Author Topic: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement  (Read 15607 times)

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EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« on: October 05, 2013, 01:06:24 pm »
Dave installs some more fluoro LED luminaire light replacements in the lab.
http://www.mueller-licht.de/
Previous videos:
LED tube design Safety: http://youtu.be/saYtnaBp4QA?t=16m30s




 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 02:48:33 pm »
We do a lot of lighting design at work (electrical building services engineer).

Most new designs use T5 fluorescent tubes which are thinner, and a bit more efficient. A standard 1200mm long tube is 28W @ 2600 lumens. There are "ECO" tubes that use 25W and provide the same lumens. You also have ~3W of loss in the electronic ballasts. T8's with an electronic ballast are not that far behind in efficiency either.

The big thing with fluoro lights is the quality of the fitting. The tubes emit light in all directions, so 50% of the light needs to be reflected back down again. Market leading fittings can get as high as 90% LOR (ie Thorn Sustain II, Pierlite Futcha 5). Your basic box fitting with white painted steel plus a prismatic plastic diffuser can be as bad as 65%. With those LED tubes, you probably get most of those 1700 lumens due to the directional nature of LEDS. Based on your readings, you are probably only getting ~2200 lumens of usable light from those T8s (~3500lm) ie 63%. Installing the LED tube upside down is a good example of just how bad the reflector is :)

If you have *@*$ T8 fittings, then the LED replacements aren't a bad option, as long as they last a reasonable amount of time and give equivalent light. You can also get T8 to T5 adapters, which is basically a T8 sized "tube" with an integrated reflector and a T5 tube fitted into it. These save a bit of energy without being too expensive.

For a new design, the LED advantage just isn't there for linear office lighting. We have a project with 15,000 T5 fittings across ~35 floors, and were required to do a cost comparison vs LED fittings for our client. End result: taking into account relamping costs (including labour), energy saved, and initial costs, even after 10 years, the fluorescents were still cheaper *just*. The kicker is, after 10 years, and the LEDs have reached their 70% 50,000 hour life, you need to replace the WHOLE FITTING. Comparison was something like Thorn Sustain II vs Cree CR14 (a proper LED fitting, not retrofit tubes).

LED smashes anything compact fluorescent though, like in downlights. It's just too hard to make a decent reflector with the shape/size of those CFLs.

tl;dr LED replacement tubes for consumer markets isn't anywhere near amazing as they make it out to be.

AS1680 is the standard for lighting. Offices are 320lux at the working plane. There are entirely different standards used for things relating to video recording and broadcast. 800lux on your desk for recording is a reasonable amount to design to.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 03:01:42 pm by metalphreak »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 03:00:40 pm »
Have looked at LED, and just am keeping the T8 tubes with magnetic ballasts. I have had way too many electronic ballasts fail ( and not just the cheap ones but Phillips, Osram and so on) after around the 2 year mark, while the magnetic units just keep on going. Have retrofitted a few to magnetic from electronic, as the 2 ballasts and starters were cheaper than a new fitting, and I even put the original tubes back in again ( they were fine, about 5% down but identical in output to the others in the room) and they are still running 2 years later, along with one or two of the surviving electronic ballasts. There is still one T12 fitting left with a resonant ballast, that will either be retrofitted or scrapped, depending on the condition of the lamp holders, though I did retrofit a lot of the others over the years. Generally a T8 fitting with a magnetic ballast will last 20 years or more, provided you use a good quality tube and a good starter.

Of course the one place I want LED is in downlighters, but the output from the retrofit units ( even those that just use the existing hole) is far from what even a 20W halogen lamp can do. If I can get those then I will be able to remove about 10 500VA transformers.......
 

Offline jahonen

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 03:41:58 pm »
I have been recently changing a number of magnetic ballasts to electronic ones and I have noticed a nice reduction of real power taken by the fitting. For typical 2x18W T8 fitting, real power goes down by 15 watts (50W -> 35W) or so in addition of almost total elimination of reactive power (checked with my MetraHit Energy). My friend did this for 2x36W one and the reduction was 36W. I think not too bad. Unfortunately, I didn't measure the light output, but I'll try to do so in near future to see if I actually lost some light output. I also installed a thermofused MOV (EPCOS ETFV series) in parallel of the electronic ballast, just to make sure that they will live longer (see below).

In the office building where my workplace is, all ballasts are electronic and I can't remember that even single one has gone bad during 10 years or so in our office premises.

I recently did some measurements to investigate why our toilet light (fluorescent with magnetic ballast) caused disruption of TV signal in the living room. It seems that quite often the 100n etc. X2 cap in the fitting with magnetic ballast is pretty much toast, i.e. capacitance completely gone. That must be due to the high voltage transient generated by the sudden interruption of the current in magnetic ballast. I found out that it is not uncommon to see +1kV peak transient during turn-off. Thus my opinion is that one should not combine magnetic and electronic ballasts (or any led lights) behind same switch with magnetic ballasts, or electronic ones/leds will get a very hefty line transient on each turn-off and will be damaged in no time. After I replaced the X2 cap and put a MOV in parallel, all TV signal disruptions were completely eliminated. 275 V MOV will limit maximum voltage around 500-600 volts or so, which is compatible with the used X2 cap specifications.

Regards,
Janne
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 03:45:33 pm by jahonen »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 04:45:09 pm »
Phillips introduced a low power long life tube a while ago, uses a lot less power, has a slight light reduction compared to the existing tubes, and comes with an electronic starter. Have had some on now nearly 2 years running 24/7 in a corridor as lighting, and the light output from them is still similar to the existing tubes that are switched. 4ft fitting uses 30W including ballast losses, and is a nominal 2100lumens.

http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4b/9/927997184002_eu/927997184002_eu_pss_engza.pdf

Only reason I am not buying them in case lots is the initial cost is a little off-putting at over triple the cost of the equal life Phillips lamps I currently buy, with a similar life, but they are on my list as the next boxes of lamps I will be buying soon, will negotiate a little for the price when ordering.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2013, 02:18:41 am »
A few months back they replaced all the tubes at work with Philips Alto tubes. The first few days it felt like my retinas were being vaporized.  We've gotten used to them now but everyone hated them at first.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 06:42:20 am by Stonent »
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Offline bookaboo

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2013, 05:28:21 pm »
I just installed my first LED bulbs at home. I replaced 5 x E14 28w halogen in the living room main light fiting with 3.5w LED, they were Modo brand off ebay.
I don't yet have a light meter but I'd say the 5 LEDs are certainly dimmer than the halogens, that said the halogens were much too bright and they would fail so often that it was usually only when we were down to 2 that we would actually notice.
I have to say I'm quite happy with them, I don't think CFLs would have given the same performance especially not for a living room where you really don't want that warm up period.

I have CFLs around the rest of the house, I'll probably upgrade a couple and grab a light meter to test.


@metalphreak
People ask me about LED lighting a lot, since I'm into LED signage, I'm interested in your findings.
Do you mind me asking what price per kw/hr you did the calcs on? Also, did you factor in for energy price rises?
I'm wondering if the industrial markets (I.e warehouses, workshops and factories) are the ones that will make the LED switch first
- Higher bays mean higher replacement cost (if you have to get the access lift out)
- Longer "on" times than domestic
- They probably have poor quality reflectors to begin with
- You could get away with non-diffused tube covers.

I'm assuming the diffused covers simply look nicer and give less glare? I wonder how much more efficient the non-diffused covers are.
 

Offline lilshawn

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2013, 11:54:18 pm »
the only issues i've seen with white LED's is a progressively decaying light output.

i bought some LED bulbs to replace some 12 volt MR16 bulbs. (multiple 5050 SMD chips)

they looked pretty good the first few months, but then the light output decays to the point where you can turn them on  and hardly notice the light level change. there is nothing electrically wrong, the LED's simply don't output light like they did.,

the same issue with some tiny white T5 bulbs. (single 5mm led) hardly output anything now.

any comments or ideas as to why? seems almost like the phosphor is wearing out.  :o
 

Offline bronzies

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 02:29:44 am »
I always love these kinds of videos the best. I can't wait to install LEDs all over my house... when I have a house  :palm: .
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 04:48:06 am »
Bookaboo: typically 25c per kWh based on 50000 hrs of led life before output is at 70% with lights on 12hrs a day 6 days a week. Typically a high end T5 fitting is about $250 in large volume. An led equivalent is close to $500. The LEDs are only about 20% less energy usage so the power savings don't add up to cover the difference over 10years. A fluoro fitting will last well over 10 years whereas the led fittings need to be replaced entirely.

High bays are probably more suitable for led but again you can't easily replace the led module in most of them.

We use led almost exclusively now for downlights and those thin architectural linear lights.

Lots of companies are now doing replaceable led modules for those now. There is a new standard that is slowly being adopted called zhaga. Basically a defined standard for size, shape, driving current etc.

led is superior where you can't utilize an efficient reflector design for fluorescent. Led will take over when fittings are designed for led modules rather than the idea of using "globes" or "tubes" of LEDs to replace existing types of lighting.

On the residential side of things, led is a lot more viable. Led mr16 instead of halogen etc. zumtobel do some nice recessed led lights to replace typical room lights. Nice wide coverage instead of narrow beam. Credos ones available in 9 14 and 26w versions.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 04:52:06 am by metalphreak »
 

Offline GoatZero

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 05:26:27 am »
I just saw this video when it came out and inspired me to put a led strip i had lying around all over my workbench, i also make a little control panel to control the intensity and to turn it on and off from my bed.... (yes im lazy)


the only issues i've seen with white LED's is a progressively decaying light output.


Is this info confirmed? i dont have any info about this, but the times this has happened to me is because to much voltage so i guess the leds just cant take it on the long run, are you sure this didnt happen to you or do you have any source where i can read a bit more avout this "progressively decaying light " you mentioned
 

Offline moemoe

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 06:53:55 am »
I did see the big barcode on the packaging, and thought it looks like on the products for Aldi, and then spotted the text below the QR code. I didn't know they expanded around the globe and there is Aldi down under. They also sold these lights for 20€ last month here in germany: https://www.aldi-sued.de/de/angebote/angebote-ab-donnerstag-19-september/detailseite-kw38-do/ps/p/led-roehre-18-watt/

Btw, for pronounciation: müller licht. Müller is the most common family name in germany, but I can't think of any example for the pronuncation of the ü vowel. Licht is just the german word for light. As I can't think of phonem in the english language with same pronuncation, too, it's probably the best just to listen to http://dict.leo.org/#/search=M%C3%BCller&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on and http://dict.leo.org/#/search=licht&searchLoc=0&resultOrder=basic&multiwordShowSingle=on ;)
https://github.com/maugsburger/
Breadboard Adapters featured in EEVBlog #573 on Tindie
 

Offline NickS

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 08:47:19 pm »
I was checking out these bulbs in Aldi. A teardown would be cool Dave. :)
I didn't get any as I only have a single tube fluro in my house and it isn't used terribly often.

I do have 16 downlights however and replacing the halogens with LEDs has had a massive power change.
560 watts vs 144 watts. They are used an awful lot (only downstairs lighting - massive wtf) and are a very easy change.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 11:52:09 pm »
We have about 35 halogen lights in our house at 50w each. Swapped them out a while back for 10w Phillips master LEDs and they're as bright if not more. Massive reduction in power use. Led > cfl > halogen :)

Offline vk2hmc

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2013, 12:16:54 am »
I just picked up some 40w flouro sized LED tubes from Aldi (Australia, not Austria!) for 24.99 each.

They aren't as good as the previous ones I have used (@AUD38 ea)  or Dave's ones.
The color is some sort of mid white that is the same as the existing flouro's.
I asked around and no one even noticed!

the price is good so I'd though i'd add in for consideration.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 05:52:22 pm »
Just installed some no-name China Export LED B22s around the house.
Before that I did a quick teardown on one of them. Isolated powersupply was properly housed and secured, well put together and plenty of thermal compound. If you watch some of the youtube teardowns there's some shockers out there but these look to be decent.

First impressions are that they kick the arse out of the mixed bag of CFLs I previously had, replacing 20w CFLs with 9w LED and I'm pretty sure I'm getting better light.
Even found that the wife had installed a 60w halogen in the hall (hidden from my beady eye by the lampshade), 9w LED seems to give at least as good an output.
One thing I would say is that it appears at least part of the increase in efficiency comes from the physical shape of the bulbs, like Dave's fluros all most all the light is in the bottom hemisphere, the ceilings are noticeably dimmer.

My light meter is on route so I'll update with some real data and see if it matches my first impressions.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 06:02:25 pm by bookaboo »
 

Offline Jaxx

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 02:57:51 am »
Just installed some no-name China Export LED B22s around the house.
Before that I did a quick teardown on one of them. Isolated powersupply was properly housed and secured, well put together and plenty of thermal compound.

Are there significant heatsinks in these things? As I understand the difficulty with lighting like this becomes heat dissipation at high wattages. I'm here to learn, so I'm no expert.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 03:06:19 am »
First impressions are that they kick the arse out of the mixed bag of CFLs I previously had, replacing 20w CFLs with 9w LED and I'm pretty sure I'm getting better light.

I just replaced almost my entire house with (same colour temp) Aldi 7W, 10W, and 11W LED bulbs from Lifetec. Haven't opened one yet, but my experience was the same, beats the crap out of the CFL's they replace, even the 20W ones. The 7W spot downlights in the hallway are now too bright! No measurements yet though, but the wow factor was obvious.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 09:19:43 am »
Just installed some no-name China Export LED B22s around the house.
Before that I did a quick teardown on one of them. Isolated powersupply was properly housed and secured, well put together and plenty of thermal compound.

Are there significant heatsinks in these things? As I understand the difficulty with lighting like this becomes heat dissipation at high wattages. I'm here to learn, so I'm no expert.

Huge heatsinks.
The 7w bulbs look about the same size as an old incandescent 60w, the 9w bulbs are a little larger.
The 12w bulbs I got are freakishly large for a lightbulb, so large that they would look out of place in a domestic room. The 9w were easily bright enough for any room I had. Didn't even try a 12w bulb as it would have been much too bright.

I'll get all my kit and do some proper analysis over the weekend, I'll also post photos of a couple of teardowns.
 

Offline metalphreak

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 11:40:30 am »
I should do a teardown of one of these Phillips masterled 10W MR16 replacements. They're all plastic on the outside and not a metal heatsink. I heard a buzzing noise one evening coming from one of the lights. I assumed it was an electronic 12V supply fan gone bad - then I remembered that part of the house has the old iron core transformers. Turns out, the LED light itself has a small fan built into it!

Offline Fryguy

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 12:04:01 pm »
I changed my livingroom lights from 35W halogen to 9W LED ---> http://www.toshiba.eu/lighting/eu/Products/reflector-lamps/E-CORE_PAR16_9W/ 
They deliver at least twice the light i had before and i love them .
I bought them from Conrad Electronic here in germany for 14€ per piece .

I also glued 15m white led strip to the walls top edge around my livingroom - 900 leds running at 12V 6A max. powered by a designated PSU with a linear regulator designed to deliver 7,5 - 12,5 V with up to 8A  - that covers the entire useful brightness range .
The led strip eliminates 90% of the shadows in the room making it really soft for the eyes ! TRY IT !

All the other lamps at my place are now fitted with 10-12W high power led bulbs .

Altogether the best lighting system i ever had  :-+

May the forces of evil get confused on their way to your home !
 

Offline NickS

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Re: EEVblog #531 - LAB LED Fluoro Lighting Tube Replacement
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 08:36:27 pm »
A friend said he had problems with radio and digital TV reception with LED (not Aldi) halogen downlight replacement bulbs. Second, do they give the false impression of brightness due to the bright point source of light and do they emit as even and diffuse light that a CFL does. ie are the shadows cast sharper and do you get less even light coverage off axis.
In my place the ground floor is solely lit by downlights (ugh) which got replaced by no name eBay LEDs.

No issues with digital TV at all. I even have a nice 5m coax on the roof to pick it up close from the source. I don't think we have FM issues either but that is harder to tell.

The ground is lit quite well, only slightly more focussed than the old halogens. The roof is darker but that is not a great problem.
You certainly get used to it fast enough.
The led strip eliminates 90% of the shadows in the room making it really soft for the eyes ! TRY IT !
It is on my todo list at some point. Close to the bottom but it is there.  :D
 


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