Author Topic: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions  (Read 18246 times)

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Offline BravoV

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EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« on: March 07, 2012, 05:39:37 am »
Dave,

Watched your video on the diptrace and looking at your problems there, suggesting you to watch the video -> http://www.diptrace.com/tour/ , trust me, the tour video is very well made. Oh yeah, don't worry, its not a tutorial video and it wont show you the boring noob info like what is a pad  :-\, I think its made for intermediate users.

Now, about your minor problems you encountered which is  totally understandable since you have time constraint :

- Library thingy, the "default" library editing is always pointed to your "own" library folder, to change/move the "default/system" library, its in the diptrace program folder and in the "lib" folder. Diptrace concept is to differenciate the system/default library vs user's library.

- Problem on adding your own made "test" library, you forgot to click the "add" button, thats why its not there.

- The long list of library can be sorted by alphabetically , or can be customized so you don't have to scroll along the long list of libraries and also put your favorites one at the start instead have to scroll thru it. Also you can have a scroll bar by clicking that small arrow under the library tab.

- Delete line, its pretty intuitive, you click on select tool or just right click, and hover across the line you want, and don't forget to click on it, and press delete button, pretty intuitive imo.

- About 3D view, I think you stated in the beginning that you have not downloaded the 3d library.


Anyway, thanks for making the video, great preview.


PS : I'm no way affiliated with diptrace at all, its just I really like it for the 1st time, and they will send a free lite version max at 500 pins 2 layers for free if you request it, although I'm pretty sure if they know you're the one who asked it, they might send the full version one for free. ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 07:00:28 am by BravoV »
 

Offline shebu18

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 05:58:32 am »
Hy, nice video about diptrace!
Going through the tour will answer many questions. For changing a footprint by the attached pattern you need to add a footprint library from where to select the footprint. On the right corner you have add and clear.


I find it a great program for hobby use, and even a professional use.
 

Offline harnon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 10:10:09 am »
A couple of observations to add to BravoV's

- You can export full Gerbers from the trial version, however your design had more than 300 pins so it was over the pin limit (its just a useless error message)

- With the slow rendering on zoom it doesn't happen on my PC.... however I did read somewhere that if you change the drawing mode from DirectX it can fix this - look at View Menu >> Graphics Mode and try some of the other options.  I'd also try when you aren't screen capturing to see if that makes a difference.

- 3D mode is ok but there are quite a few missing components...
 

Offline harnon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 10:12:51 am »
Oh yeah, and if you send Diptrace an email asking nicely they'll send you a code to upgrade to 500 pin limit (still not for profit).
 

Offline novarm44

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 01:06:10 pm »
Greetings from DipTrace team!

First Thank You! for the great video with first-time customer experience - we will try to change some things in the program to make them more clear/visible based on the video.

In addition to all comments:

1. Freeware allows you to open/edit larger files (free viewer), but you can not add components / export gerbers for large files. 300 pin file will be exported with ease. The message is not clear, so we will definitely change it. BTW Started allows to export Gerbers of any size (the limitation is adding new components). The limitation applies to both Schematic and PCB.

2. Number of signal layers = 2, plane layers (power, ground) are unlimited.

3. Auto-router shown the warning message about too thick traces, that is why it was unable to route the board with fine-pitch component and thick traces.

4. 3D preview doesn't work because of graphics problem. Just select OpenGL in View/Graphics mode. You probably have Intel HD video (integrated into Sandy Bridge processor). We have the same issue, but were unable to fix it yet - all works smoothly (no exceptions, no warnings, the memory is ok), it just doesn't show anything.
 

Offline 2XL

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 02:49:22 am »
Great video on DipTrace. 

I installed the 64 bit free version of DipTrace and also the 3D models on Windows 7 64 bit. 

Since installing this program my hard drive is constantly reading  and writing to the disk.  Its to the point where my computer is almost unusable.

It now takes a few minutes to power down and also a few minutes to boot up my computer.  The disk is constantly being access. My computer NEVER did this prior to installing this program.

I wonder what this program did to my computer!!!!

I'm a little bit leery of this program now.
 >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:(

 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 03:29:33 am »
I installed the same thing you did and I have no such problems.

Offline kaz911

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 03:39:40 am »
Great video on DipTrace. 

I installed the 64 bit free version of DipTrace and also the 3D models on Windows 7 64 bit. 

Since installing this program my hard drive is constantly reading  and writing to the disk.  Its to the point where my computer is almost unusable.

It now takes a few minutes to power down and also a few minutes to boot up my computer.  The disk is constantly being access. My computer NEVER did this prior to installing this program.

I wonder what this program did to my computer!!!!

I'm a little bit leery of this program now.
 >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:(

Well before you start accusing a piece of software for doing something on your hard drive - then why don't you try to figure out what is going on?

Just start Resource Monitor on Windows 7 64bit and it will show you which programs are using your hard drive all the time.

If it is "hidden" in one of the svchost dll loaders - you can use a Microsoft Powertool called Process Explorer to debug further.

I have Diptrace installed on 3 computers - and they are just as blazingly fast as before I installed it.

But then if you downloaded a hacked version - you never know what spyware you have installed..... **

best regards

/Kaz
** see here I accused you of installing a hacked version without proof.  Does that feel nice? I have the same weight of evidence for you installing spyware as you have of Diptrace is the bugger slowing down your computer. So before you accuse anyone of wrongdoing you should really present the evidence..... And sorry for accusing you of installing pirate software.
 

Offline TerminalJack505

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 03:43:39 am »
Great video on DipTrace. 

I installed the 64 bit free version of DipTrace and also the 3D models on Windows 7 64 bit. 

Since installing this program my hard drive is constantly reading  and writing to the disk.  Its to the point where my computer is almost unusable.

It now takes a few minutes to power down and also a few minutes to boot up my computer.  The disk is constantly being access. My computer NEVER did this prior to installing this program.

I wonder what this program did to my computer!!!!

I'm a little bit leery of this program now.
 >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:(

Are you sure it isn't your antivirus software scanning all the newly installed files?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:17:58 am by TerminalJack505 »
 

Offline PeterG

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 04:13:13 am »
Great video on DipTrace. 

I installed the 64 bit free version of DipTrace and also the 3D models on Windows 7 64 bit. 

Since installing this program my hard drive is constantly reading  and writing to the disk.  Its to the point where my computer is almost unusable.

It now takes a few minutes to power down and also a few minutes to boot up my computer.  The disk is constantly being access. My computer NEVER did this prior to installing this program.

I wonder what this program did to my computer!!!!

I'm a little bit leery of this program now.
 >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:( :( >:(




The above reminds me a lot of windows hammering the swap file due to lack of ram.

I was able to replicate this by installing DipTrace on a virtual pc with win 7 and low ram.

I am thinking 2XL probably has MS Office and Norton Av installed crammed into 2GB ram. Both are heave resource hogs.

Regards
Testing one two three...
 

Offline 2XL

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 04:32:33 am »
The version I installed was the free 64 bit version from the DipTrace Website where Dave got is.  No cracked version here.

The first time I ran this program it took about 2 minutes to load, which seemed odd.  During that time the hard drive activity was going crazy and my modem was showing that the computer was trying to get a network connection or find a network drive. Once the program loaded I checked the Task Manager and it was using 91% CPU constantly and accessing the disk constantly.  I then rebooted the computer which took about 4 minutes to shutdown and about three 3 to book up.  My computer always shuts down and boots up in under 30 seconds.  I uninstalled this program and the computer still is slow and takes a long time to shut down and boot up. 

Take this post as one user's experience.  If the program works for you great.  It did not for me and I'm pissed that it hozed my computer.

Kaz911, have  a beer and relax mate!  Your gonna give yourself an ulcer and high blood pressure!

 

Offline 2XL

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 04:41:32 am »
PeterG,
I'm running Win764, 16GB RAM, ESET Security (not Norton), no virtual machine.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 04:55:11 am »
The version I installed was the free 64 bit version from the DipTrace Website where Dave got is.  No cracked version here.

The first time I ran this program it took about 2 minutes to load, which seemed odd.  During that time the hard drive activity was going crazy and my modem was showing that the computer was trying to get a network connection or find a network drive. Once the program loaded I checked the Task Manager and it was using 91% CPU constantly and accessing the disk constantly.  I then rebooted the computer which took about 4 minutes to shutdown and about three 3 to book up.  My computer always shuts down and boots up in under 30 seconds.  I uninstalled this program and the computer still is slow and takes a long time to shut down and boot up. 

Take this post as one user's experience.  If the program works for you great.  It did not for me and I'm pissed that it hozed my computer.

Kaz911, have  a beer and relax mate!  Your gonna give yourself an ulcer and high blood pressure!

haha you are funny. Again - you still claim it hosed your computer. You have been in Task Manager. That is not far from Resource Monitor - try and click it for fun and see which process is sucking your computer dry. (Task Manager - Performance Tab - Click the little button called "Resource Monitor" and you can see exactly which process is eating your juice.)

I do think it is ESET that is slowing your computer. That has a reputation for being a monster when it scans. And when you install the 3D packages you install a heck of a lot of files.

And regarding beer - naah it is 9am in the morning for me so to early. But I'll go for my normal daily 5 mile run.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 08:17:55 am »
Why would a program that's not even running be accessing your hard drive...

You can get to Resource Monitor from the Performance tab in Task Manager. Takes less than a minute to identify the process at fault.

Offline Dagon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 02:04:50 pm »
Quote
About 3D view, I think you stated in the beginning that you have not downloaded the 3d library.

Nah, it'll still display a blank board even without the models.

I'm running it under wine in linux and got the same blank gray screen when directx was selected, just needed to switch to opengl. Might be something about his drivers it doesn't like.  It's in View --> Graphics mode.


Quote
Oh yeah, and if you send Diptrace an email asking nicely they'll send you a code to upgrade to 500 pin limit (still not for profit).

Yeah, got that off them to. Don't know what they don't just set it to 500 to begin with though.
I saw Elvis. He sat between me and bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline novarm44

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2012, 02:20:19 pm »
Quote
Yeah, got that off them to. Don't know what they don't just set it to 500 to begin with though.
To let people tell about that on forums :)
Also 500-pin version can easily open and export to gerber 10,000 pin layout (no limitation for viewing and exporting). Freeware can export up to 300 pins only.
 

Offline Dagon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2012, 03:41:06 pm »
Quote
To let people tell about that on forums

Good point.
I saw Elvis. He sat between me and bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline pachuma

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2012, 12:26:59 pm »
Big show stopper on a Mac!

I was hoping to migrate from Eagle CAD to some other CAD software (never was a big fan of Eagle, but it worked on a Mac) and when trying to execute DIPtrace on a Mac with OSX Lion - mec!!! No go at all.

The application stays in the splash screen forever.

Has anybody had any joy at executing DIPtrace on a Mac with OSX Lion?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2012, 12:47:02 pm »
DIPtrace have given me a license code to enable the Non-Profit (Lite) version for 500 pins for those who ask.
Can't make it public, but if you want it, message me.

Dave.
 

Offline Armin_Balija

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2012, 12:50:58 pm »
Big show stopper on a Mac!

I was hoping to migrate from Eagle CAD to some other CAD software (never was a big fan of Eagle, but it worked on a Mac) and when trying to execute DIPtrace on a Mac with OSX Lion - mec!!! No go at all.

The application stays in the splash screen forever.

Has anybody had any joy at executing DIPtrace on a Mac with OSX Lion?

You have to download the proper version of some other program (I don't recall the name) that is on their site. I emailed them about it a while ago and their response was this:

Dear Armin,

2.6.3 is for Snow Leopard only, for Leopard (10.5.8) you should use 2.4.0. See here: http://www.diptrace.com/download.php

More recent version doesn't mean compatible version, also only XQuartz works properly in some cases (native Apple X11 doesn't work).

Regards,
Stan.

Now this is for Leopard (albeit an older version) But it goes the same for Tiger.
Cheers

Armin
 

Offline harnon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2012, 01:02:44 pm »
DIPtrace have given me a license code to enable the Non-Profit (Lite) version for 500 pins for those who ask.
Can't make it public, but if you want it, message me.
Dave.

Dave, anybody can get a code by just contacting DipTrace via their website...
 

Offline pachuma

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2012, 01:58:18 pm »
I'll download XQuarz and give it a shot, I'll keep you posted.
 

Offline pachuma

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2012, 09:12:20 pm »
More or less it works on Mac. The only main problem that I am finding is that the mouse pointer is way of center. So you have to click with th bottom of the mouse point, as opposed to the mouse pointer!

Anyway, I'll give it a shot see how it turns out.
 

Offline novarm44

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 06:04:44 am »
Quote
Dave, anybody can get a code by just contacting DipTrace via their website...

If you plan to buy DipTrace (any edition, including Non-Profit versions), you can do that directly from Dave, to support his blog. Dave can also provide you with Non-Profit Lite Edition in the same way as we do on DipTrace web-site.

Regards,
Stanislav Ruev
DipTrace Senior Developer
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 06:07:04 am by novarm44 »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 09:41:37 am »
DIPtrace have given me a license code to enable the Non-Profit (Lite) version for 500 pins for those who ask.
Can't make it public, but if you want it, message me.

Dave.

I am under the impression that everyone can ask a key Lite version for free.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline Kibi

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2012, 12:19:24 pm »
More or less it works on Mac. The only main problem that I am finding is that the mouse pointer is way of center. So you have to click with th bottom of the mouse point, as opposed to the mouse pointer!

Anyway, I'll give it a shot see how it turns out.

I got it go when I installed XQuartz. Annoyingly, it made me restart my computer before it would work, something I haven't done in about 6 months. The application ran up and then froze rock solid after a minute with the CPU pegged at 100%.
I might have to run it under vmware, bootcamp or get a Raspberry PI to run it on. Either way, I'll have to purchase a copy of "Windows", which is also annoying.
 

Offline baljemmett

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2012, 10:02:01 pm »
I might have [....] get a Raspberry PI to run it on. Either way, I'll have to purchase a copy of "Windows", which is also annoying.
Err -- you might want to rethink that particular plan of action!  ;)
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 10:59:20 am »
I'm running DipTrace on my iMac i5 8gb. Under VMware fusion 4. Works great and is faster then my windows machine. Yes you need a copy of Windiw, but you need windows anyway on a mac if you're doing electronics  design, too much stuff out there needs it. I use unity mode and it's just like a Mac app.

The mac version of dip trace uses Wine, forget that wine is sloooow.

pS Dave needs to look a bit more closely at the menus , I can't beleive the number of times he passed " place board outline". I was shouting at the video by the fourth or fifth time. Calm down a little Dave ! , you're like the Duracell bunny . 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 11:17:21 am »
pS Dave needs to look a bit more closely at the menus , I can't beleive the number of times he passed " place board outline". I was shouting at the video by the fourth or fifth time. Calm down a little Dave ! , you're like the Duracell bunny .

Try recording a continuous commentary video at the same time as you try a program for the first time and you might understand there are several distractions!

Dave.
 

Offline novarm44

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 12:50:53 pm »
Quote
Dave needs to look a bit more closely at the menus , I can't beleive the number of times he passed " place board outline". I was shouting at the video by the fourth or fifth time. Calm down a little Dave ! , you're like the Duracell bunny.
I made some DipTrace tutorials and had similar problem, then of course I edited videos. Notice I know all program features very well as I'm actually developing it and working with "closed eyes" (providing phone support when don't have computer with me). Dave's videos are not edited. Try to make any video tutorial yourself, don't stop recording when you make mistake, and continue within one hour - and you will see where is the catch.

BTW tutorials are here:

 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 01:20:39 pm »
Quote
Dave needs to look a bit more closely at the menus , I can't beleive the number of times he passed " place board outline". I was shouting at the video by the fourth or fifth time. Calm down a little Dave ! , you're like the Duracell bunny.
I made some DipTrace tutorials and had similar problem, then of course I edited videos. Notice I know all program features very well as I'm actually developing it and working with "closed eyes" (providing phone support when don't have computer with me). Dave's videos are not edited.

Most are. However, I don't know if he edited that particular one.

Nevertheless it was entertaining watching him to move over the board outline menu item again and again while looking for a way to set the board outline. It is like watching some football game on TV. You see exactly that a player should pass the ball, but doesn't, so you shout at the TV and spill your beer.
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Offline harnon

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2012, 06:00:24 pm »
Dave can probably answer better but I don't think the "first impressions" ones were edited.  He also did say "this is not a tutorial" about 1 minute in :D

I've also had a crack at a few tutorials (see the diptrace category) and its quite fun although I've it sometimes takes a few goes to get them "right" in one take (mostly technology issues :D)! 
 

Offline FreeThinker

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2012, 11:50:04 am »
Hi Dave
Re printing to pdf
Just install any virtual PDF printer and print out your schematic to PDF file.
I used doPDF which is free from http://www.dopdf.com/quick-download.php
I've attached a sample of schematic 6 from diptrace
<EDIT I've Just noticed some corruption in the template area, but as the schematic overflows the template this may be the cause. I've reloaded it on to a bigger template (A1) and it renders ok. END EDIT>
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 10:37:41 pm by FreeThinker »
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Offline Nimos

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2012, 07:34:16 pm »
I really like these "off the cuff" videos!
Have been looking for an affordable
PCB design tool and imho DipTrace is the best
i have used so far. So yay Dave and DipTrace! :)
 

Offline JTR

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2013, 01:24:12 pm »

Just doing my first PCB with DIPTRACE and will 299 pins used and needing to add one more LED (seriously!) I sent a "nice message" asking for the 500-pin limit and received a positive reply in 1/2 hour. Well done DIPTRACE, with 199 pins limit left this weeks quota of feature creep is taken care of and I will happily purchase a full license as soon as this project starts to earn.  :-+

 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2013, 01:33:55 pm »

Just doing my first PCB with DIPTRACE and will 299 pins used and needing to add one more LED (seriously!) I sent a "nice message" asking for the 500-pin limit and received a positive reply in 1/2 hour. Well done DIPTRACE, with 199 pins limit left this weeks quota of feature creep is taken care of and I will happily purchase a full license as soon as this project starts to earn.  :-+
Just fyi, I asked nicely if its allowed to use that free 500 pins license at 2 machines which are my desktop with big screen and laptop for mobility, and got a generous answer thats its legal.  :-+

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: EEVblog #255 - DIPtrace PCB CAD - First Impressions
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 05:23:45 am »
FWIW, I just bought the starter edition of DipTrace.  That actually lead me to Dave's blog, actually.  Funny...years ago I linked to one of Dave's multimeter shootout's because I got sick and tired of having to explain why cheap multimeters are...well....cheap and how important it is to have a fast, latching continuity check.  I didn't know how much great information there was here at the time.

Anyhow, I'm really liking DipTrace.  I really don't like the default through hole patterns.  Most of them seem to have pads that are really marginally sized.  I basically made my own library for the components I use.  Someone really put a lot of thought into real people doing real work with this thing.  It takes me about 5 minutes to update my library with a new component with the pattern I want.  From the schematic editor:

1) place component from the included library
2) switch to my own library
3) right click on the component and add it to the active library.
4) Open the pattern editor and open my pattern library
5) Suck in the pattern from the component I just added to my own library
6) Click on the pads and choose one of my standard pad templates
7) Open the component editor and attach the newly made pattern to the new component.

I doubt all of this even takes 5 minutes, and maybe 10 minutes if I need to make the component from scratch.

I love being able to export a 3d model via VRML.  I use Rhino for a CAD program for my guitar building work, but I've been using it for enclosure design too.  It's so convenient to be able to model parts placement based on the actual PCB instead of relying on measurements that I transfer between programs.  All my holes will line up perfectly, the silkscreen on the enclosure is perfect, etc etc.  As a reformed engineer, I really appreciate how much easier it is to line things up and detect mistakes when you're looking at a picture instead of a page of dimensions.  It's also obvious when I do something stupid, like building a board upside down...woops.  The VRML also includes the silkscreen, so it was pretty obvious as soon as I tried to stick the board in the enclosure.

I know it's kind of a low-end, budget option, but it's just really usable.  I was up and running doing real work in a day.  Considering that for most people here it's free, and for me it just cost $75 to get my feet wet, I'm pretty happy.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 05:26:14 am by John Coloccia »
 


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