EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 17, 2013, 03:54:16 am
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Dave gives his initial impression on the Rigol 832 triple output 195W lab power supply.
EEVblog #509 - Rigol DP832 Lab Power Supply (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWgF1SORkk#)
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I like all the features (and imminent hackability) of this power supply, but the numberpad layout absolutely kills it for me. If it was laid out more like the 1000 series power supplies, I'd be putting my order in for a $400 power supply today.
You can even see Dave have to hunt with his thumb when typing in values.
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I could get used to the number pad, though I'm not a fan of it. I'd much prefer a more intuitive (accelerated) response to the dial.
Dave.... I think the reason the main display lagged the set display was because the main display is an actual, measured readout. Have you tested how quickly it can jump from one voltage to another? The setpoint may be too heavily filtered in hardware to make it change as swiftly as you can adjust it with the knob in software - and if that's meant to be a true measurement, I'd prefer they didn't make it lie to me while I'm turning the knob just to make it look better.
The green LCD looks surprisingly good. It does remind me of a CRT, but not in the "look what I can do!" marketing wank bullshit sense like that retarded dashboard mode... (Seriously, whose dumb-ass idea was that?)
I think the Hello Kitty-ness of it goes away when you turn off the damn dashboard.....
Overall.... *drool*
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I like all the features (and imminent hackability) of this power supply, but the numberpad layout absolutely kills it for me. If it was laid out more like the 1000 series power supplies, I'd be putting my order in for a $400 power supply today.
You can even see Dave have to hunt with his thumb when typing in values.
Same here. I know if the layout was better (common Rigol) and it didn't have that initial spike (not saying I wouldn't ever get it) I would get it this minute. I still may... eventually.
Dave.... I think the reason the main display lagged the set display was because the main display is an actual, measured readout. Have you tested how quickly it can jump from one voltage to another? The setpoint may be too heavily filtered in hardware to make it change as swiftly as you can adjust it with the knob in software - and if that's meant to be a true measurement, I'd prefer they didn't make it lie to me while I'm turning the knob just to make it look better.
I thought about that at first but looks more like an update-after-timeout type response. If you look you'll see that it doesn't change at all while he wheels then it snaps to the latest value. I like what someone said (I think a YouTube comment) about protecting the load if you pass the target voltage and "spring" back. The output would have never tracked and all will be well. I actually rather like that. Consider if you were adjusting the 1v place and overshot your destination by one or two volts. No problem because the output only tracks when you settle. Move slow and it always tracks which can be assumed you're being careful and want it to track with you. Just a guess but sounds good to me.
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Dave.... I think the reason the main display lagged the set display was because the main display is an actual, measured readout. Have you tested how quickly it can jump from one voltage to another? The setpoint may be too heavily filtered in hardware to make it change as swiftly as you can adjust it with the knob in software - and if that's meant to be a true measurement, I'd prefer they didn't make it lie to me while I'm turning the knob just to make it look better.
Of course, you wouldn't want that. I'm sure the problem lies in the set value updating speed.
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I thought about that at first but looks more like an update-after-timeout type response. If you look you'll see that it doesn't change at all while he wheels then it snaps to the latest value. I like what someone said (I think a YouTube comment) about protecting the load if you pass the target voltage and "spring" back. The output would have never tracked and all will be well. I actually rather like that. Consider if you were adjusting the 1v place and overshot your destination by one or two volts. No problem because the output only tracks when you settle. Move slow and it always tracks which can be assumed you're being careful and want it to track with you. Just a guess but sounds good to me.
Ah, I see. Not a bad idea. I wish it could be disabled in software, then - that's something I'd rather handle with OVP, personally, but I can see how somebody might like it.
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I just noticed that in the display settings, the LCD is showing multiple colors at the same time, which means that they are using a color LCD instead of one with a RGB backlight. I wonder if that means that the 832 and 832A use identical hardware, and the only differences are in the firmware? I wonder if an 832 could be hacked into a 832A?
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I thought about that at first but looks more like an update-after-timeout type response. If you look you'll see that it doesn't change at all while he wheels then it snaps to the latest value. I like what someone said (I think a YouTube comment) about protecting the load if you pass the target voltage and "spring" back. The output would have never tracked and all will be well. I actually rather like that.
That would be absolutely horrendous.
If you know what voltage you want type it on the (weird) keypad. The knob is to find the voltage or current when something else happens, like a regulator dropping out or an over voltage trip point.
If the output doesn't track the knob in pretty much real time it may as well not have one.
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I thought about that at first but looks more like an update-after-timeout type response. If you look you'll see that it doesn't change at all while he wheels then it snaps to the latest value. I like what someone said (I think a YouTube comment) about protecting the load if you pass the target voltage and "spring" back. The output would have never tracked and all will be well. I actually rather like that.
That would be absolutely horrendous.
If you know what voltage you want type it on the (weird) keypad. The knob is to find the voltage or current when something else happens, like a regulator dropping out or an over voltage trip point.
If the output doesn't track the knob in pretty much real time it may as well not have one.
Yeah that is a good point. I just tried justifying the behavior and really it is the only thing I could think of. Also, some may prefer to "dial in" the voltage for old times sake... who knows. Makes as much sense as the keypad layout at the moment. :D But yes, I'll agree, it is trying to get two systems to behave similarly. If there wasn't a number pad than this feature does make sense.
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For a moment I thought Dave had a guest presenter for this video. You sound a bit crook mate! ???
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For a moment I thought Dave had a guest presenter for this video. You sound a bit crook mate! ???
Sagan and I have a bad virus, of the long lasting 5+ day kind apparently, it's "going around" :(
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Hm...I have again the strange feeling,this video is just too commercial. Once again: "Look how Rigol is much better then its shitty competitors.. Since i have this PSU i got lots of chicks, better job, stronger erection and more self confidence. Buy this product and your life will be as never before...call now..." and so on.
For example this Voltage spike at the power on can kill your 100k$? Chip if you forgot to disconnect your board from PSU(which can happen very easily), and any overvoltage protection will help you.Moreover we dont know if this spike appears in some other situations....
But all this excitement and "sugar crust", and the last scene where you are leaning on this PSU, telling people it is the best on market and blabla...
I understand you have to make money from your videos, and you have to give positive feedback, otherwise anyone will pay you for negative advertisement, but it was just to obvious to me.
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well Dave, this time :--
This is not professional power supply, that transient/huge spike during power-on is everything but not professional, it shows that Rigol didn't designed or tested it properly, who knows if there are no other spikes in different situations. The last thing i need is to sit for a week and test what works and what not. Is it worth 400$ ? Ehm, no, it's not:
1- for that money i can buy 3 old Xantrex PSU, they do have RS232/GPIB, user I/O and no any surprises while switching or changing anything.
2- why someone would pay 400USD for circuit destroyer?
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Hm...I have again the strange feeling,this video is just too commercial. Once again: "Look how Rigol is much better then its shitty competitors.. Since i have this PSU i got lots of chicks, better job, stronger erection and more self confidence. Buy this product and your life will be as never before...call now..." and so on.
For example this Voltage spike at the power on can kill your 100k$? Chip if you forgot to disconnect your board from PSU(which can happen very easily), and any overvoltage protection will help you.Moreover we dont know if this spike appears in some other situations....
But all this excitement and "sugar crust", and the last scene where you are leaning on this PSU, telling people it is the best on market and blabla...
I understand you have to make money from your videos, and you have to give positive feedback, otherwise anyone will pay you for negative advertisement, but it was just to obvious to me.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but I don't think Dave is "commercial" I think he's just being Dave - he has his opinions - everyone does - and when he gets excited he shows his excitement.
Plus, as he always says, "it's not a review" - "it's just a first impression". So, I wouldn't put too much "commercial" emphasis on it.
Having said that, I think your comment about Dave's comment that "for example this voltage spike could kill your $100k board" was interesting in light of the fact that the "non-review" was sailing nicely pretty much all the way through and then we got to the tests where we had what? Spikes. Just seems to me that if spikes could kill a $100k board that we should be vetting the spike issue a bit further. Not everyone has a $100k board but I doubt everyone wants to disconnect their device(s) before every PS power-up.
Having said all that, if the spikes are non-issues then the excitement really is warranted - what other power supply delivers all the rest of the performance and functionality for the same price or less? Not many, if any. The product has great potential. Rigol just needs to finish it by eliminating the turn-on spikes. When the outputs are off they should be off, and when they turn on they should turn on gracefully. (Probably should make sure they turn off gracefully too.)
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Hm...I have again the strange feeling,this video is just too commercial. Once again: "Look how Rigol is much better then its shitty competitors.. Since i have this PSU i got lots of chicks, better job, stronger erection and more self confidence. Buy this product and your life will be as never before...call now..." and so on.
Same reply I gave to your same comment on Youtube:
If I'm not mistaken, you've accused me of this commercial bias before, you are wrong. Lets see YOU go buy the supply and do a first impressions review and compare it with the ATTEN, and see what your reaction is. If it's a nice product I say so, if it's a shit product, I say so. It's not my fault if *insert manufacturer here* makes good stuff or crap stuff all the time. Rigol happen to make generally good stuff. If this video was "too commercial" why? would I mention the BAD stuff I don't like?
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Same reply I gave to your same comment on Youtube:
Yes, i did. It was Tekway oscilloscope first impression video #487 . And then again you were comparing it to Rigol all the time, talking how much Rigol is better then this crap. Moreover you done lots of Rigol (positive) reviews before, that is why i am thinking Rigol is paying you for positive feedbacks (which is ok to me, since you have to earn money? somehow). I would glad to review Atten and Rigol PSU but i am not that rich to buy them.
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Having said that, I think your comment about Dave's comment that "for example this voltage spike could kill your $100k board" was interesting in light of the fact that the "non-review" was sailing nicely pretty much all the way through and then we got to the tests where we had what? Spikes. Just seems to me that if spikes could kill a $100k board that we should be vetting the spike issue a bit further. Not everyone has a $100k board but I doubt everyone wants to disconnect their device(s) before every PS power-up.
Sure, and I have no idea if this is a non-issue or not yet.
I'm not the be-all-end-all last-word authoritative review source.
I maybe found an issue (small or large, your choice), so I presented it, lets see if others can replicate it. And I need to do some more testing of my own too of course.
For all I know it could be some sort of capacitive charge issue that goes away if you leave the supply off for longer, or I could have had a dicky connection on my load, or....
How much energy in a 4 V spike that lasts for microseconds?
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I'm quite impressed with this PSU and $400 is pretty reasonable.
Quite tempted to just go order one now
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Dave, first off, EEVers everywhere thank you for the reviews, and also for hosting and facilitating the forums - there is a lot of valuable information exchange both objective and subjective that happens as a result of your work.
On the spike thing I'm with you, it's not clear if it's an issue; it's good that you surfaced it with the initial testing that you did and we'll see if anyone else replicates it or has any insight on it. It's part of the beauty of the forum - you have a community here that can figure out a lot of stuff.
Just one related question - does this 832 spec mean anything relative to what we saw in the video? ““Less than 50 (micro) sec for output to recover to within 15 mV following a change in output current from full load to half load or vice versa.”
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Same reply I gave to your same comment on Youtube:
Yes, i did. It was Tekway oscilloscope first impression video #487 . And then again you were comparing it to Rigol all the time, talking how much Rigol is better then this crap. Moreover you done lots of Rigol (positive) reviews before, that is why i am thinking Rigol is paying you for positive feedbacks (which is ok to me, since you have to earn money? somehow). I would glad to review Atten and Rigol PSU but i am not that rich to buy them.
OK, I'll be quite frank, there is nothing that pisses me off more than people who claim I either being paid to give positive reviews, or have some sort of bias, when I clearly demonstrate time and time again that is not the case.
I don't mind if people don't like my review and comments, that's fine if you have another view, but please base them on facts.
Let get some facts straight. The Tekway as tested was crap, and I have video evidence to back that up. It had crap pulse response, and it had crap trigger stability for starters.
Do you really think that an oscilloscope, an instrument that is designed to measure and display a signal faithfully should have got a positive review? If you do, then quite frankly you are bonkers.
The result of that Tekway review? - my good mate Charles likely won't loan me anything ever again. You think I did that deliberately? I called it as I saw it.
The ATTEN PSU was crap. In fact I took some heat for giving it a barely thumbs sideways.
So I'm calling you out:
Show me the evidence where the Rigol has the same signal integrity issues as that Tekway I tested.
Show me the evidence where the ATTEN is better to use and a more professional instrument than the Rigol.
Explain why I would show and say BAD things about the Rigol if they were paying me? WHY? Answer the question.
If you can't answer those then STFU with your ridiculous claims.
Yes, I'm sick, I'm tired, and I'm cranky. You got what you deserved. I have no tolerance for people who make unsubstantiated accusations. Back them up or bugger off.
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Does it act as a DCV multimeter when the channels are off?
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Does it act as a DCV multimeter when the channels are off?
good question
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"Show me the evidence where the Rigol has the same signal integrity issues as that Tekway I tested."
I don't own Rigol, so i couldn't compare it to my Takeway. Takeway is by far not the perfect scope, but it is excellent for its price. I wouldn't expect ideal signal integrity and super smooth operation from a 300 Euro scope. But it does its job for hobby segment (the segment it is designed for) very good.
The bad things you mentioned about this Rigol PSU aren't killer issues, some buttons or colors you don't like,very subjective, who cares.If I would do a payed reviews, i would also point some light disadvantages , to make my video more credible... Else it would be too perfect.
It seems you don't have tolerance to negative feedback, i know people like that. They ask for feedback, but once you criticize their work, they go berserk on you.
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So I'm calling you out:
Show me the evidence where the Rigol has the same signal integrity issues as that Tekway I tested.
i'm not addressee, but you in wrong thread Dave, this here is about Rigol PSU and not broken Tekway :blah:
Talking about ignorance, i and other professionals made measurments on Tekway/Hantek and didn't found anything what you found.
Sure, there was for some time big batch of products with worse response when they got hacked, but clearly not on untouched devices.
The unit you had was broken or not calibrated. I know how fucking stupid Hantek/Tekway (or who ever is the person sending replacement mainboards .. i have a whole batch of them, not calibrated, even DOA replacement boards. Charles probably missed that. But all that didn't means anything when talking about brand new devices taken out of the box and their performance). So i don't see there an issue anymore (or at least until next crap hw/sw update).
Talking about one-off issues, well, maybe the Rigol PSU you tested have does have such one-off issue, but honestly, as long not prooved i and other can rant on it (exactly as you did on other one-off things). Few µs 4V peak is no go for me, as i said, nobody knows it there are no other issues/peaks.
But when we alrady OT, do you remember rust? Yeah, check that Rigol (P1070742 copy.jpg), looks linke chinese manufacturer have now rusty-virus^^
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-inside-picture/)
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I don't own Rigol, so i couldn't compare it to my Takeway.
You don't have to, I showed you evidence in the in the video that it does not.
Takeway is by far not the perfect scope, but it is excellent for its price. I wouldn't expect ideal signal integrity and super smooth operation from a 300 Euro scope.
Why not? The Rigol does it for 239 euro.
Once again, you are wrong and have nothing to back up your claims.
But it does its job for hobby segment (the segment it is designed for) very good.
The bad things you mentioned about this Rigol PSU aren't killer issues, some buttons or colors you don't like,very subjective, who cares.If I would do a payed reviews, i would also point some light disadvantages , to make my video more credible... Else it would be too perfect.
Conveniently forgot the power on spikes did you?
Only an idiot would show that if they were paid to say good things about the unit.
That is a potentially serious issue for many people.
You are being selective of the facts that fit your case, and once again have nothing to back up your claims.
It seems you don't have tolerance to negative feedback, i know people like that. They ask for feedback, but once you criticize their work, they go berserk on you.
Bullshit.
Once again you fail to back up that claim. The evidence that I deliberately allow your comments to remain on youtube and the forum blows another one of your ridiculous claims out the water.
You still have not answered my questions.
You still have not backed up your claims.
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Talking about ignorance, i and other professionals made measurments on Tekway/Hantek and didn't found anything what you found.
For the last time, I can only review stuff as I see it in front of me.
Do you forgot that you publicly stated that I was right and people have seen this issue on certain revision numbers etc?
The way people conveniently forget public verifiable facts staggers me every day.
Sure, there was for some time big batch of products with worse response when they got hacked, but clearly not on untouched devices.
The unit you had was broken or not calibrated. I know how fucking stupid Hantek/Tekway (or who ever is the person sending replacement mainboards ..
This unit was NOT hacked, it was a direct factory replacement.
I did run the internal calibration procedure to verify that wasn't it.
What more was I supposed to do? :-// :palm:
Talking about one-off issues, well, maybe the Rigol PSU you tested have does have such one-off issue, but honestly, as long not prooved i and other can rant on it (exactly as you did on other one-off things). Few µs 4V peak is no go for me, as i said, nobody knows it there are no other issues/peaks.
And that's why I showed it!
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This unit was NOT hacked, it was a direct factory replacement.
I did run the internal calibration procedure to verify that wasn't it.
What more was I supposed to do? :-// :palm:
Maybe you are supposed to fix your factory new gear. If it's cheap just thing of ebay, you should treat it as faulty and start designing the board properly, better spec parts, complete layout overhaul. Design factory testing for it to identify faulty units, better quality control.
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It seems you don't have tolerance to negative feedback, i know people like that. They ask for feedback, but once you criticize their work, they go berserk on you.
And lets's get another thing straight - you have accused me of being paid by Rigol to give positive review.
That is NOT negative feedback, it is probably the worst accusation you can make against a reviewer.
Now, what should I do about this?
If I was smart I simply would have banned your arse a long time ago and the problem would have vanished, poof. That's what many other reviewers would have done.
I could simply ignore you as just another kook or overenthusiastic fanboy, as many reviewers do.
If I was dumb I'd spend my night (sick, away from my family) trying to explain to you on youtube and the forum, why your accusation is unfounded.
But I'm not dumb, I care about slanderous accusations, so I respond to them.
I'm even helping you, because making such unfounded accusations against the evidence may just get you into trouble one day, perhaps even sued for libel (not by me).
I have asked you to explain why, if I am paid off my Rigol, do I put potentially negative stuff in the reviews?
I have asked you to explain why, virtually all the evidence points towards my not being paid off. I find something negative to say about everything, that's just my nature.
I'll also ask, if I'm being paid off by Rigol, why I have not bothered giving a full review of the DS2000, DSA815, and DG4000 (which they gave to me for free) yet after all this time? Wouldn't that be a priority for me?
Because you refuse to answer these things, it is becoming quite evident that you are nothing but a Tekway fanboy, and you got pissed off that I gave your precious Tekway scope the thumbs down (which by the way almost every but I few people (and Charles) agree with me on). So you try to justify your position me accusing me of things, and them conveniently ignore the fact when they are presented to you that would serious hurt your accusation.
There is a psychology term for this, I'll leave it to your to look it up, because I forget, and I'm tired....
So which is more likely:
You are just p'ed off viewer who has a grude, and invented some delusional claim against which you will refuse to even think is wrong, and you dig in deeper as your claims are called out.
Or I'm secretly paid of by *insert name here*, a complete IDIOT, AND the facts just conveniently happen to go my way?
BTW, I bought this PSU with my own money, as I did the Rigol 1052E. Yes, I might be a big supporter of the 1052E (use fanboy if you want), but only because it has proven itself. And most in the industry seem to agree with me. As they did for the Tekway. How convenient for me huh?
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Confirmation bias. I see it as a personality indicator when faced a cognitive dissonance sort of situation. Bad facts don't fit in with my current facts, brain must resolve...REJECT! Good facts fit in with my current facts...ACCEPT!
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Dave, just ignore the SOB, he's not worth the time behind the keyboard.
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I can only review stuff as I see it in front of me
Sure, nobody is asking for more, all you can do is check/test what in front of you. When there are issues you might (or might not) call manufacturer (or who else provided it) to get answer or replacement (or nothing, which is as well an answer). You can as well call other customers of that particular object-of-discussion to double check, but on the other side this happens automatically (everybody who can will double check own unit for x or y issue, only lazy idiot would ignore problems).
This are your reviews, so your opinion is what counts (during and immediately after review). Any other (later) comments from others are important as well, but only when they really important (double checked item/result related and not only blah blah blah or what so ever rant). Follow-ups (from you or other qualified testers) are of course important as well.
This unit was NOT hacked, it was a direct factory replacement.
I did run the internal calibration procedure to verify that wasn't it.
What more was I supposed to do? :-// :palm:
well, Tekway/Hantek haven't provided any replacement, Charles as well. So this was all you could do. Everything else was done by other users (and this is why i said "ignorance").
That DSO hardware is using lot of techs what need to be calibrated. There is e.g. table (actually set of text files/tables) which contains factory cal information. This can NOT* be restored/run/created by enduser. The self calibration is taking values from factory cal tables, so when they already fucked up, the resulting self cal will be fucked up as well. Both manufacturer don't want to provide informations how the factory cal need be executed (and exactly necessary/where to measure), not even to large distributor (or better said his cal lab) under NDA.
What Charles got was a replacement board. All he was capable to do was to insert that board and run self-cal, nothing else. When there was something wrong in factory cal, Charles** was not able to fix it. Sure, there is a way to check the whole DSO, but honestly when asking for replacement you would expect that the manufacturer know what to do and what to provide. And that's the problem here. I can't speak for others, but almost every time i asked for replacement, i got DOA or not calibrated boards. No idea if this issue has been fixed, i can only speak from what i observed between 2009 and 2012.
I will see, when i got some spare time, i will "destroy" the factory cal and make some screenshots showing what kind of wired results the DSO is showing without or with wrong cal. Charles probably run some simply tests, which is of course all he have to do because the manufacturer have to provide working repalcement board, and after he saw waveforms jumping on the screen he released for sell that unit back as "working".
* I have reversed their procedure as far i was able to do, one thing (non linearity of frontend part) is still not reversed (but at least Hantek told me what the unknown params means, and here to look for it). As long no physical changes done to frontend, the factory cal procedure i published can be used to restore DSO. This, together with the schematics i drawn and posted was even enought to build own DSO clone based on the information provided by me. If there is someone, except the few engineers on manufacturer side, in the worlds knowing these DSO then me. I'm not a fanboy, i spend as well lot of time on other DSO in the same price range (Rigol, Siglent, Tonghui, UNI-T), not only for testing but as well reversing of hardware and software. If there was something ugly, i always asked manufacturer first to fix - when no response or taken too long - i published my "comments"/rants and possible solutions.
** i don't now Charles and what he is doing (or not), but as said above, nobody is expecting not working replacement parts. sure, DOA due transport damage, but that's all. Hanek/Tekway however, as many other chinese manufacturers as well, have problems to understand what QC means. If you wan't to know more about specific manufatcurer, check their website. If there are boken links, they you know all you need to know. Typos or chinglish are OK, that didn't means anything about quality, but broken links are no go.
Talking about one-off issues, well, maybe the Rigol PSU you tested have does have such one-off issue, but honestly, as long not prooved i and other can rant on it (exactly as you did on other one-off things). Few µs 4V peak is no go for me, as i said, nobody knows it there are no other issues/peaks.
And that's why I showed it!
and this is exactly what we all expect, if there is something, show it!
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Dave,
Thanks for I highlighting the problem with the 832, I’ve got exactly the same spike/pulses on my 832. I did some power-on test when I first got the PSU (a couple months back) and I was convinced the 2V 250ms pulse on Chan 1 only appeared without any Load, so I didn’t post anything here to cause mass hysteria (sorry). Now redoing the test, it seems pulse will occur even with a 10 ohms on the output (it does on my 832 anyway). I think used a higher value resister last time, so I’m not sure why I’m seeing a worse result now.
On Chan 2 I get the small negative pulse as well as the Spike, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t see that spike initially. I probably just didn’t run the test enough times.
I’m going contact Rigol tech support, but I’m sure you’ll get an answer quicker than me.
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You would think that people would have a little respect for Dave since he is providing the FREE venue for them to voice their opinions. They don't have to agree with everything he says but at least honor the position of captain of the ship. If you don't like Dave's content or style STOP WATCHING. If you keep watching and whining it proves something about your motivation.
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I’m going contact Rigol tech support, but I’m sure you’ll get an answer quicker than me.
Your right, likely they'd reply to a question from Dave, but they've ignored every inquiry I've sent. I consider their tech support to be worthless garbage.
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Dude, calm down...
" banned your arse a long time ago and the problem would have vanished"-no it wouldn't, banning people is big mistake, it will make more "enemies" who could probably create new account and spread rumors about you banning people....
"If I was dumb I'd spend my night (sick, away from my family) trying to explain to you on youtube and the forum, why your accusation is unfounded."-sorry,but that is what you are doing right now. I just left this discussions because it will lead it to nowhere.Too much fanboys here, and to much nerves from your side.
"I'm even helping you"-wow, that is very kindhearted, i appreciate it.
" ...I put potentially negative stuff in the reviews?"-I answered this question, to make it look genuine.
" have not bothered giving a full review of the DS2000, DSA815, and DG4000"-commercial videos aren't your top priority, you may produce lots of other videos, and from time to time make some advertisement. That what i would do, if i had a popular videoblog. This will maintain equilibrium between interesting content and obvious advertisement.
And no,i am not Teway fanboy, i just find you Tekway review very unfair towards it, because your unit was somewhat uncalibrated or broken( my unit doesn't show any errors you found).And we all know that you have good influence on the product success.(I bet hundreds of Rigol 1052 was bought after viewing your review/website )
I judge your videos like you judge the test gear.One flaw and you call it shit. (Also similar to this FG with rust, where you gave it almost thumb down, even without testing its functionality)
" p'ed off viewer"-no, i am just the viewer who watch your videos without switching off my personal opinion, unlike many of your fanboys, who give you thumbs up even without viewing the video, who give any subjective but negative comments thumbs down or mark it as spam on default.
It is clear that for many users you become an idol (like Apple), and they will swallow everything you tell them....
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I’m going contact Rigol tech support, but I’m sure you’ll get an answer quicker than me.
Your right, likely they'd reply to a question from Dave, but they've ignored every inquiry I've sent. I consider their tech support to be worthless garbage.
I’ve never tried to contact their tech support before, but I suppose that's where some of the money goes when you pay for equipment from the premium brands.
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You would think that people would have a little respect for Dave since he is providing the FREE venue for them to voice their opinions. They don't have to agree with everything he says but at least honor the position of captain of the ship.
I wouldn't even go that far. Don't "honor" me, fact check me!
I'm always open to correction and will always admit when I'm wrong, or will change my mind when presented with a sufficient case.
I think I'm pretty generous and will tolerate most feedback (you have to be in this business, otherwise you'll do a "photonic induction"), all I ask is that the feedback is not abusive, and you don't make accusations without evidence.
I'm a straight up dude, very often to my detriment :palm:
My first ever job reference read (unsurprisingly now, but was a shock to a young kid who didn't see anything wrong with just saying what he thought)
"Dave sometimes lacks tact. But this is due to enthusiasm and not rudeness"
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I would like it made crystal clear right at the start of every video review/impressions, the circumstances behind the choice of equipment to review. Is it a private purchase, loan or gift? Dave mostly does that. I suspect that he doesn't have the intention to polish a turd when he starts recording, he therefore doesn't stop to think that such disclosure is necessary.
Correct, that simply never occurs to me. It's stated on my website, but not in the individual videos.
To me that's too formal, and possibly just leads to controversy where there otherwise may not be any. i.e. when people hear that I got the unit for free, they may become immediately suspicious instead of always critically analysing every review based on it's merits.
:-//
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" banned your arse a long time ago and the problem would have vanished"-no it wouldn't, banning people is big mistake, it will make more "enemies" who could probably create new account and spread rumors about you banning people....
Nope, it's trivial to continue to ban people. It works.
" ...I put potentially negative stuff in the reviews?"-I answered this question, to make it look genuine.
" have not bothered giving a full review of the DS2000, DSA815, and DG4000"-commercial videos aren't your top priority, you may produce lots of other videos, and from time to time make some advertisement. That what i would do, if i had a popular videoblog. This will maintain equilibrium between interesting content and obvious advertisement.
By that I sense that you are still of the firm belief that Rigol are paying me to give favorable reviews?
And no,i am not Teway fanboy, i just find you Tekway review very unfair towards it, because your unit was somewhat uncalibrated or broken( my unit doesn't show any errors you found).And we all know that you have good influence on the product success.(I bet hundreds of Rigol 1052 was bought after viewing your review/website )
I judge your videos like you judge the test gear.One flaw and you call it shit. (Also similar to this FG with rust, where you gave it almost thumb down, even without testing its functionality)
You are a lost cause. I am wasting my breath.
*plonk*
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You would think that people would have a little respect for Dave since he is providing the FREE venue for them to voice their opinions. They don't have to agree with everything he says but at least honor the position of captain of the ship.
I wouldn't even go that far. Don't "honor" me, fact check me!
I didn't mean don't question Dave, I just meant you can be questioned in a less arrogant, less combative, more respectful way.
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The result of that Tekway review? - my good mate Charles likely won't loan me anything ever again. You think I did that deliberately? I called it as I saw it.
That's sad. Is he at least still your "good mate", who just decided you're a shitty advertiser :-DD, or was there a bigger argument than that?
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I don't understand what Citizen and tinhead are complaining about. I like Dave's reviews, and I find that they line up quite well to my own experiences. I pay close attention when Dave is pushing buttons to see if he does anything wrong; once in a while a solution to a problem he's mentioning is clear to me but not to him, but that's just an everyday normal difference between two folks with different skillsets.
Tinhead and Citizen are welcome to produce their own review videos; I'd gladly watch both.
I don't understand why there is hostility at all. It's pointless. No one is going to change any conspiracy theorists' minds. It simply cannot be done, and the more you try, the more you're in on the conspiracy. Ignore the haters, Dave. You're not doing this vblog for them.
*plonk*
:-DD
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Dude, calm down...
" banned your arse a long time ago and the problem would have vanished"-no it wouldn't, banning people is big mistake, it will make more "enemies" who could probably create new account and spread rumors about you banning people....
"If I was dumb I'd spend my night (sick, away from my family) trying to explain to you on youtube and the forum, why your accusation is unfounded."-sorry,but that is what you are doing right now. I just left this discussions because it will lead it to nowhere.Too much fanboys here, and to much nerves from your side.
That's why it's dumb to have such discussions.
Banning people from forum works, to get rid of the problem at that forum. Sure it would pop up on other communities, but it resolves it here.
Sure you can create new accounts, but it's the one with the longest breath. A forum mod/admin can easily push the button "BAN THAT SHIT". An individual has to make a lot of effort to create new accounts (e-mail bans, IP bans, etc.)
" ...I put potentially negative stuff in the reviews?"-I answered this question, to make it look genuine.
" have not bothered giving a full review of the DS2000, DSA815, and DG4000"-commercial videos aren't your top priority, you may produce lots of other videos, and from time to time make some advertisement. That what i would do, if i had a popular videoblog. This will maintain equilibrium between interesting content and obvious advertisement.
And no,i am not Teway fanboy, i just find you Tekway review very unfair towards it, because your unit was somewhat uncalibrated or broken( my unit doesn't show any errors you found).And we all know that you have good influence on the product success.(I bet hundreds of Rigol 1052 was bought after viewing your review/website )
I judge your videos like you judge the test gear.One flaw and you call it shit. (Also similar to this FG with rust, where you gave it almost thumb down, even without testing its functionality
Have you ever wandered around one of those computer components unboxing channels, like Linustechtips or NCIX? They get stuff sent from almost every manufacturer (the one's don't are usually are bit retarded). It's clear of any manufacturer that they get samples to show off, which in essence is a form of marketing/advertisement/sales boost. Therefor in essence you can call every review/product video an advertisement.
In some cases these engineering samples have been reviewed and issues have been pointed out that were specific to that engineering sample. That's their right to do so, I would even say their duty. If one would contact a manufacturer about a problem , and they get told to leave that bit out and listen, then that's really really bad. Historically Dave has used product video's to address certain issues and even got a direct response back. (Microchip PICKIT3 video, Fluke 87V GSM issues)
Moreover, if you look around on this forum there are strong threads going about Rigol equipment (and other) being hacked to get the software upgrades for free. I'm sure that once someone figures it out for this PSU, they will post it here. If a manufacturer bought themselves into a website/community, then they wouldn't allow threads where their products are being reverse engineered..
However, why do I watch reviews and product video's? In many cases not for the opinion of the reviewer but primarily to check out products and make my own judgements about the product.
I very often read/watch reviews of products and cross out points they make. "This harddrive is rather slow" - don't care, I only play movies from it. "The harddrive is ultrafast!" - jolly, but I only play movies from it... "This mouse is really sensitive yet very accurate" - NICE I hate a slow and inpredictable mouse .
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Back to the topic please ;)
Software crippling my ass, I hate that! Hope you didn't like the Monitoring too much, it will disappear soon!
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I am going to say for the very first time that I'm OK with the software "crippling". It is astoundingly full-featured for a power supply even without the additional features. I'd be willing to pay a bit more for the extra stuff.
Off to perform my penance with an analog PSU now...
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I just meant Dave can be questioned in a less arrogant, less combative, more respectful way.
ahh, you know what, this is not that simple. Dave likes to "explode", ask Altium. I know how hard can be to be "such person", i'm like that as well. Some call that "driven by emotion", but i would say this is not the case (hehe, not always). Sometime it is so easy to be pissed off by almost nothing, and it is hard to see own errors as well. Sometimes it is hard to imagine/accept that the person on the other side is such stupid or blind or "lost cause", really hard to continue discussion. I was working for years for big US customers, where almost everythig was driven by profit (or better said by clueless VPs with small dicks) and tons of useless PP presentations ^^. I never signed any ethics policy, and will never do it ^^. My ass belongs to me. The problem here is however that it is sometimes hard to differ if the person on the other side is really dumb or right (and i'm "blind").
Check that : Citizen said "i do have X, and don't see error Y", Dave's answer on that "You are a lost cause. I am wasting my breath". I believe Citizen, i know that DSO good and can confirm what he saw/measured, i believe Dave as well - i know/can confirm how these DSO "perfoms" when they not ok (on hardware or/and factory cal side). Both are right, but who was here arrogant? Dave will probably say "but i know what i saw", right he knows, and i know it as well. But exact the same case for Citizen. Let's continue ...
Dave said "fact check me! I'm always open to correction" - so far everything ok - " and will always admit when I'm wrong". And that's the problem, Citizen said "Dave you wrong" but Dave still answering "You are a lost cause. I am wasting my breath". Now one can ask why? The answer is simple, check exactly what Dave said "when I'm wrong" !! But he was not, he said about Tekway DSO exactly what he observed. And Citizen what he observed. And i can confirm both observation!!.
So where is the problem again? Right, beeing arrogant and ignoring other ppl observation. And this is not Dave only, Citizen as well haven't accepted what Dave observer. And i did call Dave as well xxx without reading at least twice what he exactly said. Such situation might cause some ppl to think that Dave was paid to say X or Y (now let's ignore the fact that he runs video blog and is being paid therefore, because that didn't means anything. An "Expert witness" is being paid by Court as well and nobody - except the defendant hehe - have problmes to accept this situation).
So what no? Nothing, let's continue watchig Dave's rants, ehm i mean reviews :) I don't expect from Dave videos like these from w2aew (always pleasure to watch them), Dave style is completely different. Even if he sometimes wrong (and f* arrogant, hehe), they are at least authentic (something which is hard to find in the PP/VPs small dicks driven world) and not that bad from informational/technical point of view. Such combination is unique.
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Software crippling my ass, I hate that!
i hate to pay too much, crippling means cost reducing (not always, but for sure when we talk about Rigol stuff) and lower price for us!
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:palm:Daves fanatics in action:)
Just suddenly got 4 Thumbs downs on each of my FPGA tutorial videos. Told you, for most fans here Dave is like an Idol ( a god, an Iphone etc) they will be aggressive to anyone who criticize or questions Idols credibility. I wonder what will happen if Dave will say:"Find this Citizen in real world". I would probably be waked up in the night by crazy mob with torches:)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pmWtjJSNCz4/SK14BzRmJnI/AAAAAAAAAFo/wPVTmsjE8dY/s400/800px-simpsons_angry_mob.png)
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How about you all just piss off and discuss the PSU? |O
Told you, for most fans here Dave is like an Idol
Careful how you define "here". The mob went after you on YouTube because YouTube is YouTube. Seriously... screw YouTube... But I don't see a mob here.
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Software crippling my ass, I hate that!
i hate to pay too much, crippling means cost reducing (not always, but for sure when we talk about Rigol stuff) and lower price for us!
But it's a big risk for Rigol to take.
Generally, if you soft cripple your product, you can bet someone will come along and un-cripple it for you.
Look at what happened with IDE RAID controllers in the early days, Promise Technology crippled certain devices simply with software. A hack arrived to un-cripple it. In the end, Promise put the silicon through several redesigns to try and stop the hack.
Bad idea Rigol, really bad idea.
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Generally, if you soft cripple your product, you can bet someone will come along and un-cripple it for you.
Yes, despite saying before that I'm OK with the software options........ you can bet the first thing I'd try to do with this PSU is to defeat them. Hey, I bought the hardware! Your move, Rigol. :box:
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Generally, if you soft cripple your product, you can bet someone will come along and un-cripple it for you.
Yes, despite saying before that I'm OK with the software options........ you can bet the first thing I'd try to do with this PSU is to defeat them. Hey, I bought the hardware! Your move, Rigol. :box:
The funny thing here is that a higher percentage the target customers will be capable of working out all the hacks, as opposed to, let's say, smartphone customers.
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Your move, Rigol. :box:
No, your move, c4757p. She hasn't been hacked yet. :-/O
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Just getting warmed up :P
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Dave,
I think it is a fair question to ask oneself whether you are getting something in return from the manufacturer for reviewing their stuff.
It would help a lot if you could write a short note saying that you have no business relationship with Rigol whatsoever, and if you have any please describe the terms.
I am sure Citizen was not the only one wondering this, so you should have taken his questioning as an opportunity to clarify things with him and with all the rest of the audience who are wondering the same.
I am a bit disappointed you tried to intimidate Citizen with your tone BTW.
In my case I did feel a bit suspicious because I saw you dismissing USB scopes(without even asking what problem where they trying to solve) Although you got my trust back when you posted your video on how to buy a 20Mhz scope on EBAY.
I am totally OK if you get paid by some manufacturer but please say it clearly if that happens.
My 2 cents and thanks for the great videos!
Cheers!
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Generally, if you soft cripple your product, you can bet someone will come along and un-cripple it for you.
Yes, despite saying before that I'm OK with the software options........ you can bet the first thing I'd try to do with this PSU is to defeat them. Hey, I bought the hardware! Your move, Rigol. :box:
Totally agreed. I don't like it that the hardware is there for that extra digit, but basically they are like:
if (softwareOption)
{
displayValue = Math.Round(value, 3);
}
else
{
displayValue = Math.Round(value, 2);
}
That is worth 90$?!
In my mind 2 digits after the comma is already precision. Most bench supplies only do 1 digit on V and maybe 2 on A, especially if they can deliver 90W of power.
In that essence it would also be very fascinating to see if there are any (open hardware) designs available for a (modular) isolated digital power supply section. Then it would just be a matter of interconnecting all the digital supplies to one control PCB that contains a few button and a graphic LCD from something like iTead (only costs 30$ or something). Ah well, drifting out of course.. :=\
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Hmm. Sad this thread turned into a flame war.
The nice thing about a video (in HD with good clear sound no less) is that we can follow along, we can watch every button press and observe every action and response. We can judge quite well if what we are seeing is real or faked.
I watched this video with considerable enjoyment, and never once doubted that what I was seeing was the real power supply, presented as it is. It looks like a nice supply with one or two user interface niggles and a question mark regarding the power on spikes. You have to judge whether you could live with those. But weighed against that is the very economical price. You pays your money and you takes your choice, as they say.
So anyway, nice review and nice supply.
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The software to take advantage of the one extra digit might worth pennies, but the hardware to create it might cost 90 $.
Alexander.
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I don't like the knob or keypad either myself.
However, this supply for this price seems like a winner to me.
I have been looking at getting a new supply here soon and I really liked the TTi that Orbiter posted on Youtube and here on the forums
but it looks like I will probably end up with one of these.
I can live with the annoying things like the jog dial and the keypad because of the featureset for the price.
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The software to take advantage of the one extra digit might worth pennies, but the hardware to create it might cost 90 $.
Most people will buy the basic model without any software options, I'd guess. So I assume it's more like +$0.5 for the hardware if there's a difference at all. I doubt it. After a tear-down we'll see if there's any "special" hardware or if just the MCU's internal ADC and DAC are used. In the video I saw that the voltage displayed differed a little bit from the selected value. The extra digit doesn't seem to be really existing for the outpt control, more like just for the output measurement and the output control might be slightly better the the basic resolution. And I wouldn't be suprised if the A model is exactly the same hardware but just with all software featues enabled and the colorful display (the 832 got also a color display, but just not used by the firmware besides the color scheme setting).
The only software option I would pay for is the IP network interface, since it might involve a license fee (assuming Rigol bought/licensed the IP stack).
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Is it just me, or would it have been nice if the third rail was 0-6V/3A ?
The extra volt would come in handy in many situations, if for instance you wish to test a digital rail at a slightly higher than normal voltage.
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The software to take advantage of the one extra digit might worth pennies, but the hardware to create it might cost 90 $.
Alexander.
I seriously doubt that. You don't need any kind of exotic hardware for 4 digits of precision with few readings per second sample rate that you need for this application. You can even get (essentially low-end) MCUs with integrated ADC that is total overkill for this for like $3 in single quantities. Having this as an software option (or essentially even as hardware option) is only about "does customer need that extra digit so much he is willing to pay 90$ for it?".
There is separate question of calibration, where there certainly could be significant price difference and I assume that is the reason why you get additional digit of precision and not accuracy (that would require recal or rigol to factory calibrate all units as if they have this option, which I doubt they do).
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This power supply looks like a nice buy, from Dave's first impressions. Is it 100% sure it is a good power supply without further detailed testing? No. Did Dave take payment from Rigol? Not directly, but getting free gear could be considered some form or payment but only if Dave supplied a service requested by Rigol. He says he did not and for me that is enough. If people think Dave is lying, say so and leave because that is what you are implying by going on about this.
I like Dave's style, he gives his opinion in this bland politically correct tipy-toe world. Do I agree with every one of Dave's opinions? No. When I disagree with him publicly I don't get jumped on. I expect if I accuse him of lying or taking seeking bribes to promote products then I expect him to get in my face. Does Dave make mistakes or wrong assumptions? Sure, sometimes, who doesn't?
With this review and Dave's general reputation I would believe I would be buying what he says. If not, IT WASN'T A FULL REVIEW! It is always a crap shoot.
Anyway, nice first impressions video Dave.
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Any chance of a teardown?
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"Show me the evidence where the Rigol has the same signal integrity issues as that Tekway I tested."
I don't own Rigol, so i couldn't compare it to my Takeway. Takeway is by far not the perfect scope, but it is excellent for its price. I wouldn't expect ideal signal integrity and super smooth operation from a 300 Euro scope. But it does its job for hobby segment (the segment it is designed for) very good.
The bad things you mentioned about this Rigol PSU aren't killer issues, some buttons or colors you don't like,very subjective, who cares.If I would do a payed reviews, i would also point some light disadvantages , to make my video more credible... Else it would be too perfect.
It seems you don't have tolerance to negative feedback, i know people like that. They ask for feedback, but once you criticize their work, they go berserk on you.
I actually thought Dave was a bit too picky about the Rigol PSU - complaining about the rotary knob and numerical buttons. But he comes across as a bit of a nerdy perfectionist in his videos, and I think it's part of his charm.
It's a bit underhanded to accuse him of being a paid shill when you have nothing to support it. If I may be so bold, you said in this thread you don't have the funds to buy one of these Rigol scopes, and you have the Tekway. My assumption is that you are probably young and just starting out and a bit irritated that Dave slammed the product you bought - and are justifying your purchase with "Well, Dave is just a paid shill anyway". But that is quite a serious accusation considering it's the core of his product that you're slandering.
I don't see what there is to get upset about... millions of people buy scopes other than the Tekway (and other than the Rigol) - they are all people who thought something else was better. What's wrong with someone not seeing things your way? It can be that they just have a different opinion. They could even be right - but whether you think so or not, it doesn't mean they must be giving paid reviews.
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I actually thought Dave was a bit too picky about the Rigol PSU - complaining about the rotary knob and numerical buttons. But he comes across as a bit of a nerdy perfectionist in his videos, and I think it's part of his charm.
Finally! Somebody gets it!
Dave points out things he likes and things he doesn't like, and it's up to the viewer to decide whether or not they care. Personally, I don't give a damn about the buttons - it's a bit weird, but I could get used to it. And still, I like being made aware of it before I consider purchasing the item.
I'd be more offended if he tried to get in my head and figure out what I want to hear about. He mentions every strong and weak point he can see and you can choose which are important. Yes, it often comes across like whinging, but so what?
Anybody who thinks he's a shill is retarded. Dave would be a complete idiot to call the product designers wankers over things like the dial display mode if he were going to be paid for a positive review. Yes, a good shill would complain about a few minor things too. But please, show me a company that would pay somebody to talk shit about their design goals. And that startup pulse could very well be a show-stopper for many people, and especially for the people who would consider buying a large number of them. (I'm still on the fence - I might personally consider it one, actually.)
And as for whether he was being a bit of an asshole - he was. And I support it. Woe betide the dickhead who calls me a shill! Sometimes assholism is called for.
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I am not much into speculating specially when we can ask Dave directly about what sort of relationship does he have with Rigol, and in general with the companies he reviews stuff for.
Sure we all have our own opinion, but how about we wait for Dave to reply and let us know what is going on?
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The numbers around the jog wheel seems awkward to me. It's a pity they didn't use a more conventional keypad layout and a jog wheel (a smaller knob would be ok) off to the side.
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I don't like deliberate crippling (such as leaving out the extra digit on the display), but software upgradability is generally a good thing, if it lowers the base price. Especially in my country, as our greedy government charges a ridiculously high import duty; software is exempt though, so if I software-upgrade a product after importing it, I don't pay duties on the extra amount that would otherwise be taxed if it was part of the product price or if it was a physical module that had to be imported (and let's not forget the extra shipping costs in that case).
This PSU seems really nice and usable, why the heck couldn't they just have done a more conventional numberpad layout?
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For a moment I thought Dave had a guest presenter for this video. You sound a bit crook mate! ???
Sagan and I have a bad virus, of the long lasting 5+ day kind apparently, it's "going around" :(
Yeah looked a bit dehydrated and not wearing your usual form fitting shirt made you look a bit gaunt.
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Having been a reader of Eevblog for a while, this post has finally spurred me on to register.
I am stunned and amazed by the comments of those like Citizen and tinhead who use the forum, watch the videos then come out with unsupported statements accusing Dave of commercial bias and implying dishonesty on his part.
I have watched many of Dave's product reviews and have purchased 3 pieces of test equipment based on them, and have found then to be pretty much as reviewed.
Dave, I'm afraid some of the comments in this thread are just a reflection of the sad world we live in and my advice is ignore them. As to those who whine and complain about free equipment reviews which are not to their taste, don't watch them!!
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Well... It could be worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/RJUiCH6.jpg)
Alexander.
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Well... It could be worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/RJUiCH6.jpg)
Alexander.
That is FUNNY! :-DD
- something for both the early and the late adopters, or maybe the innovators and the laggards :)
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I hear the touch tone option is extra.
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Dave,
I think it is a fair question to ask oneself whether you are getting something in return from the manufacturer for reviewing their stuff.
It would help a lot if you could write a short note saying that you have no business relationship with Rigol whatsoever, and if you have any please describe the terms.
I am sure Citizen was not the only one wondering this, so you should have taken his questioning as an opportunity to clarify things with him and with all the rest of the audience who are wondering the same.
I am a bit disappointed you tried to intimidate Citizen with your tone BTW.
In my case I did feel a bit suspicious because I saw you dismissing USB scopes(without even asking what problem where they trying to solve) Although you got my trust back when you posted your video on how to buy a 20Mhz scope on EBAY.
I am totally OK if you get paid by some manufacturer but please say it clearly if that happens.
For the last time:
I am not paid by Rigol (or anyone else) to give positive reviews. And I never have been.
I have actively turned down every request for such "paid reviews".
No manufacturer gets to see or comment on the video before I post it, even though they have asked. Those are my terms, and some companies have not dealt with me because of those terms.
Yes, some manufacturers advertise on my website. Rigol do, through their advertising broker. It is likely Rigol don't even know they are advertising on my website, they just pay the brokers to saturate the market, that's how the advertising business works. I have never spoken to anyone at Rigol about advertising. In fact I rarely speak to Rigol at all about anything. They are one of the the least pro-active of the companies I deal with.
Yes, I get to keep some of the gear. If you want to think that's getting "paid" then that's your choice. The truth is manufacturers give away this stuff all the time to reviewers, it is chicken feed for them. I often need to keep this stuff so I can use them in review comparisons etc.
This is all spelled out here:
http://www.eevblog.com/about/ (http://www.eevblog.com/about/)
In the case of the Rigol 832, I bought it with my own money, through my local distributor Emona.
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I appreciate the detailed reviews and any other bits of info that come out re the equipment. I look at lots of info and informative reviews help a lot. Every user has their particular likes & dislikes, but generally the review provide lots of info to decide if whatever it is would be useful or a lemon.
I have a DP832 { along with a bunch of other Rigol equipment } and am pretty happy with it. It's a good replacement for some of my older less capable power supplies. Weird button layout, but you get used to it. Better than no buttons / functions which is what I was replacing. At $400 it's a good piece of gear for me and like all things you need to learn & know it's weak & strong points.
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Does it act as a DCV multimeter when the channels are off?
It does not unfortunately, it will always read 0 volts. And that's the only negative aspect of the power supply from my personal opinion.
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Well... It could be worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/RJUiCH6.jpg)
Alexander.
That is FUNNY! :-DD
- something for both the early and the late adopters, or maybe the innovators and the laggards :)
this brings back bad memories for me!
about 20 years ago I was working as a tech in a country hospital ( about 250 beds at the time).
A black box with a rotary phone dial arrived in the workshop with a ticket to safety test it. Having never seen it before during our routine checks we asked what it was.
Answer - Electroconvulsive therapy machine !! from memory it had a 50v ac output - we didn't actually look too much as it sailed towards the bin.
Operation was simple paste electrodes on the head , insert mouthguard dial 1 - for slightly fired brain 0 for max.
terrifying how medico's experiment
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I am not much into speculating specially when we can ask Dave directly about what sort of relationship does he have with Rigol, and in general with the companies he reviews stuff for.
Sure we all have our own opinion, but how about we wait for Dave to reply and let us know what is going on?
Many of the manufacturers simply don't care much about my blog (with so many advertising and promo channels around the world, the EEVblog is not as big as you'd think), and Rigol is one of them. About the only interaction has been to send me some stuff for review, eventually. They aren't exactly Jonny on the spot with getting me stuff.
As I said, I rarely speak to Rigol at all, and when I do it's Chris Armstrong from the US branch.
You can ask him yourself and see if the accusations are true: http://twitter.com/RigolTechUSA (http://twitter.com/RigolTechUSA)
I repeat, I do not get paid for reviews. And in fact I have so far NOT formally reviewed a single bit of Rigol gear they have sent me (DS2000, DS815, DG4000), I have only done teardowns of them or used them in various videos, or did an unboxing etc.
The 832 PSU is mine, I bought it, it had nothing to do with Rigol. Same for the 1052E
This is the last you will hear from me on this issue, because I'm sick of repeating myself.
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For the last time:
Talk about wishful thinking! ;D This topic will come up again, and again, and again as long as you are doing these videos :)
To those asking the question... it's a bit feather ruffling when people say "it's about time Dave address this.." and those kind of comments, because it has never been a secret. When I first discovered EEVBlog, I consumed tons of Dave's videos... and I found myself wondering the same thing after a few. But he spells it right out on his website, and he often says it in the forums, and he often says it even in his videos. So when people ask the question, it's not that Dave hasn't been clear on it, but rather the person asking the question has failed to inform themselves on the subject from the resources available.
Not that there is anything wrong with that - long time members will know more of the ins and outs than a newbie, but the question should always be asked respectfully and with the presumption that no funny business is going on.
Frankly, one would be a fool to discount any of Dave's videos, because the video record shows he has no problem calling it like he sees it.
Lots of people love to take shots at someone who is doing well, and Dave is no exception. People also tend to get their panties in a twist when someone criticizes something they've bought - that's just human nature. And technical people and the young often tend to exhibit those traits more than others. But the people jumping on Dave's case about this should stop and consider for a moment that Dave supports a wife and kid with this business - and before taking a shot at the reputation that built the business, it would be the decent and respectful (and mature) thing to do to ask rather than to accuse.
Citizen, you haven't bothered to acknowledge your mistake to Dave or to anyone else... and frankly dude, that is pretty shit. And as for the comment about Dave worship, look back at the comments when he made his April 1st video about how he was getting sponsored by a big company and they would be moderating is reviews, etc. The man got skewered by a ton of people before they realized it was a hoax.
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Good job Dave! Informative and entertaining at the same time, as usual. Don't let the peanut gallery get you down.
Anybody who has watched your 500+ videos over the years should know by now not to question your integrity.
You have a deserved following and a bright future in this business.
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Yes I think it's stupid and annoying to keep accusing Dave of taking money for reviews and yes I think Dave can be a bit annoying sometimes himself, but we watch his videos to get his opinion so I guess his job is to be opinionated. As long as he doesn't get a big head over all he attention he gets then that's fine.
ANYWAY... If I had a nice power supply like that I would set up groups and sequences in 32 ticks at musically useful intervals and send the to a VCO to make music :)
Connect it to a 1V/oct synth or drum machine and you have a makeshift step sequencer because that's pretty much what it is.
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Jesus Christ people, Dave likes the Rigol and said some nice things about it. So what? Now he's sold out and in the pay of big $$$ corporations, driving a Cadillac fuelled with children's tears, smoking giant rain-forest cigars lit with $1000 bills individually hand plated with gold by starved Africans addicted to his evil GM baby milk?
Illegitimi non carborundum.
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Just to be a contrarian.... I think the people giving Dave hell are pretty much done now... and now we're all ganging up on them...
How about we all go back to talking about the PSU itself?
Dave.... have you heard anything about the release date for the Hello Kitty model?
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Just to be a contrarian.... I think the people giving Dave hell are pretty much done now... and now we're all ganging up on them...
How about we all go back to talking about the PSU itself?
Dave.... have you heard anything about the release date for the Hello Kitty model?
Time zones.
They'll be back!
So as for the PSU itself...has anyone confirmed that the hardware is identical? Is the screen identical too? Is the only difference firmware???
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Hey Dave,
I'm so glad to hear that! Thanks for clarifying and for your great reviews! :)
:-+ :-+
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So as for the PSU itself...has anyone confirmed that the hardware is identical? Is the screen identical too? Is the only difference firmware???
From what I gather in another thread, yes, identical hardware.
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Dave.... have you heard anything about the release date for the Hello Kitty model?
Demand is so high, Rigol are rushing it through production now.
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Dave.... have you heard anything about the release date for the Hello Kitty model?
Demand is so high, Rigol are rushing it through production now.
Got mine today.... :-DD
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I'm not in the market for a programmable power supply, but based on this review I would probably favor this unit instead of the one I currently use sometimes at work (a similarly priced BK Precision unit). While the numerical entry is a bit unusual (I'd prefer a standard 10-key layout, like a calculator), I think Rigol is just trying to be a little different or try new things. Sometimes such ideas improve upon the status quo, and sometimes they don't.
On the subject of Dave being unbiased, which has now thoroughly been beaten to death (sorry), I wanted to add my two cents because I happen to have had a very relevant experience recently which I think may be of interest to share here.
A few months ago, I started needing to use digital storage oscilloscopes at work. My experience to that point was only with analog scopes. I did some research, and found Dave's reviews of various scopes (Agilent, Rigol, etc) as well as numerous other sources. I kept Dave's generally favorable and enthusiastic videos regarding Rigol 1052 and 2000 series in the back of my mind. A few weeks ago, I decided it was time to add a DSO to my home lab, and I started looking seriously to purchase. I demoed/tested similarly priced BK Precision, Tektronix, and Rigol models. Finally I decided on the Rigol DS-2102, based on my personal demo of it as well as the qualities revealed by Dave (and others) in online reviews. I personally felt that Dave had provided me with the most useful information and felt that he was responsible to a large degree for my knowledge of Rigol as a manufacturer, and my decision to even demo their unit.
I asked Dave directly if there was a way I could purchase the unit through his site or network in such a way he would receive commission. He replied:
I'm afraid not. Thanks for thinking of me though.
I arranged with my local dealer to purchase the scope, who recommended I work with Rigol US directly. While making the purchase, I asked the Rigol sales rep, Steve Barfield, if I could contribute something to Dave because I felt he informed my decision and deserved credit. I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong at Rigol, whom I don't think would object to my quoting part of here:
...he actually resists direct payments in order to keep his objectivity, but he does get ad revenue from his website.
It's true that Rigol's agency puts ads on Dave's site, but I don't think that causes or is due to any bias. If you recall, Dave was not afraid to show the 1052 to 1101 bandwidth hack. (Rigol US even has a link to that video on the product page!) In "DS2000 Playing Around" he wasn't afraid to throw out a few comments about weird firmware issues. I believe Rigol is a smart company. They have (so far to my knowledge) admitted mistakes, issued fixes on a timely basis, and probably values Dave's objectivity as much as we, his audience, do.
If their products sucked, and Dave called them out on it, they probably would not advertise on his site. That's just business.
I remain confident that if Dave opened up a Rigol product that reeked of oversight, bad design, or dangerous flaws, he'd have a field day showing them in all their glory and ask the manufacturer to respond.
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The sad part is that if Hello Kitty licensing was free they'd probably have an entire product line based on it.
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The sad part is that if Hello Kitty licensing was free they'd probably have an entire product line based on it.
if it gets girls into STEM fields by enticing them early on, I'd be all for it >:D
plus, it'd peeve off all the serious people.
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I remain confident that if Dave opened up a Rigol product that reeked of oversight, bad design, or dangerous flaws, he'd have a field day showing them in all their glory and ask the manufacturer to respond.
That's the thing, I actually LOVE doing that, and I think it's one of the major reasons my channel is popular despite all my flaws.
In fact it's very difficult for me to be biased or to deliberately try to deceive or hide things, even if I wanted to. I have 80,000+ subscribers of the best and brightest in the industry fact checking everything I do, and many have used the product more extensively than I have.
It's rare that I upload a video and don't get some mistake or oversight pointed out to me in the first hour.
With teardowns for example I can't hide a thing because it's all there in glorious HD for all to see.
As for the reviews, they are detailed hour long epics. But in theory if I found something bad I could edit that out and pretend I didn't see it, but I continue to prove time and time again that if it happens, I put it in the video. And as I said, I LOVE doing that. Test equipment is something I've always loved, and I want better test gear for myself and the industry, and I enjoy the fact that I possibly have some influence (however small) on manufacturers into giving us all better gear.
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if it gets girls into STEM fields by enticing them early on, I'd be all for it >:D
plus, it'd peeve off all the serious people.
Someone at Rigol simply HAS to do this just for kicks at their next trade show!
Heck, it could even be a joke promotional thing - "Some people don't like the look of our new PSU. Well, it could be worse!"
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Does it act as a DCV multimeter when the channels are off?
It does not unfortunately, it will always read 0 volts. And that's the only negative aspect of the power supply from my personal opinion.
Actually it should't be hard to design a dual supply in a way that allowed one channel to be used as a dummy load with metering, so you could use it for DC-DC converter efficiency measurement - that would be an extremely useful feature.
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Just saw the video. Not impressed with the Rigol PSU. I fall into the camp of those who think the front panel display and control pad stinks. The update speed on the output voltage indication is what I would expect of a $50 piece of junk. What were Rigol thinking ?
Sorry, in my book a total fail.
I recently purchased three GWInstek PSP-603 programmable power supplies. They may not have the spec of the Rigol but at GBP80 ($120) each they were great value. I can use them independently in a neat vertical stack or as separate units around the lab. Up to 60V at 3.5A output, so pretty versatile. The lower voltage PSP-405 was also available. That had greater voltage resolution. Mine were Brand New Old boxed Stock from a company that was being shut down and selling off its inventory. The PSP-xxx series have a more friendly user interface and a nice large display. The KISS principal has been applied well.
http://www.gwinstek.com/en/product/productdetail.aspx?pid=38&mid=75&id=164 (http://www.gwinstek.com/en/product/productdetail.aspx?pid=38&mid=75&id=164)
http://uk.farnell.com/gw-instek/psp-603/psu-programmable-60v-3-5a/dp/4911751?Ntt=psp-603 (http://uk.farnell.com/gw-instek/psp-603/psu-programmable-60v-3-5a/dp/4911751?Ntt=psp-603)
And finally, what's with Rigol trying to make their kit look like it came off the Starship Enterprise ? Don't get me wrong, I am a Trekkie, but I need a power supply that is quick and easy to use. I thought the days of trying to impress with flashy displays and lit buttons died in the 1980's ? I remember Alan Sugar (AMSTRAD) having lots of flashy lights put on his AV equipment to sell it to those who were impressed by 'technology' Basically bragging rights but the kit was still a pile of cheap junk behind the flashy front panel.
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should be great to see a comparison between this power supply and a hameg (7042-5) one...
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I recently purchased three GWInstek PSP-603 programmable power supplies.
I looks quite nice! Any inside photos?
Alexander.
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That is FUNNY! :-DD
- something for both the early and the late adopters, or maybe the innovators and the laggards :)
... and the rotary encoder would be much more usable >:D
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GWInstek PSP-603 programmable power supplies.
Does look like a nice supply. However, kinda an apples to oranges comparison as the GW is a switcher.
Still very useful though, with up to 10 amps I might have to have one myself.
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Just saw the video. Not impressed. I fall into the camp of those who think the front panel display and control pad stinks. The update speed on the output voltage indication is what I would expect of a $50 piece of junk. What were Rigol thinking ?
Sorry, in my book a total fail.
I recently purchased three GWInstek PSP-603 programmable power supplies. They may not have the spec of the Rigol but at GBP80 ($120) each they were great value. I can use them independently in a neat vertical stack or as separate units around the lab. Up to 60V at 3.5A output, so pretty versatile. The lower voltage PSP-405 was also available. That had greater voltage resolution. Mine were Brand New Old boxed Stock from a company that was being shut down and selling off its inventory. The PSP-xxx series have a more friendly user interface and a nice large display. The KISS principal has been applied well.
http://www.gwinstek.com/en/product/productdetail.aspx?pid=38&mid=75&id=164 (http://www.gwinstek.com/en/product/productdetail.aspx?pid=38&mid=75&id=164)
http://uk.farnell.com/gw-instek/psp-603/psu-programmable-60v-3-5a/dp/4911751?Ntt=psp-603 (http://uk.farnell.com/gw-instek/psp-603/psu-programmable-60v-3-5a/dp/4911751?Ntt=psp-603)
And finally, what's with Rigol trying to make their kit look like it came off the Starship Enterprise ? Don't get me wrong, I am a Trekkie, but I need a power supply that is quick and easy to use. I thought the days of trying to impress with flashy displays and lit buttons died in the 1980's ? I remember Alan Sugar (AMSTRAD) having lots of flashy lights put on his AV equipment to sell it to those who were impressed by 'technology' Basically bragging rights but the kit was still a pile of cheap junk behind the flashy front panel.
I’m confused, the normal retail price of three PSP-603’s isn’t in the same range as a single DP832, and if someone doesn’t like PSU having displays, then they’ll have three rather than one with three PSP-603‘s. But as with the Amstrad systems of the 80s, you are always going to get better quality if you decided to pay for a system built from reasonably good separates, rather than an all-in-one system. But I don’t think Rigol is quite as bad as Amstrad yet.
And O.K the PSP-603 is a nice looking PSU, but with the DP832 if you squint your eyes whilst standing on one leg, it really doesn’t look as bad it does in the photo’s. And as Dave has shown in his video, Rigol realised that some people wont like the looks of the thing, so they designed it so you can stand in on its back and hide it out of sight under your desk/workbench.
The usability of my PD832 is worse than Dave’s because I currently have an older version of the firmware that defaults to adjusting 10 units rather the 10 millivolt/milliamp units when the knob is turned, so maybe other aspects of the usability will improve with time, but apart of the default units I don’t think it's really that bad. For the same price I’m not really sure, which other triple output PSU is actually better.
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Just one hint from my side to people currently in the market for a new PSU: don't overlook the Siglent SPD3303 series. There are some pros as well as some cons comparing it to the Rigol, chances are you'll like it better.
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Just one hint from my side to people currently in the market for a new PSU: don't overlook the Siglent SPD3303 series. There are some pros as well as some cons comparing it to the Rigol, chances are you'll like it better.
I refuse to even consider an electronics product, where you have to register just to download the user manual. They couldn't even bother to tell on their homepage whether it has linear or switching regulators.
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I refuse to even consider an electronics product, where you have to register just to download the user manual. They couldn't even bother to tell on their homepage whether it has linear or switching regulators.
Go to www.siglent.com (http://www.siglent.com), choose "English", then "Service", "Download Center" and "User Manual". You don't have to register to download anything from there, only when you try to do so from the product page. Stupid, I know.
It's linear, powered by quite beefy toroidal transformer.
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I remain confident that if Dave opened up a Rigol product that reeked of oversight, bad design, or dangerous flaws, he'd have a field day showing them in all their glory and ask the manufacturer to respond.
Of course he would. If he can spend 10 minutes discussing a little rust on an instrument casing, there's no way in hell he's going to let a little rust go unnoticed. And yes, he would and he has pointed out flaws. From the top of my head:
- Handheld multimeter exploding in his hand. (Result: The manufacturer changed the design.)
- Fluke multimeter 87 multimeter affected by GSM. (Result: Firmware update fixing the problem and free USB adapter for anyone affected.)
- PICKit 3. (Result: Reponse video about Mr Head.)
- That Korad PSU he managed to blow. (Result: Hmm, did Trio Smartcal stop carrying the item?)
Anything I've missed?
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...
...
- That Korad PSU he managed to blow. (Result: Hmm, did Trio Smartcal stop carrying the item?)
Anything I've missed?
Didn't they review the design and send new PCBs to Trio Smartcal? I thought that I saw Charles welding something with it.
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Arbitrary option to the function gen of the Agillent scope.
Alexander.
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Wow, $120 each?? :-+ That's a great price. They are ~ $300 +/- $50 each depending on seller, in the USA. If anyone in the EU still wants a PSU that can't be beat for a programmable linear PSU.
Just saw the video. Not impressed. I fall into the camp of those who think the front panel display and control pad stinks. The update speed on the output voltage indication is what I would expect of a $50 piece of junk. What were Rigol thinking ?
Sorry, in my book a total fail.
I recently purchased three GWInstek PSP-603 programmable power supplies. They may not have the spec of the Rigol but at GBP80 ($120) each they were great value. ..
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One thing I noticed: Don't most supplies have the Black (Negative) connector on the left and the Red (Positive) connector on the right?
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One thing I noticed: Don't most supplies have the Black (Negative) connector on the left and the Red (Positive) connector on the right?
Yeah I noticed that one too.
That said my ITT/Metrix AX322 also has the positive terminals to the left of the negative.
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Maybe a political stance? :D
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/urgent_mission.png)
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Slightly of topic, speaking of standards :palm:
RED right of "black" was Japanese way, not sure this is the world standard now, IEC. Also Japanese negative terminals are white, earth ground is black, vs green. The color scheme is different from the USA.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html)
(http://www.kikusui.co.jp/catalog/img/photo/getimage2.php?path=PAN-A_Series_2.jpg)
TTI supplies are one of the few stil made in the UK
(http://www.tti-test.com/images1/product-jpgs/web-cpxnew.jpg)
Gossen Metrawatt PSU actually made in Germany, use blue as negative terminals:
(http://www.conrad.com/medias/global/ce/1000_1999/1000/1010/1013/101379_LB_00_FB.EPS_250.jpg)
RED left of black was HPs and USA way:
(http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/images/products/HP_6228B.JPG)
Very confusing if you start thinking about it :scared:
One thing I noticed: Don't most supplies have the Black (Negative) connector on the left and the Red (Positive) connector on the right?
Yeah I noticed that one too.
That said my ITT/Metrix AX322 also has the positive terminals to the left of the negative.
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Nice review as always. Strange some folks really took offense at some comments, I guess PSU is a popular item.
I think the Rigol PSU interface is unique and well designed, and between 3 similar linear programmable supplies in this price range, $400: Rigol, Atten and Siglent, Rigol is a better bet long term; support and firmware updates and likely hardware build quality; so its bang for buck except for the 2V switch on issue; it could be fixable via firmware. The rotary dial layout is strange, but not a deal breaker.
That said, they are fairly close to each other with the new Siglent looking fairly competitive, and a lot simpler in layout.
(http://www.siglent.com/uploadfiles/en/images/2013/5/20130510115238.jpg)
The Atten is sold as Tenma house brand in the USA:
(http://www.mcmelectronics.com/content/productimages/s4/72-8795.jpg)
The interface has to be spotless because its all the operator has to go on and if its not idiot proof, the operator can make errors setting one or all the supplies; the Atten glitches doesn't build confidence that the output will behave later on, I'd still be checking it manually with a DMM. The risk of blowing an expensive IC or test board is one reason I still prefer, for lab work, all manual switches and no programmability.
If I were to buy a programmable supply I'd prefer a continuous output monitor like Shariar showed in the more costly Rigol model, so I can track issues. Getting a graph over time, as the 34461a DMM shows, is great timesaver particularly if a glitch occurs beyond the capacity of the PSU to regulate:
Rigol DP1116A and DP1308A Programmable Power Supply Review (Part 2/6) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1aiRNfdR8Q#ws)
That said, I still prefer 3 single output supplies for redundancy and reliability; if one output dies, I still have the other two whereas a 3 in 1, the whole supply is taken out for repair should one supply go even if the other 2 are working, or worse a single output failure could take out all outputs.
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Slightly of topic, speaking of standards :palm:
the best is Xantrex/Sorensen/Ametek, no need to think what is on right on left ^^
(http://www.sorensen.com/products/XT/pix/Sample_Main_s1.jpg)
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Slightly of topic, speaking of standards :palm:
the best is Xantrex/Sorensen/Ametek, no need to think what is on right on left ^^
(http://www.sorensen.com/products/XT/pix/Sample_Main_s1.jpg)
When I was looking in ebay, I did notice that the "standard" by far is Red on top, Black on the bottom.
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The risk of blowing an expensive IC or test board is one reason I still prefer, for lab work, all manual switches and no programmability.
I still prefer 3 single output supplies for redundancy and reliability; if one output dies, I still have the other two whereas a 3 in 1, the whole supply is taken out for repair should one supply go even if the other 2 are working, or worse a single output failure could take out all outputs.
+1 :-+ That $420.00 for the Rigol would buy 4 or 5 PD precisions including shipping. Yeah there are a lot of features you are not getting on the PD's but I still love them. Wait a minute.... I am preaching to the choir ;D
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It also don't think that the extra digit license is of any use, it is just for bragging rights.
Waiting for the teardown :-/O
Robrenz, in USA maybe, not anywhere in the world, lucky you :rant:
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+1 :-+ That $420.00 for the Rigol would buy 4 or 5 PD precisions including shipping. Yeah there are a lot of features you are not getting on the PD's but I still love them. Wait a minute.... I am preaching to the choir ;D
When you find someone who won't ask for $200 to ship one of those to Romania (or any country in Europe) let me know.
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Robrenz, in USA maybe, not anywhere in the world, lucky you :rant:
Sorry :-[ I was not trying to make anyone feel bad. As messed up as many aspects of the US are, it certainly has many more benefits.
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For anyone interested in a GW Instek PSP-603, the UK seller is still offering them for GBP80 each and I believe he has a lot of stock, so there should be more available if you ask him. He also had stock of the PSP-405 at the same price. I purchased a GW Instek DSO off of him direct for GBP150. He is a good chap to deal with, nothing dodgy. He has switched from Selling Test equipment to selling Caravans !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-AND-STILL-IN-BOX-G-W-INSTEK-PSP-603-PSU-PROGRAMMABLE-60V-3-5A-/271257510711?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3f28352337 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-AND-STILL-IN-BOX-G-W-INSTEK-PSP-603-PSU-PROGRAMMABLE-60V-3-5A-/271257510711?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3f28352337)
As someone has already stated, it is a SMPSU. This may effect some peoples buying decision but the PSU is very well built and performs well during my use for the past year. It is alos loght enough to be stacked on the bench without issues.
I did buy a Digimess (Grundig) PN300 programmable Linear Power supply and that is used for any work that requires a linear supply. I have yet to need it though ! That unit came direct from Digimess for GBP50 as it had a mains fuse blowing fault...simple fix, one of the Toroid transformer wires was damaged and touching chassis due to transit movement. That's is a problem with centre mounted large Toroid transformers.
There are some very good power supplies that use the KISS principle. If you are patient you may find one at a great price as in my two examples. I used a couple of very old Thurlby Thandar (TTi) PL320 Linear PSU's before the new units but they had a nasty habit of going to full output voltage when the Volts pot was adjusted :scared: That killed at least two pieces of equipment so they got dumped....crap design.
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+1 :-+ That $420.00 for the Rigol would buy 4 or 5 PD precisions including shipping. Yeah there are a lot of features you are not getting on the PD's but I still love them. Wait a minute.... I am preaching to the choir ;D
When you find someone who won't ask for $200 to ship one of those to Romania (or any country in Europe) let me know.
The HP 6114A and 6115A are even better than the PD's and may be available in the EU
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Just in case it wasn't obvious, the benefit of the higher resolution is in the ability to increase/decrease the voltage/current by 1mV/1mA intervals, and not just the readout showing an extra digit. This can be very useful for doing things like measuring the small-signal gain of transistors etc.
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Just in case it wasn't obvious, the benefit of the higher resolution is in the ability to increase/decrease the voltage/current by 1mV/1mA intervals, and not just the readout showing an extra digit. This can be very useful for doing things like measuring the small-signal gain of transistors etc.
Sorry but without Hi-Res you can actually increase/decrease the set current at a resolution of 1mA, you just can’t see on the big readout digits. But the voltage is 10mV for set and readout without Hi-Res.
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Hi Guys,
First post here. Excuse my English, not my native language.
Hi Dave,
In the user manual for DP832 Rigol has a TIP:
When powering on the Instrument after powering off it, make sure that the time interval between the two operations is greater than 5s.
Would it be possible for you to make another test and see if that spike is still there after 5s?
Thanks for the great reviews and info.
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Robrenz, in USA maybe, not anywhere in the world, lucky you :rant:
Sorry :-[ I was not trying to make anyone feel bad. As messed up as many aspects of the US are, it certainly has many more benefits.
Not making me feel bad at all, just jealous, and when you restore them, drool worthy masterpieces.
In Europe the cheapest nice supplies that I know are the HP6632B that KJDS is selling on eBay, sadly only 1 channel per PSU.
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Hi Guys,
First post here. Excuse my English, not my native language.
Hi Dave,
In the user manual for DP832 Rigol has a TIP:
When powering on the Instrument after powering off it, make sure that the time interval between the two operations is greater than 5s.
Would it be possible for you to make another test and see if that spike is still there after 5s?
Thanks for the great reviews and info.
Hi g3org3,
Good find! Hopefully Dave or someone here can try your suggestion and let us know if it has an impact on the spikes.
PS, your English is A-OK :)
Mike
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at 38:48 there are 9sec with almost 5sec 10R load and Dave still got that spike, so no, this is not solution.
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No matter how long you wait between power-ups on my PSU, the 2V pulse still occurs on chan1 and the 5V spike still occurs on chan2. I don’t see any issues with Chan3.
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Dave thanks for the video this is making me looking at getting one.
The question I have for anyone is Dave did a start up transient with the output enable (not the power switch) and said it did not over shoot. If I'm not mistaken it was done at higher voltages. Can anyone that has one of these confirm that they do not over shoot at lower voltages such as 1.2V, 1.8V, 3.3V 2.5V... I have a POS bk precision 1550 and it overshoots and their response is basically it is a crappy supply and to but a better one... WTF! Dont sell it if you all know it is a POS!
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The question I have for anyone is Dave did a start up transient with the output enable (not the power switch) and said it did not over shoot. If I'm not mistaken it was done at higher voltages. Can anyone that has one of these confirm that they do not over shoot at lower voltages such as 1.2V, 1.8V, 3.3V 2.5V... I have a POS bk precision 1550 and it overshoots and their response is basically it is a crappy supply and to but a better one... WTF! Dont sell it if you all know it is a POS!
You’ll have to wait for someone with equipment like an electronic load to get some good tests results for this PSU, but for 1.2, 1.8, 2.5 and 3.3 Volts, I didn’t see any overshoot on any of the channels (when each channels was enabled). The output was just the same type of smooth ramp you saw in the video. But that was with a 10 ohm load. With no load, sometimes it would ramp up the voltage even slower in a more linear fashion.
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Having watched Dave's video I measured my tti ql355 power supply for switch on spikes, and was amazed to see 4 or 5 transients up to 20v, positive and negative, though only for about 100ns duration per transient.
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Having watched Dave's video I measured my tti ql355 power supply for switch on spikes, and was amazed to see 4 or 5 transients up to 20v, positive and negative, though only for about 100ns duration per transient.
Wow, TTi has been one of my holy grails / hopefuls on this issue, are you pretty sure? (I'm sure you are sure, just checking :) )
Maybe we need a bit of written / clear-cut test protocol so that we are all looking at / testing the same things?
Once we get a simple test process then we could see if users of various PSs (Rigol, TTi, Agilent, and others) might be up for following the script and reporting the results.
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Just in case it helps anyone ID the problem/solution - and also test other 832's or other PS's, here is a quick recap of what (I think) were the tests and findings in the video starting at about 36:27:
1. AC on, switch on Ch 1 no load – no noise
2. AC on, switch on Ch 1 with 40 watt load – no noise
3. AC on, switch on Ch 1 40 watt load - no overshoot 20ms/div
4. AC on, switch on Ch 1 no load - good
5. AC on, switch on Ch 3 5 volts no load - good
6. AC off/on – 2V on output (first of these tests that seemed to get a different result than what was expected)
7. AC off/on – 1.5V on output for 250ms
8. AC off/on – with 10 ohm load ok, just ringing
9. AC off/on – with no load some amount of transient output
10. AC off/on – (2nd channel) negative 0.4 volts output
11. AC off/on – (2nd channel) with 10 ohm load – some amount of transient output
12. AC off/on – (2nd channel) with 10 ohm load – 4 volts transient for some amount of time
(Not all the test gear and displays were visible at all times. This was the best I could do to transcribe the video based on what we could see and hear. Feel free to add/correct any info. Thx)
Just to "zoom out", it looks like the unit performs well when the AC power is already on and then an invdividual output is turned on; the issue seems to be when the the AC power is switched on - sometimes something leaks through the outputs?
Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
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+1 for a teardown :D i am thinking about ordering one, but if i get it before Dave has a teardown Video i have to disassemble mine...
:q! Uwe
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Indeed. Does anyone have one? sounds like the right question:
An engineer I know actually services many m/f's Pro power supplies. Knows their various design intricacies - He has seen this before!
Word is Kikusui takes a lot of design care on kind of thing... Quite upmarket gear!
Found one Kikusui DC supply in video here: Kikusui PWX DC Programmable Power Supply will be featuring at NEW Scotland 1-2 May. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKmcqeu7pdU#ws)
...This m/f does a range of DC bench models as well apparently
Dave
...
Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
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Having watched Dave's video I measured my tti ql355 power supply for switch on spikes, and was amazed to see 4 or 5 transients up to 20v, positive and negative, though only for about 100ns duration per transient.
Wow, TTi has been one of my holy grails / hopefuls on this issue, are you pretty sure? (I'm sure you are sure, just checking :) )
Maybe we need a bit of written / clear-cut test protocol so that we are all looking at / testing the same things?
Once we get a simple test process then we could see if users of various PSs (Rigol, TTi, Agilent, and others) might be up for following the script and reporting the results.
Most likely it is simply the spark produced by the switch creating a wideband RF noise source, your circuit will not see that, but a high impedance scope input will.
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Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
The easy way would be to put a real relay in the output on/off switch, when you depend on solid state stuff there is always the uncertaincy when you power it up.
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Having watched Dave's video I measured my tti ql355 power supply for switch on spikes, and was amazed to see 4 or 5 transients up to 20v, positive and negative, though only for about 100ns duration per transient.
Wow, TTi has been one of my holy grails / hopefuls on this issue, are you pretty sure? (I'm sure you are sure, just checking :) )
Maybe we need a bit of written / clear-cut test protocol so that we are all looking at / testing the same things?
Once we get a simple test process then we could see if users of various PSs (Rigol, TTi, Agilent, and others) might be up for following the script and reporting the results.
Most likely it is simply the spark produced by the switch creating a wideband RF noise source, your circuit will not see that, but a high impedance scope input will.
You may well be right. When I disconnect the scope probes from the PSU I still see the same transients when switching on, though they reduce in amplitude by about half, so RF from the switch looks the likely source, well spotted.
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A stupid question :)
What do you use such a power supply for? I am wondering what sort of projects are you working on.... Same for the your 20Mhz+ oscillos.
I seem to be happy with my USB scope, batteries and sometimes my PC power supply, I want to know what am I missing out for being such a cheap ass :P
Cheers!
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A stupid question :)
What do you use such a power supply for? I am wondering what sort of projects are you working on.... Same for the your 20Mhz+ oscillos.
I seem to be happy with my USB scope, batteries and sometimes my PC power supply, I want to know what am I missing out for being such a cheap ass :P
Cheers!
First project with the DP832 was a voltage level switch... 3.3v supply to the MCU which was switching a higher voltage (between 5V and 15V) with the switching level adjustable via a 10-turn pot. In that case, I needed at least 2 outputs and it was nice to be able to set the DP832 to, say 6.32 volts and see what the turn-on point was, then make adjustments in software to get everything just right.
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Yep, I agree with PA0PBZ: consider a relay or FET that isolates the outputs just long enough for stable operation at 0.000 volts (perhaps use a low cost power monitoring chip for that purpose), then turn on the outputs, thus blocking any output instabilities. Then, if this option was selected for power on, let the unit do it's normal clean ramp to the remembered output settings.
Another poster posited (using other words) that perhaps this capability is there and just not working in firmware... could be an easy fix then.
Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
The easy way would be to put a real relay in the output on/off switch, when you depend on solid state stuff there is always the uncertaincy when you power it up.
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Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
The easy way would be to put a real relay in the output on/off switch, when you depend on solid state stuff there is always the uncertaincy when you power it up.
Yep, I agree with PA0PBZ: consider a relay or FET that isolates the outputs just long enough for stable operation at 0.000 volts (perhaps use a low cost power monitoring chip for that purpose), then turn on the outputs, thus blocking any output instabilities. Then, if this option was selected for power on, let the unit do it's normal clean ramp to the remembered output settings.
Another poster posited (using other words) that perhaps this capability is there and just not working in firmware... could be an easy fix then.
Pretty sure this won't be fixed in firmware as the output glitch it likely caused by an unknown state before the onboard micro-controller has finished loading/booting/setup etc.
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Central to all of this is the question: Can a DC power supply output be expected to never leak DC when the AC power is turned on while the outputs are turned off? Does anyone have such a power supply?
The easy way would be to put a real relay in the output on/off switch, when you depend on solid state stuff there is always the uncertaincy when you power it up.
Yep, I agree with PA0PBZ: consider a relay or FET that isolates the outputs just long enough for stable operation at 0.000 volts (perhaps use a low cost power monitoring chip for that purpose), then turn on the outputs, thus blocking any output instabilities. Then, if this option was selected for power on, let the unit do it's normal clean ramp to the remembered output settings.
Another poster posited (using other words) that perhaps this capability is there and just not working in firmware... could be an easy fix then.
Pretty sure this won't be fixed in firmware as the output glitch it likely caused by an unknown state before the onboard micro-controller has finished loading/booting/setup etc.
Depending on how well they write the boot loader they can still minimize it. If they make sure that the very first instructions the MCU fetch on power on reset sets the GPIO pins to shut the FETs off they have a shot at cutting the pulse down to micro seconds.
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I think some engineers and technicians get way too caught up in the test equipment on the bench and lose sight of what the hobby/profession is all about and the Rigol 832 is a perfect example of this.
I have two HP E3615A power supplies on my bench and I would not trade them for a 832 no matter what. I made the mistake once of getting caught up in the Wiz bang Bling of a Chinese product when I bought my Owon 8202 (200 MHZ) scope to replace my older Tektronix Digital, this was long before it's short comings were known. To be fair it works OK but it's so dam time consuming to use and none of the features work perfectly or intuitively.
The 832 felt like a deja vu in that it does a lot of neat things but very few of them will I ever use in my daily work and most of them don't work perfectly or intuitively or give me a feeling of trust. Since using the Owon and yes I know Dave said it's a POS but I also thought the scope he reviewed the following week was even worst but he was not as harsh with it as he was with the Owon but I guess that's pretty much how he felt at the time.
Anyway when I am working I want a power supply that I can 100% trust and is easy to use, these half baked Chinese products always try to Mimic the advanced features of their much more expensive rivals and they always end up doing a piss poor job at it and on top of that end up with core features that are unreliable eg the overshoot. Would I trust a 832 to Bias a $300 RF FET, No Way! Do I want to be constantly going into Menus and trying to remember how each piece of counter intuitive equipment on my bench works, No Way! All of this stuff is a distraction from the thoughts I am having as I trouble shoot a design or try to figure out why something is not working and that's the problem with a lot of this equipment, people spend more time playing with it than actually making or fixing things with it.
BTW another example of good equipment made right is the Fluke 87V. I love my Fluke 87V, I can trust it and I must admit I find it amusing when Dave puts the 87V to the back and puts his Agilent front and Center whenever a critical test comes up and then we get to see the least two significant digits on the Agilent moving around like a slot machine. Anyway I love Dave's videos I just wish that when he did equipment reviews they were done with a little less ratings emphasis on the rarely used features and concentrated more on the accuracy and usability of the basic features that most of us use 99% of the time.
Just my 2 cents.
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I think some engineers and technicians get way too caught up in the test equipment on the bench and lose sight of what the hobby/profession is all about and the Rigol 832 is a perfect example of this.
My thoughts exactly, but put into words better than I could have done.
The problem for Rigol and many similar low end manufacturers is, that a huge fraction of their potential customers are not very skilled when it comes to analog techniques and technologies. In particular many beginners tend to focus exclusively on the pure digital domain, as they can rather easily and quickly get something worthwhile accomplished. Who need this old school analog stuff anyway? We'll just throw a good A/D at it, and do everything in the programming, right? ;)
So at first blush it makes sense for Rigol to focus on the cheap frills, which can easily and inexpensively be added to the digital functionality. Add some LEDs, an LCD, some buttons and rotary encoders, and you have a huge opportunity for 'value added extras'. Better still, from the point of view of Rigol marketing, the beginner has a lot to talk about when 'evaluating' a product with many digitally implemented bells and whistles, and feel they can contribute meaningfully to the public debate.
Take my question earlier in the thread about whether the +5V rail ought to have had a +6V limit. Apparently people don't actually do any *testing* or *troubleshooting*, as opposed to just potentially wanting to use the PSU to power stuff. In my little world it is a 'done' thing to raise and lower rail voltages slightly away from nominal, as a natural part of testing and troubleshooting. I do that even for my hobby stuff, as it is easy to do. So to me having a low voltage rail with a limit of 'only' +5V feels a bit ... odd? :-//
Similarly, thinking of your $300 RF FET here, no-one but you has yet questioned how well this PSU holds up to a bit of RF riding shotgun on the power rails. As I suspect you will be aware, then some PSUs can go completely nuts, if they see just a hair of RF on their outputs. On the other hand it is a near certainty that Agilent's HP's Greybeards will have tested their PSUs to absolute destruction during development of their E36xx series and all the rest. They will know that their potential customers will use the PSUs to power RF equipment with the covers off etc.
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Depending on how well they write the boot loader they can still minimize it. If they make sure that the very first instructions the MCU fetch on power on reset sets the GPIO pins to shut the FETs off they have a shot at cutting the pulse down to micro seconds.
You can't do that in a few uSecs: the thing is powered from a 15-20 mS pulsed voltage which has to charge the caps, stabilize and activate the reset circuit of the MCU. Only after that you can switch off the output.
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Would I trust a 832 to Bias a $300 RF FET, No Way!
Well but this is an extreme example and not really representative of what people around here work on.. Also raising the voltage to 6V as ElectroIrradiator is not a good case since there are many simple ways to do it (add one battery?)
I'm looking for examples that would justify buying these scopes and power supplies, and you guys are perfect for that since you may be fully utilizing such equipment.. Could you guys give any examples?
I'd like to list 10 reasons/projects where I'd need such lab equipment (rather than a PC power supply unit)
Cheers
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Would I trust a 832 to Bias a $300 RF FET, No Way!
Well but this is an extreme example and not really representative of what people around here work on.. Also raising the voltage to 6V as ElectroIrradiator is not a good case since there are many simple ways to do it (add one battery?)
I'm looking for examples that would justify buying these scopes and power supplies, and you guys are perfect for that since you may be fully utilizing such equipment.. Could you guys give any examples?
I'd like to list 10 reasons/projects where I'd need such lab equipment (rather than a PC power supply unit)
Cheers
With your PC power supply how do you set the voltage for 3.3 volts and 0.25 amps? And then what do you have to do to set it to 5.0 volts and 1.0 amp? Or 20.5 volts and 4.5 amps? How long does it take to make these settings and what do you have to do to display the volts and amps as you make these changes (connect 2 DMMs? How accurate are those DMMs and how much did they cost?) And if you want to toggle the PS back and forth between 1.0v and 5.0v for 80ms on each setting for 12 intervals how do you do that with your PC power supply? With the PC power supply how quickly and confidently can you set volts to 1/100 of a volt or amps to 1/100th of an amp? Ever strive to dial-in a millivolt or a milliamp? How does your PC power supply deal with switching between constant voltage and constant current? What indication does it give you that it's moving between CV and CC? And when you first turn on the PC power supply how quickly does it hit the target voltage and with how much if any overshoot? And how do you control the output from the PC power supply (do you have to turn off the AC input each time you want to shut off the output)? If your PC power supply handles all this stuff pretty accurately and easily - and more importantly if it handles whatever you are doing with it - I'd say stick with it.
PS, how many batteries do you use in a year doing tests? If the 1.5 volt batteries cost 40 cents and 9 volt batteries cost $2.00 and you go through 4 of each per month in about a year you could have a $100 power supply and in 3 years you could have a $300 power supply, and each year thereafter you'd be $100 ahead. But if you aren't consuming batteries and the PC power supply has you covered then you are all set.
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Depending on how well they write the boot loader they can still minimize it. If they make sure that the very first instructions the MCU fetch on power on reset sets the GPIO pins to shut the FETs off they have a shot at cutting the pulse down to micro seconds.
A pulldown resistor for the MOSFET's gate (n-channel) is a very simple, reliable and cheap solution. There are things which can be done in hardware much better than in software >:D
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With your PC power supply how do you set the voltage for 3.3 volts and 0.25 amps? And then what do you have to do to set it to 5.0 volts and 1.0 amp? Or 20.5 volts and 4.5 amps?
Agreed but again give me real life examples where you needed that.. Or use cases that hobbiist and are likely to find in their projects.
Examples examples examples :)
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A pulldown resistor for the MOSFET's gate (n-channel) is a very simple, reliable and cheap solution. There are things which can be done in hardware much better than in software >:D
Of course, but since you have to pull the gate up at a certain moment, and you don't know the state of your controlling circuit before your processor runs.... If it was that simple we would not have any PSU's with this kind of behaviour don't you think?
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Well but this is an extreme example and not really representative of what people around here work on.. Also raising the voltage to 6V as ElectroIrradiator is not a good case since there are many simple ways to do it (add one battery?)
A battery in series with the PSU? I won't comment anything on that :-)
I'm looking for examples that would justify buying these scopes and power supplies, and you guys are perfect for that since you may be fully utilizing such equipment.. Could you guys give any examples?
Standard circuit with a MCU (3.3V or 5V) and some dual rail OPamps (+/-15V).
I'd like to list 10 reasons/projects where I'd need such lab equipment (rather than a PC power supply unit)
If you can't think about any reasons yourself you simply don't need any fancy PSU.
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A pulldown resistor for the MOSFET's gate (n-channel) is a very simple, reliable and cheap solution. There are things which can be done in hardware much better than in software >:D
Of course, but since you have to pull the gate up at a certain moment, and you don't know the state of your controlling circuit before your processor runs.... If it was that simple we would not have any PSU's with this kind of behaviour don't you think?
Sure, it takes more effort to design a circuit supporting save operation modes while powering up or down. You won't find that for inexpensive PSUs, because the PSU is built to be inexpensive.
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A battery in series with the PSU? I won't comment anything on that :-)
I didnt say that
If you can't think about any reasons yourself you simply don't need any fancy PSU.
Ok, but show me your use cases and the projects you developed where you actually needed it. :) if you have a blog just post it.
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@xchip
From your replies I assume you are relatively new to electronics? Seriously if you need to ask for applications on using a dedicated bench power supply, I advice you to build more projects. Learn about electronics, fail and start over again, learn about the difference of voltage and current. If you gain these basic principles you will see the need/advantages of a bench power supply in stead of a hacked PC supply. :)
On a side note. I've commented previously that the voltage reading on the channels are not live if the outputs are switched off. I personally find this a real shame, however if the set overvoltage (OVP) has been engaged, the output is switched off and now there's a live reading of the voltage at the output! Not very useful ofcourse, but it should be easy to add a live voltage reading if the outputs are disabled by a firmware update.
Is there any way to suggest such a functionality and communicate this to Rigol? Maybe Marmad who has some 'credit' at the responsible Rigol Engineers?
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BTW another example of good equipment made right is the Fluke 87V. I love my Fluke 87V, I can trust it and I must admit I find it amusing when Dave puts the 87V to the back and puts his Agilent front and Center whenever a critical test comes up and then we get to see the least two significant digits on the Agilent moving around like a slot machine. Anyway I love Dave's videos I just wish that when he did equipment reviews they were done with a little less ratings emphasis on the rarely used features and concentrated more on the accuracy and usability of the basic features that most of us use 99% of the time.
To talk about the Fluke 87V and usability / "intuitivity" (don't get me wrong, I have one and it's a great DMM), can you tell me from the top of your head how to use the relative zoom bar graph mode? Or how to activate the smoothing feature?
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If you can't think about any reasons yourself you simply don't need any fancy PSU.
Ok, but show me your use cases and the projects you developed where you actually needed it. :) if you have a blog just post it.
- audio stuff (still need a lab PSU with 2*60-80V at 5A for power amps)
- MCU stuff
- PSUs
- repairs
- powering tools
And the features I mostly use are:
- CV
- CC (preventing the magic smoke :-)
- tracking (2nd output follows first one)
- locking (can't change output)
I don't need any really fancy lab PSUs, just solid basic ones.
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@nack examples examples examples :) Give me your examples, what is that cool thing you worked on that you couldn't have done it without an adjustable power supply...
@madires
- audio: Are you creating your own audio amp? But then the very first thing you need to do is to build a power supply, right? If you are just repairing it then just use the power supply that comes with the amplifier.
- MCU well, for this is ideal a PC PSU :)
- repairs, as in audio, if the power supply is broken then that is what you need to fix, if not no need for a power supply
- powering tools, what sort of tools are those that come without a power supply?
A very good use case I have found though is from http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/ (http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/) hes a very cool guy that has a video blog that shows you lots of cool projects and experiments, and many times he needs to show how a certain value changes with voltage or intensity... you should check it out. But any other projects besides his.. I dont think they really need a very fancy PSU... my PC's one has 3.3v(never used), 5V(logic), 12V (that i use for motors/steppers) ans -12v(which I never use because I tend to use low voltage op amps or virtual ground...)
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- audio: Are you creating your own audio amp? But then the very first thing you need to do is to build a power supply, right? If you are just repairing it then just use the power supply that comes with the amplifier.
Actually you design the amp first because the specs for the PSU might change during the design. And if you design the PSU, don't you test it? What happens with undervoltage or overvoltage? What happens if you overload the PSU? Sometimes the PSU of an amp is designed so badly you need a solid PSU for testing and measuring.
- MCU well, for this is ideal a PC PSU :)
Like providing 24V or 48V for actuators or +/-15V for OPamps? Isolated power rails?
- repairs, as in audio, if the power supply is broken then that is what you need to fix, if not no need for a power supply
Why do you think that everything has it's own PSU? And if you just repaired the PSU the magic smoke is released again because there's much more broken in the circuit. A lab PSU with CC will be very handy.
- powering tools, what sort of tools are those that come without a power supply?
The one you build yourself or you buy without any PSU because the PSU is sold as option for an insane price.
A very good use case I have found though is from http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/ (http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/) hes a very cool guy that has a video blog that shows you lots of cool projects and experiments, and many times he needs to show how a certain value changes with voltage or intensity... you should check it out. But any other projects besides his.. I dont think they really need a very fancy PSU... my PC's one has 3.3v(never used), 5V(logic), 12V (that i use for motors/steppers) ans -12v(which I never use because I tend to use low voltage op amps or virtual ground...)
I need variable voltages up to +-/80V and CC.
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Wow after making my post I now remember why I gave this forum a break.
Most of you guys I can tell are knowledgeable and know your stuff, but the others are just going on like little kids!
I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact. In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron). Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software. Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.
Don't get me wrong, when Dave does videos about stuff like the constant current dummy load, or the FPGA tutorial or any of the other circuit design stuff it's all brilliant but the equipment review while well intentioned just steer many of you away from the path you should be following if you want to actually do stuff and not just be playing around with test gear all day long.
You guys like Mike, I like Mike, I bet younger Mike did not learn what he knows by screwing around all day trying to figure out what the latest scope can do or how to use a power supply with 100 options. I would bet good money he learned what he knows by using a minimal amount of equipment and spending lots of time learning how components and circuits work and building circuits and repairing stuff. And now that he knows electronics he has earned the right and Lol the Money to buy top notch equipment. That's the way you do it, not the other way around :-// The other way around typically means you learn nothing!
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Hi! Anyone noticed the false voltage readout around 29:30 in the video? CH3 shows 0.404V while it was clearly set to 5V 1A... What's going on there?
I'm a software guy, and I'm pretty much an amateur when it comes to electronics, but probably because of these, I had a few questions forming in my head.
The display is actually a color one, only the display themes are monochrome. It could show colored warnings (the color theme selection screen shows different available colors, so it clearly isn't a monochrome LCD and an RGB backlight), so why not then? For example it could flash the background red on a channel (when the color theme isn't red), to indicate a problem on that channel (overload, short, whatever). The segmented GUI on the "higher end" model looks stupid, true, but a touch of color would be nice on this one.
If this power supply is software controlled and measures the output voltage and a maximum current can be set, why it can't dial up (or down) the output voltage to the set value while the output's power consumption is still below the set limit? It would have required only a few lines of code and it would supply 10.000V bang on.
I think I was expecting a bit more from a product like this, but keep in mind, I don't have a programmable power supply, and I don't even have a decent soldering station. :)
Btw. this was my first comment, although I'm a long time fan of Dave's videos.
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Hi! Anyone noticed the false voltage readout around 29:30 in the video? CH3 shows 0.404V while it was clearly set to 5V 1A... What's going on there?
Ohm's law says it can't deliver both 5V and 1A at the same time unless the load is 5 ohms, so it delivers the maximum it can manage without exceeding either limit. The total resistance of the multimeter's sense resistor and the probe wires must have been 0.404 ohms.
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Interesting review. It has a lot of features which I don't need, but a better power supply than what I have could be useful (currently some wall warts and a cheap EUR 50 "Digi30-5"). The programming manual of the Rigol looks good if I want to implement more complex sequences.
A question for the experts: What cheaper devices can you recommend (<EUR 200 would be good), maybe with just two outputs, a simple display and maybe OCP and OVP? Precision is not important, I can live with 2 or 3 digits. But with a PC interface to set voltage/current limits and measure the voltage/current if I want to implement some test sequence. And should not overshoot at power-up, because I like to leave anything connected and then just turn on anything with the big mains switch when I start working.
And another question from a newbie: Why do you need such high precision for a power supply? It looks like the Rigol doesn't have some additional high impedance feedback wires, so if you draw more than a few milliampere, the contact and cable resistance will result in a much bigger voltage drop than the precision of the device.
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I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact. In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron). Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software. Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.
Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?
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Dave,
I would just like to thank you for your videos and the excellent content over the years. Since watching your Video Blog and reading the Forum I have completely updated my labs test equipment at least twice :o I have purchased some equipment new, and some used. The result is that I have a very capable lab that can handle most real world scenarios. It all started with the Rigol DS1052E, way back. I wanted a DSO and your insight helped me decide on the model to purchase. A decision I have never regretted. Not your fault, but my bank balance has been suffering ever since discovering your Blog and Forum :palm: BUT I have learnt a lot :-+
Much of the test equipment that you have reviewed has been very interesting. This power supply equally so, but for a different reason. It is like Marmite (Yeast Spread) in the UK, you either love it or hate it ! I fall into the latter category for reasons that I have mentioned (I love Marmite though). BUT there will be those who love the high tech front panel and display so they may buy it. From my perspective, there are test equipments that are necessarily complex in terms of front panel layout and displays, others need not be. I have always considered a lab power supply to be a simple device containing a decent transformer/SMPSU and a variable voltage and current regulator. No need for the front panel to be too fancy, just functional. My concern with the Rigol is that it appears as if Rigol are deliberately trying to make their humble power supply appear as complex and 'whizzy' as a spectrum analyser ! This appears to me to be just a marketing ploy. Well good luck to them but I am more impressed by performance than flashy front panels. There is a place for radical user interface design, usually at the Motor shows and inside Citroen cars :-DD but on the test bench ? As has been stated.....where is this 'precision' power supplies 'Sense' input :-// Without such it is missing the point of precision voltage and current completely !
It is good that your video has extracted the views of so many technical bods, maybe that will influence designers who read the blog ?
I wonder if Rigol carry out UAT (User acceptance testing) before production ? Maybe they could let you test prototypes before full production. You knowledge and that of the forum could significantly improve their products user interfaces. Maybe they could engage you as a consultant ? That might knacker your independent review status though ?
Keep up the good work, and I hope you feel better soon.
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As has been stated.....where is this 'precision' power supplies 'Sense' input :-// Without such it is missing the point of precision voltage and current completely !
Whilst I agree that's an important feature for a precision PSU, I don't think it's essential (on a low end one like this) nor does it make your precision supply useless without it.
Precision current for example is still going to be valid in the majority of usage scenarios. And the precision voltage is still very handy for when you have a very low impedance path between your PSU and DUT.
0.05% at 12V for example is 6mV, which would allow for say 6 miliohms at 1A to still give you a handy precision 0.1% tolerance.
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Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?
I think what he means is that people focus too much on having super cool test equipment rather than on fully utilizing it... If you look at blogs or the 'show off your projects' subforum you wont see any projects that really require a 20Mhz oscilloscope or a decent power supply. There are a couple of guys working on some RF, but the rest of us would be ok with just a USB oscilloscope and a PSU power supply..
But take our 'complaints' actually as a compliment :) We tell you all this just because we think you are great! In reality what we mean is: Dave, please push the limits of the hobbyist edge, show us your tricks, projects we never thought of, make us jealous, show us what are we missing out for not having such scopes! As a side effect you'll be plenty of content for your videos :)
But this is just an opinion of course, you don't have to take it of you don't want to, but if you want to that would be awesome :)
Cheers!
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I think what he means is that people focus too much
No such thing as "too much" if that's what your interest is.
No one should be telling anyone what they should focus their interest in.
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In reality what we mean is: Dave, please push the limits of the hobbyist edge, show us your tricks, projects we never thought of, make us jealous, show us what are we missing out for not having such scopes! As a side effect you'll be plenty of content for your videos :)
Sure. How about no videos for the next 6 months whilst I work on something "awesome", ok?
But then of course, I could spend 6 months working on some cool project to have a whole bunch of people (rightly, because they aren't interested in it) go "meh".
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As has been stated.....where is this 'precision' power supplies 'Sense' input :-// Without such it is missing the point of precision voltage and current completely !
Whilst I agree that's an important feature for a precision PSU, I don't think it's essential (on a low end one like this) nor does it make your precision supply useless without it.
Precision current for example is still going to be valid in the majority of usage scenarios. And the precision voltage is still very handy for when you have a very low impedance path between your PSU and DUT.
0.05% at 12V for example is 6mV, which would allow for say 6 miliohms at 1A to still give you a handy precision 0.1% tolerance.
Love your first impressions videos, would be nice if many would relax and realize that is what they are. I like the features of the 832 but also wish the front panel were not so bizarre. What is sad is that Rigol is using the marketing ploy of excellent banner accuracy percentages 0.05% for V and 0.15% for A with large added offset 5mV and 5mA. looks great at first glance and sadly most do not do the math to see what the real percent of value errors are. 10V is 0.1% max error 3.3V is 0.2%max error, 1.0V is 0.55% max error. Still good performance but far from that banner 0.05%
Thanks for all your great work Dave :-+
EDIT: corrected values. I initialy used the programming accuracies, the readback is slightly better specs
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As has been stated.....where is this 'precision' power supplies 'Sense' input
It is now classified as "High-End" power supply by Dave.
High-End power supply do not need any senses... oops and High-End power supply can first destroy your connected things when it boots up but still it is "High-End" power supply.
Well... it is good to know that term "High-End" have newly specified to cover all stuffs.
I'm "old school people" and I hope this term use very carefully...
If Dave call this High-End....well I do not know what to think.
(Video, starting 41:37)
How about regulation, noise level, regulation response times for step changing loads, accuracy and so on... ? I think there is lot of quaestion before can use term "High-End"... but I'm happy he did not tell it is "state of art"...
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As has been stated.....where is this 'precision' power supplies 'Sense' input :-//
i'm not sure if the "high end .... precision power supply" statement in Dave's first impression video (between 41:38 and 41:55) was
related to "832 as low end 832A as precision high end" or i he simply revised his initial opinion (note the title: first impression video!):
Whilst I agree that's an important feature for a precision PSU, I don't think it's essential (on a low end one like this)
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It is now classified as "High-End" power supply by Dave.
Why play silly verbal semantics?
IMO any precision/programmable PSU can be classed as "high end" compared to a dumb knob based standard supply.
And the 832 at the $400 price point is at the very bottom cheap-arse "low end" of that precision/programmable market.
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What is sad is that Rigol is using the marketing ploy of excellent banner accuracy percentages 0.05% for V and 0.2% for A with large added offset 10mV and 10 mA. looks great at first glance and sadly most do not do the math to see what the real percent of value errors are. 10V is 0.1% max error 3.3V is 0.2%max error, 1.0V is 0.55% max error. Still good performance but far from that banner 0.05%
Of course, but if you think of it in terms of counts (10 in this case), it's essentially no different to the Fluke 87V for example in 4.5 digit mode which has the same 0.05% +10 count spec.
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I think what he means is that people focus too much on having super cool test equipment rather than on fully utilizing it...
Well, I at least wasn't going in quite that direction, if that is the case. Cool test equipment is cool. 8)
For the record: I don't have any issues with Dave's video, how it was presented or what was said. I just saw it as an entertaining video, showing Dave's first impressions right as he unboxed the DP832.
What I am making noises about, is:
*) The direction Rigol & Co. appear to be taking, with adding lots of inexpensive bells and whistles, sometimes seemingly at the cost of core performance.
*) The confusion this can create among beginners, as they may struggle to understand which features are or are not important, and what gear they may (not) need when getting started.
*) Obscuring through careful marketing and other means exactly which - potentially expensive to implement - core parameters are considered important for a given type of gear. Which would you rather want: A gazillion extra GB of sample point storage in a DSO, or 300 MHz of extra bandwidth for a total of 500? Remote voltage sense in a high current PSU, or a beautiful LCD color display?
*) The potential risk of obfuscation of the important parameters and features these bells and whistles may create, when the community talk about a given piece of equipment. It is easy for everybody to talk about the front panel layout of the DP832. It may be a bit more difficult and time consuming to explain to a beginner, why I have chosen to pay good money for an E3644A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836877-pn-E3644A/80w-power-supply-8v-8a-or-20v-4a) for my home lab.
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*) The confusion this can create among beginners, as they may struggle to understand which features are or are not important, and what gear they may (not) need when getting started.
Any advanced test instrument will have that problem, nothing unique to Rigol.
*) Obscuring through careful marketing and other means exactly which - potentially expensive to implement - core parameters are considered important for a given type of gear. Which would you rather want: A gazillion extra GB of sample point storage in a DSO, or 300 MHz of extra bandwidth for a total of 500? Remote voltage sense in a high current PSU, or a beautiful LCD color display?
Nothing unique to Rigol here, everyone does it. Take that 10 count error in the Fluke for example, try finding it in the manual, it's not obvious.
Not on in test gear either, every chip maker does it.
As long as nothing is deliberately missing from the datasheet, what's the problem?
*) The potential risk of obfuscation of the important parameters and features these bells and whistles may create, when the community talk about a given piece of equipment. It is easy for everybody to talk about the front panel layout of the DP832. It may be a bit more difficult and time consuming to explain to a beginner, why I have chosen to pay good money for an E3644A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836877-pn-E3644A/80w-power-supply-8v-8a-or-20v-4a) for my home lab.
Once again, what is unique to Rigol here?
The same could be said about any of Agilent's fancy new gear.
The community will talk about what they want to talk about. If you see the case as you describe then why not start thread, do a blog post or video etc on the topic?
You can't expect threads on anything to go the way you want them to go, you can only attempt to drive them there yourself.
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Just one hint from my side to people currently in the market for a new PSU: don't overlook the Siglent SPD3303 series. There are some pros as well as some cons comparing it to the Rigol, chances are you'll like it better.
Looks nice: Siglent SPD3303D/S (http://www.siglent.com/en/product/detail5.aspx?id=100000014858258&nodecode=119008005), I've just ordered one. Costs EUR 279 at eBay here in Germany (free shipping), so a bit less expensive than the Rigol. I'll report back when I have it how it works.
Too bad that the manufacturers don't provide the schematics anymore. Maybe the power-up glitch could be easily fixed with just a pulldown resistor at the gate of some FET. I guess it can't be fixed by a firmware update, because looks like it was right after power-up when the operating system might still booting (looks like some Windows system with the c:\).
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Looks nice: Siglent SPD3303D/S (http://www.siglent.com/en/product/detail5.aspx?id=100000014858258&nodecode=119008005), I've just ordered one. Costs EUR 279 at eBay here in Germany (free shipping), so a bit less expensive than the Rigol. I'll report back when I have it how it works.
Too bad that the manufacturers don't provide the schematics anymore. Maybe the power-up glitch could be easily fixed with just a pulldown resistor at the gate of some FET. I guess it can't be fixed by a firmware update, because looks like it was right after power-up when the operating system might still booting (looks like some Windows system with the c:\).
And it works nice, too (well, at least for me). As for the power-on ("hard" power-on with a mains switch) glitches, I haven't noticed any on either of the two main outputs, but I did on the CH3. It's differrent kind of glitch, more like a spike and chances are it's because of the mains wiring in my house, i.e. no grounding (yes, I know ;))
As for the "C:" drive, I'm almost certain that's not Windows and they did that just so it looks familiar.
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Dave, hopefully you will find the time between stuffing envelopes to do a teardown.
I'd also like to see you do additional testing on the power-on glitch. Someone earlier in the thread suggested that it might just be EMI so I'm curious to see how you test to confirm that that's the case or not.
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The 1.5V for 250ms on channel 1 with no load is not an EMI effect, but should be no problem if you don't power very low voltage, low power things with it. The 4V on channel 2 for 10us might be more serious, because it is still there with the 10 ohm load. But 10us is short, maybe this could be some EMI effect? :-// But most parts would survive it. For many 3.3V microcontrollers, 4V is not much higher than the maximum rating.
Dave, maybe you can test it again with some real-world applications, like a 10uF capacitive load in parallel to a resistive load?
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Anyone daring to test the power on current spike with shorted output?
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Dave,
Not that you need my advice or permission...
Make whatever videos you want and work on projects that interest you! That is what got you here and why you do it!
Your popularity is entirely because of your knowledge, experience and obvoious excitment! :clap:
I'm not suggesting you ignore suggestions but temper them by your interest or it won't be the same.
-Joe
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Any advanced test instrument will have that problem, nothing unique to Rigol.
I beg your pardon? Are you saying the Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is about to get an upgrade with more bells and whistles? Well, admittedly it has only been on the market since the nineties, so I guess it is due for an overhaul. Which crucial features do you believe needs to be added, or how should its user interface be changed, compared to the Rigol DP832 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DP832/) ? (Yes, I am aware the E3631A only delivers 1A on the +/-25V rails).
As long as nothing is deliberately missing from the datasheet, what's the problem?
Try having a really, really close look at the detailed specifications for the Agilent DSOX-2022A and the Rigol DS2202. I will admit you may need a good magnifying glass, but it does look to me like there are a few interesting differences, apart from the obvious ones like sample memory depth. I will try to provide more info ASAP, if you are unable to spot any issues.
Once again, what is unique to Rigol here?
The same could be said about any of Agilent's fancy new gear.
The community will talk about what they want to talk about. If you see the case as you describe then why not start thread, do a blog post or video etc on the topic?
You can't expect threads on anything to go the way you want them to go, you can only attempt to drive them there yourself.
Uhm...? ???
*) I said 'Rigol & Co.' Many other manufacturers are guilty of the same issues IMO.
*) Agilent seem to introduce new models, when they have made actual technological advances, like the 1 million waveform updates per second in the 3000X/4000X scopes. Conversely, a good part of their program of linear benchtop lab PSUs hasn't changed in ages, since there is little to innovate here. You can only differentiate yourself in this area on price (lower quality), voltage and current levels for different rails or added features (UI bloat, see previous E3631A vs. DP832 comparison). Well, none of the Agilent PSUs have LXI as far as I know, there is that, of course.
*) I am talking about it. Right now. Not even sure I understand where you think you are going with the last two sentences.
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I have to say that the mentioned Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is a perfect example for what I call eye-cancer gear. In 2013 offerinbg a product in this price range with such an atrocious display is in my opinion a crime. In the 21st century a good multi-color high-res display and some nice layout & software design is not too much to ask for.
But also the Rigol is in some aspects more of a they-tried-but-failed product in terms of usability: true, the monochrome themes are not so bad really, at least well readable, but what is the point in having a multi-color display, if you just use one color in various brightness? I think these themes should be upgraded with some colors for warnings and and some additional info (e.g. current/voltage limit reached), and in addition they should design some "modern" ui elements that take full usage of state-of-the-art fonts and gui design. Clearly in the sister product DP832A they tried to do that, but ultimately failed, because the three display sections for the outputs are not really have-a-quick-look friendly. And they I don't even want to mention the completely botched numeric keys and rotary knob. Whoever came up with that should be sentenced to having to use such a keypad for the rest of his life.
All in all I think it's very refreshing for the market when new and feature-rich products get released by companies such as Rigol which now clearly have evolved from the entry/hobbyist segment into the (semi-)professional region. Many of the older professional big players have just kind of slept for the last 20/30 years when it comes to product design and usability. Today everything is basically done in software (and this often better than any hardware could ever do), so I think the customers have a right to demand products which utilize their capabilities to the full extend.
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I beg your pardon? Are you saying the Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is about to get an upgrade with more bells and whistles? Well, admittedly it has only been on the market since the nineties, so I guess it is due for an overhaul. Which crucial features do you believe needs to be added, or how should its user interface be changed, compared to the Rigol DP832 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DP832/) ?
Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.
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I beg your pardon? Are you saying the Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is about to get an upgrade with more bells and whistles? Well, admittedly it has only been on the market since the nineties, so I guess it is due for an overhaul. Which crucial features do you believe needs to be added, or how should its user interface be changed, compared to the Rigol DP832 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DP832/) ?
Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.
Absolutely.
To have such a huge front panel like that on a triple output supply and only display one channels V/A info is just stupid.
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I beg your pardon? Are you saying the Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is about to get an upgrade with more bells and whistles? Well, admittedly it has only been on the market since the nineties, so I guess it is due for an overhaul. Which crucial features do you believe needs to be added, or how should its user interface be changed, compared to the Rigol DP832 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DP832/) ?
Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.
Right, this is what is happening as display technology advances and as software becomes more familiar to both product designers and users.
When you have a one line display with a relatively limited amount of segment-based characters the product designer decides if the user should first see actual volts and actual amps or maybe set volts and set amps, but either way the user can can toggle between actual volts and actual amps to set volts and set amps, etc. When you get bigger displays you gain enough room for actual volts, actual amps, set volts, and set amps to all be displayed simultaneously. And that's for channel 1; if you have a 2nd channel maybe you have to hit a button and toggle some more.
As an example of the limitations and trade-offs forced by conventional segment-character displays you get (I realize these are electronic loads vs. a power supply) the BK 8500 vs. the Manyuo 9712. The BK shows volts and amps on one display, hit toggle and you can see ohms and watts. On the Maynuo you can see all four (volts, amps, ohms, watts) at the same time - which is nice if you want to watch some of the values drive the other values.
The next step up from adding more segmented characters per line and more lines per display is your basic LCD technology that descends from computer monitors and TVs. Now you can have bigger displays that present more information and no longer are you limited to alphanumerics and a few special characters. You can get graphs or potentially pixel-based images of almost of anything. No doubt, those resistant to change will say "well, I used to use a slide rule and I can do all the calculations in my head even without the slide rule - and anything more than the basics (whatever those familiar values might be) will defocus me from my mission", or something like that. For those people there could be a user option to display just the basics - whatever those might be. In a really well designed user interface such preferences (such as just "the basics" or extra large characters for viewing from across the lab, or whatever a user wants - within some reasonable confines) could potentially be designated user by user or lab by lab (if you wanted to standardize in a workgroup.)
We are now crossing over from what Agilent (and others) made so well recognized, understood, respected, and trusted to new ways of displaying information. Some people will prefer the old way/basics and others will prefer more information rich approaches.
My opinion is that the new technology and the additional information it can surface is potentially very desireable and I predict new user interfaces will evolve and some new version of the new way will become the new norm (even if it takes a few users kicking and screaming with it). BUT, and this is a big BUT, all of this display and user interface stuff is close to worthless (or worse than worseless) if it isn't backed up by reliable signal acquisition and processing. The data must be accurate to within published specs so that users can rely on the data acquired and presented whether they get it by visualizing a single monochrome character at a time as it scrolls by like an old stock ticker symbol display or by watching it in 3D color holographics. AND further, and this is a BIG AND, neither the user interface or the integrity of the signal and the resulting displayed information is of any value if the test equipment doesn't protect the DUT and the user. The first job of test equipment (used responsibly) is to DO NO HARM.
So, in ascending order (from #3/third most important to #1/most important), we get:
3. New displays and user interfaces are on the way - we should find a way to embrace and continually improve them.
2. More important than the display/UI (which is very important) is signal aquisition and processing integrity.
1. More important than 1 or 2 is that test equipment should do no harm to a responsible user or the user's DUT.
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Dave, how are you liking your DP832 so far? Will you be doing a full review and/or teardown anytime soon?
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We are now crossing over from what Agilent (and others) made so well recognized, understood, respected, and trusted to new ways of displaying information. Some people will prefer the old way/basics and others will prefer more information rich approaches.
I hold HP/Agilent gear in as much reverence as anyone, but that single channel display was as shitty back then as it is today. There was never any respect for that IMO. It's just the way HP/Agilent did it, and if you wanted HP/Agilent that's what you got.
So, in ascending order (from #3/third most important to #1/most important), we get:
3. New display and user interfaces are on the way - we should find a way to embrace and continually improve them.
2. More important than the display/UI (which is very imporant) is is signal aquisition and processing integrity.
1. More important than 1 or 2 is that the test equipment should do no harm to a responsible user or the user's DUT.
While they are at, they should maybe think about tightening up that loose +20mV spec on the voltage set. That's worse than Rigols.
After all, what good is that voltage sense input if your spec is 0.6% on a typical 3.3V output.
Oops, just realised the sense input is not available on the base model E3631A
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Dave, how are you liking your DP832 so far? Will you be doing a full review and/or teardown anytime soon?
Haven't done anything with it, or anything else, I've been very sick for a week now.
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We are now crossing over from what Agilent (and others) made so well recognized, understood, respected, and trusted to new ways of displaying information. Some people will prefer the old way/basics and others will prefer more information rich approaches.
I hold HP/Agilent gear in as much reverence as anyone, but that single channel display was as shitty back then as it is today. There was never any respect for that IMO. It's just the way HP/Agilent did it, and if you wanted HP/Agilent that's what you got.
So, in ascending order (from #3/third most important to #1/most important), we get:
3. New display and user interfaces are on the way - we should find a way to embrace and continually improve them.
2. More important than the display/UI (which is very imporant) is is signal aquisition and processing integrity.
1. More important than 1 or 2 is that the test equipment should do no harm to a responsible user or the user's DUT.
While they are at, they should maybe think about tightening up that loose +20mV spec on the voltage set. That's worse than Rigols.
- Some guys might be slightly more brand and model reverent than others :-DD
- Absolutely, in order to rely on and trust a piece of equipment the salient specs should be readily available (not hidden or made difficult to find); in turn, I think in the future - especially given the Internet and sites and forums such as this - that the occassional (or not so occassional) outlier spec or feature or problem that frustrates users (especially on an otherwise good product) will be surfaced more readily from the user community to the equipment providers and the better equipment providers will find a way to incorporate the feedback into a new release (as either new firmware/software or new hardware)
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I am amazed at how catty and fanboi'ish people get over test gear!
I like all the features Rigol is bringing to the market. They are raising the game, aren't they? And forcing the competition to increase value or get pushed aside. I really like my DP832. I think it's funny that people complain about the rotary knob and circular arrangement of numbers without having ever having used one (I got used to it quickly and now I like it maybe more than a traditional keypad - it's easier to hover my hand over the knob and make any adjustments I need). But the same folks who complain that the knob isn't as good as it could be justify other PSU's not even having knobs at all because they aren't gimmicky?
It's a giant pain in the ass to set OCP/OVP or even to set the voltage and current levels on my Agilent or Fluke supplies compared to the Rigol. I understand that engineers are infinitely picky, but some of the complaints aired seem to me to be akin to bitching about how the traction control in race mode in the new Ferrari 458 doesn't let you slide the ass end of the car enough before it kicks in, as you drive your 1994 Corvette :-DD
The power spike at turn on *is* a genuine concern and while it won't have any effect on the stuff I do, it shouldn't happen... on the other hand, has anyone checked their 832 to see if it does the same thing? Do we know something isn't wonky with Dave's unit? Or maybe his is better than most and others spike to 20V? Maybe it's not a design fault but something else?
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I am amazed at how catty and fanboi'ish people get over test gear!
I like all the features Rigol is bringing to the market. They are raising the game, aren't they? And forcing the competition to increase value or get pushed aside. I really like my DP832. I think it's funny that people complain about the rotary knob and circular arrangement of numbers without having ever having used one (I got used to it quickly and now I like it maybe more than a traditional keypad - it's easier to hover my hand over the knob and make any adjustments I need). But the same folks who complain that the knob isn't as good as it could be justify other PSU's not even having knobs at all because they aren't gimmicky?
It's a giant pain in the ass to set OCP/OVP or even to set the voltage and current levels on my Agilent or Fluke supplies compared to the Rigol. I understand that engineers are infinitely picky, but some of the complaints aired seem to me to be akin to bitching about how the traction control in race mode in the new Ferrari 458 doesn't let you slide the ass end of the car enough before it kicks in, as you drive your 1994 Corvette :-DD
The power spike at turn on *is* a genuine concern and while it won't have any effect on the stuff I do, it shouldn't happen... on the other hand, has anyone checked their 832 to see if it does the same thing? Do we know something isn't wonky with Dave's unit? Or maybe his is better than most and others spike to 20V? Maybe it's not a design fault but something else?
Hey Corp,
Agree with your observations and comments on the 832 user interface; I'm betting people who move from the "traditional" layout and features will come to see that not only is the 832 "ok" but that it offers a lot capabilities they wouldn't want to give up.
Hopefully someone can run some further tests on the spike thing; as you say, until we get some more info it could be a variety of things. Whatever it is, it would be great to isolate it/understand it and maybe also nice to hear something from Rigol about it.
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After all, what good is that voltage sense input if your spec is 0.6% on a typical 3.3V output.
Load Regulation Rate ±(Output Percentage + Offset)
Voltage <0.01%+2mV
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Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.
Would tend to agree with that. Anything else?
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After all, what good is that voltage sense input if your spec is 0.6% on a typical 3.3V output.
Load Regulation Rate ±(Output Percentage + Offset)
Voltage <0.01%+2mV
Here is the banner spec:
Programming Accuracy at 25°C ±5°C
Voltage: 0.05% + 20 mV, 0.05% + 20 mV, 0.1% + 5 mV
+ Current: 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.2% + 10 mA
Readback Accuracy at 25°C ±5°C
Voltage: 0.05% + 10 mV, 0.05% + 10 mV, 0.1% + 5 mV
Current: 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.2% + 10 mA
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The power spike at turn on *is* a genuine concern and while it won't have any effect on the stuff I do, it shouldn't happen... on the other hand, has anyone checked their 832 to see if it does the same thing? Do we know something isn't wonky with Dave's unit? Or maybe his is better than most and others spike to 20V? Maybe it's not a design fault but something else?
Looks like it is a fault by design, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118) Has anyone asked Rigol about it, if they don't watch Dave's channel, and if they know a quick fix for it?
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Looks like it is a fault by design, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118) Has anyone asked Rigol about it, if they don't watch Dave's channel, and if they know a quick fix for it?
The local rep has said he'll get Rigol to take a look at it. These Chinese companies cannot access youtube etc.
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After all, what good is that voltage sense input if your spec is 0.6% on a typical 3.3V output.
Load Regulation Rate ±(Output Percentage + Offset)
Voltage <0.01%+2mV
Here is the banner spec:
Programming Accuracy at 25°C ±5°C
Voltage: 0.05% + 20 mV, 0.05% + 20 mV, 0.1% + 5 mV
+ Current: 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.2% + 10 mA
Readback Accuracy at 25°C ±5°C
Voltage: 0.05% + 10 mV, 0.05% + 10 mV, 0.1% + 5 mV
Current: 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.15% + 4 mA, 0.2% + 10 mA
Sense is not for Readback accuracy nor Programming accuracy.
Why you answer with these? When there is load regulation, one important parameter of regulated precision power supply.
Sense is part of regulation loop.
It is for feedbac real voltage in point what is important to regulate. Now this PSU regulate only its output terminals (if internal senses are connected directly to terminals in front panel).
Do we really need talk what is external "sense" function.
Of course it is not important if we only look PSU output terminals. In normal practical use after terminals are leads to load. Im not interested PSU terminals. I'm interest what my Load "see". (if do something what need care this)
Of course if load is constant there is not so much need for sense. Voltage drop in leads is meaningless becouse IF need accurate voltage it can measure from load terminals with external meter when there is this load current.
Situation is very different if there is variable load and need keep voltage constant independent of load variations. And PSU what do not have feedback from this point is blind.
Example: If there is 1A variation in load and we have 1m cable (total 2m wire) 1.0 mm2 copper wire there is around 0.033V drop. If our Vout in PSU output terminal is 3.3V without load change, after our cable variation is around 0.033V.
1% is now quite far away from 0.01% load regulation.
And 1mm2 copper is not very common. Many times test leads are less. How about if wire lenght from supply to load is more, and current variations is more.
Of course if 1m distance need 100mm2 copper rods for keep 0.01% load regualtion for 1A changes, then no need external senses if this load regualtion is important keep this very low level. Totally other question is who need this.
Of course this kind of things are not relevant if load is bulb or some battery operated equipment or something other simplest things for PSU.
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Sense is not for Readback accuracy nor Programming accuracy.
Why you answer with these?
Because it determines the basic accuracy of the power supply!
Forget about sense or no sense, I'm talking about the basic DC accuracy display of the power supply, which someone complained was not very good on the Rigol. I was just showing that it's no better on the Agilent.
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(...)
Forget about sense or no sense, I'm talking about the basic DC accuracy display of the power supply, which someone complained was not very good on the Rigol. I was just showing that it's no better on the Agilent.
Are you comparing specs of the E3631A versus the DP832? For the 'Annual Accuracy, 25+/- 5C' of the DP832, they seem to be almost the same as to those of the E3631A, once you include the data for the third, lower voltage rail.
The only(!) difference in their line and load regulation seem to be Rigol spelling 'line' as 'linear'. I will go as far as saying these two PSUs are amazingly similar in their specs, given the nearly twenty years of progress we have witnessed since the E3631A hit the market.
Am I missing something here?
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Agilent E3631A:
Programming:
+6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
Readback:
+6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
----
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Rigol DP832/A:
Programming:
+5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
-30: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
Readback:
+5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
-30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
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Am I missing something here?
Yes, the price difference.
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Am I missing something here?
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Agilent E3631A:
Programming:
+6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
Readback:
+6V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 10mA
+25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
-25V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV, Current 0.15% + 4mA
----
Annually over 12 months, 25+/-5C, Rigol DP832/A:
Programming:
+5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV 10mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA 10mA
-30: Voltage 0.05% + 20mV 10mV, Current 0.2% + 5mA10mA
Readback:
+5V: Voltage 0.1% + 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
+30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
-30V: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV 5mV, Current 0.15% + 5mA
Yes... correct specs as edited in purple ;) I only checked the Rigol specs
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So, in ascending order (from #3/third most important to #1/most important), we get:
3. New displays and user interfaces are on the way - we should find a way to embrace and continually improve them.
2. More important than the display/UI (which is very important) is signal aquisition and processing integrity.
1. More important than 1 or 2 is that test equipment should do no harm to a responsible user or the user's DUT.
I agree. A lab power supply should not kill the DUT. I learned it the hard way. I'm sceptical about the power on spikes. Rigol should fix this.
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Looks like it is a fault by design, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/msg278118/#msg278118) Has anyone asked Rigol about it, if they don't watch Dave's channel, and if they know a quick fix for it?
The local rep has said he'll get Rigol to take a look at it. These Chinese companies cannot access youtube etc.
Just some general info: if you make a video with a bug, upload it to youku.com, I got a reply from Rigol that they will show it to the R/D department. After I first got no reply due to the youtube link.
A youku video is worth a 1000 Chinese symbols ;)
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Displaying the values for all channels at the same time.
Would tend to agree with that. Anything else?
From looking at Daves video, i think Rigol got it almost right. As first time user he had no problem to use it. That's a good sign. Compare that to the Atten PSU.
The numeric keypad should be a standard layout. CC mode should be signalled with dedicated LEDs or a different color on the channel on/off button back light. The binding posts should be arranged that the two independent channels can be connect to a symmetrical supply with a standard 19mm shorting bar.
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Haven't done anything with it, or anything else, I've been very sick for a week now.
Hey Dave, I hope you get well soon! :)
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The numeric keypad should be a standard layout. CC mode should be signalled with dedicated LEDs or a different color on the channel on/off button back light. The binding posts should be arranged that the two independent channels can be connect to a symmetrical supply with a standard 19mm shorting bar.
I think, with all the knowldege and experience of the members of this forum we should design an eevblog lab PSU. Lab PSUs are a hot topic for everyone, for beginners up to professional EEs and T&M junkies :-)
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I think, with all the knowldege and experience of the members of this forum we should design an eevblog lab PSU. Lab PSUs are a hot topic for everyone, for beginners up to professional EEs and T&M junkies :-)
... designed by the EEVblog user committee ;D
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Dave did this already, interesting video about the schematic:
EEVblog #259 - PSU Rev C Schematic - Part 12 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XroH4X78qTY#ws)
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Dave did this already, interesting video about the schematic:
I was thinking of a standard lab PSU, something with 2 * 0-30V at 3A/5A and 0-12V at 3A for example.
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Ha, right, good luck coming to a consensus on the design of that one....geez :-)
I've followed this thread and I have to say it both amazes and amuses me.
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Am I missing something here?
Yes, the price difference.
OK. Was thinking of your 0.6% comment from earlier in the thread. If you use the +6V rail on the E3631A to generate 3.3V, then the maximum deviation I get is 0.25%.
Yes... correct specs as edited in purple ;) I only checked the Rigol specs
I have double checked my numbers. Won't rule out I have overlooked something, but it seems there may be more than one set of Rigol's specs in circulation then. My numbers for the E3631A is from page 16 of the service manual, dated April 2000. The DP832/A specs I used is from page 4 of the the DP800 datasheet file downloaded yesterday from rigol.com. The file is named DP800_DataSheet_EN.pdf, dated August 2013 (date on bottom of last page).
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PS and just to mess with the heads of some of the contributors to this thread: I am rather seriously thinking about buying a DS2072 for my home lab. Just because I am critical of a manufacturer, it doesn't follow I see the world in Black and Whlte.
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I have double checked my numbers. Won't rule out I have overlooked something, but it seems there may be more than one set of Rigol's specs in circulation then. My numbers for the E3631A is from page 16 of the service manual, dated April 2000. The DP832/A specs I used is from page 4 of the the DP800 datasheet file downloaded yesterday from rigol.com. The file is named DP800_DataSheet_EN.pdf, dated August 2013 (date on bottom of last page).
Not trying to be a jerk but I checked that pdf and the corrected numbers I posted are what are on that pdf.
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PS and just to mess with the heads of some of the contributors to this thread: I am rather seriously thinking about buying a DS2072 for my home lab. Just because I am critical of a manufacturer, it doesn't follow I see the world in Black and Whlte.
Don't overestimate your influence on people's heads here. I, for one, couldn't possibly care less about any of your buying decisions.
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Not trying to be a jerk but I checked that pdf and the corrected numbers I posted are what are on that pdf.
Providing constructive criticism, public peer review, plus pointing out potential mistakes and errors is not being a jerk. It is the foundation of science.
...and I still cannot see it, please see attachment. Time for some new glasses here? :-//
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You don't need glasses but I looked in 4 places from the site and they all have the numbers I posted. The second two links take a real long time to load but they do work.
Main site on the specifications tab here (http://www.rigolna.com/products/dc-power-supplies/dp800/dp832/)
Data sheet pdf here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-01c1/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)
Spec sheet pdf here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-01c9/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)
Owners manual pdf page 107 here (http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-01c5/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf)
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You don't need glasses but I looked in 4 places from the site and they all have the numbers I posted.(...)
Actually I see two sets of different specs in your links, both different from the values I posted earlier. The numbers I provided gives different specs between the low and the pair of high rails. The data sheet in question is linked from here (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DP832/document/?act=view&itemid=596), and as mentioned is dated August 2013, being the most recent data sheet I could find.
From your links I got these sets:
Rigol NA homepage:
Programming: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.05% + 5mV Current 0.15% + 5mA
Data sheet, March 2013:
Programming: Voltage 0.05% + 10mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.05% + 5mV Current 0.15% + 5mA
Spec sheet (copy from manual below):
Programming: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Owner's manual March 2013:
Programming: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
Readback: Voltage 0.1% + 20mV Current 0.2% + 10mA
No differences between any of the rails, apparently. A total of 3 different specifications, so presumably the specs changed over time as the product was being readied for full scale production.
----
Edit: I checked the most recent data sheet for the E3631A, publication 5968-9726EN dated April 18th 2013. The values I provided earlier from 2000 still seem to be current.
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I think you may be looking at the DP831 specs on page 105 instead of the DP832 specs on page 107.
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I think you may be looking at the DP831 specs on page 105 instead of the DP832 specs on page 107.
Yep, you are right, I was. :palm:
So there are only two different specs for the DP832 out there. The one from March you provided, and the one from August I wrote earlier.
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I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact. In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron). Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software. Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.
Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?
We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point! May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps? Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.
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I got way too many things on my plate to sit around and debate what I said because it's just a fact. In the old days aka the 1980s and before, people used their Brains and minimal equipment because real lab equipment was for corporations or the super rich engineers (an Oxymoron). Today most of you guys just sit around just playing with the equipment and checking out features and Bling and have no idea how to Fix anything or design anything unless as some one said before you can feed it into a ADC and work with it in software. Unfortunately Daves Video reviews just keep stroking this passion and really don't help any of you to get more into electronics itself but instead turn you guys into equipment aficionados.
Some people like test equipment, what's the problem with that?
If you don't care about test equipment, you don't have to watch the test equipment videos, nor read the threads that are specifically about test equipment.
If you have nothing useful to contribute to this test equipment thread, then why are you here complaining? Why waste your time?
We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point! May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps? Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.
So each person should buy only what they need, not what brings them happiness or pleasure? Other than test gear, what does that apply to? Should I buy steak or just bread and potatoes? A sports car, or just the cheapest Toyota they make? A house with an extra room or just the bare minimum for the minimum objects I need to live?
What's wrong with someone being into test gear? I am into watches. I have about 60 watches. I just like them. Old, new, mechanical, automatic, eco, digital, cheap, expensive, plastic, metal, ones I made myself, ones I had made, ones I got at yard sales, and everything in between. Why should people not indulge their desires if they have the means and desire to do so? Are people neglecting to feed their kids because they want that new DSO? :scared:
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I have to say that the mentioned Agilent E3631A (http://www.home.agilent.com/en/pd-836433-pn-E3631A/80w-triple-output-power-supply-6v-5a-25v-1a) is a perfect example for what I call eye-cancer gear. In 2013 offerinbg a product in this price range with such an atrocious display is in my opinion a crime. In the 21st century a good multi-color high-res display and some nice layout & software design is not too much to ask for.
But also the Rigol is in some aspects more of a they-tried-but-failed product in terms of usability: true, the monochrome themes are not so bad really, at least well readable, but what is the point in having a multi-color display, if you just use one color in various brightness? I think these themes should be upgraded with some colors for warnings and and some additional info (e.g. current/voltage limit reached), and in addition they should design some "modern" ui elements that take full usage of state-of-the-art fonts and gui design. Clearly in the sister product DP832A they tried to do that, but ultimately failed, because the three display sections for the outputs are not really have-a-quick-look friendly. And they I don't even want to mention the completely botched numeric keys and rotary knob. Whoever came up with that should be sentenced to having to use such a keypad for the rest of his life.
All in all I think it's very refreshing for the market when new and feature-rich products get released by companies such as Rigol which now clearly have evolved from the entry/hobbyist segment into the (semi-)professional region. Many of the older professional big players have just kind of slept for the last 20/30 years when it comes to product design and usability. Today everything is basically done in software (and this often better than any hardware could ever do), so I think the customers have a right to demand products which utilize their capabilities to the full extend.
Yes Dave this post is a perfect example of what EE equipment is all about, how many colors can the display show, better looking UI's with more menu features :-DD And oh the older Agilent sucks because it does not have a Blinged out display |O
Well at least the companies that can create the most high tech looking displays are now making money, who cares how well the equipment works, just so long as it looks good ::)
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What's wrong with someone being into test gear? I am into watches. I have about 60 watches. I just like them. Old, new, mechanical, automatic, eco, digital, cheap, expensive, plastic, metal, ones I made myself, ones I had made, ones I got at yard sales, and everything in between. Why should people not indulge their desires if they have the means and desire to do so? Are people neglecting to feed their kids because they want that new DSO? :scared:
You understand how to read the Time, Right?
Why collect a hundred books if you can't read or 60 watches if you don't know how to tell time? Why buy test equipment if you really don't know how to use it?
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We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point! May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps? Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.
What business of it is yours if someone has a 20K worth of gear to muck around with opamps?
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We all like Test equipment Dave thats not the point! May I ask you what is the point of someone owning $20,000 worth of test gear if all they are doing with it is running 555 timers and basic Op-Amps? Thats the bloody problem with all of this and below I will qoute what I consider a classic post in this thread that sums it up completely.
May I ask you what is the point of someone owning 555 timers and basic op amps if all they are doing with it could be done with a fistful of transistors?
May I ask you what is the point of someone collecting stamps if they're not going to use them to send mail?
May I ask you what is the point of someone bothering with hobbies at all if they could contribute as much to society as a whole by sitting around scratching their ass?
Because it gives them pleasure. They like it. |O
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What's wrong with someone being into test gear? I am into watches. I have about 60 watches. I just like them. Old, new, mechanical, automatic, eco, digital, cheap, expensive, plastic, metal, ones I made myself, ones I had made, ones I got at yard sales, and everything in between. Why should people not indulge their desires if they have the means and desire to do so? Are people neglecting to feed their kids because they want that new DSO? :scared:
You understand how to read the Time, Right?
Why collect a hundred books if you can't read or 60 watches if you don't know how to tell time? Why buy test equipment if you really don't know how to use it?
I bought a DP832. I have maybe 5 or 6 other power supplies ranging from a couple of really nice Agilent units to some Mastech cheap-o ones.
Fact is, 90% of the features on the DP832 I won't use. You seem to be complaining about that... BUT, the ones I will use, I find to be very good on the Rigol. For example, being able to see all readouts at the same time is much better than having to flip back and forth like on my Fluke. Being able to punch in a number and press a single button to set volts/amps makes the Rigol much easier to use than my Agilent supply. Having the V/A/W read-back is better than having to do the math in my head (or hook up the scope) like I would have to with the Agilent.
I will never use the graph-over-time features, nor will I save lots of presents or spend much time changing the color of the screen. Does that mean it was a mistake for me to buy this supply - in your opinion - even though it is easier to use and works better for the features I will actually use?
That seems incredibly arrogant to me. Some of the stuff we make is out of various exotic woods. I cut them on the CNC machines. I've occasionally had woodworking types act mildly offended that we use CNC machines to cut wood (and we get amazing results), as if somehow straining with shitty equipment and using a hand saw and carving knife is superior to tossing a piece of wood in a CNC machine and walking away while it cuts a perfect part every time.
If you're into making the most out of the least, then more power to you - I just don't get why others who choose a different path are wrong. It's not like the guys buying the newest equipment are getting irritated that people still use PSU's from the 1990's... the angst seems to be one-sided in the opposite direction.
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That seems incredibly arrogant to me. Some of the stuff we make is out of various exotic woods. I cut them on the CNC machines. I've occasionally had woodworking types act mildly offended that we use CNC machines to cut wood
:-DD
These types are funny, aren't they? Sometime, I want to post a design for a tube amp on an audio forum, with both plate and filament powered by DC-DC converters just for shits and giggles.... and lots of SPICE simulation...
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These types are funny, aren't they? Sometime, I want to post a design for a tube amp on an audio forum, with both plate and filament powered by DC-DC converters just for shits and giggles.... and lots of SPICE simulation...
How about a class D tube amp, powered by the DC-DC converters? :-DD
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Ah yes, must be class D.
At least that'll give them magnetics in the signal path, they seem to like that ::)
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That seems incredibly arrogant to me. Some of the stuff we make is out of various exotic woods. I cut them on the CNC machines. I've occasionally had woodworking types act mildly offended that we use CNC machines to cut wood
:-DD
These types are funny, aren't they? Sometime, I want to post a design for a tube amp on an audio forum, with both plate and filament powered by DC-DC converters just for shits and giggles.... and lots of SPICE simulation...
Funny story - a few years ago a certain microcontroller company was trying to push how many varied industries they were in. They have a "celeb" who is their face on Youtube and in the magazine they send to customers. So my FAE wants to bring this celeb by our shop to show him the "cool" stuff we do (that is a bit non-traditional for microcontrollers I guess). So the guy shows up with a bunch of suits from corporate and some lickspittles who were going to formulate the article for the next edition of their magazine. Everyone (except me and said celeb) seemed to get a bit frustrated that he has zero interest in talking electronics, and just wanted to go out to the shop and check out the CNC machines. He's ooh-ing and aah-ing over some of the ingenuous fixtures we use to make various parts quickly and accurately, and he's telling me about some machine he built in his basement (probably using leather straps and a water wheel) that lets him cut bowls really thin but without danger of cutting through the side.
So I take him over to this monster of a lathe we have and use for cutting blocks of exotic wood (ebony, purpleheart, tamaring, wenge) - they go in squares and come out cylinders with all the holes drilled ready to accept LED light fixtures.
He watched a couple of cycles run and sort of got this look on his face like someone shoved a lemon up his ass, and grumpily told me that it's unfortunate that such special wood was doomed to be butchered on a robotic machine without the loving touch of a craftsman's hands.
The meeting ended shortly after and there was no story in their magazine :o
My first experience with the wood snob. I had no idea.
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look on his face like someone shoved a lemon up his ass
You should know that this phrase made me snort coffee. It hurts. Screw you.
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look on his face like someone shoved a lemon up his ass
Now that has made my week, just in time for the weekend.
May I ask you what is the point of someone bothering with hobbies at all if they could contribute as much to society as a whole by sitting around scratching their ass?
Because it gives them pleasure. They like it. |O
Everyone should have a hobby that tickles their interest.
However if you get an itch in that region, sometimes the only thing that will alleviate it is a damn good scratch! hopefully not in public. :P. The contribution to society ??.. a happier person :-//
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True, happiness is a contribution to society. I meant contributions other than happiness! Of course, sitting around scratching my ass makes me happy too... :P
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An interesting little comparison of the DP832 to several Agilent's, 2 old HP's and 2 old Power Designs. This chart is annual accuracy of set voltage in percent of value from 1mV to 30V. On the DP832 I am using the readout accuracy which is better than its programming accuracy. They are listed in roughly least to best from top to bottom on the legend. Roughly because it depends what range of voltage you are comparing. The Agilent b29XXA is a >$5000.00 SMU
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-509-rigol-832-lab-power-supply/?action=dlattach;attach=58418)
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my question would be what confidence interval those accuracies are based on
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How did you measure this? It is not plausible that all 8 power supplies have a buckle at 0.01V, 0.1V and 1V.
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I'll say one thing for this Rigol power supply, it certainly gets the conversation going :)
I never thought something as 'boring' as a power supply would release such emotions in people. Rigol may have been very clever in their design as its profile in the marketplace will be raised by forums such as this.
When it comes down to it, in my humble lab I want the following from my power supplies:
1. A well regulated DC voltage
2. The ability to set a constant current
3. Up to 30V with at least 3A capability
4. Low noise levels on the output i.e. it hasn't got a load of crap coming out of it !
5. Easy to set and forget :)
Super accuracy of the built in meter ? Nah, I always use my trusty Fluke 87 III or other quality meters to ensure that the voltage and current are correct. I have never trusted built in meters since the days when PSU's just had cheap moving coil meters. I would rather the manufacturer spent the money on the unseen elements of the design. When you think about the cost of a Fluke quality meter, how likely is it that a PSU manufacturer will spend that sort of money on their internal voltage and current meter design ?
My needs are simple compared to some but I think the flashy and weird Rigol would get on my nerves so I will stick with the standard (boring) beige PSU with its single output, clear displays and easy settings.
I feel sure the Rigol will have its followers though.
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How did you measure this? It is not plausible that all 8 power supplies have a buckle at 0.01V, 0.1V and 1V.
That buckle is the affect of being on a logarithmic vertical scale, its not really there. The only real buckles on that chart is the 29XXA SMU which has different specs for different ranges.
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How did you measure this? It is not plausible that all 8 power supplies have a buckle at 0.01V, 0.1V and 1V.
My understanding is that this is not measured performance, but the instrument's accuracy specification at 1y.
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How did you measure this? It is not plausible that all 8 power supplies have a buckle at 0.01V, 0.1V and 1V.
My understanding is that this is not measured performance, but the instrument's accuracy specification at 1y.
Correct, just comparing the published specifications.
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Super accuracy of the built in meter ? Nah, I always use my trusty Fluke 87 III or other quality meters to ensure that the voltage and current are correct.
I regard good and reliable accuracy of set values and display as a big plus precisely because it means I don't have to connect a meter to check voltage or break into the connection to check current.
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Super accuracy of the built in meter ? Nah, I always use my trusty Fluke 87 III or other quality meters to ensure that the voltage and current are correct. I have never trusted built in meters since the days when PSU's just had cheap moving coil meters. I would rather the manufacturer spent the money on the unseen elements of the design. When you think about the cost of a Fluke quality meter, how likely is it that a PSU manufacturer will spend that sort of money on their internal voltage and current meter design ?
Several of the PS's on the graph are more accurate than the 87-5 just by setting the voltage value (no read back necessary)
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Hi Dave,
Get well soon!!!!!!
Whats about yor bench?
On this video it look like that the racks above your bench
are much more empty than they were before.
Regards
Ronald
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Yes Dave this post is a perfect example of what EE equipment is all about, how many colors can the display show, better looking UI's with more menu features :-DD And oh the older Agilent sucks because it does not have a Blinged out display |O
Well at least the companies that can create the most high tech looking displays are now making money, who cares how well the equipment works, just so long as it looks good ::)
It would hope that you just came up with that interpretation out of spite for me daring to criticise your holy Agilent product, and not because you cannot read (which would be a shame at your supposed age). In any case, i shall try to spell it out in simpler words: The Agilent PSU is no doubt a professional and high-grade piece of test equipment, BUT that doesn't excuse them for the awful display they saddled their product with. Come on, a triple output PSU that can only display one set of voltage and current - that's what I call stupid |O, no matter if 1980 or 2013 (especially for the price of more than 1.000 EUR / 1.400 USD). In 2013 though, I consider such a display also as a CRIME, just so they can stay with a 20-30 year old design, and not spend some $40 in hardware plus some software development.
Also, if you had read carefully, you would have realized that also the Rigol unit doesn't get much praise from me, BUT I do consider it s (semi-)professional unit. Also the big names released some products with potentially dangerous faults, which is no excuse, but still makes the product itself a good deal - if you know what you are getting. To sum up, especially the old crowd of manufacturers often try to get away with providing products that lie far below the 2013 possibilities (for the price), so I do consider it a good thing if some new players force them to upgrade their products.
If we all would be happy with the looks and restrictions from 30-years ago, we all might still live in caves and hunt our food with stones - because spears would be too modern. :-DD
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Someone updated an old multimeter with a modern display as a DIY project:
http://hackaday.com/2013/08/23/upgrading-a-fluke-multimeter-with-a-masterful-addition/ (http://hackaday.com/2013/08/23/upgrading-a-fluke-multimeter-with-a-masterful-addition/)
Should be possible with old Agilent PSUs, too. In the worst case do it like in the hackaday project: scan all relevant pins of the main CPU, and then display at least the last selected voltage for a channel, when the user changes to another channel.
If you have too much time, reverse engineer the firmware and create a better one, with a better display.
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An interesting little comparison of the DP832 to several Agilent's, 2 old HP's and 2 old Power Designs. This chart is annual accuracy of set voltage in percent of value from 1mV to 30V. On the DP832 I am using the readout accuracy which is better than its programming accuracy. They are listed in roughly least to best from top to bottom on the legend. Roughly because it depends what range of voltage you are comparing. The Agilent b29XXA is a >$5000.00 SMU
Just realized the 6114/5A's performance compared to others, thanks for the chart Robrenz. :-+
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http://hackaday.com/2013/08/23/upgrading-a-fluke-multimeter-with-a-masterful-addition/ (http://hackaday.com/2013/08/23/upgrading-a-fluke-multimeter-with-a-masterful-addition/)
a 2.2? 320×240 LCD display that is a vast improvement on the old stock seven-segment numerical display.
Yeah, cool hack. But how is this a "vast improvement" ? :-//
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Today I got my Siglent SPD3303D. I can try to do a review of it, if anyone is interested. But my German accent is terrible, so I would write an article with measurements etc. on my website, and maybe record a short video for the user interface.
My first impressions so far is a thumb sideways :-\ I can set the voltage in 1V steps with the rotary encoder, or I can push the "fine" button, and then I can change the voltage in 0.01V steps (20 steps per full turn). No acceleration, no way to select 0.1V steps (or at least I didn't find it). But the maximum current can be changed in 0.1A or 0.01A steps. If I turn the knob too fast, steps are missed until it is actually slower than turning the knob more slowly. Well, I can live with it, because I don't change the voltage that often anyway, more often the maximum current.
Then I tried to install the software, because one of my planned applications is to control it via USB from my PC. Well, I started the setup file from the CD-ROM and got this dialog:
(http://i.imgur.com/DSKTbAM.png)
Turned out to be the language setting for the installer, I could select "English" in the dropdown box and the first button might mean "install", because after this the software was installed. When I tried to start the installed software, I got an error because of missing VISA32.dll. Looks like they implemented the software with LabVIEW, and tested it just on their own PC, where the library is installed. Didn't found anything mentioned about it in the manual. But I found it the library on the NI website (the runtime environment is free), so after installing it, the software worked. In the software I can change the voltage by entering a number. But I have to click the "Set" button, just the enter key doesn't change it.
A quick measurement of the power-up behavior with my scope shows no problems, and the outputs are turned off until enabled again, as with the Rigol.
BTW: When I try to change the voltage above the maximum 32V on the device, it says "Voltage settings Overspray!". English is not my native language, but this doesn't sound right :)
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Ha, right, good luck coming to a consensus on the design of that one....geez :-)
I've followed this thread and I have to say it both amazes and amuses me.
The best and worst thing about anything interesting is the community that surrounds it.
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[..]
My first impressions so far is a thumb sideways :-\ I can set the voltage in 1V steps with the rotary encoder, or I can push the "fine" button, and then I can change the voltage in 0.01V steps (20 steps per full turn). No acceleration, no way to select 0.1V steps (or at least I didn't find it). But the maximum current can be changed in 0.1A or 0.01A steps. If I turn the knob too fast, steps are missed until it is actually slower than turning the knob more slowly. Well, I can live with it, because I don't change the voltage that often anyway, more often the maximum current.
[..]
Doesn't sound terribly convenient... I have SPD3303S model (the higher resolution one) and it adjusts in 0.1V steps by default and 1mV in "Fine" mode. The same with current settings. Also, there seems to be some kind of encoder velocity algorithm implemented in mine so cranking it all the way across the scale doesn't take really that long. Mine's firmware version is 1.01.01.01.03R1 and hardware version is V1.0.
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Doesn't sound terribly convenient... I have SPD3303S model (the higher resolution one) and it adjusts in 0.1V steps by default and 1mV in "Fine" mode. The same with current settings. Also, there seems to be some kind of encoder velocity algorithm implemented in mine so cranking it all the way across the scale doesn't take really that long. Mine's firmware version is 1.01.01.01.03R1 and hardware version is V1.0.
Sounds good, maybe then they'll fix it for my model, too. I don't need to change the voltage that often with one turn from 0V to 20V, but 0.1V steps would be very useful, to check brown-out limits of microcontrollers etc.
The firmware on the device says 1.01.01.01.05 (they do plan really many many revisions and sub-sub-sub-revisions :-DD ), and hardware version V1.1. There is a label on the CD which says 1.01.01.01.06, but I can neither find a firmware update on the CD, nor on the website.
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a 2.2? 320×240 LCD display that is a vast improvement on the old stock seven-segment numerical display.
Yeah, cool hack. But how is this a "vast improvement" ? :-//
Yeah, they tend to exaggerate sometimes. I think unlike in this forum, their readers are mostly hobbyists.
BTW, they featured some of my hobby projects, too, like this one: http://hackaday.com/2012/08/01/4004-rom-emulator-allows-fast-development-on-slow-computers/ (http://hackaday.com/2012/08/01/4004-rom-emulator-allows-fast-development-on-slow-computers/)
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But back to the topic: Dave, do you plan to do a more detailed review of the Rigol 832 (after you got some response about the power-up bug) and a tear down? And maybe for some readers it would be interesting to see how it can be interfaced with a PC. In my last freelancer programmer job I helped writing software for initializing and testing some hardware, and a programmable power supply with voltage and current measurement could really help to automate such init and testing procedures, and maybe even document it in a database for each device, as required by some regulations and ISO certifications.
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BTW: When I try to change the voltage above the maximum 32V on the device, it says "Voltage settings Overspray!". English is not my native language, but this doesn't sound right :)
It may not sound right, but it certainly sounds funny! :-DD
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BTW: When I try to change the voltage above the maximum 32V on the device, it says "Voltage settings Overspray!". English is not my native language, but this doesn't sound right :)
It may not sound right, but it certainly sounds funny! :-DD
This is nothing new.
http://www.wetalk.tw/thread-5787-1-1.html (http://www.wetalk.tw/thread-5787-1-1.html)
Machine translation at it's best:
http://www.fotopu.com/img/1/374556.jpg (http://www.fotopu.com/img/1/374556.jpg)
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Yes Dave this post is a perfect example of what EE equipment is all about, how many colors can the display show, better looking UI's with more menu features :-DD And oh the older Agilent sucks because it does not have a Blinged out display |O
Well at least the companies that can create the most high tech looking displays are now making money, who cares how well the equipment works, just so long as it looks good ::)
i'm all with you when it comes to unnecessary eye candy like aero translucent window-title bars or compiz wobbly windows… thats all of no use.
but the DP832 in my opinion just uses state of the art display technology to show *relevant* data (i would'nt even mind a little beep on certain events - like when a channel goes to cc-mode). the DP832A is another story - dave mentioned that.
today there is no need to squeeze all data in one line of 7-segment bricks, thats it.
Today I got my Siglent SPD3303D....
My first impressions so far is a thumb sideways :-\
too sad :/
but ok, the third channel also doesn't have an on-screen readout (amps/watts), so your experience with the unit just makes it even *more* of no-go for me.
if dave manages to do a teardown of the DP832, maybe including a more thorough test, i'll buy that one if there are no further hidden bugs.
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Turned out to be the language setting for the installer, I could select "English" in the dropdown box and the first button might mean "install", because after this the software was installed. When I tried to start the installed software, I got an error because of missing VISA32.dll.
I have the Siglent SDG1000 series waveform generator and the Rigol DS2000 series scope, and both of them implemented their software using the VISA driver and both require me to download it from National Instruments myself. Good news: Although the NI website looks like it requires registration, you can type in garbage values and it will accept them. (as of last night, anyway.)
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I have the Siglent SDG1000 series waveform generator and the Rigol DS2000 series scope, and both of them implemented their software using the VISA driver and both require me to download it from National Instruments myself. Good news: Although the NI website looks like it requires registration, you can type in garbage values and it will accept them. (as of last night, anyway.)
Too bad VISA software is monstrous in size and makes itself a little too much at home on my PC for my liking. It feels like it's designed to be run on a dedicated PC, with all the services running in background, checking for new versions at OS startup, etc. I can understand it (it's intended as a part of quite specialized setup, after all) but as a hobbyist who'd run this once in a blue moon, I don't feel like running it on my general purpose, everyday use laptop. Hmm, maybe I should setup a VM for that stuff.
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In the user manual for DP832 Rigol has a TIP:
When powering on the Instrument after powering off it, make sure that the time interval between the two operations is greater than 5s.
Having seen the tear down I expect this 5 seconds will be to let the Micky Mouse ear NTC surge suppression thermistor cool down a bit so the toroidal transformer inrush doesn't blow fuses or weld switch contacts.
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I've done a review of my Siglent SPD3303D. Unfortunately a power on/off spike problem on one channel, too, and some minor problems which could be fixed by a firmware update, but the rest does what it should do:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-spd3303d-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-spd3303d-review/)
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I've done a look of my Rigol D832 about spikes without any load at start-up (main switch off-on). Mine 832 is revised edition.
The channel 2 & 3 has a same behavior with almost 400mV minus depth. The channel 1 is the only with different behavior and pattern (spikes almost 600mV).
Look at my attachment photo for details.
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This is nothing new.
http://www.wetalk.tw/thread-5787-1-1.html (http://www.wetalk.tw/thread-5787-1-1.html)
Forgive my OT post, but ROTFL. :-DD :-DD
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I've done a look of my Rigol D832 about spikes without any load at start-up (main switch off-on). Mine 832 is revised edition.
The channel 2 & 3 has a same behavior with almost 400mV minus depth. The channel 1 is the only with different behavior and pattern (spikes almost 600mV).
Look at my attachment photo for details.
Just got mine 2 days ago and did the off-on test and got a spike a couple of times around 2.2V peak on channel-1. It does not hit this level consistently.
I don't like the looks of this. Hopefully this is a qualified reason for return to Tequip.
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I had an LED connected directly to channel 1 as i was playing with current limiting and found that the spike was occasionally enough to light the LED.
It was directly connected, no resistors.
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Spoke to my vendor about voltage spike. Tequipment U.S. said there is a recall. I was sent an RMA form to fill out. Just waiting for it to come back - typically 24-48 hours. :-BROKE::phew:
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Hi
I got my DP832A Power Supply delivered. I did some inital tests and got the following results:
no load SET Readback Measured
CH1 1.0000 0.9840 1.0015
CH2 1.0000 1.0043 0.9993
CH3 1.0000 1.0012 1.0005
CH1 5.0000 4.9845 5.0020
CH2 5.0000 5.0023 4.9980
CH3 5.0000 5.0014 5.0010
CH1 30.0000 29.9872 30.0100
CH2 30.0000 30.0010 30.0000
while CH3 is bang on, CH2 is ok, CH1 seems to be fairly off. I measured with a Agilent U1241B and had a quick chat with Rigol support. Basically they said, the Agilent can not be used to verify the output and readbyk since it is way to unacurate, I would need at least a 6.5digit Multimeter. Asking if I just should recallibrate it they recommended not to recallibrate it since it could get worse.
So what would you do? Keep it and tweak it or send it back and hope to replacement psu will perform better?
CH1 is around 17mV off. If I set the output to 17mV, readbyck shows zero. At 18mV it flickers between zero and one mV. To me, it looks like an offset since this is allmost the same over the full range.
I like the device quite a lot, the hello-kittyness is not great, beside that, I measured the current readback which is absolutely bang on on all three channels, which also is very important to me.
Cheers
Linus
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Hi Linus, my take is if CH2 and 3 readback fairly close to setting, then CH1 is off, even with your HH DMM. You don't need a 6.5 digit DMM to make the adjustment, however I'd let the unit burn-in, by leaving it on for > 24 hours without a load [ 3-7 days preferred] before you consider adjusting it.
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Thanks for your thought, appreciate! Is there a how-to calibrate the DP832? Since the menu is all but not not self explanatory and the manual does not say anything about.
Linus
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Sorry for bumping this old thread, but does anyone know the part number for the display on the Rigol DP832. Maybe even the manufactor and the size of the screen??
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Re. DP832 Power Supply
Does the 1.03c Keygen still work on the DP832? I understand that 1. Firmware 01.06.00 should be installed, 2. Install the keys, and then 3. Upgrade the firmware to 01.08.00. Does this still work Ok?
I seem to recall that someone said they lost everything including the metering accuracy.
Is there anything to this, and if so, can it be prevented?
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I want to mention that the ARRAY 3710A (150/200W Max.)or 3711A Electronic Load (300W) is great for testing the individual outputs of the DP832 Power Supply. It of course is designed for analyzing the operation of any Power Supply, as well as the Discharge Characteristics of Batteries. For information how to use it's software with Windows 7 refer to the following: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/array-electronic-loads/msg376531/#msg376531 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/array-electronic-loads/msg376531/#msg376531)