Author Topic: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!  (Read 293097 times)

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Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #300 on: June 25, 2014, 11:37:25 pm »
It would be infinitely cheaper to just build giant arrays of solar panels close to distribution centers, and then install lights and heating into existing asphalt roadways.

Yes, that is a good robust suggestion, research that.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #301 on: June 25, 2014, 11:44:00 pm »
But the biggest one - and the one that Dave has hit on most... what is the connection between roads and solar power generation?  There is really NOTHING at all about roadways that make them a convenient candidate for solar power gathering.  They are often obstructed by cars, trees, road dirt and such.  Their orientation is massively inefficient for solar energy gathering.  And the problems of making solar panels transparent and able to be driven over are all manufactured problems... they are not problems that need solved other than because you want to put a solar panel under the road.  But why would you want to do that?   It goes back to the root problem - there is nothing about roads that make them ideal candidates for solar panels.

That right there is the perfect takeaway summary. I probably should have emphasised that more in my video.
A Solar Roadway has two tasks:
1) It needs to work as a road surface, at least as well as the current type.
2) It needs to generate sufficient solar power to make it financially viable for the given cost and effort to install it.

Even if you managed to solve all the issues with #1, even the most generous ballpark calculations on #2 means it's a completely stupid idea that will never work. Unless some magic new solar materials technology comes along that neatly solves #1 and #2 in one big swoop.
And that's the thing backers don't understand, the don't want this money for research to find that solution, they want this money to take their current idea into production.  :palm:
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #302 on: June 26, 2014, 12:36:01 am »

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything. 
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Offline Noah1989

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #303 on: June 26, 2014, 02:26:04 am »
I guess this sums it all up pretty much:

 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #304 on: June 26, 2014, 02:27:29 am »
This article clams that Bill Nye The Science Guy is a "fan" of Solar Roadways.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye
I certainly hope not...

Guess that's why he's not Bill Nye the Engineer guy.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #305 on: June 26, 2014, 02:30:08 am »
Just because THIS particular implementation of a solar roadway seems impractical is not the same as proving that no solar roadway can ever be practical or cost effective. I can't imagine one at the moment, but that is also not proof. There are many technological inovations we enjoy today that would have been considered equally fanciful to past generations.

Sure, and that's a scientific and technical innovation issue.
Maybe one day there will be a technology (solar + materials) that enables solar roadways as a practical concept in some form, but until that happens, it's pointless to think about.
Solar Roadways is a massive practical engineering problem, currently unsolvable with current technology, and that is easily provable.

Quote
Pick any technological innovation you like that ever encountered problems that made it seem unfeasible and tell me it exists because of something other than time and effort.

However feasible solar roadways might one day be based on scientific advances, it doesn't matter what technology becomes available, optimised solar panel installations will always be better and more cost effective than using them in (poorly optimised) roads. That is an easily provable and obvious fact. That's what Corporate666 was on about with the laws of physics, and not being solvable with time and effort.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #306 on: June 26, 2014, 02:56:10 am »
I agree that it's BULLSHIT! and a waste of money.

The thing is that I have to give it to them to raise that money to work on their pet project and we (Humanity) have wasted more resources than a measly 2 million dollars on stupid things. So cudos to them for getting the funding.

My bigger concern is not that they got money for nothing but the political acceptance makes me a bit nervous. I just hope that just because it's popular they don't waste my tax money in this project anymore. If private people want to fund this, the more power to them, don't care.

But if the raising of funds "validates" more government funding then that's when $#!t hits the proverbial fan.

The blind followers are going to keep on following and the more we pressure them to understand the more they'll react and think we are "paid disinformers" (one of free energy movement favorite coined phrase), so the best thing is just to let the mistake follow it's natural course and hope it doesn't get political traction.

I mean they got their GE grant by popularity to begin with, not by peer merit, the other grant, not sure how they got that at all, buzzwords empty promises and popularity? The thing is that the funding stopped so that is some relief that someone don't want to throw good money to bad, so there is hope that this will consume itself from it's own flames (or is it candlelights?)

If their backers want to throw them play money then so be it. If something goes wrong and they get charged with negligence so be it too. They are adults and should know that consequences are a cause of not following due diligence.

Some people will back the underdog blindly just by nature, best thing is to ignore them and let them fail and hopefully they cause no harm to their community.

Believe this, Insurance companies will use their political resources if this causes them to loose money and the panels will be yanked in record time. That is if vandals to take care of that first.

I understand their rhetoric (the "inventors" not the followers) is enfuriating, but they are just doing politics not reason (like x amount of people would be alive if we had this earlier kind of comments), but feeding the opposition fire, might give them more followers, it's that underdog thing.

Are they stupid, nope, seems they know what they are doing, gathering a cult and followers because people love to fight for a cause, the solution lay down the facts and hope they come to reason and if not just make it a non event we did our due diligence now the ball is on their court.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #307 on: June 26, 2014, 03:02:57 am »

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.

A guy I went to school with who is now a professor at a university and freely admits he's a socialist once told me "When I was a kid, I used to think big ideas were equivalent to big deeds."

Or as the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #308 on: June 26, 2014, 06:05:46 am »

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.

A guy I went to school with who is now a professor at a university and freely admits he's a socialist once told me "When I was a kid, I used to think big ideas were equivalent to big deeds."

Or as the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Sounds like he's an old school socialist who knows the world sucks!
Old lefties have met a lot of "Con men",in their own organisations & outside,& know "snake oil" when they see it!

The thing is,to most of the backers,the Solar Roadways guys sound like "The American Dream".

Going against the entrenched competition to produce an innovative new product-----just like Henry Ford,Edison,& many other "free enterprise" heroes.
The fact that they have scammed  the taxpayers is conveniently forgotten! ;D
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #309 on: June 26, 2014, 06:30:57 am »
yeah, but the solar roadways are not innovating as in new technology, they are just trying to use existing tech.

If at least it had researching of new photovoltaics then maybe, but I stick to my give them enough rope.

Piss away 2 Million dollars we do that by Many orders of magnitude worldwide, just a drop in the bucket.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #310 on: June 26, 2014, 07:06:05 am »
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

Is it just that this generation don't ever look at the real world outside their iPads?
Or are they just dumber? ;D
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #311 on: June 26, 2014, 07:56:40 am »
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

Is it just that this generation don't ever look at the real world outside their iPads?
Or are they just dumber? ;D

Hope is a good deterrent for reason. Even we in the US had to tighten our belts for a change. People lost homes, jobs, all of the above and we are on the aftershocks of this. the term "Off the grid" is rampant. tight economies promote for pie in the sky expectations.

People blame "The Man" and trying to escape that relationship is no different than us (the US) would love not having dependencies with others.
 

Offline deth502

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #312 on: June 26, 2014, 10:50:26 am »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #313 on: June 26, 2014, 11:44:37 am »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...

Don't think so.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #314 on: June 26, 2014, 12:55:32 pm »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,but our Private Sector is pretty conservative when it comes to anything that doesn't give a quick return on investment.
No Government funding,no Trans Australia Railway,no Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme,no Ord River Scheme,no Australia-wide communications system,etc.

That said,something like Solar Roadways would be battling to get Federal funds in this country,as a lot of other things are way ahead on the queue.
All the very large projects which were Government funded were peer reviewed before they got any funding.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #315 on: June 26, 2014, 03:34:40 pm »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...

Don't think so.

Sometimes things are not big enough for venture capitalists to be interested.  In fact crowd funded projects may not even be intentionally profitable. Let's say you have an idea for some new lifesaving device that you want to give away free to mankind via OSHW but just need to get some money to finalize it.
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #316 on: June 26, 2014, 06:23:58 pm »
xkcd's Randall Munroe in his latest "What if" story comments:
Quote
Cool-sounding ideas like the recent "Solar Freaking Roadways" campaign don't always work out when you run the numbers.
and has an interesting proposal:

 

Offline deth502

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #317 on: June 26, 2014, 11:32:27 pm »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,..................

in the usa, the govt are professionals at wasting money. from solar roads, to recycling plastic and paper, to subsidizing "arts", ect.... anything they put money towards is nearly always bullshit.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #318 on: June 26, 2014, 11:59:03 pm »
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,..................

in the usa, the govt are professionals at wasting money. from solar roads, to recycling plastic and paper, to subsidizing "arts", ect.... anything they put money towards is nearly always bullshit.

It's like they just keep forming government agencies for the sole purpose of wasting money.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #319 on: June 27, 2014, 12:19:53 am »
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

You can't really blame them for that.
Good charlatans know how to sell to the public, and Solar Roadways has done it really well.
But when people continue to staunchly believe, and will express no doubt when people in the profession come along and say it's not possible and prove it with basic numbers and tests, that's when the real problem begins. At this point you don't a public that's been cleverly tricked, you start to have religious belief, and that's both dangerous and sad.
 

Offline DrGeoff

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #320 on: June 27, 2014, 12:35:18 am »
Good charlatans know how to sell to the public, and Solar Roadways has done it really well.
But when people continue to staunchly believe, and will express no doubt when people in the profession come along and say it's not possible and prove it with basic numbers and tests, that's when the real problem begins. At this point you don't a public that's been cleverly tricked, you start to have religious belief, and that's both dangerous and sad.

You only need to look at the 'financial planning' market to see evidence of that!
Was it really supposed to do that?
 

Offline TheWelly888

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #321 on: June 29, 2014, 02:40:53 pm »
Maybe, just maybe this will increase the efficiency of solar cells and decrease the manufacturing cost? Tofu salt!!!!  >:D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28017935

Doesn't give any figures though.
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Offline Legit-Design

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #322 on: July 01, 2014, 10:06:17 am »
http://www.michelin.com/corporate/content/newsAndPress/products_and_services/Tires/Michelin-invents-the-anti-landmine-tire-for-military-vehicles-capable-of-traversing-minefields%20.pdf

http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/michelin-readies-anti-landmine-tyre-defence-application-5687

Quote
A standard armoured reconnaissance vehicle exerts a ground pressure of 5 kg/sq.cm. Equipped with the Michelin LX PSI 710/75 R 34 anti-landmine tyres, each weighing 200kg, the roughly 7.5-tonne SOUVIM II vehicle applies a ground pressure of just 360 g/sq.cm. That’s less than an 80-kg walking human, which exerts about 660 g/sq.m of ground pressure per footfall, and – for anecdotal purposes – even less than a 2.5kg rabbit, which applies 450 g/sq.cm to the soil.

http://news.blackcircles.com/2014/05/michelin-develop-anti-mine-tyre/

These could be answer for solar roadways, even less pressure than that small tractor!
Less pressure than a rabbit, and rabbits can run on loosely packed snow without falling through.
With those tires we can have thinner tempered glass.

If nothing else they can test their solar roadways with these tires and tell everyone their road surface passed the test.  :-+
 

Offline rob77

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #323 on: July 01, 2014, 04:50:11 pm »
Rabbits can set off landmines; I don't really see a point to that vehicle.

i see the point very clearly....

money ..money... money... more money... taxpayers will pay that...  money ! want more and more money ! (said the manufacturer) :D
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
« Reply #324 on: July 02, 2014, 10:05:12 am »
South Africans did that first using second hand F1 tires.
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