Author Topic: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around  (Read 58958 times)

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Offline JOHNJB

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2012, 08:42:25 pm »
I have a new DS2102 tree weeks ago.
I lost the time in trial options at firs calibrate.
I've receive from Rigol Technologies EU GmbH,  firmware 00.00.01.00.05
It solved some bugs, but not all.
It`s an YX scope, but it runs.

For me the most important bug now is the cursor time positioning.
The cursor manual moves over the screen, not over the wave, if moves the wave, lost the cursor position,
if zooms lost the cursor position.
The cursor in track mode, it seem move over the wave, but it makes incompressible jumps.

Whats your opinion over the cursor time function, is or not a bug ?
Exist a new update over the 01.00.05 ?

John
 

Offline jeeff47

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2012, 11:28:33 am »
Has anybody tested the zoom issue that Dave experienced on older firmware? Maybe it was something that was accidentally introduced after the firmware upgrade.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2012, 12:25:21 pm »
Has anybody tested the zoom issue that Dave experienced on older firmware? Maybe it was something that was accidentally introduced after the firmware upgrade.

Yes, I just had John South confirm this. It's a bug that was introduced in newer versions of the firmware, of which there seems to be several incarnations. It sounds as if Rigol don't have their act together in the firmware department, and are in fire-fighting mode.

Dave.
 

Offline Gunb

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2012, 07:01:17 pm »


Whats your opinion over the cursor time function, is or not a bug ?
Exist a new update over the 01.00.05 ?

John

If you mean the MANUAL mode then it's not a bug but what it should do: not glue to the signal.

Related to the TRACK mode I would not say it's  not a bug but you're right, it could be done better.
It depends a bit on the timebase how accurate you can set the cursors.

Same with the DS4000 series.


Kind regards
Gunb
 

Offline John South

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2012, 10:47:13 am »
Hi - I'm the "culprit" behind the firware given to Dave. I also work for Emona Instruments who are the Rigol Distributors in Australia.

I'm posting here to clarify the issues with the firmware given to Dave. This was (As per what Drieg wrote) actually an engineering release not a public release. As such it was not fully tested . It was a release specifically given to me to show corrected XY display to a University here and there was a very short timeframe so it may have been rushed.

At the time I was unaware of it being an engineering release so passed it on to Dave with the introduced bug of non functional zoom in record mode.  I have a new engineering release that fixes this but am waiting on an answer from Rigol on when we expect a public release. I'll post this information here. This was my mistake - Public release firmware is more thoroughly tested. (And yes it could be posted better)

While I'm here a couple of answers to questions that came up on the record mode .

This segments the memory.
Yes you can select the number of segments you want. This is done in 2 ways.

First you can change record length.

For example if I change record length to 14k I can record up to 8128 frames 140k 508 etc.

For existing DS2000 users this is found under Acquire menu --> MemDepth
(Note : My unit has the extended memory depth option so the exact numbers might differ if it is not installed)

Second if I don't want that many I can select the End Frame (Can be anything from 1 to maximum)

For existing DS2000 owners this is found under Utility --> Record --> End Frame.

Frames can be captured by time interval  , captured on trigger or captured an a "mask" test fail.
Frames can be time date stamped and zoomed.

You can also "Analyse" the captured waveforms for "Error" frames by , after capture , selecting , a template from a frame , selecting a % value for error and running analyse. Or you can create a "mask" .

If anyone has any questions on the DS2000's or other Rigol products please feel free to ask me. I will try to keep any sales stuff out of it. 
Disclosure : I work for Emona Instruments. We are a supplier of T&M equipment in Australia and are the Australian Distributors for Rigol. www.emona.com.au/rigol
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2012, 11:30:19 am »
Second if I don't want that many I can select the End Frame (Can be anything from 1 to maximum)
For existing DS2000 owners this is found under Utility --> Record --> End Frame.
Frames can be captured by time interval  , captured on trigger or captured an a "mask" test fail.
Frames can be time date stamped and zoomed.
You can also "Analyse" the captured waveforms for "Error" frames by , after capture , selecting , a template from a frame , selecting a % value for error and running analyse. Or you can create a "mask" .

Thanks John for sharing directly with us.

I didn't know about those features, sounds powerful. Pays to read the manual I guess  ;D

Dave.
 

Offline tlu

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2012, 01:14:57 pm »
Hi - I'm the "culprit" behind the firware given to Dave. I also work for Emona Instruments who are the Rigol Distributors in Australia.

I'm posting here to clarify the issues with the firmware given to Dave. This was (As per what Drieg wrote) actually an engineering release not a public release. As such it was not fully tested . It was a release specifically given to me to show corrected XY display to a University here and there was a very short timeframe so it may have been rushed.

At the time I was unaware of it being an engineering release so passed it on to Dave with the introduced bug of non functional zoom in record mode.  I have a new engineering release that fixes this but am waiting on an answer from Rigol on when we expect a public release. I'll post this information here. This was my mistake - Public release firmware is more thoroughly tested. (And yes it could be posted better)

While I'm here a couple of answers to questions that came up on the record mode .

This segments the memory.
Yes you can select the number of segments you want. This is done in 2 ways.

First you can change record length.

For example if I change record length to 14k I can record up to 8128 frames 140k 508 etc.

For existing DS2000 users this is found under Acquire menu --> MemDepth
(Note : My unit has the extended memory depth option so the exact numbers might differ if it is not installed)

Second if I don't want that many I can select the End Frame (Can be anything from 1 to maximum)

For existing DS2000 owners this is found under Utility --> Record --> End Frame.

Frames can be captured by time interval  , captured on trigger or captured an a "mask" test fail.
Frames can be time date stamped and zoomed.

You can also "Analyse" the captured waveforms for "Error" frames by , after capture , selecting , a template from a frame , selecting a % value for error and running analyse. Or you can create a "mask" .

If anyone has any questions on the DS2000's or other Rigol products please feel free to ask me. I will try to keep any sales stuff out of it.

Hi John, I'm in the US and considering purchasing the DS2072 by the end of this month. Will the latest firmware fix be available to all Rigol resellers? What is the latest revision number of the firmware? I would like to ask this question to my local reseller in the states before buying.

tlu
 

Offline John South

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2012, 10:10:07 am »
Hi Tlu - Yes I imagine any firmware updates will be available - it would be a matter of contacting your local distributor. As per my above post the bugs on zoom were introduced on an engineering firmware that Rigol got to me. On the previous tested release they are not there.

If you can live with Ch1 being "Y" on XY mode (just swap the inputs) then the current firmware will work fine prior to an update being available . (I needed to show a University here the correct XY as their courses are written around having students connect X to Ch1 Y to Ch 2 hence Rigol getting me an Engineering release) .

I'll post here any news.
Disclosure : I work for Emona Instruments. We are a supplier of T&M equipment in Australia and are the Australian Distributors for Rigol. www.emona.com.au/rigol
 

Offline tlu

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2012, 01:33:25 pm »
Thanks John for the the respond. I will check with my local distributor. I'm also trying to get enough members here that is in the states to do a group or volume purchase in order to a discount. What is the best way you recommend on going about this as you are a reseller yourself?

The scope is very decently priced for the features it advertised and also a beautiful designed dso aesthetically in general. Hopefully, more members from here will jump on board. However, I actually do not how a group by can get arranged being we all somehow have to open up one account and pump our share into the funding. If you have any idea please throw in your two cent.

tlu
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2012, 04:51:55 am »
...then the current firmware will work fine prior to an update being available .
Hi John,

Any idea if the ability to save/recall recorded frames is something that Rigol is planning to implement in the future? Currently the option is greyed out when you are in Record/Play/Analysis mode. Of course, I know you can grab and save them via SCPI (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html)- but there is no method to load them back into memory on the scope. Since you can do post-processing (measurements, bus decoding, etc) on running frames, it seems like it would be a wasted opportunity (instead of a great feature) on Rigol's part not to allow the possibility to reload a waveform you recorded last week and check further measurements, etc. on it.

Thanks, Mark
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 05:44:59 am by marmad »
 

Offline John South

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2012, 01:58:40 pm »
Hi Mark - I'll check with Rigol if they have future funtionality improvements for the record mode and let you know.


John
Disclosure : I work for Emona Instruments. We are a supplier of T&M equipment in Australia and are the Australian Distributors for Rigol. www.emona.com.au/rigol
 

Offline tlu

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2012, 03:08:53 pm »
Hi John,

Thanks for following up with the manufacturer of this particular feature that Mark pointed out. I've just ordered my Rigol DS2072 and will be expecting to arrive next Monday. I'm very excited about this scope and hope the feature Mark mentioned will get implemented as this is quite useful for post processing at another day. Hopefully you can convince Rigol to add this feature in their next revision of the firmware.

Much obliged,
Tim
 

Offline Sparky

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2012, 06:36:04 pm »
...then the current firmware will work fine prior to an update being available .
Hi John,

Any idea if the ability to save/recall recorded frames is something that Rigol is planning to implement in the future? Currently the option is greyed out ... <snip> Since you can do post-processing (measurements, bus decoding, etc) on running frames, it seems like it would be a wasted opportunity (instead of a great feature) on Rigol's part not to allow the possibility to reload a waveform you recorded last week and check further measurements, etc. on it.

Thanks, Mark

@marmad: Thank-you for thinking of this excellent addition --- the possibility of "recall" seems to be there...so now only needs to be implemented :) 


Hi Mark - I'll check with Rigol if they have future funtionality improvements for the record mode and let you know.
John

@John: Big thanks for following up on our functional wishes with Rigol! Many people are excited about the DS2000 series, and no doubt you can tell our enthusiasm! :D


<snip>
I've just ordered my Rigol DS2072 and will be expecting to arrive next Monday.
Much obliged,
Tim

@tlu: I too just placed an order! I noted earlier that you're in the US, and I responded to your group-order poll.  I was a bit on the fence then, and wasn't sure how the group purchase would work.  Recently I found Tequipment.net would give me a 5% .edu discount, and so I purchased through them.  It is possible for individuals to get a discount, if you qualify by some means, and I hope things worked out for you.

I'm very excited too!  And, we are all looking forward to trying @marmad's software! :D
 

Offline tlu

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #88 on: November 07, 2012, 03:39:36 am »
Quote

@tlu: I too just placed an order! I noted earlier that you're in the US, and I responded to your group-order poll.  I was a bit on the fence then, and wasn't sure how the group purchase would work.  Recently I found Tequipment.net would give me a 5% .edu discount, and so I purchased through them.  It is possible for individuals to get a discount, if you qualify by some means, and I hope things worked out for you.

I'm very excited too!  And, we are all looking forward to trying @marmad's software! :D

Unfortunately, there is no individual discount or student discount. I've personally talked the the sales rep over at Tequipment. However, if the school worked at something with them than there would be a 5% discount on tier of 5 units. The rep also mentioned depending on the number of units ordered through the school (this is a must to get the discount) they can work on further discount. Unfortunately for me, my school already has dso supplied to them so I'm out of luck and had to do an individual buy but I was able to get a free dso case granted it may not fit the Rigol DS2072 unit but it is ok with me. I can use it for other things. It is their inhouse brand dso carrying case which did not look too bad. I wasn't able to get enough of my fellow students to join me in this quest for the discount so I jumped the gun and made a purchase. I'm super excited and counting down the days. Can't wait to try out Marmad's software as well. It should be here next week according to the UPS delivery schedule.
 

Offline John South

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2012, 12:43:25 pm »
Hi Mark - At this stage there are no immediate plans to add this functionallity (Save/Recall recorded frames) .

This is not to say it won't be added in the future.

John
Disclosure : I work for Emona Instruments. We are a supplier of T&M equipment in Australia and are the Australian Distributors for Rigol. www.emona.com.au/rigol
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2012, 01:15:27 pm »
Hi Mark - At this stage there are no immediate plans to add this functionallity (Save/Recall recorded frames) .

This is not to say it won't be added in the future.

John
Hi John,

Thanks so much for your help and speedy response. It's a shame that they have no plans to implement that feature - I could think of a number of powerful uses for it. One that springs to mind would be the time-based equivalent of using a static Reference waveform; e.g. being able to compare the output of a design you're working on (recorded a week ago) to the real-time current output which you've tweaked.

BTW, Rigol needs to come up with better names for some of their powerful features. 'Record Open' sounds rather dull - but if you use Yokogawa's name, 'History Memory', doesn't it sound way sexier?  ;)

Anyway, just for fun, here is my current features wish-list for the DS2000 series:
1) Save/Recall of specifc channels of recorded frames at specific frame points.
2) Markers while in Delayed Sweep Mode (searching would be better - but I think unlikely)
3) SCPI :SYST:KEY command to poll the 4 menu pg up/pg dwn buttons (unused on the front panel when the menus are retracted - the scope lacks the ability to initiate contact with control software and this would be an easy way to do it - and they would also then function as programmable soft-keys).

Mark
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 01:28:24 pm by marmad »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2012, 06:45:39 am »
*(Double posting this here - as well as the other Rigol thread - since John South might see it here and offer some feedback)*

I've been working on a new version of my Rigol software for the last couple of days, and I seem to have found the first bug in the DS2000 that is, IMO, rather a serious one:

I don't seem to be able to read the contents of the DSO memory reliably when the scope is in the STOP state - in other words, I can't get the full sample depth out of the scope (getting just the displayed data is not a problem) - which is a big deal if anyone is planning to do any post-processing with 3rd party software, including MATLAB or LabVIEW (one of the big selling points of the Rigol scope over it's competitors).

Here is the procedure to use copied from the Rigol DS2000 programming guide:

Procedures of the internal memory waveform data reading:
S1. :STOP
The internal memory waveform data can only be read in STOP state
S2. :WAV:SOURce CHAN1
Set the channel source to be read
S3. :WAV:MODE RAW
Set the waveform mode to RAW
S4. :WAV:RESet
Reset the waveform reading
S5. :WAV:BEGin
Start the waveform reading
S6. :WAV:STATus?
1) IDLE
:WAV:DATA?
:WAV: END
2) READ
:WAV:DATA?
Repeat S6

This order of commands does NOT work correctly with the DS2000 - it doesn't return or read the correct number of samples when run as a loop if the memory depth is set to anything higher than 14k.  In fact, you can test that it doesn't work correctly by just using Rigol's own software Ultra Sigma:
Just set the memory depth to >= 140k; STOP the scope; start Ultra Sigma; type in the listed SCPI commands one by one; and you will see it fail.

Perhaps the correct method has changed since the programming guide was published by Rigol - I've passed this info along to my dealer to pass to Rigol, We'll see what they have to say about it.
 

Offline tan98010

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2012, 12:22:28 pm »
Guys,

Currently i am trying to upgrade my Rigol DS2202 firmware, everything seems normal during the process, but the scope is bricked after it restart it self (No boot, just hang there with "RIGOL" logo appear on the screen).

P.S :i upgrade the firmware after the scope is fully booted up.

Anyone got this experience before please help me.
 

Offline Astroplio

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2012, 12:38:34 pm »
Do what drieg said earlier in this thread page 3.

The process can take several minutes, mine took about 25.

If you can't get the help button method to work the first time, keep trying, it is a bit tricky to get the timing of the button press right, just after the power up.

Wish you luck!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 12:40:28 pm by Astroplio »
 

Offline CarlG

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2013, 12:08:25 am »
That certainly sounds like the best way Dave but don't you think the Pass/Fail could also work?
I imagine that on a low end DSO that's going to run into the same capture rate issue??
BTW Dave can you setup a standardized test on a video that anybody with a DSO and a arb generator could use to test their scope?  It would give all of us great data to publish in the videos forum thread and since you have several dso we could see how our cheapies stack up in an apples to apples comparison of wfcr.

I assume that your request to Dave is regarding testing the capture rate? It's not that complicated, but on the other hand it's that simple either:

You don't need a function generator to test the capture rate, but you'll need a frequency counter. Connect it to the Trig Out of the scope and you can read the capture rate for different timebases on the counter. The famous capture rate "sweet spot" that the manufacturer claim might be a very small spot...e.g. as in this Rigol example.

Then, turn on anything you can think of: all channels (also digital if it's an MSO), turn on [serial] decoding if it exist, turn on zoom, automatic measurements,...change record length/memory depth if available, check vector/dots mode, and see what capture rate you get in a realistic situation! For instance, if you're looking at an SPI interface you're likely to have four channels enabled. Or if you're looking at a memory interface, you'd probably use the digital channels along with one or more analog channels.

And yes, as you could guess, I'm pretty fond of the Agilent scopes (the X-series but also the 6k/7k-series) just because of their high capture rates independent of the mode you're running the scope in, plus that you don't have to think about record length/memory depth. I'm not that familiar with other scopes than Agilent and Tektronix (and to some extent LeCroy), but I'd say that these Agilent scopes (NOT e.g. the 1000-series) beat any other scope you compare with (and beat them by far) except for the Rohde & Schwartz scopes. (As far as I know, R&S were the first to claim a capture rate of 1 million wfms/s. But the R&S user interface is dreadful, with single knobs for the four vertical channel attn/pos...)

However, the Agilent scopes also have their drawbacks, but I won't go into that now.

//C
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 12:10:44 am by CarlG »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2013, 04:24:25 pm »
And yes, as you could guess, I'm pretty fond of the Agilent scopes just because of their high capture rates independent of the mode you're running the scope in, plus that you don't have to think about record length/memory depth.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if you're implying that the Agilent X series waveform capture rates don't vary greatly with the timebase scale setting and other parameters - like every other DSO - then that is incorrect.
 

Offline CarlG

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2013, 11:26:03 pm »
And yes, as you could guess, I'm pretty fond of the Agilent scopes just because of their high capture rates independent of the mode you're running the scope in, plus that you don't have to think about record length/memory depth.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if you're implying that the Agilent X series waveform capture rates don't vary greatly with the timebase scale setting and other parameters - like every other DSO - then that is incorrect.

You're correct, my statement above is not strictly true. It's (obviously) not valid when the capture rate is limited by the timebase setting#1. Maybe I should have made that remark to clearify. But in my post I'm referring to [a] scope's [claimed] maximum capture rate, which isn't applicable at lower timebase settings.

So what I'm trying to say is that, at a given timebase setting which not inherently limit the capture rate, the capture rate for the Agilent scopes doesn't change when adding more channels, decoding etc, compared to single channel mode, no decoding etc. Then again, I admit I haven't verified this myself, so I might be wrong. My assumption is based on the 6000/7000-series performance, and my belief that Agilent wouldn't do the mistake of designing the X-series worse in this respect. But who knows?  It would be interesting if somebody could produce a table corresponding to the Rigol example above, with additional columns for number of channels, decoding and so on. I have the intention to produce such a table for a DSO3000-series scope later this week.

 #1: E.g. for the DSOX2000-series, with a claimed 50k wfms/s, that (theoretical) limit corresponds to 1/50k = 20us, or 2us/div. In practice it might be lower, maybe 1us/div.

//C
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2013, 05:45:23 pm »
It would be interesting if somebody could produce a table corresponding to the Rigol example above, with additional columns for number of channels, decoding and so on. I have the intention to produce such a table for a DSO3000-series scope later this week.
Since I produced the table you're referring to, I'd be happy to create another one with channels, decoding, etc. enabled - but I'm currently travelling so I can't do it for 3 weeks. I did do a little testing when I made the original table, and I remember that some additional settings DID affect the rate - and others did not.

I might point out that the Agilent document which lists the update rates for the 2000X, 3000X, etc. notes:
"Tables 1, 2, and 3 show side-by-side measured waveform update rates of competitively priced 100-MHz, 500-MHz, and 1-GHz bandwidth scopes respectively. The test began by defaulting each scope’s setup condition. Only one channel of the scope was turned on for these tests."
While I don't own an Agilent X-Series to test, I would surmise that the above comment tends to imply that non-default setups - or more than one channel turned on - might negate the listed waveform update rates.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 06:24:36 am by marmad »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2013, 06:28:12 am »
If you can't get the help button method to work the first time, keep trying, it is a bit tricky to get the timing of the button press right, just after the power up.

After power on, all of the LEDs flash for ~1 second. During that flash, you have to press AND let go of the 'Help' button.
 

Offline CarlG

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Re: EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2013, 08:53:24 am »
It would be interesting if somebody could produce a table corresponding to the Rigol example above, with additional columns for number of channels, decoding and so on. I have the intention to produce such a table for a DSO3000-series scope later this week.
Since I produced the table you're referring to, I'd be happy to create another one with channels, decoding, etc. enabled - but I'm currently travelling so I can't do it for 3 weeks. I did do a little testing when I made the original table, and I remember that some additional settings DID affect the rate - and others did not.
Sounds great!

Quote
I might point out that the Agilent document which lists the update rates for the 2000X, 3000X, etc. notes:
Also great! I tried to find such a document, but obviously not hard enough...thanks!
EDIT: Oh, that document...I've seen it being referred to all over the forum but didn't think of it :-[

I made some preliminary measurement on an MSO7104B today but got inconsistent results, so I have to investigate further...but for the moment I'm inclined to withdraw my statement, at least partially, and agree with you.  I'll be back ;)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 09:01:48 am by CarlG »
 


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