Author Topic: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 74210 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« on: September 26, 2012, 07:52:22 am »


Dave.
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 09:03:30 am »
5:55 Notice the ferrite bead on the big beefy diode. (Which Dave actually pointed out later. Just scribbliong down thoughts as the video goes along.) Might have something to do with ringing from when the diode switches. A novel replacement for snubber caps?

23:55 I don't like the placement of that crystal. Seems like an IDC connector might apply pressure to it. Would be easy to move it a couple of mm in the other direction, methinks.

27:10 Not digging what your LED lights are doing for the videos, I must say. Maybe you can diffuse the LED strip somehow?

32:52 Sexy spring loaded knobs, eh? Ms EEVBlog: "How COULD you do that to me? What does that scope have that I don't?"

35:10 Does that flat flex split and go both to the LCD and secondary button board?
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline poodyp

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 09:06:50 am »
I wish I knew these existed before I bought a DG1102 a few months ago.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 09:47:16 am »
I wish I knew these existed before I bought a DG1102 a few months ago.
DS1102E?  :o
I love the etching on the Rigol : Beyond Measure, simply love it
 

Offline mickpah

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 09:54:42 am »
I laid down the cash for a DS2072 about foru weeks ago, very happy with it. Feel even better about it now.

Now , if I can just find away to turn those options on & turn up the bandwidth ..............
 

Offline poptones

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 09:57:59 am »
6.3V is a standard heater voltage, but that is AC. For DC heater supplies it's common to use slightly less.
 

Offline mickpah

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 09:59:31 am »
looks like Rigol like your work too Dave. They already have a link to your video on their site.
 
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/


Bet they aren't so quick when the hacks appear ! :)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 10:04:58 am »
looks like Rigol like your work too Dave. They already have a link to your video on their site.
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/
Bet they aren't so quick when the hacks appear ! :)

The hack has appeared on their site!
I suspect these video links are auto-generated some how.

Dave.
 

Offline notsob

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 10:05:36 am »
Dave, if you can't find some old diffuser from a fluoro panel to cut up, this may be of use to diffuse your led panel lighting so it doesn't affect your videos

https://www.inventables.com/technologies/light-diffuser-film-rolls
 

Offline dkozel

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 10:43:04 am »
I picked up a DS2102 and have definitely been enjoying it. I'm looking forward to Dave's look at the UI/functionality. There are certainly a few quirks in it.

I noticed that the one being reviewed didn't flash the 36 hour demo screen. Its promising that the sample memory depth is software set (up to 54 Mpts).
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 10:45:36 am »
6.3V is a standard heater voltage, but that is AC. For DC heater supplies it's common to use slightly less.

6.3V will have been used to clear the dropout voltage for the 1117 LDOs down to 5V.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 11:11:46 am »
Dave, if you can't find some old diffuser from a fluoro panel to cut up, this may be of use to diffuse your led panel lighting so it doesn't affect your videos
https://www.inventables.com/technologies/light-diffuser-film-rolls

I just need to add a remote switch to turn it off and on whenever I have a reflective item like a screen. A diffuser helps, but you'd still get the ugly glare all over the screen from the light directly above.
MY teardown bench has two troff lights either side of it (not directly above), and now two LED strips going the full length.

Dave.
 

Offline JimmySte

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 02:52:24 pm »
Thanks Dave for the teardown... I love my DS2072 tooo much to want to open it up.
One thing I noticed, when you turned the scope on the "welcome" screen with the remaining time for the addons didn't appear,
Is this a demo scope?? or did u pay the extra for them...???
Can't wait to see your review of the UI...
Keep up the good work :)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 02:55:28 pm »
Thanks Dave for the teardown... I love my DS2072 tooo much to want to open it up.
One thing I noticed, when you turned the scope on the "welcome" screen with the remaining time for the addons didn't appear,
Is this a demo scope?? or did u pay the extra for them...???

It seems to be fully optioned up, no time limit on the info screen.
Rigol US gave it to me, I didn't buy it. No idea if it's factory new or a demo unit, like I know the DS815 and function gen were.
I believe all new shipped units come pre-loaded with the trial licenses? To get you used to it, and suck you in. Clever  :)

Dave.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 03:08:42 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 03:00:36 pm »
I've seen those through hole metal loops fail on PC motherboards too. There's quite a bit of force on them.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline notsob

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 03:16:28 pm »
Dave, is the fan a crappy one (noisy) as in the DS1052 or have the opted for a quiet fan ?
 

Offline BigBrother

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 05:00:13 pm »
what's that metal tab poking out in the bottom right corner? security tie-down point?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 05:01:36 pm »
Dave, is the fan a crappy one (noisy) as in the DS1052 or have the opted for a quiet fan ?

I did't notice it much, so I guess it's better.
Have not done a direct comparison though. It appears to be temp controlled.

Dave.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 05:50:25 pm »
Dave, is the fan a crappy one (noisy) as in the DS1052 or have the opted for a quiet fan ?
Slightly cheaper but definitely not chinese crap, noisy but high reliability. Industrial fans are like that
 

Offline poodyp

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 06:13:26 pm »
I just need to add a remote switch to turn it off and on whenever I have a reflective item like a screen. A diffuser helps, but you'd still get the ugly glare all over the screen from the light directly above.
MY teardown bench has two troff lights either side of it (not directly above), and now two LED strips going the full length.

Dave.
Take a gamble, you could even do a teardown for laughs. These things are so cheap I might consider sending one for a mailbag...
DS1102E?
Yeah, that's what I meant. Thankfully it was only $400 and came with a nifty bag, but I think the 2000 series is worth it just for the screen.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 06:28:58 pm »
I just need to add a remote switch to turn it off and on whenever I have a reflective item like a screen. A diffuser helps, but you'd still get the ugly glare all over the screen from the light directly above.
MY teardown bench has two troff lights either side of it (not directly above), and now two LED strips going the full length.

Already had one, now installed. I can now switch the two 3m long 20W LED strip lights above the bench off and on as required for each shot.
I can also RF remote control the two 60W 1200mm x 300mm LED panels that now fill the corner of the lab in front of me (facing camera), and also greatly help to light the bench as well.

Video rendering now on the LED panels, + another one on the LED strip installation coming, and another one of me installing the LED panels in the roof.
+ tons of theory with Doug + something goes bang!

Dave.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 07:52:56 pm »
I just need to add a remote switch to turn it off and on whenever I have a reflective item like a screen. A diffuser helps, but you'd still get the ugly glare all over the screen from the light directly above.
MY teardown bench has two troff lights either side of it (not directly above), and now two LED strips going the full length.

Dave.
Take a gamble, you could even do a teardown for laughs. These things are so cheap I might consider sending one for a mailbag...
DS1102E?
Yeah, that's what I meant. Thankfully it was only $400 and came with a nifty bag, but I think the 2000 series is worth it just for the screen.
I was gonna buy a IR switch too, a WALL mounted one  :P Well, 800$ is plenty good enough for the fast screen and the deep memory is worth another 800$ ... 14Mpts not sure how much to "upgrade" the other 42MB DDRII but there will be hacks soon enough  :P
 

Offline Stephen Hill

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 09:57:28 pm »
So the big question, has anyone hacked this yet to get the full memory?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2012, 10:07:26 pm »
So the big question, has anyone hacked this yet to get the full memory?

Interestingly, it seems that Rigol do not offer a software bandwidth upgrade option. Factory only?

And I think I just realised why it's only 56MB instead of the 64MB chip available - the scope has a waveform record/playback option that can store thousands of waveform. So that's gotta take up that sample memory. Have not confirmed this though.

Dave.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2012, 10:39:38 pm »
Quote
Interestingly, it seems that Rigol do not offer a software bandwidth upgrade option. Factory only?
Maybe they do not, in order not to encourage hacking...
Fact is that the extra memory is already there, probably awaiting to be utilised.

I guess that only a thorough Blackfin firmware disassembly can positively answer that. But who's got the time for that?


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Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2012, 10:57:45 pm »
The Rigol website lists only these options:
SD-DS2 (serial decode)
MEM-DS2 (mem upgrade)
AT-DS2 (advanced triggering)

Dave.
 

Offline LaurenceW

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 11:16:28 pm »
This model must have a lot of the established names CR@PPING themselves. Where do they go, from here?

I think the power supply is custom built for Rigol, by ALPS (see part-covered silk screen printing in bottom left hand corner of the board). No shame in that.
If you don't measure, you don't get.
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2012, 11:25:44 pm »
The Rigol website lists only these options:
SD-DS2 (serial decode)
MEM-DS2 (mem upgrade)
AT-DS2 (advanced triggering)
Yes, Dave, I've seen that. These functions above must be already existing in the firmware, since they can be individually unlocked ("installed") by entering the appropriate "serial numbers."

Additionally, the DS2000 front-end does not seem to be much different to the DS1000 front-end, splitting the input signal into its DC and AC components.

The first front-end 16-pin chip might be a specialised oscilloscope front-end amplifier, like the LMH6518, which is a 900 MHz VGA with a programmable bandwidth limit of 20/100/200/350/650/750 MHz that has a suspiciously identical package to the one the DS2000 seems to have!

The following chip must be a standard high bandwidth Differential Amplifier, like the 1.5 GHz LMH6552.


-George
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:29:05 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
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Offline Eliminateur

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2012, 05:11:28 am »
I've seen those through hole metal loops fail on PC motherboards too. There's quite a bit of force on them.
you didn't check the soldering of those in the back Dave!

and yes, i've seen those crappy loops take off clean in a very expensive RACKED HP server (i think it was a DL380), i put racked in caps because the motherboard lays FLAT, INCREDIBLY didn't shorted out ANYTHING in the MB(i think it shorted the NIC and might have smoked one, can't remember).
When we inspected it, it's as if someone had used a solder sucker on it, probably a very cold bad solder...

So we resoldered them with good old full of tasty lead solder, never moved again :D
 

Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 09:53:29 am »
This model must have a lot of the established names CR@PPING themselves. Where do they go, from here?

I think the power supply is custom built for Rigol, by ALPS (see part-covered silk screen printing in bottom left hand corner of the board). No shame in that.

Not so sure about that!  Take a look at how the price sky rockets when you go up in features and BW

$839 is for 70 MHz
$1140 for 100 MHz
$1625 for 200 MHz
+$222 for serial decode
+$334 for 56MB memory from the standard 14Mb
+$222 for advance trigger options.

So the full 200 MHz version will cost a cool $2403.  That's way above the price of many other hobby grade 200 MHz scopes.   Would I buy the Rigol base model at $839 probably not because of the 70 MHz limit but that's me, for other people 70MHz is fine and they will certainly get better quality with the Rigol vs most other $800 scopes that can do 200 MHz but I needed  a scope that could go past 140MHz and was under $1000 so the Rigol was out for me.



The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 10:38:13 am »
Not so sure about that!  Take a look at how the price sky rockets when you go up in features and BW

$839 is for 70 MHz
$1140 for 100 MHz
$1625 for 200 MHz
+$222 for serial decode
+$334 for 56MB memory from the standard 14Mb
+$222 for advance trigger options.

Yes, it does get pricey.
I can't see too many people buying the 56M upgrade, as 14M is already oodles of memory.
The serial decode might be popular though, and I think reasonably priced.
Advanced trigger is handy, but you can in most cases get by without if needed.
Their real problem is the lack of ability to upgrade the bandwidth after purchase, that sucks.
I guess they didn't want people to be shocked by the $800 it would cost to go from 70-200MHz, and not give them that psychological problem of knowing their scope bandwidth is "crippled" in software. But Agilent decided to go that route.

Dave.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 11:11:40 am »
I am just waiting a couple more decades (or maybe just a few years) until more Chinese vendors will pop up and sell a 200 MHz scope which is plain 200 MHz but at a 70 MHz price point. Because clearly Rigol can make one at a 70 MHz price point, they just don't want to sell it at that because they wouldn't profit as much. I'm pretty sure they make a decent margin on the 70 MHz version. The most expensive things on that scope are probably the Spartan-6 devices at about $35 each, the CPU is probably $10 and the ADC is probably the same... the rest is R&D, other components, assembly, test, support, accessories, and margin...

To be honest, the argument of recovering dev costs back doesn't mean much here. Sure there are slightly more costs in designing a higher bandwidth scope but nowadays it's things like selecting a higher bandwidth buffer amp/VGA, changing a few passives and making the layout cleaner. Maybe with older analog scopes 200 MHz was very difficult to get but nowadays it is done with so few components it's pretty impressively simple.

Agilent and LeCroy better up their game by improving their lower end offerings... it's no longer funny to just slap your name on a Rigol or Atten and double the price. Tek seems to be struggling in the higher end department too. Got to play around with one of their newer scopes at work (I forget the model but I think it is related to the DPO3034.) Compared to the 3000X we also had on evaluation it was slooowwww (menus took ages to pull up, options hidden behind 20 sub menus etc.) the 3000X was nice and responsive, intuitive to use, and a bit cheaper too.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 11:23:15 am »
I am just waiting a couple more decades (or maybe just a few years) until more Chinese vendors will pop up and sell a 200 MHz scope which is plain 200 MHz but at a 70 MHz price point. Because clearly Rigol can make one at a 70 MHz price point, they just don't want to sell it at that because they wouldn't profit as much. I'm pretty sure they make a decent margin on the 70 MHz version. The most expensive things on that scope are probably the Spartan-6 devices at about $35 each, the CPU is probably $10 and the ADC is probably the same... the rest is R&D, other components, assembly, test, support, accessories, and margin...

To be honest, the argument of recovering dev costs back doesn't mean much here. Sure there are slightly more costs in designing a higher bandwidth scope but nowadays it's things like selecting a higher bandwidth buffer amp/VGA, changing a few passives and making the layout cleaner. Maybe with older analog scopes 200 MHz was very difficult to get but nowadays it is done with so few components it's pretty impressively simple.

It's an age old argument, but is costs money to run big corporations that do leading edge R&D like this that deliver us our new scopes, and continue to develop and support them.
That system falls apart if it becomes the "race to the bottom" if they all started cutting each others throats and offering the 200MHz scope for the 70MHz price point etc.
And if it was possible, some OneHungLow design house would have done it and would kill them all. And we can kinda see some attempts at it already in the low end of the market. But it basically doesn't happen because very likely it not as easy or cheap to build these things as you might think.

If you want companies to grow and innovate, they simply have to make bigger margins on their higher end products, that's how it always works. Take that away, and the big players collapse into a heap and we are all left with buying single batch run scopes on AliBaba from OneHungLow at the lowest price point, the lowest quality, and the lowest service and support. Innovation, support, stability, and service goes out the window.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2012, 01:10:02 pm »
Ah, the 128MB of memory mystery is solved I think.
After a quick play with became obvious why it needs such large memory and how it works.
The waveform "capture and replay" feature (which is neat) actually captures the entire sample memory (up to the 14M record length) and stores it for each sample.
So if the timebase is set to give 14M samples (>=500us), you only get 7 waveform captures. Half those samples for dual channel, but same number of captures.
14M x 7 = 98M which fits in to the 128MB of physical memory. There must be some overhead storage requirement that takes up the rest.
Likewise if the timebase is set to 1.4K samples (50ns) you get 65000 waveform captures. 1.4K x 65000 = 91M
And so on for all the timebase/memory depth settings.

So it's not one 64MB chip per channel, it's shared, and sample memory half is two channels are on.

Dave.
 

Offline northlondonsage

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2012, 05:29:08 pm »
Great work, Dave.

Just thought I'd let you know you are appreciated. There's so much effort goes into these and you are getting better and better at them.

Michael
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2012, 02:08:30 am »
It's an age old argument, but is costs money to run big corporations that do leading edge R&D like this that deliver us our new scopes, and continue to develop and support them.
That system falls apart if it becomes the "race to the bottom" if they all started cutting each others throats and offering the 200MHz scope for the 70MHz price point etc.
And if it was possible, some OneHungLow design house would have done it and would kill them all. And we can kinda see some attempts at it already in the low end of the market. But it basically doesn't happen because very likely it not as easy or cheap to build these things as you might think.

The point I'm making is that the R&D is less significant nowadays for a high MHz scope. That's why most basic digital offerings start at 50-100 MHz.  Once you've designed a scope frontend, you can re-use parts of that or the whole of that design. I don't run these companies, so I don't know how significant the costs are. I imagine Rigol will sell a lot of these scopes especially to the education market. I think Agilent and Tek will win larger contracts for companies still - but I wonder how long that will last. I also imagine it's cheaper to hire engineers in China - though I wonder how much cheaper? The engineering on the scopes and other equipment is obviously very good, so there must be first class engineers working at Rigol.

It will be interesting to watch China over the next decade. Patents and copyrights mean very little in China. It results in a lot of copying between companies. But maybe it will end up better for the small fry and the consumer? In the US, many small start-ups have been quashed by patent law. It's also essentially pointless to attempt to protect a patent - the costs are enormous. Patents are held on the most obvious and pointless things - such as the page up/page down patent by Microsoft. Maybe it will turn out that it is better to simply have MORE copying as it leads to more innovation and cheaper products for the customer...
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2012, 02:54:17 am »
Of course, in your mindset 2GS ADCs dont cost anything more than a 1GS ADC? You should know how much it takes to develop a 2GS ADC and a decent high refresh rate display plus the front end.
No no, that doesn't cost anything. Would it? NO!
They used good quality parts here, if you would accept anything from atten i'd say go ahead and waste your money on a crap 200MHz scope if they had one
 

Offline Eliminateur

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2012, 03:36:09 am »
i don't see this new Rigol DS2000 as "young player" or "hobbyist" viable, the price is simply too expensive as base alone, with twice the price of the DS1502 for me it's a no-go, with steep import duties, freight charges and middleman's take a DS2000 barebone 70MHz would end up in excess of 1600 USD

 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2012, 04:00:24 am »
Of course, in your mindset 2GS ADCs dont cost anything more than a 1GS ADC? You should know how much it takes to develop a 2GS ADC and a decent high refresh rate display plus the front end.
No no, that doesn't cost anything. Would it? NO!
They used good quality parts here, if you would accept anything from atten i'd say go ahead and waste your money on a crap 200MHz scope if they had one

Rigol didn't design the ADC, I'm pretty certain it's just a relabelled Analog Devices part (or maybe NatSemi/TI)... they use the same "RAD" labelling as they do on the the AD9288's in the new DS1052E etc. That ADC probably costs a fair bit... more than the $10 I estimated originally... probably as much as the FPGAs ($35 each.) Still looks like there's only about $150-250 in components there, the rest goes to other stuff.

I would certainly not buy something from Atten I'm just saying that it will not be long before you start seeing budget 200 MHz scopes because the extra R&D cost (which nowadays is only a little extra work) is easily outweighed by the extra marketability of the scope. I have a DS1102E myself, it's a fine scope and fairs well compared to its competitors.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2012, 04:15:36 am »
Dude seriously, the AD9286 costs 75 in 250 quantities what about a 2GS ADC?
TI ADC08D1020 477$ in 60 off quantities
What about the higher speed FPGA now? Blackfin DSP? Good LCD? Good PSU? PCB price? Encoders? Design time? Salaries? Shipping? RF Metal shielding? The rising price of DDRII?
No one's paying for the R&D costs. It already looks like rock bottom margins
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2012, 04:25:49 am »
Great tear down.  Compared to another similar one posted there is no comparison, Dave's is a league apart.   Side by side when comparing the Rigol 1052e to its clones, e.g. Atten, clearly there is a edge in Rigol quality and again it shows in this scope.

BTW; in regards to the icon on secretary bird, its the classic pose:

 

It seems so long ago, back in 2009, hi res photos:

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/10/12/eevblog-37-rigol-ds1052e-oscilloscope-teardown/

and hi res DS2000 photos:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157631618295437/

Looks like the heat sink issue is again QC, another reason to favor someone local to you to be able to return it for exchange.  Although you could fix it DIY there is no need too given the warranty. 

Now, the next thing to see, how well its functions.

Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2012, 04:41:15 am »
Dude seriously, the AD9286 costs 75 in 250 quantities what about a 2GS ADC?

It's not a 2GS ADC. It's a dual 1GS ADC, and it does 2GS for one channel, 1GS for two channels. That's what I thought at least. Still a pricey part! No kidding.

Rigol have shown it is possible to make a 1GS ADC for a scope using 5 dual ADC chips with a 1ku cost of $3.44 each. I would not be surprised if they are using a much cheaper part than the 9286. Noise, INL, DNL and all those other expensive specifications are less important in a scope.

I thought the argument/discussion/commentary was over bandwidth anyway... you don't unlock sample rate on this thing...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:49:42 am by tom66 »
 

Offline RFguy

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2012, 11:10:16 am »
So Dave, when will you make us the the honor to watch a review of this babe ?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2012, 12:21:50 pm »
It's not a 2GS ADC. It's a dual 1GS ADC, and it does 2GS for one channel, 1GS for two channels. That's what I thought at least. Still a pricey part! No kidding.

Yes, it drops to 1GS/s with both channels, so the ADC's would be 1GS/s at best.
Wouldn't surprise me it is was a 4 channel 500MS/s and they simply interleaved in the FPGA.
Actually they have to do some interleaving in the FPGA, as the ADC is clearly 1GS/s tops.

Dave.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2012, 09:35:50 pm »
Dude seriously, the AD9286 costs 75 in 250 quantities what about a 2GS ADC?

It's not a 2GS ADC. It's a dual 1GS ADC, and it does 2GS for one channel, 1GS for two channels. That's what I thought at least. Still a pricey part! No kidding.

Rigol have shown it is possible to make a 1GS ADC for a scope using 5 dual ADC chips with a 1ku cost of $3.44 each. I would not be surprised if they are using a much cheaper part than the 9286. Noise, INL, DNL and all those other expensive specifications are less important in a scope.

I thought the argument/discussion/commentary was over bandwidth anyway... you don't unlock sample rate on this thing...
I know that, that's why i filtered for a "Dual 1GS" ADC
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2012, 10:04:07 pm »
The point I'm making is that the R&D is less significant nowadays for a high MHz scope. That's why most basic digital offerings start at 50-100 MHz. 

Once you've designed a scope frontend, you can re-use parts of that or the whole of that design. I don't run these companies, so I don't know how significant the costs are.

There is a lot more to a good scope than just the analog front end, which yes, it's not overly hard for a few hundred MHz if you know what you are doing. That is why there are lot of cheap 200MHz class scopes around.
Notice those two huge FPGA's in the new Rigol scopes? Care to guess how much engineering effort has gone into those?
And I can also say that the UI contains an impressive amount of work in it's own right, perhaps the most work of the entire design?
All this stuff costs a crap load of time and money to produce and innovate, and only the big companies can afford to do it. How? By making those big margins on the higher end units that people like to complain about.
The lesser companies often don't have those same expenses because they are much simpler and more primitive designs in terms of (fast update) systems engineering and UI firmware etc. They are not innovating in terms of R&D. That is why you don't see Tekway or Owon producing a 50K waveform update scope for example.

Quote
The engineering on the scopes and other equipment is obviously very good, so there must be first class engineers working at Rigol.

That's because Rigol have been working hard at it for about 12-13 years now.
Rumour has it that Rigol have hired a bunch of (disillusioned?) Tek guys.

Dave.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2012, 10:05:50 pm »
i don't see this new Rigol DS2000 as "young player" or "hobbyist" viable, the price is simply too expensive as base alone, with twice the price of the DS1502 for me it's a no-go, with steep import duties, freight charges and middleman's take a DS2000 barebone 70MHz would end up in excess of 1600 USD

Really?
Even in Australia I can buy the official 70MHz Rigol DS2000 for around $900 (<US$1000)

Dave.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2012, 11:53:13 pm »
Really?
Even in Australia I can buy the official 70MHz Rigol DS2000 for around $900 (<US$1000)

Dave.
Batronix in Germany has the DS2072 for €710 with free shipping within the EU. That's around 880 Dave dollars.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2012, 01:16:44 am »
It's not a 2GS ADC. It's a dual 1GS ADC, and it does 2GS for one channel, 1GS for two channels. That's what I thought at least. Still a pricey part! No kidding.

Yes, it drops to 1GS/s with both channels, so the ADC's would be 1GS/s at best.
Wouldn't surprise me it is was a 4 channel 500MS/s and they simply interleaved in the FPGA.
Actually they have to do some interleaving in the FPGA, as the ADC is clearly 1GS/s tops.

Dave.

And it may end up cheaper or easier to use an FPGA capable of "only" 500 MHz clock rates, instead of 1 GHz, speed grades and that...

I'm interested that they went for an FPGA for the display processor. It's an obvious choice of course for 50k waveforms per second. Except, does the LCD actually do that many (best case LCD refresh rate is 3-4ms right now), or is it a DPO effect? Also, the FPGA costs $35 in 100 units, I'll bet much less in 1k to 10k - I wonder if Agilent considered it but found ASIC design to be cheaper (thinking they'd get the chips for $5-10, but invest several million in developing it.)

If they hired former Tek engineers, won't they be expecting a similar salary? I was under the impression that salaries would be lower in China. After all, everything else is.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2012, 01:36:55 am »
Nah, the ASICs agilent makes are not cheap.
At least that's the path agilent took since the first megazoom ASIC, and the latest brethen goes from 100k (X2000) to 1M (for the X3000) so yeah
The RIGOLs are not really much cheaper, but by a few hundred bucks
I'm interested in the 4k series guts, it's apparently 110K instead of 50k of the 2k series might be a ASIC maybe?
I bet most of the cost went into designing it, as it looks like quite a lot of time spent
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2012, 01:58:24 am »
I'm interested that they went for an FPGA for the display processor. It's an obvious choice of course for 50k waveforms per second. Except, does the LCD actually do that many (best case LCD refresh rate is 3-4ms right now), or is it a DPO effect? Also, the FPGA costs $35 in 100 units, I'll bet much less in 1k to 10k - I wonder if Agilent considered it but found ASIC design to be cheaper (thinking they'd get the chips for $5-10, but invest several million in developing it.)

My guess would be it does the DPO type stuff too, hence the extra big memory around it. You don't need a memory that big for just a frame buffer et.al.

Quote
If they hired former Tek engineers, won't they be expecting a similar salary? I was under the impression that salaries would be lower in China. After all, everything else is.

They wouldn't go if it wasn't the same or better.
Good technical talent (including programming) is not cheap or easy to get in China.
Ask Altium!  ;D

Dave.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2012, 02:36:44 am »
[quote ]
 Except, does the LCD actually do that many (best case LCD refresh rate is 3-4ms right now), or is it a DPO effect?
[/quote]
It will be using a standard framerate LCD, and combining the results of multiple acquisitions over the LCD frame time to make an intensity map - essentially a per-pixel histogram of the waveform position in each acquisition.
A simple way to think of it is where a traditional scope just sets a particular pixel in the display memory, a DPO type scope increments it, and does so for every acquisition which can be many times per displayed frame.
Another aspect is that at slower sweep speeds, where there is more than one sample per pixel, it can potentially combine multiple samples into the intensity of each pixel.

The intensity control then controls the scaling of the accumulated pixel values to the displayed pixel intensity.
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Offline slash2

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2012, 10:44:54 am »
I'm wondering if the 'tape' you saw on the clock chip might be a piece of ferrite for noise reduction? Makes sense on a clock chip.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2012, 08:19:03 am »
As I already wrote in my response to the “EEVblog #360 – Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown” video, the input stage can easily be demystified and is very common.
The programmable gain amplifier seems to be a re-labeled LMH6518 with a MMBFJ309 (JFET) followed by a MMBTH10L (VHF amp 650MHz).
The circuit is close to what is given in the datasheet of the PGA/VGA and is often used in low cost and midrange DSOs. I expect that none of the Rigol labeled ICs is something special.
Bandwidth limitation seems to be definied only by the programmed value inside the LMH6518 (20/100/200/350/650/750MHz or full bandwidth), no varactor diode or anything else.
I wonder why they don't use something like the NE3508M04 with much lower noise figure. They could have benefit from the developments on the Welec DSO project.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2012, 08:44:06 am »
The programmable gain amplifier seems to be a re-labeled LMH6518 with a MMBFJ309 (JFET) followed by a MMBTH10L (VHF amp 650MHz).
The circuit is close to what is given in the datasheet of the PGA/VGA and is often used in low cost and midrange DSOs. I expect that none of the Rigol labeled ICs is something special.
Bandwidth limitation seems to be definied only by the programmed value inside the LMH6518 (20/100/200/350/650/750MHz or full bandwidth), no varactor diode or anything else.

That will explain the selectable 100MHz (and 20MHz) bandwidth limits in the software, but does not explain the 70MHz bandwidth model?

Dave.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2012, 08:51:58 am »
Is it possible Rigol have learned their lesson with the DS1052/1102E hacking and there are actual physical differences between the models?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2012, 08:59:09 am »
Is it possible Rigol have learned their lesson with the DS1052/1102E hacking and there are actual physical differences between the models?

The evidence seems to be starting to point in that direction.
i.e.
a) they do not offer it as an upgrade option, even though they have gone that router for all other features.
b) If the chip is as branadic claims, then they must be doing something else physical for the 70MHz limit. I can't believe they do it as a software implemented limit.

But different hardware doesn't make sense from a construction point of view, it adds to the cost. That is why most companies have gone the identical hardware route.
It's all rather confusing.

Dave.
 

Offline andersm

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2012, 09:24:38 am »
Is it possible Rigol have learned their lesson with the DS1052/1102E hacking and there are actual physical differences between the models?
I would assume they've gone to some length to prevent upgrade hacks. The DS2000 costs enough that the loss of the price difference will be felt, but at the same time there won't be enough sales to make up for it.

Offline drieg

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2012, 09:56:45 am »
Is it possible Rigol have learned their lesson with the DS1052/1102E hacking and there are actual physical differences between the models?
No there aren't , doesn't worth, trust me ;)

a) they do not offer it as an upgrade option, even though they have gone that router for all other features.
Not yet, but there will be "100M BandWidth" and "200M BandWidth" upgrade options available for DS2
(..and "Bandwidth 200M", "Bandwidth 350M" and "Bandwidth 500M" for DS4).
Bricked Rigol? This thread might be of any help.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2012, 10:14:35 am »
I would assume they've gone to some length to prevent upgrade hacks. The DS2000 costs enough that the loss of the price difference will be felt, but at the same time there won't be enough sales to make up for it.

At the beginning of the product lifecycle (after all the research and development), it likely would slow down their recouping of investment costs if people were buying lower BW models and hacking them into higher bandwidth ones. But once they've made their initial money back, I'm not sure that a hack doesn't help them more than hurt them. I can't imagine how many extra DS1052Es Rigol sold (taking prospective customers away from other brands) with the revelation of the hack - and the possibility of 'free' BW.
 

Offline andersm

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2012, 11:17:10 am »
I can't imagine how many extra DS1052Es Rigol sold (taking prospective customers away from other brands) with the revelation of the hack - and the possibility of 'free' BW.
Probably quite a lot, but even the 70MHz model is too expensive for the more casual hobbyist market that went after the DS1052s.

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2012, 06:05:54 pm »

That will explain the selectable 100MHz (and 20MHz) bandwidth limits in the software, but does not explain the 70MHz bandwidth model?

There are a few unassembled parts between the mystic Rigol labeled LMH6518 and the differential gain amp, the filter section, maybe this section is assembled in the 70MHz Version? As I already wrote, I can't find any varactor.
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Offline tlu

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #62 on: October 30, 2012, 11:34:06 am »

That will explain the selectable 100MHz (and 20MHz) bandwidth limits in the software, but does not explain the 70MHz bandwidth model?

There are a few unassembled parts between the mystic Rigol labeled LMH6518 and the differential gain amp, the filter section, maybe this section is assembled in the 70MHz Version? As I already wrote, I can't find any varactor.

So, do you believe it is software implemented?
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2012, 09:16:01 am »
I'm not sure if it is just software defined, I'm still looking for that.
Today a Rigol DS2072 test device arrived. I took a deeper look onto the circuit and found some further interesting news.
The parts between the relabeled LMH6518 and the garbled IC are also not assembled,  so this is not the answer for the bandwidth limitation. The garbled IC's output directly inputs the ADC, there seems to be nothing in between.
Interesting is, that by wetting the garbled IC with some Isoporopanol I found the marking "21AB" (some Rigol code?) and "6552". It's obvious that if they use a relabled LMH6518 (today a TI product) the garbled IC also is a TI one. Also the package seems to be some TI special, which they call 8WSON. Bingo, there is a fully differential opamp from TI named LMH6552, that matches the package, the pinning and the code fragment "6552".
Also interesting is, that the ADC08DL502 from TI (Low Power, 8-Bit, Dual 500 MSPS A/D Converter) seems to match the 144LQFP pinning of the Rigol labeled one. Is this again an overclocked device?

branadic
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 07:28:24 pm by branadic »
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Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2012, 09:24:41 am »
The clock source is identified. Rigol has milled or etched the surface of the LFCSP-packaged IC. The package identifies, that this could be some IC fron Analog Devices. By knowing what you're searching for I found that the pinning matches the ADF4360 and I would expect that it is a ADF4360-7, to provide a 1GHz differential clock source.
By the way, the datasheet of the ADC08DL502 mentions the guaranteed performance with a differential clock of 1GHz. With the fact that the pcb is full of TI labled ICs it's nearly 100% sure that the ADC is also a TI product.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:25:19 pm by branadic »
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Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2012, 10:10:43 am »
If it helps, the "B7A" chip is likely this:
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/AD8510_8512_8513.pdf

Same as on the DS1052E.
 

Offline TRIO_Smartcal

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2012, 12:55:58 pm »
I can't imagine how many extra DS1052Es Rigol sold (taking prospective customers away from other brands) with the revelation of the hack - and the possibility of 'free' BW.
Probably quite a lot, but even the 70MHz model is too expensive for the more casual hobbyist market that went after the DS1052s.
If you just looking for something basic and inexpensive try this.
 http://triosmartcal.com.au/1764-uq2062c-digital-oscilloscope-60-mhz-500-msas.html
We've got about 5 left. They are nothing special but they work OK.
A 60MHz scope with a locally supported warranty is not bad for what we are selling it for. There a Silicon Chip review on it too.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:17:29 pm by TRIO_Smartcal »
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Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2012, 07:38:13 pm »
That doesn't have intensity graduation, high sampling rate or high waveform capture rate... you may as well buy a DS1052E.
 

Offline TRIO_Smartcal

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2012, 09:59:07 pm »
You have a point.  The price is lowered. Thanks for the suggestion.  :)
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2012, 11:00:55 pm »
Also interesting is, that the ADC08DL502 from TI (Low Power, 8-Bit, Dual 500 MSPS A/D Converter) seems to match the 144LQFP pinning of the Rigol labeled one. Is this again an overclocked device?
I'm not quite sure how they could overclock to double the 500 MS/s rate.  It's quite possible that Rigol has taken a page from Owon's success with the SDS series and is rebadging the Ruifeng MXT2001 ADCs (http://www.fjrfdz.com/e_products3.asp?ProId=99) - which are a 1GS/s pinout-compatible 'clone' to TI's ADC08D500 series, slightly noisier, but much cheaper (http://www.fjrfdz.com/download/MXT2001.pdf). That would provide the 2x 1GS/s for the interleaved 2GS/s single channel rate. Extensive tests run on the Owon SDS scopes seem to prove they work very well to specifications.

I think it's fairly clear by now that the entire DS2000 series is identical hardware - just firmware-locked to specific bandwidths.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:17:57 pm by marmad »
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2012, 01:20:59 am »
I don't fully agree that, because the DS2000 series comes with "reduced noise" (~500µVpp in the smallest vertical diversion), what is contrary to what you've mentioned about MXT2001 and it's higher noise compared to the ADC08DL502.
By the way, we may can expect that the MXT2001 is not just pin compatible, but exactly the same core out of the same asian factory?

http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?genericPartNumber=adc08dl502&fileType=pdf

Quote: "...Although the ADC08DL502 is tested and its performance is guaranteed with a differential 1 GHz clock, it typically will function well with input clock frequencies indicated in the Converter Electrical Characteristics.... Operation up to the sample rates indicated in the Converter Electrical Characteristics is typically possible if the maximum ambient temperatures indicated are not exceeded. Operating at higher sample rates than indicated for the given ambient temperature may result in reduced device reliability and product lifetime. This is because of the higher power consumption and die temperatures at high sample rates. Important also for reliability is proper thermal management..."

Quote
- just firmware-locked to specific bandwidths
I have to verify the real bandwidth of the device, because in the LMH6518 there is  20 / 100 / 200 / 350 / ... MHz selectable, but not 70MHz and up to now I couldn't find any limiting filter stage or varactor circuit.
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2012, 01:59:50 am »
I don't fully agree that, because the DS2000 series comes with "reduced noise" (~500µVpp in the smallest vertical diversion), what is contrary to what you've mentioned about MXT2001 and it's higher noise compared to the ADC08DL502. By the way, we may can expect that the MXT2001 is not just pin compatible, but exactly the same core out of the same asian factory?

You could well be right. I hadn't looked through the specs of the MXT2001 myself - only heard about it from others. A quick check of a couple of stats vs. the ADC08DL502:

SINAD Signal-to-Noise Plus Distortion Ratio (Typ):
ADC08DL502:  AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 47.6 dB
MXT2001:      AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 46 db

SNR Signal-to-Noise Ratio (Typ):
ADC08DL502:    AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 48.5 dB
MXT2001:       AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 47 dB

Quote
I have to verify the real bandwidth of the device, because in the LMH6518 there is  20 / 100 / 200 / 350 / ... MHz selectable, but not 70MHz and up to now I couldn't find any limiting filter stage or varactor circuit.

So perhaps there is actually no discernible difference between the 70MHz and 100MHz models (since the 2ns timebase setting and 100MHz BW filter only appear on the DS2202 model)? The only difference in specs that I see from the manual (aside, of course, from the BW) is the calculated rise time - which would just be calculated from the 'advertised' BW.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 02:04:34 am by marmad »
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2012, 02:35:59 am »
Perhaps there -is- no difference between the 70 MHz and 100 MHz models, they're both 100 MHz?? Conspiracy???
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2012, 06:03:01 am »
Let the professional chip crackers loose on a new rigol and this happens ...  ::)
Good job guys
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2012, 07:03:50 am »

I have to verify the real bandwidth of the device, because in the LMH6518 there is  20 / 100 / 200 / 350 / ... MHz selectable, but not 70MHz and up to now I couldn't find any limiting filter stage or varactor circuit.

I wonder if there a digital low pass filter implemented in the fpga..  seems like that would be an easy thing (edit: easy for Rigol) to turn on/off in the firmware.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:28:25 am by zibadun »
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2012, 10:55:09 am »
Quote
I wonder if there a digital low pass filter implemented in the fpga..  seems like that would be an easy thing (edit: easy for Rigol) to turn on/off in the firmware.

Could be a possible way, something like an FIR in particular a polyphase filter or IIR filter is typical.

But right now I'm a little bit confused. It seems, that my 70MHz device delivers the full 200MHz bandwidth and the real limiting factor is the delivered probe (1x 8MHz, 10x 350MHz) itself.
I today connected a 50MHz XO91 quartz oszillator via BNC connector. The signal I can see on the screen is not what I would expect. Instead of the fundamental 50MHz with trend to a triangle waveform, I can see a nice square-wave (see 50MHz Oscillator 1.png).
Probing the same source with the probe the signal looks different (see 50MHz Oscillator 2.png).
From this point of view it makes completly no sense to pay USD 1789.- for the DS2202 instead of USD 925.- for the DS2072 and the search for a bandwidth limiting circuit was wasted time.

branadic
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2012, 11:04:58 am »
But right now I'm a little bit confused. It seems, that my 70MHz device delivers the full 200MHz bandwidth and the real limiting factor is the delivered probe (1x 8MHz, 10x 350MHz) itself.

Isn't the LMH6518 programmed to at least limit the bandwidth to 100MHz in the 70MHz model?
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2012, 04:22:34 pm »

But right now I'm a little bit confused. It seems, that my 70MHz device delivers the full 200MHz bandwidth and the real limiting factor is the delivered probe (1x 8MHz, 10x 350MHz) itself.


This is interesting.  I just did an FFT on 19 mhz square wave with a sharp rise and it shows harmonics well into 200 MHz...    This is with the stock probe at 10x.    So I'm not sure either where does the 70 MHz limit come into play.. :-//

« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 04:24:35 pm by zibadun »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2012, 05:10:02 pm »
Someone really needs to input a 200MHz sine wave into a 70MHz input and confirm the attenuation.
I can't believe the 70Mz or 100Mhz would be -3dB down at 200MHz  ???
I'm also assuming the 200MHz version would have some faster timebase settings too?

Dave.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2012, 06:08:30 pm »
Taken direct from the datasheet
DS2202: 2 ns/div to 1000 s/div
DS2102/DS2072: 5 ns/div to 1000 s/div
So ...  :-// Your mileage may vary
But 1000s is sheer performance ... you'll probably be sitting there like a corpse waiting for a refresh
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 06:10:52 pm by T4P »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2012, 07:01:59 pm »
I'm also assuming the 200MHz version would have some faster timebase settings too?

I believe the 2ns timebase setting and the 100MHz BW limiter are the only two firmware differences between the DS2202 and the DS2102/2072.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:03:53 pm by marmad »
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2012, 11:04:20 pm »
I today supplied my 3-channel programmable PLL board based on the CDCE913 to the DS2072. Channel 1 is programmed for 100MHz and channel 2 for 200MHz.
Attached is the behavior of the scope today. I explicit say today because  I found  a curios behavior. I remember that I yesterday were able to choose 56Mpoints with one channel active for a short time and were able to sample 28ms with the full 2GS, what I found amazing. Today this is again limited to 14Mpoints for one channel active.
I also could have sweared that the frequency response yesterday was different than today. Seems that the devil is inside the scope.  >:D
Today I will modify one of my DIY 500MHz 10:1 active FET probes into an AC probe and follow the signals inside. Maybe I can find the devil.
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Offline T4P

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2012, 01:31:57 am »
56Mpts at full speed?! Many people here thought it was a gimmick ... nope it's not. Seems like DDR2 was a good idea, instead of using slow SDRAM and then there's DDR3 ...
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2012, 02:48:33 am »
Doesn't DDR2 have a 64-bit wide data bus? So they can pump data on each clock edge, 8 bytes at a time. Even using basic 125MHz DDR2 they'd reach the required capture rate. I think the limiting factor now is ADC cost and the FPGA.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2012, 03:12:14 am »
I remember that I yesterday were able to choose 56Mpoints with one channel active for a short time and were able to sample 28ms with the full 2GS, what I found amazing. Today this is again limited to 14Mpoints for one channel active.

I have no problem selecting 56MPts with one channel at the moment - but I have noticed some quirkiness in the scope's behavior regarding sample depth choices when switching between the AUTO memory selection (or features which automatically cause  memory reconfiguring - such as Record Open - or - turning on and off channels) and manual selection. Sometimes the available memory choices seem 'stuck' based on the last group of known parameters - rather than the current. I haven't pinned this down yet to a demonstrable repeatable bug.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 03:17:57 am by marmad »
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2012, 03:22:47 am »
Quote
56Mpts at full speed?! Many people here thought it was a gimmick ... nope it's not.

DS4000 and DS6000 series comes with 140Mpts in standard configuration, while DS2000 series has 14Mpts in standard configuration and 56Mpts optional.
Would be interesting to teardown the 4000 series.  The 2000 series is very nice, it's sad that this is just a 2 channel scope. The screen is also a perfect choice in size. To say it with the words of Dave: "I love it."
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2012, 03:34:40 am »
To say it with the words of Dave: "I love it."

Me too. My biggest complaint with it is the idiotic bit of code which clears the waveform from the display prior to executing commands which resize/move it. I just can't figure out if this is really just a (bad) choice by Rigol programmers to do it this way (as Rigol claims) - or is somehow dictated by the hardware configuration.
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2012, 06:10:27 am »
I have no problem selecting 56MPts with one channel at the moment

that option is due to expire on mine in 20 hours.  oh well...
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2012, 06:14:59 am »
If you take out the clock battery, does it forget that it's due to expire?

Perhaps if one were to blob a little solder across the 32kHz xtal, the xtal would stop, and the clock wouldn't tick? You'd get inaccurate time/date elsewhere of course, but I don't think that's vitally important.

Dave, do you still have the DS2000 and the Marconi signal generator? Time to verify the actual bandwidth limits like you did with the Agilent, and found the 500MHz to have decent response up to 640MHz?
 

Offline Astroplio

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2012, 06:25:04 am »
I remember that I yesterday were able to choose 56Mpoints with one channel active for a short time and were able to sample 28ms with the full 2GS, what I found amazing. Today this is again limited to 14Mpoints for one channel active.
I also could have sweared that the frequency response yesterday was different than today. Seems that the devil is inside the scope.  >:D

Did you run a self-cal in the meantime? Someone else reported on an other thread that if you do that the trial version for the options expire! :-(

 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2012, 06:39:40 am »
Did you run a self-cal in the meantime? Someone else reported on an other thread that if you do that the trial version for the options expire! :-(
Good point - I didn't think to wonder if he'd done a self-cal since I had assumed he knew about the bug; it's mentioned in at least 3 separate threads here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg161118/#msg161118

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds-2072-noise-problem/msg141050/#msg141050
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2012, 08:46:45 am »
Quote
Did you run a self-cal in the meantime?

Yes I did when the scopes received and after warm-up. The 56Mpoint option returns from time to time and disappears again.
From time to time I also have the problem, that after power on the whole screen is full of noisy signal. When I than change vertical division so that one of the relays of the input attenuator clicks everythings working fine upon here.
I wasn't able to measure the real bandwidth incircuit at all, also with my active probe modified to an 1x ac active probe.
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2012, 08:58:23 am »
From time to time I also have the problem, that after power on the whole screen is full of noisy signal. When I than change vertical division so that one of the relays of the input attenuator clicks everythings working fine upon here.

I haven't seen my DS2072 ever do this - perhaps one of your relays (or something else) is slightly malfunctioning.

The 56Mpoint option returns from time to time and disappears again.

This sounds random - or is there a pattern?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 09:00:32 am by marmad »
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2012, 09:02:54 am »
Noisy signal? Ouch...


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2012, 09:29:55 am »
Quote
I haven't seen my DS2072 ever do this - perhaps one of your relays (or something else) is slightly malfunctioning.

I don't think it's the relay. The mailfunction is preindicated while booting, the buzzer makes no sound while booting in this case.
By the way, the software version is 00.00.01, what is your's?.
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2012, 09:39:54 am »
By the way, the software version is 00.00.01, what is your's?.

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version:  1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

To get the full version information, go to the trigger menu and set Edge, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility button combination quickly. Then check additional info under System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2012, 09:58:31 am »
Okay, interesting. I have the following:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware version:  1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

Seems your software is somewhat newer. Is there a way to get new software into the device and if so, where can I get the latest version?
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2012, 10:06:05 am »
Seems your software is somewhat newer. Is there a way to get new software into the device and if so, where can I get the latest version?
You should definitely upgrade your software - there is a bug in 01.00.02 which can cause the scope to become bricked (useless) due to memory writing errors (read this message: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700)

You need to contact your dealer (or Rigol directly) for a copy of the newest firmware.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2012, 12:01:39 am »
Thanks, I today received the latest firmware (00.00.01.00.05) and will update tonight.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2012, 12:03:27 am »
I heard the new official firmware is another 3 weeks away.

Dave.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2012, 12:41:05 am »
I heard the new official firmware is another 3 weeks away.

They will either need to substantially fix the wave moving/resizing 'problem'  - or add at least one smashing new feature - to get me to upgrade.  01.00.05 seems to allow trial options to go on indefinitely  :)
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2012, 06:41:02 am »
Update was successful. It seems that the boot problem is now gone, but the options also. I can't select the menu "installed" and deep memory with 56Mpts is no longer available :(
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2012, 09:50:41 am »
I can't select the menu "installed"...

You mean it's completely grayed out?
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2012, 12:20:25 pm »
Thanks, I today received the latest firmware (00.00.01.00.05) and will update tonight.

my US dealer didn't know about the new firmware and said I need to ask rigolna for the update.  Contacted Rigol and got no response. There is no firmware under product downloads either.    |O   So I'm curious who did you go through branadic?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2012, 01:07:31 pm »
my US dealer didn't know about the new firmware and said I need to ask rigolna for the update.  Contacted Rigol and got no response. There is no firmware under product downloads either.    |O   So I'm curious who did you go through branadic?

It's not really 'new' firmware - it's the last release (already installed on my scope when I got it about 4 weeks ago). You bought your scope a couple of weeks after I did - I would think you would have 01.00.05 already installed, no?
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2012, 01:28:00 pm »
It's not really 'new' firmware - it's the last release (already installed on my scope when I got it about 4 weeks ago). You bought your scope a couple of weeks after I did - I would think you would have 01.00.05 already installed, no?

it was on a backorder and finally arrived last Friday.  The certificate has June 15th date and the levels are the same as branadic had (02 software). May be I should try calling them again...
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2012, 01:34:17 pm »
it was on a backorder and finally arrived last Friday.  The certificate has June 15th date and the levels are the same as branadic had (02 software). May be I should try calling them again...

And you checked extended Sys Info (as mentioned in prev.msg) with F7-F6-F7-Utility key combo? Well, if you do have the older version, I think branadic (or anyone else with a copy) could provide you with the firmware, because I don't think Rigol locks them to specific serial numbers (at least they didn't with the 1000E series).
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2012, 06:51:49 pm »
You mean it's completely grayed out? [/quote]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant and memory is selectable only up to 14Mpts.
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Offline drieg

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2012, 11:12:01 pm »
Please remember, if you have 00.00.01.00.02, you have to do firmware update during boot process only. Doing it from the menu / normal operation will ruin some important data. DO NOT DO IT!
Bricked Rigol? This thread might be of any help.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2012, 05:11:04 am »
Please remember, if you have 00.00.01.00.02, you have to do firmware update during boot process only. Doing it from the menu / normal operation will ruin some important data. DO NOT DO IT!

Was this adressed to me? If yes, I remembered that.
I have to add that all options have expired before I updated the firmware. Maybe this is the reason why menu "option --> installed"  is grayed out?
Fluke 8050A | Prema 5000 | Prema 5017 SC | Advantest R6581D | GenRad 1434-G | Datron 4000A | Tek 2465A | VNWA2.x with TCXO upgrade and access to: Keysight 3458A, Keithley 2002, Prema 5017 SC, 34401A, 34410A, Keithley 2182A, HDO6054, Keysight 53230A and other goodies at work
 

Offline zibadun

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #110 on: November 22, 2012, 12:25:24 am »
Thanks to branadic, drieg and marmad my 2072 is now running the 05 version of software. The trial options did not go away (they were not expired prior to the upgrade), but I'm getting into habit of turning off the scope to conserve trial minutes.
 

Offline billclay

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #111 on: November 22, 2012, 07:20:52 am »
...I'm getting into habit of turning off the scope to conserve trial minutes.

Does the trial time only count down while the scope has power, or has power and "soft off"?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2012, 07:22:30 am »
Does the trial time only count down while the scope has power, or has power and "soft off"?

Only when booted up and running.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2012, 08:19:09 am »
Does it have a clock battery -- would removing it reset trials?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2012, 10:10:39 am »
Does it have a clock battery -- would removing it reset trials?

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to void my 3 year warranty on an $850 item on the off chance that it might work - but I'm fine if someone else wants to give it a try  :)  But it does seem rather a simple (and thus preventable by Rigol) solution.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #115 on: November 26, 2012, 06:36:42 am »
Are there pictures from the inside of the DS4xxx or DS6xxx available? Someone out there with a teardown?
Fluke 8050A | Prema 5000 | Prema 5017 SC | Advantest R6581D | GenRad 1434-G | Datron 4000A | Tek 2465A | VNWA2.x with TCXO upgrade and access to: Keysight 3458A, Keithley 2002, Prema 5017 SC, 34401A, 34410A, Keithley 2182A, HDO6054, Keysight 53230A and other goodies at work
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #116 on: November 26, 2012, 07:19:25 am »
The best we're going to get is the declassification diagrams showing the locations of the memory in the device.
http://www.rigolna.com/download/501G00000001OMwIAM/

Interestingly, there appears to be an LA SRAM for the DS1000D series... so maybe that's why people haven't been able to add digital features.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 07:20:59 am by tom66 »
 

Offline Sparky

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #117 on: December 02, 2012, 09:13:26 am »
Help!

I've just tried to update my DS2072 with the 01.00.05 firmware.  I attempted to update during the boot process as described here, but was unsuccessful.  I now have the system stuck at 60% update...

Please see my post here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg167744/#msg167744

Hope someone can recommend a next step.
 

Offline Sparky

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #118 on: December 02, 2012, 10:03:24 am »
Luckily, I managed to get the firmware updated, but lost trial options.  Details are in the thread I mentioned above.
 

Offline Sparky

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #119 on: December 02, 2012, 11:16:26 am »
Please remember, if you have 00.00.01.00.02, you have to do firmware update during boot process only. Doing it from the menu / normal operation will ruin some important data. DO NOT DO IT!

@drieg, could you elaborate on "ruin some important data"? 

As per my recent posts, I could not get the boot update to work initially, and as I then had a failed update from GUI before I got the system working, I've now lost the trial options.  I'm concerned that my system factory calibration (not self-cal), and possibly other info, is valid/intact.  My serial number remains correct.

Will appreciate your comments.
 

Offline drieg

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2012, 01:08:04 pm »
Please remember, if you have 00.00.01.00.02, you have to do firmware update during boot process only. Doing it from the menu / normal operation will ruin some important data. DO NOT DO IT!

@drieg, could you elaborate on "ruin some important data"? 

As per my recent posts, I could not get the boot update to work initially, and as I then had a failed update from GUI before I got the system working, I've now lost the trial options.  I'm concerned that my system factory calibration (not self-cal), and possibly other info, is valid/intact.  My serial number remains correct.

Will appreciate your comments.
Check my answer here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 01:24:52 pm by drieg »
Bricked Rigol? This thread might be of any help.
 

Offline branadic

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2012, 07:15:40 pm »
I heard the new official firmware is another 3 weeks away.

Dave.

What about the new firmware? Is there anything official yet?
Fluke 8050A | Prema 5000 | Prema 5017 SC | Advantest R6581D | GenRad 1434-G | Datron 4000A | Tek 2465A | VNWA2.x with TCXO upgrade and access to: Keysight 3458A, Keithley 2002, Prema 5017 SC, 34401A, 34410A, Keithley 2182A, HDO6054, Keysight 53230A and other goodies at work
 

Offline srt8-in-largo

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #122 on: January 07, 2013, 09:42:23 am »
56Mpts at full speed?! Many people here thought it was a gimmick ... nope it's not. Seems like DDR2 was a good idea, instead of using slow SDRAM and then there's DDR3 ...

Just to clarify, DDR2 uses SDRAM. I suspect this to be a typo and should read "... instead of using slow SRAM..."
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2013, 04:33:09 am »
I don't fully agree that, because the DS2000 series comes with "reduced noise" (~500µVpp in the smallest vertical diversion), what is contrary to what you've mentioned about MXT2001 and it's higher noise compared to the ADC08DL502. By the way, we may can expect that the MXT2001 is not just pin compatible, but exactly the same core out of the same asian factory?

You could well be right. I hadn't looked through the specs of the MXT2001 myself - only heard about it from others. A quick check of a couple of stats vs. the ADC08DL502:

SINAD Signal-to-Noise Plus Distortion Ratio (Typ):
ADC08DL502:  AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 47.6 dB
MXT2001:      AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 46 db

SNR Signal-to-Noise Ratio (Typ):
ADC08DL502:    AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 48.5 dB
MXT2001:       AIN = 248 MHz @ -0.5dBFS 47 dB

it is for sure MXT2001, ADC08D502 looks complettly different (i have them here and they looks exact the same as ADC08D500 on the picture), where MXT2002 in Owon looks like the unknown ADC used in Rigol. Just check the markers on picture.

Antoher confirmation is the fact that Owon is using now NS/TI ADCs insted of RuiFeng, Rigol is bigger so probobaly RuiFeng was happy to kick out Owon.


I don't fully agree that, because the DS2000 series comes with "reduced noise"

which as we know today didn't mean anything, others (e.g. Tekway, Hameg) have similar noise level on 2mV and 5mV,
Rigol simply added these extra ranges. Sure, they would be not possible with the AD8370/LHM6552 as used in DS1000E,
and it would get distorted too much by 10 interleaved ADCs, this is now complettly different with LMH6518 and one (die) ADC.

So a littlebit looks like Rigol learned from Hameg that is it enough to advertise "low / reduced noise"^^
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I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2013, 04:48:50 am »
it is for sure MXT2001, ADC08D502 looks complettly different (i have them here and they looks exact the same as ADC08D500 on the picture), where MXT2002 in Owon looks like the unknown ADC used in Rigol. Just check the markers on picture.

Sorry, this doesn't prove it definitively - markings change on dies sometimes.

Quote
Antoher confirmation is the fact that Owon is using now NS/TI ADCs insted of RuiFeng, Rigol is bigger so probobaly RuiFeng was happy to kick out Owon.

Again - this doesn't confirm anything. In fact, saying Owon is using a much more expensive chip in much cheaper DSOs could be an argument as well for Rigol using an NS/TI in more expensive DSOs - perhaps it proves that RuiFeng's ADCs or delivery are unreliable.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 05:39:06 am by marmad »
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2013, 05:09:59 am »
it is for sure MXT2001, ADC08D502 looks complettly different (i have them here and they looks exact the same as ADC08D500 on the picture), where MXT2002 in Owon looks like the unknown ADC used in Rigol. Just check the markers on picture.

Sorry, this doesn't prove it definitively - markings change on dies sometimes.


of course it does, but when you don't trust me check pin2, if that pin is connected to pin 3 in your DSO then yo have ADC08DL502, if it's not connected (which is what i know) then MXT2001 has been used. You can check as well pin 47, currently it is connected to pin 48/GND - which is ok for both ADCs. However, when you lift up that pin on MXT2001, it will still works (and you can check the interconection between that pin and other gnd pins). On ADC08DL502 the firmware would lose control over ADC, and of course no connection to other GND will be there.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline ted572

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #126 on: December 04, 2013, 03:44:17 am »
DS2000 Oscilloscope - 121 VAC Power Consumption:

Measurements are considered approximate due to uncertainty of measurement equipment accuracy, although should be very useful as general figure of merit.

Standby Mode (AC plugged in, OFF)
   W    0.5
   VA     7
   A      0.06
   PF    0.15

Operating Mode (Power ON)
   W     26
   VA   28
   A      0.23
   PF    0.94
 

Offline cosmos

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Re: EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #127 on: December 04, 2013, 07:54:45 am »

it is for sure MXT2001, ADC08D502 looks complettly different (i have them here and they looks exact the same as ADC08D500 on the picture), where MXT2002 in Owon looks like the unknown ADC used in Rigol. Just check the markers on picture.


I agree with Tinhead here, it really looks like it could be the MXT2002 (or a sister part with same pinout) used as ADC in both DS2k and DS4k.
I agree, but NOT based on the markings from the plastic mould, but because of matching when comparing the pinning of the MXT2002 datasheet with the routing of tracks in both the DS2000 and the DS4000 teardown videos.
I can not find one place where tracks go where they should not go, every place there is a routed diff pair or vias looking like it is a start of a pair it goes to to pins that are also pairs on the MXT2002.
The few exceptions to the paired track routing are for signals that are either GND, VDR  or VA (routed wider than signals also fits with it being power) or are logic control signals from series termination resistors (SCLK, SDATA, SC) or other single signals.
To get 4Gsps in the DS4k one would combine 2 of these ADCs clocked at 1000MHz on one channel (4 separate ADCs interleaved).
MXT2002 has two input ports and seems to have internal SW controlled muxes so cross routing two channels to get double sample rate from two of these ADCs should be simple.
Operating an MXT2002 at 1000MHz is already over clocking vs the 500MHz to 800MHz mentioned in the datasheet.
I start to doubt if MXT2002 can be used also in the DS6k (@1250MHz) but it may still be a possibility.

Edit: Just noticed there is a 1-1.3GHz version of the same (MTX2001) so no overclock needed for that, and it also then fits the DS6k sample rate.
Edit2 : Did not see until now how closely the pinning matches other types (should investigate better then write), still tinheads comment about pin 2 not being connected to GND looks sound so MTX2001 might still be correct.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 09:16:19 am by cosmos »
 


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