Author Topic: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!  (Read 292578 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ludzinc

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 474
  • Country: au
    • My Misadventures In Engineering
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1125 on: April 05, 2017, 02:03:15 am »
Some Media counterpoint:

"Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways has been in development for 6.5 years and received a total of $4.3 million in funding to generate 90 cents worth of electricity."

http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/03/idahos-4-3-million-solar-road-generates-enough-power-to-run-one-microwave/#ixzz4dKv4fqpZ
 

Offline dunkemhigh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1432
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1126 on: April 05, 2017, 02:10:18 am »
Sounds almost like Google, Facebook and the like used to be: had been going for years, worth tens of billions, never turned a profit.

Consider twitter

I think losing $2b in four years without ever going near a profit beats a mere $4.3m in six years :)
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1127 on: April 05, 2017, 03:13:49 am »
Some Media counterpoint:

"Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways has been in development for 6.5 years and received a total of $4.3 million in funding to generate 90 cents worth of electricity."

http://dailycaller.com/2017/04/03/idahos-4-3-million-solar-road-generates-enough-power-to-run-one-microwave/#ixzz4dKv4fqpZ

Quote
On March 31st, the panels generated 1.06 kWh, enough to barely power a single microwave.

No no no no no!  Wrong! Power and energy are two different things.  |O

Generating a total of 1kW-h of energy over the course of a day will NOT power a microwave.  A typical microwave oven draws about one kW of *power*, but Solar Roadways' peak power output is about 160W.  See attached plot.  Enphase records in 15 minute buckets, so I'm going just going with 40Wx4.

Solar Roadways could barely power two incandescent bulbs ... at noon.  It gets worse from there. 

« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 03:23:47 am by LabSpokane »
 
The following users thanked this post: Kean

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1128 on: April 05, 2017, 04:49:20 am »
Well, actuially ... you could do it.

You just need to add a Tesla power wall, an inverter and at least a one day lead time.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9168
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1129 on: April 05, 2017, 05:12:10 am »
Or a deep cycle lead acid battery. That will power a microwave via an inverter at least long enough to nuke a burrito.
 

Offline moz

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 84
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1130 on: April 05, 2017, 05:19:20 am »
What's the minimum input power requirement for a Tesla Powerwall?

They might find that unless they get at least 100W input they can't charge it at all.

You can fix all those problems by adding even a single 100W panel on top of the control box next to the "solar road"... have we discussed that option before :P
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1131 on: April 05, 2017, 06:39:48 am »
Well, actuially ... you could do it.

You just need to add a Tesla power wall, an inverter and at least a one day lead time.

Of course, but it would make this whole mess even worse with all the conversion losses.
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1132 on: April 05, 2017, 08:16:17 am »
... that's why I said at least a one day lead time.


But even this is a distraction from the basic problem ... that SR can never live up to the hype.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:19:23 am by Brumby »
 

Offline rrinker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1885
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1133 on: April 05, 2017, 12:48:51 pm »
 Anyone have a rough idea of what a traditional ground solar farm costs, either per area or per power output? As in, with all this money dumped in to Solar Roadways, how much of a known, proven system could have been deployed and how much power would it be generating.

 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9956
  • Country: 00
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1134 on: April 05, 2017, 01:09:11 pm »
Anyone have a rough idea of what a traditional ground solar farm costs, either per area or per power output?

Google: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=solar+panel+prices+per+watt

160W would cost less than $500.

You could have a 1 megawatt installation for the cost of those SR panels.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:11:41 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rrinker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1885
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1135 on: April 05, 2017, 01:52:19 pm »
 Power the whole freakin' visitors center for less than what it costs for those solar freakin roadway-that-isn't-a-roadway,

Lunacy.

 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1136 on: April 05, 2017, 04:19:42 pm »
Anyone have a rough idea of what a traditional ground solar farm costs, either per area or per power output? As in, with all this money dumped in to Solar Roadways, how much of a known, proven system could have been deployed and how much power would it be generating.

About $2.50 USD/W is what the going all-in CAPEX for solar farms once you figure in dirt, plant, and installation, but there is an ongoing revolution with respect to balance of plant costs. I've seen numbers less than that. I'm looking online right now at a 10kW residential system (Eco distributing) for $1.80/W, but that excludes installation and permitting.

As a recent datapoint, India's Kamuthi solar power plant is 648MW and supposedly cost $680MM USD. One has to be careful about published power plant costs because they are sometimes deliberately misleading in order to protect a company's true pricing. Even double that cost would still be an impressive number.

Even at a generous all-in of $5/W, solar roadways 1320W system should cost $6600 as a conventional installation.

Solar roadways received a total of $58,734 to install what by anyone's definition is a maturing power generation technology. At 1320W nameplate, that clocks in at a whopping $44.50/W. and even if scaling would result in a 10X reduction in CAPEX, a solar roadway would still be outrageously uncompetitive compared to where solar farm costs are going, which appears to be $1 USD/W.

If one then factors in that a Solar Roadway generates about 20% the power it ought to, we can simply multiply SR's CAPEX costs by five for a fair comparison with properly-sited power projects. So, $220/W for the demo and $22/W if a miracle happens.

For reference:

Combined cycle gas turbine: $1MM/MWe

Coal (with proper pollution controls): $5MM/MWe

Nuclear: $3MM to $7MM/MWe (depends on when plant was started)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 05:11:59 pm by LabSpokane »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, rrinker, moz

Offline johndoe123

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 30
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1137 on: April 06, 2017, 04:58:24 am »
Quote
While the problems during the initial installation were a “really expensive lesson,” the Brusaws said they are grateful for what they’ve learned and are thrilled all 30 panels are working exactly as expected — even when the town square was buried under a 2- to 3-foot blanket of snow.

http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/front_page_slider/20170402/solar_roadways_shining_with_success

2-3 foot (60-90cm)?!? That was rather 2-3 inch
 

Offline Koen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 446
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1138 on: April 06, 2017, 06:05:10 am »
2x3 foot is the width x length of the blanket. Very conventional sized snow blanket for bathrooms and narrow spaces.
 

Offline MauriceS

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1139 on: April 10, 2017, 11:07:55 pm »
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1140 on: April 11, 2017, 02:03:52 am »
Some tech blogs are FINALLY picking the BS up...

http://www.eteknix.com/solar-panel-road-in-idaho-cost-4-3-million-and-barely-makes-any-power/

Quote
Solar Panel Road in Idaho Cost $4.3 Million and Barely Makes Any Power

Lefteris Papaiosif / 1 min ago
solar panel road

A not so cost effective solar panel road in Idaho, considering it was funded with $4.3 million, produces enough juice to just barely power a small device such as a microwave oven. In late March, the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project posted data which was rather disappointing, as the very expensive road could only generate 0.62 kWh worth of energy on a daily average.



In detail, on March 29th 0.26 kWh was generated from the road panels, which for example can’t even power a PC monitor. Two days later, official readings showed that 1.06 kWh of energy was generated by the panels, which should be enough to power a domestic refrigerator. This low power output of the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project is caused by design fault but even if that was not the case the and the road panels actually worked as intended, the energy generated would not justify the cost of the project itself because the energy produced daily does not exceed the worth of 90 cents.

Eventually, the Solar FREAKIN’ Roadways project “burst into flames” due to an electrical box which caught fire. The fire was captured in a series of screenshots taken in late March. Firefighters rushed to the scene and issued an update on the official project’s webcam reading: “The Solar Roadways electrical system is currently undergoing maintenance. Please check back late next week.”

The tragedy of Solar Roadways is that the press de-bunking thus far uses as faulty of engineering mathematics as its progenitor. 

0.26kW-h would actually power a typical LCD monitor for around 10 hours. 
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1141 on: April 11, 2017, 11:51:20 pm »
The tragedy of Solar Roadways is that the press de-bunking thus far uses as faulty of engineering mathematics as its progenitor. 

0.26kW-h would actually power a typical LCD monitor for around 10 hours.

Unfortunately, there are excessive amounts of journalism that fail in the accuracy metric.

What's even more concerning is that it still seems to be happily ingested by the masses.
 

Offline LabSpokane

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1899
  • Country: us
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1142 on: April 12, 2017, 04:37:32 am »
A little truth in advertising from Solar Roadways this evening:

« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 04:40:46 am by LabSpokane »
 
The following users thanked this post: cgroen, jpc

Offline jpc

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 69
  • Country: gb
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1143 on: April 12, 2017, 04:47:10 am »


Quote from: LabSpokane on Today at 03:37:32
A little truth in advertising from Solar Roadways this evening:

>




 :-DD
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1144 on: April 12, 2017, 11:47:25 am »
I wish I could come up with something clever to say ....

.... but I just can't top that.   :-DD
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4720
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1145 on: April 12, 2017, 12:03:40 pm »
Yep, you can't beat the beauty of simplicity in that amazing executive summary of Solar Roadways.
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1146 on: April 12, 2017, 03:33:11 pm »
.... executive summary ....

I will pay that.
 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5835
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1147 on: April 28, 2017, 03:09:05 am »
They've been showing some creative stuff recently.

Also, something happened to the aspect ratio of the camera stream.
Alex
 

Online Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9208
  • Country: au
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1148 on: April 28, 2017, 03:59:49 am »
All they've done is trim the black bars from the side.  The geometry of the image is unchanged.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2254
  • Country: ca
Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #1149 on: April 29, 2017, 09:52:53 am »
I like the fact that even the stream itself seems to be failed half the time. Maybe the camera is powered by the solar system.  :-DD 
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB, jpc


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf