EEVblog 1497 - RIP Fluke. Thanks Energizer. NOT.

[mcinque]

Other brands may not be perfect but Duracell is crap.

Yes, Duracells have become crap in recent years, you can bet they will leak. But I have no confidence in alkalines. Mostly because someone explained to me the chemical issue that develops gas and pressure. And sooner or later, under pressure out of 4 stylus one gives up 

[thm_w]

Do you trust your multimeter to a cheap Chinese LiPo?

More than alkaline, yeah.

http://www.soshine.com.cn/a57.aspx

[golden_labels]

Yes, they are. There's a lot of wasted space.

The image you have posted comes from an article about disassembling alkaline 9v batteries. There is no mention of rechargeables in this article. Even if it was about rechargeables, it would contradict your words: about half of the tested batteries were stacks of F22 cells.

[wilfred]

I read this on the Panasonic site about why alkaline batteries leak. It's short and simple and not technical suitable for regular consumers.
https://www.panasonic-batteries.com/en/news/battery-leakage-causes-and-prevention

The solution is not buying only expensive batteries, or the ones you have never had leak before. It is routinely checking you don't leave batteries in devices left unused for a long time.

As long as they use similar chemistry they will all give of gas and blow the seals eventually.

The real question for me is what makes a cheap battery cheap. I would think the "cheap" that is relevant is anything before they are packaged. Because retail mark-ups and distribution costs shouldn't really matter. So if a battery costs 10x (just a guess) more to buy in a shop than it does when it rolls off the production line surely we're talking small percentage differences if the final price variation in retail price is dependent in variations in the much smaller production cost. Unless there is a correlation between Brand and quality which I don't think is clear if I or anyone else just says brand X doesn't leak because I've never experienced it. Age of the consumer could be a factor in that case. And the number of batteries they use as well as the number of devices left unused for long periods.

I have an elderly Aunt who, like many, leaves batteries in things until the thing doesn't work. COVID has meant I haven't visited in the last 2 years and I'll be sure and sweep the house and check everything has fresh batteries. And since she lives in the country where power outages are not uncommon I put lithiums in her torch and radio. Because I think they are less likely to fail in an emergency.

[james_s]

Do you trust your multimeter to a cheap Chinese LiPo?

More than alkaline, yeah.

http://www.soshine.com.cn/a57.aspx

I have loads of cheap Chinese LiPo cells and while some of them suck in terms of performance, I've never once had one fail in a way that damaged anything else. If anything bad does happen it's probably going to happen while it's charging and a little 9V battery isn't going to have enough potential energy to make the big fireball you can get with some larger cells.

[Fungus]

The image you have posted comes from an article about disassembling alkaline 9v batteries. There is no mention of rechargeables in this article. Even if it was about rechargeables, it would contradict your words: about half of the tested batteries were stacks of F22 cells.

Ten seconds in google will come up with an example of recargeable batteries that aren't stacks.

eg.

https://youtu.be/Q11yRODOBtU?t=246

[Fungus]

Do you trust your multimeter to a cheap Chinese LiPo?

More than alkaline, yeah.

That's not saying much.

Big Clive did a video on one:



Maybe not too bad but I'll see how my NiMH goes...

[golden_labels]

Ten seconds in google will come up with an example of recargeable batteries that aren't stacks.

Of course it will return those, because they exist. If you do not understand, what is wrong with your answers: see the difference between ∃ (existential quantifier) and ∀ (universal quantifier), and how is negation applied to both. The situation — as expressed in natural language — is not binary, but the error is of the same nature.

[Fungus]

]If you do not understand, what is wrong with your answers: see the difference between ∃ (existential quantifier) and ∀ (universal quantifier), and how is negation applied to both. The situation — as expressed in natural language — is not binary, but the error is of the same nature.

The best thing to do would be to post a picture of a rechargeable 9V NiMH where there isn't a lot of wasted space, eg. a single large NiMH cell with a voltage booster, like they do with the LiPos.

FWIW, here's one that's a stack. It still looks like a lot of wasted space to me:

[james_s]

Even if it was about rechargeables, it would contradict your words: about half of the tested batteries were stacks of F22 cells.

Maybe so, but when I wanted some rechargeable AAAA cells for a BT earpiece years ago, I disassembled a random NiMH 9V battery that had one of the terminals fall off and I got 6 of exactly what I was looking for. I've xrayed several types and found some with a stack of cells and others with a cluster of AAAA cells.

[Mechatrommer]

store your meter face up... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/gossen-metrahit-x-tra-m240a-dead-battery-leak-repair-help/?topicscreen

Big Clive did a video on one:

Maybe not too bad but I'll see how my NiMH goes...

i bought such 9V rechargable (random china brand i guess) few years ago, it self discharge within only few weeks. i dont use it, but when i pull it out of drawer, its pure flat, need constant recharging and now i'm not sure where i've put it. if you know a brand that can at least self discharge within a year or more, i'll want one.

all devices incl DMM should move away from alkaline at this age imho, 18650 is almost everywhere nowadays with plenty of power and energy. need 9V? use boost convertor! figure out the most efficient one! thats your butter and bread! i dont know why they still keep old mentality of using non-rechargable AA or AAA, the 9V one is even worse beyond rational thinking

[alm]

Alkaline and NiMH cells can be shipped without any additional paperwork. Nobody says you can't use primary lithium or NiMH cells.

Are user-replaceable 18650 cells common in professional tools? From what I see it's either expensive custom battery packs or internal batteries. And the latter have the disadvantage of the meter being unavailable while charging and limited lifespan.

[Fungus]

i bought such 9V rechargable (random china brand i guess) few years ago, it self discharge within only few weeks. i dont use it, but when i pull it out of drawer, its pure flat, need constant recharging and now i'm not sure where i've put it. if you know a brand that can at least self discharge within a year or more, i'll want one.

My Energizer 9V rechargeable seems to be doing OK. It's been six or seven months and the battery indicator still hasn't come on.

Will it make it to the end of the year? 

[thm_w]

i bought such 9V rechargable (random china brand i guess) few years ago, it self discharge within only few weeks. i dont use it, but when i pull it out of drawer, its pure flat, need constant recharging and now i'm not sure where i've put it. if you know a brand that can at least self discharge within a year or more, i'll want one.

all devices incl DMM should move away from alkaline at this age imho, 18650 is almost everywhere nowadays with plenty of power and energy. need 9V? use boost convertor! figure out the most efficient one! thats your butter and bread! i dont know why they still keep old mentality of using non-rechargable AA or AAA, the 9V one is even worse beyond rational thinking

Sure, the soshine ones I linked lasted a year easily.
The tradeoff is: you don't have a simple USB plug so its a bit harder to charge, and output voltage isnt pegged at 9V with a boost converter.

Agree on your second point.

[wraper]

all devices incl DMM should move away from alkaline at this age imho, 18650 is almost everywhere nowadays with plenty of power and energy. need 9V? use boost convertor! figure out the most efficient one! thats your butter and bread! i dont know why they still keep old mentality of using non-rechargable AA or AAA, the 9V one is even worse beyond rational thinking

18650 is not a type of battery intended to be accessed by user. All of those flashlight and vapes manufacturers are basically hacking a battery cell intended to be used in protected packs to be carried by consumers directly. They are not safe enough to be carried around just like that.

[Mechatrommer]

duh then i have a bunch of ticking bomb inside my lab sometime i repaired some laptop, camera battery, vaccum cleaner etc that have old/degraded 18650 in them with new batteries i bought from a local seller who stripped and "untab spot welded" batteries from i dont know which devices, i guess from some "factory reject" laptop battery pack too. he's quite technical and provide battery capacity that he tested himself with his tool and warn buyers its only for diy type person only. then the old batteries that i removed still have some juice in them that i can reuse in flashlight and other smaller devices that are not high current demand. but protected (current limited) 18650 also available sold separately everywhere (usually with protruding +ve tab, i think they are meant to be handled by normal users for low current demand devices incl such as DMM, except a bit more expensive than the unprotected type that i bought. ps: reminds me of a new member in another thread who have issue fixing his oral-b toothbrush by replacing nimh battery

My Energizer 9V rechargeable seems to be doing OK. It's been six or seven months and the battery indicator still hasn't come on.

thats what happened to my 9V rechargeable. if i press battery indicator button, its blank indicating totally flat battery after recharge, full 3 bars green indicator lit.

[Fungus]

My Energizer 9V rechargeable seems to be doing OK. It's been six or seven months and the battery indicator still hasn't come on.

Will it make it to the end of the year? 

Answer: Nope. I just turned it on and the battery indicator was lit up.

I installed in in February so that's about 7 months of light usage. I'm not hammering on the meter all day long.

I wouldn't like to say if it's the usage or the self-discharge that finished it off. Probably a mix of both.