EEVblog #281 - BK Precision 8500 Electronic Load Teardown

[nitro2k01]

Hmm, 100906. Are you sure about how you read the date? Could be '10 as well. That's why the world ought to switch to ISO8601...
As for the stickers, I would guess they are put on from right to left. It would make sense to do the calibration last, don't you think? (To make sure everything is functioning AFTER the burn-in and HV testiing.)
And why didn't we get to see you turn on the unit so we could see that VFD display at least for a few seconds in the end of the video?   

[olsenn]

Awesome! I'll have to watch this video when I get home; I have the Itech 8511 version (150W) but I imagine they are near identical. I was going to take it apart but just never got around to it

[M. András]

this looks nice btw but what the hell is making the price of this so high? or just a huge markup

[olsenn]

this looks nice btw but what the hell is making the price of this so high? or just a huge markup

You can get the IT8511 for around $400 - $500 on ebay. This may sound like a lot of money to you if you are in school and don't have a job... but it is actually very cheap!

[M. András]

not in school but that 4-500 usd is my whole monthly paycheck, yeah they pay shitty in hungary, but there are hardware ans software which i dont get what the hell cost that amount of money, lots of work etc but those wont justify the 2-3x markup on things after the baseprice includes these costs

[olsenn]

not in school but that 4-500 usd is my whole monthly paycheck, yeah they pay shitty in hungary, but there are hardware ans software which i dont get what the hell cost that amount of money, lots of work etc but those wont justify the 2-3x markup on things after the baseprice includes these costs

I'm not sure the markup is quite that high actually; BK Precision needs to pay their engineers a lot more than perhaps if they were stationed in Hungary. If DC electronic loads sold like ipods they could get away with selling it for much less profit per unit, and they would get great deals from the component manufacturers for bulk orders etc, but as it stands, when you add up the price of the metal frame, the heatsyncs, PCB, components, screen, design costs, testing, marketing... something like that will cost quite a few american dollars to produce.

I'm sure you can get a Chinese e-load on ebay or something though if you're tight on budget

[Rufus]

The reason you get an isolated RS232/USB interface is that the TTL interface on the DB9 isn't isolated.

All the load internal circuitry is referenced to the -ve input. When you stick 500v on the +ve input (of the 500v version) and don't connect the -ve input all internal circuitry is sitting at 500v. Dave worries about clearance and creepage on a couple of tracks carrying mains while you should worry about clearance and creepage between every part of the internal circuitry and everything that is earthed.

Would you trust a membrane keypad with 500v on the contacts? Would you expect 500v to come out of the DB9 on the back? The remote sense terminals on the back will also have 500v. The trigger input is probably opto-isolated.

I commented in the other thread on loads about the BK manual having a page of safety drivel about mains operated equipment while not bothering to mention you can kill yourself with the DB9 on the back.

All these cheap Chinese loads must come from the same (quite old) design. My Beich also has a big bridge rectifier bolted on the heatsink. It has the two middle legs cut off and is connected with skinny wire. I assume it is used to sense heatsink temperature, hard to imagine several designers independently coming up with that solution.

[BravoV]

Just curious about those big wire shunt resistors, if they're precision and supposed to be stable (low TC), are they just bare naked thick metal wires ?

If some how they're not protected or coated, they must be rust or corrosion resistant since placed and exposed directly to the intake vent holes that humidity from the air will hit them 1st.

[free_electron]

That grind-down chip is an SST 8051 compatible machine ...
if you are going to grind it down make sure to take the logo completely off... it is unmistakable SST ( not ST !! but SST: silicon Storage Technology . These guys have been around for a long time but recently shed all their non-pure-storage devices left and right and now focus on licencing the storage technology to 3rd parties. )

And here is the kicker ... SST microcontrollers are now owned by .....wait for it ...... tadaa .... Microchip ! , yep the PIC people... i guess they finally wisened up and went for a 'modern core' like the 8051 than their 'General Instruments PIC core' ... bwahahaaaa

[Bored@Work]

I commented in the other thread on loads about the BK manual having a page of safety drivel about mains operated equipment while not bothering to mention you can kill yourself with the DB9 on the back.

Hmm, I didn't see anything like opto couplers or something else that looked like galvanic isolation in the video. Do these things really not have separated isolated power and control stages? Ugh! Bad, bad, bad.

Even if the normal ITech loads are just specified for up to 120V, which is anyhow a strange limit if you live in 240V country, I would have assumed the power stage is properly isolated.

[Rufus]

I would have assumed the power stage is properly isolated.

Which is why not documenting that it isn't is so appalling.

[robrenz]

Just curious about those big wire shunt resistors, if they're precision and supposed to be stable (low TC), are they just bare naked thick metal wires ?

If some how they're not protected or coated, they must be rust or corrosion resistant since placed and exposed directly to the intake vent holes that humidity from the air will hit them 1st.

IMO its most likely one of the nichrome based resistance alloys as opposed to manganin so it would be fairly corrosion resistant in its bare condition.   

[EEVblog]

Hmm, 100906. Are you sure about how you read the date? Could be '10 as well. That's why the world ought to switch to ISO8601...
As for the stickers, I would guess they are put on from right to left. It would make sense to do the calibration last, don't you think? (To make sure everything is functioning AFTER the burn-in and HV testiing.)
And why didn't we get to see you turn on the unit so we could see that VFD display at least for a few seconds in the end of the video?   

I always put my dates with year last. But it could be the other way around. it wasn't inconceivable that it would be an 06 design.
Yes, cal is probably the last step.
People bitch when I turn things on in teardowns.
Follow my tweets and you would have got a photo of it days ago 

Dave.

[EEVblog]

this looks nice btw but what the hell is making the price of this so high? or just a huge markup

I think $900 street price for this ($750 ebay it seems, ITech branded) is actually quite good value. They are not huge volume test gear like scope, meters, or PSU's.
The 150W version is under $500 on ebay
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-1-Ch-DC-Electronic-load-0-120V-150W-BK-precision-/170639754546?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item27baec0532

Dave.

[EEVblog]

Just curious about those big wire shunt resistors, if they're precision and supposed to be stable (low TC), are they just bare naked thick metal wires ?

Probably nichrome or some such.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

The reason you get an isolated RS232/USB interface is that the TTL interface on the DB9 isn't isolated.

All the load internal circuitry is referenced to the -ve input. When you stick 500v on the +ve input (of the 500v version) and don't connect the -ve input all internal circuitry is sitting at 500v.

I just tried it, and that is indeed correct. Not good at all...

Dave.

[tom66]

DB9 RS-232 is quite simple to isolate - why didn't they do so? Seems strange to me that they'd then supply two separately isolated cables.

[KaZjjW]

That grind-down chip is an SST 8051 compatible machine ...
if you are going to grind it down make sure to take the logo completely off... it is unmistakable SST ( not ST !! but SST: silicon Storage Technology . These guys have been around for a long time but recently shed all their non-pure-storage devices left and right and now focus on licencing the storage technology to 3rd parties. )

And here is the kicker ... SST microcontrollers are now owned by .....wait for it ...... tadaa .... Microchip ! , yep the PIC people... i guess they finally wisened up and went for a 'modern core' like the 8051 than their 'General Instruments PIC core' ... bwahahaaaa

Came to the same conclusion. Definitely SST.
Probably a chip like the SST89E564 or similar/newer. The pins 14 and 15 for the Xtal on the datasheet match the PCB. Could be the same for Vss/Vdd (pin 16/38) and Rx/Tx (pin 5/7).

[Rufus]

The reason you get an isolated RS232/USB interface is that the TTL interface on the DB9 isn't isolated.

All the load internal circuitry is referenced to the -ve input. When you stick 500v on the +ve input (of the 500v version) and don't connect the -ve input all internal circuitry is sitting at 500v.

I just tried it, and that is indeed correct. Not good at all...

My Beich has a 1M8 bleed resistor to earth, what does yours measure between the -ve input and earth?

I doubled checked the BK data sheet and manual and don't see any specification for maximum applied voltage on the inputs with respect to earth. I haven't seen that specified on any of the other Chinese clones either.

I checked the isolation on my Beich at 500v and it held up but it has no right to. In one place that isolation is provided by one thickness of pvc insulating tape separating two sheets of aluminium.

Edit: more interesting points.
All these loads are derived somehow from the same basic design, the handbook for my Beich is dated 2006 so the design is quite old.

The processor in yours does look like a 44 pin 8051 and the remains of an SST logo looks likely. My beich has an ATMega. It looks like the processor, display, and remote control protocol are the only areas all the Chinese clones significantly differ.

[EEVblog]

DB9 RS-232 is quite simple to isolate - why didn't they do so? Seems strange to me that they'd then supply two separately isolated cables.

Quite likely an afterthought.
It's safe if you use the supplied cables, but if you try and hack your own, then there could be an issue.
But of course this is no different to any similar negative terminal (mains floating) referenced instrument, but given that this is a load designed to connect to potentially high voltage sources, extra care needs to be taken.

Dave.

[nitro2k01]

What's the terminal to ground configuration? Isolated, tied one of the terminals, or connected but high impedance?
I'm thinking that maybe all the the points between the control circutry and the terminals (MOSFET base and gate, current sense, and whatever else needs to be connected) are connected with high value resistors, as to limit any stray currents going between the sections to an acceptable level. Don't know if this is a viable design. Could be vulnerable to interference, for example.

[armandas]

Follow my tweets and you would have got a photo of it days ago 

Link, or it didn't happen.

[olsenn]

Here are some quick photos I took of the IT8511 operating in CC mode (0.5A). The screen is better than these photos show just to point out. Notice that there is a low precision and a high precision mode for both voltage and current... at ~10V/0.5A all four combinations are possible, but depending on how high of a voltage/current you have, you may need to adjust the settings.

I didn't wait for the voltage level to stabalize, so the displayed values change a bit from photo to photo. Also note the way I connected the PSU through the current sense port of my DMM to the load... this may cause a slight difference in the voltage seen by the multimeter vs that seen by the load?


upload pictures


image host


hosting images


upload pictures

[amspire]

I would expect the lead and clip contact resistance to have a noticeable voltage drop. All you have to do to check is use probes to the multimeter, and make sure you measure the voltage directly to the load's terminals instead of any part of the leads or clips.

[EEVblog]

Follow my tweets and you would have got a photo of it days ago 

Link, or it didn't happen.

http://twitpic.com/9m8sto

Dave.

[EEVblog]

My Beich has a 1M8 bleed resistor to earth, what does yours measure between the -ve input and earth?

No resistance, just 0.2uF

Dave.

[NiHaoMike]

Would you trust a membrane keypad with 500v on the contacts?

As long as the rubber is thick enough to provide enough insulation, why not? That situation comes up in many modern multimeters (including Flukes) as well as many mains operated appliances. In fact, the rubber buttons are probably thicker than the insulation on many smaller mains cables.

[eevblogfan]

hey

does any one has any sort of scheme of it ? I'd really like to understand the circuit and may even adopt some "out of the box" ideas ,

thank you in advance ! 

[electros6]

David sir , I am a big fan of yours. I am an Electronics hobbyist. You set me a right path . From my child hood I am very much interested in electronics , but I have no guidance . Even in my Engineering I hadn,t learn t as I learned form you. you are my role model.
     One small request . please do a blog on Dummy load ,about its constant power and resistance and do a review on BK Precision 8500 Electronic Load

Thanks you sir

[hax129]

After some browsing on eBay and www.aliexpress.com I found that these ITECH / B&K Precision series of instruments are sold under other brand names aswell:

Atten ATZ9711, ATZ9712 etc
Maynuo M9710, M9711, M9712 etc ($380 and up, including shipping)

I see no reason to pay a premium if the exact same device can be had for much less with another logo on the front. 

... so does anyone know if these are genuine OEM versions or just crappy ripoffs, not delivering what the specs promises? 

Thanks,
Henrik

[saturation]

Thanks to your comments Rufus, I've come up some interesting tidbits:

http://kb.bkprecision.com/questions.php?questionid=245
http://kb.bkprecision.com/questions.php?questionid=6

Many of these Chinese branded e-loads are not 3rd party safety or CE certified, FWIW.  However, I checked some 300W models from big names like Kikusui, most are CE certified, but often not more.  You can check status of any particular model from bigger names on their product pages such as from Agilent or Chroma.

Which comes down to the question, are any specifications written on the manual really true whether its safety or basic performance, when it comes to these China branded e-loads?  I think the bottom line for us is we need do what you did, test for ourselves, its the price of low cost.

The BK units tested here are at most CE.  So are equivalent Maynuo models.  But the Beichs, Arrays, et. al. have none at all.

The reason you get an isolated RS232/USB interface is that the TTL interface on the DB9 isn't isolated.

All the load internal circuitry is referenced to the -ve input. When you stick 500v on the +ve input (of the 500v version) and don't connect the -ve input all internal circuitry is sitting at 500v. Dave worries about clearance and creepage on a couple of tracks carrying mains while you should worry about clearance and creepage between every part of the internal circuitry and everything that is earthed.

Would you trust a membrane keypad with 500v on the contacts? Would you expect 500v to come out of the DB9 on the back? The remote sense terminals on the back will also have 500v. The trigger input is probably opto-isolated.

I commented in the other thread on loads about the BK manual having a page of safety drivel about mains operated equipment while not bothering to mention you can kill yourself with the DB9 on the back.

All these cheap Chinese loads must come from the same (quite old) design. My Beich also has a big bridge rectifier bolted on the heatsink. It has the two middle legs cut off and is connected with skinny wire. I assume it is used to sense heatsink temperature, hard to imagine several designers independently coming up with that solution.

[T4P]

The Array and the Maynuo is designed by the same guy as well the ITECH ( mostly findable in chinese markets only at a much lower price than what BK sells ) ones ( which makes BK DC electronic loads )
Well beich too, i'm pretty sure of that.
( BTW BK Precision rebadges their scopes )

[saturation]

On bolded items, thanks Rufus for the insights. 

This is a very concerning safety issue so I looked into it further and tested an Array 3710a. This issue raised would be a problem if the eloads are not floating, which they should be.  So 500V on +ve input would be problem if the source were referenced to earth.

1M8 bleed resistor alone from chassis to the system ground would limit current shock potential but it would not isolate the chassis from high voltage.

The reason you get an isolated RS232/USB interface is that the TTL interface on the DB9 isn't isolated.

All the load internal circuitry is referenced to the -ve input. When you stick 500v on the +ve input (of the 500v version) and don't connect the -ve input all internal circuitry is sitting at 500v.

I just tried it, and that is indeed correct. Not good at all...

My Beich has a 1M8 bleed resistor to earth, what does yours measure between the -ve input and earth?

I doubled checked the BK data sheet and manual and don't see any specification for maximum applied voltage on the inputs with respect to earth. I haven't seen that specified on any of the other Chinese clones either.

I checked the isolation on my Beich at 500v and it held up but it has no right to. In one place that isolation is provided by one thickness of pvc insulating tape separating two sheets of aluminium.

[konfu]

Hey folks,

I just found something nice on eBay and I just thought to myself "Wait a minute - that looks close to the BK Precision 8511". So I had a chat with the seller on ebay and just ordered a "Rek RK8511" electronic load for just about 250 EUR which is just around 312 AUD. Including shipping, customs, tax, ...

It arrived today and ... what should I say ... this seems to be a nice clone of the BK precision one. I've attached some pictures below.

Of course it is not as 120% well designed as the BK one: A little remaining flux on the PCB, some weird looking solder joints (I gonna fix this during next days), not such nice print on top of the PCB and so on. Really some pretty normal cheap Hong Kong stuff but hey - just 250 EUR and the same precision (0.05%) as the BK one. Great deal! Love it!

I actually didn't turn it on yet. I hope it just works the same way like the BK one. *crossing fingers*


One more thing: The name of the nice little µC on the board was not grinded away. It says "c8051F340 BCS038 1140" and that is a Silicon Labs MCU. Nothing spectacular but now we know what this really is ;-)

The handle bar is somewhat cheap but okay for a bench-top device.

Only the manual is a bit tricky: Nice chinese stuff. Can't read anything but "v3.0" and the nice little black&white pictures. I really hope it's working the same was like all the other devices so I can use other vendors manual

[LaurenceW]

Yes, there are a number of these floating about. They are SO similar that I imagine they are coming off the same production line, as the tooling looks identical (or stolen?). 

Have a GOOD LOOK in the corners of the PCB for any manufacturing reference numbers or brand names. What do you see?

Extra marks if you can figure out what the 8A Bridge Rectifier is doing, bolted on the heatsink. Clue: it is not connected to the load in any way, and is not part of the instrument's own internal power supply...

I have the 300W version of this, badged Maynuo. It features a smaller, but two-line, VFD, which displays four useful measurements at once, rather than the two larger measures on the "original" BK precision Load. Construction is OK.

You should be able to find either BK or Maynuo manuals on line - one or the other of those will probably cover your Load.

One tip. It is possible to recalibrate the instrument from the front panel alone, if you have appropriately calibrated external power an meters. DO NOT DO THIS - I had a play and it took me bloody AGES to get it back in spec. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

[Teemo]

I wonder if BK Precision 8500 have variable adjusting with knob? The slower you turn the knob, the more adjusting precision you have. If you turn the knob slow, setting changes with really small steps, but if you turn the knob fast, the steps increase. So you can adjust fast and precise. It is not mentioned in datasheet, but this class of equipment logically should have that?

[SeanB]

Bridge rectifier is used as heatsink temperature sensor?

[jamesp15]

I wonder if BK Precision 8500 have variable adjusting with knob? The slower you turn the knob, the more adjusting precision you have. If you turn the knob slow, setting changes with really small steps, but if you turn the knob fast, the steps increase. So you can adjust fast and precise. It is not mentioned in datasheet, but this class of equipment logically should have that?

Yes, the BK Precision 8500 does this. 

[LaurenceW]

Honours to SeanB! The bridge rectifier in the Maynuo/Atten/BK series of electronic loads might be slightly over rated (8A current capacity, while passing only 1mA), but it is indeed a cheap, bolt-on (to the heatsink) linear temperature sensor. It drives the fan(s) according to actual heatsink temp, rather than load, so the fan is not "hunting" all of the time, like it does in some cheap power supplies.

HOWEVER, there is a GOTCHA in the higher power 300W versions of these supplies, wherein two fans and two heatsinks are used, BUT only the one is monitored by a bridge rectifier (temperature sensing diode). If one fan jams on the unmonitored side, the heatsink will get FLIPPIN' HOT with up to 150W being dissipated and no forced ventilation. The electronics won't pick this fault up, and damage will surely result.

Perhaps UNLIKE the BK loads, the Maynuo I have responds linearly incrementally (that is, the current setting changes by twenty steps, for every one complete rotation of the encoder knob), regardless of how fast you flick it. You can easily choose the size of the step (i.e which decimal position is to be incremented or decremented), however.