Author Topic: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply  (Read 94343 times)

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Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #200 on: August 22, 2013, 09:44:25 am »
(...)
Forget about sense or no sense, I'm talking about the basic DC accuracy display of the power supply, which someone complained was not very good on the Rigol. I was just showing that it's no better on the Agilent.

Are you comparing specs of the E3631A versus the DP832? For the 'Annual Accuracy, 25+/- 5C' of the DP832, they seem to be almost the same as to those of the E3631A, once you include the data for the third, lower voltage rail.

The only(!) difference in their line and load regulation seem to be Rigol spelling 'line' as 'linear'. I will go as far as saying these two PSUs are amazingly similar in their specs, given the nearly twenty years of progress we have witnessed since the E3631A hit the market.

Am I missing something here?

Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Agilent E3631A:
Programming:
 +6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA

Readback:
 +6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA

----
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Rigol DP832/A:
Programming:
 +5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
-30: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA

Readback:
 +5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
-30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA

 

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #201 on: August 22, 2013, 11:21:05 am »
Am I missing something here?

Yes, the price difference.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #202 on: August 22, 2013, 11:52:18 am »
Am I missing something here?

Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Agilent E3631A:
Programming:
 +6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA

Readback:
 +6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA

----
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Rigol DP832/A:
Programming:
 +5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV 10mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA 10mA
-30: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV 10mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA10mA

Readback:
 +5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
-30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA

Yes... correct specs as edited in purple ;)  I only checked the Rigol specs

Offline sync

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #203 on: August 22, 2013, 12:03:09 pm »
So, in ascending order (from #3/third most important to #1/most important), we get:

3. New displays and user interfaces are on the way - we should find a way to embrace and continually improve them.
2. More important than the display/UI (which is very important) is signal aquisition and processing integrity.
1. More important than 1 or 2 is that test equipment should do no harm to a responsible user or the user's DUT.

I agree. A lab power supply should not kill the DUT. I learned it the hard way. I'm sceptical about the power on spikes. Rigol should fix this.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 12:04:56 pm by sync »
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #204 on: August 22, 2013, 12:37:09 pm »
Looks like it is a fault by design, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118 Has anyone asked Rigol about it, if they don't watch Dave's channel, and if they know a quick fix for it?

The local rep has said he'll get Rigol to take a look at it. These Chinese companies cannot access youtube etc.

Just some general info: if you make a video with a bug, upload it to youku.com, I got a reply from Rigol that they will show it to the R/D department. After I first got no reply due to the youtube link.
A youku video is worth a 1000 Chinese symbols ;)
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Offline sync

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2013, 12:40:04 pm »
Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.

Would tend to agree with that. Anything else?
From looking at Daves video, i think Rigol got it almost right. As first time user he had no problem to use it. That's a good sign. Compare that to the Atten PSU.

The numeric keypad should be a standard layout. CC mode should be signalled with dedicated LEDs or a different color on the channel on/off button back light. The binding posts should be arranged that the two independent channels can be connect to a symmetrical supply with a standard 19mm shorting bar.
 

Offline xchip

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #206 on: August 22, 2013, 12:45:17 pm »
Haven't done anything with it, or anything else, I've been very sick for a week now.

Hey Dave, I hope you get well soon! :)

Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #207 on: August 22, 2013, 01:08:25 pm »
The numeric keypad should be a standard layout. CC mode should be signalled with dedicated LEDs or a different color on the channel on/off button back light. The binding posts should be arranged that the two independent channels can be connect to a symmetrical supply with a standard 19mm shorting bar.

I think, with all the knowldege and experience of the members of this forum we should design an eevblog lab PSU. Lab PSUs are a hot topic for everyone, for beginners up to professional EEs and T&M junkies :-)
 

Offline sync

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #208 on: August 22, 2013, 01:17:00 pm »
I think, with all the knowldege and experience of the members of this forum we should design an eevblog lab PSU. Lab PSUs are a hot topic for everyone, for beginners up to professional EEs and T&M junkies :-)

... designed by the EEVblog user committee ;D
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #209 on: August 22, 2013, 01:31:55 pm »
Dave did this already, interesting video about the schematic:


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Offline madires

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2013, 01:42:45 pm »
Dave did this already, interesting video about the schematic:

I was thinking of a standard lab PSU, something with 2 * 0-30V at 3A/5A and 0-12V at 3A for example.
 

Offline H.O

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #211 on: August 22, 2013, 01:45:12 pm »
Ha, right, good luck coming to a consensus on the design of that one....geez  :-)
I've followed this thread and I have to say it both amazes and amuses me.
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #212 on: August 22, 2013, 03:23:31 pm »
Am I missing something here?

Yes, the price difference.

OK. Was thinking of your 0.6% comment from earlier in the thread. If you use the +6V rail on the E3631A to generate 3.3V, then the maximum deviation I get is 0.25%.

Yes... correct specs as edited in purple ;)  I only checked the Rigol specs

I have double checked my numbers. Won't rule out I have overlooked something, but it seems there may be more than one set of Rigol's specs in circulation then. My numbers for the E3631A is from page 16 of the service manual, dated April 2000. The DP832/A specs I used is from page 4 of the the DP800 datasheet file downloaded yesterday from rigol.com. The file is named DP800_DataSheet_EN.pdf, dated August 2013 (date on bottom of last page).
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #213 on: August 22, 2013, 03:58:20 pm »
PS and just to mess with the heads of some of the contributors to this thread: I am rather seriously thinking about buying a DS2072 for my home lab. Just because I am critical of a manufacturer, it doesn't follow I see the world in Black and Whlte.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #214 on: August 22, 2013, 04:17:30 pm »
I have double checked my numbers. Won't rule out I have overlooked something, but it seems there may be more than one set of Rigol's specs in circulation then. My numbers for the E3631A is from page 16 of the service manual, dated April 2000. The DP832/A specs I used is from page 4 of the the DP800 datasheet file downloaded yesterday from rigol.com. The file is named DP800_DataSheet_EN.pdf, dated August 2013 (date on bottom of last page).

Not trying to be a jerk but I checked that pdf and the corrected numbers I posted are what are on that pdf.

Offline Zbig

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #215 on: August 22, 2013, 04:29:40 pm »
PS and just to mess with the heads of some of the contributors to this thread: I am rather seriously thinking about buying a DS2072 for my home lab. Just because I am critical of a manufacturer, it doesn't follow I see the world in Black and Whlte.

Don't overestimate your influence on people's heads here. I, for one, couldn't possibly care less about any of your buying decisions.
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #216 on: August 22, 2013, 04:59:45 pm »
Not trying to be a jerk but I checked that pdf and the corrected numbers I posted are what are on that pdf.

Providing constructive criticism, public peer review, plus pointing out potential mistakes and errors is not being a jerk. It is the foundation of science.

...and I still cannot see it, please see attachment. Time for some new glasses here? :-//
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #217 on: August 22, 2013, 05:15:15 pm »
You don't need glasses but I looked in 4 places from the site and they all have the numbers I posted.  The second two links take a real long time to load but they do work.

Main site on the specifications tab here
Data sheet pdf here
Spec sheet pdf here
Owners manual pdf page 107 here
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 05:19:00 pm by robrenz »
 

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #218 on: August 22, 2013, 08:31:17 pm »
You don't need glasses but I looked in 4 places from the site and they all have the numbers I posted.(...)
Actually I see two sets of different specs in your links, both different from the values I posted earlier. The numbers I provided gives different specs between the low and the pair of high rails. The data sheet in question is linked from here, and as mentioned is dated August 2013, being the most recent data sheet I could find.

From your links I got these sets:

Rigol NA homepage:
Programming: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.05% + 5mV Current 0.15% + 5mA

Data sheet, March 2013:
Programming: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.05% + 5mV Current 0.15% + 5mA

Spec sheet (copy from manual below):
Programming: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA

Owner's manual March 2013:
Programming: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA

No differences between any of the rails, apparently. A total of 3 different specifications, so presumably the specs changed over time as the product was being readied for full scale production.

----
Edit: I checked the most recent data sheet for the E3631A, publication 5968-9726EN dated April 18th 2013. The values I provided earlier from 2000 still seem to be current.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:42:38 pm by ElectroIrradiator »
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #219 on: August 22, 2013, 08:37:26 pm »
I think you may be looking at the DP831 specs on page 105 instead of the DP832 specs on page 107.

Offline ElectroIrradiator

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #220 on: August 22, 2013, 08:46:56 pm »
I think you may be looking at the DP831 specs on page 105 instead of the DP832 specs on page 107.

Yep, you are right, I was. :palm:

So there are only two different specs for the DP832 out there. The one from March you provided, and the one from August I wrote earlier.
 

Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #221 on: August 23, 2013, 12:44:08 am »
I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact.   In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron).  Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software.  Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.

Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?

We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point!   May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps?  Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.
The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #222 on: August 23, 2013, 12:51:28 am »
I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact.   In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron).  Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software.  Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.

Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?

We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point!   May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps?  Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.

So each person should buy only what they need, not what brings them happiness or pleasure?  Other than test gear, what does that apply to?  Should I buy steak or just bread and potatoes?  A sports car, or just the cheapest Toyota they make?  A house with an extra room or just the bare minimum for the minimum objects I need to live?

What's wrong with someone being into test gear?  I am into watches.  I have about 60 watches.  I just like them.  Old, new, mechanical, automatic, eco, digital, cheap, expensive, plastic, metal, ones I made myself, ones I had made, ones I got at yard sales, and everything in between.  Why should people not indulge their desires if they have the means and desire to do so?  Are people neglecting to feed their kids because they want that new DSO?  :scared:
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #223 on: August 23, 2013, 12:51:55 am »
I have to say that the mentioned Agilent E3631A is a perfect example for what I call eye-cancer gear. In 2013 offerinbg a product in this price range with such an atrocious display is in my opinion a crime. In the 21st century a good multi-color high-res display and some nice layout & software design is not too much to ask for.

But also the Rigol is in some aspects more of a they-tried-but-failed product in terms of usability: true, the monochrome themes are not so bad really, at least well readable, but what is the point in having a multi-color display, if you just use one color in various brightness? I think these themes should be upgraded with some colors for warnings and and some additional info (e.g. current/voltage limit reached), and in addition they should design some "modern" ui elements that take full usage of state-of-the-art fonts and gui design. Clearly in the sister product DP832A they tried to do that, but ultimately failed, because the three display sections for the outputs are not really have-a-quick-look friendly. And they I don't even want to mention the completely botched numeric keys and rotary knob. Whoever came up with that should be sentenced to having to use such a keypad for the rest of his life.

All in all I think it's very refreshing for the market when new and feature-rich products get released by companies such as Rigol which now clearly have evolved from the entry/hobbyist segment into the (semi-)professional region. Many of the older professional big players have just kind of slept for the last 20/30 years when it comes to product design and usability. Today everything is basically done in software (and this often better than any hardware could ever do), so I think the customers have a right to demand products which utilize their capabilities to the full extend.

Yes Dave this post is a perfect example of what EE equipment is all about, how many colors can the display show, better looking UI's with more menu features  :-DD  And oh the older Agilent sucks because it does not have a Blinged out display  |O
Well at least the companies that can create the most high tech looking displays are now making money, who cares how well the equipment works, just so long as it looks good  ::)
The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 

Offline Dread

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Re: EEVblog #509 - Rigol 832 Lab Power Supply
« Reply #224 on: August 23, 2013, 12:54:09 am »
What's wrong with someone being into test gear?  I am into watches.  I have about 60 watches.  I just like them.  Old, new, mechanical, automatic, eco, digital, cheap, expensive, plastic, metal, ones I made myself, ones I had made, ones I got at yard sales, and everything in between.  Why should people not indulge their desires if they have the means and desire to do so?  Are people neglecting to feed their kids because they want that new DSO?  :scared:

You understand how to read the Time, Right?
Why collect a hundred books if you can't read or 60 watches if you don't know how to tell time?  Why buy test equipment if you really don't know how to use it?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 12:57:02 am by Dread »
The Optimist says the glass is half full, the Pessimist says its half empty, an engineer only see's a glass that’s twice as big as it needs to be!
 


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