EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on May 09, 2014, 12:37:08 am
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Dave attended the Cebit 2014 event in Sydney at Homebush Olympic Park. Here are some highlights.
The EX¹ the worlds first PCB printer. It prints silver conductive ink onto FR4, paper, mylar, or many other types of substrate.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cartesianco/the-ex1-rapid-3d-printing-of-circuit-boards (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cartesianco/the-ex1-rapid-3d-printing-of-circuit-boards)
GoFar, a wireless car monitoring startup.
The University of Newcastle Robotics group NuBots:
http://www.newcastle.edu.au/research-and-innovation/centre/engineering-built-environment/newcastle-robotics-laboratory (http://www.newcastle.edu.au/research-and-innovation/centre/engineering-built-environment/newcastle-robotics-laboratory)
Showcasing the robots use in the RoboCup challenge.
EEVblog #614 - Cebit 2014 Highlights (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwAhluh7MUE#ws)
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I wonder how strong do these silver traces stick to the base material. Will this printed circuit be repairable?
And, eventually, what do they say about printing over a solder mask as well?
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I wonder how strong do these silver traces stick to the base material. Will this printed circuit be repairable?
And, eventually, what do they say about printing over a solder mask as well?
It's only ever going to ever be for quick prototypes, so solder mask isn't really needed.
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I wonder how strong do these silver traces stick to the base material. Will this printed circuit be repairable?
And, eventually, what do they say about printing over a solder mask as well?
I have actually played with the prototype boards from a while back, the stickyness seemed to be extremely dependent on the substrate. At the time, the paper was definitely strong enough to withstand anything that FR4 could. And you can stick the paper on a sheet of plastic for more rigidity. My interest is in experimenting with the device to create controlled impedance traces and funky shaped PCB antennae. One could potentially even make the system closed loop; measure the resistance as you print and then optimise.
But then again, Ariel is a friend of mine and I am backer #1, so I'm a little biased ;)
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That GoFar is neat, although my inner pedant was activated at 16:04 by "breaking"..
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That GoFar is neat, although my inner pedant was activated at 16:04 by "breaking"..
My pedant is annoyed by your spelling of braking. :-DD
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Only one questions:
What Dave was watching, a few seconds before?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-614-cebit-2014-highlights-download/?action=dlattach;attach=93024;image)
:-DD
Note: I deleted the second part, I found it funny at first, but it is not.
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First: What Dave was watching, a few seconds before?
You asked.
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You asked.
:-DD
I just hope that this does not create any misunderstandings.
If that bothers to someone I delete it immediately.
Thanks Dave. ;)
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That GoFar is neat, although my inner pedant was activated at 16:04 by "breaking"..
My pedant is annoyed by your spelling of braking. :-DD
Here, have a free [sic] ::)
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I do not like that barstool design, as most are way too cheaply made, and tend to break at the base where the spun steel joins the leg.
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Dave, do you still have that big HP inkjet plotter? I foresee an ink change on that one coming soon to change 2 of the print heads to silver nitrate in water and Citric acid in water, both adjusted to equal molarity so you can print your own PCB's.
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That GoFar is neat, although my inner pedant was activated at 16:04 by "breaking"..
My pedant is annoyed by your spelling of braking. :-DD
Pay attention in the back.
So you didn't see the video (16:04) then.. that's how the GoFar app spells it...
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Maybe it's intentional. You are breaking your budget by braking too often. ;D
The PCB printer looks really promising. I must say, I really like the guy's enthusiasm, you can just see he loves his work.
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Being able to print out a circuit is great for prototyping. I hope it just keeps getting better and more affordable but I have to say it sure looks ugly close up :)
I also don't know why you'd bother using paper even for a prototype.
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At first I thought: "Has Dave been to Hanover (Germany) in March this year and made a late upload of his visit?" But then he was in front of an unknown building and told about Sidney and so on. Up to this point I thought, that the CeBIT is only present in Hanover, because it's one of the worlds biggest IT fairs so far. It's interesting to know, that such events are also present on other continents.
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When they first said they made a PCB printer I though about a different kind of device - "Desktop Board House" - a small device with size from that of a desktop laser printer up to a big office copier that can manufacture small or medium size (paper size for reference) high quality boards in small quantities using the same mechanical and photochemical processes that a regular board house uses to manufacture PCBs in huge quantities.
Imagine this: you click "Print" button in your EDA, it sends GERBER files to the printer, after few hours your PCB is ready! Real FR4, 2+ layers, not a paper or whatever.
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Was it really all controlled by an Arduino board? That part seemed to be too quick and not a real clear shot.
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Having used the LPKF for years, the main problem is to get proper double layer boards and then get connectors soldered on both sides. The way LPKF implements through hole plating is cumbersome... Still neat for prototyping, but what happens when Cartesian go bust, will the ink cartridge be possible to refill?
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This was a very interesting video, I really liked the interviews!
Dave should invite startups to his lab. Tearing into a gadget while the original designer comments on the design desicions, compromises, prototypes, manufacturing headaches etc. How cool would that be?
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At first I thought: "Has Dave been to Hanover (Germany) in March this year and made a late upload of his visit?" But then he was in front of an unknown building and told about Sidney and so on. Up to this point I thought, that the CeBIT is only present in Hanover, because it's one of the worlds biggest IT fairs so far. It's interesting to know, that such events are also present on other continents.
Funny, that's exactly what I thought as well :)
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I wonder how strong do these silver traces stick to the base material. Will this printed circuit be repairable?
And, eventually, what do they say about printing over a solder mask as well?
I have actually played with the prototype boards from a while back, the stickyness seemed to be extremely dependent on the substrate. At the time, the paper was definitely strong enough to withstand anything that FR4 could. And you can stick the paper on a sheet of plastic for more rigidity. My interest is in experimenting with the device to create controlled impedance traces and funky shaped PCB antennae. One could potentially even make the system closed loop; measure the resistance as you print and then optimise.
But then again, Ariel is a friend of mine and I am backer #1, so I'm a little biased ;)
Actually Jeremy, we've made a lot of improvements to adhesion of the silver to the boards since you last saw the process. We now sandblast and chemical treat the FR4 and kapton with a coupling agent that makes a chemical bond between the two, instead of relying on a weak mechanical bond like before.
At CeBIT we had a FR4 board that we were handing out to hundreds of people all day and telling them to try to scratch at a particular trace with their fingernail. At the end of the 3 days the trace was continuous and just as conductive as before.
As for solder mask, we're working on a new ink chemistry to do this, so it'll just be a matter of throwing another cartridge in the printer, but at the moment it's not really necessary.
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Being able to print out a circuit is great for prototyping. I hope it just keeps getting better and more affordable but I have to say it sure looks ugly close up :)
I also don't know why you'd bother using paper even for a prototype.
Printing on paper isn't really meant for serious prototypes, just like printing on fabric isn't meant for complicated circuits. They're both just additional possibilities that more 'creative' types than us can use to make cool new things :P
When you said it looks ugly, I thought you were talking about the printer! But yeah, the circuits aren't necessarily lookers from close up, I'm just happy they work :D
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When they first said they made a PCB printer I though about a different kind of device - "Desktop Board House" - a small device with size from that of a desktop laser printer up to a big office copier that can manufacture small or medium size (paper size for reference) high quality boards in small quantities using the same mechanical and photochemical processes that a regular board house uses to manufacture PCBs in huge quantities.
Imagine this: you click "Print" button in your EDA, it sends GERBER files to the printer, after few hours your PCB is ready! Real FR4, 2+ layers, not a paper or whatever.
That's exactly what we're working towards! Well, not the idea of using the same chemical process as board houses, but it being as easy as pressing print and getting your board-house-level circuit. Not sure if you missed it, but the printer can print on FR4, paper is just a bonus.
Was it really all controlled by an Arduino board? That part seemed to be too quick and not a real clear shot.
Yep, really a shield on an arduino mega. I'll get some nice photos of it later.
Having used the LPKF for years, the main problem is to get proper double layer boards and then get connectors soldered on both sides. The way LPKF implements through hole plating is cumbersome... Still neat for prototyping, but what happens when Cartesian go bust, will the ink cartridge be possible to refill?
Haha, well we're hoping not to go bust. Either way, we'll be making a complete tutorial on how to refill your own cartridges, so there won't be any danger anyway. The actual point of the video is to let people refill them with different things to experiment with resistive and insulative inks, and other wonderful things.
This was a very interesting video, I really liked the interviews!
Dave should invite startups to his lab. Tearing into a gadget while the original designer comments on the design desicions, compromises, prototypes, manufacturing headaches etc. How cool would that be?
Agreed!
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I have never before heard a SOIC pronounced "SOWIC". It is normally pronounced "SOYCK". Either he is too young to know or things have changed. Datasheets don't give pronunciation. Linux is pronounced "LEE-NUCKS" but I heave heard newbies pronounce it "LY_NUCKS" after Linus Torvalds. This does not bother me at all. It is but an observation.
But one thing that really gets up my nose is young Sesame Street Australians pronouncing Z as "ZEE" rather than "ZED". The schools have not even been able to teach our kids the alphabet.
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Dave should invite startups to his lab. Tearing into a gadget while the original designer comments on the design desicions, compromises, prototypes, manufacturing headaches etc. How cool would that be?
Yeah, but how many hardware startups are in Sydney?
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I have never before heard a SOIC pronounced "SOWIC".
I've found that the most common. I usually spell it out myself, S-O-I-C, but have been known to use "SOWICK" on occasion.
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The printer is a taste of things to come. If the resolution improves and there are methods to do multilayer, the future will be bright for prototyping. Or maybe one day full in-house volume manufacturing of PCBs will be standard. Silver nitrate is expensive though. Good innovation with the HP cartridges!
One issue using off-the-shelf parts is product life. That is why industrial machines do not use cheapo webcams or consumer cameras for vision. They use lower spec but more costly industrial cameras, like that from Imaging Source or Sony because supply of the same model is close to guaranteed to the next 7 or so years at least. Consumer grade camera have a shelf life of about 6 - 12 months. Similar story for PC motherboards compared to industrial embedded motherboards.
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At first I thought: "Has Dave been to Hanover (Germany) in March this year and made a late upload of his visit?" But then he was in front of an unknown building and told about Sidney and so on. Up to this point I thought, that the CeBIT is only present in Hanover, because it's one of the worlds biggest IT fairs so far. It's interesting to know, that such events are also present on other continents.
Funny, that's exactly what I thought as well :)
Crude germans. Read the topic and thought the same. But then it was like "Uhm, Hannover looks different" :D
However, the prototype printer is very impressive. Like the idea to reuse the existing cartridges. Some smart guys.
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Dave should invite startups to his lab. Tearing into a gadget while the original designer comments on the design desicions, compromises, prototypes, manufacturing headaches etc. How cool would that be?
Yeah, but how many hardware startups are in Sydney?
We would make the trip down :D
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But then it was like "Uhm, Hannover looks different" :D [...] However, the prototype printer is very impressive.
Yes, infact. What area did this CeBIT cover in Sydney? Only one hall or more like in Hanover?
I hope, that the printer will also be affordable for some hobbyists. I think some don't like the handling of chemicals when they etch their own boards at home. Isolation milling is a cleaner way, but pricy if you want high precision devices.
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Dave should invite startups to his lab. Tearing into a gadget while the original designer comments on the design desicions, compromises, prototypes, manufacturing headaches etc. How cool would that be?
Yeah, but how many hardware startups are in Sydney?
Well even just two would fit the definition of 'start-ups' ;)
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The printer is a taste of things to come. If the resolution improves and there are methods to do multilayer
holy crap, I just realized you can print couple layers separately and glue them together later - cheapest multilayer prototype pcb ever :o
or print one layer, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra i ... and so on
this thing has so much potential
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The printer is a taste of things to come. If the resolution improves and there are methods to do multilayer
holy crap, I just realized you can print couple layers separately and glue them together later - cheapest multilayer prototype pcb ever :o
or print one layer, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra i ... and so on
this thing has so much potential
If they have resistive ink like they said you can just make a bridge of resistive ink and print a new layer on that.
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Couldn't they just print normal plastic laser toner on top of the silver as soldermask?
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holy crap, I just realized you can print couple layers separately and glue them together later - cheapest multilayer prototype pcb ever :o
or print one layer, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra i ... and so on
this thing has so much potential
Ho-hum... not sure just filling the holes would provide a secure connection to the different layers... Still if this is true I'm in line for a printer. Would be pretty neat for double sided stuff :)
Maybe Ariel could comment on this??
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holy crap, I just realized you can print couple layers separately and glue them together later - cheapest multilayer prototype pcb ever :o
or print one layer, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra ink to make layer to layer connection, glue new material on top with via holes premade, print on that filling via holes with extra i ... and so on
this thing has so much potential
Ho-hum... not sure just filling the holes would provide a secure connection to the different layers... Still if this is true I'm in line for a printer. Would be pretty neat for double sided stuff :)
Maybe Ariel could comment on this??
A very early experiment:
http://www.cartesianco.com/multi-layered-goodness/ (http://www.cartesianco.com/multi-layered-goodness/)
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Hi !
Regarding to the "3D" PCB printer I left a comment on the Cartesian Co Facebook timeline.
I wrote something like "What about a 3rd cartridge with insulation ink..."
Their response was "We are working on that right now".
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+
Well, the insulation ink is kinda an obvious thing.
But much bigger is the revolution that could come out of it:
Printed PCB with 2 and more layers and even a soldermask on top of them.
I am really looking forward to this technology getting developped further.
As soon as a printer comes to market that can print multilayer boards with the resolution for common SMD parts I am definetly in !
Cheers
Chipguy
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The University of Newcastle Robotics group NuBots:
http://www.newcastle.edu.au/research-and-innovation/centre/engineering-built-environment/newcastle-robotics-laboratory (http://www.newcastle.edu.au/research-and-innovation/centre/engineering-built-environment/newcastle-robotics-laboratory)
Showcasing the robots use in the RoboCup challenge.
My son and I loved these. So I was curious when today I received the email from Maker Shed - "Robots Have Taken Over the Maker Shed!". The ad showed a white version of these robots, from www.robotis.com (http://www.robotis.com). I clicked (http://www.makershed.com/category_s/402.htm (http://www.makershed.com/category_s/402.htm)), and saw the price - $499.99! Then, in the corner of my eye, I see the soccer/football playing guy - the DARwIn-OP Deluxe Edition (http://www.makershed.com/DARwIn_OP_Deluxe_Edition_p/dsrbt07.htm (http://www.makershed.com/DARwIn_OP_Deluxe_Edition_p/dsrbt07.htm)). A billy bargain at $11,999.99 :-) How many do they think they'll sell ??
Anthony
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My son and I loved these. So I was curious when today I received the email from Maker Shed - "Robots Have Taken Over the Maker Shed!". The ad showed a white version of these robots, from www.robotis.com (http://www.robotis.com). I clicked (http://www.makershed.com/category_s/402.htm (http://www.makershed.com/category_s/402.htm)), and saw the price - $499.99! Then, in the corner of my eye, I see the soccer/football playing guy - the DARwIn-OP Deluxe Edition (http://www.makershed.com/DARwIn_OP_Deluxe_Edition_p/dsrbt07.htm (http://www.makershed.com/DARwIn_OP_Deluxe_Edition_p/dsrbt07.htm)). A billy bargain at $11,999.99 :-) How many do they think they'll sell ??
Anthony
they use ridiculously expensive servos in them :/
There was a talk in hackaday comments about those
http://hackaday.com/2014/05/29/meet-jimmy-an-open-source-biped-robot-from-intel/ (http://hackaday.com/2014/05/29/meet-jimmy-an-open-source-biped-robot-from-intel/)