Author Topic: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown  (Read 25232 times)

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Offline iceisfun

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 11:51:04 pm »
That hdmi microscope was pretty awesome, how much do those go for?

 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 11:54:43 pm »
That hdmi microscope was pretty awesome, how much do those go for?

About $3500AU for that model I was told. That's with the fixed lens. Another model has interchangeable lenses.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 01:37:08 am »
-boink- for 179$ you can get a sony HD camera with 40x zoom lens that has an HDMI output .... and it will record to memory stick as well..
maybe an idea for a home project.... make your own hires video microscope.

the rounded bnc connectors have been around for a long time. i believe Trompeter makes those.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:45:17 am by free_electron »
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Offline Redtailed

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 02:21:23 am »
About $3500AU for that model I was told. That's with the fixed lens. Another model has interchangeable lenses.

I've been interested in getting a magnification system for a while. But at that ridiculous price, I'll stick to considering an Amscope stereomicroscope with camera.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 02:27:11 am »
-boink- for 179$ you can get a sony HD camera with 40x zoom lens that has an HDMI output .... and it will record to memory stick as well..
maybe an idea for a home project.... make your own hires video microscope.

Sure, probably doable, but will it focus over the whole macro range from a fixed height like that and provide a usable depth of field? Almost certainly not.
But there might be a sweet spot somewhere in terms of camera/macro lens combo that is cheap and useful for this same purpose.

e.g. my x10 zoom Canon with normal lens needs to be about 800-900mm above the bench at x10 to be usable.
With x10 macro lens which actually makes it useful, and at full zoom, the distance becomes about 100mm+/- only a few mm, so the depth of field is very shallow. Even increasing the F stop to right up to full doesn't really help.

So it's not just a matter of getting a x40 camcorder and putting it on an arm.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:35:56 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2013, 02:42:50 am »
Great teardown Dave :-+ A new venue of unlimited teardown material.

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2013, 02:57:13 am »
TBH, I think $3500 for that is a reasonable price. Think about how much a brand new high quality macro lens for a ILC costs alone.

On to the scope, I do recall one of the videos (possibly last electronex) that the guy from Picoscope said something about USB3 and improved USB streaming sample rate. Currently, it looks like you can stream at 10MSPs, which isn't much for 'scope needs, but for DAQ that's pretty massive.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 03:06:19 am »

Sure, probably doable, but will it focus over the whole macro range from a fixed height like that and provide a usable depth of field? Almost certainly not.
i'll give it a try with my camera's. they do a pretty good macro zoom.
the small pocket camera's use cell phone style sensors with small optics. those things can focus close.

it's worth a try . i'll go to the local fry's tomorrow over lunch and play with all the camaras out there. see which one can zoom the closest and has the widest focusing range.

It's worth a shot. two pieces of pipe, an off the shelf cheapo HD camera that records to SD card and you are set. all those have hdmi live outputs.
hook it upt to the computer monitor's second channel and it's good to go.

let me see what i can find out
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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 03:26:38 am »
It would be awesome if there was a cheap consumer camera out there that just happened to have the suitable optics and macro and zoom and depth of field to do the job. I suspect you won't find one out of the box, but worth a shot, and maybe in combination with a suitable macro lens (even if bodged on) would be a boon.
Could probably do something with a Micro 4/3 camera and suitable lens, but that likely wouldn't be cheap. But still much cheaper than a commercial unit.
But the right tool for the job is usually purpose designed.
 

Offline synapsis

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 06:09:09 am »
I tried the Sony Camcorder route. It's very hard to solder under that because of the lens distortion and lack of depth of field. Putting a diopter on the camera just made the edges unusable. The depth of field was less than the iron tip.

I've also tried a Canon SLR. It was a photography project where I made a few foot wide panorama print of a Commodore Vic-20 circuit board. I couldn't use any lens with a focal length of less than 70 because the edge distortion was terrible. I ended up using a telephoto lens to get rid of the distortion, and closing the aperture way down to get a good depth of field. The camera was 6 feet away. Plenty of room to solder, play ping pong...

Here's a reduction of the final image for the photography nuts. The final print was 33" wide. Focal length 160mm, f18
 

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 06:15:39 am »
I tried the Sony Camcorder route. It's very hard to solder under that because of the lens distortion and lack of depth of field. Putting a diopter on the camera just made the edges unusable. The depth of field was less than the iron tip.

I've also tried a Canon SLR. It was a photography project where I made a few foot wide panorama print of a Commodore Vic-20 circuit board. I couldn't use any lens with a focal length of less than 70 because the edge distortion was terrible. I ended up using a telephoto lens to get rid of the distortion, and closing the aperture way down to get a good depth of field. The camera was 6 feet away. Plenty of room to solder, play ping pong...

How much usable zoom could you get with that though?
The issue with PCB stuff is that you want to go from whole board to really up close macro with ease and continual focus with that large depth of field.
I'm not sure what's in these PCB cameras in terms of lens etc that makes them so optimised in this regard?

Hawker Richardson had a similar one on display too, with x30 and similar working distance, but it wasn't as good in the auto-focus department IMO.
http://www.hawkerrichardson.com.au/optical-inspection/cam-z/full-hd-inspection-camera
 

Offline synapsis

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 06:25:51 am »
If I remember right, I could zoom in to a DIP16 and fill the frame. I did this in 2011, so it's been awhile.

I've been meaning to set it all back up to photograph a Commodore 16 board. Maybe I'll mess with the optics and see what kinds of numbers actually work. It's easier than breaking out the textbook and doing the math.

Although I could just do all the math and calculate what size optics and configuration of lens elements they're probably using. Hrm...
 

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 06:52:08 am »
Not an expert on PCB cameras but I think you might be confusing Depth of Field (DOF)  with Flatness of Field (FOF). DOF is the distance of acceptable apparent sharpness in front of and beyond the point of sharp focus. FOF is not surprisingly the flatness of the plane of sharp focus. Macro lenses are optimised for FOF so that things like coins and stamps (and PCBs) can be photographed well.  If the lens is not optimised for good FOF then the corners and edges of the plane of sharpest focus can curve towards or away from the camera and lead to what some think of a distortions. The degree of curvature can exceed the DOF and the edges of a flat subject appear unsharp. Even when the plane of sharp focus is curved the DOF still exists both in front of and behind it. It is just curved too. Some lenses such as the Minolta 35mm Shift CA were made to deliberately offer variable field curvature from concave through flat to convex.

Yep, I'm always talking out my arse when it comes to optics stuff  ;D
Yes, I get this distorting effect on my Opteka x10 macro lens I use for my video, but mostly only visible at full x10 zoom on my Canon HF G10. And at widest view I get the "pinhole" effect I guess you call it and can see the round macro lens.
So that's the thing with these PCB cameras, the lens and optics have been designed to give a perfect image and FOF across the full zoom range at a set distance.

Quote
Magnification and working distance are also mutually exclusive optically. If you appear to have both then there is probably some sensor electronics involved in magnifying the central image of the lens.

These PCB cameras don't appear to be using any form of digital zoom, it appears to be full optical over the entire range. That Tagarno has a x100 lens option I think, so I'm not sure how that works, the x40 was impressive enough.
 

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 07:29:49 am »
Magnification and working distance are also mutually exclusive optically. If you appear to have both then there is probably some sensor electronics involved in magnifying the central image of the lens. The larger working distance would also produce the side benefit of greater DOF since DOF diminishes as the lens to subject distance decreases.
At the same focal length. A lens with a longer focal length will have a higher magnification at the same working distance, or a larger working distance for the same magnification (assuming an identical lens design with regards to pupil magnification and other stuff).
 

Offline synapsis

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 07:42:42 am »
To get rid of the edge distortion with really "round" lenses, you can close the aperture a bit so you're using less of the lens.

I've decided to try out an extension tube on my SLR and see how that works out. It should shift the focus distance so I can get closer than 6 feet to the board, and I'll also get more magnification. It gets here Friday.

Everything else I have (diopters, flip rings, etc...) will get me really good magnification, but of course my working distance is in the mm range.

This is the best I could do with what I had. This is a lens that I got for free because it's been dropped a few times, that I put on the camera backwards with a flip ring.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:44:46 am by synapsis »
 

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 07:45:44 am »
I've decided to try out an extension tube on my SLR and see how that works out. It should shift the focus distance so I can get closer than 6 feet to the board, and

I've tried those with my macro lens and they really don't make much difference in my case.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 07:46:43 am »
Great teardown Dave :-+ A new venue of unlimited teardown material.

Robrenz, when I saw that camera with the fixed mount, the 1st thing came out from my mind was to mod it and hook up with your finely built articulated magnetic camera mount.  >:D

alm

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 07:50:01 am »
What you need for good working distance is focal length. Diopters reduce the focal length. The best way would be to take a lens with a long focal length on a long extension tube (or even bellows). Since this gets mechanically tricky, taking a long lens and putting a (two-element) diopter on it is usually more practical. A good 200mm+ lens with a +2 or +3 diopter on it will still have a longer focal length than say a 50 mm lens with extension tubes. You may need additional extension to get decent magnification from that 200mm lens.
 

Offline Tooms

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 08:12:51 am »
Hi

just to say that as tagarno.dk is Danish company and i am from Denmark, so i have sendt Tagarno an mail that it will be an good idea for them to follow up on the video that Dave just has made and i have already got an response back from Tagarno that they like that idea and will contact Dave.

So Dave i guess that you maybe can make the wishlist ready for Tagarno  :P


Note: i dont know or work for Tagarno, i am just an fan there has sent them an mail.. thats it.


Tooms

 

Offline elmohandis

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 08:45:18 am »

Taking a look at the DC input, it seems they do not directly connect the input ground to the system ground, but go through some filtering.

Can anyone help guess what the two blocky devices are (they look like chokes) but im not sure about the 2nd one.

DC jack --> series L --> shunt C  --> Common mode choke  -> larger shunt C ? -->  ??? (no idea whats going on here)

Regards
 

Offline tru

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2013, 10:20:20 am »
I've found a puzzle with the max resolution.

PicoScope 5000 advertising 16bits in error due to manufacturer and supplier website details error?

The datasheets (both old asd5020 & new hmcad1520):
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/DataSheetASD5020HS_v2.0.pdf
http://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf

In both datasheets it shows the ic does only 8/12/14 bits, 16bits does not exist.

Possible errors:
In Hittite website:
http://www.hittite.com/products/index.html/category/354
Chart shows 1520 being capable of 16bits but disagrees with the datasheet
In Mouser:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HMCAD1520/1127-1198-1-ND/3660242
Details shows 8/12/14/16 bits

Only thing I can think of is perhaps there is an undocumented 16bits mode (not mentioned in datasheet).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 10:37:46 am by tru »
 

Offline Otatiaro

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 12:36:04 pm »
Hello,

I'm using a Seben binocular for months, it was a huge improvement compared to nothing, but it is very difficult to work under it because of the small facal length (<100mm).

I saw the video and was really impressed by the precision of the opics and speed of focus, etc.

I contacted MJB who is the French distributor for the Magnus HD Zip (and the Mantis Compact and Elite).
The guy will come next week to show me the Magnus HD zip and let me play with it on my bench (best test you can do ...).

If it is working as advertised (enough room to work under, good quality, depth of view, etc) I'll probably buy one ASAP.

He told me the price is 2500€ excl VAT with the monitor, and you can remove the monitor to save approx. 300€. I already have 3x 27" on my desk and plan to use an HDMI digitizer (Like AverMedia Live Gamer HD) to be able to watch the video on my PC and save the video on my PC too. I may also add a new, dedicated monitor when I'll have more space (my workshop is 12 square meter, I'd need 30 ;) ).

I'll let you know.

Thomas.
 

Offline olsenn

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 01:40:59 pm »
Funny how this post on a Picoscope DSO has turned into a post on a digital camera/microscope  :palm:
 

Offline Otatiaro

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Re: EEVblog #521 - Picoscope 5000 USB Oscilloscope Teardown
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 02:05:55 pm »
 


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