Author Topic: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven  (Read 38762 times)

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Offline berniwa

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2013, 12:25:02 am »
Hey,

I have been using the beta layout reflow oven + controller for several years now (I got an old version of the controller - but it works the same) and I have to say, that the thing never let me down in all those years.

The oven works really fine (also over extended periodes of time) and the controller is simple and easy to use.
If done a lot of boards with the oven including all chip sizes down to large QFN packages (BGA will hopefully follow soon) and board ranging from 10 to 400 parts, all turned out really well.

Some cheap and easy tips:
- Get a piece of Metal Mesh from the local hardware store - the tray is fine for Pizza but not for small PCBs (see picture below)
- Get a spare board and attach the thermal sensor to that board instead of attaching it to the board you are currently soldering
  -> I found it really anoying to attach the sensor to board that already contained solderpaste, so I sacrificed one old PCB.
- Do multiple boards if you need to, but make sure to allign them centered between the two heaters
  -> As dave pointed out it is no convection oven, so there are temperature differences (but it's way better than cheap Infrared ovens from china anyway)

The guys at beta layout are quite nice (met them at serveral faires in germany) and produce amazing quality boards, not that cheap, but ok.
The thing I like about them is that they always deliver on time (what's really important to me) and have a great customer support.
They messed up one of my designs one time (accidently switch a layer) and after reporting it, they delivered a new PCB on the next day (1/2 day production + overnight shipping).

Greets
Berni

 
 

Offline lilshawn

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2013, 01:14:51 am »
You can probably easily swap out the transformer in the housing for a 110v 6v AC transformer and/or adapter. It's just driving a LM7805. Not a big deal.
and with IEC connectors on the input and output, it'll easily plug in any cord from wherever you are from.

Don't order one because it's not available in 110 volts...order one because it's NOT!
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2013, 01:29:59 am »
Quote
Don't order one because it's not available in 110 volts...order one because it's NOT!

As mentioned previously there are increased current considerations for the SSR.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2013, 01:37:48 am »
That temp controller is not very good at all, 7 Degree offset and no decimal points in the reading or offset calibration value. I have previoualy designed thermocouple controllers myself, and you would need to really try hard to mess it up by that much!

Could you please make a follow up video where you trace out the analog part of the controller and check what voltage and temp reference they are using. Are they using the built in 10 or 12 bit ADC? In that case I would expect some white noise generator so that they can oversample and dither the reading.

from the way it acted when left on top of the oven Id wager a guess no cold junction compensation, just stupid opamp directly to the ADC ala cheap chinese soldering iron.

I already posted the datasheet in the video description.

I must be blind, I dont see it, is it inside video annotations or something? (those dont work for me on YT for some reason :/)

ps: Dave you blasphemer, using tablet instead of proper multimeter integrated display? Whats next? Multimeters with no integrated lcd at all? Chris would be proud :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 01:40:18 am by Rasz »
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Offline robrenz

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2013, 01:55:27 am »
I thought I saw the metal tip of the thermocouple touching the pcb copper in the video.
If it was touching would this have effected the reading of the temperature, by being a 3rd dissimilar metal?


The thermocouple bead touching another metal does not affect the reading other than possibly better heat transfer into the thermocouple than just surrounding air.

Offline gxti

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2013, 04:01:18 am »
An isolated bit of metal touching the probe won't affect it but if there's some current path back to the measuring circuit you could have trouble. For example, even if the controller is floating, if you have the RS-232 connected to a PC it will be earth-referenced. This type of problem would result in wildly wrong readings, best case it shorts out half of the probe and you get half the temperature differential you expect. Worst case you get a bias voltage flowing through it and blow up your opamp. So floating is good. But since it's just a little bit off, it's probably not that.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2013, 04:49:50 am »
from the way it acted when left on top of the oven Id wager a guess no cold junction compensation, just stupid opamp directly to the ADC ala cheap chinese soldering iron.
I must be blind, I dont see it, is it inside video annotations or something? (those dont work for me on YT for some reason :/)

Not so, it has CJC. Just expand the video description!
 

Offline trackman44

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2013, 04:58:08 am »
I was wondering, is the oven controller schematic available for download, as in open source ( including the firmware)? Would be nice.

Will
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Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2013, 06:18:44 am »
I have had it on my list to get a T-962A reflow oven.  But that model, while cheap ($420 on eBay), comes with some really bad reviews.  Among them people say, it smells terrible the first few times started up, contains cheap parts, is grounded poorly (safety issue!), the controller sucks (there are various upgrades from third parties to rectify this), and it heats unevenly.  From what I see from this review, you can make a very reasonable reflow oven with what is actually a very good controller at far less than the marginal T-962A costs.  If you care to, you can make it larger, just get a larger oven.  And there are toaster ovens on the market now at very low cost that include a convection fan.  I have one, it works great for pizzas.  I heard Dave mention that the 240V operating voltage is a problem for the USA, but most homes actually have 240V lines here for larger appliances.  Maybe the plug would have to be swapped out.  Not a problem.  I think I am going to have to give this a go once I find a place to source a 240V toaster oven with a convection fan.  I already see some for sale on Amazon for very reasonable prices.
Have You Been Triggered Today?
 

Offline pieco

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2013, 08:36:45 am »
I have used a large sheet of solid copper on the tray between the board and the heating element to give signifigantly better results in a similar setup. Aluminum also worked and was cheaper but didn't develop nearly as pretty of a patina as copper did when heated. :)

Another vote for using a copper sheet under the PCB! Works great.
 

Offline pieco

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2013, 08:59:24 am »
The secret it to use an IR toaster - I have this one - http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-NB-G100P-7-2-Quart-1300-Watt-Infrared/dp/B000063UZV (has been discontinued and they came out with a newer model; not sure what changed).  There is a black & decker one too but that one catches fire a lot. 

The replacement is the NB-GP110P. I have one I've been meaning to try, especially since it appears to have some built in sensors. Meanwhile, I've gotten amazing results with manually using a B&D Infrawave, that has yet to catch fire :)

Quote
I use lead free solder from these guys - unrefriderated shelf life of ~3-4 years from my experience http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
make sure to get their nice plunger.   

Sorry, have to disagree here. Zeph's prices, especially their shipping, is totally out of whack. They charge, on a weight-for-weight basis, more than 2x as other quality paste ($15.50/12g vs. say, $20/35g for ChipQuik). I'll agree that the paste is excellent quality, tho - perhaps some of the best I've tried.

Also - the plunger is total crap. Just awful. Now, I'm biased. See the last mailbag as to why that might be. Suffice to say, there are far, far better widgets out there that are in the same price range.

Quote
And use the smallest tips (red ones).

I would not go below 22ga with their paste, otherwise, you're straining the balls and dispensing flux, and doing it the hard way. Zeph paste is Type 3, so it has at least some particles that cannot push through a smaller tip.
 

Offline wigman27

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2013, 10:22:13 am »
Hey All!

I have been thinking about building my own re-flow oven controller in the past few weeks. Perfect timing Dave!! :-+

This is one that I really liked, http://forum.43oh.com/topic/3980-reflow-oven-booster-pack/.

Its open source and obviously comes with the code. But I was thinking if anyone here would have any suggestions on how best to write the code, obviously the code on the Beta example Dave shows is quite involved but I am mainly concerned with the main code to run the actual program. Would you sample in every cycle? would you adjust the on state at every cycle if required?

I would be really interested to hear people thoughts ;)

Thanks again

Need a website designed? Check out my Australian based web development business www.wigweb.com.au for affordable fixed price packages
 

Offline TheWelly888

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2013, 10:24:11 am »
Yet another informative and interesting video, Dave! So many TV channels to choose from and nothing worth watching so thanks for the video!  :-+

I wouldn't use the toaster to do both food cooking and reflow soldering - the flux fume residue will pollute that pizza, cornish pasty, pie or whatever!

You can do anything with the right attitude and a hammer.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2013, 01:23:59 pm »
Stand the board on some pieces of compressed vermiculite board, available from builders merchants, its used to line combustion chambers so will withstand repeated heating also it will not conduct the heat out of the pcb.
 
 

Offline Rory

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EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2013, 03:13:48 pm »
Isn't vermiculite a form of asbestos?
 

Offline angst7

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Offline Kiril

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #66 on: December 23, 2013, 07:56:43 pm »
Hi everyone,

If we look at the reflow profile for the solder, reflow is done and the temperature is under 175°C after ca. 210 seconds.
With the kit, reflow does not start until after 270 seconds and lasts over 10 minutes (600 seconds). The temperature also stays "forever" above ca. 210 °C (from 322 to at least 430; temp is over 230°C from 344 to at least 430) while in the reflow profile this time is limited to about 30-40 seconds.

So the question is how much this prolonged exposure to high temperature is something to worry about? I can imagine plastic parts could possibly deform slightly when heated, but what about baking the "electrons"? Does anything "bad" happen to component values? Or is this a non-issue in reality, resp. when would it become an issue?

Thanks Dave for showing us how this kit performs for real. Love the EEVblog and have learned a lot from you and the people on the forum.

Kind regards,
Kiril
 

Offline Ment11

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2013, 09:01:42 pm »
Hi
Has anyone here tried a small infrared reflow oven such as  http://www.ebay.com/itm/T962-INFRARED-IC-HEATER-REFLOW-OVEN-SMD-BGA-T-962-d-/260799459468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb8dbf08c

For $245 USD it is about the same cost as this thermal controller+toaster.

I had one of those, and it made my boards look like a piece of toast using their profile for lead free solder. The boards still worked tho, and its pretty quick. I never took it apart, or checked how accurate the temperatures are, but even from outside the build quality was not that good. Also as someone stated before, the smell was absolutely horrible the first time I used it, and it set off fire detectors.
You can overclock anything.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #68 on: December 27, 2013, 06:11:49 am »
Dave, I was in Kmart (in Australia) today and they have a toaster oven for A$35.  It has the same control layout as yours does except I think it claimed 250oC. Would the extra 20oC be useful, assuming of course it is real?

If using a controller, no real difference. It not, well , you might have to be more careful.
 

Offline Winston

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2013, 03:46:50 pm »
If they'd have used a transformer with a primary center tap and a back panel voltage selector switch, or to save money, just a jumper on the PCB, they could have easily made it 230/115V.
..except the SSR would need to handle twice the current for the same wattage
The Sharp S216S02 they use is rated 16A @ 250V and is heat-sinked to the chassis. These ovens are typically rated 1500W.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2013, 05:48:24 pm »
LOL

If anyone in Netherlands wants to have 'the same' as Dave, I stumbled on this

(not for me though, I'll stick to my hot air gun)
 

Offline toomas

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2013, 11:27:35 pm »
Thank you Dave for this video. It got me inspired and I bought one tiny and cheapest possible oven to try if it can be used for reflow soldering. Pictures, measured temperature profiles and other details are here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/el-cheapo-reflow-oven/
 

Offline Tioleco

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2013, 03:20:47 pm »
Can I use the kit in a small oven of 600w and with 9 liters of capacity?
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2013, 04:54:56 am »
Can I use the kit in a small oven of 600w and with 9 liters of capacity?
I dont see why not, but at 600w, it will have a long ramp up time unless it is well insulated.
 

Offline itdontgo

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Re: EEVblog #558 - Beta Layout DIY SMD Thermal Reflow Oven
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2014, 11:56:37 am »
I have T-962A and after many burned boards and partially soldered boards I can now use it to produce perfect repeatable results.  I've made several hundred pre-production boards in that oven.

The biggest problem, as with Dave's new oven, is the base is a solid piece of metal and it conducts all the heat away from the boards (especially 0.8mm PCBs).  To get around this I have some old FR4 boards I use to lift the corners 1.6mm (or sometime 3.2mm if it has a massive copper plane or big Module.  So long as there are no parts where you lift it it will be fine.

Also one of the heaters is better than the other so I have to put the boards towards the back to get it right... which can be helpful if you have lots of copper in one place and less at the other end of the board.  You can more evenly heat it this way.  They're not that shit when you know them and what beats the toaster oven is the cooling fan which cools them after reflow ready for the next batch.

Also you want to run it through once first time before you use it to warm it up!

I'd be concerned using any reflow oven like that in an office.  I take my boards from the office and reflow them in my garage as the fumes put me to sleep!



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