Author Topic: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!  (Read 7410 times)

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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2023, 03:34:35 am »
Hehe. That's because it's something that shouldn't be looked at with our eyes and brains of rational, mere mortals.
It's just a form of sacrifice to the climate change god. The more expensive and absurd the sacrifice, the better it should please Him.
 :popcorn:
 
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Offline .RC.

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2023, 06:42:48 am »
The disheartening thing these days is it seems the entire world or at least the first world, has been pervaded by these leaders that have grabbed onto the Peter Principal with both hands and said, "Yes, that is for me".

Do you blame the company/people that spun the tale or solar roadways, airways, railways, seaways, footpathways, spaceways? Or windfarms or green hydrogen or lets run an electrical extension cord from Australia to Singapore or whatever fantasy feel good enterprise they think they can use an an engine to suck off that sweet free taxpayer money.

Well I don't in that we should be smart enough to see through these grifters and villians that cloak themselves in good deeds.  There are con artists everywhere all looking to take your wealth and at the moment they can see the weakness as the educated* champagne socialist wanker typical inner city/leafy suburb types with government protected careers and influence using that power and influence to get government to get lots of money taken off the middle and lower classes that do real work and give it to these grifters so the almond latte sipping champagne socialists can all touch each over over about much they are saving the world and stopping climate change as they board the jet for the annual overseas luxury holiday. 

After all, it was SFA of their money getting pissed up against the wall, and they can afford it.

Ok I will go back to the padded room now.


*educated in some bullshit social arena that relies on language skills like law, arts, mental health etc rather than mathematics, engineering or physical sciences.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 06:44:30 am by .RC. »
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2023, 07:23:04 am »
One of the most senior advisors of the Dutch government said yesterday (and some 10 years along): stop with a focus on management and political sensitivity: please get competent professionals in place. And always keep a good look at the *execution* of policies, not the formulation of policies.

I think they won't listen.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 06:16:03 pm by RAPo »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2023, 05:54:15 pm »
Let's BUST the new Platio Solar Pavement installation in the Netherlands using thier OWN production data on launch day! LOL
Did you carefully translate the Dutch video? I guess not because in there the man clearly states to put solar panels on roofs first. But once the roofs are full, you need ways to collect more solar energy and that is exactly what this setup is about: have a plan ready at the moment the roofs are full. And that plan will be necessary quickly in the NL because the number of roofs that have solar panels increases rapidly. Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 06:02:47 pm by nctnico »
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2023, 06:12:10 pm »
Did you carefully translate the Dutch video? I guess not because in there the man clearly states to put solar panels on roofs first. But once the roofs are full, you need ways to collect more solar energy and that is exactly what this setup is about: have a plan ready at the moment the roofs are full. And that plan will be necessary quickly in the NL because the number of roofs that have solar panels increases rapidly. Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.

 ::)

So build more roofs to put them on, such as covered patios, carports, garden sheds, covered walkways, etc Then put them on the tops of walls and fences, then put them on the sides of buildings, on the sides of fences, on the curbs, on top of mailboxes, on to of every other structure there is. Literally every single other option is better than one which involves ground surfaces that are used for other purposes and is demonstrably superior. The roofs are nowhere near full, not even close. it's absolutely laughable to pretend that running out of elevated surfaces is an issue. I've just had a poke around the Netherlands on Google maps and I see thousands and thousands and thousands of bare roofs all over the country. I only managed to spot a few that already had solar installed. You are at LEAST 50 years from having to worry about running out of roofs, probably much more than that, and I didn't even start to look at places where elevated panels could be installed to provide shade.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2023, 06:28:52 pm »
Did you carefully translate the Dutch video? I guess not because in there the man clearly states to put solar panels on roofs first. But once the roofs are full, you need ways to collect more solar energy and that is exactly what this setup is about: have a plan ready at the moment the roofs are full. And that plan will be necessary quickly in the NL because the number of roofs that have solar panels increases rapidly. Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.

 ::)

So build more roofs to put them on, such as covered patios, carports, garden sheds, covered walkways, etc Then put them on the tops of walls and fences, then put them on the sides of buildings, on the sides of fences, on the curbs, on top of mailboxes, on to of every other structure there is. Literally every single other option is better than one which involves ground surfaces that are used for other purposes and is demonstrably superior. The roofs are nowhere near full, not even close. it's absolutely laughable to pretend that running out of elevated surfaces is an issue. I've just had a poke around the Netherlands on Google maps and I see thousands and thousands and thousands of bare roofs all over the country. I only managed to spot a few that already had solar installed. You are at LEAST 50 years from having to worry about running out of roofs, probably much more than that, and I didn't even start to look at places where elevated panels could be installed to provide shade.
Nope. About 15% to 20% of suitable roofs is already covered in the NL. The energy crisis has given the amount of solar installation a huge boost. Google maps is way behind with updating the images. Just in the street I live in there is a van from a solar installer about every week. Google's images for my my area are about 10 years old.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 06:30:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2023, 07:50:42 pm »
Once roofs are full, we can always shove the remaining panels up our asses.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2023, 09:30:15 pm »
If 20% of roofs are covered, it might be what 15 years? before the remaining are full. At some point designing/thinking too far forward doesn't have much value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_Netherlands

Might be better to spend that research money on wind power or improving existing roof panel efficiency instead.
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Offline .RC.

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2023, 09:38:42 pm »
Have they not considered nuclear generated electricity?
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2023, 10:16:06 pm »
Have they not considered nuclear generated electricity?

They are planning to build two more, in addition to the existing one: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/netherlands.aspx
But thats 12 years away.
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Offline james_s

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2023, 12:25:04 am »
If 20% of roofs are covered, it might be what 15 years? before the remaining are full. At some point designing/thinking too far forward doesn't have much value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_Netherlands

Might be better to spend that research money on wind power or improving existing roof panel efficiency instead.

I'd wager it will be 20-40 years before all feasible roofs are covered, maybe more. There will be a lot of people that can't afford the financial outlay to get it installed, and for those building a patio out of solar panels is not going to solve that problem. I don't even understand why people are bothering to even think about the most impractical solar solution of all that have been seriously looked at, one that has been tried quite a few times now and failed spectacularly every time. Solar panels are expensive and they only work when sunlight falls on them so it is absolutely stupid to put them *under* anything. In every circumstance it's going to make sense to elevate the panels over something. Shade is nice, covered porch, covered carport, cover picnic area, covered walkway, there are millions of square feet in every developed nation where stuff like this could be built. Space will never be the limiting factor on a large scale.
 
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Offline .RC.

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2023, 01:06:17 am »

They are planning to build two more, in addition to the existing one: https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-g-n/netherlands.aspx
But thats 12 years away.

Well at least there is some intelligence in their government.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2023, 02:05:00 am »
I don't even understand why people are bothering to even think about the most impractical solar solution of all that have been seriously looked at, one that has been tried quite a few times now and failed spectacularly every time.

Politics, virtue signalling, and budgets.
Easier to get a budget for new "innovative" solution programs then it is to get money for boring old technology no one cares about any more.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2023, 02:08:26 am »
Did you carefully translate the Dutch video? I guess not because in there the man clearly states to put solar panels on roofs first. But once the roofs are full, you need ways to collect more solar energy and that is exactly what this setup is about: have a plan ready at the moment the roofs are full. And that plan will be necessary quickly in the NL because the number of roofs that have solar panels increases rapidly. Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.

 ::)

So build more roofs to put them on, such as covered patios, carports, garden sheds, covered walkways, etc Then put them on the tops of walls and fences, then put them on the sides of buildings, on the sides of fences, on the curbs, on top of mailboxes, on to of every other structure there is. Literally every single other option is better than one which involves ground surfaces that are used for other purposes and is demonstrably superior. The roofs are nowhere near full, not even close. it's absolutely laughable to pretend that running out of elevated surfaces is an issue. I've just had a poke around the Netherlands on Google maps and I see thousands and thousands and thousands of bare roofs all over the country. I only managed to spot a few that already had solar installed. You are at LEAST 50 years from having to worry about running out of roofs, probably much more than that, and I didn't even start to look at places where elevated panels could be installed to provide shade.
Nope. About 15% to 20% of suitable roofs is already covered in the NL. The energy crisis has given the amount of solar installation a huge boost. Google maps is way behind with updating the images. Just in the street I live in there is a van from a solar installer about every week. Google's images for my my area are about 10 years old.

Nope, James is right. It will be many many decades before every possible roof can be filled. We are talking homes, industrial, shops, schools, governmetn buildings etc.
And then you have parking lots and cycles paths were it's VASTLY better to elevate them to stick them on the ground. Dumbest idea ever, you should never have to resort to it.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2023, 02:10:54 am »
Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.

Bullshit. Anyone with any manufacturing and install experience knows that small tough solar panels like this will ALWAYS be an order of magnitude worse in bang-per-buck thna existing panel solutions. Not even taking into account longevity.
These will never be needed or desired on a mass scale, ever.
Good luck trying to convince anyone on the EEVblog forum of all places that solar roadways/pathways etc are a viable idea.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2023, 04:00:49 am »
The disheartening thing these days is it seems the entire world or at least the first world, has been pervaded by these leaders that have grabbed onto the Peter Principal with both hands and said, "Yes, that is for me".

Do you blame the company/people that spun the tale or solar roadways, airways, railways, seaways, footpathways, spaceways? Or windfarms or green hydrogen or lets run an electrical extension cord from Australia to Singapore or whatever fantasy feel good enterprise they think they can use an an engine to suck off that sweet free taxpayer money.

Well I don't in that we should be smart enough to see through these grifters and villians that cloak themselves in good deeds.  There are con artists everywhere all looking to take your wealth and at the moment they can see the weakness as the educated* champagne socialist wanker typical inner city/leafy suburb types with government protected careers and influence using that power and influence to get government to get lots of money taken off the middle and lower classes that do real work and give it to these grifters so the almond latte sipping champagne socialists can all touch each over over about much they are saving the world and stopping climate change as they board the jet for the annual overseas luxury holiday. 

After all, it was SFA of their money getting pissed up against the wall, and they can afford it.

Ok I will go back to the padded room now.


*educated in some bullshit social arena that relies on language skills like law, arts, mental health etc rather than mathematics, engineering or physical sciences.

The huge solar array in Oz with the "power cord" to Singapore was at least something that could have been done, if the very long underwater cable route didn't turn out to be impractical.
If they forgot Singapore & ran the cable down to the Eastern States who are always whingeing about running out of power, after being so dumb as to export all their LNG, it could have worked.

"Law, & Mental Health"  are hardly "soft options".

If "Arts" is just sort of "art appreciation" where they talk about it or criticise it , I would agree, but real Artists learn real stuff.

Before "Engineers" were a recognised profession, artists pioneered many of the mainstays of engineering, such as Casting very large objects (in their case, out of bronze), the use of pigments, working with stone, & a host of other things.
Artists also learn Perspective, Anatomy, the properties of light, & so on.

Many of these "airy fairy" things don't emerge from people with "govt protected careers", but from the much vaunted "Entrepeneurs" who can always find suckers to invest.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2023, 04:37:34 am »
The huge solar array in Oz with the "power cord" to Singapore was at least something that could have been done, if the very long underwater cable route didn't turn out to be impractical.

Sure about that?
I ran the ballpark numbers:


 
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Online nctnico

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2023, 02:21:31 pm »
Last but not least, this is a test installation with a product that isn't mass manufactured (yet) so any cost comparision is just noise.

Bullshit. Anyone with any manufacturing and install experience knows that small tough solar panels like this will ALWAYS be an order of magnitude worse in bang-per-buck thna existing panel solutions. Not even taking into account longevity.
These will never be needed or desired on a mass scale, ever.
Good luck trying to convince anyone on the EEVblog forum of all places that solar roadways/pathways etc are a viable idea.
That is just your opinion you are allowed to have. Reality is that these projects are paid by companies investing in renewable energy projects (and not government subsidies as you like to think). I don't (and everyone else shouldn't) buy your claim all those people are complete idiots. Nay saying has never improved the world. Likely there is some very interesting spin-off technology coming from these projects as well as elevating solar panels like you propose also adds additional costs AND permitting issues (as the NL is not an autocratic country). This has been explained at length before including cost calculations (which circles back to why it is financially interesting to integrate solar panels into pavement).

From what I've seen and experienced from doing my own solar panel install, the solar panel installation technology is far from mature and a lot can be improved. So any solar panel related development is more than welcome. One major improvement to (add-on) roof mounted solar panels could be a better interconnect system that allows to remove / replace solar panels in an easier way. At the moment typical solar panel installations are more or less permanent making any maintenance work to the roof near impossible.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 03:52:10 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2023, 03:21:52 pm »
Quote
Nope. About 15% to 20% of suitable roofs is already covered in the NL. The energy crisis has given the amount of solar installation a huge boost. Google maps is way behind with updating the images. Just in the street I live in there is a van from a solar installer about every week. Google's images for my my area are about 10 years old.
Nope, about 35% of private houses are covered and about 16% of rental houses, together 14% of the quest for power https://www.duurzaam-ondernemen.nl/nederland-bereikt-2-miljoen-huizen-met-zonnepanelen/
 

Offline RAPo

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« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 08:55:28 am by RAPo »
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2023, 03:37:02 pm »
A great part is quite literally taxpayers' money. The tax (21%) can be asked for installation and buyers' cost (https://ondernemersplein.kvk.nl/zonnepanelen-btw-terugvragen-voor-uw-bedrijf-of-woning).
But the The Netherlands Court of Audit is very sceptical: the money is no free money: value loss of the associated loans at payback time is less than half. (https://www.rekenkamer.nl/publicaties/rapporten/2022/12/13/warmtefonds-geen-gratis-geld)
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2023, 09:58:32 pm »
The NL is kinda late for the solar installations compared to our neighbors, but there has been a massive growth of installations in the last 2 years.
Source https://transparency.entsoe.eu/generation/r2/installedGenerationCapacityAggregation/show?name=&defaultValue=false&viewType=GRAPH&areaType=BZN&atch=false&dateTime.dateTime=01.01.2015+00:00|UTC|YEAR&dateTime.endDateTime=01.01.2024+00:00|UTC|YEAR&area.values=CTY|10YNL----------L!BZN|10YNL----------L&productionType.values=B16
What you see on the image is the installed solar capacity at 22000MW, to give it some context this is equivalent to about 44 nuclear reactors. It also rapidly became 3x the installed capacity of Belgium, and more than Spain or France.
It's fascinating what the completely unethical pricing of electricity can do.

This is a niche, but unlike the solar roadways, it somehow kinda makes sense to me. Yes, it's expensive at 50 EUR per panel. And it's not for everyone. But I can see this installed on a roof terrace. Or a pier.
The one in Gronningen is a bad installation, it has shading by the surroundings. Let's say you can improve it 1.5x by placing it in an open area. Let's say they also improve the production costs 1.5x, it's not impossible with better injection moulds, metal stamps and other large scale techniques. Subtract the price of some high quality floor tiles (60 EUR/m2 easily). Then it's somewhere at 10-15 year ROI, completely different picture.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2023, 11:24:27 pm »
This is a niche, but unlike the solar roadways, it somehow kinda makes sense to me. Yes, it's expensive at 50 EUR per panel. And it's not for everyone. But I can see this installed on a roof terrace. Or a pier.
The one in Gronningen is a bad installation, it has shading by the surroundings. Let's say you can improve it 1.5x by placing it in an open area. Let's say they also improve the production costs 1.5x, it's not impossible with better injection moulds, metal stamps and other large scale techniques. Subtract the price of some high quality floor tiles (60 EUR/m2 easily). Then it's somewhere at 10-15 year ROI, completely different picture.

It will always be WAY less bang-per-buck than any conventional panel installation.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog 1544 - Platio Solar Pavement BUSTED!
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2023, 12:02:41 am »
The huge solar array in Oz with the "power cord" to Singapore was at least something that could have been done, if the very long underwater cable route didn't turn out to be impractical.

Sure about that?
I ran the ballpark numbers:



The "if the very long underwater cable route didn't turn out to be impractical." part was not a statement that it was impractical, more a "I dunno, but it sounds a bit like it might be".

As a Broadcast/Comms person, I tend to think of 10% losses as "Meh! that's less than 0.5 dB!", so it sounds pretty good!
Of course, it is real power which needs to be dissipated in heat, but for a cable that long, submerged in water, it probably not that much of a problem.

Much more of a problem is the political will to produce electricity for another country, especially when that country has been, over decades, extolled by Australian business leaders as "doing everything so much better than Australia" despite the totally different problems of running a "City State" compared to a Federation covering an area of 7,692,024 km2, with all that entails.
Sorry Singapore, not your fault, but it does "get up people's noses" after enough decades of such comments.

"Realpolitik" says use the power at home!
 


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