Author Topic: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown  (Read 36450 times)

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Offline AmericanLocomotive

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2013, 11:14:28 am »
While the chassis does seem to be made of somewhat thin metal, if it feels solid with the cover on, then who cares?

I care.
But there is no reason to. That metal is more than thick enough for the intended purpose. I've seen structural components of automobile bodies stamped out of thinner steel. Having super thick steel in a product like this is only good for making it heavier and increasing the wank factor. It offers no real benefits.

If you can't twist, distort, or otherwise bend or flex the device fully assembled with the cover on, then the chassis and cover were properly designed as a system to work together.
 

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2013, 11:26:19 am »
But there is no reason to.

Yes, there is.
It is totally unprofessional, and not found in any other professional brand test gear that I am aware of. If they cut corners there, what else are they willing to cut corners on?, or simply not care about?
It does not instill a not confidence in the QA and manufacturing processes.
Can you imagine if Agilent, Tektronix, or Fluke offered up rusty exposed metal chassis on their latest gear? Their arse would be hauled over the coals.
If Siglent want to play with the big boys and be taken seriously like for example Rigol are now, this is not the way to do it. Small things matter, engineers are naturally pedantic.
 

Offline ddavidebor

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2013, 12:00:46 pm »
and of course, if is rusted now, what will it be in ten year?
Davide Bortolami,
Fermium LTD
 

Offline Short Circuit

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2013, 12:02:26 pm »
Dave, have you noted that this thing has not the EU CE mark, but the china export ones?

That was the first thing I saw on the back. China Export, Siglent will not be able to legally sell the model in Europe.



They can sell in europe normally.
Towger and ddavidebor are correct, and the generator as-is is not legal to sell in europe.
Yes, they (Siglent) can sell it, but buyers can not legally put the device in operation or sell it to others.

As already explained, the CE marking is wrong. Also, there appears no identification of manufacturer or importer on the machine.
Easily fixed with a small label containing the correct CE mark and the name+address info of the entity which imports the machine into the EU.

Of course, it's all not that bigga deal. Nobody really cares about this kind of violations, especially not on specialized low-volume equipment like T&M.
On the other hand, it's sooo easy to do it right...

Directive 2004/108/EC, articles 8.1 and 9.2

Quote
Each apparatus shall be accompanied by the name and
address of the manufacturer and, if he is not established within
the Community, the name and address of his authorised representative
or of the person in the Community responsible for
placing the apparatus on the Community market.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2013, 12:05:23 pm »
If Siglent want to play with the big boys and be taken seriously like for example Rigol are now, this is not the way to do it. Small things matter, engineers are naturally pedantic.

Agree.

Chassis internal finishing can be better without high costs. It is more like it only need simple cheap things and someone who care this in product design (and when they make order to metal work company who make this. Just "command" that if you want sell chassis works for us, you need follow these standards or we find other who make deal for these parts.

I do not classify this as big fail but just as I like see old HP internals good finishing is part of product "quality feel" and these feels are important in markets.

And more, if there is (specially in some environments) generated heavy rust after some aging, it is also reliability question. (example dropped rust powder may in worst case lead to failures.)

I hope I can see next generation where this  metal work are also made some amount better.
Even as I have not seen rust there what individual SDG5000 equipment I have inspected, but I can also see that this is possible.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2013, 12:11:05 pm »
Dave, have you noted that this thing has not the EU CE mark, but the china export ones?

That was the first thing I saw on the back. China Export, Siglent will not be able to legally sell the model in Europe.



They can sell in europe normally.
Towger and ddavidebor are correct, and the generator as-is is not legal to sell in europe.
Yes, they (Siglent) can sell it, but buyers can not legally put the device in operation or sell it to others.

As already explained, the CE marking is wrong. Also, there appears no identification of manufacturer or importer on the machine.
Easily fixed with a small label containing the correct CE mark and the name+address info of the entity which imports the machine into the EU.

Of course, it's all not that bigga deal. Nobody really cares about this kind of violations, especially not on specialized low-volume equipment like T&M.
On the other hand, it's sooo easy to do it right...

Directive 2004/108/EC, articles 8.1 and 9.2

Quote
Each apparatus shall be accompanied by the name and
address of the manufacturer and, if he is not established within
the Community, the name and address of his authorised representative
or of the person in the Community responsible for
placing the apparatus on the Community market.

You habve seen David video.
Note that this equipment is for marketing area what is not EU.

I have EU localised SDG5000 and sure it is legal for sell inside EU.
Also CE marking is ok. And if mark is not ok, it is also legal to add this CE mark there if need.

There is full documentation of certificates and and also documents behind these certificates.
 
Edited: After I go to my workshop and take one to my hand, and measure, there is small error in CE logo. (before I look only my one picture and there was angle si that can not get right dimensions, proportions.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:23:55 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Eliminateur

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2013, 12:33:14 pm »
btw Dave, you described the Cypress SRAM as "Cirrus Logic" @24:29
 

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2013, 12:44:38 pm »
btw Dave, you described the Cypress SRAM as "Cirrus Logic" @24:29

Yep. I spent a decade working with Cirrus Logic chips, one of those mistakes that pops up every time.
 

Offline grego

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2013, 01:24:12 pm »
So, just for folks reading this thread lets summarize about the "rust" and welds Dave saw.

1. So far as we can tell he's the only one with the issue (at least 3 others of us have them, have looked and don't see it).
2. There is some disagreement if it is actually rust instead of the results of plasma cutting the frame.  I would say this is slightly supported by the fact that only the outer edges (e.g. the "top") of the sheet metal seem to have it, none of the cutouts do/did.
3. The welds (and I am NOT a welder here, just reading a few earlier comments) appear to be perfectly acceptable TIG welds for their purpose.  Unconfirmed and I will leave that to others who have a heck of a lot more knowledge about it to discuss.

I just hate to see a decent piece of kit get panned erroneously.  I'm not saying it isn't rust, but there seems to be a fair amount of evidence it's a one-off problem and/or not rust at all.

This is no way endorses the choice of such flimsy sheetmetal for the frame or the lack of any insulation below the power supply (which I found disappointing).
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2013, 01:58:59 pm »
2. There is some disagreement if it is actually rust instead of the results of plasma cutting the frame.  I would say this is slightly supported by the fact that only the outer edges (e.g. the "top") of the sheet metal seem to have it, none of the cutouts do/did.

Nope, the "rust" is all down the sides, and on the cutouts too.

Quote
3. The welds (and I am NOT a welder here, just reading a few earlier comments) appear to be perfectly acceptable TIG welds for their purpose.  Unconfirmed and I will leave that to others who have a heck of a lot more knowledge about it to discuss.

I did not mean to imply they aren't decent welds, just that it looks cheap and unprofessional to me.

Quote
I just hate to see a decent piece of kit get panned erroneously.

To me some things look very unprofessional compared to other similar class instruments from other manufacturers. That can't be erroneous, but can of course be a matter of opinion.
If I'm wrong on the rust/corrosion, so be it, but it still looks like crap!
 

Offline Eliminateur

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2013, 02:04:36 pm »
that weld is horrible and inappropiate(even if it's TIG) for simply holding the shape, a correct one would be a single spot weld on the excess metal(or a stitch of 2/3 small spot welds) which doesn't add material and only leaves the usual black spot we're all used to see
 

Offline Sine

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2013, 02:04:54 pm »
Well, it al comes down to cost doesn't it.
The keithley and agilent instruments use aluminum, no problems with rust there.
 

Offline grego

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2013, 02:08:39 pm »

Nope, the "rust" is all down the sides, and on the cutouts too.

I didnt notice it on the cutouts - hence my comment.  Probably I wasn't paying close enough attention!

Quote
I did not mean to imply they aren't decent welds, just that it looks cheap and unprofessional to me.

I was just pointing out that there were folks who have more knowledge about them is all.  I don't disagree necessarily that "normally" I would see riveted/bolted metal on those angles.

Quote
To me some things look very unprofessional compared to other similar class instruments from other manufacturers. That can't be erroneous, but can of course be a matter of opinion.
If I'm wrong on the rust/corrosion, so be it, but it still looks like crap!

I was more just trying to sum up what's come out since the video (a whole day <grin>).

BTW Dave you'll probably find when you review the 5000 a couple of annoyances in its user interface -- I won't spoil the fun for you but I'm interested to see if you trip over the same silly things I did.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2013, 02:18:54 pm »
I have carefully inspected agen (with measurements) CE logo and  it is not as typical China Import logo. Distance between C and E is more. But not enough for CE logo. So, there is error in CE logo.

Is it acceptable or not, who can give official answer? Then he need also give same answer for many other "brands" products. Even some products made inside EU - how we stop these to EU border?.


Then fun, it use same proportional dimensions as my Hewlett-Packard counter (it was near my hand) and also even more fun, in EU produced medical nurse equipment have exactly same distance proportionally.  But then, my one Epson printer have exatly right logo. HP laser printer have same as Siglent, Agilent made  system power supply have wrong CE mark, C and E distange same as Siglent, but C and E too thin. So... what to do. Make note and ask they stop these Agilent sell in Europe? Or HP printers etc etc.. so perhaps they have copied this CE logo from wrong place?

btw, difficult to find real tolerances what are accepted. If someone give dimensions or proportions what need follow, he need normally also give tolerances for dimensions or proportions.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 02:30:32 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Harmony OS
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2013, 02:26:34 pm »
Just a dust particle?



Alexander
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Offline tinhead

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 02:28:08 pm »
sure, that logo on the back looks more CE than China Export logo:

The middle line in E sign have to be shorter than the top/bottom lines -> and that's the case for the logo on Siglent
The distance between C and E have to be that long as the length of middle line in E sign -> and that's almost the case here

http://www.ce-zeichen.de/ce-zeichen-und-faq.html
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I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2013, 04:28:26 pm »
sure, that logo on the back looks more CE than China Export logo:


http://www.ce-zeichen.de/ce-zeichen-und-faq.html

Or it is something like intermediate between China Export logo and official European C E
Problem is not big but there is some possibility to accept or reject, and arbitrary decision may be possible because there is no given tolerances. (specially if there is some pedant pettifogger officer and bad day. European Commission's instructions in this case is unworthy poor quality and allow for arbitrary interpretations.

But also, whu it is so difficult for manufacturers copy these ready made official logo images? They are available in many places, they do not need copu from some other manufacturer, they can copu directly from official source.

But, lot of talking, In reality I do not think this any problem.
Hand up who can not regognize this is C E  but it is CE

There is also full report documents behind published certificates, made by accredited independent laboratory.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Harmony OS
 

Offline Rubi

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2013, 04:53:42 pm »
Hi

The metals is anodised which acts as an insulator. To get the shielding electrically connected they filed the coating away.
Of course then it loses its protection and starts to rust. A good workaround would be the use of aluminium.

Cheers Rubi
http://rubines.blogspot.co.at/
 
 

Offline JackOfVA

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 06:15:00 pm »
Hi

The metals is anodised which acts as an insulator. To get the shielding electrically connected they filed the coating away.
Of course then it loses its protection and starts to rust. A good workaround would be the use of aluminium.

Cheers Rubi
http://rubines.blogspot.co.at/

I thought that ferrous metals are difficult to anodize, and when they are the most common process is a black ferric oxide finish - commonly seen with screws and hardware, but not common at all for steel sheet.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2013, 06:53:52 pm »
Well, it al comes down to cost doesn't it.
The keithley and agilent instruments use aluminum, no problems with rust there.
Just because aluminum doesn't "rust" doesn't mean you can leave it unprotected.  It still corrodes and starts to look crappy if it's untreated.  Anodize or Alodine are good protection for aluminum without adding the bulk of powder coating or something.
 

Offline DarlingtonPear

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 09:51:15 pm »
I'm surprised that Siglent haven't responded yet. Lot's of discussion, but they have yet to weigh in. The rust sure surprised me.
Cheers!  -Vera
 

Offline Greg J

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2013, 10:08:18 pm »
I'm sure they are busy seeking and firing the culprit ;)
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 10:32:54 pm »
I'm surprised that Siglent haven't responded yet.

Really?
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Offline andersendr

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 01:00:14 am »
It looks like the case was made from one giant sheet of pre painted metal.  It then looks like it was cut out with a CNC punch machine and then some clean up either before or after it went through the press brake to get its shape.  I did not see any paint on the edges where there were cutouts.  It is easier, cheaper, and quicker to paint a giant flat sheet than individual formed boxes. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 01:08:49 am by andersendr »
 

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: EEVBlog #497 - Siglent SDG5000 Function Generator Teardown
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 01:17:32 am »
The middle line in E sign have to be shorter than the top/bottom lines -> and that's the case for the logo on Siglent
The distance between C and E have to be that long as the length of middle line in E sign -> and that's almost the case here
Ohhhhhh, common guys, are you serious? Legal, illegal, legal, illegal, legal .... this is EE forum not of some stupid Bar association ;D I have whole bag of those labels around somewhere for all countries - they were included as "extra" with project box I ordered online from China. You can print any labels as much as you wish but your your brand reputation is not printable and that what matters.





 


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