EEVblog 1637- Solar Freakin Space Mirrors - Reflect Orbital DEBUNKED

[Xena E]

Speaking generally, if an organisation is corrupt, then it's time to get out: toeing the line within an organisation is all very well if it doesn't harm your health, integrity, or liberty. A lot of people find themselves on the wrong side of the law by 'toeing the line'.

You must have had the kind of truly blessed life that few of us have been able to enjoy. It must be fantastic. Most of us spend a huge amount to effort skirting around the bad stuff, trying to pay the bills.

No. I've just managed to mostly make good career choices I suppose, on the occasion I'd not been able to resolve a problem with corporate BS and office archery I just found myself another job.

It's only happened once, but what occurred was going to have me taking bame and sucking the mop for some shit that was caused by an unproductive member of another department. I got out before that happened it was their loss ultimately.

As for judging people then I'll repeat "by association" they're happy to do the publicity.

Are you in a position to say that the university press release was inaccurate? If so why give it such a new science spin? The money was in the bag, promoting it just makes themselves look like complete mutts.

No, but I've seen people have to put up with so much crap in order to pay the bills I don't jump to judge people, and am loath to rely purely on third parties for information.

Very noble I'm sure. And if that's what a person is prepared to do for a quiet life it's up to them, but I've seen too many instances of people who enjoy being a bosses patsy, and pissing on others instead of doing real work. "To pay the bills".

I just wish I could withhold income tax based on money that is wasted on and defrauded by this kind of wankery.

Ah, so you are forced to put up with a lot of crap like the rest of us, in order to live in relative peace. You know you can avoid paying tax. There are consequences, but its possible.

I'm not sure what your point is, governments are prepared to waste money because it isn't theirs, and fraudsters are always on the lookout for free cash. Then I'm told that it's some twat putting up with crap from the man so he can pay his bills ... fuck that.

Relative peace! you hit a nerve there! I pay tax but what for? My house gets broken into and I get threatened with a knife by the intruder just to have police tell me they can't attend after the event! but can get me some advice on household security and counselling, and they will give me a crime number, I have the fucking blokes face on security camera, and I'm told it's inadmissible evidence, and could I prove I was threatened with a  knife?

Any one tells me I pay tax to live in relative peace are fucked in the head.

Sorry sweetie, you're probably a very nice person, I dont know you and I'm sorry I've hit a nerve, but you're talking out of your arse.

Best regards
X

[SiliconWizard]

That's just the beginning, soon enough most public services, including the police, will be accessible only via chatbots that will eventually connect you with a real police officer only if the bot decides that your query requires that. By the time you've fought with the chatbot enough to drive you crazy, you'll need to contact mental health services, and it will be a chatbot too.

And yes, all that still paid with your tax money.

"I'm sorry Daveeee"

[coppice]

Relative peace! you hit a nerve there! I pay tax but what for? My house gets broken into and I get threatened with a knife by the intruder just to have police tell me they can't attend after the event! but can get me some advice on household security and counselling, and they will give me a crime number, I have the fucking blokes face on security camera, and I'm told it's inadmissible evidence, and could I prove I was threatened with a  knife?

Any one tells me I pay tax to live in relative peace are fucked in the head.

Sorry sweetie, you're probably a very nice person, I dont know you and I'm sorry I've hit a nerve, but you're talking out of your arse.

Best regards
X

The way the UK police are going we'll be back to vigilantes soon. You should have told the police he said some nasty words to you. They take action over that.

[.RC.]

. You should have told the police he said some nasty words to you. They take action over that.

Tell them they did not respect your pronouns.   They would have senior scotland yard and interpol detectives on the case before lunch. Well that is provided they were only identify as anglo's committing the crime.

[max_torque]

VerstusSolis:
They have already managed to gain funding of £353,000 from the British Government because of their partnership with Bristol University.
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2023/june/space-solar-project.html

Comeon! WTF! They've convinced a fucking University that some cartoon frigging spaceship can provide 'energy security'.

What are these shitheads at Bristol U smoking, what convinced them it was a good idea? Just because they got some Morgan Freeman soundalike to do their cartoon voice over maybe 

(Attachment Link)

er, i'm not sure if you realise how .gov "future tech" funding works in the uk!  It absolutely does not have to be in any way  viable, practical and tbh, mostly isn't either. It's basically a way for commerical and educational organisations to get some money!  Bristol partners with a commerical firm, they get funding.  Pretty much that simple. I know it's b***cks, they know it's b****cks, hell, mostly even the government dept giving out the money knows it's b***cks, but they don't care. The money is there, to be spent in the UK, paying peoples salaries, and sometimes, very rarely, there might be a spin off or other idea that is commercially viable, but critically the grant funding is not dependant nor expectant on that outcome.......

[EEVblog]

The founder Ben has finally replied to me and offered to show me internal documents so I can help critique their numbers. (the answer is of course no)
He also said he'd quit immediately if he is wrong, but is sure he's right.

He is adament that I am obsolutely wrong on this. He linekd in research from ESA and others:
https://nebula.esa.int/content/pre-phase-system-study-commercial-scale-space-based-solar-power-sbsp-system-terrestrial
https://www.reflectorbital.com/literature
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626192200527X

I told him that capture area is capture area, the end.

[coppercone2]

The Znamya 2 was a 20-metre wide space solar mirror. Znamya-2 was launched aboard Progress M-15 from Baikonur on 27 October 1992. After visiting the EO-12 crew aboard the Mir space station the Progress T-15 then undocked and deployed the reflector from the end of the Russian Progress spacecraft on 4 February 1993, next to the Russian Mir space station. The mirror deployed successfully, and, when illuminated, produced a 5 km wide bright spot, which traversed Europe from southern France to western Russia at a speed of 8 km/s.[2] The bright spot had a luminosity equivalent to approximately that of a full moon.[3] Although clouds covered much of Europe that morning, a few ground observers reported seeing a flash of light as the beam swept by.[4]


I think that might be more useful then arguing about equation. The sun is 400,000 times brighter then a full moon. So I think that means if you had 400k of these units, they could provide sunlight to a 5km area

given that its a soviet object (might be half assed), I think a safe figure is 300,000 units

not economical unless you  can string it out like hanging bedsheets out of a runabout




But I am starting to think that renting these out to illuminate towns at night might be a good idea (for a place like luxemburg), if they want to buy the moon, sell them the moon. Or a kinda promotional thing for something like high end camp grounds, then you can be guaranteed you will have a moon night, or maintaining illumination on harbors and stuff for cheaper security or just generally making something like a high end marina more pleasant.

[EEVblog]

He just emailed me another two times trying to convince me to imagine 10's of thousands of larger mirrors, booking hundreds of Starship launcher per year.
I can image it, and it's delusional.

[Xena E]

He just emailed me another two times trying to convince me to imagine 10's of thousands of larger mirrors, booking hundreds of Starship launcher per year.
I can image it, and it's delusional.

Sounds like someone who is trying to attach themselves to some credibility.

X

[SiliconWizard]

He just emailed me another two times trying to convince me to imagine 10's of thousands of larger mirrors, booking hundreds of Starship launcher per year.
I can image it, and it's delusional.

It's not just delusional; that very thought is terrifying.

[EEVblog]

He just emailed me another two times trying to convince me to imagine 10's of thousands of larger mirrors, booking hundreds of Starship launcher per year.
I can image it, and it's delusional.

Sounds like someone who is trying to attach themselves to some credibility.

I don't think so. He is in fact a fan that's been watching for over a decade, and in his first email he mentioned that he hoped that if he ever made it into a video one day it would be the "exact opposite of solar freakin’ roadways".
He's bummed that he and his idea became the focus of a debunking video, and I guess he's trying to correct that disappointment by trying to convince me otherwise.

[nctnico]

The founder Ben has finally replied to me and offered to show me internal documents so I can help critique their numbers. (the answer is of course no)
He also said he'd quit immediately if he is wrong, but is sure he's right.

He is adament that I am obsolutely wrong on this. He linekd in research from ESA and others:
https://nebula.esa.int/content/pre-phase-system-study-commercial-scale-space-based-solar-power-sbsp-system-terrestrial
https://www.reflectorbital.com/literature
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626192200527X

I told him that capture area is capture area, the end.

I agree with you and Ben should quit immediately. Better to avoid becoming the next 'Holmes'. I didn't watch the entire video though. Did you venture into analysing the energy needed to launch a rocket to bring a satellite in orbit versus energy harvested? Probably not 

The error in their reasoning is likely that they are sending energy down which can not be lost but they don't account for conversion losses combined with the large area the light is spread over. Receiving 5mW does nothing for a solar panel. Leakage currents in the panel itself and the inverter are probably 'consuming' more power.

[coppice]

I can't help but feel these mirror concepts will reflect badly on their proponents.

[thm_w]

I agree with you and Ben should quit immediately. Better to avoid becoming the next 'Holmes'. I didn't watch the entire video though. Did you venture into analysing the energy needed to launch a rocket to bring a satellite in orbit versus energy harvested? Probably not 

The cost of the launch is at 11:20. 150k or down to 30k, and claiming to make 175k revenue off that one launch, per year.

If the finances made sense, then the environmental impact could be considered. But there is no need when this 175k claim was disputed by Dave.

[nctnico]

I agree with you and Ben should quit immediately. Better to avoid becoming the next 'Holmes'. I didn't watch the entire video though. Did you venture into analysing the energy needed to launch a rocket to bring a satellite in orbit versus energy harvested? Probably not 

The cost of the launch is at 11:20. 150k or down to 30k, and claiming to make 175k revenue off that one launch, per year.

If the finances made sense, then the environmental impact could be considered. But there is no need when this 175k claim was disputed by Dave.

True. Even if they would manage to get 50kW of useful energy to the ground 24/7, their projected (annual) revenue is 10 times higher than realistic. They probably calculated from what households are paying for electricity per kWh instead of what a large solar farm is receiving per kWh.

[mikerj]

The founder Ben has finally replied to me and offered to show me internal documents so I can help critique their numbers. (the answer is of course no)
He also said he'd quit immediately if he is wrong, but is sure he's right.

He is adament that I am obsolutely wrong on this. He linekd in research from ESA and others:
https://nebula.esa.int/content/pre-phase-system-study-commercial-scale-space-based-solar-power-sbsp-system-terrestrial

The final report from Esa has a small list of the most important requirements in section 3.1, one of which is:

The minimum power density to activate the cells should higher than 200W/m2
(sic)

Perhaps Ben could show how he intends to achieve this with the proposed mirror area?

[mikerj]

The money is there, to be spent in the UK, paying peoples salaries, and sometimes, very rarely, there might be a spin off or other idea that is commercially viable, but critically the grant funding is not dependant nor expectant on that outcome.......

An reputational damage doesn't matter a bit, provided the £££ keep flowing.

[EEVblog]

The founder Ben has finally replied to me and offered to show me internal documents so I can help critique their numbers. (the answer is of course no)
He also said he'd quit immediately if he is wrong, but is sure he's right.

He is adament that I am obsolutely wrong on this. He linekd in research from ESA and others:
https://nebula.esa.int/content/pre-phase-system-study-commercial-scale-space-based-solar-power-sbsp-system-terrestrial

The final report from Esa has a small list of the most important requirements in section 3.1, one of which is:

The minimum power density to activate the cells should higher than 200W/m2
(sic)

Perhaps Ben could show how he intends to achieve this with the proposed mirror area?

In our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

[nctnico]

Ben should join this thread and post his calculations on how he wants to achieve a decent power per surface area and the costs involved. IIRC another problem is that space in low earth orbit starts to become really crowded. They might be running out of space....

[SiliconWizard]

In our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

Not to be rude, but he may need some medication.

[coppice]

In our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

If his answer to every point made is more mirrors, I think that reflects very badly on him.

[EEVblog]

In our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

If his answer to every point made is more mirrors, I think that reflects very badly on him.

To be fair, it's the only answer. There is no magical way you can beat cature area, and he readily admits this.

[coppice]

In our private correspondance the answer is always, more mirrors, bigger mirrors, thousands of them, Starship makes it cheap.

If his answer to every point made is more mirrors, I think that reflects very badly on him.

To be fair, it's the only answer. There is no magical way you can beat cature area, and he readily admits this.

"We lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume."  comes to mind. 

[Xena E]

The only way to prove extraordinary claims is to provide unequivocal proof. Self generated citation of engineering practicalities, costs and profitability isn't proof.

This one just doesn't stack up, either in engineering or financial viability.

Imagine trying to put this into space:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

This isn’t personal:
It's delusional, or fraudulent, they are the only two options.

I'm sure Ben is clever enough to make a real contribution to the field without reaching for the stars.

X

[coppice]

The only way to prove extraordinary claims is to provide unequivocal proof. Self generated citation of engineering practicalities, costs and profitability isn't proof.

This one just doesn't stack up, either in engineering or financial viability.

Imagine trying to put this into space:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility

This isn’t personal:
It's delusional, or fraudulent, they are the only two options.

I'm sure Ben is clever enough to make a real contribution to the field without reaching for the stars.

X

To be fair to the solar concentrator projects, I think their time has just passed. They started with experimental systems decades ago, when PV panels were not getting very far. They continued when PV panels were getting better, on the basis that many of the concentrator designs included enough thermal storage to operate through the night, and were in desert areas where the daytime is fairly predictable. On this basis they still had some merit. Now, even with storage, their costs are out of line with the alternatives. I believe IvanPah was a design floating around from a time when it might have made some sense as an experimental system, but only got funded when its window of opportunity had passed. This is quite common with many technologies. I don't know how people finally get suckered into providing funding just as the window is starting to close, but I can think of many cases of this happening.