't go into detail on maintenance costs other than to say that other than overhaul, "only 25 – 40 percent of current maintenance activities will change" and to mention some of the other costs/changes associated with BEBs. But as in most life cycle analysis for this kind of purpose, the assumptions are mostly quite conservative, so they may have just pulled 'equivalent' out of their ass as a starting point.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Maintenance of the engine in a diesel bus is only a portion of the regular maintenance needed. Things like suspension, bushings, brakes, door mechanisms, HVAC and other bits will be broadly the same as a conventional bus. Then there is exterior cleaning and repair of damage from minor collisions, interior cleaning, repair of seat damage and general wear & tear, all of that will be the same as any bus.

[Alti]

I was really surprised to hear about astronomical maintenance costs of trolleybus overhead wiring, catenary support and the accompanying infrastructure, per unit, per year. Somehow my perception of this factor was incomplete, I really thought these elements come for "almost free"    I thought that once the catenary system is integrated with the city infrastructure, there are close to zero additional costs of maintaining it.

Interesting publication UITP "How to Build and Operate an Efficient Trolleybus System" pdf

[quarros]

Why am I not surprised that Budapest is the place for this example. 
Sure in Budapest the lines, the infrastructure, are already built for a long long time.

Also it irks me a bit why the (grid) energy losses are not counted separately from the maintenance costs.

Scratch that. The losses would also be there if a charging system is built out for most long stop bus stations.

[Lord of nothing]

 

from the pollution aspect alone electric busses beat diesel busses

sure and the Power come from where? In Germany the shut down there Nuclear Power Plant and use there Coal... 
Our City have currently an E-Bus who get recharched at the final Station in the City Center:

That small one is only for the inner City Center who there is quite no passengers.
For other Routes the would need an Bus every 1-2 Minutes. 

[wraper]

My comment is entirely based on the PDF I linked, it was the most authoritative document I could find speaking about this. They don't go into detail on maintenance costs other than to say that other than overhaul, "only 25 – 40 percent of current maintenance activities will change" and to mention some of the other costs/changes associated with BEBs. But as in most life cycle analysis for this kind of purpose, the assumptions are mostly quite conservative, so they may have just pulled 'equivalent' out of their ass as a starting point.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Maintenance of the engine in a diesel bus is only a portion of the regular maintenance needed. Things like suspension, bushings, brakes, door mechanisms, HVAC and other bits will be broadly the same as a conventional bus. Then there is exterior cleaning and repair of damage from minor collisions, interior cleaning, repair of seat damage and general wear & tear, all of that will be the same as any bus.

Not breaks though, electric vehicles use them only when a very rapid breaking is needed, otherwise breaking happens by electric motor.

My comment is entirely based on the PDF I linked, it was the most authoritative document I could find speaking about this. They don't go into detail on maintenance costs other than to say that other than overhaul, "only 25 – 40 percent of current maintenance activities will change" and to mention some of the other costs/changes associated with BEBs. But as in most life cycle analysis for this kind of purpose, the assumptions are mostly quite conservative, so they may have just pulled 'equivalent' out of their ass as a starting point.

That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Maintenance of the engine in a diesel bus is only a portion of the regular maintenance needed. Things like suspension, bushings, brakes, door mechanisms, HVAC and other bits will be broadly the same as a conventional bus. Then there is exterior cleaning and repair of damage from minor collisions, interior cleaning, repair of seat damage and general wear & tear, all of that will be the same as any bus.

Not brakes though, electric vehicles use them only when a very rapid breaking is needed, otherwise braking happens by electric motor.
HVAC won't be the same too as it's implementation is vastly different.

[james_s]

Not brakes though, electric vehicles use them only when a very rapid breaking is needed, otherwise braking happens by electric motor.
HVAC won't be the same too as it's implementation is vastly different.

The brakes still need maintenance whether used heavily or not, both hydraulic and air brake systems need regular maintenance and inspections. The HVAC won't be the same but it will need the same sort of maintenance, cabin air filter, blower motor, refrigerant hoses, it may be lower maintenance than the engine driven compressor in a diesel bus but it will still need maintenance.

[thm_w]

34k vs 18k per year, 2x the maintenance cost for diesel: https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/12/10/3977/pdf
89 euro per day vs 33 euro per day, this is the one from daves video, but no idea where those numbers came from: https://www.maintenanceforum.net/cp2018/papers/S_Misanovic-mf18.pdf
"Maintenance costs for the electric buses was $0.55 per mile compared with $1.53 for the diesel fleet.": https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/electric-buses-mass-transit-seen-cost-effective (maybe deceptively low as the buses are newer?)
9,420 euro vs 5,350 euro: https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/304720

One from Brunei that shows maintenance cost being about the same: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/LCCs-of-diesel-and-electric-buses-with-breakdown-of-their-ACs-MCs-OCs-and-DCs_fig1_349444014
Another showing them about the same: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-costs-per-bus-km-of-plug-in-all-electric-wireless-all-electric-conventional-pure_fig2_299415308

So it seems to vary a bit.

[Rerouter]

Been part of a study into electric buses, so far for 1 use case, they are averaging about 0.85 KWh / km, Assuming the current norm of about 35c / KWh (they pay less), thats 28c per km,

Diesel buses in the same roll are using around 0.35-0.4L / km, which is in the ballpark of 60c per km,

With an average distance of 100km per trip, 40kmph average speeds, in this use case, 2 trips per day, that is about $64 dollars difference per working day, or in the ballpark of $12 grand per year less costs there assuming the normal KWh cost, and not there reduced one.

I cant release the raw data, but those are the averages over almost 1 year of usage.

[james_s]

35c/kWh? Holy crap! And here I was annoyed to see that my rates have gone up to 10.1c/kWh.

[Chupacabras]

34k vs 18k per year, 2x the maintenance cost for diesel

The most important thing: does that include battery changing? I guess it doesn't. So it's unfair comparison.
If you need to change the battery every 10 years, and the new battery costs 370k, then it's 37k/year+18k/year for regular maintenance so we can compare those numbers.
So it's 34k/year for diesel and 55k/year for electric bus.

[james_s]

Does the diesel engine require rebuilding during the life of the bus? I know they used to do engine swaps somewhat regularly but I don't know if modern engines last longer. Bus duty must rack up a lot of miles in a hurry.

[Rerouter]

Generally motors don't last much more than 1 million km in buses and trucks without needing major reworks or potential replacement, same for the transmission and some other parts,

Though before they reach this many vehicles will be considered for sale before that spike in servicing costs, as by then most of there original value has been written off for tax,

Some companies do deliberatly run very dated vehicles for the opposite reason, in house servicing, many modern vehicles have so much computerised that if something fails, you might have a bus off the road for months while the replacement ships in, assuming they can even diagnose it in house, while buying out 20 old buses for next to nothing and going on a take 2 to make 1 approach can keep those buses going with minimal parts cost for a long time, for things like school runs, where compfortable seats, etc are not really considered,

[Jester]

I guess the jury is in….In Ottawa, Canada we just purchased 485, 100% battery powered busses replacing the entire diesel fleet over the next few years. 

[Bud]

There is little common sense in Ottawa these days.

[Jester]

There is little common sense in Ottawa these days.

I’m all for the electric busses, strongly agree with the common sense out of Ottawa comment, what do expect when the country is run by someone whose greatest former achievement was snow board instructor. I fear for our children.

[cortex_m0]

I've wondered how feasible it would be to have overhead charging systems for buses, only at bus stops. Transit buses obviously spend a lot of time loading and unloading passengers through the day. If it were the case that 1 minute charging could operate the bus for 3-5 minutes, it could permit a cheaper and lighter battery on board the bus.

The questions are whether the buses would effectively charge under such a scheme, such infrastructure would be cost-effective. My gut says the answer to both is no, but I haven't tried to put numbers to it.

[Twoflower]

I think you're thinking something about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSA_(bus). There are several different types trying such an approach. Not sure if that's generally feasible. To be useful you need a good connection to the grid to get enough power to provide a useful amount of energy t the bus.

[EEVblog]

Does the diesel engine require rebuilding during the life of the bus? I know they used to do engine swaps somewhat regularly but I don't know if modern engines last longer. Bus duty must rack up a lot of miles in a hurry.

Yes. Someone in the comments somewhere who runs these buses said the engines are completely rebuilt every 8 years or something IIRC.

[Rojerki]

Zürich has had trolley busses for a long time and is now adding batteries to them.
https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/zurich-line-83-now-electric/

[thm_w]

The most important thing: does that include battery changing? I guess it doesn't. So it's unfair comparison.
If you need to change the battery every 10 years, and the new battery costs 370k, then it's 37k/year+18k/year for regular maintenance so we can compare those numbers.
So it's 34k/year for diesel and 55k/year for electric bus.

I was responding about yearly maintenance costs only, not long term or overall costs, which you can see in the same papers if you like.

A short range bus generally would be between 160-300kWh battery, current electric car pack costs are under $100/kWh. So it seems a bit absurd to estimate a $370k cost for a battery replacement, even if margin is 2-3x.

[nctnico]

Does the diesel engine require rebuilding during the life of the bus? I know they used to do engine swaps somewhat regularly but I don't know if modern engines last longer. Bus duty must rack up a lot of miles in a hurry.

Yes. Someone in the comments somewhere who runs these buses said the engines are completely rebuilt every 8 years or something IIRC.

After enough distance travelled an electric motor will need an overhaul as well. Same goes for the gearbox. I have replaced plenty of bearings on electric motors. In the end nothing is free of maintenance. An engine rebuild may sound like an expensive job to do but you really need to put that is a cost per km travelled perspective. On a regular car (a run of the mill, common model) the most expensive parts to maintain are tyres and suspension. I suspect that won't be much different for a bus.

[james_s]

While it's true that electric motors do require maintenance now and then, the number of moving parts and the complexity (and thus expense) of a rebuild is drastically lower. Once set up for it an experienced mechanic could likely fully rebuild a bus traction motor in a couple of hours (disassemble, clean, replace two bearings, reassemble and test) whereas a diesel engine is going to take days. Disassemble, take careful measurements, bore the cylinders, regrind the crank and cam if needed, new pistons, rings, bearings throughout, oil pump, face, reset and adjust the valves, etc. I have rebuilt car engines and it is vastly more complex than an electric motor.

[Bud]

Simplicity of maintenance of electric motors was not my experience. Why? I tried to find someone to rebuild my gas furnice draft blower motor and everyone said they do not want to do it because repair cost will be close to price of a new motor. And all that was needed was to loosen a stabborn hex screw on the blower cage wheel and move the wheel couple millimeters on the shaft so the wheel would not rub against the casing. I feel same destiny may expect bigger electric motors including electric vehicles motors. The lazy technicians will be telling you to replace the motor rather than serve or repair.

[james_s]

Simplicity of maintenance of electric motors was not my experience. Why? I tried to find someone to rebuild my gas furnice draft blower motor and everyone said they do not want to do it because repair cost will be close to price of a new motor. And all that was needed was to loosen a stabborn hex screw on the blower cage wheel and move the wheel couple millimeters on the shaft so the wheel would not rub against the casing. I feel same destiny may expect bigger electric motors including electric vehicles motors. The lazy technicians will be telling you to replace the motor rather than serve or repair.

You're seriously trying to compare a piddly little draft inducer motor that costs $100 or so to replace with a bus traction motor that costs tens of thousands of dollars to replace? Nobody rebuilds draft inducer motors, they are not meant to be rebuilt and by the time you factor in the cost of parts there is not enough left to cover the cost of maintenance. You'd have trouble finding someone to rebuild the engine in a $100 chainsaw too. The rebuild big diesel engines and they rebuild big electric motors for the same reason, they are cost effective to rebuild and are designed with rebuilding in mind.

[EEVblog]

No response from Adam yet 

[wizard69]

Actually I have a different take on this, buses as a for of public transportation are a scam.    It really doesn't matter if they are electric, diesel of pedal powered.    Consider just a few of these observations I've seen across America:

• Public transportation is vastly underused.    Daily I see buses running around with nobody but the driver on board.   Literally every day.
• Buses are HUGE obstacles you need to navigate around daily as you drive.   For whatever reason buses seem to be permitted where Semi and big trucks are not - why?
• In the same way as the above buses are a huge issue for foot traffic.    I once witnessed a guy getting smacked by a car while trying to use a cross walk.   A bus was visually blocking the view of both the pedestrian and the car driver.  Now this is not one strange incident. people regularly have to navigate around buses.
• Almost all bus systems are subsidized with tax payer money.    This is unacceptable.   Even more of a issue is that many riders as simply taking advantage of the fact that somebody else pays for their personal transportation needs.    There is no room in my heart for people that don't pay their own way when they are fully capable.
• In many areas buses are transportation systems for drug dealers / criminals.   That is the public transportation systems actually lead to the decline of neighborhoods.
• In the case of current solutions buses pollute like there is no tomorrow.   Electrics will just transfer that pollution to some other location.   Yes I know all the garbage about renewables ( a sad term), but it will take decades before there is a significant impact on pollution from buses.   Beyond that electrics do not solve the issue of wasted energy due to the buses running empty or nearly so.   The whole concept of a bus system is wasteful of energy.

I could go on but I really think it is time to address public transportation in smarter and frankly more modern ways.   Some possibilities:

• If there must be buses get them off the roads where automobiles and pedestrians operate.   This especially in the concentrated parts of a city or village.
• Make use of elevated or tunneled trams, monorails or other devices that clear the highways.
• Implement horizontal "elevators" for building to building transfers.   I seriously do not understand why we don't see more of this.    It would be fairly easy to make use of existing elevator tech.   If an elevator can move some body 50 stories it should be easy to cover a city block or two.   There are actually people movers in Las Vegas that come close too what I'm imagining here.   The idea though is to have such technology integrated into buildings / communities from the start, just like buildings are designed with elevators from the start.   The local hospital complex is a motivator for this idea as the complex covers a very large area.
• Make use of powered side walks and other aids to pedestrians.   Again I come back to the city of Las Vegas witch is a very walkable city.   Powered side walks mean quick transportation between buildings and elevated crossings over very busy streets serve the interest of everybody.    Walking is often faster that any motorized solution.
• Which brings up walking.   Walking or bike riding, should be encouraged in many cases.    That should be a factor in all new designs and reconstructions.   Your life should not be at stake crossing a street.
• I'd honestly would prefer to see much smaller vans and buses on the street if we need to have them at all.   I'd just feel less angry when they are operating empty.   Some of the above suggestions would lead to this being a possibility if the use of buses for short hops was not needed anymore.

One of the big issues with public transportation is that communities got in their heads that one solution fits all needs.   Thus we have many communities where buses are the only solution and have become the wrong solution.   When you need to move people in bulk, say from an airport or convention center, subways or elevated solutions are a better choice.   In other cases the volume is so low that again buses are stupid.

So obviously I hate buses but it is for good reason.   For some reason communities and the organizations that operate the buses, got this idea that massive buses solve all problems.   In reality they are a terrible solution for most public transportation needs.   I really believe that there are better ways to spend out public transportation dollars.

[thm_w]

Actually I have a different take on this, buses as a for of public transportation are a scam.    It really doesn't matter if they are electric, diesel of pedal powered.    Consider just a few of these observations I've seen across America:

Your take is from the point of view of a spoiled automobile owner, and you haven't provided any hard data, only opinion.
Transit use is way down, due to covid: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/01/transit-data-economy/

No it doesn't take "decades" to pay back emissions of an electric bus, its a matter of years: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/3/770/pdf the fact that it takes 5 years or less to payback the higher upfront price, should have been a hint.

American cities were designed around the automobile, you can't go back in time and redesign major roadways overnight.
Yes, the best is to design more around walkability/etc and they should do that going forward. But getting rid of buses doesn't help to achieve that, it simply punishes poor people.

[TimFox]

A particularly silly statement above:
"5. In many areas buses are transportation systems for drug dealers / criminals.   That is the public transportation systems actually lead to the decline of neighborhoods."
Drive-by shootings and smash-and-grab thefts, now plaguing American cities, are never done from public buses.  The usual vehicle is a "dark-colored SUV" or "dark-colored sedan" in the crime news reports.

[Bud]

In many areas buses are transportation systems for drug dealers / criminals. 

I thought that are Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

[nctnico]

Actually I have a different take on this, buses as a for of public transportation are a scam.    It really doesn't matter if they are electric, diesel of pedal powered.    Consider just a few of these observations I've seen across America:

Your take is from the point of view of a spoiled automobile owner, and you haven't provided any hard data, only opinion.
Transit use is way down, due to covid: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/01/transit-data-economy/

No it doesn't take "decades" to pay back emissions of an electric bus, its a matter of years: https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/3/770/pdf the fact that it takes 5 years or less to payback the higher upfront price, should have been a hint.

American cities were designed around the automobile, you can't go back in time and redesign major roadways overnight.
Yes, the best is to design more around walkability/etc and they should do that going forward. But getting rid of buses doesn't help to achieve that, it simply punishes poor people.

I agree. Over here bus companies are privately owned and need to make a profit to keep their busses going. They tend to cut routes which aren't profitable.

Side note: The city I live in didn't exist when I was born and it was designed with a seperate car, bus and bycicle infrastructure from the start which is pretty nifty but not a real option for existing cities. In France and Germany you see that they have created extra bycicle and bus lanes by converting existing lanes but it is not an ideal situation especially at intersections where all the different traffic crosses.

A particularly silly statement above:
"5. In many areas buses are transportation systems for drug dealers / criminals.   That is the public transportation systems actually lead to the decline of neighborhoods."
Drive-by shootings and smash-and-grab thefts, now plaguing American cities, are never done from public buses.  The usual vehicle is a "dark-colored SUV" or "dark-colored sedan" in the crime news reports.

Next stop: drive by shooting 

[EEVblog]

34k vs 18k per year, 2x the maintenance cost for diesel

The most important thing: does that include battery changing? I guess it doesn't. So it's unfair comparison.
If you need to change the battery every 10 years, and the new battery costs 370k, then it's 37k/year+18k/year for regular maintenance so we can compare those numbers.
So it's 34k/year for diesel and 55k/year for electric bus.

Diesel busses have large maintanance costs. Someone in the industry said the engine needs complete overhaul at 200,000km or something.

[nctnico]

34k vs 18k per year, 2x the maintenance cost for diesel

The most important thing: does that include battery changing? I guess it doesn't. So it's unfair comparison.
If you need to change the battery every 10 years, and the new battery costs 370k, then it's 37k/year+18k/year for regular maintenance so we can compare those numbers.
So it's 34k/year for diesel and 55k/year for electric bus.

Diesel busses have large maintanance costs. Someone in the industry said the engine needs complete overhaul at 200,000km or something.

That sounds ridiculously low. That person probably forgot an extra zero there. A diesel engine in a regular car can do that distance without needing an overhaul and it is far from worn at that point (unless you bought an utterly crappy car or don't maintain it at all). Diesel engines used in trucks last much longer because these are build for long service intervals and typically run at lower RPM causing less wear.

See this PDF from Scania (random Google find) that states the maintenance intervals on their busses: https://www.scania.com/content/dam/scanianoe/market/au/products-and-services/services/ScaniaPreventativeMaintenanceGuides_A3_October2020_FINAL.pdf . There is no mention of an engine overhaul (= taking the engine apart completely); just components bolted onto the enginge that need to be cleaned / replaced with intervals depending on the usage scenario.

And again: needing an overhaul doesn't mean it is expensive. An electric drive train doesn't have an eternal life either. Electric drive trains typically operate at higher RPM and deal with more torque so the bearings get more abuse. In the end you really need to put numbers on these kind of questions/problems to see what is actually more expensive to operate. That requires looking at the big picture as well. When I look at the costs of my car: the money that goes into tyres and suspension dwarfs the cost of engine maintenance. Relatively small ticket items like tyres may not look expensive per piece (don't cause much hurt in the wallet when replaced two at a time) but over the lifetime of a car they do add up to a large amount. I'm pretty sure that will be the same for a bus.

In the end it is better to compare cost based on distance travelled (cost per km) instead of obsessing over seemingly big ticket items.

[EEVblog]

In the end it is better to compare cost based on distance travelled (cost per km) instead of obsessing over seemingly big ticket items.

And that's what the local private bus company has done here in Sydney. The numbers are clear, EV's win hands down on cost alone, let alone the other huge benefits of reduced polution, maintenance, and smooth and silent operation. And we have zero EV government subsidies here.
Since my videos on this, a large number of people in other cities have said the same thing, the local companies are moving to EV's for the same reasons.
I'm not aware of a company that has tried them and gone nope, we are going back to diesel buses.

[nctnico]

In the end it all comes down to costs and fuel/energy costs are the most significant cost factor of operating any vehicle. If electricity prices go up then diesel may be cheaper to run:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-14/u-k-freight-train-operator-turns-to-diesel-as-electricity-soars

[thm_w]

In the end it all comes down to costs and fuel/energy costs are the most significant cost factor of operating any vehicle. If electricity prices go up then diesel may be cheaper to run:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-14/u-k-freight-train-operator-turns-to-diesel-as-electricity-soars

Sure, but any sensible country will have flat or reducing energy costs over time as they rely more on renewables.

Most of the UK’s electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, mainly natural gas (42% in 2016) and coal (9% in 2016). 21% of our electricity comes from nuclear reactors, in which uranium atoms are split up to produce heat using a process known as fission. The UK’s nuclear power stations will close gradually over the next decade or so, with all but one expected to stop running by 2035. Renewable technologies use natural energy to make electricity. Fuel sources include wind, wave, marine, hydro, biomass and solar. It made up 24.5% of electricity generated in 2016

Nuclear energy averages 0.4 euro ¢/kWh, much the same as hydro; coal is over 4.0 ¢/kWh (4.1-7.3), gas ranges 1.3-2.3 ¢/kWh and only wind shows up better than nuclear, at 0.1-0.2 ¢/kWh average.

[EEVblog]

In the end it all comes down to costs and fuel/energy costs are the most significant cost factor of operating any vehicle. If electricity prices go up then diesel may be cheaper to run:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-14/u-k-freight-train-operator-turns-to-diesel-as-electricity-soars

With electric busses though you can always invest in the solar charging infrastructure yourself to offset the ongoing cost. Bus depots usually have no shortage of surface area to put panels.

[james_s]

With electric busses though you can always invest in the solar charging infrastructure yourself to offset the ongoing cost. Bus depots usually have no shortage of surface area to put panels.

Not to mention buses themselves have large, flat roofs and being utilitarian vehicles they are not nearly as bound by the whims of consumer fashion and styling. They are one of the few vehicles where it might actually make sense to put solar panels on top of them, if only to make up for the draw from the HVAC and auxiliary stuff.

[EEVblog]

With electric busses though you can always invest in the solar charging infrastructure yourself to offset the ongoing cost. Bus depots usually have no shortage of surface area to put panels.

Not to mention buses themselves have large, flat roofs and being utilitarian vehicles they are not nearly as bound by the whims of consumer fashion and styling. They are one of the few vehicles where it might actually make sense to put solar panels on top of them, if only to make up for the draw from the HVAC and auxiliary stuff.

IIRC the figure just for running the HVAC system was the equivalent capacity of my entire IONIQ car (37kWh), or roughly 1/10th of the busses consumption.

[nctnico]

With electric busses though you can always invest in the solar charging infrastructure yourself to offset the ongoing cost. Bus depots usually have no shortage of surface area to put panels.

Not to mention buses themselves have large, flat roofs and being utilitarian vehicles they are not nearly as bound by the whims of consumer fashion and styling. They are one of the few vehicles where it might actually make sense to put solar panels on top of them, if only to make up for the draw from the HVAC and auxiliary stuff.

IIRC the figure just for running the HVAC system was the equivalent capacity of my entire IONIQ car (37kWh), or roughly 1/10th of the busses consumption.

Could be. BTW somewhere in the NL they have electric busses but the heating runs on -drum roll- diesel. And the heating consumes quite a lot of it  Who comes up with that?

[SpookyGhost]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet (Correct me if I'm wrong) is that you could use these buses for emergency power if the infrastructure was setup right. Does it sound like a viable option?

Houston Metro has 1,236 buses, and lets assume 250kwh per bus. That's 309mwh

For a freeze situation like we had last year, or a hurricane, that power would be fantastic to have (And buses don't run in hurricanes anyway!)

[nctnico]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet (Correct me if I'm wrong) is that you could use these buses for emergency power if the infrastructure was setup right. Does it sound like a viable option?

No. Calculate the amount of power a city needs. Think how to move a bus through water, a blocked road or snow. Also think why the power is out: broken infrastructure so there is nothing to power. Important infrastructure is equiped with generators so you don't need backup busses for that.

[EEVblog]

Something I have not seen mentioned yet (Correct me if I'm wrong) is that you could use these buses for emergency power if the infrastructure was setup right. Does it sound like a viable option?
Houston Metro has 1,236 buses, and lets assume 250kwh per bus. That's 309mwh
For a freeze situation like we had last year, or a hurricane, that power would be fantastic to have (And buses don't run in hurricanes anyway!)

Possible, but you'd likely want the buses still operational during a blackout.
Bus depots, being a fairly essential public transport utility should actually be autonoymous in terms of backup and charging. So even if you had an extended multi-day blackout you could still charge the buses atthe depot during the day and operate them.

[EEVblog]

He finally replied.

Only skimmed it, but he admitted that electric buses do actually make sense, because obviously they do in many circumstances.
Obviously his main hangup is systemic infrastructure and cultural problems, and well, that's just fine, it's not something I'm interested in debating.
I won't bother making a reply, there is zero value in it. A lot of people didn't like his first video and he has basically pulled back the claim that electric buses are a scam.