EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on March 09, 2013, 12:07:32 pm
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Review and teardown of the 8 channel Saleae USB Logic Analyser
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G4ZKA6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004G4ZKA6&linkCode=as2&tag=eevblogstore-20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004G4ZKA6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004G4ZKA6&linkCode=as2&tag=eevblogstore-20)
EEVblog #436 - Saleae USB Logic Analyser Review & Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OCPWCdg2ys#ws)
Dave.
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"Private Video" :o
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Seems like its the wrong video attached.
Correct: EEVblog #436 - Saleae USB Logic Analyser Review & Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OCPWCdg2ys#ws)
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http://mdiy.pl/uniwersalna-plytka-analizatora-logicznego/ (http://mdiy.pl/uniwersalna-plytka-analizatora-logicznego/)
DIY version of that with VID/PID changed by just pressing micro switch (Attiny25 for that), so it can present itself as different logic analysers. Unfortunately no idea if free software exists for it and without it it's useless :-(
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http://mdiy.pl/uniwersalna-plytka-analizatora-logicznego/ (http://mdiy.pl/uniwersalna-plytka-analizatora-logicznego/)
DIY version of that with VID/PID changed by just pressing micro switch (Attiny25 for that), so it can present itself as different logic analysers. Unfortunately no idea if free software exists for it and without it it's useless :-(
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Fx2lafw (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Fx2lafw)
Note that some of the clones have a buffered input too, as well as 16-channel +analog capability.
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Thanks for the Review and Teardown. I have used the 16 channel one at work and agree with your assessment that the trigger facilities are the major limitation. Though having said that the capture length (compared to Oscilloscopes) and the ease of use are good and it has proved useful on SPI and I2C.
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I agree with the verdict on the basic software. The interface is intuitive, but no major features have been added since it was rewritten in 2010. For example, I complained about the limited triggering options when version 1.1 was released in 2010, but I think the only features that have been added have been Logic16 support, an SDK for analyzers and some extra analyzers.
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you can find a china copycat for only rmb 40
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.25.8qX8Qp&id=18225744876 (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.25.8qX8Qp&id=18225744876)
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AFAIK Saleae logic and USBee are based on the same CY68013A chip. I have a clone that can present itself to be either Saleae or USBee. After comparing the software I found Saleae is far better than USBee in terms of USB throughput.
There's another useful 3rd party free software called "PWM Logic" that turns Saleae logic into a PWM generator.
http://www.brrrbaybay.com/index.php/pwm-logic/about (http://www.brrrbaybay.com/index.php/pwm-logic/about)
Bob
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In fact, all you need is the dev board. The layout is damn near identical to the one in the product...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315)
You don't even need any firmware - all you need to do is change the Product and Vendor IDs using this utility (google it) - all the firmware is transferred from the PC software.
I bought one, and I can confirm that it works fine.
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wondering only why you got these unnamed clips, that should be the E-Z Hooks. Money savings?
I bought my first Saleae right after they started doing the business, year ago however the PCB stopped to work.
For sure i could repair it, but i thought "let's see first what they will do with [long time expired warranty] customers".
And here is the difference between one hung low clones and org. Saleae - they simply send me replacement unit, on no costs.
Sure, i've paid somehow the support by paying the 150$, but i got even more than expected, and that's really unique today.
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wondering only why you got these unnamed clips, that should be the E-Z Hooks. Money savings?
Yes. They used to advertise that they were shipping genuine E-Z hooks, but they stopped doing that a while ago and started shipping cheaper clips.
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And here is the difference between one hung low clones and org. Saleae - they simply send me replacement unit, on no costs.
Sure, i've paid somehow the support by paying the 150$, but i got even more than expected, and that's really unique today.
I guess, but... There's an order of magnitude difference between $12 and $150.
If I bought an original, it would be for the nice enclosure. Really rugged and portable. But if it'll just sit on my computer desk, I'd pay the $12, and if it broke, buy another one for $24 total.
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I've heard nothing but good things about this 34 channel one. At $400 you certainly are getting better value when you consider the price of the 16 channel saleae one
http://www.pctestinstruments.com/index.htm (http://www.pctestinstruments.com/index.htm)
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it seems that Saleae is working on better I2C decoder - with search functionality
http://community.saleae.com/node/332 (http://community.saleae.com/node/332)
And it seems the current Beta version is already supporting different proticols, e.g. JTAG
Well, the biggest news is we have several new analyzers! We now have JTAG, PS/2 Keyboard & Mouse,
Atmel Single Wire Interface, and LIN! (Local Interconnect Network)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-436-saleae-usb-logic-analyser-review-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=40977)
And this is why it's worth to pay money, not only because of (really nice) enclosure and very good support.
A $12 china clone alone is not doing any work, not even if you pay extra 100$ bucks to chinese seller - they will simply
not write own - working and english (not even ask about multilang) version - software (oh well, if they find a ready-to-use
source somewhere then yes, then you will get sw with new icons and company logo ... ).
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Ah... The thing with getting the board I mentioned, is that you can use Saleae's own software with it. I guarantee it works.. I had some problems getting a later version to work with it, but I think that was just a glitch with their software at the time.
EDIT: This, I would imagine, is what the chinese clones do as well.
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Ah... The thing with getting the board I mentioned, is that you can use Saleae's own software with it. I guarantee it works.. I had some problems getting a later version to work with it, but I think that was just a glitch with their software at the time.
EDIT: This, I would imagine, is what the chinese clones do as well.
At some point Saleae implemented some routines in their software to identify chinese clones to stop people from using their software without paying.
EDIT: Or rather, what triggered the decision IIRC were chinese ebay sellers bundling the Saleae software with those cheap evaluation boards.
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all these thingies like USBee, Salae et al are based on the well known cypress chip. they essentially flick the FIFO's of that device in permanent streaming mode and go off captureing what comes in. There is no real software involved apart from configuring the endpoints and turning on the stream feature.
The 8051 inside only configures the strema port and then lets the hardware rip.
The smarts sit in the pc side software.
State analysis is not possible as there is no clock input. the problem is that a USb device is a slave only and this would require local buffer until the host can poll for the next packet.
The protection diodes used are special. they actually are esd ptoection structures for very high bandwidth applications like DVI busses. DVIULC6-4SC6 is the part number. it is essentially a transil combined with 8 diodes allowing to protect 4 pins. the capacitance is in the order of half a picofarad.
the on board eeprom only holds a vid/pid pair tat allows the pc side software to ind the device and upload the firmware for the 8051. you can actually store firmware in that eeprom as well but these devices don;t use that feature. they just upload it at first contact. the cypress chip has no real rom and uses ram only. at powerup it either fetches its firmware from the eeprom or waits for the Pc to feed it through the usb port.
the one-hung-lo clones use a different eeprom with a mechanism to switch the addresses around . that is what they can detect.
i have been to their open-house days a couple of times ( they are close to candlestick point in san francisco ) and they had a whole bag of fake clones.
They use altium to make their boards and schematics.
the 16 bit version has a cpld on board to multiplex the 16 bit inot an 8 bit stream for the cypress chip.
keep in mind that this is essentially a streamer. it just samples the state of the 8 input pins as fast as it can. all post processing is done on the pc. as it is capturing it cannot process the data. so setting advanced triggers like 'missing acknowledge' etc are not really possible at it woudl depend on the speed of the pc to be able to crunch it... on a slow pc it would miss packets... so it is all necessarily done in post processing. this is the difference with real logic analyser that have hardware engines to do sequentieal states and fire off the trigger. the logic analyser essentially has a custom 'cpu' that can do a number of custom compares and if the sequence matches they fire off.
these thingies are useful for some fast work , but they are no match for the hardware decoders buitl into MSO scopes. then again you have to tack on a digit to the cost ...
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This video has made me really want an MSO/LA with realtime decode. Unfortunately, it also looks like I'd have to spend more than a couple grand for that. :(
I have the Saleae. It's helped me in a few occasions but mostly it stays in the bag. That it's not realtime is a major disadvantage for the time of signals I usually deal with.
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keep in mind that this is essentially a streamer. it just samples the state of the 8 input pins as fast as it can. all post processing is done on the pc. as it is capturing it cannot process the data. so setting advanced triggers like 'missing acknowledge' etc are not really possible at it woudl depend on the speed of the pc to be able to crunch it... on a slow pc it would miss packets... so it is all necessarily done in post processing. this is the difference with real logic analyser that have hardware engines to do sequentieal states and fire off the trigger. the logic analyser essentially has a custom 'cpu' that can do a number of custom compares and if the sequence matches they fire off.
If it can do billions of samples of pre-trigger data, then some buffering for trigger decoding shouldn't be a big deal. 24 MB/s isn't exactly a fast data rate for a modern CPU, and real-time is not required if it can buffer for multiple seconds. It's not like the current triggering is hardware-based, the edge/level triggering is also software-based. Some protocol decoders might be too complex, but basic state machines like in the old HP logic analyzers should definitely be possible.
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Fancy box, fancy zooming animation, but lacking basic trigger functions? :palm:
Being able to trigger on a specific event is essential to a tool like this, and with all the processing done on a multi-ghz, multi-core CPU there really is no excuse...
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I own both the Logic and Logic16 and really like both of them. While it's true the software lacks some features found on much more expensive analyzers, in my work the ease of use of the software more than makes up for this. In my experience the lack of advanced triggering options isn't a huge issue when you can record data for very long periods of time. The ease of navigating with the mouse makes it simple to browse through and see specific events, though I agree search would be a nice feature to add.
One thing I've found really handy is the ability to export data in a variety of formats. So for example if you have an rs485 network with a bunch of custom devices on it speaking a custom protocol and you want to make sure they are all communicating correctly you can feed the data from Logic into a Python script or something that verifies everything. The script can print out timestamps where the protocol is violated for further investigation inside the Logic software. For this sort of debugging of networks of embedded sensors and such I've found the Logic to be much easier to use than the analyzer on my scope.
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I own both the Logic and Logic16 and really like both of them.
You just signed up, your first posting is about telling us how good the LAs are. So, what is your relation with Saleae?
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Hello every one and Hi Dave! love your blog and show. It is my first logged in time on eevblog forum. I am not very good with written words So it always kept me on guest side.
I have logic aver 2 years now. It is quite a handy device for basic bus analysis. My favorite thing about Saleae logic is that "It is Very Basic". It is not meant to do too much I mean it is obviously not the replacement of a real thing.
yes it is little expensive for being just "Basic" but they have good customer support, simple and clean GUI and most importantly it is very Compaq. So i don't mind keeping it in one corner of my work space. It helps when i don't want to fiddle and do all the menu and settings on larger signal analyzer or scope for some simple thing. I agree with Dave and cyr, it should be able to trigger on a specific event.
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I don't have any relationship with them other than as a satisfied customer. I signed up just to make this post as I think Saleae has a great product and Dave's review wasn't super positive about it. (Nothing against Dave, generally I really agree with his reviews...)
I can understand how you might think I'm a shill or a robot so here's a bit about me: I run a small design/technology company in NYC called Patten Studio. We use Logic to debug communications protocols in projects like this LCD ribbon sculpture http://www.pattenstudio.com/projects/ribbon (http://www.pattenstudio.com/projects/ribbon) and this science museum exhibit http://www.pattenstudio.com/projects/chem (http://www.pattenstudio.com/projects/chem).
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You just signed up, your first posting is about telling us how good the LAs are. So, what is your relation with Saleae?
I'm also new here. So, you say it's not allowed to say you like a product in your first post? Good to know, I won't tell I have Logic16 and like it too, then. Oopsie daisy...
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Come on kids, three first time posters in a row. Pull the other one.
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I don't have any relationship with them other than as a satisfied customer. I signed up just to make this post as I think Saleae has a great product and Dave's review wasn't super positive about it. (Nothing against Dave, generally I really agree with his reviews...)
All it had to do to get a thumbs up would have been a good search feature I suspect. I could maybe have overlooked the triggering (due to the almost unlimited buffer size) and free running mode. But missing all 3 is pretty inexcusable in such a mature product. And for a company that claims to: "tirelessly develop and refine the world's greatest [tiny] logic analyzer"
Dave.
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Come on kids, three first time posters in a row. Pull the other one.
Your level of paranoia is almost amusing :) I'd love to sit and wait for a FOURTH (imagine that...) positive post about Logic just to see your reaction if I hadn't have better things to do.
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Come on kids, three first time posters in a row. Pull the other one.
Happens all the time.
You give a bad review to something people passionately like, and it triggers them to defend it.
(also happens in reverse)
Dave.
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Lack of decent triggering seriously limits what you can do with a data pump like that...
I use a somewhat modified version of SUMP on a nexys2, and the first thing I did was to add some more triggering capabilities. Because not being able to trigger on for whatever it is you want to trigger on is so frigging annoying. You can argue about being able to do it post capture, but that just isn't the same.
If only because with post capture processing you don't have a handy TRIGGER output pin that you can use during your debugging.
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The lack of proper triggering just lost them a sale. I was considering buying one but I refuse to fight with that.
It's a shame they seem to have put so much effort into wank factor when so much of the real development is unfinished. You could even consider the trigger limitation a "design choice", but there's no excuse for it choking on that UART stream...
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I have a Logic ( 8 ) and found the software pretty good. I did want to improve the DMX decoder plugin but can't seem to figure out how to use the SDK. :(
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http://www.pctestinstruments.com (http://www.pctestinstruments.com)
this is a usb logic analyser. 34 channels and $389
here is a list of bullet point features from their website:
500MHz Timing-Mode (Internal Clock)
200MHz State-Mode (External Clock)
Advanced Multi-Level Triggering
Real-Time Sample Compression
+6V to -6V Adjustable Logic Threshold
CAN, I2C, SPI, RS232, 1-Wire and more
Built-in 300MHz Frequency Counter
USB 1.1 and 2.0 Compatible
I'm not sure but I think dave may have done a teardown of one but it might have been a different person. So you don't have to spend huge money to get something with the features people are complaining about with the salae logic.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks it is a good deal! seems like it to me but I'm a newb :P
Cheers,
Alex
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look , you can't really blame this thing for not having a trigger system. not at this price point. their software is pretty clever and they have a nice visualisation of many protocols. true, their are hampered by the hardware. but then again all these cypress based designs are in the same category ( Usbee , Salae , Logic and some others )
The ChronoVu http://www.chronovu.com/ (http://www.chronovu.com/) for example is a different animal. that one uses a CPLD and on-board SDRAM to capture at up to 100Mhz. it does have triggering capabilities albeit not sequential triggering. Then again at that price point you still can't complain.
A real logic analyser with sequence triggering , fast , deep memory and advanced decoding ( like assembly ) is going to cost you an arm and a leg and there is much more involved in such a beast.
here is a VNC session connected to my logic analyser :
(http://www.uploadarchief.net/files/download/loganx.png)
One of the 'blades'
(http://www.uploadarchief.net/files/download/ana2.jpg)
This is a 16702B running HP-UX on a PA-Risc machine. The empty chassis ( so just the computer / display section ) of that thing was over 30K$ when new 10 years ago. The blades depend on their functionality but a blade holding 4 Meg and clocking in a 1Gsa/s pushes another 35K onto the machine
The blade above is a 500MHz 4 meg deep 68 channel acquisition card. It can do state and timing and hes sequentiel trigger.
I have another balde with 'advanced trigger' capabiltities. The user interface is like a flowchart. you can make really long trigger scripts.
1)- wait for pattern a to occur
2) if within time(x) pattern b occur then trigger
3) if within time y() from (1) pattern C does not occur then :
4) scan for pattern d , followed by pattern e ,f,g,h and if withing timestamp e from f there is no activity on input 4 then trigger with 70% pretrigger buffer.
for each step you can set masks and for each time stamp you can do shorter,longer , within or without.
you can do absolutely insane triggering with that machine. then again , take a look at the massive asics with heatsinks on their back ... that is not stuff you prop in a simple FPGA...
The machine can run cards in lockstep with each other , there is also a pattern generator card ( which i have too ) so you can generate stimuli as well , and the generator also has looping and sequencing capability , there is a scope card that basically lets you add 2 analog 1GHz channels. With its expansion chassis you can have 10 blades in this box. And if that is not enough there is the possibility to connect the analyser on the LAn and pair it remote with one or more infiniium oscilloscopes. Just plug in the IP addresses and the logic analyser goes and fetches the traces of the scope and displays it in time-step with whatever it captured.... there is a module to sync the scopes and analyser in time.
i hooked up my 54832D ( 1GHz 4 analog + 16 digital infiniium with 4Msa/s and 8 Meg memory) to this analyser and the i could simply scroll through the trace buffer while the analyser grabbed the analog data from the scope and visualised it on the same screen. everything was there : the 4 analog traces of the scope , the 180 or so digital traces of the anayser linked in various buses. it didn't even slow down.
pretty impressive given that this is a PA-risc running at barely 75MHz running a full bown Unix system with X-client
The analyser as it sits would have costed well over 200K$ when new. Pretty impressive stuff, even today, for a 15 year old machine... you should see the new machines like the 1690x ...
So all in all i think the little Salae does a good job for its price. I like the software , it reacts fast is intuitive and the packet decoders work well. ok there is no triggering but you can compensate using deep buffer memory and hope you catch everything in there.
Now, on the other hand a 'lister' like dave's 3000x scope has would be welcome.... That is especially handy for serial protocols. you can immediately see : here's a missing ack , here this got sent there etc. Clicking a line in the lister scrolls the traceview to that timepoint.
I got a demo yesterday of the new 4000x series scope. Pretty slick machine. I went to the boss afterwards and told him to buy me one.
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this is a usb logic analyser. 34 channels and $389
here is a list of bullet point features from their website:
[...]
They conveniently omit the memory depth, though. Development seems to be a bit stale, as far as I know they've been selling the same product for years. Users seem quite happy with it, though.
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Just watched the review video to the end. Dave seems unhappy with the software, but it's a breeze to use compared to the Bitscope unit I have sitting here as a paperweight.
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this is a usb logic analyser. 34 channels and $389
here is a list of bullet point features from their website:
[...]
They conveniently omit the memory depth, though. Development seems to be a bit stale, as far as I know they've been selling the same product for years. Users seem quite happy with it, though.
here is the specs list link: http://www.pctestinstruments.com/logicport/specifications.htm (http://www.pctestinstruments.com/logicport/specifications.htm)
Sample buffer: 34 x 2048 samples
Maximum sample compression: 2^33 to 1 (sample rates to 200MHz)
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Sample buffer: 34 x 2048 samples
Maximum sample compression: 2^33 to 1 (sample rates to 200MHz)
Data compression is great, until you need to capture a packet or two where the total number of transitions exceed the very limited memory.
Dave.
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ok there is no triggering but you can compensate using deep buffer memory and hope you catch everything in there.
Good point - you can capture a hell of a lot of data. Given that, and the lack of a "real" trigger, I think they should put some some effort into features for indexing and searching the captured data in software, as well as a simulated post-capture 'trigger' for those who don't want to learn a new way to do things. It would be a good selling point, I think - you could get pretty close to some real, professional triggering features, as long as you don't need any long "wait five minutes for this 100us packet" stuff.
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Sample buffer: 34 x 2048 samples
Maximum sample compression: 2^33 to 1 (sample rates to 200MHz)
Data compression is great, until you need to capture a packet or two where the total number of transitions exceed the very limited memory.
Dave.
Thanks Dave :)
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Good point - you can capture a hell of a lot of data. Given that, and the lack of a "real" trigger, I think they should put some some effort into features for indexing and searching the captured data in software
Search is essential for such huge data buffers. In fact you could say it almost useless without it.
That's why I said if it had search it probably would have got a thumbs up.
Dave.
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Can it export data into a more or less "human readable" format? I don't mean some massive dump of the raw data, I mean something with all the decodings and whatnot as the software shows otherwise. I'd happily sift through and manipulate the data in Vim or something.
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Sample buffer: 34 x 2048 samples
Maximum sample compression: 2^33 to 1 (sample rates to 200MHz)
Data compression is great, until you need to capture a packet or two where the total number of transitions exceed the very limited memory.
Dave.
But that's where trigger capability becomes useful. You can just delay the trigger to a later event, thereby skipping the first n packets, and cause sampling to begin at the packet of interest. You then have the entire buffer available beginning at the point of interest.
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But that's where trigger capability becomes useful. You can just delay the trigger to a later event, thereby skipping the first n packets, and cause sampling to begin at the packet of interest. You then have the entire buffer available beginning at the point of interest.
Great, if you don't need to see any extensive pre-trigger data that may have caused the issue.
To do any sort of decent long packet data inspection requires more than a few KB of sample memory, that will fill up very quickly.
Murphy will ensure that your requirements will outstrip your logic analysers capability >:D
Dave.
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The software looks pretty nice. I have to wonder, though, if it was developed by people who don't actually use it on a day-to-day basis.
The developers might need to sit down with a domain expert and figure out how it should really work. I can understand the software not having certain features due to the lack of hardware support but the "search the data" use case is something any domain expert would have known needed to be addressed.
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Great, if you don't need to see any extensive pre-trigger data that may have caused the issue.
To do any sort of decent long packet data inspection requires more than a few KB of sample memory, that will fill up very quickly.
Murphy will ensure that your requirements will outstrip your logic analysers capability >:D
Dave.
If your bug is repeatable, you don't need to see both at the same time. Capture the early information, then restart the sequence and capture the later information. I've yet to find a task that I couldn't complete using this method. No matter how deep your memory is, you'll eventually find its limit and need to use this sort of triggering.
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About the async serial problem: in the analyzer settings dialog you typed in the correct baud rate, but didn't uncheck the autobaud option, so when you re-captured it attempted to determine the baud rate again (and failed).
About the lack of decoded data triggering: I posted on Saleae's Facebook page the other day asking about just this:
Me:
Will there ever be support for triggering on a certain pattern of analyzer data? I guess that won't work if the analyzer can't keep up with the incoming data though.
Saleae:
Hi David, thanks for asking! Yes, that is going to happen and it's a big deal. I'm sorry progress is so slow on that front. We've hired one additional software person who will start in a few months, and are looking for 2 more: http://www.saleae.com/jobs (http://www.saleae.com/jobs). I really hope to do something like "12 months, 12 major features" and be able to do that along with everything else so we're just constantly making the software better and better.
David.
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Anyone have experience with the logic sniffer from dangerous prototypes?
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Can it export data into a more or less "human readable" format? I don't mean some massive dump of the raw data, I mean something with all the decodings and whatnot as the software shows otherwise. I'd happily sift through and manipulate the data in Vim or something.
Yes, it can do this. The file includes timestamps too so it's easy to go back and forth.
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Since that USB module is just a streaming input device, would it be possible to plug an ADC into it and use it as a SDR frontend or oscilloscope? (It would obviously require different software.)
It would be interesting if they made a USB 3.0 version with more channels and/or a higher sample rate. Such a device would also be very useful for adding USB 3.0 to a FPGA board.
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Firstly let me say that the Saleae is great for a whole lot of basic logic analyzer applications. I use it all the time for basic stuff. A lot of time time it's all you really need to get something working or diagnose basic problems. If you beginners types are looking to start a basic embedded design lab(stuff with microcontrollers), you probably won't be wasting your money on one of these USB logic analyzers. Especially if you don't have a 4-channel scope. Even if you later run into it's limitations and need a more powerful piece of gear, the USB analyzers are so small and simple to setup and quickly capture some data, it might still be your goto gear for quick simple jobs. Use the right tool for the job at hand. You don't drive your (metaphorical?)Ferrari on the golf course even through it might get you to the next hole faster, you take the golf cart.
Would the software be better if it had the features Dave talked about that are missing. For sure. But does it really considerably reduce the value considering the types of jobs you would be using it for? I don't think so. If your projects are basically making chips talk to a microcontroller, which I think applies to a lot of people, it's still a really useful tool in it's current state. And they are, albeit slowing, updating things. I'm surprised they haven't chimed in here yet actually. For a little history, they did a complete rewrite of the software to make it multi-platform recently and expand the decoding plugins.
That said, the one big issue I have with the Saleae software is that you can't re-import data into the analyzer unless it's still in the whole saved session format. They do have a "Save Session" and "Open Session" options which saves and re-imports essentially exactly the state of some dump as can be seen on the screen, but the format for that saved session-data is not documented or optional. What I wanted to do was capture some data with the Saleae, dump it to a python script to do some outside analysis, merge it with another dump from another trace that also had some outside analysis done to it, and then re-import and display both at the same time in the Saleae software. No go. I guess they don't want imports from other analyzer hardware to use their software for decoding or something. The saved session data looks to be in ASCII and doesn't look obfuscated, so at one point I intended to reverse engineer the file format but I lost interest before I figured out how they did the data compression. I didn't put a lot of time into it though.
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I just used my Saleae Logic to get my PIC (assembler code) talking to a flash memory. Saved me a ton of time by showing me where I'd gotten some of the timing wrong. :-+
Now I just need to figure out the decoder SDK so I can make some more specialised ones. (show the flash command names perhaps)
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AFAIK Saleae logic and USBee are based on the same CY68013A chip. I have a clone that can present itself to be either Saleae or USBee. After comparing the software I found Saleae is far better than USBee in terms of USB throughput.
There's another useful 3rd party free software called "PWM Logic" that turns Saleae logic into a PWM generator.
http://www.brrrbaybay.com/index.php/pwm-logic/about (http://www.brrrbaybay.com/index.php/pwm-logic/about)
Bob
How are the triggering options on the USBee software?
Maybe Dave could do a comparison between Saleae, USBee, and Sigrok software since they all run on the same hardware.
The Cypress chip supports 16 channels (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Lcsoft_Mini_Board) at reduced sample rate.
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I have the Logic8 for a few months and the reason I bought it in the first place was the rugged construction and very well designed software interface compared to similar low budget products (downloaded it before and used it in demo mode). I was also very satisfied (later) by the excellent customer communication and support.
After a lot of messing with SPI bus monitoring, I have to admit that Dave is right that the most important thing that is lacking is the 'search for data' function, and, secondly, the 'trigger on data' function, which will be a great plus for basic use (which is really the purpose of this product). Also, the rate of software upgrades is pretty slow, however I hope that the above features will be added soon, since they only have to do with software. Thumbs up for the review, I don't believe that it was harsh or negative from Dave, but rather a 'ringing bell' for (close) future improvements !
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Since that USB module is just a streaming input device, would it be possible to plug an ADC into it and use it as a SDR frontend or oscilloscope? (It would obviously require different software.)
It would be interesting if they made a USB 3.0 version with more channels and/or a higher sample rate. Such a device would also be very useful for adding USB 3.0 to a FPGA board.
Yes, USB ax pro does this with an AD9283 (http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ad9283/products/product.html) (according to reverse engineered schematics). Clones will likely have this part unpopulated due to cost.
There is a new cypress USB3 chip, but its $20-30: http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=CYUSB3011-BZXC (http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=CYUSB3011-BZXC)
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sorry to be a bit off topic but does anyone know where to get the grabber things that attach to the end of the leads? I don't care if they are cheap quality. I would just like to order a bunch for the cheapest price possible and then possibly buy some better quality ones later.
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sorry to be a bit off topic but does anyone know where to get the grabber things that attach to the end of the leads? I don't care if they are cheap quality. I would just like to order a bunch for the cheapest price possible and then possibly buy some better quality ones later.
Just search for "mini grabber" on ebay.
$2.50 for 5 *delivered*
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082)
or 20 for $6.95
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752)
Dave.
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Oops, sorry, those are solder types.
Genuine HP ones:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HP-Agilent-5090-4833-Logic-Analyzer-Grabbers-Clips-Set-of-20-5090-4356-/321087386410 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HP-Agilent-5090-4833-Logic-Analyzer-Grabbers-Clips-Set-of-20-5090-4356-/321087386410)
Dave.
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I have 2 of Dangerous prototype's OLS Logic Analyzers , and are waiting for the OLS-Client to support the advanced triggers , that Dogsbody put in there when he did the new verilog Daemon Core (It implements a lot of HP 16550a features)
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1711 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1711)
Specs: http://www.mygizmos.org/ols/Logic-Sniffer-FPGA-Spec.pdf (http://www.mygizmos.org/ols/Logic-Sniffer-FPGA-Spec.pdf)
That said i mostly use my DigiView DV-100 , due to the deep memory and compression.
I would not get a LA with less than 18 lines , 16-bit and 2 triggers. And was extremely happy for 8+ lines when i had to debug a GPIB interface.
The DigiView gets nice words from Nigel Jones , but is a bit more expensive than other hobby LA's
http://embeddedgurus.com/stack-overflow/2010/10/digiview-logic-analyzer/ (http://embeddedgurus.com/stack-overflow/2010/10/digiview-logic-analyzer/)
http://www.tech-tools.com/logic-analyzer-hardware-specs.htm (http://www.tech-tools.com/logic-analyzer-hardware-specs.htm)
I have been lurking on the ZeroPlus LA's , and like all the decoding options though some are $$$
I's love to get my hands on the new ARM SWD decoding stuff.
http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294 (http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294)
But as i'm just a hobbyist , that doesn't have any "nearby people hiding a 100K$+ LA" in an old closet (Hint..Hint Silicon ...)
I will prob. stich with my OLS'es (I'we just bought the 16-Chan extension i/f for both) , and will use my DW-100 for the more tricky stuff.
I Do have a "China Cypress 8-port" , but haven't even gotten around to test it , and it would never be my only , as it falls for the Minimum 18 Chan rule.
If you have a STM32F4-Disc or TI-Launchpad Arm board these can also be used ...
http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148 (http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148)
http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/ (http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/)
/Bingo
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sorry to be a bit off topic but does anyone know where to get the grabber things that attach to the end of the leads? I don't care if they are cheap quality. I would just like to order a bunch for the cheapest price possible and then possibly buy some better quality ones later.
Just search for "mini grabber" on ebay.
$2.50 for 5 *delivered*
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082)
or 20 for $6.95
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752)
Dave.
I have bought these , and while the grabbing is ok.
The resistance/connections sucks ....
I intended to use them with my HP3488 Switch for the relay boards.
There's a brass ring that you solder the wire to , and it needs a good "bang" with a hammer and a tool , in order to make a decent connection with the steelplate.
If that's done they're ok , and don't wait until you have allready soldered 20 :palm: , so you have to desolder all those wires , remove the tin , and "bang" it ... Do it upon receiving them.
/Bingo
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I's love to get my hands on the new ARM SWD decoding stuff.
http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294 (http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294)
I don't see the point of this unless you are developing an SWD programmer/debugger. For JTAG/SWD, you typically use off the shelf dongles (eg. from the MCU manufacturer) and the debugging interface internal in the MCU. Unless you are building complicated JTAG chains, there's not a whole lot to debug, apart from signal integrity issues that would need a (mixed-signal) scope anyhow.
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I don't see the point of this unless you are developing an SWD programmer/debugger. For JTAG/SWD, you typically use off the shelf dongles (eg. from the MCU manufacturer) and the debugging interface internal in the MCU. Unless you are building complicated JTAG chains, there's not a whole lot to debug, apart from signal integrity issues that would need a (mixed-signal) scope anyhow.
Spot on ... As right now : BlackMagicProbe
And also did the Versaloon STM32xx-Discovery port.
/Bingo
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I have 2 of Dangerous prototype's OLS Logic Analyzers , and are waiting for the OLS-Client to support the advanced triggers , that Dogsbody put in there when he did the new verilog Daemon Core (It implements a lot of HP 16550a features)
Heh, another person looking forward to the daemon core trigger support here. Once that's in place it will be a nice improvement in usability. Without the client support I'll stick with the ole SUMP for a while longer.
If you have a STM32F4-Disc or TI-Launchpad Arm board these can also be used ...
http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148 (http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148)
http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/ (http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/)
Thanks for those links! The stm32f4 code + ols profile looks useful. The 24 MHz limit + the chosen method of sampling is a bit silly IMO, but what the hell, it's a nice starting point. I just hope the cdc side of it works in one go, I was still looking for some easy to use example code.
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I've had my Saleae Logic for a few years now, I agree with most of what Dave said on it. The triggering is kind of weak and the lack of real-time packet display sucks. Overall though I'm quite happy with it for the price I paid. (mine saved my bacon several times including recently sniffing some i2c vga edid communications)
I mostly purchased mine due to the (then-upcoming) Linux support. If you look back a few years in the Saleae blog, he actually documents the process of designing the Saleae Logic and getting it to market.
The older Saleae Logic units are a little nicer I think... mine is all machined Aluminium with laser inscribed + painted text. The older ones came with a generic non-branded Case Logic case. (pictures attached)
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There's a brass ring that you solder the wire to , and it needs a good "bang" with a hammer and a tool , in order to make a decent connection with the steelplate.
If that's done they're ok , and don't wait until you have allready soldered 20 :palm: , so you have to desolder all those wires , remove the tin , and "bang" it ... Do it upon receiving them.
Thanks for the tip, I have some of those on the way... I assume you mean this?
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I don't have any relationship with them other than as a satisfied customer. I signed up just to make this post as I think Saleae has a great product and Dave's review wasn't super positive about it. (Nothing against Dave, generally I really agree with his reviews...)
All it had to do to get a thumbs up would have been a good search feature I suspect. I could maybe have overlooked the triggering (due to the almost unlimited buffer size) and free running mode. But missing all 3 is pretty inexcusable in such a mature product. And for a company that claims to: "tirelessly develop and refine the world's greatest [tiny] logic analyzer"
Dave.
What I find odd in all of this, given all the 'grunt' occurs on the PC, is there anything Open Source to 'compete' with the included software? I know sounds mad, to be honest I've seen commercial software get totally wiped out in terms of features and flexibility quite a few times now (look up Mapnik , used that to total replace a commercial map rendering offering, blew it out the water!) - this would be a relatively easy 'low hanging fruit' for most OS project groups.
Saleae would do themselves a favour by opening up some more API's on their software and let the coders fill in the gaps. Cutting edge features for free, community developed, developed by engineers for engineers, etc - lots of marketing spin to be had... Given they are in SV I would have thought this would have been a darn near obvious path to take.
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I bought this unit some time back but have not used it again (to mess about with the Raspberry Pi) since the day this review was posted. Strange coincidence. This was the teardown I saw back then: http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2011/05/31/saleae-logic-and-logic16-product-teardown/ (http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/2011/05/31/saleae-logic-and-logic16-product-teardown/)
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There's a brass ring that you solder the wire to , and it needs a good "bang" with a hammer and a tool , in order to make a decent connection with the steelplate.
If that's done they're ok , and don't wait until you have allready soldered 20 :palm: , so you have to desolder all those wires , remove the tin , and "bang" it ... Do it upon receiving them.
Thanks for the tip, I have some of those on the way... I assume you mean this?
Precicely ... Apply wack there and maybe check with a dmm , between brass and tip.
/Bingo
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What I find odd in all of this, given all the 'grunt' occurs on the PC, is there anything Open Source to 'compete' with the included software? I know sounds mad, to be honest I've seen commercial software get totally wiped out in terms of features and flexibility quite a few times now (look up Mapnik , used that to total replace a commercial map rendering offering, blew it out the water!) - this would be a relatively easy 'low hanging fruit' for most OS project groups.
There is Sigrok, which supports the Saleae logic, but it wasn't exactly competitive with the Saleae software, or even usable, last time I looked.
Saleae would do themselves a favour by opening up some more API's on their software and let the coders fill in the gaps. Cutting edge features for free, community developed, developed by engineers for engineers, etc - lots of marketing spin to be had...
They have an SDK both for building protocol decoders and more low-level interfacing with the Logic. No idea about the license. Of course the software is their main competitive advantage, so completely opening up the software is not in their best interest.
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What I find odd in all of this, given all the 'grunt' occurs on the PC, is there anything Open Source to 'compete' with the included software? I know sounds mad, to be honest I've seen commercial software get totally wiped out in terms of features and flexibility quite a few times now (look up Mapnik , used that to total replace a commercial map rendering offering, blew it out the water!) - this would be a relatively easy 'low hanging fruit' for most OS project groups.
There is Sigrok, which supports the Saleae logic, but it wasn't exactly competitive with the Saleae software, or even usable, last time I looked.
Saleae would do themselves a favour by opening up some more API's on their software and let the coders fill in the gaps. Cutting edge features for free, community developed, developed by engineers for engineers, etc - lots of marketing spin to be had...
They have an SDK both for building protocol decoders and more low-level interfacing with the Logic. No idea about the license. Of course the software is their main competitive advantage, so completely opening up the software is not in their best interest.
I'm not saying open source it completely, just provide a set of API's that allow people to extend it to cover gaps, so like the protocol decoder SDK, apply it to triggering for instance.
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Everytime i go onto their website i still think saleae's stuff is all about wank factor :palm: It's like the apple of the logic analyzer :palm:
Inadequate software, cheap hardware, cheap hooks and lastly ... barely any performance or whatsoever to back up the price tag.
Now, kids. A LA is going to be on a table pretty much all of it's life and usefulness isn't it? Well then what's the whole point of designing the damn case to be tough and making the software look oh-so-wanky :palm:
Now REALLY i wonder why people buy this instead of the open logic sniffer :-//
You might say software support but have they done anything to fix the async serial problem? It's been known for quite a while now
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I have 2 of Dangerous prototype's OLS Logic Analyzers , and are waiting for the OLS-Client to support the advanced triggers , that Dogsbody put in there when he did the new verilog Daemon Core (It implements a lot of HP 16550a features)
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1711 (http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1711)
Specs: http://www.mygizmos.org/ols/Logic-Sniffer-FPGA-Spec.pdf (http://www.mygizmos.org/ols/Logic-Sniffer-FPGA-Spec.pdf)
That said i mostly use my DigiView DV-100 , due to the deep memory and compression.
I would not get a LA with less than 18 lines , 16-bit and 2 triggers. And was extremely happy for 8+ lines when i had to debug a GPIB interface.
The DigiView gets nice words from Nigel Jones , but is a bit more expensive than other hobby LA's
http://embeddedgurus.com/stack-overflow/2010/10/digiview-logic-analyzer/ (http://embeddedgurus.com/stack-overflow/2010/10/digiview-logic-analyzer/)
http://www.tech-tools.com/logic-analyzer-hardware-specs.htm (http://www.tech-tools.com/logic-analyzer-hardware-specs.htm)
I have been lurking on the ZeroPlus LA's , and like all the decoding options though some are $$$
I's love to get my hands on the new ARM SWD decoding stuff.
http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294 (http://www.zeroplus.com.tw/logic-analyzer_en/news_detail.php?news_id=1294)
But as i'm just a hobbyist , that doesn't have any "nearby people hiding a 100K$+ LA" in an old closet (Hint..Hint Silicon ...)
I will prob. stich with my OLS'es (I'we just bought the 16-Chan extension i/f for both) , and will use my DW-100 for the more tricky stuff.
I Do have a "China Cypress 8-port" , but haven't even gotten around to test it , and it would never be my only , as it falls for the Minimum 18 Chan rule.
If you have a STM32F4-Disc or TI-Launchpad Arm board these can also be used ...
http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148 (http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148)
http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/ (http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/)
/Bingo
Hi i have also used the Logic Sniffer in past it is all right without case and those doggy mini grabbers. but if you shielded it properly and put some good quality cables and ic grabbers it works much batter. i believe there is lot of room for improvident on software side too.
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Now REALLY i wonder why people buy this instead of the open logic sniffer :-//
You complain about the Saleae software and then reference the OLS? How much time did you spend using either?
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Now REALLY i wonder why people buy this instead of the open logic sniffer :-//
because there is nothing good with ols, the hardware is "stolen" (yes, in my opinion if someone is selling OH/OS things with "own" name and zero innovation then this is stealing), the software partialy working - partialy not (yet, soon, maybe).
There is no innovation in simply copying other ppl work, giving funcy new name and making some stupid marketing
"open hardware/source" statements - buy here - we having so many cool things ...
Some ppl prefer to pay some more bucks to someone who really spend time on development.
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If you have a STM32F4-Disc or TI-Launchpad Arm board these can also be used ...
http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148 (http://jjmz.free.fr/?p=148)
http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/ (http://www.fischl.de/arm/sllogiclogger_logic_analyser_for_stellaris_launchpad/)
/Bingo
Thank you Bingo - at last a project for my $15 launchpad eval board!
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Oops, sorry, those are solder types.
Genuine HP ones:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HP-Agilent-5090-4833-Logic-Analyzer-Grabbers-Clips-Set-of-20-5090-4356-/321087386410 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HP-Agilent-5090-4833-Logic-Analyzer-Grabbers-Clips-Set-of-20-5090-4356-/321087386410)
Dave.
Thanks for the link :) I think if I bought them at the price they are at now it would end up a couple of dollars per clip. The auction still has 5 days to go so no guarantee I would get them at that price.
Still looking for some recommendations for cheap alternative though I will put a bid on those items you linked just in case I win it at the current price :)
Hope I'm not derailing the thread. Just tell me off if anyone is annoyed by my questions!!!
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sorry to be a bit off topic but does anyone know where to get the grabber things that attach to the end of the leads? I don't care if they are cheap quality. I would just like to order a bunch for the cheapest price possible and then possibly buy some better quality ones later.
Just search for "mini grabber" on ebay.
$2.50 for 5 *delivered*
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Colours-Single-Hook-Clip-Mini-Grabber-Test-Probe-for-SMD-IC-Multimeter-DIY-NEW-/140898966082)
or 20 for $6.95
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20-PCS-Mini-Grabber-SMD-IC-Test-Clip-Hook-Probe-Multimeter-Jumper-5-Color-P07-/200905035752)
Dave.
I have bought these , and while the grabbing is ok.
The resistance/connections sucks ....
I intended to use them with my HP3488 Switch for the relay boards.
There's a brass ring that you solder the wire to , and it needs a good "bang" with a hammer and a tool , in order to make a decent connection with the steelplate.
If that's done they're ok , and don't wait until you have allready soldered 20 :palm: , so you have to desolder all those wires , remove the tin , and "bang" it ... Do it upon receiving them.
/Bingo
Thanks for the tip mate :-+ I'm looking for the grabbers that have a pin sticking out of them that you push the logic probe female connector onto do you think I would be able to use these ones if I just solder a pin onto the connector after giving them a whack and checking the resistance?
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Now REALLY i wonder why people buy this instead of the open logic sniffer :-//
because there is nothing good with ols, the hardware is "stolen" (yes, in my opinion if someone is selling OH/OS things with "own" name and zero innovation then this is stealing), the software partialy working - partialy not (yet, soon, maybe).
There is no innovation in simply copying other ppl work, giving funcy new name and making some stupid marketing
"open hardware/source" statements - buy here - we having so many cool things ...
Some ppl prefer to pay some more bucks to someone who really spend time on development.
Stolen? U srs?
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Everytime i go onto their website i still think saleae's stuff is all about wank factor :palm: It's like the apple of the logic analyzer :palm:
Inadequate software, cheap hardware, cheap hooks and lastly ... barely any performance or whatsoever to back up the price tag.
Now, kids. A LA is going to be on a table pretty much all of it's life and usefulness isn't it? Well then what's the whole point of designing the damn case to be tough and making the software look oh-so-wanky :palm:
Now REALLY i wonder why people buy this instead of the open logic sniffer :-//
You might say software support but have they done anything to fix the async serial problem? It's been known for quite a while now
I actually sold my OLS and bought a Saleae analyzer. I haven't regretted that move.
- The OLS software is a piece of crap, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. The Saleae software, while pretty basic, is more polished. Moreover, you had to search the Dangerous Prototypes forum for updates, whereas Saleae updates are easily available on their website.
- The hooks that come with Saleae (sic!) are much nicer.
- I rather spend my time measuring instead of fighting with the measurement device. I think the price difference of $100 is less than two frustrations (on a student budget).
- I store my logic analyzer in a plastic storage box with a bunch of different meters, and a proper enclosure & case is a huge plus. I fitted my OLS in a generic ABS box, but had to store the grabbers in a bag...
- The performance may not be enough for demanding tasks, but as Dave pointed out, for SPI/I2C/UART it doesn't matter. Those cover 99% of hobbyist projects.
- Which async serial problem are you referring to? The autobaud may be broken, but it works a treat if you type the baud rate yourself.
Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Saleae. I'm just their happy customer. I like Dangerous Prototypes too, but in my opinion their OLS is not too great.
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I bought the 8 channel one year ago. Installed it in Win7 64-bit. Did not work! >:(
Contacted Saleae with the problem and got excellent help. They sent a "standalone-program" which worked without installation.
With the help of this little unit I suceeded in cracking the CAN-communication between the central unit in a Volvo
and the car-heater.
I do agree with Dave that more software functionality would be great. Killing the competition completely.
If possible do not buy "stolen" clones from China. Long term it will harm new products coming out.
/Roger
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The problem with the software in general is that it appears there aren't many users for LAs, which is why most free software is incomplete or sucks. Lack of interest from the users results in lack of interest from programmers.
When I purchased my analyzer I both checked the software and compared the hardware features. For me the OLS one seemed the rational choice but, as others, I wasn't very happy with the default software so I wrote my own.
http://dumb.ro/lafront/ (http://dumb.ro/lafront/)
It currently does I2C, SPI, Async Serial, 1-Wire and uWire, however the protocol parsers are written in JavaScript so anyone can make their own fairly easy (the API is not documented tho, didn't find the time for it).
I even have a search function on the todo list and was planning to support more devices in the future, including the saleae.
Anyway, I stopped working on that project while still in alpha (after about a month of work) since not enough interest was shown, to make me go on, however I find it much more usable than many of the LA applications I tried, so it's clear that good software is not that hard to write, it just has a very small user base and it's not worth improving on.
On the other hand, companies that sell a complete package (hardware and software), fail at the software side either because of bad management (maybe too much marketing involved - the wank factor that was mentioned) or because of bad developers.
Either way, the fact is that LA software will suck no matter what you chose. And yes, this is the reason why people chose a product over another these days, because the current software for a particular product does something that the user wants and the other software doesn't and it's clear to everyone that the state of the software won't change anytime soon, if ever.
Sorry for the long post, have fun!
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Has anyone here had a go with the Saleae SDK and either making new decoders or modifying existing ones?
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because there is nothing good with ols, the hardware is "stolen" (yes, in my opinion if someone is selling OH/OS things with "own" name and zero innovation then this is stealing), the software partialy working - partialy not (yet, soon, maybe).
There is no innovation in simply copying other ppl work, giving funcy new name and making some stupid marketing
"open hardware/source" statements - buy here - we having so many cool things ...
I don't quite follow the "stolen" hardware logic there. AFAIK, and I could very well be wrong, they (dangerous prototypes) designed the pcb and then put the already existing SUMP firmware from That Other Guy on it. And while I would not call it innovation (I'd call it an incremental improvement) they did slap on the cheapo PIC to 1) connect it to the PC and more to the point 2) store the firmware image in PIC flash and as you no longer need a xilinx config prom.
The OLS software is a piece of crap, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. The Saleae software, while pretty basic, is more polished. Moreover, you had to search the Dangerous Prototypes forum for updates, whereas Saleae updates are easily available on their website.
Now while the OLS software certainly has plenty of work to be done on it, AND while I am not a big fan of java for gui's (sluggish crap on average :P), I wouldn't go so far as call the OLS software a piece of crap. I am assuming you refer to http://www.lxtreme.nl/ols/ (http://www.lxtreme.nl/ols/) this one?
A couple of things the OLS software could fix (regarding your "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't") is the java style RXTX lib. Now THAT is horrendous crap. IMO java sucks for both hardware integration and gui's. And the hardware integration does suck in this case and has issues. The gui side is doable here IMO. Not great, but doable. (which is why I use it :P) And it exists, is free, and I can use it. :) And mostly ... the hardware doing the LA work in the back is definitely not a piece of crap IMO.
Incidentally, I don't own an open bench sniffer thingy, so no fanboism there I hope. One reason for not having bought one (to free up the nexys2) is it's still $50. That, and NO DIFFERENTIAL?!? O_O
Now to be fair, differential as a run time option is tricky. Right now I just have a modded sump with 24 single ended + 8 differential inputs. I would like to be able to switch between single ended and differential from user interface, but that is a bit tricky on the fpga side. At least, I have not figured out how to do that in an easy way. Yeah yeah, partial reconfiguration. Well, sod that. :P I said easy.
Anyways, lets not have this become a product X vs product Y thread. Both have strengths and weaknesses. You just pick whatever product is the best match for your needs. There's something to be said for a polished user interface. And there's also something to be said for decent triggering. And ... you can always buy a used proper LA on ebay if your budget allows. ;) My budget doesn't allow for that, so I choose the tinkering option. :P
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The problem with the software in general is that it appears there aren't many users for LAs, which is why most free software is incomplete or sucks. Lack of interest from the users results in lack of interest from programmers.
When I purchased my analyzer I both checked the software and compared the hardware features. For me the OLS one seemed the rational choice but, as others, I wasn't very happy with the default software so I wrote my own.
http://dumb.ro/lafront/ (http://dumb.ro/lafront/)
Neat!
You could see if you can join forces with http://ols.lxtreme.nl/ (http://ols.lxtreme.nl/) and double the development effort!
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The problem with the software in general is that it appears there aren't many users for LAs, which is why most free software is incomplete or sucks. Lack of interest from the users results in lack of interest from programmers.
When I purchased my analyzer I both checked the software and compared the hardware features. For me the OLS one seemed the rational choice but, as others, I wasn't very happy with the default software so I wrote my own.
http://dumb.ro/lafront/ (http://dumb.ro/lafront/)
Neat!
You could see if you can join forces with http://ols.lxtreme.nl/ (http://ols.lxtreme.nl/) and double the development effort!
I've used the dangerous prototypes openbench logic with the ols software with success to capture the behaviour of a vintage 80s microcomputer video chip (MSX2 V9938) with some friends.
It glitched three times on an entire day of usage and then a simple disconnect usb/connect usb did the trick. We ended up with tons of useful data though. The data can be saved to VCD which can then be further analyzed with the gtkwave [1] program.
Joost
[1] http://gtkwave.sourceforge.net/ (http://gtkwave.sourceforge.net/)
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I don't quite follow the "stolen" hardware logic there. AFAIK, and I could very well be wrong, they (dangerous prototypes) designed the pcb and then put the already existing SUMP firmware from That Other Guy on it. And while I would not call it innovation (I'd call it an incremental improvement) they did slap on the cheapo PIC to 1) connect it to the PC and more to the point 2) store the firmware image in PIC flash and as you no longer need a xilinx config prom.
wow great, big improvement :P Seriously, i hate such zero innovation ppl, this PIC on ols have no relation to LA functionality.
This could be FX2LP, FTDI, CP21xx, CPLD bootlaoder, different µc .. what so ever .. it would be still the same LA with the same client - innovation was here the biiiiiiiig announcement to catch as much as possible "idiots" to sell them pseudo OH/OS project.
But when you wish to see real innovations, check this one:
http://www.bastli.ethz.ch/index.php?page=BitHoundEn (http://www.bastli.ethz.ch/index.php?page=BitHoundEn)
This is incremental improvement, OLS is not. But back to the topic, Saleae .. and i said, they working on search functionality,
they added already many things of which Dave spoke during review into the beta version, so they doing something.
I know as well that they working on FX3 solution, yes, this time with some protection against clones (nothing special, but at
least something to eliminate all these scrap based 5USD clones).
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The problem with the software in general is that it appears there aren't many users for LAs, which is why most free software is incomplete or sucks. Lack of interest from the users results in lack of interest from programmers.
When I purchased my analyzer I both checked the software and compared the hardware features. For me the OLS one seemed the rational choice but, as others, I wasn't very happy with the default software so I wrote my own.
http://dumb.ro/lafront/ (http://dumb.ro/lafront/)
Neat!
You could see if you can join forces with http://ols.lxtreme.nl/ (http://ols.lxtreme.nl/) and double the development effort!
Thanks, small chances of that happening tho. First of all the Logic Sniffer is written in Java while my client is C++, I do know Java, but I don't really enjoy coding it.
To be honest, even if I'd keep working on the OLSFront, I'd still like to know there's the Logic Sniffer (jawi's client) under development, because (even tho I don't like Java) it DOES work on all platforms, while mine is Windows only.
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This must be a simular circuit, addet bonus as two channel scope.. clearly a copy both hardware and software.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261158100499 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261158100499)
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In fact, all you need is the dev board. The layout is damn near identical to the one in the product...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315)
You don't even need any firmware - all you need to do is change the Product and Vendor IDs using this utility (google it) - all the firmware is transferred from the PC software.
I bought one, and I can confirm that it works fine.
Brilliant! Thanks for the advice and only $11, thats a bargain.
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It glitched three times on an entire day of usage
that alone would be enough for me to grab a shotgun and blast it to pieces.... i do not tolerate having to debug the debugger ! A piece of test equipment must work !
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Dave, when you did the test with UART serial, you were using a inverted bit setting.
Does anybody have a really early version of the Saleae Logic? I got mine only a few months after it was released, it is solid aluminum, both front and back.
Personally I think the lack of advanced triggering isn't that big of a deal because of the massive sample memory and excellent export capabilities. I can do my own "advanced triggering" in a spreadsheet if I need to, and anything more advanced, I can just code some stuff up in minutes.
I'm really disappointed that Dave gave it a mediocre review because he already owns much better $1000+ hardware. I think Saleae is a key player in advancing the hobbyist scene.
My own opinion: http://frank-zhao.com/blog/index.php/opinion-low-cost-logic-analyzers (http://frank-zhao.com/blog/index.php/opinion-low-cost-logic-analyzers)
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I'm really disappointed that Dave gave it a mediocre review because he already owns much better $1000+ hardware. I think Saleae is a key player in advancing the hobbyist scene.
I gave it a mediocre review because it deserved a mediocre review!
It has no search capability, no advanced trigger capability, and no free running mode. They are the 3 things that make a a good logic analyser (and you don't need all 3 in a low cost kit)
And this is for a unit that's been on the market for what, 3+ years, and has a company dedicated to "tirelessly develop and refine the world's greatest [tiny] logic analyzer".
It simply didn't live up to expectation.
If I had reviewed it 3 years ago when it came out I would have been kinder about missing basic software features.
Dave.
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What a shame there isn't even a CPLD sitting in parallel with the microcontroller to search for trigger patterns. I'm all for nice, simple hardware, but it does look like a software engineer's interpretation of what a hardware engineer might find useful - and lacking any development expertise which a hardware engineer might have been able to supply. Another £10 on the hardware could have made for a much more useful product :(
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What a shame there isn't even a CPLD sitting in parallel with the microcontroller to search for trigger patterns. I'm all for nice, simple hardware, but it does look like a software engineer's interpretation of what a hardware engineer might find useful - and lacking any development expertise which a hardware engineer might have been able to supply. Another £10 on the hardware could have made for a much more useful product :(
At the speeds of current PCs, triggering could easily be done in software. Put the device in continuous streaming mode, stepping the trigger state machine on each input sample, and start recording once the state machine reaches its end state. For even more performance, compile the state machine to native code like what they do for packet filters (http://lwn.net/Articles/437981/), but a lot simpler. A slower PC might not be able to keep up with the full rate but that's better than not being able to do it at all. Pseudo-synchronous mode is also possible: whenever the bit designated as clock takes the desired transition, record a sample.
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Anyone have experience with the logic sniffer from dangerous prototypes?
Much more limited memory but way faster (200MSPS if on 16ch) with more channel count (32 if you get the 2nd buffer board). I tend to use both, the Saleae for protocol and OBLS for multi channel timing data.
Disagree on free_electron's comment that MSO's built in LA are better, the one's I tested (Agilent 3000x) can only trigger on a single byte pattern. So if you want steady trigger on 'e' in a UART stream with "eee" you are shit out of luck, I got an mbed with a simple script to send a trigger pulse on a "sentence". Navigating the captured data is also worse than dedicated LA's. A scope interface simply isn't meant for such things.
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The diodes used in the Saleae logic analyzer are these:
http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/dviulc6-4sc6/diode-esd-array-bidir-sot23-6/dp/1751961RL (http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/dviulc6-4sc6/diode-esd-array-bidir-sot23-6/dp/1751961RL)
%-B
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Are the input protection resistors about 1 M ohm?
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Are the input protection resistors about 1 M ohm?
They're around 4 orders of magnitude lower; IIRC Dave mentioned 100R in the video.
The specs say it has 1M input impedance but that's just the FX2LP's CMOS inputs.
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In fact, all you need is the dev board. The layout is damn near identical to the one in the product...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-3V-5V-CY7C68013A-56-EZ-USB-FX2LP-USB-2-0-Develope-Board-Module-Logic-Analyzer-/281036187315)
You don't even need any firmware - all you need to do is change the Product and Vendor IDs using this utility (google it) - all the firmware is transferred from the PC software.
I bought one, and I can confirm that it works fine.
Brilliant! Thanks for the advice and only $11, thats a bargain.
Beware! This general purpose development board comes with a 16-bit address EEPROM, the Atmel 24C128. The latest Saleae software expects an 8-bit address EEPROM like the 24C02 or similar, which is what is installed into their board. Therefore you'll need to change the EEPROM before even changing the Product and Vendor IDs!
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Ha Dave done a review on the Logic16 by chance? Not that there will be much difference since its using the same software but I was just curious as I didnt find one doing a quick search.
On a different note, I cant believe their current Beta has been in Beta since August 30th of 2012!
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Anyone have experience with the logic sniffer from dangerous prototypes?
Much more limited memory but way faster (200MSPS if on 16ch) with more channel count (32 if you get the 2nd buffer board). I tend to use both, the Saleae for protocol and OBLS for multi channel timing data.
Disagree on free_electron's comment that MSO's built in LA are better, the one's I tested (Agilent 3000x) can only trigger on a single byte pattern. So if you want steady trigger on 'e' in a UART stream with "eee" you are shit out of luck, I got an mbed with a simple script to send a trigger pulse on a "sentence". Navigating the captured data is also worse than dedicated LA's. A scope interface simply isn't meant for such things.
I bought fpga board from dangerous prototypes and use that as LA. It should be easy even if you never hear of fpga before. If i remember right, they have video tutorial to help you with that. I bought that board mostly because I wanted FPGA board and used it as LA just few times (JTAG, 1-wire, random generator) and it did the work. It does not have functions as some LA that I can use in school. but if you need just basics and you are beginner, that could be also a plus. I have always troubles and needs some time to find out how to measure what I want on those profi LA as I use them just occasionally.
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Dave, when you did the test with UART serial, you were using a inverted bit setting.
Yep. TTL serial is conventionally active low! Trap for young players there... Zoom in at various points (eg. 32:30) and you can see it treating the first low after a high as the start bit and then sampling after that. It then marks the spot after the last bit in red because the stop bit is missing!
Personally I think the lack of advanced triggering isn't that big of a deal because of the massive sample memory and excellent export capabilities.
I'd agree with that, but you really need a search function to seal the deal. "Record for ages" + "Search for interesting bits" and you can drop the old "I better set up my trigger right and wait..." mindset for good.
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Yes, an ATA bridge is even mentioned as one of the applications in the datasheet. Very versatile chip - there's other converters that can be made with it:
USB-ATA boards:
http://www.cypress.com/?rID=14406 (http://www.cypress.com/?rID=14406)
http://www.siphec.com/project/USB2ATA/ (http://www.siphec.com/project/USB2ATA/)
http://www.lctech-inc.com/Hardware/Detail.aspx?id=aae55eed-5eb4-44e1-b786-1c24acfa773d (http://www.lctech-inc.com/Hardware/Detail.aspx?id=aae55eed-5eb4-44e1-b786-1c24acfa773d)
USB-parallel converter:
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/USB2LPT/ul-17.en.htm (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/USB2LPT/ul-17.en.htm)
USB-serial converter:
http://www.cypress.com/?rID=40248 (http://www.cypress.com/?rID=40248)
http://www.eetkorea.com/STATIC/PDF/201004/EEKOL_2010APR30_INTD_AN_02.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD (http://www.eetkorea.com/STATIC/PDF/201004/EEKOL_2010APR30_INTD_AN_02.pdf?SOURCES=DOWNLOAD)
http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/periodical_dzcljs200711038.aspx (http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/periodical_dzcljs200711038.aspx) (Chinese)
But, just because the FX2 can be used to implement a lot of things doesn't necessarily mean you'll find an FX2 in that converter (especially one so cheap).
SATA is too fast for the FX2.
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Curious if any one has used the software recently it appears the trigger functionality is the same as it was during the review but search was added to decoded protocols.
Also thinking about using it with sigrok, anyone else tried and agree?