EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown

[EEVblog]

An impromptu teardown on the Emona stand at the Electronex trade show, of the Picoscope 5000 flexible resolution USB oscilloscope, with a small crowd of EEVblog viewers watching on.
Also uses the Tagarno HD ZIP 40x digital magnifier.
http://www.tagarno.dk/en/frontpage/products/inspection/home/product-pages/products/digital-magnification-systems/magnus-hd-zip.aspx
https://secure1.bluecentral.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=84
http://www.picotech.com/document/datasheets/PicoScope5000Series.pdf
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/DataSheetASD5020HS_v2.0.pdf
http://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmc-ad1520.pdf
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass-high-tech/2011/01/hittite-microwave-buys-arctic-silicon-devices.html

[iceisfun]

That hdmi microscope was pretty awesome, how much do those go for?

[EEVblog]

That hdmi microscope was pretty awesome, how much do those go for?

About $3500AU for that model I was told. That's with the fixed lens. Another model has interchangeable lenses.

[free_electron]

-boink- for 179$ you can get a sony HD camera with 40x zoom lens that has an HDMI output .... and it will record to memory stick as well..
maybe an idea for a home project.... make your own hires video microscope.

the rounded bnc connectors have been around for a long time. i believe Trompeter makes those.

[Redtailed]

About $3500AU for that model I was told. That's with the fixed lens. Another model has interchangeable lenses.

I've been interested in getting a magnification system for a while. But at that ridiculous price, I'll stick to considering an Amscope stereomicroscope with camera.

[EEVblog]

-boink- for 179$ you can get a sony HD camera with 40x zoom lens that has an HDMI output .... and it will record to memory stick as well..
maybe an idea for a home project.... make your own hires video microscope.

Sure, probably doable, but will it focus over the whole macro range from a fixed height like that and provide a usable depth of field? Almost certainly not.
But there might be a sweet spot somewhere in terms of camera/macro lens combo that is cheap and useful for this same purpose.

e.g. my x10 zoom Canon with normal lens needs to be about 800-900mm above the bench at x10 to be usable.
With x10 macro lens which actually makes it useful, and at full zoom, the distance becomes about 100mm+/- only a few mm, so the depth of field is very shallow. Even increasing the F stop to right up to full doesn't really help.

So it's not just a matter of getting a x40 camcorder and putting it on an arm.

[robrenz]

Great teardown Dave A new venue of unlimited teardown material.

[peter.mitchell]

TBH, I think $3500 for that is a reasonable price. Think about how much a brand new high quality macro lens for a ILC costs alone.

On to the scope, I do recall one of the videos (possibly last electronex) that the guy from Picoscope said something about USB3 and improved USB streaming sample rate. Currently, it looks like you can stream at 10MSPs, which isn't much for 'scope needs, but for DAQ that's pretty massive.

[free_electron]

Sure, probably doable, but will it focus over the whole macro range from a fixed height like that and provide a usable depth of field? Almost certainly not.

i'll give it a try with my camera's. they do a pretty good macro zoom.
the small pocket camera's use cell phone style sensors with small optics. those things can focus close.

it's worth a try . i'll go to the local fry's tomorrow over lunch and play with all the camaras out there. see which one can zoom the closest and has the widest focusing range.

It's worth a shot. two pieces of pipe, an off the shelf cheapo HD camera that records to SD card and you are set. all those have hdmi live outputs.
hook it upt to the computer monitor's second channel and it's good to go.

let me see what i can find out

[EEVblog]

It would be awesome if there was a cheap consumer camera out there that just happened to have the suitable optics and macro and zoom and depth of field to do the job. I suspect you won't find one out of the box, but worth a shot, and maybe in combination with a suitable macro lens (even if bodged on) would be a boon.
Could probably do something with a Micro 4/3 camera and suitable lens, but that likely wouldn't be cheap. But still much cheaper than a commercial unit.
But the right tool for the job is usually purpose designed.

[synapsis]

I tried the Sony Camcorder route. It's very hard to solder under that because of the lens distortion and lack of depth of field. Putting a diopter on the camera just made the edges unusable. The depth of field was less than the iron tip.

I've also tried a Canon SLR. It was a photography project where I made a few foot wide panorama print of a Commodore Vic-20 circuit board. I couldn't use any lens with a focal length of less than 70 because the edge distortion was terrible. I ended up using a telephoto lens to get rid of the distortion, and closing the aperture way down to get a good depth of field. The camera was 6 feet away. Plenty of room to solder, play ping pong...

Here's a reduction of the final image for the photography nuts. The final print was 33" wide. Focal length 160mm, f18

[EEVblog]

I tried the Sony Camcorder route. It's very hard to solder under that because of the lens distortion and lack of depth of field. Putting a diopter on the camera just made the edges unusable. The depth of field was less than the iron tip.

I've also tried a Canon SLR. It was a photography project where I made a few foot wide panorama print of a Commodore Vic-20 circuit board. I couldn't use any lens with a focal length of less than 70 because the edge distortion was terrible. I ended up using a telephoto lens to get rid of the distortion, and closing the aperture way down to get a good depth of field. The camera was 6 feet away. Plenty of room to solder, play ping pong...

How much usable zoom could you get with that though?
The issue with PCB stuff is that you want to go from whole board to really up close macro with ease and continual focus with that large depth of field.
I'm not sure what's in these PCB cameras in terms of lens etc that makes them so optimised in this regard?

Hawker Richardson had a similar one on display too, with x30 and similar working distance, but it wasn't as good in the auto-focus department IMO.
http://www.hawkerrichardson.com.au/optical-inspection/cam-z/full-hd-inspection-camera

[synapsis]

If I remember right, I could zoom in to a DIP16 and fill the frame. I did this in 2011, so it's been awhile.

I've been meaning to set it all back up to photograph a Commodore 16 board. Maybe I'll mess with the optics and see what kinds of numbers actually work. It's easier than breaking out the textbook and doing the math.

Although I could just do all the math and calculate what size optics and configuration of lens elements they're probably using. Hrm...

[EEVblog]

Not an expert on PCB cameras but I think you might be confusing Depth of Field (DOF)  with Flatness of Field (FOF). DOF is the distance of acceptable apparent sharpness in front of and beyond the point of sharp focus. FOF is not surprisingly the flatness of the plane of sharp focus. Macro lenses are optimised for FOF so that things like coins and stamps (and PCBs) can be photographed well.  If the lens is not optimised for good FOF then the corners and edges of the plane of sharpest focus can curve towards or away from the camera and lead to what some think of a distortions. The degree of curvature can exceed the DOF and the edges of a flat subject appear unsharp. Even when the plane of sharp focus is curved the DOF still exists both in front of and behind it. It is just curved too. Some lenses such as the Minolta 35mm Shift CA were made to deliberately offer variable field curvature from concave through flat to convex.

Yep, I'm always talking out my arse when it comes to optics stuff 
Yes, I get this distorting effect on my Opteka x10 macro lens I use for my video, but mostly only visible at full x10 zoom on my Canon HF G10. And at widest view I get the "pinhole" effect I guess you call it and can see the round macro lens.
So that's the thing with these PCB cameras, the lens and optics have been designed to give a perfect image and FOF across the full zoom range at a set distance.

Magnification and working distance are also mutually exclusive optically. If you appear to have both then there is probably some sensor electronics involved in magnifying the central image of the lens.

These PCB cameras don't appear to be using any form of digital zoom, it appears to be full optical over the entire range. That Tagarno has a x100 lens option I think, so I'm not sure how that works, the x40 was impressive enough.

[alm]

Magnification and working distance are also mutually exclusive optically. If you appear to have both then there is probably some sensor electronics involved in magnifying the central image of the lens. The larger working distance would also produce the side benefit of greater DOF since DOF diminishes as the lens to subject distance decreases.

At the same focal length. A lens with a longer focal length will have a higher magnification at the same working distance, or a larger working distance for the same magnification (assuming an identical lens design with regards to pupil magnification and other stuff).

[synapsis]

To get rid of the edge distortion with really "round" lenses, you can close the aperture a bit so you're using less of the lens.

I've decided to try out an extension tube on my SLR and see how that works out. It should shift the focus distance so I can get closer than 6 feet to the board, and I'll also get more magnification. It gets here Friday.

Everything else I have (diopters, flip rings, etc...) will get me really good magnification, but of course my working distance is in the mm range.

This is the best I could do with what I had. This is a lens that I got for free because it's been dropped a few times, that I put on the camera backwards with a flip ring.

[EEVblog]

I've decided to try out an extension tube on my SLR and see how that works out. It should shift the focus distance so I can get closer than 6 feet to the board, and

I've tried those with my macro lens and they really don't make much difference in my case.

[BravoV]

Great teardown Dave A new venue of unlimited teardown material.

Robrenz, when I saw that camera with the fixed mount, the 1st thing came out from my mind was to mod it and hook up with your finely built articulated magnetic camera mount. 

[alm]

What you need for good working distance is focal length. Diopters reduce the focal length. The best way would be to take a lens with a long focal length on a long extension tube (or even bellows). Since this gets mechanically tricky, taking a long lens and putting a (two-element) diopter on it is usually more practical. A good 200mm+ lens with a +2 or +3 diopter on it will still have a longer focal length than say a 50 mm lens with extension tubes. You may need additional extension to get decent magnification from that 200mm lens.

[Tooms]

Hi

just to say that as tagarno.dk is Danish company and i am from Denmark, so i have sendt Tagarno an mail that it will be an good idea for them to follow up on the video that Dave just has made and i have already got an response back from Tagarno that they like that idea and will contact Dave.

So Dave i guess that you maybe can make the wishlist ready for Tagarno 


Note: i dont know or work for Tagarno, i am just an fan there has sent them an mail.. thats it.


Tooms

[elmohandis]

Taking a look at the DC input, it seems they do not directly connect the input ground to the system ground, but go through some filtering.

Can anyone help guess what the two blocky devices are (they look like chokes) but im not sure about the 2nd one.

DC jack --> series L --> shunt C  --> Common mode choke  -> larger shunt C ? -->  (no idea whats going on here)

Regards

[tru]

I've found a puzzle with the max resolution.

PicoScope 5000 advertising 16bits in error due to manufacturer and supplier website details error?

The datasheets (both old asd5020 & new hmcad1520):
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/DataSheetASD5020HS_v2.0.pdf
http://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf

In both datasheets it shows the ic does only 8/12/14 bits, 16bits does not exist.

Possible errors:
In Hittite website:
http://www.hittite.com/products/index.html/category/354
Chart shows 1520 being capable of 16bits but disagrees with the datasheet
In Mouser:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HMCAD1520/1127-1198-1-ND/3660242
Details shows 8/12/14/16 bits

Only thing I can think of is perhaps there is an undocumented 16bits mode (not mentioned in datasheet).

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

I'm using a Seben binocular for months, it was a huge improvement compared to nothing, but it is very difficult to work under it because of the small facal length (<100mm).

I saw the video and was really impressed by the precision of the opics and speed of focus, etc.

I contacted MJB who is the French distributor for the Magnus HD Zip (and the Mantis Compact and Elite).
The guy will come next week to show me the Magnus HD zip and let me play with it on my bench (best test you can do ...).

If it is working as advertised (enough room to work under, good quality, depth of view, etc) I'll probably buy one ASAP.

He told me the price is 2500€ excl VAT with the monitor, and you can remove the monitor to save approx. 300€. I already have 3x 27" on my desk and plan to use an HDMI digitizer (Like AverMedia Live Gamer HD) to be able to watch the video on my PC and save the video on my PC too. I may also add a new, dedicated monitor when I'll have more space (my workshop is 12 square meter, I'd need 30 ).

I'll let you know.

Thomas.

[olsenn]

Funny how this post on a Picoscope DSO has turned into a post on a digital camera/microscope 

[Otatiaro]

http://www.tagarno.com/en/frontpage/products/inspection.aspx

There is a post about Dave

Thomas.

[EEVblog]

It would be interesting to see how they actually work. They can't defy the laws of optics any more than a flying brick can't defy gravity.

Of course. But when you design something like this for one specific relatively narrow range of operation for one task, as opposed to a general purpose still or video camera that must give good performance over a much wider performance range, I suspect you are able to extract better performance than a general purpose device allows.

[EEVblog]

http://www.tagarno.com/en/frontpage/products/inspection.aspx
There is a post about Dave

Wow, I wonder how they found out? Maybe they watch the blog?
I'm #6 on youtube for Tagarno already, which is good considering the video is not about the Tagarno and it's name is not used in the title.
EDIT: Ah, they link to my tweet photo from the show, so maybe they are tracking the name on twitter.

[kayvee]

Maybe Tooms up there gets some credit too

[Tooms]

http://www.tagarno.com/en/frontpage/products/inspection.aspx
There is a post about Dave

Wow, I wonder how they found out? Maybe they watch the blog?
I'm #6 on youtube for Tagarno already, which is good considering the video is not about the Tagarno and it's name is not used in the title.
EDIT: Ah, they link to my tweet photo from the show, so maybe they are tracking the name on twitter.

Dave, i have talked with the marking team this morning and told them that i think it will be an good idea if they send a scope your way and i have posted about it in this thead today.



Post in this thread from today:

Hi

just to say that as tagarno.dk is Danish company and i am from Denmark, so i have sendt Tagarno an mail that it will be an good idea for them to follow up on the video that Dave just has made and i have already got an response back from Tagarno that they like that idea and will contact Dave.

So Dave i guess that you maybe can make the wishlist ready for Tagarno 


Note: i dont know or work for Tagarno, i am just an fan there has sent them an mail.. thats it.


Tooms

[EEVblog]

Thanks Tooms
Yes, I got their email this morning.

[Tooms]

Super, hope they give you some nice offer. 


/Tooms

[SeanB]

Nice looking microscope, best way to describe it would be as being close to invisible. It was easy to use, easy to adjust ( no training on the part of Dave as to how to use it with reasonable results instantly) and pretty good display.

[iceisfun]

I hope we see one of those Tagarno devices in the lab soon! Its sounding good so far

[EEVblog]

It will be a few months at least, but you might eventually see a Tagarno in the lab...

[synapsis]

So... have any spares for us blind folk?

I just tried out the extension tube. It actually works fairly well. I couldn't get much depth because the lens was disconnected from the camera electronics by the tube, but I'll definitely be using it for board photography. If I had a lens I could close the aperture down manually on, this would be a totally feasible scope.

The distance of the lens from the board was 35cm. Around 180mm focal length, 50mm tube, aperture stuck at f2.8.

Edit: Brought the photo down to monitor size, as you'd use with a scope.

[EEVblog]

I just tried out the extension tube. It actually works fairly well. I couldn't get much depth because the lens was disconnected from the camera electronics by the tube, but I'll definitely be using it for board photography. If I had a lens I could close the aperture down manually on, this would be a totally feasible scope.
The distance of the lens from the board was 35cm. Around 180mm focal length, 50mm tube, aperture stuck at f2.8.
/quote]

Do I detect a hint of edge distortion there?
Is that the highest zoom poossible?

[synapsis]

The edge distortion is because the aperture was stuck 100% open. I need to get some flat flex to pass the camera signals across the tube. If I could close the aperture down even to f11 the distortion would be much less, and the range that things are in focus would increase.

To increase the zoom would require more focal length, which I don't have.

To replicate what I'm using to make that image is already near the price of a used Mantis scope on eBay, though.

[peter.mitchell]

Do you have a canon DSLR? if so, with the camera on, set your aperture, hold the DOF Preview button and while still on and holding the button, release the lens from the body. The lens should remain stopped down, and you should be able to use that more usefully. Unsure if the same thing works for Nikon sony ect.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

I bought this to try with my camcorder, I already have the lens, and LED ring, I'll give it a try with the arm.
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0011EHRDM/ref=ox_ya_os_product

So that I can compare with the Magnus HD ZIP next week.


Thomas.

[synapsis]

Do you have a canon DSLR? if so, with the camera on, set your aperture, hold the DOF Preview button and while still on and holding the button, release the lens from the body. The lens should remain stopped down, and you should be able to use that more usefully. Unsure if the same thing works for Nikon sony ect.

I do, a T2i. I'm going to have to try that once I get time to drag the gear back out again. Thanks for the tip! 

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

Received the manfrotto magic arm. It is very well biult and very strong.

The Opteka macro lens x10 is too much, the focal lense is less than 100mm. I ordered a polaroid set of macro lenses, I hope the x4 lens will be much more usable. I also ordered a polarized lens because the worst thing you have to fight against is reflection.

Using the LED ring on the lens, it is very bright but you get far too much reflections. I'll try with semi flexible LED lights from IKEA, 2 or 3 should be ok and give a far better lighting than LED ring.

I plugged the HDMI output from the camcorder (panasonic HC-V700) to a 27" screen, and the result is already very good, with a few tweaks I guess it will be pretty much as usable as the magnus hd zip ... I'll only miss a remote control for zoom and focus. If it proves to be very usefull, then I'll probably change the camcorder for a better one with a remote.

Thomas.

[EEVblog]

I plugged the HDMI output from the camcorder (panasonic HC-V700) to a 27" screen

Just be aware that the Tagarno spec their zoom level with a 22" monitor if you are doing direct zoom number comparisons.
Zoom figures are always misleading, I'd prefer to see a simple "visible image diameter" figure at max zoom.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

I did a frist test with proper lighting and no macro lens, I can get a very good image with maximum zoom being 7cm width.
Using full HD, that's less than 40µm per pixel.

Distortion is minimal (placed a ruler at the edges to check), contrast is very good, less reflections.

I hope I can get much more zoom with +4 macro lens (I can't go over 8x optic zoom on the camcorder, it can go up to 46x/60x with no resolution loss). I should receive polarized lens and macro lenses on wednesday.

Thomas.

[EEVblog]

I did a frist test with proper lighting and no macro lens, I can get a very good image with maximum zoom being 7cm width.

IIRC, with my x10 Opteka macro lens and camera at full zoom I get 50mm visible image width. Will have to confirm that though.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

Did a few tests with opteka 10x lens ... the lens is 100mm from the object to shoot.

You can get the pictures here : https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3574941/MacroCorder.zip

In fact the camcorder can shoot 5.1Mpxl still pictures while still sending full hd stream to the HDMI monitor.

The resistors is 0603 package. S1030007.JPG is at max zoom (60x) with opteka x10 lens. This is just insane and not usable to work under.

08 and 09 are 2 shots of one of my boards at reasonnable zoom.

10 shows the focus is still good across a few millimeters, much more than I expected.

11 shows a ruler at max zoom ... yes this is barely more than 2mm, that's (in theory) 2.3mm over 3200 pixels, hence 720 nano meters per pixel ! Say real resolution is about 50x less (checked on the resistor picture, there is less than 50pixels to go from black to white on marking edge), that's still less than 40µm.

I hope with polariod macro lens I can get about 250mm working distance between the object and the lens, and still get at least as much zoom as the Magnus HD zip.

Of course it is not as comfortable as the Magnus HD zip because you miss the remote with zoom and focus control ... zoom is quite easy to change on the camcorder itself, focus is not (it would be on the HC-X920, you have a ring to change focus). But you get the ability to very easily record still pictures or full HD records of what you are doing.

Thomas.

[EEVblog]

Wow, that's pretty damn good!
Seems like a decent lens and camera combo there.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

Result is already great, but x10 is too much, 100mm from lens to object is very limiting to work under with an iron.

x4 should be a lot better, and polarized lens should increase the contrast and remove part of light reflections.

Thomas.

PS : what it cost me :

- Panasonic HC-V700  = approx 425€ one year ago with 2 batteries at Darty
- Manfrotto magic arm kit = approx 150€ at amazon.fr
- 4 macro lenses + 4 filter lenses = approx 50€ at amazon.fr
- 3x LED light from IKEA = approx 30€
- HDMI cable = a few euros ...

For a total of less than 700€. Probably not as comfortable as the Magnus HD ZIP, but for 4x less money ... and you can take still pictures and record Full HD movies. You also have a (very) small screen on the camcorder that you can use for some jobs.

[synapsis]

The issue I had using my camcorder was the massive delay between movement I was doing (tip of the iron for instance) and that movement showing up in the video. It was very distracting. Do you have that issue?

I was using floodlights, so I don't *think* shutter speed was the issue.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

I will check again but I did not feel any delay at all.

Thomas.

[jancumps]

Hello,

I will check again but I did not feel any delay at all.

Thomas.

Then it must be ok. Our brain is confused by the slightest delays. You would have noticed it while trying.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

Received the lenses today ... first the polarized filter is crap, pretty much no effect.

With the +4 lens I get quite decent zoom and still have approx 22cm clearance between lens and work area. That is enough to solder under without issue.

Now the result is pretty good, but I feel there is some improvements on the lighting part ... you need diffuse lighting to get smooth reflection. With LED spot lights I get too much reflections from the spot itself.

Any idea ?

Thomas.

[synapsis]

For cheap and quick diffusion I've used just plain sheets of paper taped to the light.

I picked up some of this material from the drafting dept where I used to work. I clip it directly onto the spotlight for circuit board photography.

https://www.inventables.com/technologies/light-diffuser-film-rolls

[alm]

Taping a piece of paper to the light will do very little, especially if it has a decent reflector. Softness of the light will depend on the size of the light source as seen from the object. The sun is huge, but a relatively hard light source because it's so far away. A softbox or umbrella, as used by a professional portrait photographer, very close to the object produces very soft light. A piece of paper the size of the reflector will do very little to increase the size of the light source. You need a relatively big diffuser (think softbox) or reflector to get soft light.

[Otatiaro]

Hello,

Ok I just played with the Magnus HD ZIP on my desk. Short conclusion : won't buy it.
The image quality is not that great especially when you zoom in.

The product itself is very good, simple, easy to use (the manual focus is nice to have), but not as good as I expected.

The good point is there is no delay at all, tested with my camcorder at the same time, the Magnus is faster, with the camcorder you can feel a slight delay. I still have to test with an iron if this is a problem or not.

Anyway, they have quite good binoculars in their catalog, might probably go that route and keep the camcorder on the arm for some usages.

He also talked to me about the Metcal soldering irons ... seems nice, next time he'll bring one for me to test.

Thomas.

[EEVblog]

Ok I just played with the Magnus HD ZIP on my desk. Short conclusion : won't buy it.
The image quality is not that great especially when you zoom in.

I didn't see any image quality issues in my quick test.
Were you able to test the field of view in mm at full zoom?

[diverger]

Taking a look at the DC input, it seems they do not directly connect the input ground to the system ground, but go through some filtering.

Can anyone help guess what the two blocky devices are (they look like chokes) but im not sure about the 2nd one.

DC jack --> series L --> shunt C  --> Common mode choke  -> larger shunt C ? -->  (no idea whats going on here)

Regards

I also want to know what is it. It seems a big choke. But I can't find the model of it. Can anyone confirm this?