Author Topic: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag  (Read 30361 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2013, 07:43:20 pm »
I think we just threw out heaps of those old bubble-displays while tidying, didn't know they'd be of any interest to anyone  ::)
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Offline deth502

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2013, 07:49:54 pm »
i was surprised to see the apollo board with smd ic's. i didnt think they were in use until the 80's.

so, when did the use of smd components begin?
 

Offline MatCat

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2013, 07:50:39 pm »
His noodley appendage!  I was instantly reminded of Douglas Adams and The Great White Handkerchief.
 

Offline daqq

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2013, 08:08:22 pm »
Neet mailbag!

Dave: The nixie tube could have been made in the 80's - they were made still in those times.

Quote
i was surprised to see the apollo board with smd ic's. i didnt think they were in use until the 80's.
so, when did the use of smd components begin?
For consumer stuff you are generally correct, but in mil, space and special tech it began much sooner. The Saturn board is atleast a decade or two ahead in certain terms of the average tech of that era IMHO.

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Online VK5RC

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2013, 08:34:37 pm »
Long live the Nixie! Almost as good as a 7 segment LED display.
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2013, 08:38:05 pm »
Neet mailbag!

Dave: The nixie tube could have been made in the 80's - they were made still in those times.

Quote
i was surprised to see the apollo board with smd ic's. i didnt think they were in use until the 80's.
so, when did the use of smd components begin?
For consumer stuff you are generally correct, but in mil, space and special tech it began much sooner. The Saturn board is atleast a decade or two ahead in certain terms of the average tech of that era IMHO.

And being a decade or two ahead is typical for military stuff. Killing people seems to be a high motivation factor in tech development.
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Offline TheEPROM9

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2013, 08:42:13 pm »
David you just have to make a Nixie clock or something with those Nixie tubes =-)
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Offline daqq

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2013, 08:43:27 pm »
Quote
And being a decade or two ahead is typical for military stuff. Killing people seems to be a high motivation factor in tech development.
Having an effectively unlimited budget and extra motivation also helps ;)
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Offline notsob

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2013, 09:27:49 pm »
For a run down memory lane, have a look at this Burroughs promo for logic modules.



look at the logic modules around 1.36 minutes - a valve based logic one then a plug in transistor logic module then ICs. And the "huge" disk storage.
 

Offline Switching Power

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2013, 09:50:23 pm »
Numitrons are different from Nixie tubes.

Nixie tubes use a gas discharge like neon bulbs but Numitrons use tiny incandescent filaments like ordinary light bulbs.
So don't put high voltage on Numitrons because they will be destroyed.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2013, 10:15:37 pm »
XMOS StartKit XCORE
I also got one and Im a little baffled. All they have on the website is PR wank and 'look at us we are as cool as arduino' videos :(
They dont even tell you MHz or ram size of the thing :/

I think its this one
https://www.xmos.com/support/documentation?category=xcore&subcategory=xCORE-Analog%20(A)&product=16679
500MHz /8 logical cores, 64KB ram, some DSP instructions (they never mention what those actually are?), some proprietary SERDES you cant reuse?, some USB with undefined speed and no documentation on how to configure?, no mention of any DMA for IO?

Im lost. They have plenty PR BS brochures, but I cant find real documentation :(
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2013, 10:55:52 pm »
Dave - it may be worth trying to get one of the XMOS guys on the Amp Hour, as they have some interesting history back to the Inmos Transputer days .
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Offline madworm

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2013, 11:36:51 pm »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2013, 11:44:56 pm »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
Might be fun to put 16A through it to see what happens....
or at least measure the resistance

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Offline ivan747

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2013, 12:12:36 am »
I think you should pass it on to Mike. He has access to weird and interesting stuff, so this fits his style and knowledge I think.
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Offline ciccio

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2013, 12:21:07 am »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
Might be fun to put 16A through it to see what happens....
or at least measure the resistance
I know what will happen.. My white workbench has a some carbon residue from a burning power cable.
It was supplied with a spare PC power supply,  labeled as a  3 x 0.75 mm2, 10 A,  but when loaded with a less than 1000 VA load it went into flames.
Further investigation revealed it was assembled with 0.30 (or thinner) mm2 wires.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2013, 12:29:59 am »
Well, at least its still copper, just wait until you have these kind of cable, aluminium or whatever metal cores in their disposal that are coated with copper "like" surface.  >:D



Offline Bored@Work

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2013, 12:31:53 am »
Im lost. They have plenty PR BS brochures, but I cant find real documentation :(

It is Transputers Reloaded all over the place. Just as with transputers there are a lot of very bold claims about xcores around. And there are a lot of people still around who don't trust anything remotely related to transputers or the people who had a hand in developing them.
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Offline gemby

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2013, 12:34:13 am »
I think we just threw out heaps of those old bubble-displays while tidying, didn't know they'd be of any interest to anyone  ::)

Huh, throwing away stuff like this is a sin imho, those obsolete stuff does not have real value, but to try it out, learn something, or just hack for fun, it is fantastic. If you do not need it, somebody would be glad to get it, or even pay for it, or at least shipping.
 

Online TiN

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2013, 02:43:24 am »
Those LED displays look like exactly soviet/russian ones back that time, i had a calculator with them :)



And nixie look very close to IN-12 (??-12).
I still have bunch of those, had a nixie clock project for one of customers :)
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Offline ratdude747

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2013, 03:43:11 am »
I have a bunch of 1976 HP 5082-7415 LED bubble displays... I actually used one of them on my Atmel AVR class and Intro to communications final project ...  I attached a picture of the display board I made to drive the display. My communications professor (also an EEVblog fan) liked it so much he actually requested two of my spare displays (which I was happy to supply). Ironically, I sourced the display from another professor, who gave me 3 orgainization stand drawers of things of vintage parts (analog and digital) and a 1963 Heathkit 1012 Scope + manual (works in good condition no less).

Those Nixie tubes are hard to find... high demand, low supply.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 10:26:58 pm by ratdude747 »
 

Offline Winston

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 04:02:54 am »
While the LVDC was impressive for its day, the Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) in the Command Module was even more integrated with flat-pack ICs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer



Note that the AGC was operational in 1966, a mere eight years after this, the first IC:



The Apollo Program effort was absolutely gigantic, greatly advancing technologies in numerous areas simultaneously, something I could best appreciate after watching the official NASA progress reports from that time included on these great DVD sets:

The Mighty Saturns: Saturn V

http://www.spacecraftfilms.com/themightysaturnssaturnv.aspx

The Mighty Saturns: Saturn 1 & 1B

http://www.spacecraftfilms.com/themightysaturnssaturn1and1b.aspx

An example of those quarterly reports, a very early one. Click on the YouTube icon to watch the video on YouTube with channel links to 40 of them on the right.  I could watch them for hours (and did). The beauty of engineering...

« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 04:19:28 am by Winston »
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 04:22:43 am »
I have a Motorola databook from 1972 with the flip chip datasheets in it, along with an old Nat Semi  databook from the same time with a whole lot of chip die shots for hybrid circuits in it. Scanned, but the PDF's are close to 30M each, and my web host will kill me if I link them public.

The TO92 LED's I remember from AM International copiers from the early 1980's ( the small cheap 300kg units that would easily do 40 million copies before you replaced them with another) used with a matching TO92 phototransistor used as paper path sensors, mechanism position sensors and pretty much any application where you would use a low operation force microswitch.

The plus indicator is actually a filament display, you run it off 5V direct from logic. Very nice and very reliable, though I really hated changing those on aircraft equipment because of the wiring loom needing to be cut to get it out then relaced to fit the board back. They were rated for a 100 000 hour operational lifetime, really only failing from vibration but if you have a line of 30 40 year old ones that lifetime is getting pretty close to monthly. they were available NOS from the stores, with 30cm PTFE24 AWG wire leads.

Copper price I can agree on, I get good money for old copper cable at the scrappie, even more ( like $5 per kilo) for bright copper. You can see why it gets stolen.

Drager sensor does Oxygen, CO, CO2, Methane and SO2 detection, and is there to warn if you are in danger. Sort of an electronic canary, just needs electricity instead of birdseed. The oxygen sensors are scary expensive, and have a lifetime of around 6 months after installing, even if not used. Shelf life of around 2 years as well. I used to use them in FMCG packaging, and the cost for them was really painful, even if calibration was very easy by just adjusting the meter to read 20.5% in fresh open air and then checking it was under 3% in a flooded N2 bag ( 3% was the best the nitrogen generator would give at low flow, if you ran at full it would be 5% of O2 in the N2 output, good enough to give a boost in product lifetime without needing preservatives, and a shed load cheaper than having a contract with Afrox or Air Liquide ( and the cost of the generator was the same as a 2 month period of gas delivery) only needing oil free dry compressed air and a regular diet of 0.2 micron filter packs used 2 in series along with an upstream 5 micron oil coalescing filter. waste gas was around 30% oxygen, was looking at a fish tank but just vented in via a silencer. The other sensors are likely either heated pellet or safety fine catalysing gas sensors, operating by heating up a bead in a fine double mesh housing and detecting either a temp rise or fall depending on the gas concentration.
 

Offline calexanian

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 04:41:33 am »
Numitrons are different from Nixie tubes.

Nixie tubes use a gas discharge like neon bulbs but Numitrons use tiny incandescent filaments like ordinary light bulbs.
So don't put high voltage on Numitrons because they will be destroyed.

Correct!
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Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2013, 04:47:42 am »
Huh, throwing away stuff like this is a sin imho, those obsolete stuff does not have real value, but to try it out, learn something, or just hack for fun, it is fantastic. If you do not need it, somebody would be glad to get it, or even pay for it, or at least shipping.

Yes I know it's a sin, but we also had way too many of them. We did keep the best examples. Shipping is expensive here in Norway (sending a small letter to US/AU costs US$6.50 or thereabouts), and packages even more, so we decided it wasn't worth the time. I do love vintage stuff, but not when you inherit a electronics club full of it (from roof to ceiling), with no room to put modern, more interesting gear :P
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Offline RobB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2013, 04:49:10 am »
There is a reason they are called aluminium cans Dave  :palm: and the sample was clearly machined not etched.
 

Offline RobB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2013, 04:54:56 am »
I think you should pass it on to Mike. He has access to weird and interesting stuff, so this fits his style and knowledge I think.

+1 Mike is the king of reverse engineering and fundemental physics
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2013, 05:19:32 am »
I think we just threw out heaps of those old bubble-displays while tidying, didn't know they'd be of any interest to anyone  ::)
Nooooooooooo! My first calc (a Texet IIRC) had a bubble display. Indeed, the first Sinclair digital watch used them I think.

Mark my words - they will become the next Nixie or VFD when the hipsters re-discover them  ;)
 

Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2013, 05:20:28 am »
Nooooooooooo! My first calc (a Texet IIRC) had a bubble display. Indeed, the first Sinclair digital watch used them I think.

Mark my words - they will become the next Nixie or VFD when the hipsters re-discover them  ;)
Maybe I should try to dig them up then :-P
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Offline calexanian

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2013, 06:45:27 am »
An older gentleman I knew who just recently passed used to make basically 7 segment displays with neons in them, and later they switched to LED's. It was a nice aluminum cube with flat lenses and sectioned off areas inside and backfilled with clear resin. They looked very nice and durable, but when genuine 7 segment displays became affordable they stopped making them.
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Offline Steffen

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2013, 07:04:43 am »
Have seen the scene with the power cord. Totally out of spec. even with contact resistance about 1.x Ohms for all three wires it's out of VDE regulations. Device and wiretests for VDE 0701/0702 test the PE path with up to 25A for a standard safetyclass I 3,6 kVA Device and the PE connection has to be below 0,3 Ohms below 5m length. Add 0,1 Ohm per additional 7,5m for specified boundaries (Max. 1 Ohms). Sorry, I don't know the origin of this cord, but the EU has to be more strict about this. Theses power cords can cause real problems like fire or injuries. The EU or the Federal Republic of Germany has to insure that thoes wires can never pass our borders. The saftety logos are fake as usual.
 

Offline Len

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2013, 10:38:42 am »
robrenz should be the last person to get the LVDC board, so he can restore it to pristine condition. :)
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2013, 11:10:25 am »
Very interesting mailbag.

I suspect the PCB may have been made by IBM. It looks similar to some boards that also had DTL in them in that era. IBM created the computer used in Apollo 11, so maybe the one in the mailbag an IBM developed board. That same Apollo 11 computer technology was used in the IBM Series/1, a system I really  enjoyed working on in the early 1980's.

The Series/1 was an incredibly flexible machine employing open ended architecture. The applications were extremely varied - overnight money market communications interface at the major banks, Telecom directory assistance, hotel management, and processing for the oil industry to name a few.

The smelliest application was a big laundry company in Melbourne that washed hospital bed linen. The Series/1 was used to count dirty bedsheets as that were thrown down a shute. I have to literally run holding my breath to get the the machine to work on it, especially in the summer. :phew:

The strangest (and second smelliest) application was at the Howard Florey Institute at Melbourne University. The Series/1 was connected up to a number of sheep to measure hypertension via the salt content in their flesh.



 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2013, 11:29:09 am »
The LED with 20mA through it is probably not defective. The early ones from before about 1973 were very inefficient compared to today. Remember back to the late 70's... your standard off the shelf red LED needed 15-20mA to glow decently. I am surprised the bubble LEDs used so little current though. Those LED digital watches using bubble LED's chewed though batteries.

Recently I was experimenting with an ultra high brightness blue LED. I found that even 50uA still made the thing glow dimly! These days, 1mA is usually enough for a debug indicator on a PCB.
 

Offline steves

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2013, 11:44:52 am »
How about a countdown timer using a Nixie and with the Saturn chips in the control logic?
 

Offline wilheldp

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2013, 12:53:14 pm »
My suggestion for the LVDC board is:

Fran - Originator
Dave - Further deconstruction
Mike - Xray, further deconstruction
Ben Krasnow - SEM, further deconstruction
PhotonicInduction - See how it handles 10kV
 

Offline JoannaK

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2013, 01:31:45 pm »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
Might be fun to put 16A through it to see what happens....
or at least measure the resistance

220v/16A on a skimpy wire like that... I'd expect to see something more in line with Photoninduction's videos.. Aka smokin and burn carpet.

PS: what's the idea with those floor-sized carpets Brits seem to love? Ain't those hard to keep clean etc?
 

Offline 99tito99

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2013, 03:07:19 pm »
Hi Dave,

How about pulling the wires from that One Hung Low plug and send 250V at 16A and see if you get some Chinese smoke.

Cheers,
Science-Mark
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Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2013, 03:43:59 pm »
PS: what's the idea with those floor-sized carpets Brits seem to love? Ain't those hard to keep clean etc?

Joanna in the English speaking world we call those "floor sized" carpets wall-to-wall carpets. Yes they are very popular, and yes they are very filthy. You started to see them become very common in North America in the mid 1960's. It was a way for poor and low middle class people to feel they were living the luxous, and for builders of cheap commodity tract housing to equip the new housing supply with the tacky look their tasteless moron customers demanded. Every house in Canada built    in the seventies came with shag carpet in the living room, and sometimes in all the other rooms except the kitchen. Think about shag bathrooms with men and boys pissing and dribbling all over!  :palm:

They are not only hard to clean they are impossible to keep clean. Oh sure there are an endless number of fly by night carpet cleaning companies which will hound and pester you with unsolicited advertising and the do it your-selfer can rent steam cleaners at any home-depot type place, but these cleaners are just a fiction. Once you steam clean, and you need to do it over and over, you get to the point were the rinse water sucked out of the carpet is a pale brown. That is as good as it gets, the remainder of the dirt is permanently bonded in the fibers and now you have a layer of detergent residue which means new dirt clings that much better/faster than before. :palm: :palm:

Once your dog does this: on your new carpet, its all over for that one.

 

Offline warp_foo

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2013, 04:20:05 pm »
My suggestion for the LVDC board is:

Fran - Originator
Dave - Further deconstruction
Mike - Xray, further deconstruction
Ben Krasnow - SEM, further deconstruction
PhotonicInduction - See how it handles 10kV

I'd vote for this!
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Offline RupertGo

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2013, 04:23:55 pm »
The story of Monsanto and LEDs is fascinating. The company was the first to mass-produce LEDs, mostly because it was really interested in selling phosphorous-compound materials (still is, as phosphates) and wanted to grow the market. It got into bed with HP, as test equipment was the obvious market for data displays back then, but it didn't really work out.

Here's a good take http://datamath.org/Display/Monsanto.htm on the story, including stuff on Nick Holonyak, father of the LED and much more besides.

Monsanto got out of LEDs in 1979; it just didn't fit with its business and competition by then was fierce.
 

Offline steves

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2013, 05:23:10 pm »
My suggestion for the LVDC board is:

Fran - Originator
Dave - Further deconstruction
Mike - Xray, further deconstruction
Ben Krasnow - SEM, further deconstruction
PhotonicInduction - See how it handles 10kV

I'd vote for this!

Yeah, and then Jeri could make replacements for the popped ones.
 

Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2013, 05:32:20 pm »
My suggestion for the LVDC board is:

Fran - Originator
Dave - Further deconstruction
Mike - Xray, further deconstruction
Ben Krasnow - SEM, further deconstruction
PhotonicInduction - See how it handles 10kV
You should have Laina in there too, to talk about all the brilliant people who have worked on this  ;)
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2013, 05:50:20 pm »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
Might be fun to put 16A through it to see what happens....
or at least measure the resistance

A friend once bought an el-cheapo soldering/desoldering station on eBay from Hoo Flung Dung.

It appears Dave's cable was made of the same crap (excuse the pun) as that in my friend's soldering station. My friend had cut the mains plug to put an Aussie mains 3-pin plug on the end. It was not copper wire but some cheap alloy that you could not solder to. Very flimsy. I replaced the cable... and had to overhaul the machine. It was full of dry joints and the mains active wire inside almost touched the frame, which had a dodgy earth terminal!!!!

No compliance labelling.
No quality control.
No common sense.
No brains.

Who checks these goods coming in?

The Australian government has lost control in stopping such dangerous and shoddy goods coming here from third world countries like communist China via eBay. I dare say other developed countries might have the same problem with the importation of this type of crap from eBay.




 



 


Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2013, 09:16:07 pm »
For a run down memory lane, have a look at this Burroughs promo for logic modules.



look at the logic modules around 1.36 minutes - a valve based logic one then a plug in transistor logic module then ICs. And the "huge" disk storage.

Brilliant. Thanks for the post! In those days every man wore a suit and a tie in the computing industry in Australia. Today, suits and ties have been replaced by largely casual dress codes... a sign of the times I guess.

The video reminded me a triode-pentode valve with resistors and capacitors integrated into the glass envelope that I have around here somewhere. It was used (if I recall correctly) in an either an old IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreting Machine or maybe an 082 card sorter as one bit memory.

I would argue integrating the passives into the valve was the world's first integrated circuit, probably invented by IBM (it was an IBM brand valve), without any silicon except that in the glass.

If find it, I'll post it to Dave Jones for his mailbag.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 09:18:27 pm by VK3DRB »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2013, 09:36:28 pm »
Passives inside glass valve envelopes date back to the 1920s
http://electricstuff.co.uk/loewe.html

Later, there were also all-glass memory and A-D converters
http://electricstuff.co.uk/glassadc.html
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Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2013, 10:04:35 pm »
Huh, throwing away stuff like this is a sin imho, those obsolete stuff does not have real value, but to try it out, learn something, or just hack for fun, it is fantastic. If you do not need it, somebody would be glad to get it, or even pay for it, or at least shipping.

I managed to save two of them from the trashbin, two Itron fg410e2 Vacuum fluorescent tubes, originally specced in 1978. I haven't been able to test if they work yet.
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2013, 10:36:46 pm »
I just found the maintenance manual for the LVDC boards:

Part 1:
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume1-GeneralDescriptionAndTheory.pdf

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume2-MaintenanceData.pdf

More docs for the Saturn Project.
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/


THANKS!!!!!! What a find. I was right... it was an IBM card. They never used industry standard numbers on their chips until they produced the  PC came along.

As you can see, it was very well documented. The technical description is excellent.

IBM documented their mainframes really well. They never used standard logic symbols. Everything was a block and the libraries of technical manuals were huge.
 

Offline BjornR1989

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2013, 11:19:04 pm »
Hey Dave,

yes, the wire is too thin. But I have a suspicion that it isn't even copper. Did you notice the springy-ness of the leads? And the resistance is way too high as well.
Might be fun to put 16A through it to see what happens....
or at least measure the resistance

220v/16A on a skimpy wire like that... I'd expect to see something more in line with Photoninduction's videos.. Aka smokin and burn carpet.

PS: what's the idea with those floor-sized carpets Brits seem to love? Ain't those hard to keep clean etc?

Seeing Dave hold a German/Dutch/Belgian/French plug has gotten my attention ("I recognize that plug!").
Cheap Chinese power adapters come with cheap cables. I pulled one apart by trying to unplug it. The plastic breaks and the cable can't bend even 3 times before it falls apart.
Oh, ofcourse these cables can't handle 10, nevermind 16 ampères.

Youtube: Minderwertiges Kaltgerätekabel mal wirklich mit 10A belasten
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 11:21:58 pm by BjornR1989 »
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2013, 11:31:24 pm »
I just found the maintenance manual for the LVDC boards:

Part 1:
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume1-GeneralDescriptionAndTheory.pdf

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LaboratoryMaintenanceInstructionsForLVDC-Volume2-MaintenanceData.pdf

More docs for the Saturn Project.
http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/


THANKS!!!!!! What a find. I was right... it was an IBM card. They never used industry standard numbers on their chips until they produced the  PC came along.

As you can see, it was very well documented. The technical description is excellent.

IBM documented their mainframes really well. They never used standard logic symbols. Everything was a block and the libraries of technical manuals were huge.
IBM was the second largest publisher.  The first was the US government.
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Today, only 26,000 remain.
 

Offline seth13699

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2013, 11:51:22 pm »
THANKS!!!!!! What a find. I was right... it was an IBM card. They never used industry standard numbers on their chips until they produced the  PC came along.

As you can see, it was very well documented. The technical description is excellent.

IBM documented their mainframes really well. They never used standard logic symbols. Everything was a block and the libraries of technical manuals were huge.

This documentation is well known to exist but if you look closely there is no schematic to be found. At all.

Even worse is on the software side. Not even a single page of source code is known (even early revisions).

We only know it was coded in FORTRAN by "The Germans" (the Von Braun team) and some tidbits can be found
here and there. Like some of the flight equations & performance described in "Description and Performance of the Saturn Launch Vehicle's Navigation, Guidance, and Control System" by Walter Haeussermann:

http://klabs.org/history/reports/tn_d-5869_1970023342.pdf

Now compare this with what we know about the AGC:

H/W:

http://klabs.org/richcontent/Misc_Content/AGC_And_History/PartsAnalysis/PartsAnalysis.htm

http://klabs.org/history/ech/agc_schematics/index.htm

S/W:

http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.html#Software_manuals_and_listings

and the difference is apparent.

It is believed that IBM suppressed all info about the LVDC because all later ICBM digital flight control systems
are based on it...

 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2013, 12:11:58 am »
Passives inside glass valve envelopes date back to the 1920s
http://electricstuff.co.uk/loewe.html

Later, there were also all-glass memory and A-D converters
http://electricstuff.co.uk/glassadc.html

The oldest machines I ever worked on was made by the Computing Tabulating Recording Company, which later became IBM. The machine was built prior to 1924 and still operating commercially here in Melbourne in the 1980's sorting punch cards. This predecessor to the 082 Card Sorter had Queen Anne type legs on it. It was a memorable experience to debug such an ancient piece of equipment. It is possible the machine has one of those integrated valves in it - I cannot recall.

The punch card was only 30 or so years old when the machine was built, created for the 1890 US census by a genius named Herman Hollerith, the great grandfather of modern data processing.
 

Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2013, 03:38:49 am »
David you just have to make a Nixie clock or something with those Nixie tubes =-)

I think I've just added that to my list of things to learn how to do...
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2013, 06:25:27 am »
Im lost. They have plenty PR BS brochures, but I cant find real documentation :(

It is Transputers Reloaded all over the place. Just as with transputers there are a lot of very bold claims about xcores around. And there are a lot of people still around who don't trust anything remotely related to transputers or the people who had a hand in developing them.

I dont even care abut this aspect of the product. Dev board seems to be targeting simple usage scenarios, no stacking/clustering. I just wanted some documentation, but all I can find on their website is marketing material camouflaged as documentation pdfs. You know its bad when website dedicated to the dev board doesnt even mention clock speed.
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Offline Jonas_H

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2013, 07:18:49 am »
I'm surprised you even had a 0.5 mm² cable lying around, where did it came from? I couldn't find anything for the mains rated that low here, even the charger to the electric razor that's supposed to draw 55 mA and have a 2.5 A plug has a (permanently attached) 0.75 mm² cable. And we have 230 V here too, so it's not like we need thicker wiring.
 

Offline madworm

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2013, 08:22:43 am »
The cable was composed of 20 strands of 80µm diameter. Effective conductor area: 0.1mm². Copper-coated stainless steel. 1m of that wire had a resistance of 1.6Ohm, but it should have been 180mOhm (pure copper).



Mind how the strands don't want to stay bent. Pretty atypical for copper.

What's interesting is that the wire came as part of a pretty decent laptop  power supply.  That survived shorting the output for long time, output voltage stays stable independent of load, almost no ripple. All fine.

The cable would be tolerable if it only were used with that laptop brick (50W-ish), but having a plug that fits into a lot of higher-power devices... not so good.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 08:25:25 am by madworm »
 

Offline open loop

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2013, 09:18:55 am »
Looking at that power cable and Madworm's interesting post made me think of an incident that happened 1 mile away from me...

One of our local pubs (the Griffin at Reading in Caversham) was badly fire damaged first thing Christmas eve, half the bar was missing and cables hanging from the ceiling and very serious smoke damage where you cant see into the windows, in short a big mess. The killer was that the pub had a full lunch booking and Christmas lunch and evening bookings. Not to mention the refurbishment that was done less than 2 years ago... :'(

Fortunately they managed to move everyone to anther premises for Christmas eve (don't know about Christmas day). The cost is going to be at least 100 thousand pounds considering refit and loss of earnings.

Apparently the cause was one of the bar tills but you have to wonder what actually was faulty... I don't think they will let me investigate. It now down to the loss adjuster of the insurance company to decide the next step.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/fire-destroys-half-bar-caversham-6444201

 

Offline maeffju

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2013, 09:39:34 am »
Very cool, to encounter some familiar devices, far away in the hands of Dave the crazy aussi bloke... ;)

By chance I happen to be an electronic engineering student, working at Dräger in Lübeck.  :D
I'm working there as a "dualer-student" (something like dual course of studies in english) which means that im studying normally, and then, in each term break I get to work in one of Drägers different departments.
From the end of January on I'm going to spend some weeks in the "portable gas detection instruments" department, where I for sure will encounter the followup-modell of your Multiwarn - which by the way in deed is outdated and yes!, quite expensive when it comes to repair or replacement parts.
There is a widespread range of instruments for mobile (and as well stationary) gas detection of which many can easily cost 1000+ bucks.

Maybe you're interested to know, that those instruments are  assembled in Lübeck, and the electrochemical gas-detection sensors you will encounter during the teardown (and you already saw under that NOT rotating cover ;) ) are developed and produced by Dräger in Lübeck as well.

Looking forward to the teardown and Daves opinion on our high quality gas detection instruments! ;)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 09:47:38 am by maeffju »
 

Offline johnh

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag - another old seven segment leds
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2013, 02:51:44 pm »
A neighbor was throwing out some old 80's hi-fi gear for one of the bi-yearly hard-collections.

I can't resist picking stuff up to see if there is anything useful to recycle, started as a teenager

I noticed the display had some pcb material as base. So I desoldered one and pulled it apart.

It's a Sanyo SL-160N  7 segment display.  You can see the individual leds are bonded to the pcb.
 

Offline JoannaK

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2013, 09:15:57 am »
PS: what's the idea with those floor-sized carpets Brits seem to love? Ain't those hard to keep clean etc?

Joanna in the English speaking world we call those "floor sized" carpets wall-to-wall carpets.

Thanks. Being non native, one tend to miss plenty of words like this... In Finnish, those are called 'kokolattiamatto' .. (whole floor carpet).

Quote
Yes they are very popular, and yes they are very filthy. You started to see them become very common in North America in the mid 1960's. It was a way for poor and low middle class people to feel they were living the luxous, and for builders of cheap commodity tract housing to equip the new housing supply with the tacky look their tasteless moron customers demanded. Every house in Canada built    in the seventies came with shag carpet in the living room, and sometimes in all the other rooms except the kitchen. Think about shag bathrooms with men and boys pissing and dribbling all over!  :palm:

Shag bathroom.. Sounds downright dirty.. and at a more than one way.  ^-^
 

Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2013, 10:42:26 am »
I tried firing up the VFD's I could find, I managed to get the filament glowing, but no response on any of the segments :-/ I guess I'll have to do some more digging when I get my vacation.

Shag bathroom.. Sounds downright dirty.. and at a more than one way.  ^-^
Those were common here in Norway too. I even saw shag toilet seat covers when I was a kid (both the lid and the ring)   O0
But I guess they are more important in a country where people walk barefoot  ;)
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2013, 03:54:22 pm »
Dave,

You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//




« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:15:53 pm by VK3DRB »
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2013, 04:35:20 pm »
Dave,

You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//

I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

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Offline c4757p

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2013, 04:38:06 pm »
Dave,

You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//

I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

Proof that there is no god: Dave Jones walked into a church and was not struck by lightning ;)
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Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2013, 05:05:57 pm »
Dave,

You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//

I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

Proof that there is no god: Dave Jones walked into a church and was not struck by lightning ;)


Nah, you're thinking Zeus.

The New Testament God is a nice guy. Now the Old Testament God, his preferred way of getting rid of people is drowning.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2013, 05:11:37 pm »
He likes good music on a good sound source.

@JoannaK, I washed a piece of industrial carpet during a service break at work, and after 20 minutes it was still dumping dark brown coffee coloured water. Changed to hot water and softened the carpet adhesive, scraped it off the steel base and currently the new pieces are bonding on to the steel. Old ones went into the bin wet and somewhat smelly. Did find out that the old ones were light grey on the one corner that came somewhat clean.
 

Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2013, 09:28:05 pm »
Dave,

You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//

You can enjoy religious music without believing or even agreeing with the religion.  I have a large amount of religious music simply because it's pleasant to listen to.
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2013, 09:31:00 pm »
I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

I actually like churches. I like the architecture and the extravagance, I have been into many of the worlds best, including the vatican on good friday!   :o
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2013, 09:34:08 pm »
You infer in the video you hate religion and yet you went to an organ recital in a church in Lubeck? :-//

I was invited by my hosts who took me on a trip to Lubek from Hamburg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_Church,_L%C3%BCbeck
But if I was in Lubek on my own I would have had a look myself anyway.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2013, 09:35:51 pm »
You can enjoy religious music without believing or even agreeing with the religion.  I have a large amount of religious music simply because it's pleasant to listen to.

It wasn't really religious music, as it was just the organ. I have no idea what was being played, but if the choir broke out and started singing hymns I'd be reaching for the barf bag.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2013, 09:37:35 pm »
He likes good music on a good sound source.

Actually the acoustics were pretty awful! But that kinda added to the "wamth" of the sounds. Gotta love deliberate distortion.
 

Offline Kjetil

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2013, 09:40:26 pm »
Those organs are brilliant works of engineering as well, if you ever find yourself in a church with some spare time ask them if you can have a look inside  :-+
I believe I'm about as religious as Dave appears to be, but I still love looking at and photographing old churches because they are so intricately built. They also represent the majority of old buildings around here, everything else has been replaced..
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2013, 12:18:39 am »
Those organs are brilliant works of engineering as well, if you ever find yourself in a church with some spare time ask them if you can have a look inside  :-+
I believe I'm about as religious as Dave appears to be, but I still love looking at and photographing old churches because they are so intricately built. They also represent the majority of old buildings around here, everything else has been replaced..

St Peter's Basilica was largely funded by ripping poor and ignorant people off by selling indulgences. In stark contrast check out the life of Giovanni di Pietro di Bernardone for the real deal. He saw far more wonder in nature's beauty than that created by man. Mind you, he didn't get a chance to program an Atmel or PIC microcontroller, either.
 

Offline deth502

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2013, 12:24:14 am »

St Peter's Basilica was largely funded by ripping poor and ignorant people off

isint that the general basis of all religion??
 

Offline apelly

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2013, 01:20:07 am »
including the vatican on good friday!   :o
Superior queue stamina my friend. Superior.

I couldn't handle the queue on a normal day when I was there recently.
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Offline JoannaK

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2013, 02:42:35 am »
I tried firing up the VFD's I could find, I managed to get the filament glowing, but no response on any of the segments :-/ I guess I'll have to do some more digging when I get my vacation.

Shag bathroom.. Sounds downright dirty.. and at a more than one way.  ^-^
Those were common here in Norway too. I even saw shag toilet seat covers when I was a kid (both the lid and the ring)   O0
But I guess they are more important in a country where people walk barefoot  ;)

I have seen some toilet set covers that are like techicolor wild animals. Thankfully those are a lot easier to replace than walltowall shag.

Well.. We do have these amazing things like insulation and triple windows.. So indoos tend to keep comfy 20C or so even winter time..
 

Offline Frantone

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2013, 04:05:38 am »
I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

I actually like churches. I like the architecture and the extravagance, I have been into many of the worlds best, including the vatican on good friday!   :o

I agree - I too love the architecture of churches.  Even being an atheist I always find myself in a church at least once a year for any one of many reasons that have nothing to do with my own views.
 

Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2013, 08:38:23 am »
You can enjoy religious music without believing or even agreeing with the religion.  I have a large amount of religious music simply because it's pleasant to listen to.

It wasn't really religious music, as it was just the organ. I have no idea what was being played, but if the choir broke out and started singing hymns I'd be reaching for the barf bag.

This is a major benefit of having most it in a language you can't understand :)  I think Handel's Messiah is the only religious work I have English.
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2013, 11:23:58 am »
I noticed that too. I remember trying to visualize him walking in to the church.  :-DD

I actually like churches. I like the architecture and the extravagance, I have been into many of the worlds best, including the vatican on good friday!   :o

I agree - I too love the architecture of churches.  Even being an atheist I always find myself in a church at least once a year for any one of many reasons that have nothing to do with my own views.

By the original definition, the church is made of people, not buildings. It was derived from the koine Greek word ekklesia. Most secular people equate the church to buildings and maybe the clergy. The term has been distorted over the centuries.

I suspect most electronics engineers and technicians are atheists - certainly in Australia. Only a small few I know profess to believe in God. On the US dollar is printed "In God We Trust". Those who have pocketed most of it seem to ignore the fine print. So what people believe and what they say can be two different things.

Hey, I like your audio guitar stuff. Very creative (or evolved) enclosures! Cool!

« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:29:15 am by VK3DRB »
 

Offline dentaku

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2013, 11:59:46 am »
I love the look of those bubble displays. I have a few big ones but here's a 3 digit one I hooked up yesterday after watching this video.
I actually never tested it before. It's easy to connect to breadboard because it's just like a 12 pin DIP unlike the big ones that have some sort of edge/card connector.
I also have an Archer ISE DISPLAY TUBE RS#276-065 still in the original package $1.79 marked down to 99cents.
I guess I'll have to look up the datasheet for it and see if it lights up.
 

Offline doc

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2013, 04:41:20 pm »
My suggestion for the LVDC board is:

Fran - Originator
Dave - Further deconstruction
Mike - Xray, further deconstruction
Ben Krasnow - SEM, further deconstruction
PhotonicInduction - See how it handles 10kV

I'd vote for this!
I think they are great but before you send if off to Mike, there are two places in Australia first:
  • The Australian Space Design Competition is in Brisbane on the 18th - 19th of January at St Leo 's College at the University of Queensland and I think you would inspire more than a few teenagers with it there. The team that wins that round will go to the world competition in the the US later in 2014.
  • In Victoria Aus we have The Victorian Space Science Education Centre www.vssec.vic.edu.au at Strathmore (Suburb of Melbourne) which I think would love it have it it for a week or so.
( In the interest of full disclosure my son Jack attends Strathmore Secondary College where VSSEC is located, and his team is in the finals in Brisbane.)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 05:25:53 pm by doc »
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: EEVblog #561 - Mailbag
« Reply #83 on: December 31, 2013, 02:26:15 am »

 builders of cheap commodity tract housing to equip the new housing supply with the tacky look their tasteless moron customers demanded.

Going off topic, but whatever :p   

I'm generally irritated by how things that are cheaper, faster, and easier for contractors to put together housing get pushed as better and become 'standard' and expected. 

It hasnt been for the past 5-10 years that asphalt shingles have started to come with 40-50 year warranties, getting them on par with steel roofs, and older roofing methods. Obviously slate, copper and whatnot are quite costly due to lots of manual labor and expensive materials, but there is concrete roofing tile, which is way more durable, etc...

Textured ceilings over proper drywall work, fiberglass shower inserts (with seams which the caulk rots out and still leaks) instead of actually tiling it correctly, vinyl siding instead of brick, fiberglass bat insulation over spray foam (this one is debatable, but you can still get R-20 in a 2x4 wall instead of R-13).  Various water pipe technologies (QWEST/polybutlene which actually ended up with a class action lawsuit and getting houses re-plumbed because it was garbage)  Aluminum branch wiring in the 70's 

And the 'good stuff' would be cheaper if it were more common and it wasnt a specialty to get it used/installed  :rant:
 


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