Author Topic: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera  (Read 12740 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29971
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« on: December 22, 2012, 11:57:25 pm »


Dave.
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 12:11:15 am »
Why cant they just make a 4K resolution thermal camera with a lens mount supporting a decent f1.4 anamorphic lens to maximize detail when outputting content to 16:9 displays, and possibly even a cinema mode where the raw video is recorded with an S-Log profile to allow for 13 stops of dynamic range in order to get the most out of the video in post production?
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3494
  • Country: gb
  • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 12:18:08 am »
I think the reason most thermal cameras have limited resolution is because it's very difficult to make the individual sensor pixels small.
 

Offline lewis

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 704
  • Country: gb
  • Nullius in verba
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 02:42:38 am »
Why cant they just make a 4K resolution thermal camera with a lens mount supporting a decent f1.4 anamorphic lens to maximize detail when outputting content to 16:9 displays, and possibly even a cinema mode where the raw video is recorded with an S-Log profile to allow for 13 stops of dynamic range in order to get the most out of the video in post production?

They can. It's called the James Webb Space Telescope.
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
 

Offline peter.mitchell

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1568
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 08:49:23 am »
Why cant they just make a 4K resolution thermal camera with a lens mount supporting a decent f1.4 anamorphic lens to maximize detail when outputting content to 16:9 displays, and possibly even a cinema mode where the raw video is recorded with an S-Log profile to allow for 13 stops of dynamic range in order to get the most out of the video in post production?

Because you need the lens elements to pass IR very efficiently, something conventional lens materials don't do. Also I feel this is sarcastic.
 

Offline bitwelder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 821
  • Country: fi
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 09:02:21 am »
Can you estimate how the 12000 AUD get distributed in the BOM?
I guess most goes to the IR sensor... but what other expensive components are there?
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15127
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 09:54:23 am »
Probably 2/3 is the sensor and the associated lens, along with the mount and the isothermal block for them. Then the rest is split between display, case, battery and battery management and the rest of the electronics. Probably the single biggest coat after the IR block is the rest of the case, as the moulds to make them are not cheap in something that complex, and there are most likely not many units made to drop the amortisation cost of the dies to an insignificant amount. Consider car body moulds generally are used to make 100k plus units before they are refurbished. Similar cost of mould, but the production run is likely to be only 10k units of the IR camera per year, not 500k like the car. VW here in SA had to do a major refurbishing of the VW Golf tooling, as it was 30 years old, and was well worn, about 10 years ago. Those have made millions of vehicles.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29971
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 10:17:16 am »
Why cant they just make a 4K resolution thermal camera with a lens mount supporting a decent f1.4 anamorphic lens to maximize detail when outputting content to 16:9 displays, and possibly even a cinema mode where the raw video is recorded with an S-Log profile to allow for 13 stops of dynamic range in order to get the most out of the video in post production?

Because you need the lens elements to pass IR very efficiently, something conventional lens materials don't do. Also I feel this is sarcastic.

The lens are made of Germanium.

Dave.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12029
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 10:52:06 am »
The problem is the market for  TI cameras is small, and there aren't many manufacturers, so you have the  old chicken/egg situation of small marked due to high price and high price due to small volumes. Given sufficient volume I'm sure he sensor price could come down significantly - I don't know enough about the intrinsic costs of making germanium optics to know how scaleable they are. I think the key there would be to get the  sensor size down to allow the use of smaller optics
Silicon can also be used as a lens material, but not sure how useable it is at imaging, as opposed to detection type applications.
e.g. this Omron 4x4 sensor uses a silicon lens.
Devices like the Melexis 16x4 sensor  could shake up the bottom end of the market, especially with projects like this kickstarter for a $175 phone add-on
Which provide enough functionality for things like electrcal faultfinding and building heat loss, which are probably the main potential volume markets.
However until there is a mass-market for higher-res sensors they will never be cheap. I wonder what this 1kx768 TI camera costs....
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online Psi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7356
  • Country: nz
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 11:02:47 am »
Melexis 16x4 sensor  could shake up the bottom end of the market, especially with projects like this kickstarter for a $175 phone add-on

I wonder if you could get better resolution out of one of those 16x4 sensors if you rotated it 90deg and mounted it to a motor that scanned a scene twice a second. 
Maybe you could up the res to 30x16 or something.

The array has a framerate of up to 512Hz, so it might work.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 11:07:12 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12029
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 11:24:07 am »
Melexis 16x4 sensor  could shake up the bottom end of the market, especially with projects like this kickstarter for a $175 phone add-on

I wonder if you could get better resolution out of one of those 16x4 sensors if you rotated it 90deg and mounted it to a motor that scanned a scene twice a second. 
Maybe you could up the res to 30x16 or something.

The array has a framerate of up to 512Hz, so it might work.
I think the thermal mass of the sensor means the effective update rate would be somewhat less, but maybe still useable in a a slow-scan mode.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline peter.mitchell

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1568
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 12:10:43 pm »
Why cant they just make a 4K resolution thermal camera with a lens mount supporting a decent f1.4 anamorphic lens to maximize detail when outputting content to 16:9 displays, and possibly even a cinema mode where the raw video is recorded with an S-Log profile to allow for 13 stops of dynamic range in order to get the most out of the video in post production?

Because you need the lens elements to pass IR very efficiently, something conventional lens materials don't do. Also I feel this is sarcastic.

The lens are made of Germanium.

Dave.

Indeed, which means you can't just go out and grab a panavision anamorphic cine lens and slap that on the mount.
 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4141
  • Country: nl
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 12:18:52 pm »
I think the thermal mass of the sensor means the effective update rate would be somewhat less, but maybe still useable in a a slow-scan mode.

Seeing how easy IR is reflected you might get away with a rotating mirror like in a laserprinter (I'm sure lots of you have taken apart).
You could even scan multiple vertical lines by slightly slanting the mirrors, if I remember correctly most lasers have 6 or 8 mirrors on the motor.
If the sensor can do 512 images per second you could get 10FPS out of it with a resolution of 80*40 isn't it?
Hmm, doesn't sound all that much after all.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline kripton2035

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1761
  • Country: fr
    • kripton2035 schematics repository
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2012, 12:37:33 pm »
Probably 2/3 is the sensor and the associated lens, along with the mount and the isothermal block for them. Then the rest is split between display, case, battery and battery management and the rest of the electronics. Probably the single biggest coat after the IR block is the rest of the case, as the moulds to make them are not cheap in something that complex, and there are most likely not many units made to drop the amortisation cost of the dies to an insignificant amount. Consider car body moulds generally are used to make 100k plus units before they are refurbished. Similar cost of mould, but the production run is likely to be only 10k units of the IR camera per year, not 500k like the car. VW here in SA had to do a major refurbishing of the VW Golf tooling, as it was 30 years old, and was well worn, about 10 years ago. Those have made millions of vehicles.

I bought an "old" used Flir B2 thermal camera a year ago.
it is "only" 122 x 80 pixels sensor and it costed new more than 8000 euros.
the battery was weak and a new one is 150 euros that's not too much
but I asked for another lens you can have 3 different types : each one costs 2000 euros !!!
so the sensor costs a lot but the lens I think it costs as much as the sensor.

actually you can get a "night vision" camera on german high end cars mercedes or bmw
the option costs 2500 euros, and it is in the end a nice thermal camera
they sell more, so the price goes down.

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12029
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 12:46:19 pm »
I think the thermal mass of the sensor means the effective update rate would be somewhat less, but maybe still useable in a a slow-scan mode.

Seeing how easy IR is reflected you might get away with a rotating mirror like in a laserprinter (I'm sure lots of you have taken apart).
You could even scan multiple vertical lines by slightly slanting the mirrors, if I remember correctly most lasers have 6 or 8 mirrors on the motor.
If the sensor can do 512 images per second you could get 10FPS out of it with a resolution of 80*40 isn't it?
Hmm, doesn't sound all that much after all.
That still assumes the thermal response time of the sensor is fast enough. Remember a thermopile sensor is just bunch of small temperature sensors, which will have some thermal mass
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline KedasProbe

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 503
  • Country: be
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 12:52:08 pm »
I guess this is on its place  :)
Emissivity:
http://www.ictinternational.com.au/brochures/everest/emissivity-theory.pdf
http://www.everestinterscience.com/info/emissivitytable.htm
(The same temperature can seem to be measured as a different temperature)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 12:54:56 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3494
  • Country: gb
  • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 01:54:40 pm »
I wonder if you cool the sensor down, i.e. through a Peltier cooler, the thermal response would be better. Don't they do that for some sensors?
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15127
  • Country: za
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 02:12:49 pm »
Only done for those that need low noise. The common sensors utilise thermal difference to make the output, cooling makes it lower noise, though to get an advantage that is better than the power consumed you need a 3 or more stage petlier unit that takes the sensor down to liquid nitrogen temperatures so that there is effectively nearly no noise compared to room temp. You really would use these if you want  a ultra low noise signal like in a telescope. James Webb telescope cools the detector actively with such a cooler to get it cooler than 4k as that is what the background is. The biggest problem they have is stray heat entering the optical path.
 

Offline lewis

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 704
  • Country: gb
  • Nullius in verba
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 03:23:41 pm »
FYI, the sensor these IR cameras use is called a Focal Plane Array Uncooled Microbolometer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer.

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
 

Offline Razor512

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2012, 05:22:11 pm »
To me the insane price seems to be one of two things.

They charge a ton of money to have a huge profit margin because they can get away with it due to lack of competition

Or the second reason (though highly unlikely), They charge enough to get many 10's of thousands % profit margin because the devices last long enough that they wont sell very often (eg in the mattress industry, they may charge $1000 for a mattress that cost about $30-40 to make)


I bet if someone took one apart and looked up all of the parts, they would get a BOM of less than $100

eg kinda like how smartphones sell for nearly $900 when they cost about $200 or less to make

http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/News/Pages/Many-iPhone-5-Components-Change-But-Most-Suppliers-Remain-the-Same-Teardown-Reveals.aspx  (And those estimates don't even take into account volume discounts and other deals that the company may have made (since that info is not publicly available)
 

alm

  • Guest
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2012, 09:59:08 pm »
To me the insane price seems to be one of two things.

They charge a ton of money to have a huge profit margin because they can get away with it due to lack of competition

Or the second reason (though highly unlikely), They charge enough to get many 10's of thousands % profit margin because the devices last long enough that they wont sell very often (eg in the mattress industry, they may charge $1000 for a mattress that cost about $30-40 to make)
Or maybe BOM and R&D costs are high due to limited volume. You're not going to sell millions of these anytime soon.

I bet if someone took one apart and looked up all of the parts, they would get a BOM of less than $100
Tell me where to find just the sensor for $100, or just the lens.
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3494
  • Country: gb
  • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2012, 11:03:13 pm »
How much are those 4x4 or 16x4 sensors?

I mean, even a 16x16 camera wouldn't be too bad, if you could put them in a matrix, even better.

 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12029
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2012, 11:16:27 pm »
Omron 4x4 GB£30
http://uk.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/d6t-44l-06/sensor-thermal-mems-4x4/dp/2218000

Panasonic 8x8 : US$39
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/AMG8831/255-3509-1-ND/3461616
But the bastards won't ship it to UK  ( same with all Panasonic products from DK)

Melexis 16x4 US$65
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/analog/sensors/temperature/Pages/5020660-MLX90620ESF-BAB-000-TU.aspx?IM=0

Omron are promising a 16x16 sensor mid next year, which should be interesting.

A problem with low-res sensors around 16x16 is that looking only at the IR image it can be hard to figure out what you're looking at (i.e. relating objects in the thermal image to real objects. The 16x4  strip inserted into the phone image on the  IR_Blue helps a lot as you get a visual reference on both sides.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3494
  • Country: gb
  • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2012, 11:28:51 pm »
Hmm, patent expired on a thermal imaging sensor design? I heard FLIR's patent was due to expire in 2012-2013 some time
 

Offline Alex

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #402 - Flir E60 IR Thermal Camera
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2012, 11:35:20 pm »
On the discussion of transducer arrays I can add the TPA81, an 8x1 thermopile array I have had experience with.

This sensor module can easily be panned with a servo motor, and in fact the distributor linked below has demo software for this purpose.

Making qualitative measurements to e.g. lock-on a heatsource is straightforward, but making quantitative measurements is very challenging.

http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/acatalog/Thermal_Array_Sensor.html
http://www.robot-electronics.co.uk/htm/tpa81tech.htm

Alex

 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf