EEVblog 1480 - Lightyear Zero Solar Powered Electric Car

[thm_w]

Who puts down more than a small deposit for something like this from a company with no track record, that could just as easily be a scam as a genuine effort to build a new business?

Same people that buy JPEGs of monkeys. I suspect a lot of their troubles also relate to cryptobros no longer being able to afford lambos and this stupidity.

I'm not a fan of crypto, but this has nothing to do with that.
If you want to draw parallels, we have kickstarter, indiegogo, and others where people throw money at unviable projects.

The car cost ~$160k, a deposit of $4k to someone who can afford 160k is not very much (2.5% of the total price).
https://web.archive.org/web/20220210171049/https://lightyear.one/reserve

[nctnico]

I guess it is fine if you are playing with other people's money, but really, it should have been obvious that stating with $40K model gives you a way better chance or survival.

Just making a plain $40k EV is already a decent achievement. You can sell this alone. Any other gimmicks on top of that is just a plus.

A startup has zero chance of survival if it can't offer something new and different. A number of people now make a $40k EV. Unless the value proposition of a startup's cars, cheap or expensive, is profoundly different from anything available from an established brand, with their established support network and reasonable chance of parts availability, a startup can't compete.

Yep. At least the Apera looks fantastically futuristic, will sell well on that alone. Heck if they were available in Australia then I might buy one.

EDIT, just saw this: https://thedriven.io/2023/01/25/aptera-to-launch-solar-powered-ev-in-2023-but-australia-will-have-to-wait/

What sort black magic trickery are they doing to get that through homologation??!!! That's every safety engineers nightmare.

Likely it is classified as a trike / motorcycle.

[coppice]

I guess it is fine if you are playing with other people's money, but really, it should have been obvious that stating with $40K model gives you a way better chance or survival.

Just making a plain $40k EV is already a decent achievement. You can sell this alone. Any other gimmicks on top of that is just a plus.

A startup has zero chance of survival if it can't offer something new and different. A number of people now make a $40k EV. Unless the value proposition of a startup's cars, cheap or expensive, is profoundly different from anything available from an established brand, with their established support network and reasonable chance of parts availability, a startup can't compete.

Yep. At least the Apera looks fantastically futuristic, will sell well on that alone. Heck if they were available in Australia then I might buy one.

EDIT, just saw this: https://thedriven.io/2023/01/25/aptera-to-launch-solar-powered-ev-in-2023-but-australia-will-have-to-wait/

What sort black magic trickery are they doing to get that through homologation??!!! That's every safety engineers nightmare.

Likely it is classified as a trike / motorcycle.

The rules for bikes, trikes and quadricycles seem based on the idea that if you make the machine unsafe enough its OK for all the safety rules to go away.

[tszaboo]

The rules for bikes, trikes and quadricycles seem based on the idea that if you make the machine unsafe enough its OK for all the safety rules to go away.

Yeah, but you get a steady stream of otherwise healthy organ donors.

[ataradov]

The car cost ~$160k, a deposit of $4k to someone who can afford 160k is not very much (2.5% of the total price).

Yeah, but why? What is the logic behind doing that? $4k from a customer is not enough to fund development of a $160k car, even if you have a lot of people willing to pay.  I guess if you really want to be the first one to have it, but this in itself is a bad idea.

It is like pre-ordering digital games and then being disappointed when the game is crap.

[thm_w]

The car cost ~$160k, a deposit of $4k to someone who can afford 160k is not very much (2.5% of the total price).

Yeah, but why? What is the logic behind doing that? $4k from a customer is not enough to fund development of a $160k car, even if you have a lot of people willing to pay.  I guess if you really want to be the first one to have it, but this in itself is a bad idea.

It gets you emotionally invested in the product, while gauging serious interest. Maybe you put 4k in, so you are less likely to buy another car that comes up for sale, as you've already "decided", no idea.

The initial Tesla pre-orders were $5k? But they've done $100, $250, $500, and $1k, for deposits as well. So maybe lower deposits work better to get more people interested, even if half bail, you've made money on interest and generated hype.

It is like pre-ordering digital games and then being disappointed when the game is crap.

Yes exactly. I'm sure there are some studies but I can't find anything good https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0969698913001148

[EEVblog]

My 12 year old prius 3 has a solar panel on it. They never sold this variant here in the NL.
For the ugly duckling it is, it looks a bit better with the solar panel.

Isn't the Prius panel just for trickle charging the 12V auxillary battery?

[thm_w]

My 12 year old prius 3 has a solar panel on it. They never sold this variant here in the NL.
For the ugly duckling it is, it looks a bit better with the solar panel.

Isn't the Prius panel just for trickle charging the 12V auxillary battery?

It just runs a fan on the older models apparently: https://www.boronextrication.com/2011/08/13/prius-solar-panel-roof-option/
On the Nissan Leaf it charges the aux 12V battery.

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

[EEVblog]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

[McBryce]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

Yeah they all do, but not just for seperation. Many systems (Central locking, alarms etc) need to be running even when the HV battery and DC/DC are powered down. The HV system only gets activated when the user actually wants to move the vehicle and during charging.

McBryce.

[coppice]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

If for no other reason, they need a low voltage battery to pull in the breaker for the high voltage battery. Without that its hard to make the car both safe and convenient.

[coppice]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

Yeah they all do, but not just for seperation. Many systems (Central locking, alarms etc) need to be running even when the HV battery and DC/DC are powered down. The HV system only gets activated when the user actually wants to move the vehicle and during charging.

McBryce.

Most current EVs will pull in the high voltage breaker from time to time, as the 12V battery runs down, to recharge it. This is so a pretty small 12V battery can be used. This behaviour can be disable, so the high voltage battery won''t kick in during maintenance work. Charging of the 12V battery is largely decoupled from charging of the car.

[McBryce]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

Yeah they all do, but not just for seperation. Many systems (Central locking, alarms etc) need to be running even when the HV battery and DC/DC are powered down. The HV system only gets activated when the user actually wants to move the vehicle and during charging.

McBryce.

Most current EVs will pull in the high voltage breaker from time to time, as the 12V battery runs down, to recharge it. This is so a pretty small 12V battery can be used. This behaviour can be disable, so the high voltage battery won''t kick in during maintenance work. Charging of the 12V battery is largely decoupled from charging of the car.

True, forgot that situation.

McBryce.

[EEVblog]

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

AFAIK all EV's have an auxillary 12V battery for system separation reasons.

Yeah they all do, but not just for seperation. Many systems (Central locking, alarms etc) need to be running even when the HV battery and DC/DC are powered down. The HV system only gets activated when the user actually wants to move the vehicle and during charging.

McBryce.

Most current EVs will pull in the high voltage breaker from time to time, as the 12V battery runs down, to recharge it. This is so a pretty small 12V battery can be used. This behaviour can be disable, so the high voltage battery won''t kick in during maintenance work. Charging of the 12V battery is largely decoupled from charging of the car.

True, forgot that situation.

My IONIQ flashes it's big blue LED occasionally at night indicating that the 12V battery is being charged from the main pack.

[nctnico]

Either way the solar panel would help save some energy. I'd still be interested in whether solar panels on cars can also charge the main battery. But it is also possible that the electronics that need to be on draw more power compared to the energy coming in. Recently I read an article (IIRC originating from the German automobile owners club ADAC) that some BEVs lose up to 30% while / when charged from a regular 16A / 230V outlet due to all the systems that need to be on during charging the main battery.

[thm_w]

Either way the solar panel would help save some energy. I'd still be interested in whether solar panels on cars can also charge the main battery. But it is also possible that the electronics that need to be on draw more power compared to the energy coming in. Recently I read an article (IIRC originating from the German automobile owners club ADAC) that some BEVs lose up to 30% while / when charged from a regular 16A / 230V outlet due to all the systems that need to be on during charging the main battery.

If its having to warm or cool the battery pack that would be a large part. I assumed it was mostly AC/DC conversion losses, I2R loss, etc. as charging at 120V/L1 is less efficient than 240V/L2 (~85% vs 90%).
But good point about systems that would come on. Probably makes no sense to charge the main battery unless you are getting >100W of solar power coming in say.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7046253

[tszaboo]

My 12 year old prius 3 has a solar panel on it. They never sold this variant here in the NL.
For the ugly duckling it is, it looks a bit better with the solar panel.

Isn't the Prius panel just for trickle charging the 12V auxillary battery?

It just runs a fan on the older models apparently: https://www.boronextrication.com/2011/08/13/prius-solar-panel-roof-option/
On the Nissan Leaf it charges the aux 12V battery.

Kinda useful if you rarely drive the car, but only because of the use of a separate 12V battery in the first place, which is a design compromise.

Hey, you are not supposed to know that 
Yes, it cools down the car during the summer. I would argue that bottom line, it still saves on the AC therefore fuel.
Plus, you know it's still a solar panel on a hybrid.

[EEVblog]

Plus, you know it's still a solar panel on a hybrid.

The marketing strategy is simple, put a solar panel on the EV and let Joe Average consumer think it's for the main battery because they don't know any different, even if you tell them in the fine print

[nctnico]

According to a quick Google, the 2022 model Prius that is about to hit the market does charge it's main batteries (the ones used to power the electric motor) from the optional solar panel.

[PA0PBZ]

Anyone wants to buy one? https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/auction/01-46135/

[EEVblog]

Anyone wants to buy one? https://www.troostwijkauctions.com/uk/auction/01-46135/

If it was here I'd buy one kicks.

[nctnico]

How much would it cost to transport?

[PA0PBZ]

How much would it cost to transport?

USD 1500-2000

[McBryce]

Transporting an EV battery that isn't installed in a vehicle can be quite a complicated matter in Europe (and probably other places too). If it's a new (and certified) battery you have to at least be ADR2021 compliant, ensuring that the transport vehicle and packaging is sufficient and (I think) even the driver needs to have certain training. If the battery is a prototype with no type approval or crash test documentation, things get extremely complicated, especially if you need to cross a border with it. It's not a matter of throwing it on the back of the truck and off we go.
I assume that these credentials would need to be confirmed before they let anything go out the gate.

McBryce.

[SiliconWizard]

Plus, you know it's still a solar panel on a hybrid.

The marketing strategy is simple, put a solar panel on the EV and let Joe Average consumer think it's for the main battery because they don't know any different, even if you tell them in the fine print

Yes, though I think we could extend your statement a little bit.

The marketing strategy is simple, put a solar panel on anything and let Joe Average consumer think it will save the planet. Charge a high premium for that, and get good subsidies to top it off.