Author Topic: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag  (Read 50350 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tized

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 35
  • Country: il
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2013, 05:52:26 am »
image of a tester : http://www.teradyne.com/pressRoom/images/UltraFLEX-HD.tif (warning ; 43 megabyte file ! )
that testhead holds 1 chip under test ! if you ook inbetween the operator's arms you see the large plumbing fixtures that pipe liquid nitrogen into the head.. the chip is actually cycled , cold ( -30 degrees , ambient , 25 and hot (125) )

Vincent, do you know by chance why the head unit of the machine is rotatable around an horizontal axis?

The upside-down logo on the lower part of the front panel of the rotating unit indicates that it is 'normal' for the unit to operate in 180 degree orientation. My guess would be to either support two different chip designs alternately/subsequently without requiring down-time for swapping the test head, or to double throughput by using two test heads simultaneously.

The test head will normally be docket to a handler, a machine that feeds the tester units for testing. Different handlers have different docking configurations, so the test head sits on a manipulators that enable it to dock in any configuration. At a placed I worked we had two kinds of handlers; one where the docking was horizontal and the test head would simply "slip" under it. The other handler had vertical docking, so the test head had to be rotated by 90 degrees and then attached.

Some tester can have two test heads, but as far as I know it's a rare configuration. 

For different products you don't have to replace the test head, but just the "Tester Interface Unit" (TIU), which is a bit like the probecard that was shown in the video. Replacing the TIU is a breeze, just pop one off and put the other one on.
 

Offline algorath

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: at
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2013, 03:21:06 pm »
here´s another interesting vid from 2005 from micronas in freiburg, germany

 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6165
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2013, 12:29:31 am »
Probably, if looking in the right corners of the Internet, you could find that software, as students use it to learn the tools of the trade. But no company, self-respecting or otherwise, will dare to use pirated software, this is a very IP sensitive industry.
I've looked through some Chinese IC design forums... I can't read the language but Google Translate gives back rather interesting conversations and links to even more interesting stuff for download.

"What goes on in China, stays in China"...? :scared:
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7064
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2013, 02:02:19 am »
Here is the front-end for the Micronas movie ( Micronas is a finnish company owned by Nokia that bought ITT intermetall from Germany )

These are very good movies. it gives a clear view of what goes on. If you watched Daves video first you will instantly recognize the stuff i sent him.


« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 05:57:44 am by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline A Hellene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 582
  • Country: gr
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2013, 05:36:15 am »
Vincent (aka 'free_electron'),
You da man!

Thank you, very much, for your efforts.
You have my full respect, by dear fellow man.


-George
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 05:38:04 am by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline Dave

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1168
  • Country: si
  • I like to measure things.
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2013, 07:04:03 am »
This was the most interesting mailbag ever. I was glued to my computer screen for the entire 40 minutes. Thanks for providing the goodies, free_electron! :D

Good job on the macro shots, Dave. I know how difficult it can be to get a good macro shot with a camera, let alone a video camera. :-+
<fellbuendel> it's arduino, you're not supposed to know anything about what you're doing
<fellbuendel> if you knew, you wouldn't be using it
 

Offline hikariuk

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 206
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2013, 01:57:50 am »
Favourite part

Did you watch after the credits?

Yes, and I agreed with you entirely :)
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline bitwelder

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: fi
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2013, 02:51:22 am »
Awesome mailbag!
Thanks Dave & Vincent
 

Offline MetraCollector

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Country: cz
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2013, 03:36:17 am »
Very similar DIB board topology to ONSemi boards. I sometimes solder generic boards to prototype it and then belgian ONSemi do the layout and fabricate it.
Sometimes it is very difficult to (de)solder these 16layer 5mm thick fuckers. ;D Weller WECP20 and 450°C isn't enough. |O
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7064
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2013, 10:15:14 am »
IS Hubert De Keyser still there ? That was their board guy when i started there. (back in the days it was called Mietec -> Alcatel microelectronics -> ST for 1 day -> AMIs -> on semi
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline kcozens

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2013, 11:10:58 am »
Thank you Dave, and Vincent, for an amazing video and interesting bits of kit. I was able to see the video in HD so I was amazed at the tiny size of some of those probes. I'd hate to be the one who wires up that probe card. I wonder how you would go about testing the probe card to ensure that the wiring was correct.

That multi-layer PCB isn't that impressive to me. A few years back I did some consulting for an elecctronics company that had their own PCB manufacturing division. I was shown a board in the shape of an H (or capital I) they had made that had 100 (one hundred) layers. I don't remember its exact dimension. It was around 3" side to side, and around 1/4" to 1/2" thick, AFAICR. The whole assembly formed a transformer. Now that was an impressive assembly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 11:15:48 am by kcozens »
 

Offline samc

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #111 on: October 13, 2013, 11:27:08 am »
Fascinating video -- thank you Vincent and Dave!

I've been curious about the silicon fab process, so seeing some of the gear is a treat.

Thank you!
 

Offline 99tito99

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 55
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2013, 03:06:46 pm »
Hi Dave:  Looked at your flickr photos of this beast and you are right, it is down-right pornographic.  Things like this should be shielded from young children and the faint of heart.  I have to go now I'm getting palpitated.  Cheers, Mark * * *
 

Offline glicos

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2013, 10:52:43 pm »
I'm quite surprised by this big circle testing cartridge Dave showed in vid, but still - are you 100% sure that wiring is hand made?
I mean, the possibility of human-related error in this is soooooooo ungodly high, it's seems very unlikely it is done by human. Just imagine if you did all that wiring and then something doesn't work the way it needs, you will lose another month or two finding out where is the problem...
Does anybody know more about this stuff? Is it really something like 400 hand-welded pins? O_O

Yes TNb, it's all handwired. The probecard posted by dave is just one type. This is categorized as "Cantiliver Probe Cards" and the oldest type of probecard. Wait and see MEMS based probe card etc.

As of now, im still connected with probe card manufacturer here in the philippines. Loved to post videos and picture of every stage of probecard manufacturing but need permission from our company.
 

Offline ohmineer

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 42
  • Country: es
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #114 on: October 15, 2013, 05:15:41 am »
Thanks to Dave and Vincent for such an educational video.
I did a course on microelectronics some years ago and had the opportunity to visit a clean room. Obviously, we weren't allowed to enter inside but we saw through the windows how the scientists were working. By that time, I also was impressed about the funny clothing that Dave is wearing in the video.

This video from Intel is quite illustrative too,


 
 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6165
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #115 on: October 16, 2013, 11:02:31 pm »
Try to guess what Dave is saying in these...






:-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28376
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #116 on: October 16, 2013, 11:18:58 pm »
Screen captures of failed youtube Aussie captioning could get their own website!
YoutubeTranslateFails.com  ;D
 

Offline mamalala

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 777
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2013, 05:39:21 am »
They probablay have an army of chinese locked up in the basement who do the translations ;-D At least it sure reads like chinglish...

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline senso

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 862
  • Country: pt
    • My AVR tutorials
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2013, 05:55:05 am »
Sily kid sounds like silicone
wife is wafer
But its funnier un-corrected.
 

Offline MetraCollector

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Country: cz
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #119 on: October 18, 2013, 10:15:02 pm »
IS Hubert De Keyser still there ? That was their board guy when i started there. (back in the days it was called Mietec -> Alcatel microelectronics -> ST for 1 day -> AMIs -> on semi
I forgot to reply ! ;D
I looked in the directory now and Hubert is still there ! However I have never seen him in the email conversation yet.
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7064
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2013, 01:30:44 am »
IS Hubert De Keyser still there ? That was their board guy when i started there. (back in the days it was called Mietec -> Alcatel microelectronics -> ST for 1 day -> AMIs -> on semi
I forgot to reply ! ;D
I looked in the directory now and Hubert is still there ! However I have never seen him in the email conversation yet.
SO you are in the Brno site then ? i was there for a few weeks in the late 1990's to help set up the lab. The guys running the design centre then were Aarnout Wieers and Jacques Bertin.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline shk1d29

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2013, 01:51:42 am »
Hey Dave, have you tried looking for hidden images on the dies/wafers using a microscope? A time consuming task for sure.

Something like:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/04/gallery-silicon-art/


Cheers!
 

Offline ShamilaBW

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2013, 08:08:34 pm »
Thanks Vincent & Dave!!!  :clap:
 

Offline Kirill

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: ru
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2013, 07:53:39 pm »
Why would you de-cap a chip?
e.g. to reverse engineer, like it was done with mifare classic: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/sec08/tech/full_papers/nohl/nohl_html/index.html
You generally don't need to decap RFID chips at all for they are just bare dies glued onto 2 metal pads inside a tag. Mifare is not an exception - you can just cut most of the tags with a scalpel and you get all the internal stuff fully accessible. Sometimes the tags are made of thick paper and it is even simplier than that. 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 07:55:22 pm by Kirill »
 

Offline moemoe

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: de
Re: EEVblog #532 - Silicon Chip Wafer Fab Mailbag
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2013, 07:03:43 pm »
You generally don't need to decap RFID chips at all for they are just bare dies glued onto 2 metal pads inside a tag. Mifare is not an exception - you can just cut most of the tags with a scalpel and you get all the internal stuff fully accessible. Sometimes the tags are made of thick paper and it is even simplier than that.
Did you read the arcticle? I bet you didn't.

It is about reverse engineering the logic circuits inside/on the die and reverse engineer their poor crypto.
https://github.com/maugsburger/
Breadboard Adapters featured in EEVBlog #573 on Tindie
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf