EEVblog 1651 - Home Electrical Switchboard UPGRADE

[Monkeh]

Probably will be. I, and probably WIMPy, am approaching this from the perspective of the engineering of a safety system deployed billions of times over. "Usually okay" isn't reassuring to me in that context. Nor is "usually just an inconvenience".
You could test the discrimination in practice if you feel adventurous.. Or perhaps have Mehdi visit?

Even if I did that, and only the 20A tripped, you'd still argue it's engineered wrong. So what's the point?

If it's actually engineered and discrimination can be demonstrated, why would I make such an argument?

[EEVblog]

If it's actually engineered and discrimination can be demonstrated, why would I make such an argument?

You literally just did in the previous post:

Bearing in mind the results can be drastically different depending on whether the outlet is on the other side of the house or the other side of the wall. The C32s are of markedly more concern than C16s, being closer to the magnetic characteristics (technically, they could be identical) and much lower impedance circuits.

[WIMPy]

Without having actually tested it

And there's the crux of the issue.

Was any real testing done? Sure, someone may have walked around with a socket tester and roughly verified polarity and the vague presence of an earth, but were any actual tests done? Are the protective devices known to operate?

Yes. I did make the same mistake back then.
So this was not just hypothetical, but a known issue to me.
Yes, I do agree that short circuits are rare. But I wouldn't like the idea to have to whole house cut off if it did happen.
And here that installation wouldn't be up to code because of that possibility.

And to Dave:
I'm surprised by your reaction. I just pointed out a potential issue. And after all you mentioned a fridge becoming a bio hazard area because of a similar issue (even with a more likely cause that has been eliminated now).
And also I didn't just recommend to replace the main fuse by a switch, but alternatively with an E-type breaker.

[5U4GB]

That's because it would've been hard to get a fencing nail through that hole..

Not a fencing nail, #8 fencing wire, a.k.a. 50-amp extra-slow-blow fuse.

[5U4GB]

The labeling is pretty awful. 'light light power power AC AC AC' - okay, which one? Just flip a few and see? Is it even really known where any of those go?

This labelling is unfortunately standard here even on very recent installs.  Saves the sparky some time, you know.

The traditional form (1980s and earlier) is hardboard backing, ceramic or plug-in fuses/circuit breakers, gaps where things have been removed, and either printed labels saying "light light light power power power" or handwritten labels in white saying what the circuit may have done at some point in the past. 

And if you're really lucky there'll be some asbestos in there somewhere too.

Case in point:



Cheers guys, very useful!

That's the newer sub-board, this is the main house board:



Note that the "light"-labelled circuits aren't necessarily for lighting, they're just arranged by tradition as { RCD, power, power, light } whether they're power or light or not.  And this was after removing the wiring that led to the label "MCB does not disconnect power, use RCD to shut down group" (luckily I always double-check everything from two sides, which turned up the wiring loop that created this case).

[5U4GB]

The only faults have been product earth leakage issues that have tripped the RCD.

Never underestimate the value of RCDs for finding these things.  My partner bought some Chinesium slow cooker from Kmart that tripped the RCD when used, we'd never have known without the RCD.  Imagine using that in the kitchen with wet hands...

[EEVblog]

[EEVblog]

And to Dave:
I'm surprised by your reaction.

What's wrong with me thinking it's ok and not as big a deal as you are making out?

[WIMPy]

And to Dave:
I'm surprised by your reaction.

What's wrong with me thinking it's ok and not as big a deal as you are making out?

Noting. It's obviously entirely up to you to decide what's important to you.

It's just after you mentioned that fridge incident, I thought I'd better point out that you have a potential for a deja vu there.
Sure it's nowhere near as likely as with one RCD for all circuits, but short circuits can happen.

And as I made exactly that mistake in the past, I thought I'd share it, so others can avoid a potentially major annoyance.
We all know that Murphy will ensure it hits you at the most inconvenient time, don't we?

[Kleinstein]

The markings can be a bit anoying, if one needs to deenergize to do some repairs (e.g. replace a switch or lamp). Still it is not such a big issue, just a few more tries maybe. It could also help if there are random RCD trips and finding out which devices are actually on that circuit - the nasty ones (like an extra rarely used outlet at the outside or in the basement that got humidity) may be missed with labeling anyway.
If wanted one could add additional lables later.

Today tripping breakers  is not longer that common - it was an issue with old incandecent light bulbs when they burn out. The more likely tripping todays is when turning on a consumer with high inrush current (SMPS, motor, transformer) or some RCD tripping e.g. via mains transients and plenty of capacitance to PE from multiple SMPS.

There can be a benefit from having the mains switch as a breaker that reacts a bit faster than the main fuse from supplier. If that fuse blows it can take some time to get it replaced. With only 63 A single phase it is not that impossible to get an overload situation.

[EEVblog]

The labeling is pretty awful. 'light light power power AC AC AC' - okay, which one? Just flip a few and see? Is it even really known where any of those go?

This labelling is unfortunately standard here even on very recent installs.  Saves the sparky some time, you know.

The problem with labels is that they often fade and the glue wears off.
Some sparkies will use proper pre-printed labels, and higher quality ones like engraved aluminimum.

[EEVblog]

There can be a benefit from having the mains switch as a breaker that reacts a bit faster than the main fuse from supplier. If that fuse blows it can take some time to get it replaced. With only 63 A single phase it is not that impossible to get an overload situation.

Yes, I didn't have that ability before, so the extra 63A main breaker over the old switch is an improvement.

[EEVblog]

The markings can be a bit anoying, if one needs to deenergize to do some repairs (e.g. replace a switch or lamp). Still it is not such a big issue, just a few more tries maybe. It could also help if there are random RCD trips and finding out which devices are actually on that circuit - the nasty ones (like an extra rarely used outlet at the outside or in the basement that got humidity) may be missed with labeling anyway.
If wanted one could add additional lables later.

I have never actually know which breaker relates the which power point in the house, as it's not that obvious in my original house wiring, and is a little bit random.
To do this I'd have the label every power point in the house, never botherd to do that.
Ones like the AC don't really matter, because if I ever wanted to work on an AC it's easy enough to just switch them all off.

In my lab I have them labelled as "near wall" and "far wall" because they are nicely separated.

[5U4GB]

I have never actually know which breaker relates the which power point in the house, as it's not that obvious in my original house wiring, and is a little bit random.

I've found this to be quite useful for that, it recently allowed me to fairly precisely trace out a particular wiring run in an area where two different NCV's wouldn't even give a reading.  A while back you reviewed one of their other products, maybe they'd send you the one in the linked post for review.

[EEVblog]

I have never actually know which breaker relates the which power point in the house, as it's not that obvious in my original house wiring, and is a little bit random.

I've found this to be quite useful for that, it recently allowed me to fairly precisely trace out a particular wiring run in an area where two different NCV's wouldn't even give a reading.  A while back you reviewed one of their other products, maybe they'd send you the one in the linked post for review.

Probably easier to just turn off each breaker and then walk around and test and label as I go.

[Ranayna]

The problem with labels is that they often fade and the glue wears off.
Some sparkies will use proper pre-printed labels, and higher quality ones like engraved aluminimum.

Genuine Brother P-Touch does not fade nor does the glue wear off. Some fingerprints also do not really matter, as long as the surface is dust free.
I have various labels that are in wind and weather and sun. They stick, as long as no one nibbles at the corners. I had a couple on stainless steel that even stuck too well and could not be removed without much effort.

[BradC]

Probably easier to just turn off each breaker and then walk around and test and label as I go.

My place was a nightmare. 3 Phase and the original 1969 board more convoluted than yours. My living room had 3 separate sockets on 3 separate circuits on 3 separate phases. I did what you were suggesting but in reverse. I turned everything on, then flicked off one breaker at a time doing a walk around to see what was where. I then produced a drawing in AutoCAD (just because I have it and know how to use it) and used that to produce legends for the switchboard. I printed those out on an A4 Avery self adhesive label, "laminated" them with quality 3M tape and cut them out so they fit the switchboard.

Since then we've had a new 3 phase AC install and I haven't got around to updating the legends.

[golden_labels]

And this is a 1970s Soviet era building: a box for an apartment.

The door is missing, because a renovation team broken it out at some point to get into the box. Housing coöp taped it twice with packing tape, which held for no more than some weeks. Finally somebody torn it off completely.

Mine still has the door and is connected to earth. Unlike the one photographed, where the earth wire was removed along with the door.

[Eka]

The problem with labels is that they often fade and the glue wears off.
Some sparkies will use proper pre-printed labels, and higher quality ones like engraved aluminimum.

Genuine Brother P-Touch does not fade nor does the glue wear off. Some fingerprints also do not really matter, as long as the surface is dust free.
I have various labels that are in wind and weather and sun. They stick, as long as no one nibbles at the corners. I had a couple on stainless steel that even stuck too well and could not be removed without much effort.

I second the Genuine Brother P-Touch being very long lasting. I used them when I rewired my parents farm over 23 years ago, and wired my new farmhouse on the farm. Still fine 20 years later when I sold the farm. This includes the labels on the outside outlets.

I've already printed most of the labels for my dads 1950s vintage house rewire nightmare. 3 panels with no master circuit breaker on their input, and no room to install one. If I did, it would have to be at the bottom because the main wires all enter at the bottom, and go direct to the buss rails. They are 1950s vintage Square D QO Line panels. Judging from the part number on a label, I think they are first generation QO Line. Most of the circuit breakers were also from the first generation of the QO line. All the wiring is rubberized glass fiber cloth insulation. Everything must be replaced if anything is touched by a licensed electrician. At least the laws allow the homeowner to do their own work. I redid the HVAC panel first and moved all basement circuits to it. I'm 90% of the way through redoing the kitchen panel, and about 25% of the way through redoing the garage panel. The electrician doing the inspections of my work last time asked if there was any reason to come out because my previous inspections passed with no issues. This is all in preparation for installing a solar system.

[5U4GB]

Genuine Brother P-Touch does not fade nor does the glue wear off. Some fingerprints also do not really matter, as long as the surface is dust free.
I have various labels that are in wind and weather and sun. They stick, as long as no one nibbles at the corners. I had a couple on stainless steel that even stuck too well and could not be removed without much effort.

+1 for those.  In fact they're a nightmare to get off, when we redid the wiring here (see the photos in a previous post) I had to scrape them off the a razor blade, nothing would move them, and that was ten years after they were applied.  So no concerns about them peeling or fading.

[Eka]

Genuine Brother P-Touch does not fade nor does the glue wear off. Some fingerprints also do not really matter, as long as the surface is dust free.
I have various labels that are in wind and weather and sun. They stick, as long as no one nibbles at the corners. I had a couple on stainless steel that even stuck too well and could not be removed without much effort.

+1 for those.  In fact they're a nightmare to get off, when we redid the wiring here (see the photos in a previous post) I had to scrape them off the a razor blade, nothing would move them, and that was ten years after they were applied.  So no concerns about them peeling or fading.

They have three levels of stick that I know of. Normal that can be removed, but sticks harder and harder with time. Security is much harder to peal off and leaves a checkerboard patterned glue mess behind. Then there is Extra Strength. Yeah, get out the scraper. I hope you didn't put it on a plastic surface. Note: All of them are sun and weatherproof. I only used normal for the labels on the farm.

[bartgrefte]

That's a lot of circuit breakers, I'm jealous. The 90's Dutch style circuit breaker box here only has 3 breakers, for the entire house

Breaker 1: Half of the house
Breaker 2: Other half, including all but one of the walloutlets in the kitchen
Breaker 3: 1 walloutlet in the kitchen, used by the washingmachine.
Earth leakage breaker: Doubles as main switch to cut off power to the entire house.

.... and yes, that is uninsulated copper under the breakers, apparently that was allowed back then.

Since last year our non-smart digital meter, that spat out 4 kWh-counters once per 10-15 seconds using IEC 62056-21

and a blinking LED for power (1 pulse per Wh, had a BPW34 photodiode to monitor that), got replaced by a smart one, of the DSMR5 variety.

Now I get 4 kWh-counters, total power in, total power out, grid voltage (rounded off to whole numbers), grid voltage swells, grid voltage drops, current and  the counter of the wirelessly connected smart gasmeter, once per second Though the gasmeter's counter is only updated one per 5 minutes since it runs off a battery.

Example data message to give an idea:

Code: [Select]

/Ene5\XS210 ESMR 5.0

1-3:0.2.8(50)
0-0:1.0.0(171105201324W)
0-0:96.1.1(*serialnumber*)
1-0:1.8.1(000051.775*kWh)
1-0:1.8.2(000000.000*kWh)
1-0:2.8.1(000024.413*kWh)
1-0:2.8.2(000000.000*kWh)
0-0:96.14.0(0001)
1-0:1.7.0(00.335*kW)
1-0:2.7.0(00.000*kW)
0-0:96.7.21(00003)
0-0:96.7.9(00001)
1-0:99.97.0(0)(0-0:96.7.19)
1-0:32.32.0(00002)
1-0:32.36.0(00000)
0-0:96.13.0()
1-0:32.7.0(229.0*V)
1-0:31.7.0(001*A)
1-0:21.7.0(00.335*kW)
1-0:22.7.0(00.000*kW)
0-1:24.1.0(003)
0-1:96.1.0(4730303538353330303031313633323137)
0-1:24.2.1(171105201000W)(00016.713*m3)
!8F46And that's just single phase, with triple phase there's also power in and out per phase, grid voltage (plus drops and swells) per phase, current per phase.

Add to that the former Tuya (flashed to Tasmota) smartplug, 4 Shelly Plugs, 10 Shelly Plus Plug S's and 4 Shelly PM Mini gen3's, I got a pretty good idea of where most of the power is going. Though too bad the smartplugs don't send data as often as the smart meter, that screws up the sankey charts in Home Assistant a bit

[5U4GB]

Breaker 1: Half of the house
Breaker 2: Other half, including all but one of the walloutlets in the kitchen
Breaker 3: 1 walloutlet in the kitchen, used by the washingmachine.

This sounds like the Black Books filing system: "This is bubbly-boo, this is misc, and the rest are other" :-).

[Black Phoenix]

I really don't understand what people are worried about:

https://youtu.be/r3EpsK-HE3c?si=wIGKpe05MkSytoqD

Compared with this above, Dave's is a 5 star install.

My main thing about Dave's install is: Dave is really both Live and Neutral from the company coming behind the panel and then through the perforation to the front? Even with the seals in the front, is as easy as opening the back panel and doing the piggyback there no?

[EEVblog]

I have never actually know which breaker relates the which power point in the house, as it's not that obvious in my original house wiring, and is a little bit random.

I've found this to be quite useful for that, it recently allowed me to fairly precisely trace out a particular wiring run in an area where two different NCV's wouldn't even give a reading.  A while back you reviewed one of their other products, maybe they'd send you the one in the linked post for review.

Probably easier to just turn off each breaker and then walk around and test and label as I go.

FYI, Mrs EEVblog just vetoed labeling the outlets, it's "ugly".