Author Topic: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN  (Read 10770 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« on: February 17, 2023, 12:25:04 am »
The most amazing feature of the new Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope was surprising!
Teardown time.

 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2023, 10:46:27 pm »
Nice video Dave.
Yeah the metal handle was the first I´ve recognized after unpacking the scope.
It´s 1:1 the same as on the Lecroy HDO6034A, very nice.
The mains frequency syncboard got two names on it, siglent and teledyne lecroy..
The building quality in general is very good - Will a testing video follow ?
Then what the name changing of the rigol concerns:
Lecroy got a HDO4000 series for years, maybe therefore they´ve changed it to DHO.

Offline 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2023, 09:19:37 am »
Nice teardown.
When I got it, I was also pleasantly surprised by how nice and solid it felt.
And, yeah, the handle is nice touch.
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2023, 12:52:21 pm »
Then what the name changing of the rigol concerns:
Lecroy got a HDO4000 series for years, maybe therefore they´ve changed it to DHO.

Yeah, well, not wanting to get sued may have something to do with it: https://trademarks.justia.com/856/77/hdo-85677228.html

I am utterly perplexed how they could have missed that.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2023, 03:10:11 pm »
2 points.
Seperate AWG PCB has been previously used in early SDS1002X models as an option and later in all models when the range became X+
This is a 500 MHz design not 350 MHz.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2023, 05:15:46 pm »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
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Offline LooseJunkHater

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2023, 07:47:37 pm »
Made a separate post about this product (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/siglent-sds2000x-hd-teardown-hackable-arbituary-waveform-generator/new/#new), but what's the likelihood of being able to source the arbitrary waveform generator PCB and hack it so the whole scope isn't needed to use it? Seems like it may only be controlled via USB 2.0 protocol or similar based on the 5 wire connection?
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2023, 08:03:51 pm »
Made a separate post about this product (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/siglent-sds2000x-hd-teardown-hackable-arbituary-waveform-generator/new/#new), but what's the likelihood of being able to source the arbitrary waveform generator PCB and hack it so the whole scope isn't needed to use it? Seems like it may only be controlled via USB 2.0 protocol or similar based on the 5 wire connection?
See  here on P13 for its capabilities:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_07_20/SDS2000X%20HD_Datasheet_EN01A.pdf

It's an optional device completely managed by the scope UI which controls its countdown from 30 free trial uses and any permanent licensing.
Further the UI is quite complex with numerous input fields that can even be controlled with a mouse scrollwheel.

Lastly, it's an inbuilt AWG and never are inbuilts renown for their drive capability.
Instead my recommendation would be to buy a standalone AWG in the first place of which today there are plenty in the marketplace with better output drive and even cheaper than the €289 SDG810
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Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2023, 08:12:38 pm »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Why ?
This one folds away flush so very unlikely to ever get damaged.  :-//

These scopes are 4kg so are portable which will invite getting carried about as they are a nice scope to use and are supplied with a nice wireless mouse.

Now Dave has done his teardown he really needs to get on with using it.  :horse:
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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2023, 07:16:25 am »
All the shielding appears to be aluminum too.

No Siglent rust anymore, it seems they lost their signature feature.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2023, 08:30:31 am »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Why ?
This one folds away flush so very unlikely to ever get damaged.  :-//

These scopes are 4kg so are portable which will invite getting carried about as they are a nice scope to use and are supplied with a nice wireless mouse.

Now Dave has done his teardown he really needs to get on with using it.  :horse:

Because cast metals are more likely to have micro-fractures that aren't apparent (unless you x-ray or ultrasonically probe them, not likely for this application) but will gradually worsen over time until one day *ping*, *crunch*, your $5k scope is on the floor and now a parallelogram instead of a square.

EDIT: Additionally, the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope, in the form of very small filings. Granted, this will be in miniscule quantities, but it's attention to detail that makes the difference between a good product and a great one.

They've likely gone for die-cast zinc or ally over glass-filled nylon for the reduced maintenance cost on the injection moulding machines; glass-filled nylon is notoriously hard on such equipment.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 08:35:39 am by AVGresponding »
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Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2023, 09:43:40 am »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Why ?
This one folds away flush so very unlikely to ever get damaged.  :-//

These scopes are 4kg so are portable which will invite getting carried about as they are a nice scope to use and are supplied with a nice wireless mouse.

Now Dave has done his teardown he really needs to get on with using it.  :horse:

Because cast metals are more likely to have micro-fractures that aren't apparent (unless you x-ray or ultrasonically probe them, not likely for this application) but will gradually worsen over time until one day *ping*, *crunch*, your $5k scope is on the floor and now a parallelogram instead of a square.

So best advice would be not to even buy an engine that was built with cast metals ?
Good luck even finding one that was milled from billet.
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Offline tooki

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2023, 05:44:49 pm »
Because cast metals are more likely to have micro-fractures that aren't apparent (unless you x-ray or ultrasonically probe them, not likely for this application) but will gradually worsen over time until one day *ping*, *crunch*, your $5k scope is on the floor and now a parallelogram instead of a square.

EDIT: Additionally, the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope, in the form of very small filings. Granted, this will be in miniscule quantities, but it's attention to detail that makes the difference between a good product and a great one.

They've likely gone for die-cast zinc or ally over glass-filled nylon for the reduced maintenance cost on the injection moulding machines; glass-filled nylon is notoriously hard on such equipment.

I’m sorry, but are you genuinely unaware how unhinged that all sounds?

Die-cast metal is used for countless products, almost always ones of above-average quality. From tripod castings, to KitchenAid mixers, to car engines, to all manner of electrical motor mounts, etc., to BBQs (like my Weber Q series, which is cast aluminum, with cast iron grills), to practically all high end camera bodies, field-use broadcast audio/video gear (stuff designed to take a spill and keep on working)… the list goes on and on!

Besides, what makes you think injection-molded plastic can’t have fractures or other faults?

In the end, regardless of the type of material chosen, the quality of the resulting product is determined by the quality of the raw materials, the care and skill with which it is processed, and the culture of quality control and improvement within the company.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2023, 05:46:48 pm »
So best advice would be not to even buy an engine that was built with cast metals ?
Good luck even finding one that was milled from billet.
Do they even exist? I could see that being done for prototype parts during development, or maybe for one-off customs for racing or something, but not for mass production.
 

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2023, 05:50:18 pm »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Those who like metal handles are probably in warm countries. Grabbing a metal handle in the freezing cold is no fun.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2023, 06:25:00 pm »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Those who like metal handles are probably in warm countries. Grabbing a metal handle in the freezing cold is no fun.
This is a scope that is supposed to be used at room temperature..
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2023, 08:11:08 pm »
 ;D

Quote
the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2023, 04:31:10 pm »
;D

Quote
the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..
Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2023, 05:31:12 pm »
;D

Quote
the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..
Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..
Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.
And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.

For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2023, 06:43:31 pm »
Because cast metals are more likely to have micro-fractures that aren't apparent (unless you x-ray or ultrasonically probe them, not likely for this application) but will gradually worsen over time until one day *ping*, *crunch*, your $5k scope is on the floor and now a parallelogram instead of a square.

EDIT: Additionally, the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope, in the form of very small filings. Granted, this will be in miniscule quantities, but it's attention to detail that makes the difference between a good product and a great one.

They've likely gone for die-cast zinc or ally over glass-filled nylon for the reduced maintenance cost on the injection moulding machines; glass-filled nylon is notoriously hard on such equipment.

I’m sorry, but are you genuinely unaware how unhinged that all sounds?

Before I rebut your points, one by one, I'll remind you that engineers think about how things will fail.


Die-cast metal is used for countless products, almost always ones of above-average quality. From tripod castings, to KitchenAid mixers, to car engines, to all manner of electrical motor mounts, etc., to BBQs (like my Weber Q series, which is cast aluminum, with cast iron grills), to practically all high end camera bodies, field-use broadcast audio/video gear (stuff designed to take a spill and keep on working)… the list goes on and on!

Partly true, but completely irrelevant to the context. The highest quality ones will invariably be machined rather than cast, either from billet or forged blanks. In any case, heavy duty applications are pretty chunky, way more so than the weak point here, namely the handle pins. They will be exposed to shear forces when the scope is being carried; the examples you give are mostly exposed to impact (compression) forces, where the material is quite a bit stronger.
Cast metals, zinc and aluminium in particular, have quite low elasticity. This means plastic deformation happens earlier, and on top of this they are much more brittle than nylon. Fractures in die-cast metals can to be quite hard to spot, as they tend to fail elastically initially, with the crack being almost invisible off load, and will fail catastrophically (in context this just means the part breaks into two or more pieces) as repeated elastic loadings cause work-hardening/further embrittlement. Flaws in this particular case will be impossible to spot; once the part is in service, the only way to see the relevant area of it is to disassemble the scope.




Besides, what makes you think injection-molded plastic can’t have fractures or other faults?

Of course they can, did I claim otherwise? They are much more likely to fail plastically, however. In practice this means there will be increasingly noticeable deformation long before catastrophic failure.


In the end, regardless of the type of material chosen, the quality of the resulting product is determined by the quality of the raw materials, the care and skill with which it is processed, and the culture of quality control and improvement within the company.

Naturally. I merely pointed out that the failure modes of glass-filled nylon make it a better choice in this instance (imo).

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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2023, 07:11:13 pm »
You guys liked the cast zinc/aluminium handle? I'd much rather have a glass-filled nylon one   :-//
Those who like metal handles are probably in warm countries. Grabbing a metal handle in the freezing cold is no fun.

Perhaps this could be a marketing point... "Metal handle to indicate whether ambient temperature has been reached."



;D

Quote
the friction between the handle pins and the tab sockets will cause some of the metal of the handle to wear and drop into the scope

How often do you move the scope in such manner ?
It must be a permanent moving to create such scenario..
Some people use instruments in mobile situations every day. They aren't all in nice comfy labs. That's when the cold metal handle can bite.

Again, this (and most of the scopes out there) is not instrument meant for those people..
Nor extreme temperature range, nor mil grade rugged nor portable.
And handle holders are outside the shield.. If there are going to be metal shavings, they are on the outside from electronics.

For portable rugged use, Siglent has it's version of Scope meter, including isolated channels.. expanded temperature range, IP51, rubberized...

It would generate some each time you moved it. Granted, they would be very small, but in an instrument this sensitive, it wouldn't take much to derange the readings. You can clearly see at 3:50 that there are holes where the tabs penetrate the shield, and in the shield. It is clearly not sealed from particles of this size.
Additionally you can see that the pins don't rotate in the tab sockets at their strongest point; they have to pass through the plastic of the outer case first, meaning there's additional complexity to the load vector. It's not a simple shear as I first thought, but would be most likely crack at the top of the pin where it meets the handle body, and peel under tension. This could be greatly mitigated by having a stepped pin, with a greater diameter as it passes through the plastic case.
NB: This isn't a likely failure from a perfect part, but from a casting that has an internal flaw that wouldn't be noticed under normal QC.




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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2023, 09:21:45 pm »
Those handles will be spin cast, which will pretty much guarantee they do not have porosity or fractures in them, and will be uniform as well. As they likely are reusing a mould and line they already have experience on, not too much issue with a metal handle, and it is going to be less likely to fail than a glass filled nylon, and die life will, despite running a lot hotter, be better as well, simply from the stress only coming once cooled, and no wear from an abrasive fluid flowing under pressure.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2023, 12:00:32 am »
I’m sorry, but are you genuinely unaware how unhinged that all sounds?

Before I rebut your points, one by one, I'll remind you that engineers think about how things will fail.
Part of engineering is knowing how to put risk into perspective. This is a couple of thousand $ scope, not a piece of life-support equipment or spacecraft part.

Die-cast metal is used for countless products, almost always ones of above-average quality. From tripod castings, to KitchenAid mixers, to car engines, to all manner of electrical motor mounts, etc., to BBQs (like my Weber Q series, which is cast aluminum, with cast iron grills), to practically all high end camera bodies, field-use broadcast audio/video gear (stuff designed to take a spill and keep on working)… the list goes on and on!

Partly true, but completely irrelevant to the context. The highest quality ones will invariably be machined rather than cast, either from billet or forged blanks. In any case, heavy duty applications are pretty chunky, way more so than the weak point here, namely the handle pins. They will be exposed to shear forces when the scope is being carried; the examples you give are mostly exposed to impact (compression) forces, where the material is quite a bit stronger.

I'm sorry, but just... no. The examples I listed are ones where the best products use die-cast parts. Every pro-level photo camera uses a die-cast frame. (The only pro cameras I know of that use milled billets are the RED cinema cameras, which are likely produced in a fraction of the volume of Canon, Nikon, and Sony cameras, all of which use die-cast bodies.)

The best still photo camera tripods are from Manfrotto, Gitzo, etc., and they're all die-cast. The standard in video tripods is Vinten, and they're... die-cast.

There's no better stand mixer than KitchenAid, and they are die-cast. (And so are the competitors.)

Etc etc etc.

So your claim that the best products are "invariably" (your word!) made of billet or forged blanks is, plain and simply, false.



Edit: And just to be clear: I am not a machinist or metallurgist. I am, however, familiar with enough best-in-class products that ALL use die-cast bodies to know that your blanket statement cannot, and thus is not, true.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:02:04 am by tooki »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2023, 08:10:13 am »
It is a bit strange that so much of the discussion is about the handle.  The construction with 2 identical parts is a nice design. However the combination of cast zinc and aluminum is not great. Ideally there would be a plastics bushing of some kind to reduce wear. Anyway it already is over-engeniered as is.

On my first impression I was missing additional contracts to supprat an active probe - though usually mainly a point for higher BW.
An active probe may still be a point for really low noise, if you can't use a passive 1:1 probe.

There quite a lot of chips on the PCB - so it does not look like build to a price, more like reusing part of older designs to get a product out fast - which makes absolute sense.
 
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Offline temperance

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Re: EEVblog 1530 - Siglent SDS2000X HD 12 Bit Oscilloscope TEARDOWN
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2023, 12:05:07 pm »
Indeed, I bought this box because of the handle which I wanted to reuse to repair the door handle on my car. Later on this machine turned out to be a low noise scope. After repairing the car, I can confirm the scope works fine fine without the handle.
 


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