EEVblog 1508 - We FINALLY Got Alkaline Battery LEAKAGE!

[manicdoc]

The batteries that leaked, did you buy them from Woolworths? 

[EEVblog]

hmm, $2,580.00 now we're getting more affordable. Still with one chamber or a couple that figured multiplies up. How about checking manufacturer specs on their batteries, and choose just a few temp/humidity settings? Time, well ten years is absurd for any of us to do. There is the idea of accelerated tests.

That's why you do daily cycle testing. Ramp it up and down until one breaks.

killer here is: time, your time, cost, and space. for me it would become an obsession

I have the space. Set and forget.

[TheNewLab]

The batteries that leaked, did you buy them from Woolworths? 

Where did I buy those from? a photo supply store (excellent store) or Best buy? maybe the one that survived, Walgreens? it wasn't THAT long ago!

Dave, Ah, yes, cycling it.
" I have the space. Set and forget."
 Then if you're willing I know ALL of us would appreciate it, plus this is an issue that irritates everyone. I would expect you to break a record for the most views. Plus Christmas is coming up, and I am tired of those stupid battery life tests each year that some consumer news guy reports.

 If you find the ideal humidity, I'll find the ideal material that holds it that RH. but, hold me to it! remind me. better, do the Chinese cultural thing, be irritating and blunt in reminding me. I grew up with that.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Hit up some home brew beer folks if you want temp control without going to that kind of expense.

[james_s]

Seriously, follow up:

how about adding a  Silica Gel Desiccant Canister?
https://www.amazon.com/Indicating-Desiccant-Canister-Dehumidifier-Reusable/dp/B09374N7WL/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3O43528I4G2WV&keywords=de-humidity+metal+pack&qid=1665980480&sprefix=de-humidity+metal+pack%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-2

into those bins? and caulk seal them? and wait 10 years?
Maybe by a mini fridge to keep at 68f (20c) degrees or 60f degrees, (not too cold, not too hot)?

OK, more like just an idea. I have a mini frig used separately for photo film and paper, (yes, I still print using a darkroom) while food frig remains below 40f degrees, I seal or double seal the photo stuff at about 62f degrees and freeze the long-term film.

I already have a small manual thermal chamber. The key is to temprature cycle and humidity cycle. Preferably you'd have seperate temperature and humidity chambers so you can do two different types of tests at once.
Not expensive to get a decent temperature chamber, but one that adds programmable humidy adds to the cost a lot.

Plug it into a lamp timer that turns it on for a set period of time each day. If you want something fancy, buy or build a proper temperature controller with a programmable profile, I'm sure there must already be an arduino program to do this floating around somewhere. Raspberry pi with a temperature sensor, SSR and a python script would do it too.

[EEVblog]

Plug it into a lamp timer that turns it on for a set period of time each day. If you want something fancy, buy or build a proper temperature controller with a programmable profile, I'm sure there must already be an arduino program to do this floating around somewhere. Raspberry pi with a temperature sensor, SSR and a python script would do it too.

Yeah, not hard to coerce my existing peltier thermal chamber to do some form of cycling.
I do want a proper large thermal chamber for electronics testing though, so I'm probably going to get one of those anyway. One with way better thermal capacity and ramping capability.
I could even bodge in those humidity atomizers perhaps to get greater than ambient humidity.

[Fungus]

... switch to NiMH?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery

not a solution. 1.2 volt just doesn't cut it. I have a tv remote that will not work with nimh.

Nothing else you own can switch over because you have one remote that can't?

Sounds like a job for: https://www.batteroo.com/

and I don't really want to muck with rechargeable all the time.

Why would it be any more "mucking" than Alkalines?

[golden_labels]

I think I'm going to have to get a proper temperatue and humidity chamber...

Haha! Dave looking for an excuse to buy himself a new toy!

It's a slow process.

If your "normal use" means changing the batteries every few weeks then any leakage during that time will be so small that you won't see it without careful inspection.

Of course it is. But slow is not the same as uniform. Dave was checking them for some time with no sign of any leaks. Then there was a period when he was not looking at them, during which they all leaked.

My theory is that all alkaline batteries start leaking the second they come off the conveyor belt. Some just take much longer than others to make a mess.

In this context “leak” is understood as making a mess, not merely having a single atom of potassium hydroxide escaping. This is an event in the second derivative over the leak rate, speaking in mathematical terms.

I have a tv remote that will not work with nimh. and I don't really want to muck with rechargeable all the time.

Perhaps replace the broken TV remote? Yes, if a device with no reason to have particularly narrow power requirements fails to operate with NiMH, I call it outright broken. If it can’t use NiMH at all, it also can’t use alkaline batteries through huge part of their discharge curve. And that’s a design flaw for something like a TV remote, which from ground up is built with battery operation in mind.

If you demand a class action against manufacturers of “broken” alkaline cells, you should also consider your TV remote to be equally broken, right? So that’s a poor argument.

Why can the (alkaline) battery industry not make a battery that does not leak ? Are they that incompetent ? or is there something else going on ?

Perhaps the things that is going on is… reality? You know, that horrible part of our life that makes us unable to have fun things like $1 tickets for a 2h travel to spend holiday on an exoplanet. Chemistry, physics and other scary stuff! Unless you can of course point to any technology that has been deployed and proven to not have leaks. But then you also must deal with the issue of intellectual property.

Whatever was the reason for no new developments in the past decades, in 2022 there is no incentive. This is the endgame for alkaline batteries. One they are doomed to lose. Manufacturers are more likely to squeeze the last penny out of the obsolete technology or pull the product out of the market, than invest into improving a zombie.

There is the issue of providing misleading information to the customers, regarding advertising batteries as not leaking or suggesting device replacement is a realistic option. But that practice is rampant all across the market, not related to alkaline batteries, and you seem to be more concerned with the leaks than one company making bullshit claims.

[free_electron]

Nothing else you own can switch over because you have one remote that can't?

it's an example. There are other devices that do not play well with 1.2 volt cells. the battery gauges don't read correctly, or they simply do not work at such low voltages. Smoke alarms ? beeep beep

Why would it be any more "mucking" than Alkalines?

i can walk into any store and buy one-time use cells. not so with rechargeables.
if the charger goes out : stuck.
i've been in situations like that. you can much easier find one-time use cells than rechargeable ones.
and good luck finding oddball cells. c-cell ? coincells ? quad A cells 2/3 a cells ?

50 years of leaking cells. FIX IT !

[free_electron]

Perhaps replace the broken TV remote? Yes, if a device with no reason to have particularly narrow power requirements fails to operate with NiMH, I call it outright broken. If it can’t use NiMH at all, it also can’t use alkaline batteries through huge part of their discharge curve. And that’s a design flaw for something like a TV remote, which from ground up is built with battery operation in mind.
[/quote]
this remote has a microphone built in and uses bluetooth. it is power hungry. nimh is "empty" after barely a day because it hits 1.2 volts. a 1.5 volt cell holds that level much longer
no replacing possible.

Perhaps the things that is going on is… reality?

50 years, and they have not been able to design a proper seal ? crap engineering.

[Monkeh]

Why would it be any more "mucking" than Alkalines?

i can walk into any store and buy one-time use cells. not so with rechargeables.
if the charger goes out : stuck.

Entire technology rejected because it's easier in the deep, dark corners of your laziness to keep throwing landfill-to-be at a problem.

If the charger goes bad, go buy your landfill and use it for a short while until you get a new charger.

[Fungus]

i can walk into any store and buy one-time use cells. not so with rechargeables.

In an emergency? Buy alkalines.

Then replace them when you get a chance.

if the charger goes out : stuck.

How often does that happen compared to not having any spare alkaline batteries in the house?

PS: You're allowed to own two chargers.

[golden_labels]

50 years, and they have not been able to design a proper seal ?

How is the seal not properly designed? I did not hear about any alkaline cells exploding from pressure recently. So I would say the seal works perfectly as intended: it releases potassium hydroxide. What improvement could be done to it?

[Whales]

Dave: Also try looking up "incubator chambers", especially ones used for insects and seedlings.  These have varying amounts of humidity and temperature control, including programmable cycling ability.  This might (?) work, it says it has a compressor, humidifier water tank and heater.


EDIT: You already commented on this bit.  Otherwise: it'd probably be cheaper to try and make one yourself   Start with very small thick foam boxes (a few liters) to keep the volumes of energy & water super low.  Start with just temperature (eg peltiers & heatsinks & fans inside+out), then tackle humidity (eg two optional PVC plumbed air loops, one to dessicant and one to water chamber).

[David Hess]

Maybe you are not old enough to remember Dave, but carbon-zinc "dry" batteries make a horrible mess when they leak; if anything the result is worse than from an alkaline cell.  From Wikipedia:

Zinc–carbon cells have a short shelf life, as the zinc is attacked by ammonium chloride. The zinc container becomes thinner as the cell is used, because zinc metal is oxidized to zinc ions. When the zinc case thins enough, zinc chloride begins to leak out of the battery. The old dry cell is not leak-proof and becomes very sticky as the paste leaks through the holes in the zinc case. The zinc casing in the dry cell gets thinner even when the cell is not being used, because the ammonium chloride inside the battery reacts with the zinc.

One of the big advantages advertised for alkaline cells over carbon-zinc cells when they initially became available was not leaking.

[free_electron]

So I would say the seal works perfectly as intended: it releases potassium hydroxide. What improvement could be done to it?

euh. like , not release potassium hydroxide or anything else ? Isn't that what a seal does : keep stuff inside the containment vessel?
It'd be a pretty poor cork seal if it lets the wine out of the bottle..

[free_electron]

One of the big advantages advertised for alkaline cells over carbon-zinc cells when they initially became available was not leaking.

and they have been spreading that lie ever since...

[free_electron]

Entire technology rejected because it's easier in the deep, dark corners of your laziness to keep throwing landfill-to-be at a problem.

If the charger goes bad, go buy your landfill and use it for a short while until you get a new charger.

No it is not rejected. There are many situation where you have no other option.
Electricity goes out. oops , how am i going to charge my cells now ? alkaline cells come "precharged".
I've been many times on travels where a quick dash to the store saved the day ( photo camera , video lights, underwater flashlight. rechargeable cells ? good luck. I've been on islands where power goes out regularly. Standard cells are easy to get. but you have to inspect the packaging. many have already leaked in the package while waiting on the shelf waiting to be sold.

When do you need a flashlight ? when it's dark and regular lights are not working/ avaialble ( power out , fuse blown , whatever reason)
What happens when you need a flashlight ? it doesn't work. Batteries empty and/or leaked. find batteries in the dark , try to pry out the leaked ones in the flashlight , clean the conatcts, hope the fresh pack has not leaked in the blister and try to get the thing working.

Everyone knows the frustration.

Batteries should not leak.

[free_electron]

How often does that happen compared to not having any spare alkaline batteries in the house?

PS: You're allowed to own two chargers.

when traveling remote : often. and carrying two chargers is extra weight , hassle and if the power on the island goes down : tough luck.
it always happens at the most inappropriate moment. I was stuck in a tropical storm and we lost power for 3 days. good luck charging your stuff. local store had alkalines and people were buying all of them.

and taking batteries on an aircraft is also a problem these days...
it's easier to go somewhere, buy the batteries local and done.

anyway, all these what-if's are moot.

We've had over 50 years of batteries and they still leak. Why can this not be solved ?
is it a manufacturing defect ? some leak form a given batch , others don't... mechanical problem in the sealing process ?
is it the way they are used ? way of discharge ?
is it a design defect ? wrong seal material used ?
is it a long term chemical reaction ? composition of the battery. zinc batteries are self destroying as the contents eat the casing ...
is it a contaminant ? some cells get contaminated and a chemical reaction triggers the potassium hydroxide release ?

what causes some cells to leak and others not ? do we even know that ?

[CatalinaWOW]

Some realism needs to be injected in this thread. 

Nothing is totally leak proof.  When alkalines came out they were advertised as leak proof.  Yes it was advertising hype, but the alkaline cells do go many times longer with out leaking than their predecessors.  And all batteries leak eventually.  I have had leaking NiCds and leaking NiMH.  So far haven't had leaking lithium chemistry, but have had explosive failure in them.  We all have to recognize that no battery chemistry is truly install and forget.  And there will be some penalty to pay for getting closer to that goal: price, energy density, discharge rate or something.  TANSTAAFL.

This failure is heavily influenced by operating conditions. My personal experience is that most alkalines will leak when discharged far below their usable storage and left alone.  Installing them in equipment that has any parasitic current draw and then throwing it in a drawer is a recipe for disaster.  Obviously any self discharge can lead to this and is a limit on shelf life.  As mentioned earlier in the thread temperature, temperature rate of change, relative humidity and other things may also contribute to leaking.

There are obviously things related to manufacturer, manufacturing plant or possibly batch.  Until recently I had never encountered leakage with unused cells.  But now have two cases, both with multiple cells leaking.  I buy these cells in large packages (24-40 cells) due to the major discount.  The packages involved had been stored for a period not less than three years, and not more than six.  One was Duracell, the other Kirkland (the Costco house brand, actual manufacturer unknown).  Interestingly packages of Harbor Freight chinesium batteries of similar vintage haven't leaked yet.

[David Hess]

One of the big advantages advertised for alkaline cells over carbon-zinc cells when they initially became available was not leaking.

and they have been spreading that lie ever since...

I am not sure it was a lie initially.  This subject has come up in the forum before; the tentative consensus was that small amounts of mercury were added to alkaline cells to somehow prevent leakage, and after it was removed, the cells leaked but the advertising did not change.

[Fungus]

It'd be a pretty poor cork seal if it lets the wine out of the bottle..

If the wine has to vent gases then it can't be a perfect seal.

[JustMeHere]

My thoughts are: what will damage the seal.
1) Thermal expansion and contraction cycles.  The two metals move different ways and work the seal loose.
2) Physical damage.  Dropping the remote would also damage the seal.

[golden_labels]

euh. like , not release potassium hydroxide or anything else ? Isn't that what a seal does : keep stuff inside the containment vessel?

I believe that, at this point, it’s clear that explaining how an alkaline battery works is necessary. I avoided that so far, as chemistry is not my thing, but it seems unavoidable now.

Alkaline battery operation is described on Wikipedia and I will just sum it up. Zinc reacts with manganese dioxide, with potassium hydroxide acting as the electrolyte. Potassium hydroxide is dissolved in water, forming K⁺ and OH^- ions, and the negative ions participate in the reaction. Theoretically the reaction is perfectly balanced.

Reality is, however, not perfect. Reactions do not happen instantenously, molecules are not everywhere in perfect proportions all the time and the entire process does not happen in a vacuum away from any other substance. We have positive potassium ions dissolved in water. Potassium loves reacting with water and that’s a very violent relationship. While in an alkaline battery the raction is not as impressive as what you get by throwing alkali metals into water, but it still happens — slowly, over time. And the reaction is: 2K⁺ + 2H₂O → 2KOH + H₂. Do you see the second product? That is hydrogen, which slowly accumulates in the battery, increasing pressure.

If you have a perfectly sealed container and pressure rises inside that container, do you know what happens? Kaboom. Do you want kaboom that spreads a strong base, a mild neurotoxin, and a gas, which mixed with oxygen in air will happily explode on any source of ignition? I believe not. That would deal much more damage not only your devices, but also you. So alkaline batteries have a seal at the bottom, which is expected to let pressure out safely. The battery still spills its guts, but only just a bit and in relatively peaceful manner.

The problem is not the seal. The problem is chemistry of alkaline batteries. It’s a problem inherent to their operation.

[CatalinaWOW]

euh. like , not release potassium hydroxide or anything else ? Isn't that what a seal does : keep stuff inside the containment vessel?

I believe that, at this point, it’s clear that explaining how an alkaline battery works is necessary. I avoided that so far, as chemistry is not my thing, but it seems unavoidable now.

Alkaline battery operation is described on Wikipedia and I will just sum it up. Zinc reacts with manganese dioxide, with potassium hydroxide acting as the electrolyte. Potassium hydroxide is dissolved in water, forming K⁺ and OH^- ions, and the negative ions participate in the reaction. Theoretically the reaction is perfectly balanced.

Reality is, however, not perfect. Reactions do not happen instantenously, molecules are not everywhere in perfect proportions all the time and the entire process does not happen in a vacuum away from any other substance. We have positive potassium ions dissolved in water. Potassium loves reacting with water and that’s a very violent relationship. While in an alkaline battery the raction is not as impressive as what you get by throwing alkali metals into water, but it still happens — slowly, over time. And the reaction is: 2K⁺ + 2H₂O → 2KOH + H₂. Do you see the second product? That is hydrogen, which slowly accumulates in the battery, increasing pressure.

If you have a perfectly sealed container and pressure rises inside that container, do you know what happens? Kaboom. Do you want kaboom that spreads a strong base, a mild neurotoxin, and a gas, which mixed with oxygen in air will happily explode on any source of ignition? I believe not. That would deal much more damage not only your devices, but also you. So alkaline batteries have a seal at the bottom, which is expected to let pressure out safely. The battery still spills its guts, but only just a bit and in relatively peaceful manner.

The problem is not the seal. The problem is chemistry of alkaline batteries. It’s a problem inherent to their operation.

All correct.  And a vent could be engineered that would tend to pass the H₂ without passing the other materials.  Not perfectly separating them, since there is no such thing as perfection, but reducing the amount of undesired stuff released from the case.  But it would undoubtedly occupy volume that is currently dedicated to battery capacity, or add cost or reduce safety margin or perhaps all of the above plus some other unwanted consequences.