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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 01:49:36 pm

Title: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 01:49:36 pm
Dave debunks the Solar Roadways project that generated over $1.2M on Indiegogo, as well as almost another million dollars in US government funding.
In this video Dave does the solar generation calculations to see if this system is viable from an energy generation viewpoint, and also how much power the LED's might typically consume.

Datasheets & Links:
http://www.solarroadways.com (http://www.solarroadways.com)
Sunpower E18 Solar Panels: http://hvce.com/admin/content/uploads/Sunpower230.pdf (http://hvce.com/admin/content/uploads/Sunpower230.pdf)
Dave's solar system data:
http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=22501&sid=20402&dt=20131104 (http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=22501&sid=20402&dt=20131104)

Thunderf00t's videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H901KdXgHs4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ftXinT4jI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3ftXinT4jI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV-RnVQdcs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocV-RnVQdcs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI8c2f8r0UU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI8c2f8r0UU)

EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obS6TUVSZds#ws)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: zapta on June 19, 2014, 02:02:35 pm
Bullshit? With the right marketing that can get them tons of tax payers' money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: GeoffS on June 19, 2014, 02:28:00 pm
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 19, 2014, 02:31:14 pm
Spotted many hiccups at 23:00 and watching after that. Also the "sample text" ? at the end. BUT I DON'T MIND. AWESOME VID  :-+

Please, please more. Gotta milk the cow while the milk is hot?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 02:39:03 pm
Bullshit? With the right marketing that can get them tons of tax payers' money.

No doubt!
Already nabbed them $850K of taxpayer $$$$$$
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mux on June 19, 2014, 02:39:49 pm
Although I'm with you on the general gist that this doesn't really seem like the best way to go about engineering solar panels or a road, the calculations you do are pretty handwavy to say the least, using fairly bad metrics to try and calculate things.

For instance, you're using some ballpark LED spacing and individual LED power for your LED calculation. That just seems unnecessary. It's much easier to work from visibility principles. Let me try:
In clear daylight, current road markers (white reflective paint) get the required minimum of 10:1 contrast ratio by dispersing light at nearly 100% efficiency. That means the light coming to your eyes from these lights is in the order of 10k lux surface brightness. 10klux is 10klumen per square meter. First google hit (http://uttipec.nic.in/writereaddata/mainlinkFile/File208.pdf (http://uttipec.nic.in/writereaddata/mainlinkFile/File208.pdf)) tells me that road lane markings are supposed to be 3m lines with 4.5m gaps, 150mm wide. That's equivalent to a 0.06m wide continuous line, or 60 square meters per kilometer of road. The side markers are going to be 150mm contiguous lines, so for both markers on a 2-lane road that's 300 m2 per km, making a total of 360 m2 of marker surface per km. Times 10klumen is 3.6Mlm of total light output.

Assuming perfect conversion efficiency and assuming the use of the best commercial LEDs available at the moment for general lighting (Cree XM-L, 151lm/W raw), that's 23.8kW of power in full daylight.

Now, the same calculation as for your insolation applies for the drive strength of those LEDs. You're absolutely not going to run those at full strength all day, that is just an unreasonable assumption to make. You can simply use the same calculations you used for solar insolation to get the effective run time. Running them all day at variable strength is, like insolation, going to be equal to running them at full strength for 7 hours. And over the total year, you can use the same x0.6 multiplier to account for seasonal changes in daylight brightness. This means the total AVERAGE power required is going to be 23.8kW x (7/24) x 0.6 = 4.17kW. This boils down to 100kWh/day, or about 3% of the daily production. Less than cable losses.

If you're going to do calculations to try and prove your point, do them well or don't do them at all. Again, I agree with the general premise but I think your math is severely lacking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 02:41:48 pm
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?

Not for me?
Athough Youtube did through up an error.
Might still be processing or something.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Zbig on June 19, 2014, 02:49:01 pm
I also noticed what seems like some editing glitches starting around ~22 minutes mark.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: KD0CAC John on June 19, 2014, 02:53:37 pm
It's another attempt to create negative propaganda about solar - not Dave's video , but the guy that came up with this .
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: GeoffS on June 19, 2014, 02:58:55 pm
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?

Not for me?
Athough Youtube did through up an error.
Might still be processing or something.

Perhaps I just shouldn't watch videos after midnight  ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 03:03:00 pm
Assuming perfect conversion efficiency and assuming the use of the best commercial LEDs available at the moment for general lighting (Cree XM-L, 151lm/W raw), that's 23.8kW of power in full daylight.

So pretty close to my estimated 30kW.
These numbers have to be hand-wavey, because real data doesn't exist for the very small view angles and thick glass we are talking about here.
It needs serious empirical measurement.

Quote
Now, the same calculation as for your insolation applies for the drive strength of those LEDs. You're absolutely not going to run those at full strength all day, that is just an unreasonable assumption to make.

Yes, I know. But I figure it's going to come out in the wash. Because during the day you are going need almost ludicrous amounts of light. To the point where it may simply not be possible to view that at all (as I noted in the video)
You are seriously forgetting the issue of very shallow angles here.
I get what you are saying, but I'm not convinced your numbers are any better, or that you are comparing apples with apples here.

Quote
You can simply use the same calculations you used for solar insolation to get the effective run time. Running them all day at variable strength is, like insolation, going to be equal to running them at full strength for 7 hours. And over the total year, you can use the same x0.6 multiplier to account for seasonal changes in daylight brightness.

Yes. My 0.5W figure was designed to take into account the variation, and would be an average over a day.
I'm not buying the season change in brightness. I don't think it will impact much.

[/quote]
 This means the total AVERAGE power required is going to be 23.8kW x (7/24) x 0.6 = 4.17kW. This boils down to 100kWh/day, or about 3% of the daily production. Less than cable losses.
[/quote]

Where did your nighttime consumption go?

And once again, it's all pointless discussion if you can't see these things in the daytime anyway, which I suspect will be the case.
If you want to prove me wrong here, do some real testing with LED's show us. I think you'll be in for a bit of shock.
I recon you'll still need a hefty amount of power at night time as well. I stick with my figure of 0.5W average.
Not to mention visibility at night time with the car headlights on.

In any case, even without any LED consumption at all, you will find the ROI of these panels is absurdly low.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 03:03:52 pm
I also noticed what seems like some editing glitches starting around ~22 minutes mark.

Ok, I'll check this again in the morning.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mariush on June 19, 2014, 03:07:11 pm
Was it just me or was there a hiccup at about 23:50?

Not for me?
Athough Youtube did through up an error.
Might still be processing or something.

Nope, at around 23:00 you started a sentence and probably didn't like how it came out and decided to start again and you forgot to cut out that part when editing. Then you cut again at around 23:50.
And there's the "Sample text" black screen instead of the usual "footer" video with the eevblog text and lightning sparks and noise.

Video works, just looks rushed to upload.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 03:09:38 pm
Nope, at around 23:00 you started a sentence and probably didn't like how it came out and decided to start again and you forgot to cut out that part when editing. Then you cut again at around 23:50.
And there's the "Sample text" black screen instead of the usual "footer" video with the eevblog text and lightning sparks and noise.
Video works, just looks rushed to upload.

Damn, ok. Too late to fix now.
I might take offline and fix tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 19, 2014, 03:11:13 pm
Maybe it's a great way to keep idiots laughing at editing mistakes when they don't have to even try and say the number or whole project is going to work? I really hope there are those other videos coming.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: firewalker on June 19, 2014, 03:13:49 pm
Maybe they ?nvented a more efficient way to convert solar energy to electric power!  :P :P :P

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on June 19, 2014, 03:15:47 pm
They also market these "led panels" as being "safer" than conventional road markings?  er, how?  In the UK with have had passive "catseyes" for over 50 years.  They are simple reflectors, with a built in cleaning mechanism, and they work perfectly and are cheap.  Being able to "actively" illuminate a road is no better than a simple painted white line, and the ability to "reconfigure road markings"? again er, why?  Motorists have enough trouble with fixed lane markings, being able to modify them isn't going to help matters.

In the UK, a kWh of electricity currently costs around 15 pence (£0.15), so each square meter of roadway, if we take Daves figure of around 350wh/day is worth around just 5 pence per day (not including any power consumption by LED/road heating or other such pointless addenda).

And the killer point.  We are NOT short of space to mount conventional solar panels.  IE lack of space is NOT the factor that is preventing a more widespread uptake of solar power generation.  Therefore, "solving" an non problem is not going to actually having any effect on the situation.

For example, in 2014 it is completely technically possible to design a special system of parachutes and catch netting to allow people to get downstairs by just jumping out of an upstairs window.  However, as most people just use the stairs to do this, that "technically" feasible solution is just as pointless as "solar fracking roadways"!......  ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Hole on June 19, 2014, 03:18:21 pm
They simply maximize problems.

Assume solar cells placed on the roof are the optimum. They add substantial surface stress, distribution loss, reduced efficiency, "magic grid" management loss and so on.

Heating them to melt the snow? Good idea, but where comes the energy from when there is snow on the panels?

Looking at the current state of our streets (at least here in Germany) building and maintenance costs enough money. Now implement high tech and pay that... And nothing against street workers  construction worker but I assume it will be a hard job to trains Joe-concrete-truck-driver to wire up solar street panels.

Why not start with adding solar to all roofs. Produce where it is needed. After that, we can conquer the streets.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 03:18:52 pm
Video will be back up after I fix the edit and re-upload tomorrow morning, maybe by 10am.
Yes, I really rushed this one. A rare one where SWMBO let me stay back to finish and upload it.
FAIL.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: firewalker on June 19, 2014, 03:22:42 pm
How much the glass only would cost? Glass isn't cheap. At least the type needed for the job.

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: MrAureliusR on June 19, 2014, 03:24:54 pm
Video will be back up after I fix the edit and re-upload tomorrow morning, maybe by 10am.
Yes, I really rushed this one. A rare one where SWMBO let me stay back to finish and upload it.
FAIL.

Yeah, when I tried to reply to a comment the video disappeared!

BTW, their website has a ridiculous 'Clearing the Freakin' Air' page where they try to "bust" some myths surrounding their product -- without including a SINGLE piece of data ANYWHERE on the page.
Nice try guys, but no engineer would fall for that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Rentium on June 19, 2014, 03:27:46 pm
God damit i was just about to watch it   :-\

Guess i'll have to wait 8:30 hours untill 10 A.M.  :=\
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 19, 2014, 03:34:04 pm
Nice try guys, but no engineer would fall for that.

And the guy is an engineer. Either the worst engineer ever having managed to get an EE degree (unaccredited prestigious university anyone?), or a scammer.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on June 19, 2014, 03:36:17 pm
Let 'em go Dave!

It'll be good for our economy as I envisage another mining boom to supply them the raw materials to make all that shit :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: firewalker on June 19, 2014, 03:39:37 pm
Any rough numbers for the price of the glass (per square meter) they would need?

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 19, 2014, 03:57:15 pm
This is sadly not uncommon,  our (broke) government knows only how to spend money. Frequently for idiotic programs, and always so politicians and bureaucrats can keep their jobs.

As for this debacle,  one hardly knows where to start.

As for the msee, not seeing anything spectacular in the c.v.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-brusaw/2a/84/72a (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/scott-brusaw/2a/84/72a)

Still, anyone is capable of the quintessential better mousetrap.

The guy was schooled, working in ohio, which from a solar perspective is bad. His digs in northern Idaho aren't much better

(http://www.dispatch.com/content/graphics/2010/07/18/solar-power-gls96l8n-10718gfx-solar-power-map-eps.jpg)

LED visibility would require something on the surface for any hope of lateral dispersion. 3M scotchlite glass beads or the like perhaps. That would wreck transmissivity to the solar cell.

Surface friction of glass would be horrendous.  Like having ice on the road year-round.

Salt, sand, cinders, chains and studs are used for traction enhancement on normal roads. Maybe suction cups would work...

Tractor tire loadings? Seriously? 

Heating glass roadways? On an infinite heat sink? Does the University of Dayton offer heat transfer/thermo?



On the plus side, he's raking it in.

maybe I will launch magnetic roadways, which will generate free energy from cars with steel belted radial tires.


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mux on June 19, 2014, 04:01:18 pm

So pretty close to my estimated 30kW.
These numbers have to be hand-wavey, because real data doesn't exist for the very small view angles and thick glass we are talking about here.
It needs serious empirical measurement.

My complaint is with the method used; using watt-figures for LEDs and using spacing for LEDs as a guideline instead of using actual visibility metrics (which is perfectly possible in this case!)

Quote
I get what you are saying, but I'm not convinced your numbers are any better, or that you are comparing apples with apples here.

I'm not declaring my numbers holy, just saying that the method is a bit more credible/backed up by a reasonable method to get there than just saying that one LED uses 0.5W.

Quote
Where did your nighttime consumption go?

Same way that the nighttime sun went. Away. You run the LEDs proportional to the sunlight. At night, typical lights only need to produce in the order of tens of lux to get reasonable visibility. Existing road markings do nothing other than just reflect that light, whereas the asphalt absorbs it, creating a contrast. With the LEDs, you do the same. I did nothing other than apply the insolation formula to the LED lights.

I'm not discussing the numbers here with you, I'm discussing the method. In your video you didn't display any kind of research or method to your calculations, so the calculations simply don't make sense. The LED calculation I did here is just an example of one calculation that can be done much better, but that goes just as much for your other arguments: there are good ways to do proper back of the envelope engineering here, and I am of the opinion that you were just entirely handwavy, no method at all. That really doesn't help a discussion that tries to debunk something like this. You need to have strong arguments, backed up by credible calculations. If you're just trying to get your opinion out there you shouldn't do these messy calculations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 19, 2014, 04:24:10 pm
Even Forbes raised an eyebrow

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/06/05/could-solar-panels-replace-concrete-or-asphalt-roads/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/06/05/could-solar-panels-replace-concrete-or-asphalt-roads/)

Let's not forget that you still need the subroadbed for mechanical support. Now we need to match coefficients of expansion.

Also, roadways are not flat. They are crowned for drainage. Do we have to grout all these solar tiles?

Asphalt & concrete are generally priced in different units, but for comparison only (residential)

http://www.teamelmers.com/driveways-2 (http://www.teamelmers.com/driveways-2)


Have we talked about oil buildup? On glass-yikes. On plastic-clouding.


Years back, our state DOT tried Superpave. Miracle mix. Supposed to last decades. Failed in under a year. Had to be torn up. Taxpayers hosed again. This is a cluster. This is .gov giving money away to fix things that aren't broke. No. Just no.



ETA: the superpave debacle. They fired one of the engineers for publicly admitting it sucked.

http://old.post-gazette.com/transportation/20030216gratacol0216p4.asp (http://old.post-gazette.com/transportation/20030216gratacol0216p4.asp)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: zapta on June 19, 2014, 05:01:05 pm
Video will be back up after I fix the edit and re-upload tomorrow morning, maybe by 10am.
Yes, I really rushed this one. A rare one where SWMBO let me stay back to finish and upload it.
FAIL.

Reminds me the funny glitch at 0:10 here ;-)   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1n_ELmpFI#t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh1n_ELmpFI#t=10s)

(please don't 'fix' it).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 19, 2014, 05:03:53 pm
Quote from: http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqBikes
We have two types of surfaces:
1) a semi-smooth walking surface that is capable of stopping a car going 40-mph on a wet surface in the required distance
2) The one you see in the video with the raised hexagons was designed for highway use and can stop a car going 80-mph on a wet surface.

We talked with the civil engineers who conducted the traction testing and they've assured us that the testing covers trucks, cars, motorcycles, and bicycles. So if you don't slip on asphalt or concrete, then you won't slip on our glass.

Hmm they are saying a car can stop on their surfaces from certain speeds. What is the required distance?

But since they are also saying the roads will pay for themselves:
Quote from: http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqLongetivity
How long will these Solar Road Panels last?

We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.

So I guess we could assume their panels will pay for themselves on that minimum 20 years life expectancy? That is a very long time for return of investment? If some panels last 30 years and some only 20 years it will all be balanced out?

Are they actually claiming the panels will start to spew out pure profit after what time? NO. They are just saying we got contract to design a surface that will pay for itself during it's lifetime. But since it's solar everyone naturally assumes their roads will start to spew up profit after certain period like all solar power systems? Ok since we aren't already being told the whole truth maybe this could slide also? Like with everything there is always a way to make numbers more favorable. I think I might get some of their thinking. If we just take that the lifetime of the product is the same as the return of the investment? And they counting on the road being always perfect and only fraction of percent of roads need to be replaced during their lifetime. If they just told the truth like it is, not many people would be that interested I guess?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Tronicgr on June 19, 2014, 10:15:13 pm

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/growing-copper-theft-epidemic-sweeping-us-f6C10791941 (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/growing-copper-theft-epidemic-sweeping-us-f6C10791941)


I can only imagine what will happen to these really expensive solar tiles after a while, unless they have a way to superglue them on the road  :-DD




Thanos

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 11:04:29 pm
BTW, their website has a ridiculous 'Clearing the Freakin' Air' page where they try to "bust" some myths surrounding their product -- without including a SINGLE piece of data ANYWHERE on the page.

Yup, it's almost comical, as is most of the stuff on their website.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 11:06:38 pm
Any rough numbers for the price of the glass (per square meter) they would need?

I've done some basic research on this, and it seems that $10/sqm is probably in the ballpark for suitable 16mm stuff in volume.
But they need the bumps and the roughening etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 19, 2014, 11:14:41 pm
I'm not declaring my numbers holy, just saying that the method is a bit more credible/backed up by a reasonable method to get there than just saying that one LED uses 0.5W.

I won't argue that. But the fact that my research showed about 0.5W to be an average LED sign brightness over the course of the day (assuming it's even visible), that was backed up by your numbers (also rough and unproven in this exact scenario) showed that we both likely aren't far off.

Quote
Same way that the nighttime sun went. Away. You run the LEDs proportional to the sunlight. At night, typical lights only need to produce in the order of tens of lux to get reasonable visibility. Existing road markings do nothing other than just reflect that light, whereas the asphalt absorbs it, creating a contrast. With the LEDs, you do the same. I did nothing other than apply the insolation formula to the LED lights.

And I think this is likely wrong.
You aren't taking into account the massively shallow angle, well outside the operational angle of the LED's.
And you you aren't taking into account the headlights.

Quote
If you're just trying to get your opinion out there you shouldn't do these messy calculations.

I disagree.
I think it's a good ballpark calculation. Seems to be more than Solar Roadways have done, at least publicly.
I admit the LED consumption will have a lot of variability, but it shows that the LED consumption matters. Even if the LEDs consumed nothing at all all day, the generation numbers still suck.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr Simpleton on June 19, 2014, 11:48:25 pm
I'm pretty confident that it will keep the streets snow free at Daves place, but here in Sweden I measure about 200W/m2 at noon during clear sunny winter days, and peaking 1000-1100 W/m2 now in late june. Not sure how many watts will be left after the snows been falling all night and freezing up too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on June 20, 2014, 12:45:20 am
How far apart are these "raised hexagons"?

The surface area of a typical tyre contacting the road would be no more than 100 x 100mm (4x4"). The instant a braking tire hits a smooth section it will skid and hitting another "raised hexagon" an instant later will do nothing to overcome the force required to allow the disc to break free from the brake callipers.

As for environmental cred, even if this system worked at 110% efficiency, how many years would it take to recoup the negative environmental effects of obtaining the raw materials, manufacturing the tiles and installing them?

KISS... Here's a seemingly far better "green" solution
http://www.sydneymedia.com.au/taking-the-light-road-to-a-cooler-future/ (http://www.sydneymedia.com.au/taking-the-light-road-to-a-cooler-future/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2014, 12:54:00 am
From their FAQ http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqBikes (http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqBikes)
Quote
What about motorcycles and bicycles? Won't they slip on the glass surface? What about strollers, skates, skateboards, wheelchairs, etc.?
We have two types of surfaces:
1) a semi-smooth walking surface that is capable of stopping a car going 40-mph on a wet surface in the required distance
2) The one you see in the video with the raised hexagons was designed for highway use and can stop a car going 80-mph on a wet surface.

And they have tested that, how exactly?
Where is the video?
After 5 years of working on this and $850K, you'd think that'd be the first thing you test and demonstrate in a real scenario.
But no, they have gone walkabout and developed all the electronics and associated tech, without showing so much a single test run on the proposed surface.
 #1 requirement is that this be a suitable road surface.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: KD0CAC John on June 20, 2014, 01:04:47 am
Here in Minnesota U.S. where we have snow & ice , we use to have studs in our tires .
I think get a bag of them and install on my tires when these show up .
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 01:11:33 am
Here in Minnesota U.S. where we have snow & ice , we use to have studs in our tires .
I think get a bag of them and install on my tires when these show up .

Solar roads will not be implemented in Minnesoota until the glaciers recede.

if global warming kicks into high gear, that could happen as soon as 2095.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Rg8ApomgyHA/UCKc9pKvplI/AAAAAAAAAN0/DM00TFK0wdQ/s640/fargo1.jpeg)


(whole new perspective on foot-pounds...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: KD0CAC John on June 20, 2014, 01:36:06 am
I like the warmth between ice ages ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 01:43:16 am
I like the warmth between ice ages ;)

You guys rock :)

Don't know how you do it. Had a client north of Sioux Falls,  went up there one January.  -13F @ noon. -51F with windchill. Full heat on the rental car,  and still froze my butt.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on June 20, 2014, 02:04:56 am
Hi,

The would show it working, but they are waiting on delivery of their Mu Optics Thermal Camera  :-DD

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 20, 2014, 02:12:25 am
The video shows here as private :(

Nevermind, read the thread I'll wait until tomorrow

Edit: lets see their solar roadways melt this mess (Chicago this past winter)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98232;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98234;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98236;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98238;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98240;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2014, 03:32:30 am
Ok, replacement video has been uploaded. Fixed the video editing issues, and added a bit of extra stuff on LED consumption and payback calculations.
Sorry to all those who commented on youtube for the previous video, I can't transfer those comments over to the new video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 20, 2014, 04:25:14 am
Just adding in 5c about loading with a tractor, that is designed to spread the mass of it and the load out over a very broad area using the tyre patch. You can drive that JD over mud without it bogging down and digging a furrow, but try doing that with a legal 22m long superlink with 8 axles and a legal maximum all up load of 65 tons. There you will likely get 3 axle sets and nothing more off the hard paved roadway before it buries itself and stops axle deep.

Building sites have a big issue with trucks delivering building material especially just after they have laid a tar driveway, as the trucks easily either cut a furrow through the tar, or the driver dry steers and tears out divots of tar, and rolls them to another spot and sticks it down. Even a well cured tar surface will spread and furrow with heavy truck loads.

To use this you will need to have weighbridges on each entry to limit the allowable axle loads or else you wil break panels, no matter how thick. Even concrete roadways suffer from edge damage from heavy truck loads.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 20, 2014, 07:06:10 am
Dave's magic marker toss at the very end of the video is a thing of beauty.

He's a consummate professional.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on June 20, 2014, 08:31:35 am
Expensive dance floor for a nightclub?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 20, 2014, 08:38:32 am
The solution to this is simple - tilted roadways! Snow will be less likely to stay there, it'll just slide of gracefully, the efficiency will improve and everyone goes home happy! Also, make sure the glass is slippery, it'll repel the snow better!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on June 20, 2014, 08:46:38 am
Let's see a D10 run over the roadway. Or a tank :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 20, 2014, 08:48:12 am
I posted this in the comments:

Quote
Hmm. I was enthusiastic with this project first, thinking it was great that people where thinking environmentally and such. I’m not an engineer, but I felt alright with the concept, trusting what I do not know with the ones who supposedly do!

Well, It seems my judgement failed me this time. Look at this: www.eevblog.com (http://www.eevblog.com)

How can this be dis-proven?

Lets see if this will be allowed to stay...

Myself, I guess I was swayed by the government approval and funding etc... so my critical mind was kind of shut off. Though some part of me is hoping there's a method to the madness, and that the funds will go into a more serious type of engineering.
I mean, will they flee the country and live anonymously in some island somewhere? That certainly does not sound feasible to me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: madires on June 20, 2014, 08:54:35 am
No sane engineer would come up with the idea of using glass tiles for roadways. That idea is totally braindead! Those glass tiles won't stand dust and traffic for long, they're sanded down, which will also reduce the solar efficiency. What about friction and wear on tires? Add rain for more fun. Glass tiles would be deadly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 20, 2014, 08:55:25 am
It was promptly deleted  :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 08:57:39 am
33$/m^2/year  so they are actually claiming maximum of 30 years for these, that comes to around 990$/m^2/lifetime how much solar energy they have produced. If they are going to get roads that pay for itself during the lifetime....  :palm:

real quotes from their site:
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqLongetivity
How long will these Solar Road Panels last?

We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faq60trillion
Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second.

They should make 1 m^2 panels that lasts 300 years. Would almost break even on that $10K price point?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: madires on June 20, 2014, 09:05:19 am
It was promptly deleted  :P

The sad and dangerous thing is, that those people believe in their project. For us it's another scam.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DaveG on June 20, 2014, 10:33:22 am
The biggest problem, apart from the money, would simply be wear, glass isn't that durable.  Friction isn't much of problem as it mainly the physical key of the aggregates that provides the grip, having a textured surface should be able to keep that in check.  But then again the road noise could be hellish.

Also how are these panels anchored, the big test would be a heavily loaded truck doing an emergency stop.

But fundamentally I really want to see a snowplow go over them, would they just shatter, or would the plow catch the edge and create an expensive cascade of glass.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 10:46:06 am
The biggest problem, apart from the money, would simply be wear, glass isn't that durable.  Friction isn't much of problem as it mainly the physical key of the aggregates that provides the grip, having a textured surface should be able to keep that in check.  But then again the road noise could be hellish.

Also how are these panels anchored, the big test would be a heavily loaded truck doing an emergency stop.

But fundamentally I really want to see a snowplow go over them, would they just shatter, or would the plow catch the edge and create an expensive cascade of glass.

i would not like to be in the proximity of a 30tonnes truck during emergency braking on those tiles... that would be a hell of a flying shrapnel around it :D such a truck during intensive braking is deforming the tarmac/asphalt, so it would shatter those glass tiles for sure.

and the snowplow is a very good point  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2014, 10:52:35 am
It was promptly deleted  :P

LOL!
That says a lot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 11:02:06 am
But fundamentally I really want to see a snowplow go over them, would they just shatter, or would the plow catch the edge and create an expensive cascade of glass.
and the snowplow is a very good point  :-+
http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml (http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml)
They already "fixed" this issue... READ THE FAQ ON THEIR SITE
They installed heating pads in the roads to melt the snow. And:
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqClean
Here's the worst case scenario: if all else fails, we can replace snow plows with street sweepers where needed (vehicles with large rotating brushes). They're used here in Idaho in the spring to clear the roads of the sand that was used for traction during the winter months.
One could do whole series of videos just from their stupid write offs on how to fix problems.

btw the old video is still listed on twitter. if people want to find it they can find it on their youtube history anyways?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on June 20, 2014, 11:13:11 am
Talking about money, also what is going to be the environmental cost of recycling a patch of e.g. 1 Km of 'solar roadway' ?
Surely covered by the 33 USD/sqm*year returns, right? :bullshit:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 11:23:19 am
melting the snow is total bullshit  :bullshit:  :bullshit:  :bullshit:  you would need extreme amount of energy to melt the snow - orders of magnitude higher than the energy produced by the cells . not to mention the shitty efficiency during winter - sun is shining in a really shallow angle during winter, and if it's snowing ... well... the energy output of the cells will be in the zero-range ;)

and regarding the wipes instead of plows.... have they ever tried to wipe a compressed snow ? or will they wipe the roads constantly 24/7  to avoid compression of the snow by the vehicles ?

another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)

those solar-roadway guys either never seen a piece of snow or they are literally stupid  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: dexters_lab on June 20, 2014, 11:56:52 am
great video Dave,

personally i think they just got carried away with the idea

i wonder though if it could work if it was just used for off-road use, like driveways and parking lots it would simplify things greatly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2014, 12:03:26 pm
btw the old video is still listed on twitter. if people want to find it they can find it on their youtube history anyways?

I'll delete it tomorrow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2014, 12:06:05 pm
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)

Interesting point. Another one to add to the almost endless list of problems...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 12:14:00 pm
great video Dave,

personally i think they just got carried away with the idea

i wonder though if it could work if it was just used for off-road use, like driveways and parking lots it would simplify things greatly.

fully agree, they got carried away with the idea and they lack knowledge in the critical areas of road technology ;)

regarding off-road use - for parking lots it's useless - during daylight those are full of cars - blocking the light.

but we're discussing this topic with the colleagues at work, and one of the colleagues stated "actually it's great ! you could use those tiles with leds and pressure sensors  on playgrounds to build self-powered interactive games for children - children would love those"

or those could be used on public squares/plazas - producing electricity to lit up the public square during night (pumping energy to the grid during day and taking energy from the grid overnight).

so definitely the tiles itself would be useful in many applications, but definitely not for roads or parking lots !
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: VK5RC on June 20, 2014, 12:30:04 pm
On roads people and their cars have accidents, the vehicles are full of FLAMMABLE fuel, with a great ignition source (electricity) just below the surface, to me, is a bad mix, gawd help us if they put a hydrogen car on a solar roadway!
This project is very poor engineering, no you can't call it that; it really is Government support scheme raiding.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DenzilPenberthy on June 20, 2014, 12:40:02 pm
As has been mentioned above, it's solving a problem badly that does not exist. there is no shortage of roofs.

As for the melting snow thing - Daylight is turned into heat with almost 100% efficiency but roads still ice over. Derp!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1myb6wABV9E/UtBEXjPJjkI/AAAAAAAAcpQ/x6xuOneDS78/s1600/sun+could+you+help+me+with+this+snow+dr+heckle+funny+wtf+cartoons.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Artlav on June 20, 2014, 12:43:37 pm
This project feels a lot like Moller skycar - awesome but impractical, and not even well engineered for what is there.

Come to think about it, a lot of their problems would fly away, no pun intended, if they were to unite forces with  Moller International.

Assuming flying cars, there will be no problems with:
-Surface traction
-Thick glass for carrying weight
-Shading by cars
-LED marker consumption
-Heater consumption
-Inability to tilt the road to follow the sun
-Flammable liquids spilled from wrecks
-Salt for de-icing
-etc

Hmmmm.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DenzilPenberthy on June 20, 2014, 12:48:20 pm
I am 100% unconvinced by their claims about surface traction. As a motorcyclist there is no way I would ever ride on a glass road. Even white line paint and man-hole covers are dangerously slippy.

Aside from large oil/diesel spills, little oil drips get absorbed into the tarmac and don't become a problem. On glass they would just build up into an oily film over the whole thing. Lethal.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on June 20, 2014, 12:48:26 pm
Ok, ok.  Yea.  You guys LOVE to argue the tech specs of anything... 

BUT....All the technical details aside....I think Dave did a great job at the math.  BUT - to the consumer, he/she will put that aside and just call you a "Hater" - it was totally unconvincing to them - so a great job for nerds!  But to the the backers - that video will fly right over their head.  Hater's gonna hate!

I hope you all take a moment and thing about what the real issue is.....Let's step back and look at the bigger picture.

Science.  Or lack of science in schools.  That's what we are really talking about here.  Aren't we?  That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.  No clue how to do basic unit conversions (I didn't see anything in Dave's math that wasn't a factor, or a unit conversion - correct me if I'm wrong - basic stuff)

It's easy for science/engineering minded people like us to look all high and mighty over our friends/co-workers on a topic like this.  (some of you seem to revel in the fact you know more than your non-science friends)  Well, shame on you I say!  Stop patting yourself on the back, and start talking about the need for science in the classroom.  You know, in a non-I-m-smarter-than-you kind of way.

/end rant.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: waspinator on June 20, 2014, 12:50:16 pm
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 12:53:50 pm
This project feels a lot like Moller skycar - awesome but impractical, and not even well engineered for what is there.

Come to think about it, a lot of their problems would fly away, no pun intended, if they were to unite forces with  Moller International.

Assuming flying cars, there will be no problems with:
-Surface traction
-Thick glass for carrying weight
-Shading by cars
-LED marker consumption
-Heater consumption
-Inability to tilt the road to follow the sun
-Flammable liquids spilled from wrecks
-Salt for de-icing
-etc

Hmmmm.

that would be awesome ! they should definitely cooperate ! :D (who cares about the fact that you don't need roads for flying cars :D the government will buy it and that matters !  :-DD )
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 20, 2014, 12:57:50 pm
Quote
This project feels a lot like Moller skycar - awesome but impractical, and not even well engineered for what is there.

Come to think about it, a lot of their problems would fly away, no pun intended, if they were to unite forces with  Moller International.

Assuming flying cars, there will be no problems with:
-Surface traction
-Thick glass for carrying weight
-Shading by cars
-LED marker consumption
-Heater consumption
-Inability to tilt the road to follow the sun
-Flammable liquids spilled from wrecks
-Salt for de-icing
-etc

Hmmmm.
To hell with cars, I want portals!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 01:02:14 pm
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?

Sure just install servo motors on them, for every engineering problem there is a solution.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: w2aew on June 20, 2014, 01:11:25 pm
Dave's magic marker toss at the very end of the video is a thing of beauty.

He's a consummate professional.

If only the marker stayed on Dave's head at the end - that would've been classic!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 01:17:11 pm
Dave's magic marker toss at the very end of the video is a thing of beauty.

He's a consummate professional.

If only the marker stayed on Dave's head at the end - that would've been classic!

This sounds like an engineering problem waiting for a solution. If we can build solar roadways, sure we can get one FRINKIN' marker to stay on one head? It would have some added bonuses... every time Dave scratches is head (I was watching live stream and he scratched his head ALOT while filming solar roadways episode) but anyways everytime he scratches head he would have marker right at his hand. Hmm maybe MAGNETS, and solar panels. Not just any stupid permanent magnets, Dynamic! magnets that change their strenght based on the needs!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 01:20:26 pm
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?

Sure just install servo motors on them, for every engineering problem there is a solution.  :-+

actually you could make small tetrahedron features in the PCB and place 3 LEDs - one to each face of the tetrahedron to cover a complete half-sphere :D
but i would like to see the manufacturer's face when you ask him make those small tetrahedron features on the PCB and to do 3D pick-and-place of the LEDs  :-DD :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 01:28:04 pm
actually you could make small tetrahedron features in the PCB and place 3 LEDs - one to each face of the tetrahedron to cover a complete half-sphere :D
but i would like to see the manufacturer's face when you ask him make those small tetrahedron features on the PCB and to do 3D pick-and-place of the LEDs  :-DD :-DD :-DD
Hmm what about one of those 3d displays. 3D display means the picture pops up from the flat surface. 3D display would have better resolution than RGB leds, so we could as a result even better giant display at our disposal! THERE IS NO LIMIT TO HUMAN INGENUITY!  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 20, 2014, 01:37:44 pm
Actually a cheap optical grade plastic light guide will help, but you still have to use enough current to make them brighter than the sun or your headlights at night.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 01:43:24 pm
Or we can just disable headlights at night, since road will warn us if there is anything on the road we should know about  :-+
Remember these are smart roads.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Ross_ValuSoft on June 20, 2014, 02:08:20 pm
Roads usually are meant to have cars and trucks on them. So unless these guys are suggesting transparent cars and trucks, the more the roads are used the less sunlight will actually reach these panels. Their greatest efficiency is when the roads are deserted. Maybe they also invented the solar powered torch... the one without any energy storage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 20, 2014, 02:23:48 pm
Science.  Or lack of science in schools.  That's what we are really talking about here.  Aren't we?  That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.

This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.

That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.

It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Len on June 20, 2014, 03:30:50 pm
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)
That at least shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Traffic lights already have electronics to control them, and cables and inductive loops running under the street.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Dinsdale on June 20, 2014, 03:53:09 pm
I haven't been able to find anything like a mechanical drawing, close-up shots of the edges/bottom, or specifications.  Does anyone have a link?

I saw one video with an installation being done in what looks like a garage.  It demonstrated the led usage for lane markers and text.  However, that looked to be constructed of larger rectangular panels - NOT the hexagonal panels. Also, cabling seemed to be on the bottom surface.  This seems to be what they call "phase 1".  Is that true for the (phase 2) hex panels?
What is the interconnect system between hex panels?  If you allow random panel replacement, they must be able to lift-out/push-in, right?  That implies some type of wiper contact.
How are they fastened to the substrate surface?  Bolted down?  The substrate must be restrained from moving within some tolerance.  What happens when you pull a panel, allowing adjoining panels to move slightly together and the bolt center-lines move, and there is not enough space to fit the replacement or the bolt holes don't line up?  What is the spec. on that amount of movement?
What is panel-to-panel seal?  What is the effect of water, ice, insects, etc.?
What is the spec on change in the vertical plane?
Electrical problems aside, how would this mechanically ever have any kind of integrity or lifespan? 
Does he keep the $2M when nothing comes of this?

But it he wants to get some taxpayer money, he should come to Dallas, Tx.  The city council there will go for any half-baked idea such as this.  After all, they built the $100M, 6-lane highway bridge that, west-bound, ends at a surface street intersection (numerous accidents). And they want to build a major roadway INSIDE the Trinity River levy system
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: sunnyhighway on June 20, 2014, 04:00:41 pm
and regarding the wipes instead of plows.... have they ever tried to wipe a compressed snow ? or will they wipe the roads constantly 24/7  to avoid compression of the snow by the vehicles ?

Maybe they 'll put some fancy high-tech windshield wipers on those tiles.
This of course, would require quite a lot of maintenance to prevent this from happening.
VERY SQUEAKY WIPER ARM NISSAN MICRA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1pKbdNrcDU#)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Tek_TDS220 on June 20, 2014, 04:01:45 pm
I had to laugh at this quixotic effort by Dave.  Of course, he is correct.  You can argue about the details, but the conclusion is unassailable.

Solar Roadways knows that their claims wouldn't pass the smell test with knowledgeable engineers and scientists.  However, their audience is gullible officials and the public who are willing to fund this work.  They have been successful so far.

You could do a video like this every day about technology 'breakthroughs' that we see in the media.  The latest one that makes me laugh is hydrocarbon fuels by electrolysis of sea water (US Navy).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 04:15:50 pm
What is offensive is the degreed people who should know better are on board with this crap.

http://www.solarroadways.com/board.shtml (http://www.solarroadways.com/board.shtml)

we've got a legitimate problem with certain members of academia who pad their incomes with endless government grants, without any legitimate goal beyond getting more grants.

If people or companies want to fund perpetual motion projects (and their ilk), fine. Just stop doing it with tax dollars.

When this turd fails, all government subsidies should be recovered from the bank accounts of these charlatans.


I'm all for research,  but this would get a failing grade as an undergraduate engineering project.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 04:20:16 pm
another point is the SALT - it's common to use road salt to decrease the freezing point of the water and therefore avoid formation of ice on the roads.. how long will those tiles last in such a extremely salty environment during winters ? we all know what is salty water doing with electronics and cables ;)
That at least shouldn't be an insurmountable problem. Traffic lights already have electronics to control them, and cables and inductive loops running under the street.

trafic light are not immersed in the salty environment, the cables are in insulated cable paths under the surface, induction loops are submersed in tarmac/asphalt... neither of those are directly stressed by the heavy vehicles... and even if they fail it's quite easy to repair.

but we're here talking about a whole road made of electronic devices... there is no way to avoid the salty water to go inside the tiles - those tiles will be constantly stressed by the heavy vehicles - forming microscopic cracks - and those cracks are very welcome by the salty water in order to extend it's territory :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 04:22:28 pm
Does he keep the $2M when nothing comes of this?
Why of course they will keep it. As long as there is reasonable proof they are using it to do what it was meant to do. They don't have to succeed! Why would project doomed to fail succeed?
They will hire people and hire themselves on this. They will pay themselves and everyone else professional wages. Why wouldn't they do that? They will continue to do this and maybe get few more government grants/whatever.
They will address all the coming problems same way they have done it so far, by just bodging something not thinking about it. If they don't do anything "wrong" they have no reason to stop doing it.
For most people just working on something and getting paid is all the same. They will make maybe a bigger prototype parking lot while they "finalize" their design, that money will be fast used and then there is nothing left.
When they have used all the money maybe they can start auctioning all the green solar roadways panels they have built and accumulated over time. Those people look old so maybe they will stretch it and retire because they are old.
Someone younger will come and take over. Remember people those are donations, you don't usually have to pay donations back unless you do something wrong or flat out lie.
They have NOT been trying to prove themselves wrong so far (that would be too easy) instead they are trying work around these obvious problems.
Why would they come out and say these same solar cells would be put to so much better use on our roof than on the road surface? Just because something is obvious doesn't mean they have to do it.

Can it be built? Yes!
Does it cost a lot? Yes!
Does it make sense? NO!

Maybe in 20-50 years some new nanotechnology discovery will come out and we can fix smart nanotube transistors into asphalt mix. Then everyone who believed in solar roadways will come out "AHA I TOLDS YOUS SO!".
Funny how it only took that long to make this somewhat reality. Or maybe we will grow our durable roads, houses and everything naturally, into the shape we desire, with nanobots/whatever and it all will collect the suns energy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 20, 2014, 04:29:12 pm
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.

That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.

It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.

That's what it seems like, yes. They say that the Federal Highway Administration is overseeing their work (engineers and all), giving them funding, etc
Very strange...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 04:35:39 pm
Many (not all) government engineers would not last a month in industry.

Have we talked about condensation inside these? Or will they be filled with nitrogen?

30 year hermetic glass road tiles. Right.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 20, 2014, 04:40:39 pm
Well, they deleted my comment in the discussion to their channel. And somehow the number of comments is getting lower rather than higher. I'm sure it's all legit and they have nothing to hide and can back everything up.

Quote
30 year hermetic glass road tiles. Right.
With active power connections to the outside world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 04:44:38 pm
Well, they deleted my comment in the discussion to their channel. And somehow the number of comments is getting lower rather than higher. I'm sure it's all legit and they have nothing to hide and can back everything up.

PT Barnum and all that.

Junk like this will be a (possibly deserved) black eye for un-vetted crowdfunding.

Screws things up for legitimate,  well thought out product development.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 04:45:21 pm
Have we talked about condensation inside these? Or will they be filled with nitrogen?

30 year hermetic glass road tiles. Right.

Another problem that is a show stopper for the whole idea?  :-DD

Where do all these problems keep coming from? How can someone design something that has so many inherent problems?

I guess they could do it like real solar panels are done, it's all inside clear epoxy. If I'm not wrong the top coating on solar panels is clear epoxy to let light in, glue the solar cells into their place, make them less likely to break. But clear epoxy was probably never meant to be driven over by cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 04:59:24 pm
Guess we could pot everything.  So add in 30 yr optically clear thermally expansion matched wide temperature range electronics grade (no home depot silicone rtv, thank you very much) potting compound to the mix.

Maybe we'll bypass galvanic connections with qi-like inductive coupling.

Cost & weight goin up, as are losses.


Maybe they can reanimate Michael Jackson as their spokeszombie...

(http://www.vettri.net/gallery/celeb/michael_jackson/Videoshoots-Billie-Jean/MichaelJackson_Videoshoots-Billie-Jean-Vettri.Net-07.jpg)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=see_H45a13M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=see_H45a13M#)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 20, 2014, 05:13:52 pm
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.

That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.

It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.

That's what it seems like, yes. They say that the Federal Highway Administration is overseeing their work (engineers and all), giving them funding, etc
Very strange...

Did you consider that the solar roadway guys might just bend the truth "slightly" when they make such statements?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 05:14:41 pm
Once they get this project rolling on it's own. They should tackle world hunger. Imagine fields that automatically detect what plants are growing on them and nurture and water the plants automatically.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 05:18:07 pm
Once they get this project rolling on it's own. They should tackle world hunger. Imagine fields that automatically detect what plants are growing on them and nurture and water the plants automatically.

That would require too much infrastructure.

What we need are smart clouds.

Fund meeeeeeeeeeeee
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 05:21:31 pm
Once they get this project rolling on it's own. They should tackle world hunger. Imagine fields that automatically detect what plants are growing on them and nurture and water the plants automatically.

That would require too much infrastructure.

What we need are smart clouds.

Fund meeeeeeeeeeeee

Smart weather, I think I saw conspiracy document about that one. In some remote location us government had huge facility, they were planning to control the weather to attack their enemies. Too bad controlling the weather somewhere has consequences everywhere in the world? Remember that stargate episode when they stole the weather control alien device and took it to earth?

Why don't we have crowdfunding for that small device that looked like little planet and had some rings on it which controlled the weather? That would be really handy... maybe we could limit the adjustment area to only few kilometers.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 05:38:16 pm
Smart clouds are doable.

Smart weather is doable.

Smart politicians,  ummm...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: retrolefty on June 20, 2014, 05:41:41 pm
Typical green dreaming project. And when it fails they will just say it would work fine if man made global climate change was solved first.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 05:42:12 pm
Smart weather could be used in conjunction with solar roadways. When solar roadways need cleaning we clean them with remotely controlled smart clouds. Also in the winter we don't let the snow rain on the roads we just rain it somewhere else. No more snow problem on the solar roadways so we don't need to melt all that snow. Use smart weather save energy!  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 20, 2014, 06:08:14 pm
This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.

That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.

It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.

That's what it seems like, yes. They say that the Federal Highway Administration is overseeing their work (engineers and all), giving them funding, etc
Very strange...

Did you consider that the solar roadway guys might just bend the truth "slightly" when they make such statements?

Yes! It's not just that, they needed to bend and twist a lot of things for this to work, obviously. This really a sweet trap for eco-oriented people, devised by a clever psychologist and an imposing, decorated and authoritative figure.

Hopefully something interesting happens later on, at least they could deliver some more realistic ideas.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on June 20, 2014, 06:21:23 pm
If for a moment, we set aside all the minor (lol) technical and material challenges involved with "Solar Roadways", the bit i am struggling to understand is why you would even want to attempt to make such a thing?

For example, the current major issues with existing solar panels and energy generation from them are:

1) Low total conversion efficiency (only ~25% max efficiency - photons -> electrons)
2) Expensive to make
3) The age badly and are mechanically fragile
4) They only work when the sun is shining, so unless your power network is on a GLOBAL scale, you will always need some energy storage capability or accept that your system will not output at night

The one solar generation "problem" that is not currently a problem is

A) Insufficient space on which to mount solar panels.


So, on which one of those would it be most sensible to spend $2M to find a solution/improvement?


(and that is why "solar roadways" is ridiculous........ ;-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: 128er on June 20, 2014, 06:31:08 pm
Maybe they can collaborate with the russian government. They have many kilometers of roads and are very knowledgeable about good weather :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8587725.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8587725.stm)

I have the dumb feeling, that they could persuade some dumb politicians with their solar roadways idea. And millions or billions of taxes could end up in the bin (would not be the first time in Germany for example :palm: ).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 20, 2014, 06:36:51 pm
So, on which one of those would it be most sensible to spend $2M to find a solution/improvement?
(and that is why "solar roadways" is ridiculous........ ;-)
Except they are not trying to find solution/improvement... They already have it!  :-DD

Here is quote from the bottom of their page. Usually every crowdfunding will put this at the bottom of the page...

"We asked for $1 million to hire an initial team of engineers to help us make a few needed tweaks in our product and streamline our process so that we could go from prototype to production. "
They are going into production with this stuff! They are not trying to find any solution, they are directly saying what they will use the money for.

They are not looking for evil mad scientists to make their dreams and hopes to come real.

They are by their own words going to go from prototype to production. They have already spewed out that prototype parking lot, if they had any new real invention that could change the world, they would have already used and showed it to us. They are still using current technology and current material.

Quote
How can your donation help?
We asked for $1 million to hire an initial team of engineers to help us make a few needed tweaks in our product and streamline our process so that we could go from prototype to production. Thanks to your generous donations, we've met and exceeded our goal - thank you so much!

We've posted on our Facebook fan site asking for resumes: 

"Our immediate need is for the following: Mechanical Engineer, Civil Engineer, Structural Engineer, Manufacturing Engineer (Production Specialist), Materials Engineer, and Environmental Engineer. Experience in solar, renewable energy or hydrology a bonus. We also need an experienced CFO."

We plan to begin hiring in June and we're looking for office space to rent in Sandpoint, Idaho. Our initial goal was for a bare bones staff, the minimal amount of design engineers that we estimated would help us make it to production. The additional funds that are being contributed now will allow us hire even more people, which will allow us to move even faster. Also there will be a need for parts, equipment and supplies.

Some of the additional positions on our wish list that that we also may be able to hire (depending on our final total) include: Software Engineers, IT Professionals, Cyber Security experts, etc. 

We feel truly blessed and overwhelmed with the outpouring of support from around the world. The time for Solar Roadways has come, and you each now have a part in it - thank you so very much!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: elektron on June 20, 2014, 06:43:17 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

quote from video: "believing in something is not enough to make it work" ...


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 06:52:27 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

yes. smell that too!

i know i'll be warned off by the moderators/admins for this... but i couldn't help myself...

Dear Mr. "elektron" could you please be so kind and f**k yourself ? Thank you in advance !

Your sincerely,

Rob77.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rolycat on June 20, 2014, 06:52:52 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

yes. smell that too!
I dunno about bullshit, but I certainly smell a troll. Even stinkier.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: calzap on June 20, 2014, 06:55:51 pm
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?

Yup, they can be angled.  Lights embedded in " roadways" are already common.  Go to any major jet airport at night, and you'll see embedded guide lights in taxiways.  And they are angled.  For two-way traffic, they have to be in sets that face opposite directions.

Dave is right though.  Project as a whole stinks.

Mike in California
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: elektron on June 20, 2014, 06:57:38 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

yes. smell that too!

i know i'll be warned off by the moderators/admins for this... but i couldn't help myself...

Dear Mr. "elektron" could you please be so kind and f**k yourself ? Thank you in advance !

Your sincerely,

Rob77.


dude. i couldn't care less about your reactions, or warnings to admins. so far, you (and others)
are the only ones swearing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 20, 2014, 07:00:10 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

yes. smell that too!

i know i'll be warned off by the moderators/admins for this... but i couldn't help myself...

Dear Mr. "elektron" could you please be so kind and f**k yourself ? Thank you in advance !

Your sincerely,

Rob77.


dude. i couldn't care less about your reactions, or warnings to admins. so far, you (and others)
are the only ones swearing.

actually it was intelligence test for you ;) and you failed miserably ;) i'm very sorry for the living beings in your proximity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 20, 2014, 07:23:29 pm
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...

quote from video: "believing in something is not enough to make it work" ...

If you have evidence or scientific analysis to the contrary (apollo),  by all means, start a thread on it.

This thread is on solar roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: brims on June 20, 2014, 07:55:22 pm
I am 100% unconvinced by their claims about surface traction. As a motorcyclist there is no way I would ever ride on a glass road. Even white line paint and man-hole covers are dangerously slippy.

Aside from large oil/diesel spills, little oil drips get absorbed into the tarmac and don't become a problem. On glass they would just build up into an oily film over the whole thing. Lethal.

Add to that their "hexagon traction patches" or whatever they are, and you're screwed. Ever catch a crack with your motorcycle tire? It's quite a pucker moment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Dinsdale on June 20, 2014, 07:57:08 pm
Quote
Dave is convienced solar roadways are BULLSHIT (which they might be) but he also believes
Appolo Program did put a man on the Moon...
Well, IF Dave said APOLLO put A man on the moon, then he was wrong (but you have to be nitpicking).  Apollo missions put 12 men on the moon.  You can't even spell Apollo.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LaurenceW on June 20, 2014, 08:03:54 pm
Hold on, Hold on, I think we are all missing a few basic points, here. Don't all of our current roads work without LED lighting, 24/7? Of course they do - with the aid of PAINTED LINES, and REFLECTORS. Zero power consumption, cheap, very high mtbf. So let's forget the idea of (embedded in the road) LED lighting, right now. That must have been a stupid throw-away line by somebody who hadn't done the math.

So do solar roads make sense, now? No. "G'day mate. We're repairing the sewer/water mains/gas/phone/electricity (how ironic would that last one be??) in the road, so we're gonna be out there with our jack hammers lifting the road. Strewth! those glass splinters sure fly! No woarries, mate, after we're done, you won't know we've been..." erm.

The sad thing is that some people will beleive that this is doable, and when they finally realise it isn't will assume that no solar power can be the answer (when in truth, it wasn't even the question). It's all more misinformation on a topic that's just too important for this treatment.

MUCH better idea - why not just put tried-and-tested solar panels on angled frames, down central reservations and alongside major roads (how about rail lines?), and/or on the verges?

Of course, it's not nearly so sexy, but we should be spending the money on figuring our how to use less energy in the first place, than simply (trying to) make more of the wrong sort, to feed our society.

(Moon-lander deniers - Have you checked with the Russians or Japanese, who have each taken their own hi-res photos of the landing sites? Or are they in on your conspiracy "theory", too? Good grief).

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stitch on June 20, 2014, 08:31:12 pm
Typical green dreaming project.

While we're at it, what's so green about solar when you have to cut down trees so that the sun hits the panels?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: elektron on June 20, 2014, 09:28:37 pm
First of all. It is not me to prove they didn't landed on the Moon. You cannot prove a negative.
They need to prove they went and i saw they were helping themselves by kicking people who
asked pertinent but challanging questions. (see the movies with the press conference of armstrong)

Second, Appolo or whatever you spell that is the Pagan god, the sun god, helios or IO. Do the
research and your will understand pretty easily that they use cryptic language to encode
messages (in this case appolo is used for deceiving), so that is how they won the cold war and
pushed companies like IBM / Apple / Microsoft to lead the technology revolution.

Third, I do speak your imperial language - english (which spreaded across the planet like a virus),
whereas i can't assume any of you passes the beginner's test for any other foreign language (with
the rare exceptions of course)

And last but not least: this ideea with solar roadways is by far the most idiotic thought an american
is hit when he / she contemplates the disastrous state their roads are in, but ...  if i remember
correctly: dave preached here something like: "one child, one idea can change the world".

So maybe the leds will be altogether forgoten. Or maybe there will be used for paving the alleys
in parks .. However that be, the idea needs exploring, learning and actually see if it feasable or not.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: MindBender on June 20, 2014, 09:45:15 pm
You're right Dave, the idea doesn't make much sense when adding up the numbers, no matter how much we want it to work. But I have to make a little remark on de LEDs: When manufacturing LEDs in large enough numbers, they can be designed with a custom radiation pattern to direct the output in a more suitable pattern. Alternatively an external lens or light guide could be used, or even integrated into the glass. But that's still not enough to make it highly visible in daylight conditions.

You were too generous with your numbers on another field: Roads are usually filled with cars. At least for 10% during daytime. And electrically heating a road to thaw any ice on it is sheer madness.

Then there's still wear and damage; A truck blowing a tire will break at least 200 meters worth of panels, trying to stop while driving on its rim. That will cost a small fortune to repair. Just like water creeping in cracks and freezing up, already destroying regular tarmac.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 20, 2014, 09:48:56 pm
First of all. It is not me to prove they ...negative feedback blabla... feasable or not.

I've read all your posts, all of them negative, most aggressive/looking for a fight (while implying it's ALWAYS the the other party who does), are you sure you are not confusing this with the Youtube comments section?

I'm a new here too (we were EEVblog born at similar times). I've been watching Dave's videos for 6 months and find them very useful and accessible.
For the theoretical splitting flies butt hair lengthwise faffing around, I ask my professors or consult the Wildi.
What was your motivation to join? I came here for help on electronics and the friendly banter. You're kinda getting in the way of both.

You're not happy here, why stay?

(Mods - if you find this too personal, please delete)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 20, 2014, 09:55:59 pm
... A truck blowing a tire will break at least 200 meters worth of panels, trying to stop while driving on its rim...

I used to do  Speed-skating racing on roads for a few years at a pretty good level (until a unrelated bicycle crash snapped my leg) and we are/were totally dependent on the road surface.

So we tended to check all the critical places before races and you'd be amazed at how even "super smooth" road are gouged!
Someone must be dragging crushed cars up and down roads in the dead o f night :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TheWelly888 on June 20, 2014, 10:08:19 pm
Thanks Dave, I enjoyed all 4 of Thunderf00t's videos debunking solar roadways! My favourite is the claimed military application!  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Zad on June 20, 2014, 10:24:25 pm
Have they explained why they don't just mount these on houses or (better still) public buildings and factories? No requirements for lighting, or ultra high durability encapsulation, minimal degradation, and no need to remove them for access to utilities.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: s_lannan on June 20, 2014, 10:26:29 pm
 :palm:
I wouldn't buy a fire extinguisher off the people who dreamed up this bullshit even if I was on fire.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Tothwolf on June 20, 2014, 11:05:40 pm
What happens when I drop a load binder or tow chain on one of these surfaces and then drive over it? ;)

Dave, love the video, but one minor correction... The standard voltage in the US isn't 110V.

Single phase 3-wire (the ground/earth wire isn't counted) AC voltage in the US for household and light commercial is 120V between the hot and neutral conductors (neutral is tied to ground/earth at the main electric panel) and 240V between the two hot conductors. With this system, smaller loads use 120V while larger loads usually use 240V. Streetlights in the US also tend to use 240V.

Another common system is three phase 4-wire 120/208V where 120V is present between hot and neutral and 208V is present between hot conductors. In many commercial buildings, three phase 277/480V and 347/600V are also common.

Realistically, I don't see why they couldn't design their stuff to use higher and more transmission efficient voltages.

That said, maybe they should look into high frequency AC, where the conductors could be kept smaller and the losses would be less? You could even use copper plated aluminum or copper plated steel conductors. Of course with high frequency AC you can then start to get into all kinds of RF issues...

To deal with the LED viewing angle issue, perhaps they could pair two LEDs back to back at about a 60 degree angle under the glass surface?

Rather than use LEDs for entire lines, it seems like it might make more sense to use a more traditional painted line and instead use LEDs in place of the nighttime reflectors that they commonly glue down on roadways. Still, how would they provide the bumps that those reflectors also provide? Those bumps are there to provide physical indication (in addition to a visual indicator) that you are driving over them.

Meh... This thing is still a gilded turd and I don't see how they can possibly make it work.

While I don't see these things being suitable for roadways, I wonder if they could design something one could tile an entire roof with that could stand up to hailstones?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 21, 2014, 12:32:19 am
Have they explained why they don't just mount these on houses or (better still) public buildings and factories? No requirements for lighting, or ultra high durability encapsulation, minimal degradation, and no need to remove them for access to utilities.
Are you trying to say mount them like normal solar panels that actually work ok for that purpose?
They got the 850K$ for building road surface that will pay for itself over the course of it's lifetime. That is what they are directly saying, they must have presented some form of rough idea how they were going to achieve that. Now we are seeing that prototype surface as the result. All they had to do is make it work somehow. Since they probably have now only calculations that can be easily twisted to make them favorable, I think they have might have succeeded in getting to that goal. But they must be literally pulling every string to have any chance of getting there. There is a reason they are comparing normal road surface maintenance costs and saying it's expensive, because they must have just written those off as their "savings". Penny saved is penny earned. It doesn't change anything that they are saying they can do all these amazing stuff with microcontrollers, those are there just to sidetrack people and make them think there is actually something into this. Maybe it's sensory overload when your brain starts firing and soon all you can think is "shut up and take my money" didn't they say they are "engineering couple" he is engineer and wife is therapist or something? Maybe she is more like a brain engineer?  :-DD Using peoples own brains against them, this equivalent of bully hitting your face with your own hand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 21, 2014, 01:27:29 am
How about solar freakin' roofracks? At least they'll be facing the sun more than the roads will.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on June 21, 2014, 05:02:12 am
Dave, et. al.,

The Solar Roadways clan actually live just up the road from me.  I saw this happy horse manure back 2010 when they were pitching this scheme to the local IEEE group.  It's one of the reasons I've seen fit to not renew membership in IEEE.  They really lost credibility with me on this one.

If you think the glass tiles are ridiculous, you should have seen the first revision. 

The real pisseroo about all this is that the $2M these guys have received could have been well-spent on renewables (about 1/2 MWe of *practical* solar could have been installed), or alternate transportation projects such as more bike paths - many of which need to be linked together here to form a non-motorized transportation network locally. 

I thought this whole thing had died until I saw the dozens of press stories recently.  I'm not an Idaho resident (which was where the pet congress-critter lives), but I might try writing a few people to see if common sense can prevail, and at least no more taxpayer funds are wasted on this. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 21, 2014, 05:27:01 am
and wife is therapist or something? Maybe she is more like a brain engineer?  :-DD Using peoples own brains against them, this equivalent of bully hitting your face with your own hand.

That is an angle which is maybe worth exploring a bit more. She is supposed to be a licensed clinical professional counselor. It would be interesting to see which manipulative techniques from her job they are using in their funding campaign.

It would also be interesting to check if her credentials are real, i.e. if she really has that license, and which university or professional organization was involved. Actually, the same for him. Where on earth did he get his engineering degree from?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 07:12:09 am
Does he keep the $2M when nothing comes of this?

Yes, they keep every cent.
Legally they are "donations" so they aren't legally obligated to do anything with the money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: VK3DRB on June 21, 2014, 07:13:46 am
There is an old saying: A fool and his money are soon parted. The world is full of fools.

I learnt years ago never invest in something you know nothing about. The investors in these road tiles will lose their money. A masters degree or a PhD does disqualify you from being a fundamental idiot.

There is a story about a roofing tiler who invented a revolutionary engine - the split cycle engine. Sir Jack Brabham even endorsed it. To cut a long story short, it went nowhere and investors lost virtually everything. The roofing tiler walked off with many millions of dollars in his pocket.

Peter Brock made a fool of himself with his "Energy Polarizer"containing crystals and magnets in an epoxy resin that, it was claimed, improved the performance and handling of vehicles through "aligning the molecules". A load of :bullshit:.

The religious Y2K spruikers gave the computing industry a bad name. Conmen who had few abilities other than spreading fear over Y2K and making money out of it.

Dave's video reminds us that if it is too good to be true, it probably is. And do your homework always.




 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 07:20:50 am
BUT....All the technical details aside....I think Dave did a great job at the math.  BUT - to the consumer, he/she will put that aside and just call you a "Hater"

Totally.
They are immediately deleting any reference to this video or any other negative or questioning comments on their Indiegogo and Facebook pages.
Any who questions anything is just a hater, or a shill for big oil or some other group, and trying to stop them from realising their incredible invention that will change the wold  ::)
Doesn't matter hard nicely you come at them with facts and real data, that stuff doesn't matter, their product works:
Quote
Our technology works. Now it's time to gear up for manufacturing.
Quote
We asked for $1 million to hire an initial team of engineers to help us make a few needed tweaks in our product and streamline our process so that we could go from prototype to production.
:palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 07:30:37 am
It would also be interesting to check if her credentials are real, i.e. if she really has that license, and which university or professional organization was involved. Actually, the same for him. Where on earth did he get his engineering degree from?

www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=101697298 (http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=101697298)
University of Dayton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dayton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dayton)
Explains the gold cross hanging around his neck in the photos.
From his Facebook profile:
Quote
Non-denominational Bible-believing servant of the Lord Jesus Christ
Well, that all explains the delusion part and lack of ability to accept and reason facts and evidence.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 07:35:17 am
The Solar Roadways clan actually live just up the road from me.  I saw this happy horse manure back 2010 when they were pitching this scheme to the local IEEE group.  It's one of the reasons I've seen fit to not renew membership in IEEE.  They really lost credibility with me on this one.

So what was the reaction from the IEEE members pitched at?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on June 21, 2014, 07:38:20 am
If you compare their return on investment with concrete or tarmac, they win ;)




Deleting of counter arguments on their pages worries me more than anything else.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 07:47:08 am
Dave made a few mistakes here. It's still bullshit, but not quite as bad as he said.
The heating would be grid powered. Presumably it would only be used in areas where it was really important.

Of course the heating would be grid powered (it's covered by snow!). If I implied otherwise then that was not my intent.
The whole point is that the solar power generated over the (good part of the) year doesn't stand a chance of offsetting the ridiculous amount of energy required to melt the snow during the winter months.
So if it can't do that, then this whole solar roadways idea as a whole is a complete fail (again) right there. Just put the heaters under existing roads if you want to pursue that silly idea.
Heating the roads is probably one of the stupidest idea of this entire campaign, and that's saying something, because this campaign has so many doozies to choose from.

Quote
The LEDs could easily be angled like cats eyes already are. Presumably fixed road markings would be painted on, and standard cat's eyes used. The LEDs would be for special cases.

But they aren't proposing that.
Remember, this project is complete and working, and they are using the money to take it straight into production!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 21, 2014, 07:58:42 am
I've seen solar powered cat eyes in Paris. It took about 5 years and 3 generations before that things could stand up to daily abuse.
And that's a fat metal stud, not a pane of glass.
http://warragullighting.com.au/solar-road-stud---led-cats-eye.html (http://warragullighting.com.au/solar-road-stud---led-cats-eye.html) - But that's the elcrapo version - Paris has stainless stee variation (last time I checked - 3 years ago).
The 1.1 or 2.0 generation was the "surface mount" stuck with a blob of resin. Brilliant, and worked really well.
It took about a month for some enterprising dickhead to find a way to cut them off with a hot wire... Duh.
So now the city must do hole under them to slot them in with the glue.

Disclaimer:
I used to work for Meyvaert in Belgium, a major glass and super tough museum display manufacturer. So I can't say anything about glass itself in case I blurt out something I'm still under NDA about.
http://www.meyvaert.be/corporate/en (http://www.meyvaert.be/corporate/en)
All I can say, is that knowing what I know, I would NEVER do what they are doing the way they are doing it. There are FAR better/simpler/cheaper ways. I just don't know which ones are in the public domain....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 21, 2014, 08:31:23 am
The embedded ones are in use here, and so far have done over 5 years with heavy use and lots of abuse. They are mostly surviving, and as they are buried flush with the roadway and are held by both epoxy and a set of security screws they seem to be theft proof. They are not even being stolen for the scrap metal content.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 21, 2014, 08:35:27 am
Heating the roads is probably one of the stupidest idea of this entire campaign, and that's saying something, because this campaign has so many doozies to choose from.

Road heating is actually done - under special conditions,  in very few areas.

For example, the have an abundance of geothermal energy in Iceland --> road heating.

http://www.nea.is/geothermal/direct-utilization/snow-melting/ (http://www.nea.is/geothermal/direct-utilization/snow-melting/)

Hey, even heating a beach, no problem if you have the energy:
http://coolcooliceland.blogspot.de/2007/12/geothermal-iceland-heating-up-of-roads.html (http://coolcooliceland.blogspot.de/2007/12/geothermal-iceland-heating-up-of-roads.html)

It becomes stupid if you don't have that energy
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: G7PSK on June 21, 2014, 08:42:34 am
I dont see how these glass tiles would stand up to real traffic use, The tractor show on them could have 20 tons and not broken a tile as Tyre pressure is relatively low but the impact loading of a 40 ton truck wheel bouncing up and down is something else and there will also be other impact loads such as that shovel show in the photo dropping, they will just break up in use no need to worry about electrical loses etc they will never get past highways surface testing. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 21, 2014, 08:52:29 am
And what about studs and chains? Are studded winter tires legal in the US?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: KedasProbe on June 21, 2014, 09:05:34 am
Haven't watch the whole video (yet)
Just some remark about adding percentages.
-10% -10% -20% = -40%  of 150W/m²
Would better be:
0.9 * 0.9 * 0.8 = 0.648 or about 35% loss instead of 40%
(sequentiality losing X% will never get you to 100% loss, if X is smaller than 100% for each step)

Obviously since it are best guesses anyway it doesn't really matter much.
You could add them if they were all referenced to the 150W/m² (and not input versus output of each loss), but I don't think it was meant that way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 09:30:50 am
Road heating is actually done - under special conditions,  in very few areas.
For example, the have an abundance of geothermal energy in Iceland --> road heating.

Sure, even the craziest of ideas can be not so crazy under niche circumstances.
Good numbers there for feasibility calcs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 09:33:25 am
You could add them if they were all referenced to the 150W/m² (and not input versus output of each loss), but I don't think it was meant that way.

Yes, it was meant that way, because these are ballpark estimates  for a complex technical stackup of losses.
So just adding them for a ballpark result is fine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Psi on June 21, 2014, 09:37:08 am
Being dark in color the road surface gets damn hot in midday sun.
It's not uncommon to be able to cook an egg on the road.
We're talking serious, burn your skin, heat in summer.

Solar panel efficiency would greatly suffer from that and lifespan would be greatly reduced as well.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Artlav on June 21, 2014, 10:15:07 am
I missed that part about heating the roads.
Have they thought that the sun is heating the roads already, at something close to 100% efficiency?
If that is not enough to melt the snow, how would 18% of that be enough?
Isn't that bloody obvious to anyone?

Well, at least it's not Radioactive Freaking Roadways, like they proposed in the 50s - mixing some radium into the pavement to keep it continuously hot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Psi on June 21, 2014, 10:18:36 am
Well, at least it's not Radioactive Freaking Roadways, like they proposed in the 50s - mixing some radium into the pavement to keep it continuously hot.

heh, using radioactive glow-in-the-dark paint in the roads to generate lane markings at night would probably work quite well from a technical standpoint.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 21, 2014, 10:51:41 am
Well, that all explains the delusion part and lack of ability to accept and reason facts and evidence.

I thought that was the enviro-wackos in general as evidenced by all the predictions that keep failing to come true.

:)




Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hans on June 21, 2014, 11:17:46 am
I dont see how these glass tiles would stand up to real traffic use, The tractor show on them could have 20 tons and not broken a tile as Tyre pressure is relatively low but the impact loading of a 40 ton truck wheel bouncing up and down is something else and there will also be other impact loads such as that shovel show in the photo dropping, they will just break up in use no need to worry about electrical loses etc they will never get past highways surface testing.

Tractors work in muddy terrains an average luxury car will drown in. Even tractors drown. In that case, you see those caterpillar tractors with even less pressure/m^2 on the ground.
No wonder they picked a tractor; it's actually a better bet to demonstrate than a car. But it looks so bulky , then those tiles must be super strong! :palm:

I would be impressed if they would allow a performance car do some burnouts on their solar road, or drive a 50 ton lorry over it. If it stands that, it's up for the job.

Also, how would glass, rain & freezing temperatures be for cyclists? Wouldn't that get even worse even quicker than normal tarmac? No rain can be absorbed by the road itself, so even with the lightest of rain clouds means you're cycling on ice.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 21, 2014, 11:38:01 am
Falling over on that from bike would be similar to sliding on your butt on the worlds biggest meat grinder.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on June 21, 2014, 03:21:30 pm
The Solar Roadways clan actually live just up the road from me.  I saw this happy horse manure back 2010 when they were pitching this scheme to the local IEEE group.  It's one of the reasons I've seen fit to not renew membership in IEEE.  They really lost credibility with me on this one.

So what was the reaction from the IEEE members pitched at?

I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises.  Solar Roadways is but one of them.

To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics.  When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths. 

We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 21, 2014, 07:03:49 pm
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises.  Solar Roadways is but one of them.

To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics.  When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths. 

We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)

Sounds like a lot of idiot money flowing free there. Do you have to believe in Jesus FRICKIN' Christ to be part of this club?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: edy on June 21, 2014, 07:07:05 pm
I agree with you Dave, it is mostly cow excrement but because the concept is neat and great to sell... they have amassed a huge amount of funding!! $2 million and growing! As Dave would say... "You got to be $#!&ing me".

You will notice that most people CONTRIBUTING on IndieGogo are getting "pendants" and "stickers" and really no product at all, nor will they ever see or directly benefit from such a solar roadway. Why the heck are they giving their money away???? They are primarily funding this project out of PASSION alone, and BELIEF in supporting this idea. This is in HUGE contrast to other crowd-funders where people are typically paying for the product and the inventor/seller is usually just barely making any profit at all, simply to get their product out there before they hit the large retail phase.

So the moral of the story is, come up with some B.S. idea that sounds good, pulls at your heart-strings and offer your backers stickers and mugs. For example, crowd-fund "research" on further refining a bark/meow translation box for your puppies or kittens or something else really cute, and give people mugs and stickers in return. Then maybe in 20 years as you continue to do "research" to make such a device, people will forget and have their mugs and stickers to remember only. Meanwhile you've walked away with tons of $$$ and your backers got what they were promised (mugs and stickers) so technically you have fulfilled your obligations and backers can't complain.

This solar roadway is the same thing, only worse. You have just sucked $2 million dollars into privately funding somebody's research into technology that is grossly inefficient. You want a "warning system", just crowd-fund an APP DEVELOPER to create a SmartPhone app that taps into a nation-wide system to warn people of traffic issues or collisions. Doesn't Google already have that? Why put lights into the roadway? The tiles will also settle and shift, you need a base-layer and that is still costly and subject to damage, causing tiles to become uneven, breaking connections between them. There are so many issues.

I suggest the solar roadways money goes to install a solar farm out in California to feed energy into the grid, and to plant 10,000 trees around it, and tell backers that their investment has gone into greening the environment and reducing "X" amount of carbon being released into the atmosphere, and call it QUITS. Everyone will feel better and the result will be immediate and beneficial!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Wim_L on June 21, 2014, 07:17:08 pm
can't you angle the LEDs towards oncoming traffic to increase their efficiency?

Yup, they can be angled.  Lights embedded in " roadways" are already common.  Go to any major jet airport at night, and you'll see embedded guide lights in taxiways.  And they are angled.  For two-way traffic, they have to be in sets that face opposite directions.

Dave is right though.  Project as a whole stinks.

Mike in California

The problem with this is, you need to interrupt the surface to do this: you need to have a piece of glass that's close to perpendicular to the viewing direction to get good efficiency.

At shallow angles, glass is very reflective, even if you had a LED inside flat glass tiles with the LED pointed at incoming drivers, most of the light would be reflected back into the tile. Making recessed structures in the tiles, as in those markers, would make this kind of thing possible, but the little pits in the surface would likely get full of dirt. Elevated light guides would also work, but that might get uncomfortable at high speeds. But if you're trying to keep the tiles completely flat, the output coupling efficiency at shallow angles isn't going to be good.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 21, 2014, 07:32:16 pm
Every LED and built in marker also takes surface away from having solar cell to absorb light. Worsens conversion even more for the panels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Rufus on June 21, 2014, 07:42:51 pm
Making recessed structures in the tiles, as in those markers, would make this kind of thing possible, but the little pits in the surface would likely get full of dirt.

Horizontal reflectors get dirty and need (self) cleaning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_eye_%28road%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_eye_%28road%29)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 21, 2014, 08:54:57 pm
33$/m^2/year  so they are actually claiming maximum of 30 years for these, that comes to around 990$/m^2/lifetime how much solar energy they have produced. If they are going to get roads that pay for itself during the lifetime....  :palm:

real quotes from their site:
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqLongetivity
How long will these Solar Road Panels last?

We're designing our panels to last a minimum of 20 years. Solar cells are the limiting factor: they can continue to work up to 30 years but they're at the end of their life cycle by then.
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faq60trillion
Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second.

They should make 1 m^2 panels that lasts 300 years. Would almost break even on that $10K price point?

I FINALLY CRACKED THE SOLAR ROADWAYS CODE!!!

I just found their rough estimate on the 15 million views pitch video:

(http://i.imgur.com/T5Iy2vc.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/OrUZRbJ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/OrUZRbJ.jpg) Original screencap from their video @ 0:55 https://youtu.be/qlTA3rnpgzU?t=55s (https://youtu.be/qlTA3rnpgzU?t=55s)


Since they are already using pseudoscience, I put my sherlock hat on and started looking for their calculations! Can clearly see X-axis with incandescent bulb symbol for time in years. And Y-axis has dollar sign for profit times 10. Since 300 years closely matches that $10K and years. Green line is for their solar road panels and Red line is for normal asphalt based blacktop. I also marked some important milestones over the years. You can clearly see the thickness of lines represents the spread of these estimations.


Next frames has DIRECT reference to another crowdscamming success http://i.imgur.com/mYBV2VC.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/mYBV2VC.jpg) SOAP ROUTER those lightning bolts are like radio waves?


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: delmadord on June 21, 2014, 10:18:56 pm
I wonder how many people would be putting here HOW COULD IT WORK comments here, if Dave did that instead of what he did. I am not saying that Dave did something wrong, or that I deliberately believe that the solar roads will work like a charm. Haters gonna hate, but how many of you haters have an ongoing project known to public for 4+ years (I do not really know how long they have been working on it, I am assuming that it is at least 4 years old project, because associated TED talk was in 2010) ? Yeah I know, If it won't work, and it most probably won't, the taxpayers and the funders will lose their money, with no visible result. But success is mostly a result of a lot of failures in a row. What if the authors of this project won't stop here, and move on? Or someone else will learn from it? It could lead on some nice technology in the future, leveraging the experience gained here. What I really admire is they are actually doing something, even though they are doing some shit like deleting comments and hiding the data and so.

Please excuse me, If my comment is completely wrong, I did not read the entire discussion, because I got disgusted by some of the really bizzare and negative comments about the project. Once again, I am not saying they are perfect, I just like they actually do something.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 21, 2014, 10:25:21 pm
Doing something is fine, as long as it is on you own dime, or with willing investors.

Pimping blatant BS for government grants is fraud.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 10:26:14 pm
It seems that some moron is flagging hundreds of comments on this video as SPAM, but it seems only ones that are against solar roadways.
Seems like we have a rabid fanboy
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 10:31:39 pm
Please excuse me, If my comment is completely wrong, I did not read the entire discussion, because I got disgusted by some of the really bizzare and negative comments about the project. Once again, I am not saying they are perfect, I just like they actually do something.

Sure, one person doing something is worth a million who just bitch about it.
But if facts are facts, then, well, facts are facts.
Having worked on something for 5 years on taxpayer dime and not have any real data to show for it, except for a bunch of outrageous and clearly ridiculous claims and an admittedly fantastic prototype that you claim is working and proven, does not earn you any respect. Then when take 2.2 million more of public money on what are demonstrably false claims, and you delete comments and refuse to substantiate your claims with data, you just dig your hole deeper. This project deserves every bit of criticism it gets.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 21, 2014, 10:34:03 pm
Does youtube have a views/day sort function?

This one seems to be getting rather popular.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2014, 10:39:30 pm
Does youtube have a views/day sort function?
This one seems to be getting rather popular.

Yes, but the data lags a few days, so don't have much yet.
This is my most shared video ever  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on June 21, 2014, 11:59:09 pm
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises.  Solar Roadways is but one of them.

To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics.  When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths. 

We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)

Sounds like a lot of idiot money flowing free there. Do you have to believe in Jesus FRICKIN' Christ to be part of this club?

No.  You have to stand on the sidewalk with a bullhorn shouting that everyone is going to hell.  Just watched a little girl, maybe ten years old doing this last night outside the stadium during a football game.  It happens every day here. 

And yes, there is a ton of money to be had here if one drops the J-bomb frequently enough.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 22, 2014, 12:11:45 am
I wish I knew. It looked so implausible that I didn't even bother to go. This area is really fertile ground for these "faith-based" enterprises.  Solar Roadways is but one of them.

To me, it really shows the need for 100-level chemistry and physics.  When I was in college, one of my profs went on the local news to explain why a local inventor's plan of putting car crash barriers on the front of train locomotives would not prevent RR crossing deaths. 

We've got bad science-based business by the bushel up here. :)

Sounds like a lot of idiot money flowing free there. Do you have to believe in Jesus FRICKIN' Christ to be part of this club?

No.  You have to stand on the sidewalk with a bullhorn shouting that everyone is going to hell.  Just watched a little girl, maybe ten years old doing this last night outside the stadium during a football game.  It happens every day here. 

And yes, there is a ton of money to be had here if one drops the J-bomb frequently enough.

Charlatans abound across the spectrum of humanity. Tying it to any particular flavor dilutes the discussion.

JMO, but sticking to technical aspects reduces bias and promotes clarity. YMMV
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: edy on June 22, 2014, 01:47:22 am
Someone mentioned that because Dave had negative views that people on the forum who are also negative are just following his lead... and people would have been positive if Dave was positive.

I think we need to give more credit to Dave's viewers and also the healthy and open discussions we have here. Dave happened to call it as it is... And I never even heard of this project until Dave did his video. If I had seen this Solar Roadway idea before I would have come to the same conclusion.

Put panels in areas that can get optimal light, in large arrays that are optimized and maintained at reasonable cost. Find a way to store excess energy efficiently for nightly usage. A road made up of panels with suboptimal light capture, subject to wear and tear, huge maintenance issues and even bigger costs sounds like the dumbest idea ever.

Why not work on altering traffic and congestion which causes needless waste and emissions. Why not offer bigger incentives to go hybrid, or all electric, or convert to LED lighting. There are so many ways that can make a bigger difference with existing proven methods that could use the investment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Ross_ValuSoft on June 22, 2014, 02:06:23 am
... sounds like the dumbest idea ever.
Which brings into sharp focus the "crap filled" video endorsement by Senator Crapo.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 22, 2014, 03:06:48 am
It seems that some moron is flagging hundreds of comments on this video as SPAM, but it seems only ones that are against solar roadways.
Seems like we have a rabid fanboy
If one (or just a few) people set to targeting a video's comments as SPAM, what of it? Do the comments get automatically removed?
Quote
EEVblog1 hour ago (edited)
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: I seems apparent that some moron is flagging a huge proportion of comments going against the solar roadway as SPAM. Therefore, don't fret if your comment doesn't show up, I'll unmark it as spam as soon as possible.?
Dave has to manually clear it. Maybe they are doing this to make Dave's video less popular? Since youtube rates videos how many comments they get in the beginning and views and all that stuff. Even one way to attack someone might satisfy them.

Youtube should limit how much someone can flag comments since it's clearly being misused, maybe let Dave ban someone from flagging the comments? If they can't disclose that who flags the comments, then just anonymize them with idiot1, idiot2, idiot3 or something.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 22, 2014, 03:24:30 am
pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)

@MythBusters
Why didn't anyone think of this before? Solar-powered roadways that light themselves ? http://dsc.tv/x0UIW (http://dsc.tv/x0UIW)  pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)



 :palm: :palm:
Dave please, another video quickly, otherwise this will be written off in the history books (like Thunderf00t said) saying "no one had a clue because they were so stupid".
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 22, 2014, 03:31:13 am
pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)

@MythBusters
Why didn't anyone think of this before? Solar-powered roadways that light themselves ? http://dsc.tv/x0UIW (http://dsc.tv/x0UIW)  pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU (http://pic.twitter.com/HJUHRwrsLU)



 :palm: :palm:
Dave please, another video quickly, otherwise this will be written off in the history books (like Thunderf00t said) saying "no one had a clue because they were so stupid".

I think it can all be summed up with this Simpsons quote.

thermodynamics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxZm8WjlI8#)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2014, 04:21:26 am
If one (or just a few) people set to targeting a video's comments as SPAM, what of it? Do the comments get automatically removed?

No. I have the option to manually approve or delete each comment.
Haven't found one single real spam comment yet, rare as hens teeth on my channel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: VK3DRB on June 22, 2014, 04:21:58 am
There is an old saying: A fool and his money are soon parted. The world is full of fools.

I learnt years ago never invest in something you know nothing about. The investors in these road tiles will lose their money. A masters degree or a PhD does disqualify you from being a fundamental idiot.

There is a story about a roofing tiler who invented a revolutionary engine - the split cycle engine. Sir Jack Brabham even endorsed it. To cut a long story short, it went nowhere and investors lost virtually everything. The roofing tiler walked off with many millions of dollars in his pocket.

Peter Brock made a fool of himself with his "Energy Polarizer"containing crystals and magnets in an epoxy resin that, it was claimed, improved the performance and handling of vehicles through "aligning the molecules". A load of :bullshit:.

The religious Y2K spruikers gave the computing industry a bad name. Conmen who had few abilities other than spreading fear over Y2K and making money out of it.

Dave's video reminds us that if it is too good to be true, it probably is. And do your homework always.

Not to want to divert this thread off topic but the Y2K issue may have been inflated by mass media but there still were many systems that would have produced errors had there not been a MASSIVE remedial effort to update them. A great deal of money time and effort went into replacing and testing to ensure it was all a complete fizzer on the day.

My intent is not to revisit Y2K since it is historic now, rather that if you are going to argue against others beliefs in something then you ought to not include your own biases as well. Whether or not Y2K spruikers and conmen did or did not give the IT industry a bad name and rake in money is an opinion as much based on your particular beliefs.

There were systems that were not Y2K compliant, agreed, and they were fixed. Here is one hard example of a dodgy Y2K spruiker. I knew a Y2K guru who was a prophet of doom, saying up until Dec 31 1999 that GPS satellites will be wiped out and worlds IT infrastructure will cave in soon after Jan 1 2000. It didn't. He then revised his estimate by saying the world will crumble with the next leap year. It didn't. He had trouble getting a job after that malarkey. How many IT people would dare have "Y2K consultant" on their resume? 

Same with the religion called 6 Sigma. A load of :bullshit: that made some consultants a lot of money. In general, people want low price over everything. Forget 6 sigma. IBM execs were spruiking 6 sigma like it was the holy grail back in the 90's. They were too embarrassed, proud and protective of their own interests to admit they had got it wrong. They did not have the guts to admit to the employees they had stuffed up; and the low level converts were left holding the baby not knowing what to do with it.

Never believe an expert knows everything. There are a lot of "experts" in the financial sector was are nothing more than semiskilled :bullshit: artists, ripping gullible people of their hard earned savings.

Sometimes electronics engineers and technicians get it wrong. The bad ones are pig headed know-it-alls who are vexations to any workplace. The good ones are those who admit their mistakes and listen to others including young new hires.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2014, 04:26:19 am
Someone mentioned that because Dave had negative views that people on the forum who are also negative are just following his lead... and people would have been positive if Dave was positive.
I think we need to give more credit to Dave's viewers and also the healthy and open discussions we have here.

The majority of my audience are engineering professionals, it's simply impossible for me to put anything technical over my audience, I get called out literally within minutes of upload. I get pulled up on the most obscure things on almost every video.
I was actually afraid I had completely goofed the calculations, and was hesitant to release such a video knowing that I'd get called out on any errors.
Luckily no show-stoppers have been reported. Lots of minor quibbles on some of my calcs, but nothing that changes the basic result in any way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2014, 04:31:27 am
This is from their FAQ page:
Quote
Currently, the full size hexagons are 36-watt solar panels, with 69-percent surface coverage by solar cells. This will become 52-watts when we cover the whole surface when we go into production. When we add piezoelectric, they'll be capable of producing even more power. Also, as the efficiency of solar cells increase, more power will be converted.

WTF?  :o
They are saying they can 100% cover the tiles with solar cells!
Physically impossible!
They must know this, and that any such calculations resulting from such assumptions will not be valid.
I think I'm going to have to elevate my status of them to flat out charlatans.
If he seriously think this then he should get back the money for his masters EE degree.  :palm:

And piezoelectric!?
They are jumping on the low energy harvesting bandwagon now!

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: peter.mitchell on June 22, 2014, 05:00:30 am
If he seriously think this then he should get back the money for his masters EE degree.  :palm:

Was probably only $450.
The Chasers war on Everything - Internet Degrees (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJq8rqr4IcQ#)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DJ on June 22, 2014, 05:05:59 am
(obscure dr who reference removed)

Back on track, I note that the University of Dayton offers online masters degrees. Not that online programs are intrinsically bad, but may explain a few things...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: station240 on June 22, 2014, 05:32:32 am
Any rough numbers for the price of the glass (per square meter) they would need?

I've done some basic research on this, and it seems that $10/sqm is probably in the ballpark for suitable 16mm stuff in volume.
But they need the bumps and the roughening etc.

Was watching a documentary on the replacement World Trade centre tower, and the original plan call for prismatic glass for the bottom 3 floors. Which was made by machining bomb proof glass with custom made machines, at great cost despite the work being done in china. It was a total failure as the glass surface broke up into thousands of glass splinters when subjected the basic impact tests. So the idea of making special glass to better trap the light is a non starter too.

So having patterns in the glass to prove better traction is actually going to weaken the glass to boot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: G7PSK on June 22, 2014, 08:18:14 am
There is one feature of the tiles and roadways that is not compatible. Flatness. The small area of concrete in their demo is easy to  trowel dead flat but long roads will be wavy in nature and even if troweled dead flat at the start will move with natural earth movements on a dead flat surface glass 2mm thick would support a tractor standing on it but as soon as the substrate is no longer flat there will be movement and cracking even if the glass is 12mm thick.
This idea of solar power from roads is not new by any means and I first read about the idea in the late 90's in I think Time magazine.
The idea was for city roads not rural roads, the problem here is of course most of the traffic will cover the road surface and shading from buildings, as soon as you go to rural roads the first two largely fade from the picture but then you get the problem of faster traffic with the increased impact loads the arise from speed, You only have to look along fast traffic lanes to see how what starts as a nice new flat surface rapidly become corrugated in nature whether made from concrete or tarmac.
Now if you put a roof over the rural roads with solar panels on them, but it would be a lot cheaper top just use a bit of land elsewhere, plenty of brown field sites in most country's.   
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 22, 2014, 08:39:58 am
Railways would benefit the most from a solar roof, as they already have the overhead support structures in place, along with a heavy power cable running along so all you need to add is the one conductor to an inverter unit every half kilometer or so. Will be easy to work as you can easily use existing rolling stock to add the required formworks to erect the support additions needed, and it will be no issue with land use as it is in an existing reserve, with the data comms cabling already being laid for control. Plus you have the existing power distribution infrastructure capable of handling the power already installed and paid for. Not a worry if it is taking power from the grid or feeding back in, the current is still the same, plus a train running along a section is going to be mostly solar powered during the day, so good transport efficiency. Panels just have to be high enough so that you can run a diesel loco under without the exhaust affecting them, and you will anyway need to clean them every so often, so can do this along with the routine track maintenance and checks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 22, 2014, 09:16:12 am
@MythBusters
Why didn't anyone think of this before? Solar-powered roadways that light themselves ?
Myth Busters jumped the shark a long time ago. These days they are just a TV show for adolescent youth who like to watch big explosions, big car crashes and excessive use of firearms.

Railways would benefit the most from a solar roof,
Since you can not properly guard long railroad tracks things will be stolen and vandalized in no time.

Which, if I think about it, will also happen to scammer's solar roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Kempy on June 22, 2014, 10:17:01 am
Dave has to manually clear it. Maybe they are doing this to make Dave's video less popular? Since youtube rates videos how many comments they get in the beginning and views and all that stuff. Even one way to attack someone might satisfy them.

It does not seem to be working - search YouTube for "solar roadways" and Dave's video comes out at number 3  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on June 22, 2014, 10:23:59 am

Since you can not properly guard long railroad tracks things will be stolen and vandalized in no time.

Which, if I think about it, will also happen to scammer's solar roadways.
Another interesting scenario will be hacking into the LED lighting network inside the tiles and making it into a giant LED display.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on June 22, 2014, 10:31:17 am
My browser has the WOT (web-of-trust) plugin and if I google for 'solar roadways', the project website is reported as 'unsatisfactory' in trustworthiness, and their twitter account is downright marked 'scam' and even 'unsafe for children'.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on June 22, 2014, 10:43:51 am
Science.  Or lack of science in schools.  That's what we are really talking about here.  Aren't we?  That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.

This is what I find most depressing about the project. It's not that it's impractical and doomed to fail, it's that taxpayers' real, hard-earned cash, which could have been used to make the world a better place in some way, was allowed to be spent on it.

That's a colossal red flag IMHO. It absolutely screams out that nobody in government, who has the authority to decide where and how money is spent, has enough of a clue to spot BS even when it's so obvious.

It should be a warning to us all. The people whom we entrust with our money are not the best and brightest, they're obviously clueless.

Glad at least one person got it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2014, 10:53:34 am
It does not seem to be working - search YouTube for "solar roadways" and Dave's video comes out at number 3  :-+

Yep, #3 at present, although probably because it's new and trending. Will be interesting to see where it settles down.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2014, 11:51:06 am
A representative cross section of the society is elected (yeah right!) to run things according to how people want.
I wish it were true.

It's impossible I suspect, due to the fact that any politician, no matter how honest and well intentioned, simply cannot get feedback from all of their constituents on every issue.
And realistically they get elected on just a couple of major issues, so you have no idea what their stance is on the maybe hundreds of laws voted on and passed each year. So you have to select one based on those few big issues and maybe some other traits, and hope that they do a good job overall.

If there was a way for politicans to get instant feedback from majority of constituents easily on every issue that that comes up, then that would be true democracy. Although if such a system was possible, then there would be no need to said politicians, just a bunch of civil servants to make it all happen.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 22, 2014, 01:03:37 pm
Party politicians are supposed to represent the desires and priorities of the electorate... should taxes be higher or lower, should investment go into schools, hospitals or industry, should we go to war, that sort of thing. Those are the types of question where peoples' personal opinions are important and need to be represented.

However, one of the reasons I like science so much, is that it's not subject to opinion. Science facts are science facts. They don't change to suit whatever is politically fashionable at the time, and they're absolutely the same for everyone, everywhere, all the time. Technical progress may over time open up possibilities, but it can never change fundamentals - like, for example, the amount of energy that reaches the earth from the sun.

It follows from this, that decisions about whether a science project can ever work or not, can also be made in an absolute sense, by experts. Solar roadways should never have reached the point where some elected official can decide they look cool and deserve investment, they should have been thrown out before ever getting that far - not because of anyone's personal opinions or priorities, but because in a scientific, objective, quantifiable sense, they won't work.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 22, 2014, 01:16:11 pm
Ignore if some has mentioned this already.

Gotto fix that maths Dave.
150W/m2 and
10% loss
10% loss
20% loss.

is 150 x 0.9 x 0.9 x 0.8 = 97.2 Watts/m2 not 90.

Dont worry I made a mistake today, Parking meter at $2.20 an hour.  For some reason I put in $1.00 and expected to park for close to an hour.
The parking lady corrected me with a parking fine.  :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 22, 2014, 02:36:57 pm
first off let me say i think solar roads are 100% complete and total bullshit.

however, watching daves video, when he mentioned the shallow viewing angle, i had a thought. in the other thread on this it mentions how teh glass would likely need "bumps" for traction like those annoying inserts they are putting at every sidewalk intersection now (in the us). nw, what if each of these "bumps" served as little turrets to house a set of leds peering off in 4 (or at least 2) directions.** that would/could solve the shallow angle view ability problems.

dont get me wrong, im not saying that in itself is a good idea at all, as im sure the glass turrets would wear quickly exposing/destroying the led's. HOWEVER, what this lead me to think is that maybe, just maybe,  this guy has some super duper new tech in mind that hes just not hinting to or trying to unveil yet with the demo models/videos that could actually make this feasible.

i kind of doubt it, but just in case, i think i will be watching the progress on this now. hes already got his millions of $$$$ for r&d, so the ball;s in his court.



** led traffic lights ARE also directional. and have a life expectancy of "at least" 5 years.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 22, 2014, 02:51:31 pm
I think they should spend the money planting trees instead. THAT's Solar Power!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 22, 2014, 03:17:01 pm
** led traffic lights ARE also directional. and have a life expectancy of "at least" 5 years.

You mean like this one?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: G7PSK on June 22, 2014, 04:35:02 pm
I have seen some LED road studs on the M11 they certainly show up at night but in day time they look much like any other white road stud, the led's are set at an angle so that at 50 meters or so a car driver is pretty well looking straight at them, don't know if they show up any better than the old fashioned cats eyes though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 22, 2014, 07:34:33 pm
Was watching a documentary on the replacement World Trade centre tower, and the original plan call for prismatic glass for the bottom 3 floors. Which was made by machining bomb proof glass with custom made machines, at great cost despite the work being done in china. It was a total failure as the glass surface broke up into thousands of glass splinters when subjected the basic impact tests. So the idea of making special glass to better trap the light is a non starter too.

So having patterns in the glass to prove better traction is actually going to weaken the glass to boot.
Yeah, mythbusters has done minimum of two episodes about bullet proof glass. It all started when Jamie said that this blast shield is bulletproof. What he meant that it need to be laminated with that plastic and tempered glass in several layers. It's only bulletproof/blast resistant once. If you break bulletproof/blast resistant glass you will have broken glass.

Asphalt on the other hand, as Thunderf00t clearly demonstrated while talking about the subject, is actually self healing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: open loop on June 22, 2014, 07:47:31 pm
I think we need to add number 6 to the list of issues.

Issue 6) Maintainability!
This has been touched on before with previous posts, given the skill level needed for repair and the issues with new tiles being placed next to worn tiles. The real issue with a lack of funds with the local authorities not to mention that lack of energy production when the road is "down". Imagine what the tech would say at the maintenance center "I just need to reboot the M25 in the UK (or Interstate 405 North Hills CA) as we don't have road markings!".

Besides the maintainability it's a non starter anyway up there with the bomb detectors sold by a British guy to the Iraqi Government: see the following link from the BBC for more information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22380368 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22380368)

As was pointed out by George Graves the issue is basic science education with the schools and those who vet the way public money is spent.

Ok, ok.  Yea.  You guys LOVE to argue the tech specs of anything... 

BUT....All the technical details aside....I think Dave did a great job at the math.  BUT - to the consumer, he/she will put that aside and just call you a "Hater" - it was totally unconvincing to them - so a great job for nerds!  But to the the backers - that video will fly right over their head.  Hater's gonna hate!

I hope you all take a moment and thing about what the real issue is.....Let's step back and look at the bigger picture.

Science.  Or lack of science in schools.  That's what we are really talking about here.  Aren't we?  That the average politician, average consumer, has no experience of science, or engineering.  No clue how to do basic unit conversions (I didn't see anything in Dave's math that wasn't a factor, or a unit conversion - correct me if I'm wrong - basic stuff)

It's easy for science/engineering minded people like us to look all high and mighty over our friends/co-workers on a topic like this.  (some of you seem to revel in the fact you know more than your non-science friends)  Well, shame on you I say!  Stop patting yourself on the back, and start talking about the need for science in the classroom.  You know, in a non-I-m-smarter-than-you kind of way.

/end rant.

Another issue is how the media responds when an "Expert" comes up with a crack pot idea, the media jump on it and spread it if is fact. Remember the fiasco that was created by Dr Wakefield with the MMR link to Autism, which was dis-proven and he was struck off by the GMC, see Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science" for more details. The media should have been blamed for a large part of the damage caused.

We (the professional engineers)have a reputation of being like Sheldon from "The Big Bang" Comedy series in the eyes of the media. Possibly because the people in media did non science subjects, find it difficult to understand engineering and science and try to promote a stereotype for many parts of society.

Well that's my thoughts...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 22, 2014, 08:29:00 pm
** led traffic lights ARE also directional. and have a life expectancy of "at least" 5 years.

You mean like this one?

let me add a note

all of the traffic signals i maintain, and all of them in the tri-county area at least (involved in a govt co-op to buy them) are rated for "at least 5 yrs" and are directional.

we do not use, and (through my state dot anyway) the use of those type signal lights is not recommended. you will see that with those gen-1 lights that used a face of led's. the newer gen 2 lights have an array at the back of the collector and a diffusing lens up front, so you will never notice any dead pixels in one like the image you have shown, the light will just appear dimmer and dimmer should any individual led's burn out. i cant go into any more detail on one, as ive never torn one apart yet to see EXACTLY what its made of. if theres interest, maybe i could "liberate" one and bust it open. (they are a completely sealed unit)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: xDR1TeK on June 23, 2014, 12:49:50 am
Dave face-palm is an indicative sign alone.
Solar Roadways is a major engineering fail.....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ttyler333 on June 23, 2014, 02:47:08 am
There's a video with the tractor moving on the glass.  As well based on the video i counted 50 LED's..  Definitely a waste of power/money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nitro2k01 on June 23, 2014, 04:58:31 am
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.

"Horseless FREAKING Carriages," a VERY expensive joke? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvYv62X-DD0#ws)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 23, 2014, 05:32:04 am
Better comparison would be flying cars. Everyone flies in their cars because they poured lots of money into those many years back.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 09:59:40 am
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.


the problem here is not the "impossible in the future"... the problem is their claim to make with today's technology ! and the fact they're ignoring/deleting all the relevant questions.

if someone asks for grant to do some "weird looking" research which will possibly result in some new technology in the future - that's just ok.. (if there are excess funds to support that kind of research).

but if someone claims that he developed something and he needs funding for production - and actually his "invention" can't work with current technology.. then that's a big problem !

apparently the author of the video overseen the facts around the "solar roadways" and their "inventors".
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on June 23, 2014, 10:19:08 am
Thing is, "possible with future tech" simply doesn't matter in this case, as even if some material becomes available that makes these solar roadway panels technologically feasible, they still won't be economically viable! 

This is because fundamental physics isn't going to change "in the future" and it will still be cheaper, and provide a large return on your investment, to just put normal solar panels on roofs / in fields & deserts etc!

For example, public supersonic air transport was made technologically possible in the mid 1970's (that's 40 years ago), and since then, aircraft technology has taken a quantum leap forwards, and yet, where are all the supersonic airliners today?  yup, there aren't any. This is nothing to do with the absence or presence of technology,a and everything to do with practical economics!

IN 2050, putting solar panels under roads will still be a really silly idea, when for the same financial outlay, you could put probably 10x as many panels in a field next to the road, and those panels would probably return something like 3x as much energy (because they can be heliostatic and not have to be protected from vehicle traffic).  That means you get 30x as much energy back for your cash (10x more panels, each being 3x more efficient), and chances are, they would be significantly cheaper to maintain etc (further improving your ROI)

So, if i said today, give me $100, and i'll give you $30, you would say. er, "no thanks" and if i ask the same question in 2050 (when we will all have flying cars, and robots and stuff?.  Well, you would still answer "no thanks"!

Fundamentally, this is why pure engineering in itself is no indicator of the viability of any given project. (Betamax VCR anyone?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 23, 2014, 10:28:58 am
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.


the problem here is not the "impossible in the future"... the problem is their claim to make with today's technology ! and the fact they're ignoring/deleting all the relevant questions.

if someone asks for grant to do some "weird looking" research which will possibly result in some new technology in the future - that's just ok.. (if there are excess funds to support that kind of research).

but if someone claims that he developed something and he needs funding for production - and actually his "invention" can't work with current technology.. then that's a big problem !

apparently the author of the video overseen the facts around the "solar roadways" and their "inventors".

Seems to me it's root cause is "It's to big to be a lie" kind of thing. People keep abstracting in all directions because of this.

But, I have a question. They say tempered glass is not harder than normal glass, but I've read that tempered glass is hardness of 7 - that's very hard. BUT if the glass they're supposed to be using is 5.5, then... Anyway, is there such glass (7), and would it make things better in regards to glass DUST ?

That and the solar panel's themselves seems to me like the most serious issues.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 10:33:19 am
Thing is, "possible with future tech" simply doesn't matter in this case, as even if some material becomes available that makes these solar roadway panels technologically feasible, they still won't be economically viable! 

This is because fundamental physics isn't going to change "in the future" and it will still be cheaper, and provide a large return on your investment, to just put normal solar panels on roofs / in fields & deserts etc!

For example, public supersonic air transport was made technologically possible in the mid 1970's (that's 40 years ago), and since then, aircraft technology has taken a quantum leap forwards, and yet, where are all the supersonic airliners today?  yup, there aren't any. This is nothing to do with the absence or presence of technology,a and everything to do with practical economics!

IN 2050, putting solar panels under roads will still be a really silly idea, when for the same financial outlay, you could put probably 10x as many panels in a field next to the road, and those panels would probably return something like 3x as much energy (because they can be heliostatic and not have to be protected from vehicle traffic).  That means you get 30x as much energy back for your cash (10x more panels, each being 3x more efficient), and chances are, they would be significantly cheaper to maintain etc (further improving your ROI)

So, if i said today, give me $100, and i'll give you $30, you would say. er, "no thanks" and if i ask the same question in 2050 (when we will all have flying cars, and robots and stuff?.  Well, you would still answer "no thanks"!

Fundamentally, this is why pure engineering in itself is no indicator of the viability of any given project. (Betamax VCR anyone?)

yes, fully agree.

even if someone invents solar cells with 80% conversion efficiency and invents a transparent material with properties suitable for roads (therefore making the idea economically viable), it would be more efficient to place those 80% cells to places more suitable for producing electricity. so no matter what will be invented in the future  - the road surface will be still a bad place for placing solar-cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 23, 2014, 10:46:50 am
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.

Wow, and that guys is supposed to be running a "skeptical science" channel  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 10:51:25 am

Seems to me it's root cause is "It's to big to be a lie" kind of thing. People keep abstracting in all directions because of this.

But, I have a question. They say tempered glass is not harder than normal glass, but I've read that tempered glass is hardness of 7 - that's very hard. BUT if the glass they're supposed to be using is 5.5, then... Anyway, is there such glass (7), and would it make things better in regards to glass DUST ?

That and the solar panel's themselves seems to me like the most serious issues.

the biggest problem with glass is the fact that glass cracks (hard glass) or flows ("softer" glass) under load/pressure. those tiles will not last long - making the whole thing even worse (they'll never ever bay back themselves).
ok.. tarmac/asphalt flows as well under load/pressure (bumpy roads) - but to fix that - they just scrape the top layer off - recycle it almost 100% (grind to smaller parts in spec, mix with fresh bitumen...etc...) and use it again. tarmac/asphalt is the most recycled industrial substance ever !
but how on earth would someone recycle those hexagons so efficiently ? recycling would just introduce further costs - making it even worse.

i'm very sorry for the citizens of US if their government will keep supporting those "solar" roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 23, 2014, 11:04:43 am
This is because fundamental physics isn't going to change "in the future" and it will still be cheaper, and provide a large return on your investment, to just put normal solar panels on roofs / in fields & deserts etc!

Correct.
Even if you had a solar road surface as cheap and durable as asphalt, with no extra loss, then you are still using the solar panels under quite serious non-optimum conditions. And you'll have all the current issues wiring and maintenance.
Perhaps there might be a few more niche applications than currently, but not even close to what they are claiming.
It's always going to be much more efficient and economical to use the panels as we currently do in an optimal way.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 23, 2014, 11:10:19 am
Yes, and the lack of respect for the environment. Putting heavy toll on the earth by producing masses of inefficient solar panels and then using them in an extremely inefficient way!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: con-f-use on June 23, 2014, 11:26:16 am
I can't help to wonder how they overlooked the viewing angle dependency for LEDs. Maybe they plan to mount them at an angle?  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 23, 2014, 11:45:27 am
All roads could be transformed into a single mega-giant capacitor!

The base is the earth, then a isolation layer, then a conductive asphalt layer, this would be used to store excess energy for peak usage time YEAH!

"Lighting hits road in California - zaps car going over badly isolated man hole in Miami - charred/molten remains all over 24h news networks."

Back to the drawing board...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 23, 2014, 12:03:01 pm
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.

Wow, and that guys is supposed to be running a "skeptical science" channel  :palm:

When cars first came out, there were skeptics that said you wouldn't be able to breathe if you exceeded 30mph. (50km/h)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 23, 2014, 12:14:14 pm
Hey! They're hiring!  http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml (http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 23, 2014, 12:52:40 pm
They're looking to hire every kind of engineer except electronic / electrical  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 01:00:56 pm
They're looking to hire every kind of engineer except electronic / electrical  :palm:

that guy is an EE (supposed to be)... but they should have at least consult with other engineers, before it went this far... now they'll try to hire some engineers  - the good ones will not even apply for the job and the inexperienced ones will shortly realize it's useless for roads :D

however as i mentioned, it might have other uses... for example i would kind of like a public square/plaza paved with those - good looking surface and produces some (not much) electricity, but enough to light up the square during night. and the pedestrians would not damage the surface too quickly (and cleaning the surface to keep the efficiency would be easy - public squares are being cleaned quite often anyways).

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: BMac on June 23, 2014, 01:10:43 pm
I think the University of Dayton should demand their degreen back from this guy! Even the High school he attended should demand their degree back, and his 3rd grade math teacher probably should rethink passing him.

BMac
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 23, 2014, 01:18:51 pm
They're looking to hire every kind of engineer except electronic / electrical  :palm:

First person I'd hire is someone capable of doing performance testing that they seem unwilling or unable to do...
The thing is though, now they have the money, they don't have to release any data or test results 0at all, they aren't accountable to anyone.
All they have to do is deliver on the perks, the hardest of which is the small $10K demo units to 12 backers.
And when this thing fails to get one single sale as a public road, and the money runs out, they will blame everyone but their infeasible idea.
They'll likely produce some small private test carpark somewhere, and it'll look all pretty, but will perform like crap.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 23, 2014, 04:01:25 pm
Here's some ideas of the type of weight this glass will need to sustain in the US:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-trailer_truck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-trailer_truck)
Quote from: Wikipedia
##Triples: Three 28.5 ft (8.7 m) trailers; maximum weight up to 129,000 lb (59,000 kg).
 ##Turnpike Doubles: Two 48 ft (14.6 m) trailers; maximum weight up to 147,000 lb (67,000 kg)
 ##Rocky Mountain Doubles: One 40-to-53 ft (12.2-to-16.2 m) trailer (though usually no more than 48 ft/14.6 m) and one 28.5 ft (8.7 m) trailer (known as a "pup"); maximum weight up to 129,000 lb (59,000 kg)
 ##In Canada, a Turnpike Double is two 53 ft (16.2 m) trailers, and a Rocky Mountain Double is a 50 ft (15.2 m) trailer with a 24 ft (7.3 m) "pup".



Future LCV's under consideration and study for the U.S. MAP-21 transportation bill are container doubles. These combinations are under study for potential recommendation in November 2014:
 ##40 ft (12 m) trailer Turnpike Doubles, 148,000 lb (67,000 kg) GVWR
 ##40/20-ft (12/6 m) trailer Rocky Mountain Doubles, 134,000 lb (61,000 kg) GVWR
 ##Double 20 ft (6.1 m) trailer Doubles, 120,000 lb (54,000 kg) GVWR

Regulations on LCVs vary widely from one state or province to another. None allows more than three trailers without a special permit. Reasons for limiting the legal trailer configurations include both safety concerns and the impracticality of designing and constructing roads that can accommodate the larger wheelbase of these vehicles and the larger minimum turning radii associated with them.

Most states restrict operation of larger tandem trailer setups such as triple units, "turnpike doubles" and "Rocky-Mountain doubles". In general, these configurations are restricted to turnpikes. Except for these units, tandem setups are not restricted to certain roads any more than a single setup. They are also not restricted by weather conditions or "difficulty of operation". The Canadian province of Ontario, however, does have weather-related operating restrictions for larger tandem trailer setups.

In the United States, 80,000 lb (36,000 kg) is the maximum allowable legal gross vehicle weight without a permit.

The axle-weight breakdown is:[2]
 ##20,000 lb (9,072 kg) maximum on a single axle
 ##34,000 lb (15,422 kg) maximum on the tandem axles

Then you get trucks like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/plKTTD9.jpg)

This weighs 45 Tons without any load on it and it can haul up to 75 Tons total. It probably isn't road legal but I suppose on occasion it has to cross the road or at least be towed somewhere.
I think I recall that this particular truck frame can be special ordered to support 250 Tons.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: tchicago on June 23, 2014, 04:18:32 pm
i'm very sorry for the citizens of US if their government will keep supporting those "solar" roadways.

Gov't can always hike the taxes so that 1kWH will cost like say $2. ;)
All insanely expensive ideas will start to look different.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 04:34:51 pm
i'm very sorry for the citizens of US if their government will keep supporting those "solar" roadways.

Gov't can always hike the taxes so that 1kWH will cost like say $2. ;)
All insanely expensive ideas will start to look different.

yes exactly, and actually that $2 (or more) per kWh is the reason why i'm sorry for you guys.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 04:38:27 pm

Then you get trucks like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/plKTTD9.jpg)

This weighs 45 Tons without any load on it and it can haul up to 75 Tons total. It probably isn't road legal but I suppose on occasion it has to cross the road or at least be towed somewhere.
I think I recall that this particular truck frame can be special ordered to support 250 Tons.

no worries ... 45ton empty + 75 ton load ... all that on 3 axles...  that's just 40tons per axle ! that's peanuts !  :-DD  they'll make the glass on the tiles half a meter thick and it's solved !  :-DD :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 04:46:08 pm
btw... one serious question... how is the glass tile supported ? is all pressure going to the 4 bolts ? or is the glass pressing against the solar panels and the PCBs beneath ? this might be an extremely serious issue.
if it's just the 4 points supporting the glass - then we could compare it to driving on top of a glass table with 4 legs - so it's not only about the pressure the glass tile has to withstand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 23, 2014, 05:04:39 pm
Hey! They're hiring!  http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml (http://www.solarroadways.com/jobs.shtml)
From that page we can learn where they stole that idea from!

On that page:
Quote
This pic was taken from our ski resort: Schweitzer Mountain Resort.
On the wiki page about Schweitzer Mountain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweitzer_Mountain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweitzer_Mountain)
Quote
Also in 2007, Schweitzer Mountain Land & Timber Company, the real estate arm of Schweitzer Mountain Resort, released 35 new ski-in/ski-out lots, approved for 1-4 units per lot, for sale in the Trapper's Creek-1 subdivision. By winter of 2007-08, heated roads, ... were installed.
(emphasis added).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: WattSekunde on June 23, 2014, 05:10:50 pm
No one will ever finance this solar street project in large scale. Never. I am sure!  :palm:

We have 7,35kWp (0..+3%) solar panels on our roof under best available conditions. Only one degree out of perfect south and 36 degree upwards. That's close to ideal in north west Germany and a nice self cleaning angle. There is a 200 mm gap between panels and roof that give a cooling airflow under the modules. In the first 5 Years we have earned 37MWh. That's more than we expected. Under this conditions we need little less than 20 Years to return our investment. Don't forget that this 20 years are only possible thru massive subsidies from the State and without any credit fee on our side of the investment. And don't forget this system has to work without any expensive failures our insurance or warranty don't cover.  :-DMM :phew:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: plexuss on June 23, 2014, 06:50:03 pm
I havent seen anyone talk about the proposed roads mitigation of accident damage. i am not sure how the proposed material and design will stand up to major accidents. compression and impact damage as well as heat from vehicular fires. if the material can not stand up to this then considerations need to be made for road repairs after a crash. we already experience congestions and delays as accidents are investigated and cleared off the road way, imagine if now large chunks of the road need to be replaced too! i just dont see feasibility even rom just the aspect of accidents let alone the other engineering issues. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 23, 2014, 07:28:39 pm
A parody of thunderf00t's rebuttal.

"Horseless FREAKING Carriages," a VERY expensive joke? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvYv62X-DD0#ws)


heres the thing, i know that this video is supposed to undermine thunderfoot's video, and the idea of the parody is to point out that the criticisms of solar roadways are ridiculous, BUT if you watch the video, the point he makes about how roads would have to be paved with bricks/and or cobblestones, and how horrible they are for so many reasons, are EXACTLY THE SAME problems that would apply to solar roadway panels.

oh, the irony.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JohnWard on June 23, 2014, 08:30:11 pm
btw... one serious question... how is the glass tile supported ? is all pressure going to the 4 bolts ? or is the glass pressing against the solar panels and the PCBs beneath ? this might be an extremely serious issue.
It's implied from the video showing the panels and installation concrete base that the 4 bolts are the only support.

Not entirely clear though, as although the the whole of their website is filled substantial amounts of text, it contains no real information at all.
Most of it is feeble excuses as to why they don't have any testing data or haven't done any of the things any reasonable person would have already done.

Their FAQ page is particularly revealing of their whole attitude - mostly political style non-answers, and the few bits of information in there show a total lack of understanding.

They claim that 'Most roads with high speed vehicles keep themselves pretty clean' - a quick glance at any road anywhere proves otherwise.
Road damage and repairs - 'The panel could be swapped out and reprogrammed in a few minutes' - not true, as a substantial part of road repairs is closing off the lane(s) so that it is safe to do the repairs, something which will still have to be done even if the panel replacement did take only 5 minutes.
There is a section about lightning not striking the ground or their glass panels because 'glass is an insulator', black marks from tyres is answered by scuffing a shoe on one of the panels once, and for energy storage, flywheels were mentioned.  Flywheels.

I read a whole book once in which flywheels were used as viable energy sources for motorcycles and other vehicles.  However it was a sci-fi novel and therefore as far away from reality as you can get.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 23, 2014, 08:54:52 pm
btw... one serious question... how is the glass tile supported ? is all pressure going to the 4 bolts ? or is the glass pressing against the solar panels and the PCBs beneath ? this might be an extremely serious issue.
It's implied from the video showing the panels and installation concrete base that the 4 bolts are the only support.

Not entirely clear though, as although the the whole of their website is filled substantial amounts of text, it contains no real information at all.
Most of it is feeble excuses as to why they don't have any testing data or haven't done any of the things any reasonable person would have already done.

Their FAQ page is particularly revealing of their whole attitude - mostly political style non-answers, and the few bits of information in there show a total lack of understanding.

They claim that 'Most roads with high speed vehicles keep themselves pretty clean' - a quick glance at any road anywhere proves otherwise.
Road damage and repairs - 'The panel could be swapped out and reprogrammed in a few minutes' - not true, as a substantial part of road repairs is closing off the lane(s) so that it is safe to do the repairs, something which will still have to be done even if the panel replacement did take only 5 minutes.
There is a section about lightning not striking the ground or their glass panels because 'glass is an insulator', black marks from tyres is answered by scuffing a shoe on one of the panels once, and for energy storage, flywheels were mentioned.  Flywheels.

I read a whole book once in which flywheels were used as viable energy sources for motorcycles and other vehicles.  However it was a sci-fi novel and therefore as far away from reality as you can get.

if it's the 4 bolts only then it's a complete nonsense - those tiles will crack in a instant when heavily loaded ;) (btw.. i haven't seen their video and not even planning to watch it)

regarding the flywheels.... those are great for SHORT TERM energy storage, but how on earth will they store all the energy to flywheels long-term ? (12 hours can be considered long-term - to store energy during day for use during night).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: G7PSK on June 23, 2014, 08:57:00 pm
I made the assumption that they would have to lie flat on a concrete bed, but concrete is not going to be flat for long as the soil underneath moves the concrete will ripple and crack taking the tiles with it, they could of course put an elastic layer between the supporting concrete and the tile but in itself will lead to flexing and cracking of the tile and if you look at places in the road where heavy vehicle regularly brake the surface takes up a wavy surface looking like sand where the tide has gone out concrete roads do the same but not as fast.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Zad on June 23, 2014, 10:32:47 pm
Just imagine, a kid gets hold of a $5 spring loaded centrepunch. That could be a very expensive 5 minutes...

I'm surprised they need any engineers at all, they seem to know it all!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nsayer on June 23, 2014, 10:48:59 pm
Of course, Dave did touch on this in his video, but the most obvious deal-breaker is that his numbers - dismal though they are - completely leave out the fact that these things are going to be shaded a substantial fraction of the time by big honking vehicles (no pun intended). Yes, the vehicles move, but they cast a shadow one place or another. Duh.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on June 24, 2014, 12:04:53 am
From that page we can learn where they stole that idea from!
hmm...
I thought for sure they got it from Mr J
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=98767;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on June 24, 2014, 12:41:53 am
Largest overload that was taken off here was 130 tons over......... Not 130 tons, but that over the legal max of 66 tons, wonder just how the straddle carrier and the dockside crane survived that massive overload on them from the 2 containers involved.

The most common abnormal load generally runs at around 5 tons per wheel, using up to 100 axles to spread the load. Seeing as that can flatten the wave trough out on the road when passing over it I would hate to see what happens to glass.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 24, 2014, 01:06:37 am
Another thought, studded snow tires. I don't think the glass would hold up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 24, 2014, 01:40:18 am
Another thought, studded snow tires. I don't think the glass would hold up.

who would need studded snow tires when we live in a Utopian world with magical snow melting solar roads??
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mtdoc on June 24, 2014, 03:06:14 am
Dave,

Good on you for debunking this freakin' BS.

I'm not sure if others have pointed this out but another reason why it is even worse than your analysis is the severely detrimental effects of temperature on PV output. Without airflow behind a panel, output will quickly decline as it heats up.

A couple of other points:

Optimal fixed angle for year round PV deployment is generally close to the sites latitude. So only at or near the equator would a solar roadway be at optimal angle. At northern latitudes, especially in winter, a flat panel will harvest very little.

"Feed in tariffs" in the USA vary widely from state to state and between utility districts. In many places there is none at all!


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 24, 2014, 03:32:28 am
Another thought, studded snow tires. I don't think the glass would hold up.

who would need studded snow tires when we live in a Utopian world with magical snow melting solar roads??

 :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 05:54:19 am
Although Dave criticised the Solar roads on the basis of the actual solar panel efficiency, as you would expect an EE to do. I think it is becoming increasingly evident that the concept is flawed on so many levels that the efficiency is actually one of the lesser ones.

Absolutely.
My plan when I started shooting that video was it was going to be a "Top 5" reasons the idea is BS. Hence my listing 5 major things.
Solar output was only going to one of them, and a pretty random choice to do that one first.
But it kinda morphed into a standalone video and longer than expected.

Technically, solar output is not a showstopper in terms of using it for a road, it just makes it ridiculously bad value and poor design. BUt of course, right there isn't showstopper in practical terms of it ever being viable. Not to mention (ironically) ecologically unfriendly.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 05:55:48 am
I'm not sure if others have pointed this out but another reason why it is even worse than your analysis is the severely detrimental effects of temperature on PV output. Without airflow behind a panel, output will quickly decline as it heats up.

Absolutely. I was generous by not getting into that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: steves on June 24, 2014, 06:31:13 am
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help? If not, they should do it anyway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 06:42:37 am
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help?

Sure it would help, but not even close to being enough to make it financially viable.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 24, 2014, 06:51:04 am
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help?

Sure it would help, but not even close to being enough to make it financially viable.

Unless it was really a NASCAR track and the cars where crashing all over the place driving the viewer's rating up so they will make more money out of commercials (but yeah there is the thing about high speed accidents, I guess they preached they want to save lives and if they where installed a lot of people will be alive now)

Still you can make money by making racing even more dangerous (although we all know the drivers keep pursuing safety) hmmm, maybe if they got a F1 driver to promote their roads?????  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on June 24, 2014, 11:04:50 am
Dave, looks like your video reached it's peak.  Care to share the stats on it?

I think you were a bit too late, a few weeks earlier, and you're video may have gotten much more views.  No? 

Now that it's "funded" - well, "flexible funding" - and they don't have to deliver a darn thing...All they have to do is post up once a week, and in a year or two, all will be forgotten.  2.2 million....

Stay tuned, my next kickstarter is "SOLAR FREAKING SIDEWALKS"  - heck, at least you might be able to walk on them, and minus the bubble gum, they will power a small city!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bumbi on June 24, 2014, 11:12:07 am
Guys,

I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff?  Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.

J
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on June 24, 2014, 11:32:39 am
Guys,

I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff?  Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.

J

And your credentials are????
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 24, 2014, 11:51:15 am
Guys,

I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff?  Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.

J

Engineer is supposed to engineer/design/build something what was invented before ! the scientists are supposed to invent things ! all the good engineers know the limitations of technology and are supposed to engineer/develop products accordingly.

If an engineer believes he can overcome the laws of physics (and therefore the limitations of technology) - that engineer is either undereducated or stupid. (and should return his degree immediately ;) )

so please stop posting nonsense - the solar roadway guys are claiming they're ready for production with the current technology - and that's impossible with today's technology.

no-one says in 20-30 years we couldn't have materials which would make it possible... but even then it will be economically not viable to build freaking solar roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bumbi on June 24, 2014, 11:54:06 am
George,

what do you care for my credentials? I don't think makes any difference in the light of what I said. In my country anybody can get a degree as electrical engineer who can read and write so I don't see the point in "comparing our letters". But if you really want to know I have an abandoned IT engineer course behind me. I also spent some years on a university as pianist. I hope very important and relevant piece of information will help you to understand what you didn't get for the first time in my post.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 12:09:08 pm
Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.

Ok. For starters, tell us how you will solve the problem of return on investment on solar panels in a road under the most horrible unoptimised conditions possible.
Because we have many smart engineers here, and it seems that none of us can come up with solution. I can't.
The numbers don't lie, they are an order of magnitude away from being even ballpark viable on that aspect alone.

And that's just one issue with this project, there are literally dozens of others that look to be show stoppers.
If I had an idea that could salvage this project, then I'd be shouting it to the world, because that's what engineers do.
But there isn't a clever solution to this, the entire idea is fundamentally flawed.

This isn't a lack of faith, it's a lack of confidence build very strongly on basic engineering principles.
If it's faith you want, go to church.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bumbi on June 24, 2014, 12:10:39 pm
Guys,

can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?

Rob, I'm not saying that it is possible. Maybe it's not, I can't tell from sitting in a chair (and I don't think anybody of you can either). What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial. Normally before I say that something is impossible I try first. Not once, fifty times. (How many times did you try to ride your bike before it actually happened? Once? I don't think so. And that's so easy that even a 5 years old can do that.) And then all it means that _I_ can't do it. This is how things go forward. Nobody believes in something, then on dude makes it happen. Then the rest learns. You are the rest. I expect engineers to be way more creative. This is what I'm saying. And I'm not arguing about this, I'm saying it as my opinion.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 12:16:14 pm
Dave, looks like your video reached it's peak.  Care to share the stats on it?
I think you were a bit too late, a few weeks earlier, and you're video may have gotten much more views.  No? 

Of course I should have done it earlier, but it took some working up to it. So it is what it is.
The basic stats are visible. On top of that it is my most shared video ever. Not much else to tell.
Audience retention rate is above average over the entire video.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: electromatt on June 24, 2014, 12:16:57 pm
Hi Dave, great vid as usual :)

Can you put some sense into this thread over on whirlpool https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2263747&p=9

I know you have an account :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bumbi on June 24, 2014, 12:18:47 pm
Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.

under the most horrible unoptimised conditions possible

Create less horrible conditions. If pointing the LED up is horrible because it wouldn't be visible then how about not pointing them up as a start? Done. One problem less. And here I'm not saying that I can eliminate all the problems. I'm saying that you need to try better if you want to argue the feasibility of the project.

[/quote]
the entire idea is fundamentally flawed
[/quote]

Let's just say that you don't know how to make it happen.

I think you calculated the return as $33/m2/year. in your calculations a road is 8m wide. A 150km piece of road, let's say a test road would return $40 million in a year. And let's say it's shit. The worst road ever. You can't stop on it, you can't see the LED's and all that. $40million as return in a year is surely enough to try it again. And again and again.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on June 24, 2014, 12:22:34 pm
Guys,

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before.



As an engineer who certainly doesn't like to only do what has been done before, i find some important issues with your assertions!

In the "real world" engineering is a compromise.  Today, in 2014, we have such understanding of our environment and physics, that practically, we CAN do almost anything we set our minds to.  The issue is not therefore of CAN we do something, but should we do something, and that includes many more non engineering decisions and often politics, semantics and even idealistic principals!.


An example:

  You need to buy some milk.  I suspect you either walk, ride your bike, or most probably, drive your car to the shop to buy some.  Why don't you take a helicopter to get some, it would be much quicker?  The answer (of course) is that the vast majority of people cannot afford to own a helicopter, even though "helicopter technology" is proven and now relatively mass produced.  That doesn't make "Helicopters" pointless, or make people who don't use helicopters to get their milk luddites!!



So, the principal issue with Solar roadways is simple:

"Due to the compromises necessary in the design to make these solar panels work under roads, for any given investment, it will always be better (higher ROI)  to spend that money on conventional solar systems"

This has nothing to do with the technology or physics, or engineering or whatever of the devices, but is a simple fact of the (capitalist)world we live in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: sync on June 24, 2014, 12:25:41 pm
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff?  Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
Ignoring the technical issues. Please tell us why solar roadways are a good thing comparing to the alternatives.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 24, 2014, 12:28:55 pm
Quote
I wanted to read all the previous post before saying anything but I see that swearing and speculating about who's gonna steal the money is done more often than commenting the actual issue.

All I wanted to say is that I find it rather disappointing to see engineers with zero faith and arguing endlessly against something. Especially if it's an unfair argument. This is the quality of an engineer who can only do what's been done before. Where will you hide when it will be done in 10-15 years time? Are you the ones who make up problems or the ones who teach the rest how to do stuff?  Have faith my friends, it there's a problem then solve it, figure shit out.
Well, there are limitations as to how far faith can take you against facts. Well, there should be anyway, otherwise you get religion.

If it will be done in 15 years and work as advertised (will pay for itself eventually, be economical, work properly, be driveable, clearly visible in daylight, won't double the US power consumption on heating roads, not be a maintenance nightmare...) than I'll say, sorry, you were right, congrats, I should have had faith in you! Assuming I survive the flying pigs and not end up in a frozen Hell.

Quote
What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial.
Well, they spent 800k USD without sufficiently answering lots of questions, addressing lots of issues raised, they delete comments on their youtube channel asking for clarification, reaction or criticism, leaving only praise - which is not peer review, the basis for science. Which is fishy at the best of times.

I'm sure it's quite possible to cover every road in the US with solar panels. It's just beyond impractical for a host of reasons and beyond costly. The calculations have been done, and even in the best case scenario, that involves magical solar panels without cars, consumptionless LEDs it's still not practical.

The point of this criticism isn't to lynch an inovator, it's to tell people to think critically, apply their funds better and such. If it is not an outright scam that is.

Engineering is indeed about solving problems, but it is also about feasibility analysis, realistic budget estimation as well as looking for better alternatives to both solutions and problems. As far as better usage of funds goes, well, cover the whole of Texas (except for roads) with solar panels (since you need not make them road proof, they'll cost a LOT less) and be done with it - far more efficient, more economical, maintainable etc.

Quote
I think you calculated the return as $33/m2/year. in your calculations a road is 8m wide. A 150km piece of road, let's say a test road would return $40 million in a year. And let's say it's shit. The worst road ever. You can't stop on it, you can't see the LED's and all that. $40million as return in a year is surely enough to try it again. And again and again.
40 mil USD is on an ideal road and is without:
Maintenance costs
Replacement costs
Heating costs
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 12:30:58 pm
can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?

This argument keeps coming up over and over again from the supporters of this project, and it is a complete red-herring.
This has nothing to do with any other project, and you can't and should not compare them.
This project claims a great many very specific things using existing technology, and we engineers and scientists can make calculations and do tests to verify if what they claim is actually possible.
We have done those numbers, and some tests, and it, and the results do not lie, this is complete folly. This project is simply not viable.

Note that this solar roadways mob are not doing any research, they claim to be ready to ramp up into productio, and they have essentially zero data after 5 years to back up their claims.
This stuff can be easily verified by an competent engineer with experience in the field.

Quote
Rob, I'm not saying that it is possible. Maybe it's not, I can't tell from sitting in a chair (and I don't think anybody of you can either).

Rubbish. We can do calculations and basic tests. It fails on all these.
If you can't do the calculations from your chair, then it doesn't mean others can't.
Ditto your first comment: can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that you can't verify from your chair, but others can? Do you need help?

Quote
What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial.

Yes it did.
At least Thunderf00t and myself have done basic ballpark calculations, and no one in our large (professional) audiences being able to dispute them with alternative calculations or data. Many have verified the data with their own calculations.

I openly challenge you to verify my ballpark calculations and present your results. There is more than one way to ballpark verify this stuff, so pick whatever method suits you.
Anything else is just words, just like the Solar Roadways mob who have no data either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 12:45:43 pm
Create less horrible conditions.

Sure, I can do that. Mount the solar panel under more optimal conditions. i.e. not in roads.

Quote
If pointing the LED up is horrible because it wouldn't be visible then how about not pointing them up as a start? Done. One problem less.

The LED problem is a complete red herring! It doesn't matter
I could engineer a way to make the LEDs work (at extra cost), but that is beside the point.
This is a SOLAR ROADWAY. If it's horribly inefficient at generating solar power, what's the point?

Quote
Let's just say that you don't know how to make it happen.

I know how to make it happen, mount the solar panels anywhere else but the road!
But that's not the answer the solar roadways supporters want to hear, because they are blinded by the love of solar roadways   :palm:

Quote
I think you calculated the return as $33/m2/year. in your calculations a road is 8m wide. A 150km piece of road, let's say a test road would return $40 million in a year. And let's say it's shit. The worst road ever. You can't stop on it, you can't see the LED's and all that. $40million as return in a year is surely enough to try it again. And again and again.

 :palm:

Lets assume 1sqm uses 4 tiles, and each tile costs $500 (inc construction, install, cabling, micro inverters, etc etc - very generous!, I have heard that their figure is about $2K? per tile alone).
So that is $2K/sqm,
So that test road you propose will cost you a ballpark figure of 2.4 BILLION DOLLARS!
 :palm:
If oyu think that number is bullshit, then compare with the cost to build a new existing road from scratch - $1M/km ($150M for 150km).
So it's very easy to see that a slar road with all it's massive concrete base, channeling, cabling, connectors, inverters, solar tiles, glass etc, could EAISLY cost 10 times that.

Let's be massively generous and assume that it will actually generate $33/sqm per year. To pay itself back in a year, each 0.25sqm tile would have to cost $33/4 = $8.25 per title  :-DD

It you are going to make examples like this with some numbers, do make sure your numbers make sense first, otherwise you might look a bit foolish.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 12:54:34 pm
Well, they spent 800k USD without sufficiently answering lots of questions, addressing lots of issues raised, they delete comments on their youtube channel asking for clarification, reaction or criticism, leaving only praise - which is not peer review, the basis for science. Which is fishy at the best of times.

And that alone right there is why everyone with any clue at all should start to smell BS.
5 years and almost a million dollars, and a nice big (admittedly impressive) test setup, and they can't produce any data on the two key factors a SOLAR ROADWAY must have.
i.e. how much power it generates (vs what cost), and how it works as a real road surface. And how much power is generates when used as a real road surface.

Remember, they claim to be ready to ramp up into production, their technology "works"!.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: andtfoot on June 24, 2014, 12:59:49 pm
under the most horrible unoptimised conditions possible

Create less horrible conditions. If pointing the LED up is horrible because it wouldn't be visible then how about not pointing them up as a start? Done. One problem less.

A bit of handwaving later, and one of the seemingly simple issues is fixed? I don't think it's that easy...

Say you angle them enough to make a difference according to the light spread of the LED. Then you get internal reflection, more loss through the glass, etc. You then also have to increase the number of LEDs to be able to see it from other directions; using even more power.
Ok, so raise them above the surface like cat's eyes? One of the main selling points is then compromised: modularity. You can't then use them for the entire road, so you can't do the fancy 'smart' road markings effectively.
You could brute force it with stupid-bright LEDs in vast quantities, but then it's not exactly efficient (both in cost and energy gained/used).

So how exactly would this singular minor issue actually be fixed? (Let alone the rest of it)

 
The LED problem is a complete red herring! It doesn't matter
I could engineer a way to make the LEDs work (at extra cost), but that is beside the point.
Yeah, there are definitely a lot more important issues, but I'm curious how even the simpler ones would be fixed.  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: madires on June 24, 2014, 01:17:16 pm
Rob, I'm not saying that it is possible. Maybe it's not, I can't tell from sitting in a chair (and I don't think anybody of you can either). What I'm saying it that I consider it primitive to make up stuff as part of an argument against something just because you don't like the idea or you THINK it's not doable. Even worse to blow somebody else's trumpet without doing your OWN calculations and experiments. This thing didn't get a fair trial. Normally before I say that something is impossible I try first. Not once, fifty times. (How many times did you try to ride your bike before it actually happened? Once? I don't think so. And that's so easy that even a 5 years old can do that.) And then all it means that _I_ can't do it. This is how things go forward. Nobody believes in something, then on dude makes it happen. Then the rest learns. You are the rest. I expect engineers to be way more creative. This is what I'm saying. And I'm not arguing about this, I'm saying it as my opinion.

The Solar Roadways project has so many show stoppers that it is determined to fail. It's not about faith or creativity, it's just plain simple physics. Do you know that roads aren't rock solid surfaces? They have to be flexible to cope with heat and coldness, also with changes of the road's foundation. What do you think will happen with glass tiles bolted down to concrete if the temperature changes? The whole project isn't just braindead, it's dangerous. But I know that the human stupidity is infinite.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bumbi on June 24, 2014, 01:24:13 pm
Max: fair point, excellent argument. This is exactly my point, that the video in question is NOT about that but about made up problems like the orientation of the LED, and this and that. If we don't want to do that because we rather spend the money on other things then fine.

Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.

Daqq: the way the solar roadway dudes conduct their business is not the subject of the video. If they delete certain comments then they are bad guys and it's a completely different question. Don't let it influence the argument about the feasibility of the project. Your next sentence doesn't make sense. The $40 million profit is based on David's pessimistic calculations. Nobody is talking about consumption less LED's or magic solar panels or invisible cars.

I understand the heating cost problem. In the video David is not talking about the heating cost at all. I understand that it's a lot of energy to heat something. About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.

David: the other seemingly unbelievable projects are not related to the roadway project but to the attitude of your video and the general scepticism. if the solar roadway dudes (SRD) don't do research or delete comments or evil, then make a video about that.

Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.

You can challenge me all you want. I accept your calculations, they show that there's quite a lot of energy left even after the LED trick, + there's a huge return on that AND it surly will trigger unprecedented improvement of the solar energy technology.

I don't understand why you all worry about how much money they got. What dies it matter rom engineering point of view?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 24, 2014, 01:31:25 pm
Many people seem to raise the same argument against people "who say they know better", is why don't you actually try to help instead of being negative and naysayer. That is why don't they try to solve some of these problems. Let's remove all the stupid parts like tempered glass, solar panels, concrete base, cable corridor. No need to have hexagons now. Heated roads are good idea where there is lot of excess energy to heat the roads, even then same energy could probably used more wisely. So no need for heated roads everywhere. These bricks don't enable us to do much, just that their price and design means that we have to do these additional things to justify the costs. Same advantages could be have for so much cheaper.

So now we have some leds for the night and microprocessors (or microcontrollers) and maybe some sensors? I bet it would be significantly cheaper to just some sort of basic sensor system to get all the advantages they are talking about. We don't just need to have solar panels covered roads to enable these systems, that brings costs down significantly and makes something like smart roads actually more viable and environmentally green. We need to use these peoples own arguments against them. They say putting solar panels in roads will save the planet? Bullshit, they are wasting the solar panels so that they have no way to pay themselves back the solar panels way. They are basing their own guesstimates on wild assumptions of how many people this will save, sure it might save some people, but safer and better cars could save even more people. Speed is the most important factor in accidents. What if we just added more dynamic speed limits based on the weather.

Some of the sensors are already in cars. Some cars have thermal for night vision, to warn about animals. Some cars already call automatically to emergency people if the car has crashed, some cars even have crash prevention systems that actually work (Volvo). If there was more focus on trying to save lives and people were willing to pay, cars would be the place to put the money.

I didn't actually think how effective cheap and smart a painted white line was until Thunderf00t pointed it out. Road is black, those lines are white and hey we have contrast. Those painted white lines can also be made retroreflective, I've seen when the lines are drying they throw small glass spheres in them. Yes, little tiny glass balls that look more like powder, these work as retroreflectors and return the light coming from car headlights.

Negativity breeds more negativity, but does being realistic breed more realists?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: digsys on June 24, 2014, 01:42:35 pm
Holy snapping duck shlt ! This thing is STILL going .. It's even worse than arguing with religious freaks.
Sad part is - these dipshlts will get their $, fanfare of support during roll-out (?), then never heard of again after problems start.
No new lessons, no new useful technology - just a waste - and regular EEs will cop the fallout. It's bad enough science ministers
are just about extinct from governments (who don't like facts getting in the way). All for a few green hardons. We're doomed :-)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 24, 2014, 01:45:11 pm
If they only put the panels on bends that face into the sun and inclined them NASCAR style, would that help? If not, they should do it anyway.

(http://i.imgur.com/MBVMsIJ.jpg)
https://youtu.be/RMhorNKMXVQ?t=2m31s (https://youtu.be/RMhorNKMXVQ?t=2m31s) @ 2m31s

Yes that is on top of the same building they have put their solar roadway next to!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: sync on June 24, 2014, 01:48:43 pm
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 01:50:04 pm
Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.

 :palm:
Wow, I'm sorry, but you are nothing short of completely ignorant about the cost of manufacturing something this.
It is IMPOSSIBLE (highlighted special for you) for this project to be financially viable (let alone all the technical issues)

Even with a 20 year lifetime, that's only $660/sqm income over 20 years AT BEST, with ZERO maintenance costs.
If you think you can build and maintain these things for anything close to $660/sqm ($165/ tile approx) over 20 years, then you are completely clueless.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 24, 2014, 01:53:20 pm
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.

Assumes pure profit from solar production? Remember Dave didn't include ANY maintenance costs. What people don't realize is that they aren't going to have roads that don't magically need maintenance, just because they heat themselves and can be replaces easily.

To be fair, I don't think half of the people who watched the video know what a Wh (Watt hour) is. Maybe we need simple video explaining Wh to people with 100W lightbulb?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 24, 2014, 01:55:00 pm
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.

He's technically right based on my generous best case number of $33/sqm.
8m x 150,000m x $33/sqm/year = $40M / year potential income.
Of course he forgot to include the cost of system which I ballpark estimate at $2.2BN
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on June 24, 2014, 02:15:14 pm
Please proof the $40 million profit. I want to see the calculation.

He's technically right based on my generous best case number of $33/sqm.
8m x 150,000m x $33/sqm/year = $40M / year potential income.
Of course he forgot to include the cost of system which I ballpark estimate at $2.2BN

To help put that into perspective:

Take the $2.2 Billion build cost, whack it in the bank at 2.5% interest, pocket $1.4 Billion after 20 years, for an average return of 70 million per year.

Do nothing, earn nearly double on your money that only_in_fanstay_land_solar_roadways  can deliver.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 24, 2014, 02:16:27 pm
Quote
Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.
They don't show a profit. They show that you'll get energy worth 33 USD/m^2 under absolutely ideal conditions. Substract the costs of installation, maintenance, replacement...

Quote
You can challenge me all you want. I accept your calculations, they show that there's quite a lot of energy left even after the LED trick, + there's a huge return on that AND it surly will trigger unprecedented improvement of the solar energy technology.

I don't understand why you all worry about how much money they got. What dies it matter rom engineering point of view?
I still don't see this huge return you speak of - in economic term you get PURE loss, no matter how optimistic you get. From an engineering point of view it's annoying that people chose to finance the WORST POSSIBLE PLACE to slap a solar panel onto. Assuming that someone would be actually insane enough to finance this vision and pave the whole of the US road system with solar panels it would cost probably enough to cover Texas with solar panels. Essentially what annoys me is that instead of just using places that are perfect for this stuff (deserts, roofs...), are unused and require zero-ish maintenance people threw 2mil USD on a project that has more engineering, economic, safety, social and other reality related issues than pretty much every other bad idea over the past few years.

Yes, if we look at ONLY the possitives we do indeed get the sentence: Roads will generate power and will have configurable lights.
If we look at the possitives and the negatives we get the sentence: After a MASSIVE replacement of roads for an amount of money that would dwarf the space program with a material/system that is inherently unsuitable as a material/system for a road and put an obscene amount of resources and funds into maintenance we get a system that does not produce/barely produces a net gain under ideal conditions.

Quote
About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.
Yes, current roads just sit there, bearing cars. The maintenance for a segment of road is a relatively simple process that involves slapping on/fixing a substance that costs, what, 20 USD/m2 @ bulk (give or take 500%), which is pretty easily recyclable. The maintenance for this contraption involves removal of (possibly seriously damaged) glass hex tiles @ a few hundred USD/pcs min @ bulk with another one, connecting it back into the grid (which can be just as damaged, and live).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: VingTor on June 24, 2014, 02:44:38 pm
I'd like to see these tiles in winter Norway. Where I live we have sun for 4h 30min on 23. December. The sun is barely above the horizon. Horizontal solar panels will not get any sun at all.  Large parts of Norway don't have sun during the winter (but on the other hand, they have sun 24-7 during the summer). And we have a lot of snow.

Good luck Solar  |O Roadways
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: sync on June 24, 2014, 04:52:23 pm
He's technically right based on my generous best case number of $33/sqm.
8m x 150,000m x $33/sqm/year = $40M / year potential income.
Of course he forgot to include the cost of system which I ballpark estimate at $2.2BN
Yes, that's income. But I even doubt that. It's a best case scenario. I think it's more likely <<$10/m² per year. For example you are using $0.24/kWh for the calculation. Which is way too much. I'm guessing this price is subsidized. This won't work when you have massive installations like the solar roadways idea.

Here in Germany we have a lot of wind and solar power. During peaks we have negative prices on our European Energy Exchange. So you have to pay to get rid of your excessive electricity!

If solar roadway can produce 3 times the electricity that the county consumes then they didn't get a cent per kWh.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 24, 2014, 05:23:30 pm
engineers with zero faith
Faith? You argue faith based engineering instead of fact based engineering?

Oh dear, so we are in religious territory. The First Church of Solar Roadways.

Quote
arguing endlessly against something.
Actually, we are not arguing. We have done our fact checks. We don't have to argue, we know it won't work. We pass some "endless" time here because it is fun to pile facts upon facts that it won't work.

On the other hand, the leaders of The First Church of Solar Roadways haven't presented any facts at all, only wild claims. Granted, they did put up a great show church service. But facts? Nah, all they ask for is faith and your money.

Sounds heretical to you? I guess I will rot in asphalt hell then.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on June 24, 2014, 05:44:14 pm
And we have a lot of snow.
And with snow and ice, especially on roadways I guess you have also snow plow trucks that are carefully scrubbing the asphalt.
Good luck doing that to a glass surface.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jimjam on June 24, 2014, 05:55:44 pm
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/)

And this http://gizmodo.com/scientists-made-an-unbreakable-smartphone-screen-from-c-1587301719 (http://gizmodo.com/scientists-made-an-unbreakable-smartphone-screen-from-c-1587301719)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: stenor on June 24, 2014, 06:43:36 pm
Another thing the Solar Church goers seems to believe is this: "This is anyway good, because this is the start of development into green technology and energy (or roads)"

To this I would like to say a few things: There's no point in pursuing this until it's feasible, that is, when the technology and materials are available. You think it's good practice? That they'll produce some magic alchemy with the proposed ingredients? Or that they'll learn something valuable that can be applied in the future to some completely different technology or materials?

That kind of practice is what schools are for.
This is the realm of science and engineering, so why not learn from them? You think to beat them in their own game?
Something to think about.

The way I see it, is, if they against everything succeed with the project and claims - it would fall into the magic alchemy category. As you know engineers don't believe in magic, so why would anything subject to them, become magic? No such thing has ever happened before. It's always within their grasp, that is; their task.

Of course engineers can also invent things, but SFR have not shown anything that one would expect in that regard.
Now if their claims where about research, hiring researchers, etc. It would be a different matter.

One good thing about this though is the awareness it brings, awareness about the environment, and the detrimental state of it.

(I'm not an engineer, just one who's interested in electronics and other technology btw)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 24, 2014, 07:16:00 pm
http://youtu.be/x8iNShq5vVY?t=52s (http://youtu.be/x8iNShq5vVY?t=52s)
starting at 52 seconds. Solar Roadways could use this awesome NASA technology to test their solar road panels. Just Stick tire with normal axle weight at the end of rotating pole. Add motor to rotate it. Will give much better idea of wear and tear on those glass hexagons. Remember to put some small stones and sand in there too. It's normal to have small stones and sand loose on asphalt roads so solar roadways should simulate this too.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 24, 2014, 07:32:48 pm
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/ (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/06/23/3451684/future-of-solar-technology/)

those OPV cells look great ! one more reason why it's a pure nonsense to place standard mono-crystalline or polycrystalline cells into places not suitable for solar cells  (like roads :D ) ;) if those OPV cells will be mass-produced then we can place them everywhere - they will pay themselves back virtually anywhere - because they'll be dirty cheap compared to current cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hikariuk on June 24, 2014, 07:51:08 pm
Nice try guys, but no engineer would fall for that.

And the guy is an engineer. Either the worst engineer ever having managed to get an EE degree (unaccredited prestigious university anyone?), or a scammer.

University of Dayton (Ohio), apparently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dayton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dayton)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 24, 2014, 08:03:47 pm
But they claim he has some patents? Must be really smart to use money on patents? Or other peoples money?

 
Quote from: http://solarroadways.com/about.shtml
Scott has multiple patents and his hardware and software have been sold internationally.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 24, 2014, 08:28:58 pm
But they claim he has some patents? Must be really smart to use money on patents? Or other peoples money?

5,523,781     System for controlling television and billing for its use
5,124,795     Tier selection control for a television set
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 24, 2014, 08:32:54 pm
But they claim he has some patents? Must be really smart to use money on patents? Or other peoples money?

5,523,781     System for controlling television and billing for its use
5,124,795     Tier selection control for a television set

wow ! seems to be even overqualified for solar technology and road construction ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hans on June 24, 2014, 10:30:11 pm
Max: fair point, excellent argument. This is exactly my point, that the video in question is NOT about that but about made up problems like the orientation of the LED, and this and that. If we don't want to do that because we rather spend the money on other things then fine.

If you give an engineer a job, he will know what will work and what won't. You will never hear a thing about stuff that works, maybe a little confirmation "yeah it's OK". Only things that don't work or aren't optimal need attention.

The job of the video is point out objections why such an idea would not work, and back ups with hard numbers to show it's not profitable.

Otherwise engineer would be a dreamjob for everyone.. to stare at things that work beautifully. Oh wait, maybe that's electronics as a hobby? :phew:

Quote
Sync: First thing what comes to my mind is the $40 million profit from a 150k stretch of road vs the $0 profit of an asphalt road.
As said, that's income, excluding costs.
If the whole cost (production + cost + maintenance) per sq meter would drop to 330$, you would still need 10 years for pay back.

That 330$/m^2 includes the cost of:
- Solar panel
- Inverter
- Glass
- Assembly & production of tiles
- Cables
- Digging a big damn hole + frame for the panels
- Installation
- Troubleshooting by trained people; remember.. electronics will never work in the field and need trained personnel to fix things.
- Transport of fragile care (glass is still glass)
- Maintenance materials + crew if something breaks (i.e. replacement panels & more troubleshooting)

At this moment an average solar panel costs about 250 euro/m^2, or 340$/m^2 in Holland.
The whole niche "product" around it just adds unnecessary huge costs, probably tumbling over the price a tenfold (costs per panel may be in the order of 1500-2000$ each, include profit margins, and you're pretty darn close to 5k$ per tile) before the bill has reached the government; i.e. the tax payer.

Quote
I understand the heating cost problem. In the video David is not talking about the heating cost at all. I understand that it's a lot of energy to heat something.

Using electricity, which is very high "quality" form of energy, to directly convert it into heat is just ridiculous.

Also roads are not isolated, so I'm pretty sure the heat will just very rapidly vanish and be gone.

Quote
About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.
But aren't a few orders of magnitude more expensive.

[qoute]David: the other seemingly unbelievable projects are not related to the roadway project but to the attitude of your video and the general scepticism. if the solar roadway dudes (SRD) don't do research or delete comments or evil, then make a video about that.[/quote]
Meet Dave. If he rants, you're going to know it.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Engineers are maybe skeptical; maybe they are realistic.

Quote
You can challenge me all you want. I accept your calculations, they show that there's quite a lot of energy left even after the LED trick, + there's a huge return on that AND it surly will trigger unprecedented improvement of the solar energy technology.

Let me explain how stupid this idea of illuminating the whole inner and outer lanes with LEDs is.


How does the energy flow, ultimately? Solar - [Electronics] - LED. So we're capturing light, and then using that to power a light source. Great idea! :palm:
 
What about the efficiencies then?
I reckon a good solar panel tops at 18% (used in ideal conditions).
A typical cold-white LED emits about 20% of it's rated power as human perceivable light.
Include electronics; like MPPT and a LED driver for 95% each , and you get: 0.18*0.2*0.95*0.95=3.25% efficiency.

So every 1W of light emitted (which is not much), we need about 30W of raw solar energy. |O |O |O
Quote
I don't understand why you all worry about how much money they got. What dies it matter rom engineering point of view?

Because it's a hype. And I think many engineers don't do many hypes.

The concept is just fundamentally flawed, but they say it's all incredible, proven and will help save the planet. That's an illusion, lie and like fraud. Given the fact that they censor all forms of criticism confirms that.

Solar energy is great, and that's probably a big part of the hype, but the idea of:
- Placing solar panels at the most idiotic place you can put them, on the road, in the shade, flat on the ground, etc.
- Having to protect them from the harsh environment of having freaking 30+ ton trucks run over them. This adds unnecessary cost.
- Equipping with "gadgets" like LED illumination and heaters, which piss away all the energy it's producing.
- The ridiculous cost/income ratio that's off by probably not 1 but several orders of magnitude.

If you cover 1 km of solar panels, 8m wide.. you have 8000m^2 of surface area.
If you can get a field of 1km x 1km and dedicate that as a solar farm, the surface area of that is enough to cover 125km of road.
I believe America grows too much corn and soja in the middle of the states, where it's pretty sunny. Just trade that with some solar farms. Sounds like a much more durable plan.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: tom66 on June 24, 2014, 11:57:07 pm
One comment about the inverter in each panel. Why not tie a long string of panels in series, say up to about 500V, then have a single inverter every so often?
Still expensive & impractical either way...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: WattSekunde on June 25, 2014, 12:10:52 am
And think about the wild software dreams of "Solar FREAKIN' Roadways!". They are in a day dream like children adding endless ideas to an infinite wish list. This kind of dreaming is far from any realistic project management or engineering work. They totally ignore or underestimate the complexity of huge networked systems.  Beside all other physical and economical facts... :--
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 25, 2014, 12:40:58 am
Guys,

can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?


time travel
flying cars
fountain of youth
true artificial intelligence
food in pill form
housing on mars
light sabers
laser guns
intergalactic travel
true perpetual motion
traveling at the speed of light.

oh, wait, no, those are things that seemed impossible that we CANNOT DO, because they are impossible, and if someone says they can, they are either scam artists, or complete fucking idiots. just like solar roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 25, 2014, 12:46:00 am
light sabres are possible ! just take some neon tube and go close to a high power RF transmitter  :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on June 25, 2014, 12:50:04 am
People who are NOT Electrical Engineers are falling for this hook, line and sinker.  Read their comments here.

http://news.yahoo.com/solar-roadways-210149010.html?bcmt=1403655460174-57367c33-6b1f-4cf1-8d63-83976b1523b4 (http://news.yahoo.com/solar-roadways-210149010.html?bcmt=1403655460174-57367c33-6b1f-4cf1-8d63-83976b1523b4)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: tom66 on June 25, 2014, 01:55:48 am
Solar roadways goes into the pile of "it'd be great if it were possible/practical/realistic/cost-effective" for me. From an immediate point of  view - why not use the road surface to generate power? It's only when you start realising you'd give everyone silicosis whilst burning money in the trillion dollar range to install it that you realise it might not be that practical...

It could have some applications, though - it might work in car parks which remain empty most of the year, and for some reason can't have canopies installed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on June 25, 2014, 02:08:01 am
Well designed solar farms are still going to be a better investment for power generation over solar roadways.

What problems do solar roadways really seek to solve?
Power generation is a by-product, and nowhere nearly as effective as a solar farm, so it is not solving any problems there. Dynamic lane markings are usually used in tidal flow situations, however that problem has essentially been solved with lane close signals and movable barriers (some automatic and some manual).

The durability and cost-effectiveness of current road surfaces and lane markings cannot be matched with glass tiles and LEDs, not to mention the safety and regulatory aspects of the latter.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 25, 2014, 05:12:13 am
Quote
One comment about the inverter in each panel. Why not tie a long string of panels in series, say up to about 500V, then have a single inverter every so often?
One of the issues raised by the whole concept is safety and what happens during extreme breakdowns - say, two trucks collide. On a normal road you get scratches in the tarmac, various destruction and damage to the road and all sorts of nasty. On a road with a 500V string of relatively hard voltage you can add electrocution to the list of fun joys. You can of course guard against it by mechanical and electrical means, which is another expense.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jimjam on June 25, 2014, 05:13:56 am
Well this guy will go down in history as the stupidest engineer, or as the most brilliant one. Edison too was ridiculed before he invented the light bulb didn't he? I'm not pro or against this solar dude. I can totally understand all the arguments presented here that says that it is stupid and impossible. Personally I think it's stupid to convert roads into solar panels, why not just build solar farms like what some people have said.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: IanJ on June 25, 2014, 06:02:58 am
People who are NOT Electrical Engineers are falling for this hook, line and sinker. 

The same people that think man never went to the moon or believes in 1000 other conspiracies no doubt..........

Ian.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on June 25, 2014, 06:08:04 am
Well this guy will go down in history as the stupidest engineer, or as the most brilliant one. Edison too was ridiculed before he invented the light bulb didn't he?

Edison didn't invent the light bulb. He bought existing patents and improved the design. If he personally did the improvements is also questionable. What he did is he successfully commercialized them.

But lets say it was Edison. What's the difference compared to solar roadways?

To make the light bulb successful Edison, and many light bulb inventors, improved material and procedures. They patented the improvements or published them so anyone could read and check them, and they demonstrated the improvements. Non of this has happened with solar roadways. They are build from existing components, with conventional techniques, and materials who's properties are well understood. So well understood that the claimed (claimed, not demonstrated) benefits of solar roadways can not be real with these materials and construction. They need improvements. But all the badly needed improvements and breakthroughs to make the idea work are yet to come. Currently it is just fantasy. It is all just it would work if ....

And some of the breakthroughs the Brusaw bunch needs, the "if ..." are violating the laws of nature as we currently know them. That is quite a big kind of breakthrough to hope for and bet the farm on. Like the solar panel efficiency breakthrough they need for generating the energy to make the snow melting work under realistic conditions. We are in perpetual motion land here.

Edison successfully demonstrated his bulb lasts a 1000 hours or so (don't quote me on the exact figures) under favorable but still realistic conditions. The First Church of Solar Roadways hasn't demonstrates so much as a single car driving over such a road in realistic conditions. I.e. including breaking.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 25, 2014, 06:22:49 am
A modular, "clip together", no tools needed, theft proof, "build in you field" solar power plant would be great.
- A farmer could decide to equip the side of a field access lane for one Km...
- A home owner has a big yard and want to put 10 panels.
- A NGO needs power in a remote project.
- A EEVblogger need one panel to run experiments...
- America invades some brown country with oil, but wants to limit the amount of petrol tankers they drive around.
etc

Each panel would have it's inverter, cooling, control system, connectivity, super caps, self diagnostic etc...
There would be modules with battery storage, WIFI, GSM telephone repeater, gun rack etc whatever the market needs.
Oh, and be child and pet proof...

Just go on amazon order 20 modules get them delivered flat-pack.
Use the app to find the best orientation.
Click them together.
Get an electrician to connect the 240/110V output to your meter and Bob's you uncle.

It would take clever engineering to get around the usual rules and regulation problems limiting a licensed electrician's role to a couple of hours or nothing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hikariuk on June 25, 2014, 06:38:58 am
Guys,

can you not come up with 10-15 examples to something that we have now and seemed impossible before? Do you need help?


time travel
flying cars
fountain of youth
true artificial intelligence
food in pill form
housing on mars
light sabers
laser guns
intergalactic travel
true perpetual motion
traveling at the speed of light.

oh, wait, no, those are things that seemed impossible that we CANNOT DO, because they are impossible, and if someone says they can, they are either scam artists, or complete fucking idiots. just like solar roadways.

Depending on how you're defining "flying car" we actually do have a few of those, they're just not very practical or reliable (one of the big problems being you need both a driving licence and pilot's licence to use one fully).  I'm also not willing to call a couple of other things on that list "impossible", merely impractical with current technology; it's possible they're going to remain impractical too.

And I'd be inclined to put the solar roadway in the same category, it's not impossible.  It's just impractical.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 25, 2014, 11:19:11 am
This article clams that Bill Nye The Science Guy is a "fan" of Solar Roadways.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye (http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye)
I certainly hope not...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jimjam on June 25, 2014, 02:51:15 pm
I can just imagine people stealing the panels.... The next day the road is gone.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on June 25, 2014, 04:06:36 pm
I can just imagine people stealing the panels.... The next day the road is gone.

in some specific regions of Slovakia, those would be gone overnight (regardless of the length of the road)  :-DD those "guys" i'm talking about got no problem to steal several kilometers of cables overnight (they're salvaging and selling the copper). and i bet those "guys" are not just here in Slovakia :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on June 25, 2014, 04:55:42 pm
Those stealing these tiles could actually make use of them by removing the tempered glass and mounting them on solar tracking arms. They could actually have reasonable payback time this way. Yes, pointing solar panels somewhat towards the sun can have huge impact on their performance. Also removing tempered glass is ~10% increase that gets to solar panels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: pickle9000 on June 25, 2014, 05:06:50 pm
Has anyone seen this?

http://gigaom.com/2014/05/29/we-dont-need-solar-roadways-we-need-to-help-unleash-current-solar-panels/ (http://gigaom.com/2014/05/29/we-dont-need-solar-roadways-we-need-to-help-unleash-current-solar-panels/)

The bit of note is:

"Brusaw told TechCrunch in a profile a couple years ago that their prototype project was expected to cost $10,000 per 12 foot by 12 foot panel, which is probably conservative because it was a projection by the inventor before it was implemented."
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 25, 2014, 07:30:08 pm

Depending on how you're defining "flying car" we actually do have a few of those, they're just not very practical or reliable (one of the big problems being you need both a driving licence and pilot's licence to use one fully).  I'm also not willing to call a couple of other things on that list "impossible", merely impractical with current technology; it's possible they're going to remain impractical too.

And I'd be inclined to put the solar roadway in the same category, it's not impossible.  It's just impractical.

you are absolutely right, "impossible" was not the right word. impractical and improbable, and not mechanically or financially feasible and/or beyond todays technology. but the analogy still remains the same.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Corporate666 on June 25, 2014, 11:28:26 pm
I understand the heating cost problem. In the video David is not talking about the heating cost at all. I understand that it's a lot of energy to heat something. About maintenance and replacement: current existing roads also have this problem without making a penny.

David: the other seemingly unbelievable projects are not related to the roadway project but to the attitude of your video and the general scepticism. if the solar roadway dudes (SRD) don't do research or delete comments or evil, then make a video about that.

Your calculations what you've done from your chair show a $33 profit per m^2 which is a LOT.

With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

But the biggest one - and the one that Dave has hit on most... what is the connection between roads and solar power generation?  There is really NOTHING at all about roadways that make them a convenient candidate for solar power gathering.  They are often obstructed by cars, trees, road dirt and such.  Their orientation is massively inefficient for solar energy gathering.  And the problems of making solar panels transparent and able to be driven over are all manufactured problems... they are not problems that need solved other than because you want to put a solar panel under the road.  But why would you want to do that?   It goes back to the root problem - there is nothing about roads that make them ideal candidates for solar panels.  The heating and illumination factors are not "free" add-ons when making solar road panels - they are significant extra cost aspects of the design.  If we wanted to heat all our roads and have lights built in, we could do it now without the solar panels.

There are such huge technical challenges in taking two things that don't work well together and trying to make them somehow fit, that one really wonders how on earth this project got government funding in the first place.  It really is as harebrained as the office chair with built in toilet, or the in-dash microwave oven, or jetpacks to fly around town with, etc. 

It would be infinitely cheaper to just build giant arrays of solar panels close to distribution centers, and then install lights and heating into existing asphalt roadways. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: pickle9000 on June 25, 2014, 11:37:25 pm
It would be infinitely cheaper to just build giant arrays of solar panels close to distribution centers, and then install lights and heating into existing asphalt roadways.

Yes, that is a good robust suggestion, research that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 25, 2014, 11:44:00 pm
But the biggest one - and the one that Dave has hit on most... what is the connection between roads and solar power generation?  There is really NOTHING at all about roadways that make them a convenient candidate for solar power gathering.  They are often obstructed by cars, trees, road dirt and such.  Their orientation is massively inefficient for solar energy gathering.  And the problems of making solar panels transparent and able to be driven over are all manufactured problems... they are not problems that need solved other than because you want to put a solar panel under the road.  But why would you want to do that?   It goes back to the root problem - there is nothing about roads that make them ideal candidates for solar panels.

That right there is the perfect takeaway summary. I probably should have emphasised that more in my video.
A Solar Roadway has two tasks:
1) It needs to work as a road surface, at least as well as the current type.
2) It needs to generate sufficient solar power to make it financially viable for the given cost and effort to install it.

Even if you managed to solve all the issues with #1, even the most generous ballpark calculations on #2 means it's a completely stupid idea that will never work. Unless some magic new solar materials technology comes along that neatly solves #1 and #2 in one big swoop.
And that's the thing backers don't understand, the don't want this money for research to find that solution, they want this money to take their current idea into production.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on June 26, 2014, 12:36:01 am

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Noah1989 on June 26, 2014, 02:26:04 am
I guess this sums it all up pretty much:

(http://noack-software.de/davepen.gif)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 26, 2014, 02:27:29 am
This article clams that Bill Nye The Science Guy is a "fan" of Solar Roadways.
http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye (http://www.boiseweekly.com/CityDesk/archives/2014/06/23/idaho-solar-roadways-co-catches-attention-of-white-house-bill-nye)
I certainly hope not...

Guess that's why he's not Bill Nye the Engineer guy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 26, 2014, 02:30:08 am
Just because THIS particular implementation of a solar roadway seems impractical is not the same as proving that no solar roadway can ever be practical or cost effective. I can't imagine one at the moment, but that is also not proof. There are many technological inovations we enjoy today that would have been considered equally fanciful to past generations.

Sure, and that's a scientific and technical innovation issue.
Maybe one day there will be a technology (solar + materials) that enables solar roadways as a practical concept in some form, but until that happens, it's pointless to think about.
Solar Roadways is a massive practical engineering problem, currently unsolvable with current technology, and that is easily provable.

Quote
Pick any technological innovation you like that ever encountered problems that made it seem unfeasible and tell me it exists because of something other than time and effort.

However feasible solar roadways might one day be based on scientific advances, it doesn't matter what technology becomes available, optimised solar panel installations will always be better and more cost effective than using them in (poorly optimised) roads. That is an easily provable and obvious fact. That's what Corporate666 was on about with the laws of physics, and not being solvable with time and effort.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 26, 2014, 02:56:10 am
I agree that it's BULLSHIT! and a waste of money.

The thing is that I have to give it to them to raise that money to work on their pet project and we (Humanity) have wasted more resources than a measly 2 million dollars on stupid things. So cudos to them for getting the funding.

My bigger concern is not that they got money for nothing but the political acceptance makes me a bit nervous. I just hope that just because it's popular they don't waste my tax money in this project anymore. If private people want to fund this, the more power to them, don't care.

But if the raising of funds "validates" more government funding then that's when $#!t hits the proverbial fan.

The blind followers are going to keep on following and the more we pressure them to understand the more they'll react and think we are "paid disinformers" (one of free energy movement favorite coined phrase), so the best thing is just to let the mistake follow it's natural course and hope it doesn't get political traction.

I mean they got their GE grant by popularity to begin with, not by peer merit, the other grant, not sure how they got that at all, buzzwords empty promises and popularity? The thing is that the funding stopped so that is some relief that someone don't want to throw good money to bad, so there is hope that this will consume itself from it's own flames (or is it candlelights?)

If their backers want to throw them play money then so be it. If something goes wrong and they get charged with negligence so be it too. They are adults and should know that consequences are a cause of not following due diligence.

Some people will back the underdog blindly just by nature, best thing is to ignore them and let them fail and hopefully they cause no harm to their community.

Believe this, Insurance companies will use their political resources if this causes them to loose money and the panels will be yanked in record time. That is if vandals to take care of that first.

I understand their rhetoric (the "inventors" not the followers) is enfuriating, but they are just doing politics not reason (like x amount of people would be alive if we had this earlier kind of comments), but feeding the opposition fire, might give them more followers, it's that underdog thing.

Are they stupid, nope, seems they know what they are doing, gathering a cult and followers because people love to fight for a cause, the solution lay down the facts and hope they come to reason and if not just make it a non event we did our due diligence now the ball is on their court.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 26, 2014, 03:02:57 am

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.

A guy I went to school with who is now a professor at a university and freely admits he's a socialist once told me "When I was a kid, I used to think big ideas were equivalent to big deeds."

Or as the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on June 26, 2014, 06:05:46 am

......
With all due respect to you - because we don't know each other - there is a certain type of personality defect where people don't understand a thing but display a lot of arrogance in thinking they don't need to understand it in order to pass judgement on it, and naivete in thinking that all problems can be solved with sufficient time/money/effort.  There is a lot of that going around with "solar roadways", with non-engineers saying "well, we'll just find a way to solve those problems".

The laws of physics do not bend for any amount of effort or money.  They are immutable.  The problems that make solar roadways unfeasible are not problems that simply require time or effort to solve.  They are fundamental problems that render the whole idea useless.  Like personal flying cars... they will never happen for umpteen reasons that don't need to be explained.  It's no different with solar roadways - there are umpteen fundamental problems that make the whole idea non-feasible.

...
These 2 paragraphs describe the problem with American liberals.   Good thoughts and intentions can fix everything.

A guy I went to school with who is now a professor at a university and freely admits he's a socialist once told me "When I was a kid, I used to think big ideas were equivalent to big deeds."

Or as the old saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Sounds like he's an old school socialist who knows the world sucks!
Old lefties have met a lot of "Con men",in their own organisations & outside,& know "snake oil" when they see it!

The thing is,to most of the backers,the Solar Roadways guys sound like "The American Dream".

Going against the entrenched competition to produce an innovative new product-----just like Henry Ford,Edison,& many other "free enterprise" heroes.
The fact that they have scammed  the taxpayers is conveniently forgotten! ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 26, 2014, 06:30:57 am
yeah, but the solar roadways are not innovating as in new technology, they are just trying to use existing tech.

If at least it had researching of new photovoltaics then maybe, but I stick to my give them enough rope.

Piss away 2 Million dollars we do that by Many orders of magnitude worldwide, just a drop in the bucket.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on June 26, 2014, 07:06:05 am
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

Is it just that this generation don't ever look at the real world outside their iPads?
Or are they just dumber? ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on June 26, 2014, 07:56:40 am
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

Is it just that this generation don't ever look at the real world outside their iPads?
Or are they just dumber? ;D

Hope is a good deterrent for reason. Even we in the US had to tighten our belts for a change. People lost homes, jobs, all of the above and we are on the aftershocks of this. the term "Off the grid" is rampant. tight economies promote for pie in the sky expectations.

People blame "The Man" and trying to escape that relationship is no different than us (the US) would love not having dependencies with others.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 26, 2014, 10:50:26 am
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on June 26, 2014, 11:44:37 am
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...

Don't think so.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on June 26, 2014, 12:55:32 pm
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,but our Private Sector is pretty conservative when it comes to anything that doesn't give a quick return on investment.
No Government funding,no Trans Australia Railway,no Snowy Mountains Hydro Scheme,no Ord River Scheme,no Australia-wide communications system,etc.

That said,something like Solar Roadways would be battling to get Federal funds in this country,as a lot of other things are way ahead on the queue.
All the very large projects which were Government funded were peer reviewed before they got any funding.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 26, 2014, 03:34:40 pm
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.
...

Don't think so.

Sometimes things are not big enough for venture capitalists to be interested.  In fact crowd funded projects may not even be intentionally profitable. Let's say you have an idea for some new lifesaving device that you want to give away free to mankind via OSHW but just need to get some money to finalize it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on June 26, 2014, 06:23:58 pm
xkcd's Randall Munroe in his latest "What if" story comments:
Quote
Cool-sounding ideas like the recent "Solar Freaking Roadways" campaign don't always work out when you run the numbers.
and has an interesting proposal:
(http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/102/idea.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: deth502 on June 26, 2014, 11:32:27 pm
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,..................

in the usa, the govt are professionals at wasting money. from solar roads, to recycling plastic and paper, to subsidizing "arts", ect.... anything they put money towards is nearly always bullshit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Stonent on June 26, 2014, 11:59:03 pm
imo, BOTTOM LINE, with this, as with ANY "crowd funded" project, if it were a good, feasible, solid, profitable idea, they would not need to beg for money to get it made. the market would fund it through sales of a good product.

anything that cant sell itself, is not getting bought by big corps (who specialize in making money off of products) or has to be funded by the govt, right off the bat theres your first clue its bullshit.

if there really was money to be made with solar roadways, ge, dupont, sony, samsung, lg, ti, chevron, phillips, ect.... would already be pumping them out.

"Has to be funded by the Government" doesn't always mean bullshit.---the majority of the most important infrastructure in Australia was funded that way.

Things may be very different in the USA,..................

in the usa, the govt are professionals at wasting money. from solar roads, to recycling plastic and paper, to subsidizing "arts", ect.... anything they put money towards is nearly always bullshit.

It's like they just keep forming government agencies for the sole purpose of wasting money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 27, 2014, 12:19:53 am
The backers lack knowledge of the current state of the technology,(of any technology,for that matter) so they are probably more receptive to fairy stories than people in Henry Ford's day.

You can't really blame them for that.
Good charlatans know how to sell to the public, and Solar Roadways has done it really well.
But when people continue to staunchly believe, and will express no doubt when people in the profession come along and say it's not possible and prove it with basic numbers and tests, that's when the real problem begins. At this point you don't a public that's been cleverly tricked, you start to have religious belief, and that's both dangerous and sad.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on June 27, 2014, 12:35:18 am
Good charlatans know how to sell to the public, and Solar Roadways has done it really well.
But when people continue to staunchly believe, and will express no doubt when people in the profession come along and say it's not possible and prove it with basic numbers and tests, that's when the real problem begins. At this point you don't a public that's been cleverly tricked, you start to have religious belief, and that's both dangerous and sad.

You only need to look at the 'financial planning' market to see evidence of that!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TheWelly888 on June 29, 2014, 02:40:53 pm
Maybe, just maybe this will increase the efficiency of solar cells and decrease the manufacturing cost? Tofu salt!!!!  >:D

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28017935 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28017935)

Doesn't give any figures though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on July 01, 2014, 10:06:17 am
http://www.michelin.com/corporate/content/newsAndPress/products_and_services/Tires/Michelin-invents-the-anti-landmine-tire-for-military-vehicles-capable-of-traversing-minefields%20.pdf (http://www.michelin.com/corporate/content/newsAndPress/products_and_services/Tires/Michelin-invents-the-anti-landmine-tire-for-military-vehicles-capable-of-traversing-minefields%20.pdf)

http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/michelin-readies-anti-landmine-tyre-defence-application-5687 (http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/michelin-readies-anti-landmine-tyre-defence-application-5687)
(http://www.autocarpro.in/IMG/537/5537/michelin-antilandmine-tyre2115-699x380.jpg?1401108720)
Quote
A standard armoured reconnaissance vehicle exerts a ground pressure of 5 kg/sq.cm. Equipped with the Michelin LX PSI 710/75 R 34 anti-landmine tyres, each weighing 200kg, the roughly 7.5-tonne SOUVIM II vehicle applies a ground pressure of just 360 g/sq.cm. That’s less than an 80-kg walking human, which exerts about 660 g/sq.m of ground pressure per footfall, and – for anecdotal purposes – even less than a 2.5kg rabbit, which applies 450 g/sq.cm to the soil.

http://news.blackcircles.com/2014/05/michelin-develop-anti-mine-tyre/ (http://news.blackcircles.com/2014/05/michelin-develop-anti-mine-tyre/)
(http://news.blackcircles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Michelin-landmine-tyre-infographic.jpg)
These could be answer for solar roadways, even less pressure than that small tractor!
Less pressure than a rabbit, and rabbits can run on loosely packed snow without falling through.
With those tires we can have thinner tempered glass.

If nothing else they can test their solar roadways with these tires and tell everyone their road surface passed the test.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 01, 2014, 04:50:11 pm
Rabbits can set off landmines; I don't really see a point to that vehicle.

i see the point very clearly....

money ..money... money... more money... taxpayers will pay that...  money ! want more and more money ! (said the manufacturer) :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on July 02, 2014, 10:05:12 am
South Africans did that first using second hand F1 tires.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Monkeh on July 02, 2014, 10:56:21 am
Rabbits can set off landmines; I don't really see a point to that vehicle.

Anti-personnel landmines, yes, anti-vehicle landmines, no.

Then there's the capability to drive on sand and mud which normal vehicles would sink in..
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on July 02, 2014, 06:55:21 pm
Those mine clearing vehicles are designed for fast field repair, enabling you to fix it with simple tools in the field if you do get a sensitive fuse. Of course you really have to not shake if doing EOD, and there are a lot of nasty traps there that mean that the blast shield is only there so they find something to fit in the coffin. Most of those guys that have been doing it for a while are very calm, up to a point where they snap badly. Good ones still have hearing in both ears and all 10 fingers.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on July 05, 2014, 12:42:04 pm
OMG there is ANOTHER ONE!
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
 :o

Not nearly as whacko though. The Brushaw's are the Michael Jackson of the solar road industry.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on July 05, 2014, 02:57:00 pm
Ehm... I live about 15 Km from the spot they want to build the test track. Remind me in a few months if you want pictures  ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on July 05, 2014, 02:58:48 pm
OMG there is ANOTHER ONE!
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
 :o

Not nearly as whacko though. The Brushaw's are the Michael Jackson of the solar road industry.
They clearly say it's an experiment. Their approach is to pave a short cycle path and measure over a long period. No 'we are production ready kickstarter' here.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: NANDBlog on July 05, 2014, 06:34:11 pm
Sorry, for jumping in the discussion a bit late. I agree that the main concept is just wrong. But the idea slightly modified could work I think. For example, there is a better suited place along the roads, the noise blockers (two walls on the two sides). There you can have almost the same surface, you dont need the stupid road construction glass, and wrong angle. The cleaning could be by automated way. The micro inverter idea is useful, as there will be less surface influenced in case of a failure, and the inverters would reduce the cabling cost also. A south facing wall would be ideal. Well, north facing down there in Ozzy.

Also, the road type could work in niche applications. Say, you are building a technology related bug conference hall/tradeshow place, you could make the parking lot from this. 99% of the time the parking lot isnt used, and you just need to put some speed limit everywhere, and not allow trucks to enter. It would be a nice attraction alone, telling people where to park, sorta guiding them. Probably it wouldnt break even. But that wouldnt be the point it would be part of the building, the attraction. People pay crazy amount of money on useless constructions, even though it is pointless. Think of it as the Eiffel tower of the 21 century.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on July 05, 2014, 06:58:14 pm
For example, there is a better suited place along the roads, the noise blockers (two walls on the two sides).

We have that (well, almost):
https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0 (https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 06, 2014, 07:33:44 am
For example, there is a better suited place along the roads, the noise blockers (two walls on the two sides).

We have that (well, almost):
https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0 (https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.287951,4.917936,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0)

exactly ! that's how a "solar roadway" should look like  :-+
panels at a correct angle + they're even improving the noise blocking a bit ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on July 15, 2014, 02:29:00 pm
OMG there is ANOTHER ONE!
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
 :o

Not nearly as whacko though. The Brushaw's are the Michael Jackson of the solar road industry.

Building started, first 'panel' (?) placed:

(http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/SolaRoadElement.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 15, 2014, 07:07:06 pm
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...

quote from their web site:
Quote
SolaRoad is being developed as prefabricated slabs. It consists of concrete modules of 2.5 by 3.5 meters with a translucent top layer of tempered glass, which is about 1 cm thick. Underneath the glass are crystalline silicon solar cells. The top layer immediately shows an important difference from the traditional road surface. It has to be translucent for sunlight and repel dirt as much as possible. At the same time, the top layer must be skid resistant and strong enough in order to realize a safe road surface. This is one of the technical challenges of SolaRoad.

they're primarilly designing and building a road surface with the possibility of solar panels inside.... not the opposite way as the hexagon guy did (designed a solar panel with a lots of electronics and leds and trying to use it as road surface).
they are even claiming that making a safe road surface is a technical challenge - so those guys know what are they doing.. in contrast to the hexagon guy who is parking a mini tractor on top of his version and claiming it's safe for road surface ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on July 15, 2014, 07:15:02 pm
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...

Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 15, 2014, 07:28:43 pm
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...

Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report  :)

actually it makes sense in your country. Netherlands is a flat country with no hills - therefore no issues building a road out of prefabricated slabs. it has lot's of bicycle roads - and to build a bicycle road (light load) the slabs alone are enough, so probably those will even pay themselves back when used as bicycle road surface.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: apis on July 15, 2014, 08:43:46 pm
:bullshit: I have to agree with Dave, this is BS. It makes much more sense to put solar panels on roofs etc, then they don't have to be super though and can be more efficient, will have better angle towards sun, production will be closer to the user and you can use existing infrastructure for transformers and such... Even if they could make something that works they can't make it more cost effective than roof-panels or even just putting up panels next to/over the road as mentioned previously

From an engineering perspective, it's seldom hard to build something if money isn't a issue (e.g. pyramids), what's difficult is to make things as cost effective and efficient as possible imo.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 16, 2014, 07:56:13 am
:bullshit: I have to agree with Dave, this is BS. It makes much more sense to put solar panels on roofs etc, then they don't have to be super though and can be more efficient, will have better angle towards sun, production will be closer to the user and you can use existing infrastructure for transformers and such... Even if they could make something that works they can't make it more cost effective than roof-panels or even just putting up panels next to/over the road as mentioned previously

From an engineering perspective, it's seldom hard to build something if money isn't a issue (e.g. pyramids), what's difficult is to make things as cost effective and efficient as possible imo.

wholeheartedly agree with Dave and You and all the others (and myself - as i'm strictly against the hexagon miracle).... but in this case - those concrete slabs with solar panels are NOT about efficient solar power plant..... those are about "let's have something" out of the bicycle road. if you use those as bicycle road  - the slabs alone are enough to build up the road, therefore it might be economically viable - just slightly more expensive than a concrete/tarmac bicycle road , but produces "some" electricity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on July 16, 2014, 09:54:23 am
Solar Roadways: Busted! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzzz5DdzyWY#ws)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzzz5DdzyWY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzzz5DdzyWY)
Thunderf00t finally got around to the youtube video he was talking about weeks ago. It features DAVE!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: pickle9000 on July 16, 2014, 04:31:26 pm
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...

Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report  :)

I thought the slabs where going to be used for the walls of a structure. Even so if this is an evaluation of materials (and it seems to be) I have no problem with it. If however it's to get a bit of the solar roadways "pie" then either they are scam artists or fools (take your pick).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rob77 on July 16, 2014, 05:18:45 pm
those have at least much (really much) better construction than the hexagon miracle ones...

Yes, it looks like something I'd dare to ride my bike on. In fact I will when it's finished, since it is close to me. Wait for the full report  :)

I thought the slabs where going to be used for the walls of a structure. Even so if this is an evaluation of materials (and it seems to be) I have no problem with it. If however it's to get a bit of the solar roadways "pie" then either they are scam artists or fools (take your pick).

look at their web - they're going to build 100m and test it for several years - to get some real world application test results. - that doesn't sound as scam to me ;) they're not talking about mass production, they're talking about verification of the idea and further development.

quote from tehir web:

Quote
Bicycle path

As a pilot, approximately one hundred meters of SolaRoad cycle path will be placed along the provincial road N203 near Krommenie. Before the actual construction of such a cycle path, it will thoroughly be tested in a laboratory environment. In the autumn of 2014, the SolaRoad cycle track will be built. It will then remain in situ there for a number of years. During this time, research will be conducted continuously and the technique will be further developed.
The GPS data of the location are: 52.493875, 4.767134
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on July 16, 2014, 05:33:52 pm
On top of that they only aim to light up the test roadway not power a city or even a small town ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: robbyn on July 16, 2014, 08:50:33 pm
They talk about that in The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe:
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/470 (http://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcast/sgu/470)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on July 17, 2014, 05:51:09 am
Edible Freakin Roadways!

Forget Solar Roadways...It's Time For EDIBLE ROADWAYS!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga_LDbrmytE#ws)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: pickle9000 on July 17, 2014, 06:00:40 am
Edible Freakin Roadways!

I'll give that a thumbs up.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on July 17, 2014, 07:48:56 pm
The dutch project seems interesting. No a wild claim but a real world test.

As for solar panels on roofs, you must remind yourself that in certain places in Holland or Belgium, the available roof space is already saturated.
On the motorway Antwerp and Rotterdam, I'm pretty sure there's a few km of "solar wall" separating the road and a commercial park - probably also a test.
So they are trying to find other places to make marginal gains, not trying to solve world poverty with hexagons.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hikariuk on July 19, 2014, 08:14:35 am
The dutch project seems interesting. No a wild claim but a real world test.

As for solar panels on roofs, you must remind yourself that in certain places in Holland or Belgium, the available roof space is already saturated.
On the motorway Antwerp and Rotterdam, I'm pretty sure there's a few km of "solar wall" separating the road and a commercial park - probably also a test.
So they are trying to find other places to make marginal gains, not trying to solve world poverty with hexagons.

I saw one idea recently to use them in carparks as cover for the parked cars, I kind of liked that idea.  Stops cars getting obscenely hot in sunny weather, means you have shelter when loading the car when it's raining, and potentially does some vaguely useful energy production at the same time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jippie on July 25, 2014, 10:24:55 pm
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)

Couple major research, tech and civil Dutch companies are in that project, at least they have budget and in depth knowledge on the various topics required. I'm curious for the outcome, though skeptical. At least they seam not to have the LED's for road markings and paddle bikes are a fair bit lighter than cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on July 25, 2014, 10:50:44 pm
Solar Freaking Roadways no: Solar Freaking Grandmas! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPomvuEbU5k#ws)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jippie on July 26, 2014, 05:29:12 am
Solar Freaking Grandmas![/url]
:-+ :-+
Interesting fact to learn the reason why they train grandma's and not men.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mtdoc on July 26, 2014, 05:51:54 am
Solar Freaking Grandmas

 Well Done!

Barefoot College (http://www.barefootcollege.org)

Freaking awesome!  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: electrolux on July 27, 2014, 03:51:48 pm
I'm with you Dave but here is what they say about traction:


What are you going to do about traction? What's going to happen to the surface of the Solar Roadways when it rains>

Everyone naturally pictures sliding out of control on a smooth piece of wet glass! Actually, one of our many technical specs is that it be textured to the point that it provides at least the traction that current asphalt roads offer - even in the rain. We hesitate to even call it glass, as it is far from a traditional window pane, but glass is what it is, so glass is what we must call it.

We sent samples of textured glass to a university civil engineering lab for traction testing. We started off being able to stop a car going 40 mph on a wet surface in the required distance. We designed a more and more aggressive surface pattern until we got a call form the lab one day: we'd torn the boot off of the British Pendulum Testing apparatus! We backed off a little and ended up with a texture that can stop a vehicle going 80 mph in the required distance.

What I ask is where is the video? ???
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: electrolux on July 27, 2014, 03:58:26 pm
You've gotta see this part of their website: ^-^

http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#index (http://www.solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#index)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on July 27, 2014, 05:11:38 pm
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on July 27, 2014, 07:56:20 pm
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........

And concentrates the rest...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mikerj on July 27, 2014, 09:38:09 pm
I'm with you Dave but here is what they say about traction:

....

We designed a more and more aggressive surface pattern until we got a call form the lab one day: we'd torn the boot off of the British Pendulum Testing apparatus! We backed off a little and ended up with a texture that can stop a vehicle going 80 mph in the required distance.


Any surface pattern is going to get ground away in no time at all, so it's pointless measuring the grip on a brand new piece of glass.  When they still have that level of grip after 10 years of 30 ton trucks rolling over it then I might be impressed.

BTW, inhalation of glass dust would make the health issues of tetra-ethyl lead and asbestos brake linings look insignificant.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2014, 12:07:26 am
What I ask is where is the video? ???

They don't have a video of a car stopping on the surface after 5 years and almost $1M of investment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on July 28, 2014, 06:14:24 am
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........

And concentrates the rest...

You can concentrate it till you're blue in the face---it's still only 20%!
 (Actually,it is 20% of what would get through an plain piece of glass,which is already less than 100%)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on July 28, 2014, 03:38:48 pm
Great traction, but now it is a matt surface that reflects 80% of incident light........

And concentrates the rest...

You can concentrate it till you're blue in the face---it's still only 20%!
 (Actually,it is 20% of what would get through an plain piece of glass,which is already less than 100%)

I meant to imply it reduces the solar efficiency even more, having uneven light over a cell is not good.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 09, 2014, 11:00:19 am
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.

The issues, I have seen already apart from the issues raised in the video, is where are you going to get the material for the cells? The raw materials are fairly rare, and the cost of actually finding them will sky rocket due to the amount of demand this project's scale will introduce into the market. We can't dig to far into the ground, because the Left will then complain that we are destroying nature.

A E18 panel is going to cost $42,062 (including installation) for a 1.5x0.7m panel. You only going to get $33,000 out of a km of road, which means you need 1.2 years of perfect output to recover the cost of just one panel.

So yeah, this is just like every leftists idea. Sounds like the pink batts, BER and NBN all over again. Thank god we have had a change of government in Australia, I shutter to think how we could have survived the next 3 years with the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on September 09, 2014, 04:50:09 pm
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.

While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 09, 2014, 10:51:33 pm
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.

While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?

Well firstly I never said it was communism, secondly I have only been watching this blog for the last month, and am still watching videos. And thirdly you sound like a typical left yourself. You can never argue the facts and you only attack the person.

Not a single word disproving what I said, not a single argument about how this idea isn't leftist. And BTW you probably wouldn't be so bored at work if you actually did some work, or has your union told you otherwise?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 10, 2014, 12:00:44 am
Ziggyfish pls keep to the topic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Monkeh on September 10, 2014, 12:06:09 am
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.

While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?

Well firstly I never said it was communism, secondly I have only been watching this blog for the last month, and am still watching videos. And thirdly you sound like a typical left yourself. You can never argue the facts and you only attack the person.

Not a single word disproving what I said, not a single argument about how this idea isn't leftist. And BTW you probably wouldn't be so bored at work if you actually did some work, or has your union told you otherwise?

Piss off with your pointless, poisonous political views and discuss the topic.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 10, 2014, 03:15:46 am
It sounds like a typical left idea. Its all about seeming to do something for the environment, but actually doing nothing for the environment.

While the idea is stupid, why do you feel the need to spread your stupid "it is all communism" propaganda? One and a half month after the last comment. Do you scan old threads to spew your bullshit, or are you such a slow reader and writer that it took you 1.5 month to come up with this bullshit?

Well firstly I never said it was communism, secondly I have only been watching this blog for the last month, and am still watching videos. And thirdly you sound like a typical left yourself. You can never argue the facts and you only attack the person.

Not a single word disproving what I said, not a single argument about how this idea isn't leftist. And BTW you probably wouldn't be so bored at work if you actually did some work, or has your union told you otherwise?

Piss off with your pointless, poisonous political views and discuss the topic.
That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along.  Others will do the thinking for you!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 10, 2014, 03:42:30 am
Piss off with your pointless, poisonous political views and discuss the topic.

The idea is good in principal. I myself have had similar thoughts about drains the and rain water. For example, why don't we take the rain water from the drains in cities and put it back into our dams. And yes there are a lot of problems with this.

The issue with solar power is that it works great at small scale deployments. But unfortunately we don't have the technology to make solar power a viable energy source at the scales we need. We haven't been able to produce solar cells at a cheap enough price, or at a small enough footprint to make solar power viable. Any Solar power generation at a large scale is rather pointless until we have the technology.

What looks promising is http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140819200219.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140819200219.htm) . I imagine the day we no longer have massive energy companies and we generate our own electricity in our homes. The way we generate power today is so inefficient and so costly. We loose a lot just in the infrastructure alone. Today, power is generated based on a possible peak demand, eg. if we all stopped using electricity for an hour, we would burn the same amount of fossil fuels as if everyone was using electricity for that hour. Really the best solution, is to create a decentralised system where we produce the exact amount of energy we use. This would also resolve the scalability issue that solar power and we are not transporting electricity over vast distances. And BTW this is the exact reason why I don't believe in a carbon tax based solution to solve global warming.

But unfortunitly that idea doesn't fit well with today's politics. You have the left wanting to centralise everything (i.e the government owns everything and you own nothing) and you have the conservatives wanting to decentralise everything (i.e private business owns everything and the government owns nothing). In the lefts view of the world, there is no way for the government to control the amount of power used. And in the conservatives view of the world, businesses want people to use their product. So yeah this whole solar and green energy debate is all about politics, and nothing about policy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Monkeh on September 10, 2014, 06:05:51 pm
That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along.  Others will do the thinking for you!

Because shoving everyone into one of two or three mostly meaningless political groups and then proceeding to insult them is thinking. |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on September 10, 2014, 11:02:40 pm
Today, power is generated based on a possible peak demand, eg. if we all stopped using electricity for an hour, we would burn the same amount of fossil fuels as if everyone was using electricity for that hour.
:palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 12:30:43 am
Today, power is generated based on a possible peak demand, eg. if we all stopped using electricity for an hour, we would burn the same amount of fossil fuels as if everyone was using electricity for that hour.
:palm:

Do you really think there is someone monitoring your every move and trying to predict when you will turn on a TV, or lights and then start generating the power? Are you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.

I have a friend who is on the board of a major power supplier and he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used. He also notes that the recent rises in power prices haven't come from the carbon tax, but rather the implementation of RETT (Renewable Energy by 2020).

And again this is really the left just trying to seem like their doing something for the environment, but in reality doing absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Monkeh on September 11, 2014, 12:39:34 am
And again this is really the left just trying to seem like their doing something for the environment, but in reality doing absolutely nothing.

Broken record..
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 11, 2014, 01:45:25 am
That is right, don't find the cause for the stupidity, just follow along.  Others will do the thinking for you!

Because shoving everyone into one of two or three mostly meaningless political groups and then proceeding to insult them is thinking. |O
Since when did telling the truth become insulting?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 11, 2014, 02:13:01 am
Quote
Are you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.
That's not what my physics teacher told me.

Quote
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
Grid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked.  :o

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on September 11, 2014, 05:26:46 am
Quote
Are you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.
That's not what my physics teacher told me.
Your physics teacher is probably a lefty :)
Quote
Quote
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
Grid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked.  :o
Don't confuse him, there's a good chance he hasn't taken his meds yet :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on September 11, 2014, 05:28:52 am
I have a friend who is on the board of a major power supplier and he tells me ...
You really need to vet you technical sources a little better
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 05:53:10 am
Quote
Are you really that stupid? It takes time to generate power.
That's not what my physics teacher told me.

So you think power companies just dial a number and thats how much power they get.

The reality is nothing like that sorry (I am truly sorry to bring you back down to reality). It takes time to mine the coal, it takes time to mine the uranium, it takes time to build the solar cells, wind turbines, etc.

Quote
Quote
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
Grid energy storage must have come a long way since I last looked.  :o

Firstly you still have to generate the power to put into storage. The other thing is there is a "shelf-life" with power storage (i.e power leakage). There is also a energy cost in storing and retrieving that energy. Again we simply don't have the technology to make long term power storage viable.

Thirdly unfortunately because it takes time to generate the power needed at peak demand, power is generated ahead of time. Power companies estimate how much power is going to be used in 6 months time, and build the infrastructure accordingly. A perfect example of this is solar. Power needed at night is generated during the day when the sun is shining.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 11, 2014, 06:13:03 am
What I was trying to underline, was that you should be more careful with your terminology otherwise you could give a different meaning to what you are trying to say.

Quote
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
could be: he tells me that the power generation capacity is based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used


Quote
It takes time to generate power.

could be: It takes time to bring generators online.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 11, 2014, 10:31:06 am
ziggyfish - turn on your country flag.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 11:01:55 am
What I was trying to underline, was that you should be more careful with your terminology otherwise you could give a different meaning to what you are trying to say.

Quote
he tells me that power is generated based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used
could be: he tells me that the power generation capacity is based on possible peak demand regardless of how much power is actually used


Quote
It takes time to generate power.

could be: It takes time to bring generators online.
Ok got the point, still learning the electronics lingo :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 11:05:10 am
ziggyfish - turn on your country flag.
There you go.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 11:09:50 am
Your physics teacher is probably a lefty :)

His physics teach is probably a hard-right, its just lefties have selective hearing. They only hear what they want to hear.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Noize on September 11, 2014, 08:44:26 pm
I did this MOOC by Donald Sadoway from MIT called Solid State Chemistry. Excellent course. He thought about the problem of grid level storage of electricity and found a solution. Here is his Ted talk about. This about 2 years old and his company getting massive investment now, because it will make renewables much more plausible or effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 11, 2014, 09:27:22 pm
So where are the batteries?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 09:57:41 pm
I did this MOOC by Donald Sadoway from MIT called Solid State Chemistry. Excellent course. He thought about the problem of grid level storage of electricity and found a solution. Here is his Ted talk about. This about 2 years old and his company getting massive investment now, because it will make renewables much more plausible or effective.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sddb0Khx0yA)

The issue there is scalability, we would need 115,377.1504 of those shipping containers just to power our current daily demands in Australia. Also he doesn't mention anything about how much energy is lost by heat and other processes in the battery.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on September 11, 2014, 10:21:03 pm
That's not horrid.

If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.

If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.

What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.

I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 11, 2014, 11:30:50 pm
That's not horrid.

If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.

If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.

What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.

I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!

That is $100M a year to support the demand 10 year ago. The figure I am using for total households was 2006, it would be much bigger than that now.

But anyway, thats enough ranting for a week. Time to get some actual work done.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 11, 2014, 11:32:11 pm
That's not horrid.

If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.

If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.

What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.

I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
It is $115B, not $1B.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 11, 2014, 11:35:52 pm
Quote
Also he doesn't mention anything about how much energy is lost by heat and other processes in the battery.
Wikipedia suggests that they have it at 69% efficient.

Which doesn't sound great but pumped storage is apparently 70-85% efficient, and in some cases 69% would be a whole lot better than nothing.

I guess another good thing is it would really help with load balancing too.

But it's not going to fix solar roadways.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2014, 11:48:25 pm
But it's not going to fix solar roadways.

Nothing will fix solar roadways, the entire concept is that inherently stupid, like chocolate teapots:
http://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-brew-tea-in-a-chocolate-teapot-did-it-melt/ (http://www.cnet.com/news/scientists-brew-tea-in-a-chocolate-teapot-did-it-melt/)
Sure you can make both work if you really really try, but they are both inherently stupid ideas.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on September 11, 2014, 11:54:56 pm
That's not horrid.

If each battery cost $1M to build and deploy (including infrastructure to integrate into the grid) you looking in the order of $1B.

If you take a decade to roll this out its $100M a year.

What the hell - double it to $200M a year for 10 years and you could supply a whole country's power from renewable energy.

I'm not a fab of government subsidised PV but I can get behind this!
It is $115B, not $1B.

Ah crap, you're right.

Lessons learnt:

Coal power rules.
Don't do math before morning coffee...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 12, 2014, 12:02:55 am
But it's not going to fix solar roadways.

The only thing that is going to fix solar roadways is for us to stop donating money and we shut down fairy land.

With batteries, rather than needing to generate 230 GWh, we would need to generate 300GWh (well 299.980 GWh to be exact) for the same load. BTW that 230 doesn't include any power lost getting it to your house, so that number would be much higher in real life.

But anyway thats enough ranting.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Noize on September 12, 2014, 12:24:27 am
My original post was not in defense of the the solar roadways every well educated self educated person knew it was bull. You have wind turbines developing  energy at night but you can't develop any more because no can use it. Of course their will be heat losses, but I'm sure he has worked it out, from the start, from theoretical to the experimental to see if it feasible. Yeah an eminent and extremely inspirational teaching professor gives an inspirational speech about a solution about a problem with renewables and to think he didn't take into account heat losses even though he is one of the worlds greatest electro-chemists. I respectively say fuckoff. With all due respect.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 12, 2014, 12:30:12 am
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants.  He knows it won't work but he is hoping no one else figures it out.

Everyone who invests in his pipe dream, deserves what he gets, or doesn't get.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Noize on September 12, 2014, 01:10:35 am
Quote from: JoeO on Today at 01:30:12 AM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=32746.msg511462#msg511462)
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants.  He knows it won't work but he is hoping no one else figures it out.

Everyone who invests in his pipe dream, deserves what he gets, or doesn't get.

edit his quote ends my reply stats
Prove that it is a pipedream. Surely this fully "tenured" professor would offer himself up to ridicule missed by other thousands of specialists in the field of electrochemistry which he is a world leader. Come on


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mtdoc on September 12, 2014, 01:21:52 am
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants. 

Ridiculous assertion. No one gets rich from research grants.  Any successful academic researcher who cares about wealth bails to take a job in private industry or forms a start up.

Been there, done that..
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on September 12, 2014, 01:31:54 am
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants. 

Ridiculous assertion. No one gets rich from research grants.  Any successful academic researcher who cares about wealth bails to take a job in private industry or forms a start up.

Been there, done that..

The university gets rich from research grants, or at least it keeps them relevant to the grantors :)
But their football team usually brings more money than all the research done with less employees/students
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mtdoc on September 12, 2014, 02:23:02 am
Agreed about the football teams.

But universities don't get rich from research grants either. They get rich from inflated student tuitions made possible (at least in the USA) by the student loan Ponzi scheme.

A select few universities also get rich from their endowments.

Some also get a large amount of income from lucrative licensing of IP.  Any researcher working at a university must sign away all rights to IP derived from their research or employment.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on September 12, 2014, 02:44:49 am
I meant more as an extra source of income for research, equipment and overhead funds, they are in the multimillion range.
Not rich but hey it does help quite a bit.

Edit: Also, because the lower overhead compared to private research, it does attract tax deductible grants for research from big private corporations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on September 12, 2014, 05:27:58 am
With regards to energy storage, there was a great deal of talk about the "emerging" super-conductor technology back in the 80's/90's and being able to store energy in a magnetic super-conducting coil. Did that all come to nothing?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: JoeO on September 12, 2014, 09:03:18 am
In a university it is NOT about solving problems, it is about getting rich through research grants. 

Ridiculous assertion. No one gets rich from research grants.  Any successful academic researcher who cares about wealth bails to take a job in private industry or forms a start up.

Been there, done that..
I worked for a large computer company.  We had PhDs come into work.  THEY WERE USELESS. 
It took them 1 to 2 years to learn how little they knew and they quickly went back into academia.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on September 12, 2014, 10:41:40 am
Yet...them pay checks!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 12, 2014, 11:52:53 pm
Unfortunately there is no PhD that deals with real world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on September 13, 2014, 12:10:12 am
Unfortunately there is no PhD that deals with real world.

I wouldn't go to that extreme, plenty of PhDs do useful work that we mere humans can't even grasp, they might still have little knowledge in the area but their knowledge is still orders of magnitude higher than our little knowledge.

But I get the hating in something you didn't achieve since I don't have a PhD either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ziggyfish on September 13, 2014, 01:43:05 am
I wouldn't go to that extreme, plenty of PhDs do useful work that we mere humans can't even grasp, they might still have little knowledge in the area but their knowledge is still orders of magnitude higher than our little knowledge.

But I get the hating in something you didn't achieve since I don't have a PhD either.
It's not what you know, but what you do with what you know.

PhDs know a lot of stuff. A lot more than I will ever know and have contributed to the industry far more than I ever have or will (there should be more of them). However the knowledge and experience is only based on lab experience. Labs are designed to be a controlled environment, with minimal variables. PhDs live in a world completely separate to our world, thus something can work perfectly in a Lab, but fail epicly out in the field (although PhDs are not the only ones who suffer from this problem, its really anyone designing something new). As a programmer, I know this for a fact.

I commend PhD students for taking the time to study every detail about their chosen topic. They truly are the hero of the world. But often what they learn is completely different to how it all works in real world.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on September 13, 2014, 02:01:52 am
Since you nor I have a PhD, then it's just pure speculation :)

I am a programmer as well but I've seen PhDs do pretty cool stuff.

As for the controlled environment lab, well they need to discover things and you don't need distractions from what you are trying to figure out.

Once it's discovered and studied, you pass it along to the Engineers that will try to make something practical.

Say carbon nanotubes were not invented by engineers, not their properties studied by engineers. PhDs created them, studied them and figure out properties that could make them suitable for display or camera sensors among other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumio_Iijima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumio_Iijima)

Once the science turns into actual practice, then it's up to the engineers to make it practical.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on September 16, 2014, 04:18:19 pm
Say carbon nanotubes were not invented by engineers, not their properties studied by engineers. PhDs created them, studied them and figure out properties that could make them suitable for display or camera sensors among other things.
You seem to think PhDs and engineers are something different. There are as many PhDs in the various engineering disciplines as in any other subject.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: miguelvp on September 16, 2014, 07:20:02 pm
Say carbon nanotubes were not invented by engineers, not their properties studied by engineers. PhDs created them, studied them and figure out properties that could make them suitable for display or camera sensors among other things.
You seem to think PhDs and engineers are something different. There are as many PhDs in the various engineering disciplines as in any other subject.

That's just splitting hairs.

The difference is theoretical :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: macgyver0815 on October 20, 2014, 12:59:54 pm
Ho ho... in the Netherlands, one Sola_Road-way now exists for real, pictures here:
https://twitter.com/SolaRoadNL (https://twitter.com/SolaRoadNL)
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Legit-Design on October 21, 2014, 03:53:59 am
But no space age Glass hexagons or multi gigawatt leds to shine in the daylight?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 04:07:46 am
http://www.solaroad.nl/en/ (http://www.solaroad.nl/en/)
I wonder what we are actually looking at in that picture. It looks like naked cells on the left, and cells covered by some kind of surfacing material on the right. The guy with the drill seems to be cutting a shaping surface material, which appears to be flexible. I could be completely wrong, though. Maybe only half the width of that path is actually solar cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 21, 2014, 05:11:10 am
But no space age Glass hexagons or multi gigawatt leds to shine in the daylight?

Very little of the outlandish claims made by Solar Roadways in fact.
They appear to be limiting themselves to street lighting and other ancillary tasks that require power, like street signs and lights.
And of course that's about all you'll ever get out of it, and it'll only work for bike paths. Roads will have the usual multitude of ludicrous problem like Solar Roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 21, 2014, 08:51:53 am
Maybe only half the width of that path is actually solar cells.

Yes, it is only half.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bitwelder on October 21, 2014, 04:53:11 pm
Are studded bike tyres used in NL?
It would be interesting to see how they perform on such a 'solar path' and what kind of effect do they have on the cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 21, 2014, 05:46:52 pm
Note that only half the road module is a solar panel the other half is a regular concrete road surface. Thus likely the solar side is only there with the possibility of you walking on it without damage, not really for cycling on the slippery glass surface.

Frankly they would have been better off simply using the regular cycle path and placing a series of poles along it with a continuous overhead panel strip on it of solar panels sloped so that they shed snow naturally, and aligned with the major sun axis for maximum light gathering. That way you use a regular cell unit, and it only has to withstand wind loading and snow loading, plus it makes a nice rain shelter ( IIRC it does rain a shed load in NL so a covered cycle path would be nice for bikers and pedestrians) and it will still work in a few feet of snow in winter, plus it demarcates the cycle path nicely.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 21, 2014, 05:55:00 pm
Note that only half the road module is a solar panel the other half is a regular concrete road surface. Thus likely the solar side is only there with the possibility of you walking on it without damage, not really for cycling on the slippery glass surface.

It's not slippery at all, in fact it looks less slippery than the 'normal' side when it's wet:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0KanI2CYAAsGwV.jpg:large)

And perfectly ok to ride your bike on:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0c9I0aCAAAgSoV.jpg:large)

Also, it's not raining that much here  ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 05:56:37 pm
Note that only half the road module is a solar panel the other half is a regular concrete road surface. Thus likely the solar side is only there with the possibility of you walking on it without damage, not really for cycling on the slippery glass surface.
If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 21, 2014, 06:02:08 pm
If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.

Look at this picture: http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg (http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 21, 2014, 06:07:44 pm
Ok it is not slippery, but see that little strip of ground between the cycle path and the walkway? You could have placed poles there 3m high, with regular solar panels on it, which probably cost 10% of the design cost of these embedded panels. No shading from cycles travelling on them, no need to sweep every day to actually get an output from all the amorphous cells ( and they are bloody big single cells as well to try to compensate a little, but still if half is shaded then the whole thing only gives half power) and they will still work in snow ( Nl does get it, Ma V moaned about taking Dibbis walkies in the snow) until you clear it with a broom. I think a mechanical snow plough will destroy those panels in no time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 21, 2014, 06:16:34 pm
If the surface above those solar cells is slippery glass it won't be safe for bikes or pedestrians. They must have some kind of texturing to allow grip.

Look at this picture: http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg (http://www.solaroad.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/ElementbijStrukton.jpg)

Note as well the company is in the business of selling structured concrete products into a saturated market. There is no real reason to replace an existing structure with still 30 years of the original 50 year life left, only a repair market. This is an attempt to make a poor product that they hope will sell lots of product, and which will also have a large aftercare component. You can bet those panels will break in use easily, I can just imagine the first truck that drives on the roadway and goes over the edge shattering a tile, and just imagine if a tyre bursts on a vehicle and it rides over the edge stopping.

To paraphrase a saying I heard years ago on CNN, "every body knows glass breaks", which is true if you place a glass sheet on the ground. That is why those buildings with glass flooring ban high heel shoes on the flooring, point loads.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 21, 2014, 06:26:44 pm
Sean, I have no idea why they are doing it or what they expect, but at least this is in place, unlike the Solar Roadways...
And I must say, it does look like something you could drive your car over without destroying it.

The poles idea we already have like I posted earlier in this thread, maybe they thought it was boring and time for something new:

https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.2879535,4.9179232,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0 (https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.2879535,4.9179232,3a,75y,53.4h,87.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s0i0STJDaGQknfEWOq-kyCQ!2e0)

Ok, not really poles but embedded in a soundwall, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 06:31:58 pm
I have no idea why they are doing it...
The money?
...or what they expect
The money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bored@Work on October 21, 2014, 07:00:04 pm
Ok it is not slippery, but see that little strip of ground between the cycle path and the walkway? You could have placed poles there 3m high, with regular solar panels on it, which probably cost 10% of the design cost of these embedded panels.

But the thing is, it is an experiment. If you want to measure how good or bad solar roadways are performing you'd better build a solar roadway, not panels on 3m high poles.

They probably didn't pick that place because you couldn't build anything else there but a solar roadway. They likely picked it for reasons like it was easy to get permission from the authorities, easy access and easy topology to build it, long term weather data available for that place, predictable number of riders in that area, etc. And maybe it is just in front of their building, so they can observe it from their office windows.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 21, 2014, 07:11:40 pm
I can predict that they will perform poorly over a year. But the data will be cherry picked for the best spin. Would be interesting to see the comparison from a similar stretch in the same area with panels on either a rooftop or on a series of poles along a road. My money is the panels up higher will win hands down for cost, power output, longevity, reliability, ease of installation and lifetime in all respects.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on October 21, 2014, 07:27:22 pm
I can predict that they will perform poorly over a year. But the data will be cherry picked for the best spin. Would be interesting to see the comparison from a similar stretch in the same area with panels on either a rooftop or on a series of poles along a road. My money is the panels up higher will win hands down for cost, power output, longevity, reliability, ease of installation and lifetime in all respects.

They won't cherry pick the data. This is a genuine experiment. Nothing fluffy about this one in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 21, 2014, 07:34:37 pm
Ok, then this will be a good thing to help those who think solar roads are great, as a negative data point.

About the only good thing for a solar road is it is flat, it is not any more proof against either nature of Yoof wiv an Hattitude, who will damage it. Only those who cannot find a rock, hammer or anything heavy to drop on it will not damage it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 22, 2014, 10:14:44 am
About the only good thing for a solar road is it is flat, it is not any more proof against either nature of Yoof wiv an Hattitude, who will damage it. Only those who cannot find a rock, hammer or anything heavy to drop on it will not damage it.

That's bothered me as well. As soon as they find out how much fun it is to break roads they'll be all over it, innit.

Plus what happens if a sharp object falls off a lorry. Doesn't matter how tough you make glass, it's still vulnerable to being bashed with pointy objects.

nb. Yes, the whole idea is a fail, this is just one more reason.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TheNewLab on October 31, 2014, 09:59:30 am
 Just watched this vid.  Some other considerations;

Wouldn't traffic reduce amount of solar recv'd by panels? maybe not on back road stretch, but on a major street with traffic? Freeways? again back roads sure, only aren't the LEDs more important for major routes.

So let's say  they actually work on the road and are actually safe. Let's say the US govt pays both for the product and labor ( like an Eisenhower massive highway program.) Lets say these panels last ten years..
 What about the cost of maintenance? I suspect it would end up a great make work project that would end up disappearing.

Electrical engineering aside, I just cannot get past tires on glass and having to brake...at all. let alone hard..on in wet weather.

Being solar though, I would really like to see something that would work. not so much on the road itself..just lighting back road signs would be nice. or using the stuff for a walkway...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 07, 2016, 05:32:49 am
UPDATE!
Solar Roadways have released DATA!
http://solarroadways.com/data (http://solarroadways.com/data)

Oh, what's that, it's not data on their panels, but just commercial panels placed around the place to get some data on the difference between flat panels and tilted panels  :palm:
That's what they release after all these years!
 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on June 07, 2016, 06:45:45 am
Those guys just redefined the lower bound of stupid.  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: timgiles on June 07, 2016, 07:44:04 am
Those guys just redefined the lower bound of stupid.  :palm:

Erm.... I dont get it. Looks to me like in 80% of month-locations, the tilted are better. Where I live, roads are not flat, they follow the lie of the land.

 |O

I thought the internet was meant to make us (the human race) better, clever-er (he he), at least better informed - instead we the Inde-my money-go go go, Kick-me in the face-starter (and steal my money) and the idea that placing solar panels where objects will be over them as part of the design!

 :scared: :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 07, 2016, 08:01:36 am
Snow? No data because of four months of snow?

Quote
"Snow" indicates months where no data was collected because the panels were covered in snow and collected zero solar energy. Keep in mind that Solar Roadways will collect solar energy in every kind of weather as the panels will never be covered in snow thanks to our heating elements.

At some point this is clearly not feasible they should just admit that. That point is probably somewhere near the equator. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on June 07, 2016, 09:16:54 am
"As can be seen from the data collected so far, the flat panels generate more energy than the tilted panels during overcast days. "

They don't seem to be showing that data. They do show that in some months the flat panel produces more than the tilted one,  but they don't seem to present any data tying that to overcast conditions. It seems logical that this would relate to overcast weather, but they aren't even making a minimal effort to present a case supporting that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on June 20, 2016, 12:01:07 pm
Finally, with this new information a new era of solar power can begin.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2016, 12:18:41 pm
Finally, with this new information a new era of solar power can begin.

Ground breaking research!  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: CaptCrash on June 20, 2016, 03:24:43 pm
From the data that has been published, I think that the following can be stated (with the caveat, that there is very little data).
For all of the following I have used the 12 months of data 2015 June - 2016 May (the first record has been ignored).

1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here

Method:
Sum the power output of all flat panels 568.8 Kw
Sum the power output of all angled panels 639.3 Kw
Take the difference between these figures and calculate the % improvement based on the lower number
(639.3 - 568.8) / 568.8 = 12.4%

2. Flat mounted panels perform in a more irregular manner than angled panels providing for an unoptimised output.
Flat mounted panels vary by 2.2x over the test period in the amount of power produced, angled panels are more stable in their power production with a ratio of 1.6.

This then provides a further issue, where additional panels would be required to maintain a given base load over the year.  The variability in the performance of the panels over the year will mean that additional capacity would be required at various times of the year (37.5% more panels needed during low output months).

Method
When looking at the monthly power output of a panel, calculate its proportion of the total power produced and express as a percentage.
Find the max value for each panel
Find the min value for each panel
Calculate the ratio of each panel (min:max) and then provide an average of the three panel locations.

3. The data from Chesterfield, MO looks a bit odd.  In two of the three samples, the flat panel has significantly out performed the angled panel.
In no other test data did the flat panel so significantly outperform the angled panel.  With only three samples there is not really enough data to accurately suggest an answer, though it does raise some questions

a. Is there an issue/fault with one of the panels or inverters?
b. Are the mounting locations of the panels are being affected unevenly by the trees to the west of the installation location (assuming this is the panels https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/38.6378614,-90.5167265/Missouri+Department+of+Transportation,+1590+Woodlake+Dr,+Chesterfield,+MO+63017,+USA/38.639774,-90.5159339/@38.639753,-90.5160978,59m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m10!4m9!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x87d8cda70a6fd38b:0x2b4c54d496dfbc0d!2m2!1d-90.5162299!2d38.6398386!1m0!3e2?hl=en (https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/38.6378614,-90.5167265/Missouri+Department+of+Transportation,+1590+Woodlake+Dr,+Chesterfield,+MO+63017,+USA/38.639774,-90.5159339/@38.639753,-90.5160978,59m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m10!4m9!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x87d8cda70a6fd38b:0x2b4c54d496dfbc0d!2m2!1d-90.5162299!2d38.6398386!1m0!3e2?hl=en))?
c. Have the ID's/data for the micro-inverters have been swapped in error?

If the data is incorrect and has been swapped in error, this would move the overall improvement in power production for angled panels to 16.1% rather than 12.4% (Flat 559.1 Kw Angled 649 Kw).
It would also improve the variable nature of power production of the flat cells from 2.2x to 2.1x and worsen the variable nature of the angled cells from 1.6x to 1.66x

This would lead to the following results in terms of power production of flat panels vs angled panels, with the percentage being the improvement in power that the angled panel can produce.
Oracle, AZ 117%
Chesterfield, MO 116%
Eagle, ID 115%

In terms of a data credibility question, this would look to be the most likely cause.  Otherwise, for some reason in Chesterfield, the flat panels have out performed the angled panels by 30% which seems unlikely.  Though they are a different panel from the other locations, so this may be possible, but it would seem unlikely for a manufacturer of panels to optimise of for this flat installation and to be detrimental in an angled installation.

It is also worth noting that nothing in the data page mentions the actual angle utilised in the three test locations.  It is unclear if optimum angles have been used for each location, or a common angle has been utilised.

Summary
By mounting panels on an angle produces 12.4%-16.1% more power and has significantly more stable level of power production.
On top of it being a silly idea to make a glass road, put panels under it, make the surface textured to reduce light penetration, obscure the panels with cars/trucks/dirt/oil etc, reengineer roads and power connectivity.  It also adds a significant level of increased variability to the supply of power.

 :-+ :-+ :-+ Great work solar roadways, Im not sure if it would have been possible to post data that undermined your concept more, other than perhaps data from the angled panel, a flat panel and one of the Solar Roadways Hexagonal units, with the textured glass and a typical amount of debris that would be found on an equivalent area of roadway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: System Error Message on June 20, 2016, 04:42:26 pm
so many arguments.
I thought i should mention a few interesting points though. With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.

Its not good to talk about money in the sense of making something because raw materials vary in cost from time to time and from manufacturer to manufacturer. China has built many ghost cities.

I think putting solar on top buildings will be better because in the City or highway if you have traffic jam than you're covering the road. Sidewalks, the lane bits of a parking lot, buildings would be better for solar rather than roads which are covered as they are driven on. People dont block more sun than cars. Solar covered telephone poles and bus stops as they also double as a roof during rain doubling as a roof for your walkways during rain.

The project may be legit but the idea and implementation very inefficient.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 20, 2016, 05:29:57 pm
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here
Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!


*Wheel chairs, baby carts, motorbikes and bicycles might be inconvenienced.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on June 20, 2016, 06:55:41 pm
so many arguments.
I thought i should mention a few interesting points though. With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.

Its not good to talk about money in the sense of making something because raw materials vary in cost from time to time and from manufacturer to manufacturer. China has built many ghost cities.

I think putting solar on top buildings will be better because in the City or highway if you have traffic jam than you're covering the road. Sidewalks, the lane bits of a parking lot, buildings would be better for solar rather than roads which are covered as they are driven on. People dont block more sun than cars. Solar covered telephone poles and bus stops as they also double as a roof during rain doubling as a roof for your walkways during rain.

The project may be legit but the idea and implementation very inefficient.

The crux of the matter is simply that underneath a bloody road is about the worst place you could ever install PV panels.

The idea is utter stupidity, and has zero redeeming features.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on June 21, 2016, 12:53:49 am
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here
Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!


I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on June 21, 2016, 01:03:56 am
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here
Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!


I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!

The round wheel is SO last millennium!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgbWu8zJubo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgbWu8zJubo)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: gildasd on June 21, 2016, 10:46:16 am
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here
Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!


I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
I've been banned from attending.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on June 21, 2016, 12:22:42 pm
1. Mounting the panels in an angled layout provides for a performance improvement of 12.4% across the test sites.
No big surprise here
Lets just make conical car and truck wheels then! Problem solved*!


I'd LOVE to see you in action in a brainstorming session!!
I've been banned from attending.
They ask you to think outside the box, but when you do you find yourself outside the room.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 11:24:38 pm
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: dr.diesel on June 21, 2016, 11:30:07 pm
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

Yup.  During the winter my roof mounted panels stay covered in snow for weeks at a time, and they have micro inverters mounted under each one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2016, 11:42:39 pm
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

It's the most retarded idea in history.
It should be a standard exercise for engineering student to figure out why the idea is so stupid.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2016, 11:44:09 pm
The crux of the matter is simply that underneath a bloody road is about the worst place you could ever install PV panels.
The idea is utter stupidity, and has zero redeeming features.

Actually it does. It's incredibly good at generating publicity and revenue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on June 21, 2016, 11:51:58 pm
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

Yes ... I didn't do any math, but I, too, had an adverse reaction to the idea.

I mean, it's only logical when you think that with all the solar radiation falling directly on the snow, it still remains frozen for some time, so how could solar cells underneath the snow magically create increased melting?



The crux of the matter is simply that underneath a bloody road is about the worst place you could ever install PV panels.
The idea is utter stupidity, and has zero redeeming features.

Actually it does. It's incredibly good at generating publicity and revenue.

... and that's about it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 01:40:39 am
Oh dear, a trial underway, and it will be crowd funded!  :palm:
http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/solar-paving-ma8ke-first-pub4lic-us-appear5ance/ (http://www.globalconstructionreview.com/news/solar-paving-ma8ke-first-pub4lic-us-appear5ance/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on June 22, 2016, 01:56:06 am
so many arguments.
I thought i should mention a few interesting points though. With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
Try looking up the latent heat of melting water.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: System Error Message on June 22, 2016, 02:04:05 am
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer. All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night. Snow doesnt come down as 1 big lump, it comes down as flakes. Its only in places that get really really bad snow like the far north where the snowstorm is so thick that you cant see a thing and you get snow coming down onto the road from the slope next to it that you would need heating elements.

But the friction properties of the glass is important because when you melt snow you get water and this can make it slippery and if theres snow on the pavements and the road is angled to help with water dissipation the water could collect and make things worse.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on June 22, 2016, 02:07:37 am
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer. All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night. Snow doesnt come down as 1 big lump, it comes down as flakes. Its only in places that get really really bad snow like the far north where the snowstorm is so thick that you cant see a thing and you get snow coming down onto the road from the slope next to it that you would need heating elements.

But the friction properties of the glass is important because when you melt snow you get water and this can make it slippery and if theres snow on the pavements and the road is angled to help with water dissipation the water could collect and make things worse.
So you don't think there will be a problem with your low heat output being swapped by the cold environment which lead to the water being frozen in the first place? Latent heat works both ways. You need a lot of energy to melt the ice, because the environment had the capacity to suck a lot of energy out of the water and turn it into ice. Perhaps your slow thaw concept is based on waiting for spring?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on June 22, 2016, 04:38:43 am
...With such a road you dont need heating elements. The power circuits will produce heat which will be consistent, good to melt snow so just by using the heat from energy loss in making electricity you save even more power instead of using energy for a heating element.
You have a huge underestimation of the efficiency power circuits reached in these years, and a bad understanding of the amount of joules you need to melt snow.
And combined: How to melt snow on panels with the unefficiency of circuits that convert no energy because the panels are under that snow?

While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer. All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night. Snow doesnt come down as 1 big lump, it comes down as flakes. Its only in places that get really really bad snow like the far north where the snowstorm is so thick that you cant see a thing and you get snow coming down onto the road from the slope next to it that you would need heating elements.

I'm not sure if you're from the UK or north Idaho, but your 100-level physics needs some remediation. 

There is no "discount" for melting snow on an installment plan.  Also, the thermal losses from the balance of plant equipment are quite small.  The prototype system for Solar Roadways uses Enphase micro inverters, which are 96.5% efficient, which means that 3.5% of the input energy is dissipated as heat.  For a 250W panel running at full output (which a panel in a solar road will NEVER achieve), 8.75W will be dissipated as heat.  In a snowstorm even in daylight, that 8.75W will likely be 1-2W - for a very brief time until the road is covered with snow or brown filth, which is the usual state of the roads when snow melts. 

A 250W solar panel has a surface area of approximately 1m^2, thus you're looking at 1-2W/m^2.  I'm not going to go through all the rest of the calcs, but it is just totally implausible that this low energy density would be remotely near what it would take to melt snow reliably.  The sun strikes the earth at 1 kW/m^2, so even in wintertime, we could reasonably expect 100W/m^2 to strike the ground during the day.  So, why bother building a solar road, when doing nothing would be 100 times as effective and cost nothing?

The reality is that a snow-melting roadway is an energy *sink* not an energy source.  The only way it could possibly work is to pump electricity into the road, and lots of it.  Solar roadways are a complete and utter farce that only serves to separate us from our tax dollars. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on June 22, 2016, 05:36:33 am
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer.

 :palm:

The total energy is the same so why wait?

The sooner you melt it, the sooner your panels will be generating electricity!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on June 22, 2016, 05:39:30 am
Quote
“If their version of the future is realistic, if we can make that happen, then roadways can begin paying for themselves,”

It's true!

They can "begin" to pay for themselves. Problem it it will never add up to more than a first installment.


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: System Error Message on June 22, 2016, 07:55:16 am
Perhaps by paying for themselves even if its not equal or more than invested perhaps it would subsidise instead.

Heres a funny idea, how about we cover the north and south pole with solar panels since during summer at either poles theres always sun. :-DD

Still i'd like to see more solar, unlike a power distribution grid solar power distribution can be localised so power is distributed to local area only.

I remember looking up about roads that have lots of electricity flowing through them to charge electric cars and probably your phone if it has wireless charging  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Galenbo on June 22, 2016, 09:26:40 am
While snow requires a lot of energy there is one other factor, time. You can melt snow using a low heat output but it will take longer.
Are you really that far in physics? congrats.
Unfortunately the factor time comes back if you look at the rise in surface temperature of a box as function of the heat losses inside that box

All those power distribution, power converters and all other components they produce heat so why be wasteful. Think about it this way, this system will be running the whole time, LEDs and power still distributed at night.
Please express yourself in a SI unit, and show the dependence of the most important factors.
For the newbies: what's the heat expressed in joule/watts/... that is lost in those evil converters and leds, when the panels are covered with snow?

I'm absolutely no world wonder, but the age I could still believe this kind of crap must have been under 14y.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 10:16:54 am
Still i'd like to see more solar

Everyone would, but putting them on roads is demonstrably stupid idea and always will be for dozens of reasons, not least of which:
https://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw?t=7m51s
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: System Error Message on June 22, 2016, 12:22:16 pm
Still i'd like to see more solar

Everyone would, but putting them on roads is demonstrably stupid idea and always will be for dozens of reasons, not least of which:
https://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw?t=7m51s


I've been saying that its not a smart idea to make roads out of them, what i mean is rather than spend the money to make solar roads they would be much better off being placed on building surfaces instead and making roofed sidewalks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Wile E. Coyote on June 28, 2016, 07:50:08 pm
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now.  |O

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: madires on June 29, 2016, 09:07:50 am
Ouch! France too, assumably some other system. That's what I'd call embezzlement of tax money (for BS).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jp430bb on July 04, 2016, 08:02:04 pm
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now.  |O

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)

My Missouri tax dollars at work! I'd go check it out, but the install is a 3 hour drive from me. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on July 04, 2016, 09:49:18 pm
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now.  |O

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)

My Missouri tax dollars at work! I'd go check it out, but the install is a 3 hour drive from me.

You need to do it just for the sake of getting photographic evidence of the ridiculous utility trench they have to build under the road. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on July 05, 2016, 01:53:10 am
Looks like Route 66 is getting Solar Roadway cancer now.  |O

http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway (http://www.architecturaldigest.com/story/iconic-route-66-americas-first-solar-roadway)

My Missouri tax dollars at work! I'd go check it out, but the install is a 3 hour drive from me.

You need to do it just for the sake of getting photographic evidence of the ridiculous utility trench they have to build under the road.
If you live close, taking a few pictures each week as the work progresses would be very interesting. It could really show the massive scale of the work.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on July 15, 2016, 07:50:11 am
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!

Quote
The potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricity

http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mux on July 16, 2016, 09:32:53 am
I've seen phys.org publishing some really shit quality articles lately. What is up with them. I thought they were an outgrowth of the scientific journals?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on July 16, 2016, 10:49:00 am
I've seen phys.org publishing some really shit quality articles lately. What is up with them. I thought they were an outgrowth of the scientific journals?

You pay the publishing fee and submit the paper. The check clears and it goes in the next available space in the edition..........
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on July 16, 2016, 03:48:01 pm
I've seen phys.org publishing some really shit quality articles lately. What is up with them. I thought they were an outgrowth of the scientific journals?

I just saw it in Nature magazine as well. I thought they were more reputable.  :palm:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature18593.html (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature18593.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: 2PiRad on August 28, 2016, 01:39:50 am
My hometown Hannover (Germany) is becoming a new member in this exclusive bullshit club.  :palm:

Solar bike path:
200m x 2.5m (between Ramlingen and Ehlershausen)
Build by WattWays or Solmove
235,000 €

Power could be used to light a bus stop and a crossroad.  :clap:
But it should generate power for 20 households  :-DD

A second bike path is planned with roof mounted solar panels:
100m x 5m (at Krähenwinkel)
231,000 €

Presentation from Department of transportation (pdf / german): http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf (http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf)


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on August 28, 2016, 03:37:04 pm
value adding too up government spending as long as it works at say 2%, somebody's got a job maintaining it   :bullshit:, even white elephants need a good scrubbing to keep clean with a brush and water.  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Barny on August 29, 2016, 09:53:17 am
My hometown Hannover (Germany) is becoming a new member in this exclusive bullshit club.  :palm:

Solar bike path:
200m x 2.5m (between Ramlingen and Ehlershausen)
Build by WattWays or Solmove
235,000 €

Power could be used to light a bus stop and a crossroad.  :clap:
But it should generate power for 20 households  :-DD

A second bike path is planned with roof mounted solar panels:
100m x 5m (at Krähenwinkel)
231,000 €

Presentation from Department of transportation (pdf / german): http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf (http://regions-sitzungsinfo.hannit.de/bi/___tmp/tmp/45081036218561353/218561353/01116807/07-Anlagen/05/TOP411Solar-Radwege_Praesentation_VKA.pdf)

Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on August 29, 2016, 12:11:37 pm
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*

What distinguishes Dave from the people selling the solar roadways in the eyes of the mayor?

They both talk in nerdy concepts that make his head spin but only one of them is saying the mayor might get richer as a result.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on August 29, 2016, 12:42:20 pm
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*

What distinguishes Dave from the people selling the solar roadways in the eyes of the mayor?

They both talk in nerdy concepts that make his head spin but only one of them is saying the mayor might get richer as a result.

That's why Barny said send it to the opposition politicians in the local government.  Give them a stick with which to beat the mayor!
"Why are you spending taxpayers' money on a project that costs SIX TIMES more per unit of electricity generated?"  should be simple enough even for politicians to grab.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on August 29, 2016, 01:02:40 pm
Send a link of Daves Videos to the political oposed fraction of the town - mayor and ask, why they suport this stupide bull-s*

What distinguishes Dave from the people selling the solar roadways in the eyes of the mayor?

They both talk in nerdy concepts that make his head spin but only one of them is saying the mayor might get richer as a result.

That's why Barny said send it to the opposition politicians in the local government.

I know what he said, thanks.

How exactly would the opposition use Dave's video? The same problem applies.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on August 29, 2016, 01:46:22 pm

I know what he said, thanks.

How exactly would the opposition use Dave's video? The same problem applies.

I'm not sure where you are, and maybe you are somewhere were politicians are a bit more civilised to each other and less argumentative (and to be fair, I have no idea what local politics is like in Germany), but here in the UK, opposition councillors will use anything they can to attempt to besmirch the council leader!

Dave's video nicely boils it down to basic, monetary figures.   I'm sure even your average local taxpayer (who will have no interest or knowledge of electrical engineering or solar power) would understand and be annoyed by "six times the cost of the best alternative - as would the local media.

It's worth a try...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on September 20, 2016, 11:05:07 pm
Oh dear  :palm:

https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on September 20, 2016, 11:41:05 pm
As Meat Loaf sang; "I don't know what it is, but it just won't quit."  |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on September 21, 2016, 01:44:11 am
Oh dear  :palm:

https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)

Journali$m.  If it gets view$, then it's new$.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on September 21, 2016, 08:01:06 am
Oh dear  :palm:

https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)

That Is even more obnoxious than Mouser shilling for Mars One.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: thm_w on September 22, 2016, 07:27:58 pm
Oh dear  :palm:

https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways (https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/solar-roadways)

"Arrow Electronics Customer Since: 2015", not long for a product that has a lot of electronics..
I've sent them an email (sitefeedback @arrow.com), saying it was a poor choice to support this project.

edit: that email doesn't work, used the web support one instead :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on September 29, 2016, 07:29:23 pm
And the crap continues...

Sandpoint Will Light Up Solar Roads This Friday
(published September 28, 2016)
http://m.boiseweekly.com/boise/sandpoint-will-light-up-solar-roads-this-friday/Content?oid=3899013 (http://m.boiseweekly.com/boise/sandpoint-will-light-up-solar-roads-this-friday/Content?oid=3899013)

Quote
Now, on Friday, Sept. 30, Solar Roadways is scheduled to unveil its "first-even public demonstration" in Idaho's panhandle. KREM-TV reports the city of Sandpoint will be the first municipality in the nation to utilize roads that will feature solar panels and thousands of LED lights that will eliminate the need to paint traffic lines and caution messages on pavement. Most important, the micro- and macro-textures of the surface will be strong enough to support huge semi-tractor trailers.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on September 29, 2016, 08:14:57 pm
I'm going to try and be there for the unveiling of the solar freaking ...


... sidewalk.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on September 29, 2016, 08:56:31 pm
State and local governments have shelled out $68,734USD for 150 sqft of solar panel sidewalk.  My slightly damp cocktail napkin - upon which my Manhattan formerly rested - rates that at about 2100W of panels, assuming 100% coverage. Excluding all the engineered inefficiencies, the solar sidewalk has a thirteen times higher capital cost than rooftop solar - assuming installation costs of both are zero.

This installation appears to just lay the panels on a sand bed, like one was laying brick pavers. The panels are now a stack up of laminated glass with the electronics sandwiched inside. The city of Sandpoint will have a web cam on the installation. I am going to have to ask if they will have a watt meter as well. :-/
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on September 29, 2016, 09:20:27 pm
The city of Sandpoint will have a web cam on the installation. I am going to have to ask if they will have a watt meter as well. :-/

I assume the web cam should be pointing at the watt meter.

(seriously, if you can contact them then ask them to do it!)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on September 29, 2016, 09:35:11 pm
The city of Sandpoint will have a web cam on the installation. I am going to have to ask if they will have a watt meter as well. :-/

I assume the web cam should be pointing at the watt meter.

(seriously, if you can contact them then ask them to do it!)

Just got off the phone with the city. There will be a watt meter and the data will be uploaded to the city website.  I wonder if there's a rooftop solar installation in Sandpoint that can be used as a control? 

I will post links as they become available.

Apparently there's a lot of press interest tomorrow. :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on September 29, 2016, 10:04:22 pm
Apparently there's a lot of press interest tomorrow. :-//

Make sure you tell them about this project being thirteen times more expensive than conventional solar PV.  The press and the public may not be EEs, but they certainly understand their tax money being wasted!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on September 29, 2016, 10:10:55 pm
What I need are EEVBlog press credentials so I can ask quiz the SR folks about the costs and ROI in front of the rest of the media. The coverage here is so fawning and unquestioning that it defies belief.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 10:15:15 pm
What I need are EEVBlog press credentials so I can ask quiz the SR folks about the costs and ROI in front of the rest of the media. The coverage here is so fawning and unquestioning that it defies belief.

Say you represent the EEVblog community forum!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 10:19:27 pm
I'm going to try and be there for the unveiling of the solar freaking ...


Photos and/or video please!
Ask them why they don't just install them on the rooftops which will no doubt have no panels.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on September 29, 2016, 10:23:04 pm
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!
Quote
The potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricity
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)

Shame that only 1000W/sqm of solar insolation hits the earth surface  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on September 30, 2016, 01:47:31 am
"Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story, unless you can't think of anything better."
                                                                                                                             Mark Twain
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rolycat on September 30, 2016, 06:45:54 am
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!
Quote
The potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricity
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)


Shame that only 1000W/sqm of solar insolation hits the earth surface  ::)

Is that relevant? The system being described isn't solar; it uses osmotic power.

Norway is researching osmotic power systems and estimates that it could generate 10% of its total electricity requirements this way. The limiting factor seems to be the available volume of water with a suitable salinity gradient, such as estuaries.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 01, 2016, 03:10:29 am
Solar Freakin' Roadways failed produce/install their panels on time.  The big unveil that was to occur today is now set for tomorrow (Saturday) at 1:00 pm PDT.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 01, 2016, 04:33:07 am
And the video.  According to the owner, Brusaw, making solar panels is like microwaving burritos...

http://www.krem.com/news/local/bonner-county/unveiling-of-solar-roadways-delayed/328122032 (http://www.krem.com/news/local/bonner-county/unveiling-of-solar-roadways-delayed/328122032)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 01, 2016, 05:13:14 am
Is that relevant? The system being described isn't solar; it uses osmotic power.

Sorry, I just assumed it was asolar solution because that's what this thread is about, my mistake.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 01, 2016, 05:52:21 am
This makes solar roadways obsolete - 1 megawatt per square meter!
Quote
The potential of the new system is huge. According to their calculations, a 1m² membrane with 30% of its surface covered by nanopores should be able to produce 1MW of electricity
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html (http://phys.org/news/2016-07-electricity-salt-three-atoms-thick-membrane.html)

Shame that only 1000W/sqm of solar insolation hits the earth surface  ::)

Is that relevant? The system being described isn't solar; it uses osmotic power.

Norway is researching osmotic power systems and estimates that it could generate 10% of its total electricity requirements this way. The limiting factor seems to be the available volume of water with a suitable salinity gradient, such as estuaries.
These osmotic systems are intriguing, but it seems like they need a level of cleanliness that would be hard to achieve on an industrial scale without using massive amounts of energy for the cleaning system. I haven't seen this angle properly addressed in the material I have read.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 01:34:39 am
We are in Sandpoint now. The SolarRoadways crew is still packing down the sand base for the panels to rest upon. Apparently the sand base was too low and they had to add more. The crew was very welcoming and I was invited to stand on an uninstalled panel. It did not break.

More to come...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: wblock on October 02, 2016, 02:54:11 pm
According to the owner, Brusaw, making solar panels is like microwaving burritos...

The regret comes after the consumption?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:35:17 pm
#1
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:37:12 pm
#2
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:39:02 pm
#3
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:40:59 pm
#4
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:44:12 pm
#5
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 02, 2016, 06:46:04 pm
if you must use solar , stack it on a roof  and do not forget the battery's .   as its useful in power outages.   a house run off battery storage and/or solar panels makes sense,  But solar on the road??, one bad idea. generating more political wheel spin then electricity!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:46:57 pm
#6
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:50:11 pm
#7
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 02, 2016, 06:50:40 pm
Not much power out of those panels, I would guess around 30W per panel, and at a price of around 200 times that of a 30W panel, including installation.

While you can stand on a glass panel and not break it, I would like to see those panels after 6 months of people walking across them with muddy shoes, high heels and the odd bike and street sweeper going over them. Then I would like to see the power output compared to a similar size installation on a nearby roof.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:53:49 pm
#8
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 02, 2016, 06:58:12 pm
#8

6 mains fed power supplies for a solar power GENERATION plant? Are they going to be used to supplant the solar panels and drive the inverter when there is insufficient sunlight? Does the monitoring circuitry require so much power that they need all those units.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 06:59:44 pm
Hold on Sean, more info coming.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 07:02:32 pm
#9
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 07:04:16 pm
OK folks, this is going to be a looong post, so bear with me.  We visited Sandpoint, Idaho yesterday evening to view the SolarRoadways demonstration.  For anyone who wishes to visit, the City of Sandpoint has a webpage with a webcam on the demo site here:  http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-11 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-11)

The system as of 10:20 PDT is now installed and operating.  Watching people on the webcam is interesting because all exhibit the same behavior.  First, they place a foot on the panels to see if they are secure, then they look.  Next, they take a tentative step onto the panels and finally decide to walk across them. 

The installation commits the sin of partial panel shading.  Even at 10:00 am, the panels are shaded by the building they are installed adjacent to. 
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259866;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259861;image)


Here are some details about the panels themselves.  We now no longer need to guess at values.  Each panel is 44W and there are 30 panels in total.  So, the theoretical maximum power generation is 1320W.  Based on the datasheets for the microinverters, I am surmising that the panels operate at 24VDC, since the lowest input voltage is 16VDC. 
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259826;image)


Solar Roadways experienced some manufacturing problems and, if I recall correctly, only 14 of the panels are operational.  The defective ones will be replaced as they get new PCBs.  Apparently the PCBs were delaminated during the vacuum curing process. 

Each panel consists of two pieces of tempered glass with a hollow cavity to hold the cells and electronics packages.  The electronics packages are potted in some type of clear resin (silicone?) between the two pieces of glass.  There have obviously been some problems with evacuating the air out of the sandwich – as evidenced by the bubbles in the photos. 

The panels are connected together by 4-pin flat trailer lighting connectors.  The wires on these appear to be 16AWG, while the DC wiring back to the panel is 14AWG. Each panel is connected by two wires – and this is where things get interesting – by looking at the panels closely it clearly appears that each was originally intended to have an eight wire interface.  Six of the wires have been cut off at the edge of the panel.  More on this in a bit.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259828;image)

The installation is a bit strange in that the rated wattage of the panels exceeds the ampacity of the cabling that should be carrying the power to the panel.  The installation should generate 55A at 24VDC at peak, yet only three 14AWG cables are provided back to the panel with a rated ampacity of 15A each.  Even stranger, there are 5 microinverters for the three 12VDC cables.  Maybe two more cables were pulled during the night, but it looked like the conduit was close to full to me. 
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259851;image)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259853;image)

I need to say that while I did not meet the Brusaws, the team members on site were incredibly nice and helpful.  I was given full access to photograph what I wanted and even invited to stand on a panel – which I did – and it survived my immense bulk admirably. 

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259836;image)

I would urge people to be kind when commenting.  The SolarRoadways employees have been absolutely working their assess off with little to no sleep getting this demonstration ready.  Whatever I have to criticize technically, I certainly would not criticize the herculean efforts that good people have put forth in bringing their idea to fruition.  So, good work, SolarRoadways crew! 

These particular panels are installed on a sand base in nearly the same manner one would install concrete pavers.  The panels are locked together with metal strips top and bottom which are screwed together.  The edges that border the concrete have aluminum strips that are attached to the concrete to lock the panels into place.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259834;image)

Here is the third panel being laid down:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259847;image)
I also managed to look inside the control panel / kiosk, and this is where things get interesting.  Solar Roadways has kept its topology of using EnPhase micro inverters.  These inverters are the M215-IG models.  I was told that the inverters connect directly to the local utility.  I’m not sure that this is correct, since these are 120/240V inverters, but perhaps the utility has enabled some type of net metering. 
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259842;image)

Where things get really interesting is in the upper right hand side of the panel.  One finds a total of six MeanWell 500W power supplies.  This does not mean they are supplying 3000W constantly, but the fact that the power supply is more than double the rated wattage of the power generation side, should lead one to some obvious conclusions.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259845;image)

What I do not know at this time is what wattage the heaters are rated at. 

Here are some calcs with what I know about the installation:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259859;image)


SolarRoadways has conducted demonstrations of the panels using a power supply to light the LEDs – even in daylight.  This is surprising to me because one would think that each solar panel, at 44W, would be able to provide its own power for the micro and a couple watts of LEDs.  I saw several panels that were ostensibly functional, but saw none operate under natural or artificial lighting.  I have a suspicion that these panels operate as only powered devices at the present time.  I will know more next week once the meter goes on line.  I will be contacting the City of Sandpoint on this as well. 

I honestly think SR was overly ambitious with this installation.  If they had simply confined themselves to solar generation only, without worrying about microcontrollers and blinky LEDs, that this may have gone better.  What the city of Sandpoint has at this time appears to be a piece of artwork, more than a power generation system.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 07:08:44 pm
Site
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 07:15:22 pm
Shading
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 02, 2016, 07:19:24 pm
Not much power out of those panels, I would guess around 30W per panel, and at a price of around 200 times that of a 30W panel, including installation.

While you can stand on a glass panel and not break it, I would like to see those panels after 6 months of people walking across them with muddy shoes, high heels and the odd bike and street sweeper going over them. Then I would like to see the power output compared to a similar size installation on a nearby roof.

44W each.  They pay a huge price in capacity for the hexagonal design.  Theoretical output should be 2100 W if they had used 150sqft of conventional solar panels. So, they are losing about35% in capacity in the design alone.

I'm looking for a comparable site in the Sandpoint area with online data.  Not sure I will find one. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 02, 2016, 11:58:15 pm
That webcam will be a hit in the winter time, when this things gets covered with ice and people start slipping and falling.

Overall - topic title says it all. And taking public money for this is a total scam.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 03, 2016, 12:43:30 am
That is an odd assortment of parts.

I assume they are providing a 3 phase output with the 3 inverters, but they are 215W continuous each so very underrated for the panels. I do not quite see the point of a test like this if you are using inadequate cables and inadequate inverters - unless they know that the panels will only output less then a total of 600W absolute maximum.

The inverters will only switch on at 22V and the optimal working range for the inverters is 27V-39V so maybe the panels are wired for more then 24V.

And what are they doing with the 6 x 12V supplies from the mains? 12V is too low as a backup for the inverters and if they as putting a pair in series to get 24V, why wouldn't they buy 24V supplies? It does seem to suggest that they are using 10 panels per phase rather then pooling all the panel outputs together. It sounds like they are just making do with bits and pieces they had available.

It would be disappointing if this is just a stunt instead of a proper test to gather data.

If the idea is to gather data, then I do not mind the shadows - that it the reality of Solar Roadways unless you are going to ban cars, people, trees and all buildings anywhere near the roadways.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 01:17:45 am
That is an odd assortment of parts.

I assume they are providing a 3 phase output with the 3 inverters, but they are 215W continuous each so very underrated for the panels. I do not quite see the point of a test like this if you are using inadequate cables and inadequate inverters - unless they know that the panels will only output less then a total of 600W absolute maximum.

The inverters will only switch on at 22V and the optimal working range for the inverters is 27V-39V so maybe the panels are wired for more then 24V.

And what are they doing with the 6 x 12V supplies from the mains? 12V is too low as a backup for the inverters and if they as putting a pair in series to get 24V, why wouldn't they buy 24V supplies? It does seem to suggest that they are using 10 panels per phase rather then pooling all the panel outputs together. It sounds like they are just making do with bits and pieces they had available.

It would be disappointing if this is just a stunt instead of a proper test to gather data.

If the idea is to gather data, then I do not mind the shadows - that it the reality of Solar Roadways unless you are going to ban cars, people, trees and all buildings anywhere near the roadways.

As far as I could tell, this is single phase 120/240VAC.

The power supplies must be for the heaters - all I can figure. Between the automotive connectors and the 12VDC power supplies, I thought it was a 12VDC bus until I looked up the inverter datasheet like you did. Good catch on the 22V startup voltage.

I doubt this is a 120VDC system. Anything over 48VDC is not compatible with people safety.

Like I said, I will be in touch with the right people on the generation side.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 03, 2016, 01:28:15 am
The power supplies must be for the heaters...

If there is only a pair of wires to each panel as shown in your photos, where does the heater bit come in?
Is there a separate heater pad under the panels...  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 01:41:07 am
The power supplies must be for the heaters...

If there is only a pair of wires to each panel as shown in your photos, where does the heater bit come in?
Is there a separate heater pad under the panels...  :-//

I *think* it's sandwiched in the stack up. The PCBs are labeled with some type of temp sensor. But, unless the wiring is dramatically increased in gauge, it's unclear to me how the power will be transmitted without melting the insulation. Each power supply can deliver 40+ amps.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 03, 2016, 02:01:49 am
I'm confused...
Two wires are required for the transmission of power from the panels to the inverters.
There doesn't appear to be any electrical connection for heaters, unless I am missing something from your photos.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 02:05:56 am
I'm confused...
Two wires are required for the transmission of power from the panels to the inverters.
There doesn't appear to be any electrical connection for heaters, unless I am missing something from your photos.

I'm saying the heaters seem to be internal to the panel. It's all very puzzling to me as well.

---------

Disco floor mode.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ctw5SvRUIAELu1s?format=jpg&name=large)

Don't ask me how ANY of the lighting displayed corresponds to creating the yellow and white lane marking used on roadways. I haven't even seen what resembles an attempt to do so.

-------------------
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259933;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 03, 2016, 02:16:04 am
3000W of heating to keep a 600W maximum solar panel/inverter system running. It is still only 100W of heating per panel - is that enough? At a guess, it is probably enough to raise the panel temperature by 10 deg C if there is no snow or water. It will be interesting to see if historic and live data is available when the system is running.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 02:31:54 am
3000W of heating to keep a 600W maximum solar panel/inverter system running. It is still only 100W of heating per panel - is that enough? At a guess, it is probably enough to raise the panel temperature by 10 deg C if there is no snow or water. It will be interesting to see if historic and live data is available when the system is running.

You're correct assuming what I saw was the final install.  To be fair, if all the panels were operational *and* connected to the inverters and assuming similar efficiency to rooftop solar, it would be a 1320W system. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 03, 2016, 02:34:33 am
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.

A successful marketing campaign. Not.
I wonder if they went to the Roo Brothers School of Marketing.
Second thoughts, they can’t have, they delivered something…
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 02:44:22 am
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.

A successful marketing campaign. Not.
I wonder if they went to the Roo Brothers School of Marketing.
Second thoughts, they can’t have, they delivered something…

Look at the live video feed.  Whatever I think as an engineer, this system has been an absolute success from a PR standpoint.  Kids love it. They have every kid in town coming by to play electric hopscotch. 

From the people that I've spoken to, I predict that absolutely no one will make a critical evaluation of this system from a "does it actually do what it was promised" standpoint.  Nobody cares if it generates a net surplus of power, cost per kW of power delivered, installed cost per kWe, cost per mile of road, if it will stand up to studded snow tires, whether it can produce legible road markings that are visible from a long distance during daylight hours.  Nobody cares.  And I'm talking about even the people that should know better.

All you need are blinky LEDs.  Nothing else matters.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 03, 2016, 03:16:09 am
All you need are blinky LEDs.  Nothing else matters.

Agreed.
Our stupid local council paid a fivetune for pavement mounted water fountains with multi colour LEDs under the water spouts.
The solenoids turn on and off in a sequenced pattern through the four of five jets spaced about 2 meters appart.
Nobody seems to care that it cost the rate payer mega-bucks.
Everyone just says "Isn't it pretty".

To add insult to injury, they also run it in the height of summer.
Water being splashed all over the show by the kids and evaporation... All during water restrictions when I am not allowed to water my vegetables...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 03:24:57 am
They did it better in 1977:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259940;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 03, 2016, 03:25:47 am
All you need are blinky LEDs.  Nothing else matters.
Then hire Mike, he knows how to make robust large scale blinking LED installations :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 03:35:55 am
All you need are blinky LEDs.  Nothing else matters.
Then hire Mike, he knows how to make robust large scale blinking LED installations :)

You read my mind.  I immediately thought that Mike could do something 100X as cool in 1/10 the time *and* it would do what it's supposed to.   :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 03, 2016, 04:31:07 am
Quote
They did it better in 1977:
[/size] Yay! Leds Lol  :-DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0RKlCqQcQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT0RKlCqQcQ)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 05:14:27 am
Site
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259861;image)

There is a perfectly good road right in front of it, why not install the Solar Roadway there?  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 03, 2016, 05:16:26 am
There is a perfectly good road right in front of it, why not install the Solar Roadway there?  ::)
City administration is not THAT stupid.

Also this green roof building is a public restroom, regular solar panels can go on top of that. They will be way more efficient, but won't have blinky LEDs, of course.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 05:32:01 am
#1
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259826;image)

Wow that's a lot of wasted square area per panel.

And why don't they look like they were supposed to?
(http://www.renewablesinternational.net/files/smthumbnaildata/lightboxdetail/3/7/7/0/9/4/SolarRoadways.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 05:38:46 am
They light up so pretty at night!
I wonder were they get the power from...
(http://i.imgur.com/Ih0nwzi.png)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 05:50:35 am
Disco floor mode.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ctw5SvRUIAELu1s?format=jpg&name=large)

Don't ask me how ANY of the lighting displayed corresponds to creating the yellow and white lane marking used on roadways. I haven't even seen what resembles an attempt to do so.

The LEDs are quite coarsely spaced, and unless the panels are installed diagonally from the oncoming traffic, straights lines are going to be hard. BUt even then, look at the panels, the LEDs don't even line up between panels  :palm:
Not that the LED idea is ever going to be practical anyway  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 06:07:19 am
Site
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=259861;image)

There is a perfectly good road right in front of it, why not install the Solar Roadway there?  ::)

An even better question would be, why didn't Solar Roadways install the system at their own parking lot entrance, where cars drive in and out every day? 

The panels had to be installed on the sidewalk, because the minute it snowed, those panels would shatter with the first chained-up UPS truck going over.

And they don't look like they originally did because I'm fairly certain they realized just *how* poor the transmissivity of those first glass slabs were. Not that I think after the potting compound in these ages and yellows that this generation will fare much better.

Tomorrow, I will go dialing for kW-h data. It should be interesting...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 06:12:18 am
They light up so pretty at night!
I wonder were they get the power from...
(http://i.imgur.com/Ih0nwzi.png)

By the way, that gentleman in the photo is a filmmaker (didn't get his name), so expect some type of movie-ish/documentary to be coming down the pike. When I saw him yesterday, he was sweeping sand to help with the install.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 06:24:28 am
The LEDs are quite coarsely spaced, and unless the panels are installed diagonally from the oncoming traffic, straights lines are going to be hard. BUt even then, look at the panels, the LEDs don't even line up between panels  :palm:
Not that the LED idea is ever going to be practical anyway  ::)

The hexagonal shape is a complete train wreck from a design and efficiency standpoint.

I'll see if I can get up to Sandpoint in a week and take some daylight photos just to illustrate how indistinct the LEDs are. I saw absolutely no effort to address the directionality of the LEDs.  I'm trying to be neutral, but it's hard not to feel insulted by just how little effort was put into developing a functional roadway that generates solar power. The two most important criteria have been completely ignored. And this is after ten years and nearly $3MM USD.

Thus far, nobody who is footing the bill seems to care a whit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2016, 07:06:15 am
7:26 pm PDT - Less than 12 hours after unveiling, two of the working panels have already had some type of electrical failure.

It's all part of the scam.

Now they can ask for more funding before anybody gets a chance to fully analyze the Wattage data.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 03, 2016, 12:03:20 pm
 Even better - not only is there a perfectly good roadway right in front of the location, there's a nice crosswalk there that oculd have been redone with the solar panels. After all, if they can keep the snow and ice off, plus generate power, wouldn't it make sense, keeping the crosswalk safer for pedestrians? And the whole thing could light up red when there's oncoming traffic as an alternative to the Do Not Walk sign.

 As for the comparison to Saturday Night Fever, well, they do have one HUGE advantage - being LEDs they won't get nearly as hot as those 70's disco floors. But absolutely agree, enough blinken lights and the public is fascinated and won't care if the whole thing is actually energy negative.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 03, 2016, 12:27:47 pm
The top surface of those panels appears to be an ordinary flat glass sheet. Isn't that going to be a little slippery if it rains? It looks like a real health and safety issue for passnig pedestrians. What happened to their low wear high grip vehicle grade glass surface?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 12:42:32 pm
The top surface of those panels appears to be an ordinary flat glass sheet. Isn't that going to be a little slippery if it rains? It looks like a real health and safety issue for passnig pedestrians. What happened to their low wear high grip vehicle grade glass surface?

There is actually a very fine, but grippy texture on the surface. No worries about slipping. I tried it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 01:27:50 pm
The panels had to be installed on the sidewalk, because the minute it snowed, those panels would shatter with the first chained-up UPS truck going over.

Yup. After all these years and millions of dollars in development, the only thing that's been on these tiles is a sub 1ton tractor with low pressure tires  :palm:

Quote
And they don't look like they originally did because I'm fairly certain they realized just *how* poor the transmissivity of those first glass slabs were. Not that I think after the potting compound in these ages and yellows that this generation will fare much better.

Yup again. They'll never release that data though.

Tomorrow, I will go dialing for kW-h data. It should be interesting...
[/quote]
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 01:32:55 pm
I'll see if I can get up to Sandpoint in a week and take some daylight photos just to illustrate how indistinct the LEDs are. I saw absolutely no effort to address the directionality of the LEDs.  I'm trying to be neutral, but it's hard not to feel insulted by just how little effort was put into developing a functional roadway that generates solar power. The two most important criteria have been completely ignored. And this is after ten years and nearly $3MM USD.

Yup, and here us "doubters" with our silly engineering data and knowledge we were getting attacked by the true believers about how the LED solution could be easily solved :blah: and they haven't even tried.
Perhaps they already know it's entirely impractical?
Oh, you want to direct those LED's? Which direction? How much loss? How much power is required?  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: digsys on October 03, 2016, 01:55:25 pm
Quote from: LabSpokane
  There is actually a very fine, but grippy texture on the surface. No worries about slipping. I tried it. 
And seriously, how long will that last ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 02:32:17 pm
The Engadget peanut gallery are out  :palm:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/ (https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/)

(http://i.imgur.com/Bv5lxPz.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 02:33:35 pm
Quote from: LabSpokane
  There is actually a very fine, but grippy texture on the surface. No worries about slipping. I tried it. 
And seriously, how long will that last ?

As a road?  It would likely be worn down very quickly. As a disco floor, it will likely stay grippy enough to impede many of the more advanced moves for a few months.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 03, 2016, 02:42:24 pm
The Engadget peanut gallery are out  :palm:
https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/ (https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/02/solar-roadways-public-test/)

(http://i.imgur.com/Bv5lxPz.png)

And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 03, 2016, 03:15:59 pm
It looks like we have an answer to visibility of road markings question. Here is how that thing looks in a day light.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2016, 05:35:13 pm
And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.

But they're Americans! Americans can achieve anything if they just want it badly enough.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 03, 2016, 06:31:15 pm
And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.

But they're Americans! Americans can achieve anything if they just want it badly enough.
And just how badly do they want their solar roadways to work?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 03, 2016, 07:09:15 pm
And so is missed the entire point of having an education in science and engineering: so we can spend 10 minutes with a napkin and a calculator and know what *not* to spend $3MM and ten years developing.

But they're Americans! Americans can achieve anything if they just want it badly enough.
And just how badly do they want their solar roadways to work?
Several million $$$ of taxpayer money, that's how badly. That's what fuels their passion. It's the American dream!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 03, 2016, 11:01:34 pm
It looks like we have an answer to visibility of road markings question. Here is how that thing looks in a day light.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260038;image)

Did they switch it on?  :-DD
And it's early morning and there isn't any direct sunlight (no shadows)
And they are reflective buggers too, surprise surprise.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nctnico on October 03, 2016, 11:16:14 pm
And why isn't the solar roadway not in the road but on the sidewalk? Has it become a solar sidewalk?

Besides that it isn't the first public solar roadway. There has been one in the Netherlands since 2014.
On this website ( https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/ (https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/) ) they are touting a whopping result of 70kWh per square meter. Not mentioning that that number is half of what you'd get when the panels are properly mounted on a roof.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 12:00:55 am
Hold the presses!
There is a film coming:
http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/ (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/)

Guess the plot  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 12:04:31 am
And why isn't the solar roadway not in the road but on the sidewalk? Has it become a solar sidewalk?

Basically.
IIRC they have several product directions now and one of them is for solar sidewalks or whatever. Maybe they even have different glass types?

Quote
Besides that it isn't the first public solar roadway. There has been one in the Netherlands since 2014.
On this website ( https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/ (https://www.tno.nl/nl/over-tno/nieuws/2015/12/solaroad-in-de-race-voor-europese-milieuprijs/) ) they are touting a whopping result of 70kWh per square meter. Not mentioning that that number is half of what you'd get when the panels are properly mounted on a roof.

I've done two videos on that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 04, 2016, 12:10:50 am
And why isn't the solar roadway not in the road but on the sidewalk? Has it become a solar sidewalk?

Maybe its because when you Google "Solar Sidewalk" the word BULLSHIT does not appear as often as when you Google "Solar Roadways"...  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on October 04, 2016, 12:13:18 am
Hold the presses!
There is a film coming:
http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/ (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/)

Guess the plot  ::)

If you spend enough on advertising and PR, whether it works or not is immaterial.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 12:37:34 am
They are fishing for another grant for inclusion of EV charging!

http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog)

Quote
This year, we began talks with a consortium in Utah (http://select.usu.edu/ (http://select.usu.edu/)) who are working on the technology for dynamic charging of EVs (charging while they drive). They tell us that if just interstates alone which account for 2% of roads offered this service, it would take care of 98% of the miles EVs travel.

But integrating such technology into a standard road would be difficult. Solar Roadways® panels create an electric road with the needed electricity and all of the cabling and connections to facilitate the implementation of this technology. Their mutual induction plates could be fitted right into a Solar Roadway®. To that end, we are looking for a shared grant to enable research and development of this collaboration. We’d like to create a shared demonstration at their ¼-mile track to show what the marriage of these two technologies would offer to the EV industry and of course… our fragile planet.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nctnico on October 04, 2016, 01:07:55 am
IMHO it is time politicians should pass a math and physics test before being allowed to become part of the government. After all every job has minimum requirements so why should being part of the government be any different?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 04, 2016, 01:56:53 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 04, 2016, 02:11:48 am
The third panel is dead. What a piece of junk. They could not even manage to make a reliable LED blinky.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 04, 2016, 02:13:51 am
Did they switch it on?  :-DD
It was on, but the only way it was visible is by changes on the stream compression quality around changing areas.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 02:26:53 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Yup. Those panels are dropping like flies.

It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.

Not that this will have any effect on the stream of grant money...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 04, 2016, 02:32:28 am
It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.

WS2812B LEDs from seller dodgy_leds_r_us on ebay...  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 02:59:22 am
They're rebooting it right now.  Looks like they might have a voltage drop problem.  I'm watching them trouble shoot it live. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 03:02:27 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Was it only the centre 12 that are supposed to be lit up? If so, then all working when I just looked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 04, 2016, 03:04:07 am
Was it only the centre 12 that are supposed to be lit up? If so, then all working when I just looked.
They just fixed them. But that's why we have screenshots. So web cam is a weak point of this scam.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 04, 2016, 03:05:57 am
You bet me to it ataradov.
I was going to say that they definitely were not working an hour ago.
Have a look at the screen shot by ataradov, two posts after mine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 03:08:27 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)
http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Was it only the centre 12 that are supposed to be lit up? If so, then all working when I just looked.

The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve.  18 of the panels were defective at the outset and have been used as a border. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 04, 2016, 03:09:45 am
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve.  18 of the panels were defective at the outset.
Are they actual panels? I though it was a different color concrete.

This makes human behavior even more interesting, because most of the people stand next to the lit area, but apparently don't mind stepping on the same type of material without LEDs turned on.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 03:11:51 am
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve.  18 of the panels were defective at the outset.
Are they actual panels? I though it was a different color concrete.

This makes human behavior even more interesting, because most of the people stand next to the lit area, but apparently don't mind stepping on the same type of material without LEDs turned on.

Yes.  The black hexagons are actual panels, but were defective and have had the leads completely cut off. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on October 04, 2016, 03:17:38 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Yup. Those panels are dropping like flies.

It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.

Not that this will have any effect on the stream of grant money...

So far, at a min, $4million usd funding.... in cash ($100k in SBIR I, $750k in SBIR II, $750k in SBIR IIB, $2,274k from indigogo https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/355949 (https://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/355949) )
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rsjsouza on October 04, 2016, 03:35:30 am
The MTBF is exceptional...
There appears to be 3 non working panels tonight.
(At least as far as the LEDs are concerned)

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Yup. Those panels are dropping like flies.

It also looks like individual LEDs are starting to fail as well as entire panels. I'm betting it's mostly defunct in a week.

Not that this will have any effect on the stream of grant money...
If they have good PR behind, that is one more reason to secure more money: it will be crucial to increase yield and reliability. Where does it end? At this point nobody knows for sure, but I suspect we are still far from the end of it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 04, 2016, 06:08:57 am
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd.   They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.  I don't know how smart it is to have them be laid on sand... with the frost heave etc these things are going to get wrecked!   

I still don't get why they went with a hexagonal design, a square or rectangular design would have been better, if the hexagonal design was for better strength when they are interlocked, you could simply install rectangle ones like bricks.   

Looking at the cells in there I don't imagine there is more than 30w per tile of solar.  The only way I see these viable is for indoor applications or perhaps residential settings, like building a walkway or deck out of them, could make for a neat outdoor lighting display for parties and stuff I suppose.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 06:41:17 am
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve.  18 of the panels were defective at the outset and have been used as a border.

Wow, what a screwup.
I assume it was some sort of system issue though rather than 18 panels out of the 30 were delivered faulty?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 04, 2016, 06:43:43 am
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd.   They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.

They are supposed to be their latest SR3 panels:
http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3)
But yeah, look too flimsy to be used as road tiles. Their original ones were much thicker and were bolted down to a concrete slab.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: andtfoot on October 04, 2016, 06:46:46 am
The only panels that have ever worked are the center twelve.  18 of the panels were defective at the outset and have been used as a border.

Wow, what a screwup.
I assume it was some sort of system issue though rather than 18 panels out of the 30 were delivered faulty?
A panel issue seems more likely given the leads were intentionally cut off at the panels (as opposed to being wired in anyway for the system to fixed later).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Towger on October 04, 2016, 09:31:09 am


IMHO it is time politicians should pass a math and physics test before being allowed to become part of the government.

It would make no difference.  The most common former occupation for irish politicians is a teacher.

Some companies business is getting government grants in the name of research or charity services etc.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on October 04, 2016, 10:31:57 am
Hold the presses!
There is a film coming:
http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/ (http://www.solarroadwaysfilm.com/)

Guess the plot  ::)
Maybe you will be featured... who's the best actor for a villain with an Australian accent?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 11:47:53 am
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd.   They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.

They are supposed to be their latest SR3 panels:
http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3)
But yeah, look too flimsy to be used as road tiles. Their original ones were much thicker and were bolted down to a concrete slab.

The issue that damaged the tiles occured in the vacuum curing oven. Apparently, the PCBs were delaminated due to the internal forces during curing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on October 04, 2016, 12:07:27 pm
And how long did it take them to install these tiles?  Round my way, the road and pavement (sidewalk for the US types... ;-) are thrown together in the shortest amount of time possible, no way is there time to fix complex electronics or route wires and install control boxes.  And increasingly, the pavements are being cut up and relaid to allow more and more network/power infrastructure to go in underneath them.  Adding more expense to that process would also be economic suicide...

And of course, the next big thing in the automotive world in peer2peer networks between road vehicles, meaning smart road surfaces with configurable signage is obsolete before it's even installed!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 04, 2016, 12:22:32 pm
 Now that brings up an interesting point. Here in the US, this likely wouldn't be a problem since they already like to drag out road work projects as long as possible. Back in my youth, I did some road construction work (for a private company - I mostly was working with my neighbor, who owned a trucking company, but he occasionally helped out his father, who owned a construction company, so I got to experience such wonderful things as spraying hot tar on a day when it was 95F and 80% humidity - there wasn't a better motivator for studying hard so I could get accepted at a good university) and if we as a private company ever took as long as these government jobs, the company would have been out of business for lack of work. No one would hire us if we worked that slowly. For example, they spent TWO YEARS on a 2 mile stretch of 4 lane road here, and all that got accomplished was some cracked sections of concrete were replaced - they whole road never got resurfaced, and now after one winter freeze/thaw cycle, it's as bad as it was BEFORE they "fixed" it.
 Which is another point - I don't think they care if these solar roadway blocks last 5 or 10 years. They'll make a bundle, at taxpayer expense, replacing defective ones every year. It's public money, it's effectively endless to these morons. When the first private company paves their parking lot with these things, using their own money, not taxpayer dollars, then maybe we'll see. But I don't see too many lining up to foolishly waste their money when for less cost they can cover the roof of their building AND get better power output AND not have to worry about what happens in their parking lot. Then the "green" politicians turn around and say see, the government MUST fund this stuff because no one will invest. Yes, because no one wants to throw away money on bullshit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 04, 2016, 12:36:04 pm
Now that brings up an interesting point. Here in the US, this likely wouldn't be a problem since they already like to drag out road work projects as long as possible. Back in my youth, I did some road construction work (for a private company - I mostly was working with my neighbor, who owned a trucking company, but he occasionally helped out his father, who owned a construction company, so I got to experience such wonderful things as spraying hot tar on a day when it was 95F and 80% humidity - there wasn't a better motivator for studying hard so I could get accepted at a good university) and if we as a private company ever took as long as these government jobs, the company would have been out of business for lack of work. No one would hire us if we worked that slowly. For example, they spent TWO YEARS on a 2 mile stretch of 4 lane road here, and all that got accomplished was some cracked sections of concrete were replaced - they whole road never got resurfaced, and now after one winter freeze/thaw cycle, it's as bad as it was BEFORE they "fixed" it.
 Which is another point - I don't think they care if these solar roadway blocks last 5 or 10 years. They'll make a bundle, at taxpayer expense, replacing defective ones every year. It's public money, it's effectively endless to these morons. When the first private company paves their parking lot with these things, using their own money, not taxpayer dollars, then maybe we'll see. But I don't see too many lining up to foolishly waste their money when for less cost they can cover the roof of their building AND get better power output AND not have to worry about what happens in their parking lot. Then the "green" politicians turn around and say see, the government MUST fund this stuff because no one will invest. Yes, because no one wants to throw away money on bullshit.
Agree with most of what you say, all except the last bit. I think they got a lot of support from Crowdfunding too.  So it seems lots of people want to throw money away on bullshit.
Remember also uBeam and some of the other crowd funding cons.
I'm no psychologist but it seems we humans just see what we want to see and disregard the rest.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 04, 2016, 02:33:48 pm
The forum just got linked to from the comments on a slashdot article:

http://m.slashdot.org/story/317007 (http://m.slashdot.org/story/317007)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 12:46:10 am
Please just drive around the pole and onto the tiles  ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/wNdQB6D.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 05, 2016, 01:40:09 am
I'm no psychologist but it seems we humans just see what we want to see and disregard the rest.
Is that called confirmation bias? Whatever it is called it is as prevalent here as it is anywhere.

Ah yes - the ancient wisdom from the dawn of time (1960's pop music):

Quote
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 05, 2016, 03:59:42 am
Please just drive around the pole and onto the tiles  ;D

Oh, I'm pretty sure that if I were there, I would have done that already...  Perhaps with the Dakota or maybe my 1-ton van, especially if I had the tire chains on it at the time:

(http://i.imgur.com/FaibRz0.jpg])

LOL..  I suppose that would be some interesting video...  :)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 04:42:50 am
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation.  It will be totally counterproductive at this point.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 05, 2016, 04:49:49 am
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation.  It will be totally counterproductive at this point.
Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on October 05, 2016, 05:02:32 am
It's neat to see "the real thing" despite this whole idea being absurd.   They are also much thinner and look kinda "cheap" than I expected.

They are supposed to be their latest SR3 panels:
http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3 (http://www.solarroadways.com/Home/SR3)
But yeah, look too flimsy to be used as road tiles. Their original ones were much thicker and were bolted down to a concrete slab.

Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.


In this previously posted link http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-3 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-3)
under "Solar Roadways Installation" it says walkable/bike-able surface

In the link to the SR3 posted by Dave it doesn't mention what the new tiles are good for, only that they are now cheaper to make and have more colourful LEDs :palm:

Me thinks they're seeing the new and probably more feasible market of disco tiles :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AlfBaz on October 05, 2016, 05:06:05 am
(https://mikesquestforsuccess.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/saturdaynightfever_300x298.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 05:13:05 am
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation.  It will be totally counterproductive at this point.
Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.

As with every one of these types of projects, the goal posts were quietly moved to "electric disco sidewalk" while retaining the name "Solar Roadways."
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on October 05, 2016, 05:28:17 am
It may be amusing to talk about, but I do hope no one considers or acts upon vandalizing the installation.  It will be totally counterproductive at this point.
Why would simply driving a lightweight vehicle over the tiles be vandalism? Its supposed to be a demo of a roadway, not a pedestrian pathway.

As with every one of these types of projects, the goal posts were quietly moved to "electric disco sidewalk" while retaining the name "Solar Roadways."

Some local politician put his cock-on-the-block over this one so you can be assured it will be a roaring success and 'the future of roadways and renewable energy' will be spun to death by PR and media no matter what happens. Technical absurdities are easily brushed aside with simple meaningless cliches.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 05, 2016, 05:29:15 am
And here is a solution for boosting energy output at night! :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 05, 2016, 06:40:03 am
The next logical phase of solar roadways would be to require all vehicles have solar panels on the roof and bonnet and downward shining LEDS along the bottom of the vehicle, so that the panels still produce electricity even when covered by a vehicle.

Excluding scientific, economic, aesthetic and practical concerns, it is a perfect solution.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 07:44:35 am
LOL!
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 05, 2016, 08:06:25 am
Quote
LOL! Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
its the peter brock polariser of our time, its just art. Installation art  or a public play thing
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 08:08:14 am
Here's another thing I don't think anybody has mentioned yet:

How much traffic stoppage will these things cause?

I'm inventing numbers, but .... I can easily imagine that (eg.) one of these panels will get smashed every day for every 10 miles of road. You're driving trucks on glass.

When one breaks you'll have a glass-filled pothole where the panel used to be. You simply can't have that on a high speed motorway/highway. You need to shut down (at least) one lane of the road immediately and it needs to be fixed ASAP.

Even with a lot of F1-pit-crew style of training it will take a while for a repair crew to set up all the mandatory traffic cones, stop the traffic, change the panel, etc. I'd say twenty minutes at least with at least two traffic lanes closed. We all know that "F1-pit-crew" speeds aren't going to happen so call it half an hour or more to replace a panel.

So:
a) Every long stretch of solar road would probably have a lane closed at any given time.
b) The entire road will need to be closed to traffic for half an hour or more every day to fix broken panels.
b) All those panel replacement crews will be very expensive. How many crews would you need on standby for a major city at rush hour?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 08:15:28 am
LOL!
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1

Kids today. Don't they teach them anything at school? :palm:

Whacking it with a skateboard won't work, you need something pointy and hit it in the corner.


Anybody want to bet on how long it will take for security guards to appear? I'm surprised it didn't have them since day one.


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 08:20:35 am
Some guy just came along and opened up the grey control box. He pulled out a PC/keyboard/screen and is doing some hacking.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260425;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 08:34:21 am
Now he's pulled out some sort of sensor on a wire and he's waving it around over the floor trying to get a "reading". It doesn't look like it's working too well.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260431;image)

Move the PC down to floor level and try again...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260433;image)

Still no good! Move the PC closer to the center.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260437;image)

And try it there...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260435;image)

Now walk around for five minutes shaking your head with a "this makes no sense" look on your face.

....


Then he went back to his car, a woman got out to stand guard over the PC, and he's driven off somewhere.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260443;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 08:46:44 am
Some guy just came along and opened up the grey control box. He pulled a PC/keyboard/screen out and is doing some hacking.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260425;image)

That is the owner of Solar Roadways, Scott Brusaw.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on October 05, 2016, 08:50:08 am
Quote
And here is a solution for boosting energy output at night! :)
That's called recycling, duh!  ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:03:44 am
Comedy gold!

Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it, with hacker guy sat in his car a few meters away and the PC still on the floor.

I didn't capture the moment of glory but it was funny as hell. I hope somebody was recording it.  :-DD :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260445;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 05, 2016, 09:12:00 am
LOL.
Its 2am in Sandpoint.
Do they really think they can get away with a quick fix while the world is watching on a webcam...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:13:26 am
Now he's gone away and it looks like he switched four of the panels off

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260448;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:13:48 am
As with every one of these types of projects, the goal posts were quietly moved to "electric disco sidewalk" while retaining the name "Solar Roadways."

They can't pivot the product and change the name or in any way show they are giving up on the road solution, the funding and grants would dry up quicker than a dead dingo's donger.
They can keep  :horse: for a long time to come I suspect.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bktemp on October 05, 2016, 09:14:12 am
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it, with hacker guy sat in his car and the PC still on the floor.

I didn't capture the moment of glory but I promise it was funny as hell. I hope if somebody is recording this.  :-DD :-DD
That was funny, here 3 more screenshots when the guy jumped.

The repair attempt wasn't sucessful: At the end he simply disabled 4 segments.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:15:15 am
Comedy gold!
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it, with hacker guy sat in his car a few meters away and the PC still on the floor.
I didn't capture the moment of glory but it was funny as hell. I hope somebody was recording it.  :-DD :-DD
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260445;image)

Someone needs to record this 24/7!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:18:06 am
Some guy just ran in out of nowhere and started jumping up and down on the road trying to smash it

I didn't capture the moment of glory but I promise it was funny as hell. I hope somebody is recording this.  :-DD :-DD
That was funny, here 3 more screenshots when the guy jumped.


You got him!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260450;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:21:42 am
Are we taking bets on how long it takes for the vandals to get organized and come back with proper glass-breaking tools?

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:22:23 am
4 panels still down:

(http://i.imgur.com/rVTV9dI.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: kalleboo on October 05, 2016, 09:27:27 am
I love how he brought a full tower PC and monitor. Couldn't spend any of that cash on a laptop?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:32:53 am
4 panels still down:

"Hacker guy" (Scott Brusaw) just disabled a few of them when he had his PC hooked up to the array.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 05, 2016, 09:33:29 am
its a 2016 Dance Portal to a 1977 Disco  but you must be wearing flare jeans & Playing Saturday Night Fever by the Bee Gees.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:34:00 am
I love how he brought a full tower PC and monitor. Couldn't spend any of that cash on a laptop?

They spent it all on big boys toys:

(http://i.imgur.com/8dU1fu0.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/I5WEXID.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:35:29 am
I love how he brought a full tower PC and monitor. Couldn't spend any of that cash on a laptop?
Maybe it has a special interface card in it or something.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:37:47 am
its a 2016 Dance Portal to a 1977 Disco  but you must be wearing flare jeans & Playing Saturday Night Fever by the Bee Gees.

Who'll get organized first, the flash-mob dancers or the vandals?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:38:07 am
Some guy just came along and opened up the grey control box. He pulled a PC/keyboard/screen out and is doing some hacking.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260425;image)

That is the owner of Solar Roadways, Scott Brusaw.

I wonder if he's got one tab open with this thread?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:39:22 am
Who'll get organized first, the flash-mob dancers or the vandals?  :popcorn:

I recon if I did a video there would be enough viewers near enough to do flash mob  ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on October 05, 2016, 09:41:33 am
I didn't capture the moment of glory but it was funny as hell. I hope somebody was recording it.  :-DD :-DD

Damn it! I've been recording footage (getting the MP4 frames direct off the server, none of this screen-grab rubbish!), but the freakin' webcam feed got busted partway through today and I stopped recording (out of the kindness of my heart?!) to prevent DDOSing the webcam provider. I apologise, I shall not make that mistake again.

I do, however, have footage of the "repair" (from 3 broken panels --> working, looks like they basically turned it off and on again).

I have footage from 2016-10-03 19:10:00 thru 2016-10-04 19:25:00, and have started recording again now commencing 2016-10-05 02:38:00. Feel free to send requests my way!

EDIT: Part of the reason that the stream jumps around is that the webcam footage is actually in slowmo (0.64x*) -- compare your local computer clock to the timestamp in the video when you refresh (it syncs up nicely), and then look again in ten minutes. The clock in the video will have fallen just over 3 minutes behind, and the discrepancy only continues to adds up over time. Odd.

* Camera is generating 31 fps, but the stream is tagged to run at 20 fps, so it falls behind.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 09:55:47 am
OK, conspiracy theory time:

Before Hacker Guy's visit, all the panels were "working" (lit up).

Question: Why did he switch four of them off?

Maybe he was looking at the wattage logs of the day and those four panels were below par. He switched them off so he can claim they're 'broken' and raise the overall average wattage being produced.

I wonder if the "sensor" he was waving around is some sort of UV light that gives him feedback on the panel's efficiency. He could have been looking at output readings on screen when he was messing around with it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260466;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 10:11:03 am
Who'll get organized first, the flash-mob dancers or the vandals?  :popcorn:

I recon if I did a video there would be enough viewers near enough to do flash mob  ;D

We could organize a bunch of people in white coats poking at the tiles with multimeters and shaking their heads.

Then hold up some signs with formulas on them and a big "Bullshit!" written underneath.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 10:13:18 am
I thought a big thing with these tiles was the ability to have them communicate and generate large scale pattern etc. But the animation on them seems to be totally independent per tile.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 11:03:01 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260468;image)
If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...

It helps to believe:
(http://i.imgur.com/a8QTQdI.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 11:08:56 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260471;image)

If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 11:10:11 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260468;image)
If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...
It helps to believe:

This guy doesn't mess around. He's hitting those government types hard on every front.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: kalleboo on October 05, 2016, 11:49:52 am
If they just hadn't plastered a huge flag and SOLAR FREAKIN ROADWAYS on the wall, they may have been able to afford a netbook...


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260471;image)

If you want an idea of Scott's personality type, it's right there...

The huge flag reminds of of that "True Americans" (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/msg1040218/#msg1040218) post. Wait... huge flag... true americans... was that a sockpuppet account?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2016, 11:51:48 am
LOL!
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 11:53:54 am
Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.

The problem is kids don't mind being morons, nor being called that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 12:02:41 pm
LOL!
Some kids trying to beat up the panels at night!
https://twitter.com/ytgadgetaddict/status/783561463021436930/video/1
Some parenting needs to be done. I always tell my kids that breaking stuff is what utter morons do.

Have you seen "Jackass"? It was very popular.

I hope somebody has a recording of today's attack. That guy didn't wander over to check out the pretty lights or anything like that. He literally ran into view just to jump on them as hard as he could. The only thing going through his mind was "I'm gonna smash this!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2016, 12:04:38 pm
You'd need to put it into the right words ofcourse depending on the target audience  >:D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 12:12:15 pm
I hope somebody has a recording of today's attack. That guy didn't wander over to check out the pretty lights or anything like that. He literally ran into view just to jump on them as hard as he could. The only thing going through his mind was "I'm gonna smash this!"

Check my link above, someone on twitter captured video of teens trying to smash it with a skateboard.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: abaxas on October 05, 2016, 01:35:29 pm
Who cares. Cool but useless idea that reminds me of this....

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/insert_main_wide_image/public/untitled-2_58.jpg?itok=iFeNNcY2)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hans on October 05, 2016, 04:30:34 pm
I have set up a live stream mirror that basically transcodes to Youtube for archival purposes :popcorn:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be)

I believe you can watch up to 4 hours back in history on the live video. But as far as I can now see, the stream isn't very stable. Dunno why really, probably some issue with my ffmpeg params. It is what it is for now.

Maybe we'll see them arrive to "repair" or "diagnose" some panels if there really happened something last night.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: firewalker on October 05, 2016, 04:48:47 pm
The leds are not visible during daylight. Surprise surprise! 

Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 05, 2016, 04:51:10 pm
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 05:00:24 pm
I thought a big thing with these tiles was the ability to have them communicate and generate large scale pattern etc. But the animation on them seems to be totally independent per tile.

Yes. As near as I can discern, the only smarts in the system are in the uC in each tile. When all are powered up at the same time, they all have the same pattern. Then either by accident or intent, the clocks seem to drift and one gets the seemingly random display of light patterns.

The working tiles have only two wires. Maybe they are sending data on top of that line, but I doubt it.  Each panel has eight terminals each for a reason.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 05:03:47 pm
The leds are not visible during daylight. Surprise surprise! 

Well, it's just a prototype... right?

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: firewalker on October 05, 2016, 05:40:44 pm
Right!!!


Alexander.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 05, 2016, 06:26:12 pm
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.

No, I think that is highly unlikely.  The glass will be a lot stronger than that.  There are many glass floors on skyscraper towers, etc. and they don't break...  It is a question of when you get road debris, gravel, etc and then drive over it with a 5-ton (or even heavier) truck, do they hold up?  What about a rock or other debris falling from a truck?  Can they take the kind of constant pounding that a road (or even a pathway) get on a daily basis? 

I think they would scuff and become rather opaque quite quickly even if they don't often shatter in real use.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: f4eru on October 05, 2016, 07:56:20 pm
(http://cityofsandpoint.com/Home/ShowImage?id=2437&t=636107607495570000)
Boah ! I love this slide :)
Solar roadways will soon be everywhere !
After the playground, the patio, the surrounding of the pool, they will equip a Saturday night fever sports court !

Were will it stop ? At the airport ? The AIRPORT  :)))))
I will not take a plane that has to land or take off on a glass runway.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 05, 2016, 08:58:30 pm
I think there must be some sort of data display in the green box. People keep on stopping to look at it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260554;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 09:11:30 pm
I think there must be some sort of data display in the green box. People keep on stopping to look at it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260554;image)

That is the kiosk. It has a slide show that is duplicated on the City of Sandpoint website.  It's simply an all in one PC in a box. No interactivity.

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Scroll down to the "virtual kiosk."  They are identical.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260559;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:51:50 pm
My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.

No, I think that is highly unlikely.  The glass will be a lot stronger than that.  There are many glass floors on skyscraper towers, etc. and they don't break...  It is a question of when you get road debris, gravel, etc and then drive over it with a 5-ton (or even heavier) truck, do they hold up?  What about a rock or other debris falling from a truck?  Can they take the kind of constant pounding that a road (or even a pathway) get on a daily basis? 

I think they would scuff and become rather opaque quite quickly even if they don't often shatter in real use.

And lets not mention silicosis on a mass scale:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:53:58 pm
Were will it stop ? At the airport ? The AIRPORT  :)))))
I will not take a plane that has to land or take off on a glass runway.

Yup, they have seriously wanted to put these on airport runways from day one, because, you know, LED's for landing strips ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nctnico on October 05, 2016, 09:56:25 pm
Is that green box made from wood? Why didn't they use a proper monitor for outside use?  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 05, 2016, 09:57:38 pm
I have set up a live stream mirror that basically transcodes to Youtube for archival purposes :popcorn:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH1MQFyOnos&feature=youtu.be)


 :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 05, 2016, 10:16:17 pm
Is that green box made from wood? Why didn't they use a proper monitor for outside use?  :palm:

No it's all metal. Suitable for outdoor use - just ugly IMO. I have no idea why the cabinet was not placed near the building.

Note: there is no kW-h display at the kiosk at this time. The net meter is located inside the adjacent building.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: lpaseen on October 06, 2016, 02:16:17 am
I think there must be some sort of data display in the green box. People keep on stopping to look at it.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260554;image)

That is the kiosk. It has a slide show that is duplicated on the City of Sandpoint website.  It's simply an all in one PC in a box. No interactivity.

http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-7)

Scroll down to the "virtual kiosk."  They are identical.

And on one of those slides it states that you can go to the url "solarroadways dot com slash pilots"  "and look at the energy generation from this site right now", and that url truly seems to reflect the power generated - missing (and adding the url to this forum causes gateway502 error).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 06, 2016, 02:39:38 am
I hope somebody has a recording of today's attack. That guy didn't wander over to check out the pretty lights or anything like that. He literally ran into view just to jump on them as hard as he could. The only thing going through his mind was "I'm gonna smash this!"

Check my link above, someone on twitter captured video of teens trying to smash it with a skateboard.

While such actions are worthy of a facepalm response - is anyone really surprised?


My bet as to what might break a panel is a somewhat above average 9 even for the USA) woman, wearing a nice fashionable pair of narrow point stiletto heels and who walks across the panels while yakking on the phone. My bet is the heels will crack the glass on an edge, and the panel will shatter.

No, I think that is highly unlikely.  The glass will be a lot stronger than that.  There are many glass floors on skyscraper towers, etc. and they don't break...  It is a question of when you get road debris, gravel, etc and then drive over it with a 5-ton (or even heavier) truck, do they hold up?  What about a rock or other debris falling from a truck?  Can they take the kind of constant pounding that a road (or even a pathway) get on a daily basis? 

I think they would scuff and become rather opaque quite quickly even if they don't often shatter in real use.

It is interesting to speculate about what might cause a catastrophic failure.... but I am waiting for some absurd and/or obscure cause that is going to sit the manufacturer back in their chairs thinking  :wtf:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Habropoda on October 06, 2016, 03:00:45 am
Maybe it is buried somewhere in this thread, but have they addressed the kryptonite of super strong tempered glass?  You can jump on it all day or pound it with a fire extinguisher and it won't break, but punch it with an automatic center punch, tap it with one of those car safety hammers or fling a broken piece of spark plug ceramic against it and it flies into a million pieces.  I imagine a car with studded tires would leave behind a ribbon of glass sand.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 06, 2016, 04:19:39 am
Here is the current state of this abomination.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260586;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 06, 2016, 04:57:42 am
It's all down to:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260589;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2016, 05:13:16 am
Here is the current state of this abomination.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260586;image)

Yep, half another tile down, just fixed on several RED LED's on max brightness?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 06, 2016, 06:13:35 am
its a 2016 Dance Portal to a 1977 Disco  but you must be wearing flare jeans & Playing Saturday Night Fever by the Bee Gees.
 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2016, 06:13:51 am
Yep, half another tile down, just fixed on several RED LED's on max brightness?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260610;image)

How robust are these things if people can affect the LEDs with their feet? I can't imagine trucks driving over them all day long.


Gotta say: This is some entertaining viewing. Especially now the "beer can carrying" sector of the public has turned up.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 06, 2016, 06:18:29 am
 :popcorn: more
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mexakin on October 06, 2016, 09:42:40 am
just got linked to something very similar in croatia, zadar :)
I havent heard of this before, but those guys did the same as the solar hobbiyst from blinking roadways :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc)

it begins at Minute 1 to show how this works.

Looks slightly advanced in comparison to the roadways, oh but yes I forgot, those modules at zadar are not in the road... :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on October 06, 2016, 09:58:33 am
Yep, half another tile down, just fixed on several RED LED's on max brightness?

I had a look back over my recording, and unsurprisingly, it's impossible to tell exactly when this happened because it's impossible to see through the reflections during the day. So instead, I made a pointless timelapse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZotrgft_LM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZotrgft_LM)

I'll grab a recording of the failures/repair-by-stampings that have occurred since, and post them shortly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on October 06, 2016, 10:14:47 am
just got linked to something very similar in croatia, zadar :)
I havent heard of this before, but those guys did the same as the solar hobbiyst from blinking roadways :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc)

it begins at Minute 1 to show how this works.

Looks slightly advanced in comparison to the roadways, oh but yes I forgot, those modules at zadar are not in the road... :)

(http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2011/09/Solar-installation-by-Been-Around.jpg)

Been operating since at least 2011
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 06, 2016, 10:33:52 am
just got linked to something very similar in croatia, zadar :)
I havent heard of this before, but those guys did the same as the solar hobbiyst from blinking roadways :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBhk5KFwLVc)

it begins at Minute 1 to show how this works.

Looks slightly advanced in comparison to the roadways, oh but yes I forgot, those modules at zadar are not in the road... :)
I don't think Zadar is in any way comparable to the solar roadway work. Zadar is an artwork. It has no need to meet economic or efficiency goals. If the group of solar roadway tiles installed so far were installed as an artwork, it would probably succeed as a fun light display. However, it isn't supposed to be an artwork. Its supposed to be a scalable, affordable, futuristic road + energy source.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on October 06, 2016, 11:11:57 am
As promised, the "repair" by a member of the public, as spotted by Fungus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw)

If you're wondering why it doesn't look slow-mo like the actual webcam feed (which actually is in 0.65x slowmo!), I've sped the video above up to compensate. So what you're seeing is actually real-time...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mexakin on October 06, 2016, 11:37:54 am
i know that one is an artwork and the other is supposed to be something else..

But lets be honest, does anyone in here believe that first public test is anything else, than a road heater with lightning?

Maybe they did put some inverters in there to put the little solarpower outpit into the grid, since there are a lot of prebuild options, but other than that...

No innovations seen here.. never was never will be
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: kalleboo on October 06, 2016, 11:41:05 am
These guys should have bought their LED panels from the that Jaycar warehouse sale - those had fewer broken lights than these do
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2016, 12:12:08 pm
As promised, the "repair" by a member of the public, as spotted by Fungus:

Yep, that's the one!  :-+

Next time I see something funny I'll remember to preserve the timestamp instead of cropping it out.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 06, 2016, 02:11:22 pm
As promised, the "repair" by a member of the public, as spotted by Fungus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw)

 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: w_leds on October 06, 2016, 02:30:41 pm
you will have a link that runs in France; youtube dailymotion LiveStream or other, I want having fun with you ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 06, 2016, 03:13:36 pm
But lets be honest, does anyone in here believe that first public test is anything else, than a road heater with lightning?
It is fine when first test don't have the efficiency of the final product, but first samples should not self destruct on a regular basis under normal use. This stuff is possible to figure out in a private test - just put this BS in front of the office entrance and see how they hold up over time. But that does not achieve main goal - scamming public out of money.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 06, 2016, 08:14:12 pm
Quote
But lets be honest, does anyone in here believe that first public test is anything else, than a road heater with lightning?
:clap: its outside the Sandpoint public toilets.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 06, 2016, 08:24:49 pm
:clap: its outside the Sandpoint public toilets.

I saw a lot of people going in and out of there, spending a couple of minutes inside. I suspected it was a toilet but I wasn't sure.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 07:02:10 am
Scott Brusaw is there right now... 

They just reset the panels at midnight local time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 07, 2016, 07:53:06 am
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo  :--

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on October 07, 2016, 08:21:32 am
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo  :--

When he rebooted the panels at midnight*, they were in lock-step for a little while, but then started falling out of sync. So they're actually individually going through the same fixed loop/routine, but evidently their clocks aren't synced. In other words, yes, it's about the lamest possible implementation, no randomisation, nor any communication between panels at all (except for cutting power :P)...

* I'll post a video at some point, maybe once I have a bit more interesting content
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 09:16:47 am
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo  :--

Yeah, or something like example lane markers, etc!

A VERY pitiful LED lightshow!!  (Especially since they keep sticking and malfunctioning and breaking altogether!)

When he rebooted the panels at midnight*, they were in lock-step for a little while, but then started falling out of sync. So they're actually individually going through the same fixed loop/routine, but evidently their clocks aren't synced. In other words, yes, it's about the lamest possible implementation, no randomisation, nor any communication between panels at all (except for cutting power :P)...

Yeah, that is pretty sad.  They obviously don't even seem to have any programming ability on them right now, just the one default scrolling demo, although the webpage says it is supposedly in the works to even have the demo adjustable by the public from the little kiosk... eventually

Also, if it is supposedly so easy to replace tiles for road surface maintenance/repair, etc. why haven't they gone down and popped out the defective tiles and replaced them?  :P 

I guess they only have 8 (semi-)working tiles after all their wasted money and "hard work" thus far.   :-DD

What a farce!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Towger on October 07, 2016, 09:33:49 am
Mike could get a well paying consultancy gig from them.  This is obviously more of an artwork than a roadway or foot path.  It has the appearance of their first attempt to actually produce a tile.  With  not even basic reliability testing for a few days done at their factory/warehouse.

I can't help wondering why they have cut off all the extra wires to each tile, left as is they will wick in water to the electronics.  Are the extra wires for the led control data!  Only single RGB colour per tile, where are road markings! individually addressable leds are not rocket science these days.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 10:44:19 am
Why the lame arse full colour patterns on the panels?
Why can't they have "Solar Roadways" scrolling or something?
It's not even a half impressive LED demo  :--

Half the LEDs have already died so it might not be the worst possible choice.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 11:57:23 am
It's raining. I wonder if the electrics are waterproof.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 07, 2016, 12:22:51 pm
 In this case, since it's a rest stop, they use the LEDs to point the direction to the men's and lady's or something. You know, use it as some sort of indication like they want to do for an actual roadway.
 But random flashy colored blinken lights are MUCH more attractive to the general public. The sheep who pay their taxes and see their money go into things too often don't care about such useful stuff like power output, just "hey, it looks cool! So worth it!"

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 12:57:07 pm
These are the third generation of solar tiles. As far as reasons for the light patterns, I think they did what they did simply because trying to replicate standard road markings would not have worked at all.

The wires entry points appeared to be well sealed with silicone, so we'll see if water intrusion is an issue.

What's interesting is that 100% of the panels will have to be replaced at this point in order to have a functional system that meets the solar road definition. What is installed represents all of the assembled PCBs Solar Roadways has, so more will need to be ordered. I'm guessing at such low volume that each tile must be around $500 each in actual costs. The glass is custom made and CNC milled at SR's facility.

So, somebody is likely going to go another $15K out of pocket if this system is going to even remotely be functional. Winter is coming rapidly and there is the promise of a "snow and ice free" surface to meet. Sandpoint is a winter resort destination, so expect the system to get a lot of visibility.

And with likely lead times running at least 6-8 weeks, the system will likely be repaired no sooner than Christmas time.

Someone needs to keep a record of the midnight service calls.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 03:06:26 pm
What's interesting is that 100% of the panels will have to be replaced at this point in order to have a functional system that meets the solar road definition. What is installed represents all of the assembled PCBs Solar Roadways has, so more will need to be ordered. I'm guessing at such low volume that each tile must be around $500 each in actual costs. The glass is custom made and CNC milled at SR's facility.

So, somebody is likely going to go another $15K out of pocket if this system is going to even remotely be functional. Winter is coming rapidly and there is the promise of a "snow and ice free" surface to meet. Sandpoint is a winter resort destination, so expect the system to get a lot of visibility.

Ummmm... How much money have they scammed people out if so far?  $2.2 Million?  or was it $3.5 Million?  Does anyone know a running total of how much money they've raised for this BS?  :bullshit: Regardless, $15,000 is chump change compared to what they have raised thus far and if they have squandered all of it already, I daresay it has been a colossal waste of money if they can't even produce a few prototype panels. 

They obviousy certainly weren't really even ready to make this a public demonstration!  :palm:

Quote
And with likely lead times running at least 6-8 weeks, the system will likely be repaired no sooner than Christmas time.

Did they really only make 30 sets of pieces for their pubic demonstration?!!  And expected them to all work perfectly on the first try?!!  AND not even TEST THEM BEFOREHAND?!!  It's not like this whole thing was just planned last week on a whim!

Well, that would be some disasterously poor planning if their highly publicized first public installation was done without even having enough perts in the pipeline to make the silly thing even semi-functional and remain operational for the public demo! :-DD

How could they possibly be so stupid as to not have... thought this... thing... er...   Oh, wait!!...  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 03:37:33 pm
I got the production quantities straight from SR's people. Scott Brusaw stated essentially the same thing publicly so this isn't insider info.

Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.

I'm not saying the Brusaws are paupers, but there are going to be some tough financial decisions to be made. Even small businesses with healthy cash flow cringe at the amounts that will need to be re-spent to repair this very public demonstration.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 07, 2016, 04:17:39 pm
Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.
The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.

You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 04:43:18 pm
Millions go quick when you're buying capital equipment to do manufacturing. SR bought a very spendy German mill designed for glass milling as well as a large vacuum chamber for curing the panels. There are a few full-time staff members which burn cash reserves as well.
The solution is - sell this equipment at a discounted price to people who can load it 100% and get their money back. After that find a company that will cut the glass for you. This is a relatively straightforward and cheap process.

You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.

I do not disagree, but that's what's happened/happening.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 05:18:09 pm
You really need to be stupid to buy capital equipment like this. It is like being an electronics startup and buying your own wet etching lines to make PCBs.

I do not disagree, but that's what's happened/happening.

Well, that's precisely my point about the utter insanity and complete waste of money on this farce...

They don't even have a "working" design yet for this completely bogus product that can never work as claimed so they don't know exactly what machinery and equipment they really need to manufacture said "working" design, yet they have wasted a swack of (mostly gullible other peoples') money buying expensive toys when they obviously don't even have a properly working prototype!!!  :palm:

Now, perhaps the tiles are actually generating their small bit of juice from the panels and the only physical problems are with the blinkenlights but it sure doesn't inspire much confidence in the robustness of the design.  :)

It will be very interesting to see if the things even generate enough net power to run the lights let alone the physical impossibility of running heaters to keep them clear of ice and snow.  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 07, 2016, 05:37:47 pm
Mike could get a well paying consultancy gig from them.  This is obviously more of an artwork than a roadway or foot path.  It has the appearance of their first attempt to actually produce a tile.  With  not even basic reliability testing for a few days done at their factory/warehouse.

I can't help wondering why they have cut off all the extra wires to each tile, left as is they will wick in water to the electronics.  Are the extra wires for the led control data!  Only single RGB colour per tile, where are road markings! individually addressable leds are not rocket science these days.

I doubt it, Mike has both higher standards for what he produces and a lot better ethics than this bunch. He might just put the lot of them in the glass mill and press start after a day.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ivaylo on October 07, 2016, 07:07:26 pm
This sounds kinda viable - https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Not exactly generating electric power, melting snow and what not, but somewhat practical if it works. Doesn't say what it does to the environment over time...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Jeff_Birt on October 07, 2016, 07:22:07 pm
Rule of thumb - all solar/renewable/eco/green/wind/bio fuel/global cooling/global warming/climate change/... is bullshit, all of it. The number one tactic of a bullshit salesman is that 'you have to act now!', 'tomorrow will be too late'. When you try to question anything they say based on science you get the religious zealot argument, 'you must agree with me or you are evil!'

If any of this alternative energy stuff were viable you would not need governments to throw billions of dollars at the companies making it and then spend billions more giving tax breaks to people to buy it. The people who are too poor to blow their money putting solar panels on their own house still have to pay for others to do so.

If global cooling/global warming/climate change had any merit there would be no need for the bullshit salesman tactics, the religious zealot tactics or the even bullshittier (if that is a word) 'the science it settled' tactics. That last on really burns my butt! THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 07:22:36 pm
Not exactly generating electric power, melting snow and what not, but somewhat practical if it works. Doesn't say what it does to the environment over time...

Practical for illuminating a pathway, yes, perhaps.... but this is a discussion about SOLAR FREAKIN' ROADWAYS that generate power and solve all the world's energy and roadway needs with one breakthrough product.  :palm:

Even though it is essentially a side-thought, SR can't even get solar powered illuminated blinkies working let alone generate the actual useful energy that is supposed to be the main purpose!  There are plenty of far, far better ways to light a pathway than SOLAR FREAKIN' ROADWAYS :bullshit:

...
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Well, barring some new and novel way to break (or at least make very bendy,) the fundamental laws of physics, there are some certain things of which we can be sure...  Like the fact that you can't get more energy out of ANY solar panel than actually comes from the sun, so things like melting the snow on a roadway using the power harnessed from the sun using (even 100% efficient, theoretical) solar panels mounted down in the road that the snow is falling on are actually impossible. 

(Again, unless you can find new, undiscovered physics or find a way to somehow turn up Sol's luminosity, for example, but that seems like it might have some unintended consequences beyond melting the bit of snow on the road!  :P )

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 07:38:13 pm
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 07, 2016, 07:53:33 pm
Winter is coming...

 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 07:56:00 pm
Winter is coming...

 :-DD

Ski hill just got its first snow yesterday.  No pressure, guys...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260933;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Jeff_Birt on October 07, 2016, 07:58:10 pm
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.

My main point was NOT global warming. It was that stupid ideas like solar roadways are only even considered because of bullshit salesmen. 'Act now!' and 'The science is settled!' are both bullshit tactics, if you see them used as arguments for any product or idea you can bet it is bullshit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 07, 2016, 08:07:22 pm
THE SCIENCE IS NEVER SETTLED ON ANYTHING!!!!!

Let's not derail this with a global warming debate, please.

My main point was NOT global warming. It was that stupid ideas like solar roadways are only even considered because of bullshit salesmen. 'Act now!' and 'The science is settled!' are both bullshit tactics, if you see them used as arguments for any product or idea you can bet it is bullshit.

Let there be no doubt that Scott Brusaw is a great salesman and marketing genius.  And I mean that with all sincerity. I never would have thought to execute this the way he has, and that it would be so well received. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 07, 2016, 08:12:59 pm
Winter is coming...

I wonder how non-slip they will really remain in the rain and snow?  (They had better be able to melt any slush and snow that falls on them pretty darn fast, which of course is going to burn some serious energy.)  I took a quick look today with them in the rain and figure it will be interesting to see how long it takes before someone slips and falls on them.  I obviously hope nobody gets hurt but people fall all the time on snowy sidewalks.  I've done it myself too many times to count!  I just can't see a glass surface, any glass (or hard plastic) surface, even the very best non-slip glass surface, being less slippery in poor conditions than typical concrete is...  Especially if any layer builds up on them, which is, of course, when concrete becomes a very slippery surface too...

Time will tell!  :)

Let there be no doubt that Scott Brusaw is a great salesman and marketing genius.  And I mean that with all sincerity. I never would have thought to execute this the way he has, and that it would be so well received.

Slick marketing does not a viable product make.  :) 

Cough..  Batteroo... Cough... Cough...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 07, 2016, 11:54:06 pm
bricks and tiles with embedded RGB DMX LED lighting is nothing new.
http://www.made-in-china.com/manufacturers/rgb-led-brick-light.html (http://www.made-in-china.com/manufacturers/rgb-led-brick-light.html)
So is bricks and roof tiles with embedded solar cells.
https://au.pinterest.com/explore/solar-roof-tiles/ (https://au.pinterest.com/explore/solar-roof-tiles/)
but the solar roadways product with a questionable claims of safety and effectiveness of using non flexible geometric glass solar tiles as a road surface. other then Art or sidewalk use.  the durable surface material must be a type of pre-cast Pavers block cobble tiles or large but flexible mat of illuminated granular glass beads with embedded led matrix's . otherwise to stop cracking and failure of the matrix circuits.
but its also the on-going maintenance of thousands of km of embedded RGB DMX LED lighting or solar roadway that is questionable. LOL  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 08, 2016, 04:23:14 am
TBH I was actually expecting more from these, they are actually worse than I expected.  I knew they were generally not viable, but I get the impression these are absolutely not generating any net positive energy at all and not to mention that half of them arn't even working at all.  Their confidence can be dictated by looking at all those AC-DC power supplies they put in that cabinet.   :-DD

I'm also surprised at just how bad the LEDs are, I expected at least that part would have worked right.  I think if all you want to do with these is power the leds, if done right it could very well work strictly off solar and would perhaps be usable in places that get foot traffic only, and that you don't care about in winter.  Basically walking trails and stuff.

I'm sure a snow plow would wreck havoc on these the first few times it passes, until there is a decent hard pack snow layer... of course rendering them useless for most of the year. So even in that application it's not worthwhile.

I'm really trying to think positive about these, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 05:27:44 am
I'm sure a snow plow would wreck havoc on these the first few times it passes

Yep. It doesn't bear thinking about.

Any piece of hard debris that gets on the road will be ground into the panels by passing trucks. I'm sure we've all been behind trucks carrying gravel and seen how much falls out the back.

Any accident, any truck with a loose load could cause tens of millions of $$$ in damage and close an entire road for a week.

nb. This can happen with asphalt roads if there's a big oil/diesel spill but it seems like a glass road with electronics inside will be a lot more frequent and a lot more expensive. Not that Solar Roadways will lose any sleep over that.

I think if all you want to do with these is power the leds, if done right it could very well work strictly off solar and would perhaps be usable in places that get foot traffic only, and that you don't care about in winter.  Basically walking trails and stuff.

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2016, 05:32:16 am
TBH I was actually expecting more from these, they are actually worse than I expected.  I knew they were generally not viable, but I get the impression these are absolutely not generating any net positive energy at all and not to mention that half of them arn't even working at all.  Their confidence can be dictated by looking at all those AC-DC power supplies they put in that cabinet.   :-DD

You'd think that the #1 requirement for demonstrating solar roadways would be the net power it generates?
Why isn't there a big net kWh display?
This has to be deliberate, just like the lack of any data on their website after all these years.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 08, 2016, 06:17:13 am
You'd think that the #1 requirement for demonstrating solar roadways would be the net power it generates?
Why isn't there a big net kWh display?
This has to be deliberate, just like the lack of any data on their website after all these years.

Dave,

I will be addressing this next week.  Supposedly, the system is connected via a net meter, the data from which was *supposed* to be displayed live on the city website. 

As of right now, Solar Roadways continues to tweet nonsense and links to articles about how this system generates power, so I hope they're ready to prove it. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: SeanB on October 08, 2016, 06:31:03 am
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow. If you use grid power to do so then you would have had a simple resistive mat in a regular road decades ago instead of a expensive to operate snow plow and the toxic and corrosive salt used on roads.

There are houses with heated driveways, but ask the owner just how much using that option adds to the electric bill for the house, and scale that up for the power required in a typical suburb that you would have to add to the supply calculations, and how much the extra transformers, power controllers and bulk electric power you would use over a typical season. Then ask how much power the solar panels would generate over that winter season.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 08, 2016, 06:34:22 am
The lack of (or incomplete or outright ficticious) test data seems to be a hallmark of bogus ideas like this...

So may projects (especially snazzy-looking-marketing and crowd-funded ones) get boatloads of money thrown at them just based on some pie-in-the-sky idea without any kind of specifications or hard data of any kind by people who fall for a slick sales pitch.  :palm:

A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow.

It can't.

Basic physics prohibits that from being a possibility yet some people have managed to be convinced to believe it is somehow possible.  Essentially the latest incarnation of a perpetual motion machine :palm: but you still can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it, despite what some slick marketing guy tells you.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 08, 2016, 07:51:28 am
A simple question about the roadway melting the snow. Blacktop on a road is a nearly perfect black body absorber ( well, about the best you can get in mass quantity), yet a roadway will still get a snow cover that will not melt with the sunlight, even if you scrape it off with a plow, so how can a solar panel under the road melt the snow. If you use grid power to do so then you would have had a simple resistive mat in a regular road decades ago instead of a expensive to operate snow plow and the toxic and corrosive salt used on roads.

There are houses with heated driveways, but ask the owner just how much using that option adds to the electric bill for the house, and scale that up for the power required in a typical suburb that you would have to add to the supply calculations, and how much the extra transformers, power controllers and bulk electric power you would use over a typical season. Then ask how much power the solar panels would generate over that winter season.

Lol that reminds me, our city spent I don't know how many thousands of dollars for heated steps in front of city hall.   Let's just say that did not really work very well. They still have to have workers go and shovel them every morning.   If anything it probably creates lot of ice as it melts some of the snow, which just turns into ice then after a while there is more ice than the heat can cope with, it probably just ends up being more dangerous.

People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice.   A 1800w heat gun will barely touch the ice in gutters, for example.  I've tried.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 08, 2016, 08:55:56 am
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 11:43:59 am
As of right now, Solar Roadways continues to tweet nonsense and links to articles about how this system generates power, so I hope they're ready to prove it.

The problem is they may be generating some power and gullible people will believe well delivered "it's only a prototype, it will improve" speech.

Remember that it's taxpayer money that's being spent here, not people's own personal money so critical thinking will be turned off. Worse: They might be making a bit on the side so they simply don't care about cost.

It would be easy to come across as the party pooper who doesn't believe strongly enough in old fashioned American values to make this thing work.

Hard facts won't be enough in a debate. No matter what you say it will be easy for them to counter with "it's only a prototype, production panels will be better we just need more funding".

The correct answer will emphasise:
* The panels have already had plenty of funding ($23 million?). This isn't rocket science, solar panels are well understood. This council shouldn't be paying for more R&D based on the poor results shown so far (and they will be poor, guaranteed).

* What is the power output of the panels? Solar Roadways has always ducked that question even though it's the only number that really matters.

* Ask Scott why he turned off four of the panels off at 2:40am on the 5th of October 2016. The LEDs in the panels were clearly working so what was the reason for disabling them? What was the solar output of the four panels he disabled (I'm sure those numbers will be missing from the data he presents, that his numbers will be skewed).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260466;image)

* There's too many unknown risk factors, eg. the long-term durability of the panels Will the boss of Solar Roadways provide a personal garantee? This is untested technology. You believe that payment of any roads constructed using the panels needs to be spread over 12 years with deductions made for every panel that needs to be replaced.

* He claims the panel can be used to show road markings but the LEDs clearly aren't visible in daylight. Will road markings have to be painted on top of the panels? Yes, brighter LEDs exist but can they be powered 24/7 by an ideal solar panel even on cloudy days? If the panels can't even keep themselves illuminated then they're obviously pointless and dangerous. In what way are LED markings better than reliable old paint and overhead signs?

* There needs to be a controlled test of how easy it is to break the panels by driving over small sharp objects before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a controlled test of how the panels will scratch by driving over them (it's glass vs trucks, people!). How will scratching affect the solar output? This needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a controlled test of snow/ice melting by the panels. Ask the boss of Solar Panels how much energy it takes to melt a couple of inches of snow, if he lies then you've got him. Snow/ice melting needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

* There needs to be a lot of controlled tests of braking and cornering on wet glass. Safety cannot be compromised and so far Solar Roadways hasn't provided any data. The council doesn't want to be exposed to expensive lawsuits.

* The stresses on the panels themselves will be huge under emergency braking. Can Solar Roadways show any engineering data to show they won't delaminate or anything bad under long term conditions. This isn't the sort of thing that can be tested by braking a few times on a row of panels, it needs real engineering. The council doesn't want to be exposed to expensive lawsuits.

* Probably lots of other things I didn't think of. The trick is to use the words "risk" and "unknown" a lot. They're good words, much better than saying "I have total proof, dammit!!".  The people you're dealing with don't like other people telling them they're wrong. They know they're smarter then everybody else or they wouldn't have such important jobs!

Remember: You're not against solar roadways, it's a wonderful idea, but a lot more data is needed before releasing funding. There are a long list of things that could make it non-viable even if the power generation works out, which basic physics says is impossible (this is the correct moment to mention "basic math"). Given the very low chance of success, you don't see why the taxpayer should be paying for that data, it's Solar Roadway's job to provide it.

Also think of all the ways these panels could expose the city to lawsuits. Everything from road safety to flying shards of glass. List them in detail.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 11:47:03 am
I just found the live stream. Only 7 or 8 panels left and one of them looks dodgy. How long has it been since they were all working originally?

They were deliberately turned off by the owner of Solar Roadways, for reasons unknown. See picture in previous post.

Even though they were disabled, one of the LEDs refused to give up. This was fixed by a some helpful members of the public.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG__xuaQ5Yw)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 08, 2016, 12:27:41 pm
Somebody should track down the stomper girl and give her a free multimeter for her outstanding efforts, I'd be willing to chip in if required.   :-+

Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.

Slighty different kettle of smelly fish but this whole thing reminds me of the yellow peril monstrosity we had to endure some years ago, it had more moves than a chess game and really belonged in the deepest part of the Yarra river, city councillors who approve this shit should be drowned at birth I say.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2016, 01:07:48 pm
Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.


After all these years they haven't even driven a regular car over them. Only thing they have driven on them is a <1 ton tractor with huge weight distributing wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw)

And where is the solar output data from that big test system?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 08, 2016, 01:19:49 pm
* There needs to be a controlled test of snow/ice melting by the panels. Ask the boss of Solar Panels how much energy it takes to melt a couple of inches of snow, if he lies then you've got him. Snow/ice melting needs to be demonstrated before any funding can be approved.

The problem with Solar Roadways is that this can easily be demonstrated to work. Put enough heat in and snow will melt.
Likewise the solar panels will produce excess power, and so to the LED line markers can be made to work given enough current and optics, and so can the durability be shown with driving some cars on it. But the devil is in the detail of how practical each part is, and that's the problem, none of these things are going to be practical for a multitude of reasons, but that doesn't mean they don't "work".

If SR are sufficiently clever they can milk this funding cow for a long time to come.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 02:09:28 pm
I'm imagining a fully loaded 18-wheeler under full braking, ripping 50 meters/yards of panels out of their housing and shutting down the road for a week.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Jetan on October 08, 2016, 04:03:35 pm
I would so like to sea someone driving from the parking lot on to the tiles. It's so easy to do, but I think no one trust these blinking tiles  :--.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 08, 2016, 04:12:52 pm
What about people hooning around on those nice slippery tiles. Practicing their drifting, etc. How well will they stand up to 700bhp cars doing burnouts and drag racing on them at night?

I wanna see that tractor lift the front wheels using the loader scoop and drive along a bit.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: f4eru on October 08, 2016, 10:21:46 pm
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 09, 2016, 04:56:28 am
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

I'd call that a "Glow-in-the-Dark" roadway.  While it is of limited value, it's a cool effect - and no doubt much, much cheaper.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hans on October 09, 2016, 06:03:19 am
Ultimately it's about the axle weight of a vehicle. I want to see an (overloaded) truck with only 4 or 5 axles pushing down 50+ tons into the road, making an emergency stop at 80-100km/h while the panels are soaking wet :popcorn: This scenario sounds pretty common to me, like a sudden traffic jam caused by bad weather & people that can't drive.

Are they making these panels completely flat or do they have like a a few mm bulge in them? Because looking at the size of the panels standing water could quickly be a real issue. But then I wonder how it feels to drive over such panels, because if the bulge is too dramatic road comfort would be toast.
I can only imagine they should make the panels smaller, rectangular, and perhaps add drainage holes near panel edges or in the panels themselves.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 09, 2016, 06:41:51 am
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

I'd call that a "Glow-in-the-Dark" roadway.  While it is of limited value, it's a cool effect - and no doubt much, much cheaper.

I already posted that.

Yes, it will be much cheaper. And lower maintenance. And will probably work.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ivaylo on October 09, 2016, 06:57:53 am
And I posted it before that :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on October 09, 2016, 07:49:51 am
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD

Many years ago,I read in an "English Electric" company newsletter that the Metropoitan Sewage & Drainage Dept in Perth WA were running EE Diesel engines off Sewage gases to drive pumps,etc,making them independent of the Electricity Mains.

Apparently,they started on Diesel fuel then as soon as they were running,swapped over to Sewage gas.

No,I don't know how it was done,but they were not a company with as great sense of humour,nor was it April! ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 09, 2016, 09:04:59 am
Quote
People underestimate the amount of energy you need to melt snow/ice
use methane gas from Sandpoint's public toilets  :-DD

Many years ago,I read in an "English Electric" company newsletter that the Metropoitan Sewage & Drainage Dept in Perth WA were running EE Diesel engines off Sewage gases to drive pumps,etc,making them independent of the Electricity Mains.

Apparently,they started on Diesel fuel then as soon as they were running,swapped over to Sewage gas.

No,I don't know how it was done,but they were not a company with as great sense of humour,nor was it April! ;D
Diesel engines or gas turbines are run from self generated methane in sewage works all over the world. The major part of a sewage works is dedicated to digesting and removing the content of the water. This results in large amounts of methane. You will see large gas domes in most works, buffering between the gas generation and consumption functions.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 09, 2016, 09:45:18 am
Hey,
Just spotted a working "solar roadway"
https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/07/poland-builds-a-solar-powered-bike-path-that-glows-a-ghostly-blue/

Sounds like a good idea for road line markings.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 11, 2016, 12:28:37 am
So the guy filming the soalr roadways movie posted on twitter kind of responding to jokes about the LED brightness in daylight, and posted this stunning pic:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cubf8dEWIAA1HLg.jpg:large)

Shame:
a) The LED in the middle really aren't all that bright in the sun
and
b) The LEDs fiurther back and off to the side a bit in the background are hardly noticeable  :palm:
and
c) The glare is pretty bad, and I've seen bad reflections on the live feed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 01:03:16 am
Photos taken 5 feet away are of little relevance. What matters are what the markers look like from 50 to 1000 feet away. And as we all know, they will be virtually invisible unless it's just a nuclear hot led. Even road integrated yellow LEDs that are directed towards drivers are unimpressive. We have them here in crosswalks.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 11, 2016, 02:03:14 am
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261719;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 11, 2016, 02:14:58 am
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Yeah, that is ridiculously bad, even for a sidewalk let alone a road!

That's not even close to acceptable in so many ways...  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 11, 2016, 02:21:06 am
From the Sandpoint City budget...
http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766)
Page 14

 :o

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261727;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 03:01:14 am
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261719;image)

There is no rigidity in the joiner plates.  They are simply flat sheet aluminum with rivnuts on one side and a screw through the other.  It was inevitable that they would bend as soon as the panels shifted under load. 

There is a sand-like texture on the tiles.  It is quite a good non-skid surface, at least when new.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 11, 2016, 03:37:26 am
There is no rigidity in the joiner plates.  They are simply flat sheet aluminum with rivnuts on one side and a screw through the other.  It was inevitable that they would bend as soon as the panels shifted under load. 

I would have thought that after the millions of dollars of research money they have burned they would have engineered something a lot better.

If anything like that ever ended up on a road with those proud edges it is going to induce a lot of bloody awful road noise in a car travelling over it at 30mph/50kmph.
(Not to mention - not last 5 minutes)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 11, 2016, 04:11:22 am
From the Sandpoint City budget...
http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766)
Page 14
 :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261727;image)

$500k!  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 11, 2016, 04:32:09 am
Once the community finds out what has been spent on these silly Christmas lights they might just need those bullet proof vests.   :phew:   
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 11, 2016, 04:42:54 am
I would have thought that after the millions of dollars of research money they have burned they would have engineered something a lot better.
They actually had a better design, where edges were made of angle iron with lower part of the "L" below the surface, so you get tiles next to each other, separated only by two widths of the angle iron and the whole tile suspended in a rigid frame. But I presume that was prohibitively expensive to manufacture.

So this shitty design is a cost optimized version :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 05:29:16 am
From the Sandpoint City budget...
http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766 (http://cityofsandpoint.com/home/showdocument?id=3766)
Page 14
 :o
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261727;image)

$500k!  :palm:

Keep in mind that the budget figures might have been the amounts of the grants applied for, but they received far less.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bud on October 11, 2016, 06:08:16 am
And for less money the city built an RV park and police building secured parking ...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bktemp on October 11, 2016, 09:53:46 am
Is it me, the photo, or do they have some serious engineering issues with their edge plates.

Also, I cannot see a lot of anti-skid texture in that close up.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=261719;image)
Whenever there were peope on the live feed while it was raining, everybody carefully tested the tiles if they are slippery before walking over that area. So most people except them to be really slippery.
A lot of people also looked at the area between the tiles. Now I know why.
If you unscrew the edge plates you can access the connectors and disconnect the tiles. At least it looked like this has been done to disconnect some panels during the nightly maintenance last week.
Unless the tiles are secured otherwise, presumably they get stolen pretty quick if they get installed somewhere without a camera looking at them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 11, 2016, 12:55:42 pm
New Thunderf00t video on solar roadways!
Haven't watched it yet, but I know it's going to be funny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pIfo1Dynjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pIfo1Dynjg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 11, 2016, 01:23:05 pm
I was waiting until they released some power generation numbers before I did a video on this, but turns out Thunderf00t captured a tweet (now deleted?) where they admit it's not producing any power at all  :palm:
Also explains why their website monitor page does not work.

(http://i.imgur.com/ta9gRIZ.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 11, 2016, 01:57:39 pm
And this "replacement" will be.... when?

After the next round of funding I suppose, not before.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 11, 2016, 03:16:01 pm
I was waiting until they released some power generation numbers before I did a video on this, but turns out Thunderf00t captured a tweet (now deleted?) where they admit it's not producing any power at all  :palm

LOL...  Yeah, when I watched Thunderf00t's latest video when it came out a couple hours ago, I couldn't believe it...  NONE OF THE PANELS ACTUALLY WORK! I laughed so hard I felt like I was going to explode...  Then the :palm: set in when I realized the depth of the absurdity of this farce!

Now it just makes me angry.

Those of us that actually design, build, service and repair real, functional stuff have to work our butts off to make a living while clowns like this get funding from all directions (in this case, including public funds!!) and free, seemingly unwaveringly positive, marketing from every "news" outlet for their easily demonstrably bogus crap!  :bullshit: ARGH!!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 07:39:09 pm
Umm...hate to tell you, but I pointed out the unworkedness over a week ago.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 09:36:46 pm
12 days after the rollout date, after essentially declaring victory and failing to correct dozens of fawning reports on how the pilot test is generating power, Solar Roadways admits the pilot rollout is a failure:

http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges)

Quote
“We completed the installation at 5 a.m. Sunday morning,” Scott Brusaw said. “All the installation does at the moment is provide a light show. The solar cells and the heating elements are unusable in their current state.”

http://bit.ly/2ed4kMJ (http://bit.ly/2ed4kMJ)

I guess I won't have to drive up to Sandpoint and read the meter(s) after all. 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 11, 2016, 09:43:49 pm
Quote
All the installation does at the moment is provide a light show
Not really, it does not even provide a good light show.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on October 11, 2016, 09:53:50 pm
Quote
All the installation does at the moment is provide a light show
Not really, it does not even provide a good light show.

For 500K I'd expect something a bit more spectacular as a light show!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 11, 2016, 10:15:29 pm
From The SolarRoadways blog, 11 October:

Quote
The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

[fieldday]
I count  3kW of power supplies. If that's not enough juice to fully illuminate 7 out of 30 solar panels, what is?
[/fieldday]
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 11, 2016, 10:21:00 pm
genius how a two bit startup company Solar Roadways Incorporated can tap in to the global warming paranoia of al gore,s 2012 doomsday. as long as it barely works. just a little bit, a smart highway can be sold for $  so here is the key, 
 1: find something that tap's in to the popular thinking of our time.
2: make a working prototype that barely works, but it must work.
 3: use marketing and tricks to get backing for the startup.
4: let the money pile up
5: start the next two bit startup company with a new prototype that barely works.

why did i not think of that .  scamming environmentalists out of their money! :-DD 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 11, 2016, 10:25:19 pm
12 days after the rollout date, after essentially declaring victory and failing to correct dozens of fawning reports on how the pilot test is generating power, Solar Roadways admits the pilot rollout is a failure:
http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges)

I was going to do a video today laughing at the hilarity of this install. In light of this link with them admitting it went ahead knowing full well it would not produce any power and most panels faulty, should I still do the video? as I might have to do another one in the next few weeks when they have working panels installed.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Koen on October 11, 2016, 10:44:14 pm
Did you laughing-lot not notice the "October actual" of 36.000 USD next to the 500.000 USD budget ? There's enough to laugh or worry about without exaggerating.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 11, 2016, 10:55:11 pm
I noticed in that local newspaper interview it says "the city is looking forward to the full, working project, which will include Solar Roadways’ SR4 panels" (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges))

Anybody want to guess what the next excuse will be if they don't fully function when installed?

Call me crazy, but surely fixing the manufacturing issues on panels you previously thought were good enough for a customer, and then installing them would be sensible, not also rolling out a new version, in public, at short notice....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 11, 2016, 11:56:00 pm
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.  Will also be interesting when you get a hot day in winter and snow melts and the water gets in the cracks, then freezes overnight. 

All that money and so many details like that they did not seem to consider.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2016, 12:03:10 am
When making your decision just decide on where the value of a video is. Is it good for you and the viewcounts of the EEVBlog? The more rabid it is the better I imagine. Guided by the posts in this thread  you should have no difficulty deciding what your audience want.

The goal of my solar roadways videos has always been to:
a) Keep people updated on attempts at this boondoggle (because they seem interested, look at the view counts)
b) Present data and then come to a conclusion as whether or not this whole concept is feasible, and if not explain to people why it's a waste of time and money.
c) Have a laugh debunking a demonstrably stupid but massively popular concept.
d) Show people how they can think critically about ideas like this.

I had assumed that this new install would actually produce some power so we could have some data, but it's now clear that's not possible. So from a data point of view it's kinda pointless.
I'm sure people would find a video of me just laughing at their incompetence on this whole install funny though. And that's probably deserved too because both SR and the media have been talking this up like it's the best thing ever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2016, 12:09:15 am
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.

Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage :palm:
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?

(http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2014/06/blogs/schumpeter/20140607_fnp501.jpg)

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Parking-lot-east.jpg)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on October 12, 2016, 12:17:29 am
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.

Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage :palm:
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?

Probably since it is a temporary installation there were local Guvmint restrictions on what they could do, since it may have to be returned to its original state after the trial.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 12, 2016, 01:02:50 am
Probably since it is a temporary installation there were local Guvmint restrictions on what they could do, since it may have to be returned to its original state after the trial.
Yeah, that's a perfect way out. It is not our product that sucks, it is all government fault. Give us more money :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 12, 2016, 01:46:06 am
With an unproven surface, the risk of injury - and, thus, liability - could be a limiting factor.  It looks like it has some slip and trip hazard issues.

Maybe that's what the rest of the budget is for?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 12, 2016, 01:48:17 am
lol this is really bad, and it's not even cold enough for frost heave yet!  Technically you almost need a concrete footing under these.

Their original installation was vastly more impressive than this new one. It had a concrete base and side concrete pits for the wiring and inverters and controllers and drainage etc. Panels looked much more robust and were bolted into steel bolts embedded in the concrete.
Now they just have these flimsy panels sitting on compacted sand on top of a drop sheet with no drainage :palm:
WTF happened? It's as if they have gone back in progress not forward?

The original was so expensive and impractical, it could have never worked.  They had to cost-reduce and encapsulate their electronics.

All roads needing utility trenches with that mess of conduit and mishmash of 3rd party equipment?  Now guess what?  You get to manage and treat all the runoff with even more civil works. 

SR did keep the 240VAC micro inverters, which is a strange, strange architecture given the massive amount of cabling costs and line loss.  Utility scale solar is NOT what micro inverters were ever intended for.  I think even EnPhase would tell people that's a nutty application. 

The irony of this is that once those panels are potted, recycling or repairing defective panels becomes virtually impossible - which brings right back around to asphalt - the undisputed heavyweight enviro-champion - and its >99% recycling rate.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 12, 2016, 03:18:17 am
I do not begrudge the man or woman with a vision to change the world, but this product will mostly end up on the driveways of the mega rich as pavers. just so they can say even the driveway is carbon offsetting for the tesla.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 12, 2016, 03:43:16 am
Yeah I remember their original panels and install looked much better, and more robust, but I'm guessing it was cost prohibitive to make more of them.  I think they had more LEDs too, as they showed them being able to draw lines on the road.  With the current spacing you can't do much specific stuff except for just lighting them in different colors.
 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 10:10:37 am
I was going to do a video today laughing at the hilarity of this install. In light of this link with them admitting it went ahead knowing full well it would not produce any power and most panels faulty, should I still do the video? as I might have to do another one in the next few weeks when they have working panels installed.

Just record five minutes of yourself shaking your head in your hands. That sums it up nicely.

It wouldn't be very entertaining, but ... there's not a lot of material to work with.

Maybe just a three minute message to the people financing this.

Possible storyboard:

1) Take a big piece of paper with the math/science written all over it and throw it over your shoulder. They obviously aren't interested in that.

2) Point out that despite $(mumble) million in funding the panels still don't produce any power and can't heat a single snowflake. All they do is flash LEDs. Badly. Using mains electricity.

3) Whip out those $1 disco lights you bought at Jaycar two weeks ago and put a sheet of glass on top. Use the one with the broken LEDs. That's what they just paid for...at a million times the price of what you paid.

4) Show lots of photos of Scott with "scammer" written on them.

5) Done.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 12, 2016, 12:18:41 pm
 But the original ones had to stand up to the weight of a small tractor parking on it. These new ones, just a teenager jumping up and down.  :-DD
 Could the reason they had no actual data before be because those prototype ones they set up outside their facility and parked the tractor on ALSO didn't actual work?
 All that money, blown on manufacturing equipment and yet they still cannot manufacture much of anything, on TOP of all the science that says this is just bullshit. Love it.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on October 12, 2016, 12:23:26 pm
Let's hope they don't catch fire once the water seeps in.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 12, 2016, 01:34:49 pm
Let's hope they don't catch fire once the water seeps in.
Well, that would have the panel producing some energy.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 12, 2016, 01:43:57 pm
But the original ones had to stand up to the weight of a small tractor parking on it. These new ones, just a teenager jumping up and down.  :-DD
 Could the reason they had no actual data before be because those prototype ones they set up outside their facility and parked the tractor on ALSO didn't actual work?

I'm pretty sure they worked, and IIRC they give give one measured output power number or something in some report to the government funding body, but no actual public data. They are probably embarrassed at the result.

Quote
All that money, blown on manufacturing equipment and yet they still cannot manufacture much of anything, on TOP of all the science that says this is just bullshit. Love it.  :popcorn:

They are thoroughly clueless about the economics of manufacturing. And as for the story about them just putting the panels together hours before the install, and then having to spend all night writing code for the blinky, WTF? Who does that? They would have had this planned for many months, and they have been working on the panels for years and they didn't already have demo blinky code written?
And as for everyone knowing that 2/3's of the panels LED's were faulty, and not a single one could produce any power, knowing this just before the install and then making the decision to go ahead with it anyway? Crazy, and a waste of public and investor money. They deserve any criticism they get for this botched install.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 01:57:12 pm
And as for everyone knowing that 2/3's of the panels LED's were faulty, and not a single one could produce any power, knowing this just before the install and then making the decision to go ahead with it anyway? Crazy, and a waste of public and investor money. They deserve any criticism they get for this botched install.

Were the panels around the outside of this demo supposed to light up as well? Why are they black?

Did they turn up with a load of faulty panels and decide to put the non-working ones around the outside as if that was intentional.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 02:06:36 pm
From The SolarRoadways blog, 11 October:

Quote
We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.

Somebody's telling lies.

How do I know? Because somebody went along at 1:30 in the morning, looked at the computer screen and decided to switch off four panels that were producing a perfect light show. Why would you do that if "light show" is the only thing the panels were supposed to be doing?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=260466;image)

Hands up if you think it's more likely those four panels were producing such a small amount of power that he decided it was better to pretend that they'd failed completely rather than show the results.

Hands up if you also think he's now claiming none of the panels were wired for power production because the output of the remaining panels is so embarrassing.

(raises both hands)


Full sequence of events in (approximately) real time is here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/msg1041402/#msg1041402 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/msg1041402/#msg1041402)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 02:26:36 pm
Next question: Is anybody here able to send this evidence to the people who are funding this?

(And Dave, you now have some real material for a new video...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on October 12, 2016, 02:47:07 pm
How on earth is this described as a "Demonstration of a Solar Roadway"?

1)  It's not a road.  It's not even a pavement (sidewalk), it's a patio.

2)  It's not fecking solar for feck's sake!  |O  They have admitted that there is zero solar PV power produced.

They have built the world's most expensive flashing patio.  How can they (or the media) possibly spin this as being anything close to a "Solar Roadway"?

  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Towger on October 12, 2016, 02:47:43 pm
Did they turn up with a load of faulty panels and decide to put the non-working ones around the outside as if that was intentional.

More or less: http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges (http://www.bonnercountydailybee.com/local_news/20161007/sr_pilot_on_track_despite_challenges)

Quote
All 30 panels — the LEDs, heaters and solar cells — had been tested and worked.

What they hadn’t counted on was the lamination — the last step in the manufacturing process — taking so long. The process, which hermetically seals the panels so they are weatherproof, normally takes six hours and is done under extreme vacuum to remove all air bubbles.

Thursday, the Brusaws and the rest of the Solar Roadways team stayed up all night taping the panels for lamination, then loaded the oven and began the lamination process at 5 a.m. With a press conference set for 1 p.m. and the “big reveal” in the town square set for 3 p.m., the couple said they knew there was little chance of them making the deadline.

....

Quote
“When the panels were finally removed from the oven, many of the internal circuit boards had been pulled apart,” he said. “Many of the components were crushed, bent or broken. Of the 30 panels, less than half of them still had LED functionality and only five of those could still produce any power.”
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 12, 2016, 03:08:38 pm
I've sent an email about Scott's secret nighttime visit to the Bonner County Daily Bee.

Let's see if anything happens.  :popcorn:

From today's blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=262080;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 12, 2016, 04:03:34 pm
The part I really don't understand about this whole fiasco is the "building them the night before" part. 

This was in thw works for HOW LONG and they were still just building the panels the day they were supposed to be revealed?!

They knew this was going to be a public demo yet they went ahead on this schedule without any working prototypes to demonstrate?  :wtf:

How does that make any sense? 

That's just pure insanity!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: digsys on October 13, 2016, 02:21:32 am
Folks ! We're going to need BIGGER SHOVELS !
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2016, 06:08:04 am
The part I really don't understand about this whole fiasco is the "building them the night before" part. 
This was in thw works for HOW LONG and they were still just building the panels the day they were supposed to be revealed?!
They knew this was going to be a public demo yet they went ahead on this schedule without any working prototypes to demonstrate?  :wtf:
How does that make any sense? 
That's just pure insanity!!

It's worse, they also wrote the blinky demo the night before, as if they never had it already  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2016, 06:11:29 am
From today's blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog):

Quote
Meanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 13, 2016, 06:50:17 am
Quote
but we’ll set things straight soon enough!
We just need a bit more time until next government check clears :).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Kean on October 13, 2016, 07:50:07 am
It's worse, they also wrote the blinky demo the night before, as if they never had it already  :palm:

Actually I suspect the last minute "programming LEDs" was loading load into the microcontrollers, not actually writing the code.
But I find this whole thing mind boggling - terrible idea, terrible design, terrible implementation, terrible project management.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 08:59:17 am
Quote
... on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime.
Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.

Maybe he didn't have the right LED controller chips in the LAB that day.

Or ... maybe he's just making excuses because he never actually tried those LEDs in daylight.

Either way it's  :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit: :bullshit:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 13, 2016, 11:44:57 am
From today's blog (http://www.solarroadways.com/Blog/Blog):

Quote
Meanwhile, we hope you all are enjoying the partially working panels in person or with the webcam. The naysayers are of course trying to “spin” a narrative that we are having problems in all areas, rather than everything stemming from a problem with one piece of equipment. We haven’t begun to show you what the panels can do. We just had time to very quickly throw up some LED patterns and they are on a low setting which is why it’s hard to see them on the webcam in the daytime. The naysayers are really having a field day with that one, but we’ll set things straight soon enough!

Err, why not just up the LED brightness? What's the problem there? It can't be the lamination issue.

Because there are clearly more undisclosed problems.

We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 13, 2016, 12:48:48 pm
The rogue LED's back again, needs some more maintenance. Is anybody in the area?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=262236;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 13, 2016, 01:04:24 pm
is it a little odd when some people spend a lot of time monitoring the entrance to public toilets  :=\
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 13, 2016, 03:00:16 pm
We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.

That would be somewhat of a major fail, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: vk6zgo on October 13, 2016, 10:47:58 pm
We just got our first frost this week. We have a warm front for the next few days. Then .... the City of Sandpoint will have to start putting a barricade around their ice-covered, electric disco floor, lest someone going to the loo take a header and break something.

That would be somewhat of a major fail, wouldn't it?

It reminds me a bit of the architect who designed a building here in Perth with beautiful smooth,shiny tiles surrounding it.
Lovely in the Summer,but the first rains turned it into a skating rink! ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2016, 11:18:28 pm
He seems to be right about the LED's not being set to full brightness, just look at this stuck LED:
(http://i.imgur.com/GtwgzHA.png)

But given that the LED's are the only thing working on this entire project, why deliberately set them to low brightness?  :-//
They obviously have some issue preventing full brightness being used.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on October 13, 2016, 11:24:22 pm
They obviously have some issue preventing full brightness being used.
It may be overwhelmingly bright when its dark outside. I don't know if they have light sensors. You would thing they have, but then again, you would also think they should give up.

It looks like they are starting to have some weather up there, lets see how water proof those things are.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 14, 2016, 12:26:19 am
He seems to be right about the LED's not being set to full brightness, just look at this stuck LED:
Trouble is it is a very overcast day.

I was driving west the other day in the evening into a very bright low sun and I was having great difficulty seeing freshly painted lane markings due to the way the light was reflecting off the road at times. LEDS would have to be exceptionally bright to be visible, and if they were that bright, they would be far to bright for anyone not driving straight into the sun.

The traditional painted lanes do some really cool things - they change brightness automatically with the applied light. They do not disappear or go crazy when there is a computer fault or a power failure. You can add various sorts of rumble strip solutions so you can hear and feel when you are drifting out of a lane or off the road.

Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2016, 12:34:35 am
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy do to a computer glitch in peak hour.

What are the odds of that, given this guy's engineering track record?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 14, 2016, 01:05:08 am
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy do to a computer glitch in peak hour.

What are the odds of that, given this guy's engineering track record?

I don't think we need worry about that, nobody's going to be able to see them...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Habropoda on October 14, 2016, 02:20:18 am
Quote
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.

Gives new meaning to the Blue Screen of Death.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 14, 2016, 02:35:09 am
Quote
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.
Just Imagine if your a council road maintenance worker. But with Solar Roadways, now you must be  a qualified electronics technician, or your out of a Job!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 14, 2016, 02:43:21 am
Quote
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.
Just Imagine if your a council road maintenance worker. But with Solar Roadways, now you must be  a qualified electronics technician, or your out of a Job!

No, no, no.... It's a job creation exercise!

The road maintenance worker will still have his job - but there will be two other jobs created.

The first is the Electronics Technician (as you have said) who's job will be to isolate the tiles so they are safe to wrangle....
Then you will have the Structural Technician that will ensure the tiles and their mountings are removed safely....
Then the road maintenance worker can fill in the hole.
Once that job is done, then the Structural technician can be called back to refit the mountings and tiles, followed by the Electronics Technician who will reconnect, test and recommission the system.

Hey presto, 3 jobs instead of one!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 14, 2016, 02:50:44 am
I got to thinking how sad it was we had have no data from any panels, nothing on solar energy capture, or heating, or full brightness LEDs in daylight.

Then I wondered about making a mock-up of one, just out of acrylic and stuff. It's not like it could be much worse than the Sandpoint installation. I'd also had a beer so my judgement may have been a little blury....

And then this happened... http://www.SolarFlippinGardens.com (http://www.SolarFlippinGardens.com)

(http://solarflippingardens.com/images/header1.png)

Please feel free to:

Sorry, no $50 T-Shirts available, no crowd funding, no real end product. Just some silly fun.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 07:21:56 am
The traditional painted lanes do some really cool things - they change brightness automatically with the applied light. They do not disappear or go crazy when there is a computer fault or a power failure. You can add various sorts of rumble strip solutions so you can hear and feel when you are drifting out of a lane or off the road.

Yet you try and point out these benefits to the solar roadways fanboys and they just keep crapping on about how the LED's can work ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 07:23:42 am
Imagine if you have a big complex high speed multi-lane interconnect with LED lane markers and all of a sudden the road markings go crazy due to a computer glitch in peak hour.

Every other issue aside, the road authorities would not approve a purely LED based solution on the basis of this. These agencies are arse covering by default.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bktemp on October 14, 2016, 08:18:19 am
He seems to be right about the LED's not being set to full brightness, just look at this stuck LED:
(http://i.imgur.com/GtwgzHA.png)

Maybe the multiplexing failed and the one led is now driven at a much too high current?

Are there too many people watching the live feed? I get a blank page with the following message:
Quote
Oops, the page you are looking for may have been removed, renamed, entered wrong or is temporarily unavailable!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 14, 2016, 12:35:27 pm
Just consider the surface. Either the original studded one or this new smoother one with edge join cover strips screwed down. No-one will tolerate the vibration that will result or the tire noise generated. Right from the start that alone suggested to me this was never going to be an actual road surface.

It may have some niche use in car-parks or shopping centers or remote tourist locations where vehicle volumes and speeds are not very high.

Just for your amusement here is an example of my local council and their environmental awareness. Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree, next to a wall that will shade it after about 1 pm. I took these photos shortly before noon just as the sun fell on it for the first time in the day. And the sloping solar panel on the top faces the wall.

I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.

That's what you call a rubbish location  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2016, 12:46:45 pm
Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree

What exactly is is supposed to be powering?  Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//


I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.

I bet they're rainproof, too.

It's understandable that manufacturers make one universal machine to be used both indoors and outdoors. The savings in paperwork and ordering/installation mistakes will probably pay for a few useless solar panels.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2016, 12:47:57 pm
I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Solar roadways will really become relevant when we all switch over to flying cars.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 14, 2016, 01:29:50 pm
Outside the entrance to my local library they have installed a solar powered rubbish bin (trashcan for our American friends). It just goes to show how this sort of thing is universal. The actual bin is not the main problem, it is that they installed it on the shaded side of a covered walkway, under a tree

What exactly is is supposed to be powering?  Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//


I should have included a photo of the solar panel on the top of the parking ticket machine in the underground carpark at my local supermarket.

I bet they're rainproof, too.

It's understandable that manufacturers make one universal machine to be used both indoors and outdoors. The savings in paperwork and ordering/installation mistakes will probably pay for a few useless solar panels.

My guess would be that it has internet connectivity to notify the appropriate people if it needs emptying, it probably only needs to signal when it gets to a predefined level, or maybe occasional updates to indicate it's alive and the approximate level, the panel with a few hours of light on it is probably more than enough to power a small micro for a daily update with occasional sensing (although I've not done any beer mat calculations!).

You save money by not emptying it when it doesn't need to be emptied, and save annoyance by emptying more frequently if required. I guess branding wise a Solar bin is more friendly than a snoopy internet connected one.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: cowana on October 14, 2016, 01:43:45 pm
I've seen a few solar bins around where I live. They're an interesting idea - they have a built in electric trash compactor, so they have a much greater capacity to be emptied much less often. Then they also have sensors to determine when they *do* need emptying, so save the cost of routinely emptying every day whether they need it or not.

Actually pretty smart - and given the solar panel just has to trickle charge a battery (for the compacting motor and GSM modem which fires up occasionally), I'd expect them to work fine in even very shady areas.

Not a bad idea actually - unlike roadways!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 14, 2016, 01:44:12 pm
What exactly is is supposed to be powering?  Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=262475;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on October 14, 2016, 02:35:50 pm
Don't forget that many vehicles including heavy haulage trucks require chains to be fitted in icy conditions, have they even bothered to test the effect these have on panels that may become brittle when the temperature drops ?.


After all these years they haven't even driven a regular car over them. Only thing they have driven on them is a <1 ton tractor with huge weight distributing wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO-sDdJzTw)

And where is the solar output data from that big test system?  :-//

at least they used green solder mask....well actually it would make sense to use white solder mask in this application.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 14, 2016, 02:43:25 pm
What exactly is is supposed to be powering?  Are there any lights on it or cables coming out the bottom? :-//

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=262475;image)

That's pretty cool!

If it's well designed and only compacts once a day then even a small amount of light might be enough. You could just gradually charge up a big supercapacitor or something, then... squish!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: StuUK on October 14, 2016, 02:55:25 pm
So just played catchup on this story and watched a view vids, read a couple of articles and now feel physically sick. The biggest load of BS I've seen for sometime, its one thing when people throw a couple of bucks/pounds whatever at a BS kickstarter but it's another thing when government gives large sums of money with zero diligence. Fuckwits!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 15, 2016, 02:09:35 pm
this is no better then the space elevator or the portable black hole. that makes money disappear. it also keeps forums going :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: TinamousSteve on October 16, 2016, 02:34:08 am
Have you tried switching it off and on again...

Didn't even wave at the camera  :-[

I love the way it's bang on 18:00 he turns up, that's military training for you.

Gaaa stupid forum and it's max 2MB limit for photo attachment, even Twitter's not that horrible, then blocking me for trying to post again in 60 seconds when I remove an image to fit the requirements. I feel a Dave rant coming on...   :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2016, 05:00:23 am
Have you tried switching it off and on again...

So not only do most of the panels not work physically, they have other lockup issues fix by a repower!

Quote
Gaaa stupid forum and it's max 2MB limit for photo attachment, even Twitter's not that horrible, then blocking me for trying to post again in 60 seconds when I remove an image to fit the requirements. I feel a Dave rant coming on...   :palm:

Both limitations exist for very good reasons.
Use Imgur
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 16, 2016, 05:04:53 am
its Drama  :popcorn: Dave u must make a Video about this  so man has brilliant idea  then at the end show a time lapse of this thing over time :-+ :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: dansan on October 16, 2016, 08:51:31 pm
In the tractor video, they cut some of the hexagonal tiles in half to create an overall rectangular area, but in the sidewalk installation they went to considerable trouble to work around the awkward shape.  Makes you go hmmm.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 16, 2016, 10:40:30 pm
 There's no solar output data from the tractor demo panels because IMO those are completely fake and they were only testing the glass, those panels used there don't generate any power and never were designed to. Just more of the scam playing out.
 Which just makes it worse - because you certainly COULD make panels in a roadway that generate power, no one is disputing that this could work. The issue is longevity and poor output per cost compared to ordinary existing panels mounted off the ground and tilted at the proper angle. That these idiots have spent all this money, and not just scammed from crowdfunding money but MY tax dollars and still can't even get something as simple as the LED pattern to actually work reliably makes them the worst kind of charlatans.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 06:23:54 am
Another video.
I didn't want to create a new thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Barny on October 18, 2016, 06:27:25 am
Is it just me, or where the first "you are only a hater" comments written bevore they could have seen the video in full lengh?
I was coincidentally at the PC when the new video message was comeing in and watched the video view seconds later.
And this you are a hater - Solar Roadway fanboys had written comments already.

Are this fanboys patreons of Dave to see the video early or are they hater them selfe?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: R005T3r on October 18, 2016, 07:17:47 am
Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Neddie on October 18, 2016, 07:25:35 am
At least I found something useful on their website. Something for my kids to do!!
Unbelievable!!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: StuUK on October 18, 2016, 07:26:12 am
Another video.
I didn't want to create a new thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkbioiQHmA)

Harsh but fair  :-DD ....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 18, 2016, 07:33:36 am
Is it just me, or where the first "you are only a hater" comments written bevore they could have seen the video in full lengh?
I was coincidentally at the PC when the new video message was comeing in and watched the video view seconds later.

I get email notification of new Youtube videos two days or so after I've watched them here on the Forum.

Unless you get notification some other way, there's been a lot of time for watching before the email.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Barny on October 18, 2016, 07:45:56 am
I get email notification of new Youtube videos two days or so after I've watched them here on the Forum.

Unless you get notification some other way, there's been a lot of time for watching before the email.
I wrote my own notification-program.
It looks every 60seconds for videos with high priority like EEVblog, Mathias Wandel,...
Low priority video uptdates get checked every 2 hours.

So yes, I think, I was watching the video short after it was available for me.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 07:47:29 am
I get email notification of new Youtube videos two days or so after I've watched them here on the Forum.

There have been Youtube issues recently I'm lead to believe.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 07:50:10 am
Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...

Because the government , MDOT in this case, have a road technology initiative they have achieve. Projects like this look good on their books, no one checks for validity.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 07:51:23 am
Is it just me, or where the first "you are only a hater" comments written bevore they could have seen the video in full lengh?

Yep, always happens.

Quote
Are this fanboys patreons of Dave to see the video early or are they hater them selfe?

They just subscribe on youtube and get the email alert instantly
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: hans on October 18, 2016, 08:13:53 am
*52.397kWh @ 16:32

Did they really laminate assembled PCB's and then be amazed they are almost all broken?
Like.. you're putting the whole stack through a freaking roller press. Didn't they use a pressure mold or something to distribute the pressure? :=\

Their "step backwards" in engineering results suggest to me they maybe had some HR crisis and lost knowledge/IP as the result of that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Barny on October 18, 2016, 08:27:18 am
Laminating of PCB's isn't the same like laminating a sheet of paper.
Think of it as "fill everything with potting compound."

But there is a little trap:
Some of the compound gets really hot.
Like damage the IC / LED's hot.

Some of them shrink & sheer of the components

Some of them dissolve the copper and other components.
(I found that out after building my own LED-bulb with screw-socket 15 years ago. Using silicone that contains vinegar was no good decision)


Another Problem is trapped air.
If you don't use a vacuum chamber during the laminating, you'll get air bubbles like shown in the video.
Normally they don't get that big. Even when you don't use a vacuum chamber. I don't knew how they manage to get this big air bubbles.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 18, 2016, 10:06:33 am
52.397kWh @ 16:32

Oh my...  Just over 52 kWh for 4 panels in 6 months...

Let's check the economics compared to traditional generation.  The electricity rate here in Calgary on my last bill (in Canadian dollars) was $0.0330430 per kWh.  So those four panels generated a whopping $1.73 worth of electricity in six months.

That doesn't seem to be terribly competitive...  Those panels cost HOW MUCH?!!  :palm: 
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bob808 on October 18, 2016, 10:08:50 am
They are trying to milk the cow as much as possible. By "damaging" the panels they get some more funding to continue their project. Blinky leds, some powerpoint slides and they have another 6 months.
Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop? Looking at it from that perspective it kind of make more sense to use the large space that is available as public roads vs the one that you have to get loads of paperwork for, and may never be able to do on certain buildings. The roof space is more limited than the roads around the city as well.
It's just a thought and I'd love some input.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Magnets on October 18, 2016, 10:44:47 am
Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop?

Councils can just subsidise private installations - which many governments actually do by guaranteeing feed-in tariff rates.

Installation firms in the UK only pay 5% VAT instead of the regular 20% like almost every other business.

You can create solar farms too, there's plenty of empty land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_power_station

It's infinitely more practical
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bob808 on October 18, 2016, 11:03:07 am
I guess I don't want to believe that there are people so incompetent deciding on funding this kind of crap. Aren't there some kind of laws that require the projected to be ok-ed by a neutral EE or something like that?
That's a crapload of money down the drain, and it was predictable. Does anyone have any other shameless idea I could turn into $ ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on October 18, 2016, 11:26:57 am
52.397kWh @ 16:32

Oh my...  Just over 52 kWh for 4 panels in 6 months...

Let's check the economics compared to traditional generation.  The electricity rate here in Calgary on my last bill (in Canadian dollars) was $0.0330430 per kWh.  So those four panels generated a whopping $1.73 worth of electricity in six months.

That doesn't seem to be terribly competitive...  Those panels cost HOW MUCH?!!  :palm:

Less than $0.04 per kWh?

How do I move to Canada??

Here in overpriced, under reliable South Australia (the Blackout State) were paying $0.30 per kWh.

That's the price of subsidised green power for you....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 11:45:53 am
That doesn't seem to be terribly competitive...  Those panels cost HOW MUCH?!!  :palm:

$2000 depending upon who you ask  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: mxmarek on October 18, 2016, 11:56:02 am
Maybe they failed because of secret-magical ingredient's radiation killing electronics. The secret ingredient could be miniature nuclear reactor that magically boosts power generation ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Gary350z on October 18, 2016, 12:02:01 pm
Latest Solar Roadways webcam screen capture. Looks like they fixed the broken panels. :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=263267;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: NANDBlog on October 18, 2016, 12:05:10 pm
Business plan:
1) have an unpractical, but cool idea, that is from a  sci-fi, and seems possible
2) get government funding
3) confuse the data

(http://postober.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/money-where-does-it-go.jpg)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 18, 2016, 12:05:16 pm
Laminating of PCB's isn't the same like laminating a sheet of paper.
Think of it as "fill everything with potting compound."

But there is a little trap:
Some of the compound gets really hot.
Like damage the IC / LED's hot.

Some of them shrink & sheer of the components

Some of them dissolve the copper and other components.
(I found that out after building my own LED-bulb with screw-socket 15 years ago. Using silicone that contains vinegar was no good decision)


Another Problem is trapped air.
If you don't use a vacuum chamber during the laminating, you'll get air bubbles like shown in the video.
Normally they don't get that big. Even when you don't use a vacuum chamber. I don't knew how they manage to get this big air bubbles.

 You can get big air bubbles in many of those types of compounds by being in too much of a hurry - mixing too fast results in lots of tiny bubbles that can migrate together to form a big bubble, and so can pouring the stuff into the mold too fast. Various epoxy resins used to model water have this same problem, you are always cautioned to mix very slowly and not to agitate things too much to prevent bubbles. The modeling ones, you can often draw off small bubbles by heating the surface as it cures. Seems like they were in a hurry to get these panels out the door and I'll bet the skimped on the process somewhere to speed things up and the damage and bubbles are the result.
 I also have the feeling these are the first ones they made that are supposed to be actually working - I said earlier I have doubts that the ones they used for the tractor parking on top test actually had working solar cells in them - hence no solar energy collection data. It was just to prove you could park a lightweight tractor on top of the material without damage (relatively light - that tractor is much heavier than my lawn tractor, but it's nothing relative to actual highway traffic these things would have to withstand). It's bad enough when the whole concept is demonstrably unviable, but when the company championing the concept and with all the money raised can't produce, we have bigger problems. There's no reason this shouldn't work - just poorly compared to rooftop solar.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 18, 2016, 01:17:45 pm
Now there's something that I don't understand. Clearly the best scenario would be to install them on rooftops, but doesn't that open a can of worms? Wouldn't each building owner have to agree on having public panels (that add to the local infrastructure) on their building's rooftop? Looking at it from that perspective it kind of make more sense to use the large space that is available as public roads vs the one that you have to get loads of paperwork for, and may never be able to do on certain buildings. The roof space is more limited than the roads around the city as well.
It's just a thought and I'd love some input.

A good question.
It comes down to ease of access first, and then legislation and/or incentivisation.
You of course start with all public buildings, train stations, bus depots, local council buildings and other infrastructure etc.
Once that is exhausted then you can legislate that say all new buildings must allow panels on the roof for the community good. e.g. in Sydney all new houses must meet basic sustainability requirements, e.g. a water tank, efficient lights and aircons, insulation etc. If you don't meet it, you can't build your house.
Could start with say strata units and commercial office towers instead of homes, and hardly anyone would complain.
Then if if you are doing it for the community good and the government doesn't want to own the solar infrastructure then you simply offer incentives (feed in tarrifs etc) for owners to install systems. They did this here in Oz and offered 60c feed-in tarrif and the country went nuts, the plan was oversubscribed many times over. Because of that over 15% or something of oz houses now have solar power.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: NANDBlog on October 18, 2016, 02:07:58 pm
Then if if you are doing it for the community good and the government doesn't want to own the solar infrastructure then you simply offer incentives (feed in tarrifs etc) for owners to install systems. They did this here in Oz and offered 60c feed-in tarrif and the country went nuts, the plan was oversubscribed many times over. Because of that over 15% or something of oz houses now have solar power.
I'm not sure, if you are saying it as a bad thing? Some people are against government incentives, saying that otherwise solar would not be viable, and it is a bad way to spend money...
But I think it cannot be further away from the truth. The government spent some money, to help people build solar panels. They stay, they work for 30+ years, reduce pollution, etc. You know this. Now, why is it bad that government spends money on a good cause? They could have reduced the tax on power, instead they spent it on a long term solution. Sure, they could have spent it to build huge solar power plants, 'stralia is huge, and empty. But then again, they spent the money to educate the people, make them more environmental conscious.
Probably whoever did not install, payed more for electricity. It is a shenanigan. Imagine running a shenanigan to slow down global warming, stop wars for resources, make cleaner air.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2016, 02:12:44 pm
There's still no explanation for why Scott went there at 2am, took some readings by waving a gadget around above the panels, then decided to switch off four panels that were flashing their LEDs perfectly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: StuUK on October 18, 2016, 02:15:50 pm
There's still no explanation for why Scott went there at 2am, took some readings by waving a gadget around above the panels, then decided to switch off four panels that were flashing their LEDs perfectly.

They were sucking too much power from the sun... oh, hang on....
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: R005T3r on October 18, 2016, 04:24:41 pm
this is getting far from ridiculus  :palm: It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 18, 2016, 04:46:40 pm
american citizens are waking up to the politicians that waste money on white elephants.  :box: or sick & dying donkeys  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: drussell on October 18, 2016, 05:07:57 pm
I guess I don't want to believe that there are people so incompetent deciding on funding this kind of crap. Aren't there some kind of laws that require the projected to be ok-ed by a neutral EE or something like that?

Oh, how quaint that you haven't yet fully come to terms with the depth to which the money in the public purse is wasted...  :)

Less than $0.04 per kWh?

Yeah, it has been pretty reasonable this summer, though it does fluctuate due to fuel costs, obviously, since most of our provincial generation is coal or natural gas.  (Approximate generating capacity, in MW, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generating_stations_in_Alberta : )

5695 Coal
4459 Natural Gas
1027 Wind
908 Hydro
451 Biomass / Biogas / Waste Heat

Quote
How do I move to Canada??

You go through the immigration procedure, just like anyone else.  :) 

We'd be happy to have you. 

It does tend to be a bit easier when you are coming from another Commonwealth country, though there is no longer any special treatment / fast-track system.

Quote
Here in overpriced, under reliable South Australia (the Blackout State) were paying $0.30 per kWh.

That's the price of subsidised green power for you....

Yeah, no doubt!...  You're getting screwed.
And to think that I find running my server room gets expensive when it spikes up to 10 cents or more...  :-DD

Seriously, though, a huge chunk of the cost we pay here and elsewhere is tax.  Someone is raking in a HUGE chunk of change and it isn't the power generators and not usually the distributors...  :)

$2000 depending upon who you ask  :-DD

Yeah, that is going to be one a pretty pitiful return on investment for your power generating dollar.

Only a little over 2300 years to break even!  (Not including installation, maintenance, etc. of course.)  :palm:

this is getting far from ridiculus  :palm: It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?

A few of them understand, yet even they don't care.

They can make it look good to the sheeple in the constituency who have no clue...

"LOOK!  We're doing GREEN stuff!  Future HOORAH!  Vote for US!!!" :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 18, 2016, 05:27:57 pm
 This is why I just shake my head when someone goes on about the evil greedy oil companies. I suspect it's the same everywhere, but definitely here in the US, gas is actually VERY cheap, once you take off the state and Federal taxes. Some stations even post on the pumps that the price includes xx in taxes. The only reason the oil companies make huge profits is because people buy so much that even at a low profit margin, its a lot of money - a couple hundred billion pennies is actually some real money. It's all the taxes they suck off and for what? We still have crappy poorly maintained roads and pretty much nonexistent alternatives except in certain select cities. And yet millions get funneled into companies like these solar roadways idiots who buy up a lot of fancy big boy toys and still can't produce a working product - even an inefficient, but working, product.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Bud on October 18, 2016, 05:31:52 pm
this is getting far from ridiculus  :palm: It's a scam. Is it possible that NO public authority in the US recognizes that?

You do not get it. This is a convenient way for to bury (no pun intended) taxpayers money. My bet is not all of reported money went to the guy.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jonovid on October 19, 2016, 01:15:39 am
A final word on how to max out PV solar panels, if solar is your thing?   :=\ have not seen this type panel but its got to be a better design then road solar panels. :-- its the concept of roof-top motorized Sun tracking solar Louvers.  :-+

tilting tracking solar panels time of the day
http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-trackers/ (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-trackers/)
Solar trackers
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2016, 08:29:00 am
They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels!  :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

(http://i.imgur.com/4vmIVLe.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Ju6NrDM.png)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: R005T3r on October 19, 2016, 09:09:25 am
Solar roadways are still in circulation? Strange. I wonder why absolutely no authority checked these things... It's a scam after all...

Because the government , MDOT in this case, have a road technology initiative they have achieve. Projects like this look good on their books, no one checks for validity.

 :palm:
 At this point if this thing goes on, it's better if we bring it to the attention of the Scientific Community. This thing needs to be over in order to avoid an environmental disaster.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 09:13:56 am
They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels!  :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: R005T3r on October 19, 2016, 09:14:28 am
*52.397kWh @ 16:32

Did they really laminate assembled PCB's and then be amazed they are almost all broken?
Like.. you're putting the whole stack through a freaking roller press. Didn't they use a pressure mold or something to distribute the pressure? :=\

Their "step backwards" in engineering results suggest to me they maybe had some HR crisis and lost knowledge/IP as the result of that.

Not to mention, that you will neeed proper solder for that... Just imagine the normal traffic running on these things, you will have a lot of vibrations involved and joints will break if the material is not designed to work in these condition.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: coppice on October 19, 2016, 09:15:51 am
They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels!  :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?
Why would the output be a simple cosine function? Are you confusing output with insolation?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on October 19, 2016, 09:55:14 am
If you use a very simple model, it is a simple cosine function.
Insolation x Area x cos theta = instantaneous power incident with the panel.
Afaik this model is often used, with a few loss percentages tacked on.

Not saying it is the best way to calculate the daily or monthly energy but with a few more factors it is one way.

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 19, 2016, 07:08:58 pm
Quote
You have to pay for it

Generally you do have to pay for quality research data.
After all, it cost money to do the research in the first place.

But, more importantly, they are complaining about having to pay for it after receiving more than USD3M in funding!


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=263626;image)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 19, 2016, 07:24:49 pm
Guys, I'm thinking SolarRoadways is referencing the fact that the scientific paper is behind a paywall.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: max_torque on October 19, 2016, 07:50:17 pm
"Prior to SR, no one had a reason to compare lying panels flat to various angles"

Really?  No one?

 :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Towger on October 19, 2016, 08:00:05 pm
Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 19, 2016, 08:53:04 pm
Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf (http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf)

Wow!
All that free data and Solar Sidewalks still think they need to pour money into their own research.

Thanks for the link BTW.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 19, 2016, 09:08:04 pm
 Probably took them months to design their own data collection instrumentation, too.  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ion on October 19, 2016, 09:20:10 pm
More free data:

https://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/sse/grid.cgi

"Parameters for Tilted Solar Panels" has solar radiation data for various angles between 0 and 90 degrees.

(For those interested, Sandpoint Idaho is Latitude 48.28, Longitude -116.55)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 19, 2016, 09:24:43 pm
They really are so clueless that they think there isn't any research on flat vs tilted solar panels!  :palm:
Their Facebook page seems to be a treasure trove of stupidity!

Isn't it just a simple cosine function, no "data collection" needed?
Why would the output be a simple cosine function? Are you confusing output with insolation?

I imagine (in my ignorance) that the output will be proportional to the cosine of than angle between the sun and a line perpendicular to the panel.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 19, 2016, 09:41:42 pm
I wonder why Solar Roadways are even talking about tilted panels, are they planing on building tilted roads?  I guess I could see it for curves on race tracks!   :-DD

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Mr.B on October 19, 2016, 10:11:43 pm
Solar Roadways - key sponsor to Nascar.   :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Someone on October 20, 2016, 04:18:42 am
Page 18 of this document gives output figures for PV panels at different angles, including horizontal for Ireland.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf (http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Renewables_Publications_/Solar_Power/Best_Practice_Guide_for_PV.pdf)

Wow!
All that free data and Solar Sidewalks still think they need to pour money into their own research.

Thanks for the link BTW.
Still looks like theoretical data someone could put together at any time:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/tilting-(at)-solar-panels/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/tilting-(at)-solar-panels/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on October 20, 2016, 07:20:06 am
I assume that the next part of the "research" will delve into a most devilish problem that has caused much dispute in the PV community:

Should solar panels be facing upwards (to the Sun) or to the ground (the Earth) for optimal output?

A years worth of data from one panel facing up and one facing down should be most illuminating. Sound like a reasonable way to spend another 500k USD.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: cj on October 20, 2016, 01:33:50 pm
In one of the video’s I saw a panel in which some of the glass seemed to be chipped. If glass chips are pulverized (multiple cars driving over it) it creates very fine and sharp particles, imaging what happens if you’ll get that in your lungs.
 
May be SR should start investigating invisible hover cars to increase panel efficiency (no cars shadows) and prevent panel damage.

SR :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: amspire on October 20, 2016, 02:49:22 pm
The ultimate way to do this would be to make the tiles out of synthetic diamond. Since diamond can be a semiconductor, you could also use it for the photocell and LEDS so you can build everything out of carbon. Alternatively, Rubrene (an organic crystal composed of carbon and hydrogen) can be used to make excellent LEDS and Solar Panels - in theory.

Diamond is also a better heat conductor then metal so it is perfect for melting snow using energy stored in ultra-capacitors made from diamond-graphene layers in the lower half of the panels.

The Indiegogo plan would be this. Energy from the Solar roadway is fed into a box that removes CO2 and Water from the air and uses extracted Carbon and Hydrogen to make the panels. So once the process starts, it just keeps accelerating as more roadway solar power is available. The production of Solar roadway panels ends up being free and it solves global warming! The only by-product is oxygen.

Energy from the solar roadway can also be used to incinerate waste/damaged panels back into CO2 and water so there is no waste at all.

The major problem I can see would be the creation of really good 3D graphics for the crowd-sourcing campaign.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: george graves on October 20, 2016, 03:42:34 pm
I had a good laugh at the reddit comments for Dave's latest video.  Although I'm totally use to Dave's voice and speaking style by now, and it doesn't bother me one bit...but it caught some people off guard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/58383o/this_is_what_turned_out_of_solar_roadways_after (https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/58383o/this_is_what_turned_out_of_solar_roadways_after)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: DrGeoff on October 20, 2016, 09:03:49 pm
May be SR should start investigating invisible hover cars to increase panel efficiency (no cars shadows) and prevent panel damage.

Maybe they should petition the Guvmint to stop vehicles driving on them during daylight hours...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 25, 2016, 02:45:34 am
Ouch. A scathing review from PV magazine:

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2016/10/18/solar-roadways-yeah-still-not-a-thing/

Quote
Solar Roadways: Yeah, Still Not A Thing

A real PR and marketing firm could have advised Solar Roadways not to put a dog in a photo with their unproven technology. It was destined to make editors' jobs too easy.
Remember JaMarcus Russell? Former Louisiana State University quarterback who could throw the ball from one end zone to the other from his knees? Drafted No. 1 by the Oakland Raiders in 2007 and out of football three years later because, well, he really wasn’t that good?

Russell came to mind when I heard about the epic fail of the Solar Roadways unveiling in Sandpoint, Idaho, two weeks ago. The lesson from both is this: Don’t always believe the hype you’re hearing.

In 2014 and 2015, everyone was buzzing about the potential of Solar Roadways (and I do mean everyone). Slick marketing videos, combined with an almost unheard of (in the solar industry) social media blitz, had even the most uninitiated solar enthusiast convinced that solar roadways would power our futures.

Who knew the “breakthrough” technology could be foiled by a poor laminating machine? And once they’d “fixed” that problem, the flipped switch produced a light display that can only be described as Charlie Brown’s Christmas tree, pre-renovation.

So how do you spend two years hyping a product, only to have an unveiling that fails as badly as Solar Roadways? According to Leah Wilkinson, founder of Wilkinson + Associates, an Arlington, Va., based public relations and marketing firm with technology and solar specializations, there is often an extraordinary desire—  and almost visceral need — for technology inventors and entrepreneurs to talk about their new product/service, how fantastic it is and all the problems it is going to solve.

“On one hand, it is great to have an organization or a spokesperson that is passionate and ready to share their technology with the world,” Wilkinson says. “On the other hand, it’s very risky to ‘launch’ and be so vocal about a product or service before it is tested and available, from a marketing and PR perspective.”

And when overeager inventors start believing their own “champagne wishes and caviar dreams,” they can rush into unveiling their product and, as the Solar Roadways team found out the hard way, become the punchline to a searingly bad joke.

“You lose credibility — your company, your team, your investors, your customers and the public no longer trust in your word and your ability to deliver,” Wilkinson said. “Recapturing trust and credibility is one of the hardest hills to climb for an organization. This event is a great case study for why it is critically important to have seasoned communications professionals advising you.”

Can Solar Roadways recover from its recent launch fiasco? Only time will tell (but given what little I’ve seen from the technology, I have serious doubts). But the “Shambles in Sandpoint” won’t quickly fade from the public’s memory.

What’s most maddening is that the solar industry is at a critical tipping point in the minds of most consumers — and it didn’t need this overhyped, undertested pipe dream to embolden solar’s opponents to shade the industry with even sharper tongues.

Let’s hope Solar Roadways returns to the inventor’s shed until it can prove it’s actually worthy of the spotlight. As JaMarcus Russell will tell you, only tragedy can follow if it doesn’t.

The views and opinions expressed in this article are the author’s own, and do not necessarily reflect those held by pv magazine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2016, 03:32:16 am
The French Wattway update:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/ (http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rolycat on October 25, 2016, 07:29:03 am
The French Wattway update:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/ (http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/)

So the cost is around twenty times that of standard solar solutions, per watt. Despite the fact that this is not a small demonstration but a large project of over a kilometre.

And despite all this "The Energy Minister (Ségolène Royal) said repeatedly she wants 1,000 kilometres of solar road, which will cost 5 billion Euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne.

The capacity of politicians to pander to populist causes while steadfastly ignoring basic physics and economics is apparently infinite.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2016, 08:59:43 am
The French Wattway update:
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/ (http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/actualite/articles/2000-euros-route-solaire-normandie-segolene-royal-37483/)
So the cost is around twenty times that of standard solar solutions, per watt. Despite the fact that this is not a small demonstration but a large project of over a kilometre.

And that does not include prepping the road or sealing it afterwards  :palm:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2016, 03:45:37 pm
And despite all this "The Energy Minister (Ségolène Royal) said repeatedly she wants 1,000 kilometres of solar road, which will cost 5 billion Euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne.

Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: daqq on October 25, 2016, 04:00:24 pm
Quote
Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.
:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.

Also, if it's ~20 times more costly than a conventional solar solution of equivalent power, wouldn't it just be better to just build 20 times more solar power off road?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2016, 04:11:18 pm
Quote
Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.
:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.

Also, if it's ~20 times more costly than a conventional solar solution of equivalent power, wouldn't it just be better to just build 20 times more solar power off road?

Maybe they're building it for the same reasons they built Versailles - to show the world that the French are rich and powerful. Everybody who drives through France will see this and marvel. That won't happen with conventional solar.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on October 25, 2016, 05:40:56 pm
Quote
Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.
:palm: Free-ish. Add to that: Maintenance, replacement.

Also, if it's ~20 times more costly than a conventional solar solution of equivalent power, wouldn't it just be better to just build 20 times more solar power off road?

 This is what I don't get - how could even the most die-hard greenie support this? Even assuming the solar roadway was exactly as efficient as any other solar installation, why would any thinking person install a solar roadway when for the same expense you could build 20x the installation and get 20 times more power from solar? 20 times the clean renewable power, meaning an even greater reduction in need for other forms of energy. That's completely ignoring the science in this which only makes the difference inw hat you get for the price even greater.

 Ah - but the REAL proponents are the government and their cronies. Why spend that money on 20x the actual solar installations when you can skim 50% off the top and benefit you and your cronies and build a useless but feel good solar roadway? Too cynical? But how else do you explain this huge disconnect? 20x the cost even if you ignore the science and say it is otherwise equal in all ways - no one can be this blind, it HAS to be deliberate.


Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rolycat on October 25, 2016, 06:38:55 pm
Maybe they're building it ... to show the world that the French are rich and powerful stupid.
Everybody who drives through France will see this and marvel :palm:. That won't happen with conventional solar.
FTFY
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 26, 2016, 12:21:41 am
For that bike path it would probably be cheaper and make more sense to build overhead supports to put the panels directly above the trail.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on October 26, 2016, 02:48:49 am
.... and idea that has been implemented in other locations, as well as being suggested here .... on more than one occasion.


But - apologies - we are being too logical.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: number33 on October 26, 2016, 07:46:46 pm
Is it my imagination or is it always raining in Sandpoint.  That webcam looks like a Ridley Scott movie.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 26, 2016, 09:44:26 pm
Ah - but the REAL proponents are the government and their cronies. Why spend that money on 20x the actual solar installations when you can skim 50% off the top and benefit you and your cronies and build a useless but feel good solar roadway? Too cynical? But how else do you explain this huge disconnect? 20x the cost even if you ignore the science and say it is otherwise equal in all ways - no one can be this blind, it HAS to be deliberate.

For the previous video I tried to find if there were any links between the French minister and Colas in some way. Donations, family ties etc, but if was hard not speaking French.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on October 26, 2016, 09:45:59 pm
And despite all this "The Energy Minister (Ségolène Royal) said repeatedly she wants 1,000 kilometres of solar road, which will cost 5 billion Euros on the basis of the project cost in the Orne.
Yes but that's only the startup costs. After that it's basically just free electricity forever.

Only after the payback period which is >20x longer than regular solar (which is already marginal payback) PLUS the maintenance upkeep.
It's the dumbest idea in history.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on October 26, 2016, 10:49:34 pm
Is it my imagination or is it always raining in Sandpoint.  That webcam looks like a Ridley Scott movie.  :)

It has been an extraordinarily wet fall here. It is very rare to get this much rain this soon
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Koen on October 26, 2016, 11:28:32 pm
For the previous video I tried to find if there were any links between the French minister and Colas in some way. Donations, family ties etc, but if was hard not speaking French.
Colas is massive and this is a practical way for the french government to help its industries. They've just ordered new high speed trains to help Alstom too. It's usual, it avoids hearing Europe whine about preferential treatments for national companies and it looks better in the medias than "Colas to end 3000 jobs : government to intervene by donating 2B".
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on October 27, 2016, 01:22:28 pm
Ah - but the REAL proponents are the government and their cronies. Why spend that money on 20x the actual solar installations when you can skim 50% off the top and benefit you and your cronies and build a useless but feel good solar roadway? Too cynical? But how else do you explain this huge disconnect? 20x the cost even if you ignore the science and say it is otherwise equal in all ways - no one can be this blind, it HAS to be deliberate.

For the previous video I tried to find if there were any links between the French minister and Colas in some way. Donations, family ties etc, but if was hard not speaking French.

I'm cynical on average, but not that cynical.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on November 17, 2016, 02:44:47 am
the new panels are comming:

http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1 (http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1)

currently under construction!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on November 17, 2016, 03:03:25 am
The bizarre thing is that my script, which is recording the webcam feed to disk, is still running as I type this. Curious to see what I'm recording! (Not at home to see it right now.)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on November 17, 2016, 03:06:00 am
So this round gets done in secret unless I drive up and take photos...  :-/

Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world. 

Today was our first real day of snow in the region.  Cutting the video feed is convenient timing, since perhaps a live video feed of a snow-covered Solar Roadway would not be so flattering.   ::)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on November 17, 2016, 04:38:00 am
the new panels are comming:
http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1 (http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1)
currently under construction!

Quote
The Solar Roadways Live Cam is temporarily unavailable while the site is under construction.  The SR3 panels are being replaced with the newest SR3.1 panels. We are also upgrading our Internet connection which will provide you with an enhanced viewing experience.

How convenient!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Kean on November 17, 2016, 05:18:07 am
They'll probably put up their work tent over the site during the install anyway
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on November 17, 2016, 06:01:40 am
the new panels are comming:

http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1 (http://www.sandpointidaho.gov/visiting-sandpoint/solar-roadways#ad-image-1)

currently under construction!

Solar Roadways is likely under contract to replace non functioning panels:

"System warranty, including repair/replacement of defective panels at SR cost for a one year after installation"

"SR represents and warrants the solar panels being installed against defects, as provided for all its products (see Exhibit A).  A defective panel is defined as a panel that does not function as designed:  the heating elements fail; the LED functionality fails; they don’t produce energy, etc.  Cosmetic defects such as scratches or bubbles do not constitute a defective panel.  Each panel contains 336 LEDs, 56 of which are  redundant.  Per  the  LEDs,  a  defective  panel  is  defined  as  one  where  over  five  percent  (5%)  of  the  LEDs do not function"

http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/Home/ShowDocument?id=3720 (http://www.cityofsandpoint.com/Home/ShowDocument?id=3720)

Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world. 

I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.

Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.

Yeah I think it's net positive, by a lot, for the city.  They put in a few thousand dollars (bulk appears to be paid by state, not city) and in return they get a ton of 'positive' coverage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on November 17, 2016, 07:40:46 am
Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world. 
I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.
Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.

Yup. Between mine and Thudef00t's videos the town's name got exposed to half a million people maybe?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on November 17, 2016, 12:22:11 pm
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=271060;image)

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on November 17, 2016, 01:12:54 pm
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=271060;image)

Woah!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on November 17, 2016, 01:44:24 pm
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-632-solar-roadways-are-bullshit!/?action=dlattach;attach=271060;image)



===>  WATCH THIS SPACE  <===
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on November 17, 2016, 01:51:47 pm
That is a huge improvement.  Solar generation is unchanged (still zero), but mains power consumption has been reduced massively.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on November 17, 2016, 01:54:26 pm
An astute observation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on November 17, 2016, 02:02:15 pm
That is a huge improvement.  Solar generation is unchanged (still zero), but mains power consumption has been reduced massively.

 :clap:

Well played Sir. Well played.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: FloFo on November 17, 2016, 02:06:38 pm
That is a huge improvement.  Solar generation is unchanged (still zero), but mains power consumption has been reduced massively.

Not to forget the non-slip properties were improved.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: AndyC_772 on November 17, 2016, 06:45:28 pm
Longer MTBF too  :horse:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on November 17, 2016, 07:16:40 pm
Or, perhaps the City of Sandpoint has grown weary of broadcasting public humiliation around the world. 
I don't see how it reflects poorly on the city of Sandpoint. People all over the world know the City now. Including me. It looks like a perfectly nice place from the reading I did. And I did find out a little bit about the place as a direct result of the solar roadways experiment. Publicity gold.
Plenty of worse ways american towns get publicity in Australia. No-one has died for a start.

Yup. Between mine and Thudef00t's videos the town's name got exposed to half a million people maybe?

The parking lot at the ski hill was packed to capacity *before* the advent of solar discotheque. Sandpoint is well-known.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on November 18, 2016, 01:06:45 am
Perhaps - but now that it is on the global scene....


(http://www.dartmouthpartners.com/assets/boat.png)
You're going to need a bigger parking lot.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Barny on November 18, 2016, 06:20:23 am
@Andy / Flo:
If you look carefully, you'll see that there is a little difference in high of the old and new surface.
It looks like something between 3 to 5 cm.

I think they changed the fundation too after talking to someone who knew what he is doing or take a look at Google.

Dont be afraid, the fun will go on with a new version of cells.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ludzinc on November 18, 2016, 06:30:50 am
@Andy / Flo:
If you look carefully, you'll see that there is a little difference in high of the old and new surface.
It looks like something between 3 to 5 cm.

I think they changed the fundation too after talking to someone who knew what he is doing or take a look at Google.

Dont be afraid, the fun will go on with a new version of cells.

Oh cool!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on November 18, 2016, 08:20:44 am
From my still-running video recording, just now (and yes, I have a recording of all the work leading up to this state):

Youtube post please!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on November 18, 2016, 11:11:14 am
Youtube post please!

Pff, when have you ever posted a video for my entertainment? Oh wait, I forgot about those 944 videos. :P

Sure thing! Here you go :). The recordings have reached 120GB by now, glad something truly interesting has finally happened.

My recording terminated at 6:18am November 17th (Sandpoint time). This was always a regular occurence, but my script requires the original webpage to be up to restart the recording, so whatever's happening right now isn't be recorded by me. Annoyingly, there probably still is a URL out there that would continue the feed, but it's a URL I can't know (good ol' security through obscurity.)

So LabSpokane, now we need you to maintain coverage!  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hCVAzAm-30 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hCVAzAm-30)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on November 18, 2016, 11:36:09 am
Im not sure if this is supposed to be the stream, found it in the cache, its dead:

//v.angelcam.com/iframe?v=n8l9z0k9y0&amp;autoplay=1

Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rs20 on November 18, 2016, 11:39:08 am
Im not sure if this is supposed to be the stream, found it in the cache, its dead:

//v.angelcam.com/iframe?v=n8l9z0k9y0&amp;autoplay=1

It changes continually, which is why I went to the effort of writing the script to scrap the original webpage. So no, it's probably not dead, just on a different, unknowable URL.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on November 18, 2016, 06:19:13 pm
That is actually another real issue. Right now there is no sense stealing asphalt from the roadways, but copper wiring gets stolen here by homeless bastards all the time. Imagine if they can get their hands on the road surface?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Towger on November 18, 2016, 07:22:08 pm
Great video. Dodgy looking characters wandering around in the night and a fine example of parking.

Over here slipping on the path and suing the council is more lucrative. If you are poor you get free legal aid, so nothing to loose.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: bktemp on November 18, 2016, 07:35:14 pm
That is actually another real issue. Right now there is no sense stealing asphalt from the roadways, but copper wiring gets stolen here by homeless bastards all the time. Imagine if they can get their hands on the road surface?
If somebody wants to steal the wiring from the solar roadways installation, they have already been pulled out and put in the trash bin (last few minutes of the video)!

Does this mean the new panels will have all pins connected and will be fully functional (producing power and the LEDs will be synchronised)? Otherwise it does not make sense to me why they need to replace the wiring.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: jancumps on November 23, 2016, 09:17:06 pm
Indiegogo podcast with Solar Roadways:
https://go.indiegogo.com/blog/2016/11/solar-roadways-clean-energy.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialmediaowned&utm_campaign=solarroadways_iggmediasource&utm_content=blog&r=twt00005
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on November 29, 2016, 02:49:19 am
I really wonder if they will show the energy used by the heating elements, once the website is working. I bet they will only show the energy generated by the panels, which, of course, will be positive but they will hide the energy consumed by leds and heating.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on November 29, 2016, 05:22:53 am
Is there any info on when this thing is going back online? They will probably skip the winter. Convenient, is not it?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on November 29, 2016, 05:39:00 am
according to their time plan it should be replaced in November. I think they said in the podcast they want to show how the panels are snow and ice free. (they actually revealed a few details about the new SR4 panel in the podcast)

I just checked the weather in Sandpoint, its getting cold!
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on November 29, 2016, 05:43:20 am
according to their time plan it should be replaced in November.
Well, it is 2 days until November is over. Cutting it a bit close, I see.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: LabSpokane on December 01, 2016, 12:01:18 am
SR says webcam will be back when their 3.1 install is complete, but giving no dates. Until they say they're ready, there's no point going to Sandpoint for a look.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: ataradov on December 01, 2016, 12:11:22 am
Well, in real life people expect dates. People miss dates all the time, it is life, deal with it. But not setting a date is an amateur hour.

I wish I could say to my employer "Hard at work, go away".
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on December 01, 2016, 12:41:35 am
on the SR energy monitoring website (cant find the link anymore) it said that the panels will be upgraded to 3.1 in November.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Delta on December 01, 2016, 12:47:44 am
Maybe they are waiting for their Batteriseroos to arrive?
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: johndoe123 on December 03, 2016, 03:20:35 am
The new sandpoint panels
https://twitter.com/SolarRoadways/status/804840586108932097 (https://twitter.com/SolarRoadways/status/804840586108932097)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: lpaseen on December 05, 2016, 01:31:03 pm
on the SR energy monitoring website (cant find the link anymore) it said that the panels will be upgraded to 3.1 in November.
did they say 2016 ? Maybe they meant 2017 or 2032 or so :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: rrinker on December 06, 2016, 01:46:01 am
 Maybe they've been taking advice from the Batteroo management team...
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: nuclearcat on December 09, 2016, 08:53:41 am
Solar roadways officially promoted over element14 post: https://www.element14.com/community/community/applications/industrial-automation-space/blog/2016/11/11/the-latest-release-of-solar-road-s-panels-could-prove-promising-for-the-future-of-renewable-energy?CMP=SOM-FACEBOOK-PRG-BLOG-CATWELL-SOLARROADS-COMM-E14 (https://www.element14.com/community/community/applications/industrial-automation-space/blog/2016/11/11/the-latest-release-of-solar-road-s-panels-could-prove-promising-for-the-future-of-renewable-energy?CMP=SOM-FACEBOOK-PRG-BLOG-CATWELL-SOLARROADS-COMM-E14)

WTF?
 :-\
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: tpowell1830 on December 18, 2016, 05:13:19 pm
I don't have the gift of working through all of the math, etc. like Dave and others, but the whole idea of solar panels on roadways is an expensive disaster at best from an economical point of view.  My question is: Why on the roadway? Why not beside the roadway or above the roadway? I like solar energy from photoelectric panels, but common sense should enter at some point.

The losses by placing on the roadway should be obvious to the most casual observer.  Roads get very dirty== LOSS, accidents happen with large metal objects on road ways which breaks  GLASS== LOSS, Vehicles are not transparent to sunlight == LOSS.

Placing the solar panels above or beside the roads where possible would make more sense, but the ROI is still too tiny to be feasible at this time.  I could see this as a way to power the lights on large roadways, but, as someone said in another reply, electricity from the power companies is cheaper and easier to use.

Spend the time and engineering on something that would be more feasible, such as hydrogen cells. I recall that there were some prototypes built and were producing electricity in a feasibilty study here in the states. What happened to these? 10 - 12 years ago there were pie-in-the-sky projections for solving energy issues. Where are they now? 

PEACE==>T
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 18, 2016, 06:12:07 pm
Has anyone actually done a working prototype of this, by working I mean that all the parts that are suppose to be in it actually perform.  Ex: the solar panels.  The current setup they have does not even work up to their basic specs lol.

I was thinking it would make a fun project to build a small prototype in small scale just to get a real world example of performance when all the components actually work.  What I'm thinking is a wood insulated box about 4 inches high, maybe 1 foot by 1 foot, with a removable glass top.  Inside right up against the glass would be a solar panel or cells, inside would be the charge controller, a battery, small heater, and a raspberry PI to oversee everything.  Maybe some LED strips going around the solar panel or something.

Goal would be to stick this outside on top of the snow. (these -30's would be a perfect time too in order to show real world situation and not ideal conditions)   The RPI would monitor the whole system, such as plot outside and inside temp, solar voltage, battery voltage and other potential data and basically see how it performs.  My guess: poorly.  But would be fun to do just for a proof of concept.

I don't really want to spend much money on something like this though, but I wonder how many people would be interested in this especially general public that still think the system might work.

As a side note how well do discharged gel cells do in -40?  Because this experiment would involve that.    :P
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: EEVblog on December 18, 2016, 10:23:12 pm
I don't have the gift of working through all of the math, etc. like Dave and others, but the whole idea of solar panels on roadways is an expensive disaster at best from an economical point of view.  My question is: Why on the roadway? Why not beside the roadway or above the roadway?

Because then:
a) It would not make the media
b) You would not be branded a genius for "inventing" the idea.
c) Politicians would not be celebrated for promoting "innovative" technology
d) You wouldn't get any money form the public crowd
e) You wouldn't get any money from government technology grants

Solar Roadways is a very clever way to extract money from the public and politicians, all while getting famous and lots of media coverage.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 18, 2016, 10:53:09 pm
I don't have the gift of working through all of the math, etc. like Dave and others, but the whole idea of solar panels on roadways is an expensive disaster at best from an economical point of view.  My question is: Why on the roadway? Why not beside the roadway or above the roadway?

Because then:
a) It would not make the media
b) You would not be branded a genius for "inventing" the idea.
c) Politicians would not be celebrated for promoting "innovative" technology
d) You wouldn't get any money form the public crowd
e) You wouldn't get any money from government technology grants

Solar Roadways is a very clever way to extract money from the public and politicians, all while getting famous and lots of media coverage.

Sad but true, and that seems to be the trend with a lot of these "ideas".  Like the solar spin cone thingies.

People keep trying to "reinvent" solar but regular panels in optimal areas like roofs and fields is always going to be the better way.  Improvements on that may be valid though (tracking techniques, ways to make snow fall off automatically etc).
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: Brumby on December 18, 2016, 11:06:43 pm
What Dave has said.

"Interesting" sells when a new idea comes to town.  "Practical" only comes to the party when reality bites - usually in the hip pocket.

Some people don't pay attention to the warnings of others or signs on the wall.  They may even ignore the growling and barking of the beast itself and venture forth.  You will then find the optimists that have felt the fangs sink into their very being, but shrug this off as teething problems or growing pains,  Then there are those that will exsanguinate, still holding on to the belief that the whole concept was sabotaged by big business.

.... but you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be someone ready to capitalise on every step of the saga.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: f4eru on December 22, 2016, 05:15:27 pm
Hello,

Just in time for Christmas, Colas get up their demonstrator !
http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html (http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html)

One lane on one kilometer of real road. The minister inaugurated it.

They speak about 17Euro/Wp in this demonstrator phase compared to 1,3Euro/Wp for ground based solar.
Maintenance and lifetime unknown.

The top encapsulant is not glass but "resin" (epoxy?), which will probably not last very long, let's see.

Now the fun begins :)

Now let the subventions hit the fan !!

I live far away unfortunately, else I would have a look and a drive on it
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: NANDBlog on December 22, 2016, 05:52:22 pm
Hello,

Just in time for Christmas, Colas get up their demonstrator !
http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html (http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/21/en-normandie-une-route-solaire-au-banc-d-essai_5052352_3244.html)

One lane on one kilometer of real road. The minister inaugurated it.

They speak about 17Euro/Wp in this demonstrator phase compared to 1,3Euro/Wp for ground based solar.
Maintenance and lifetime unknown.

The top encapsulant is not glass but "resin" (epoxy?), which will probably not last very long, let's see.

Now the fun begins :)

Now let the subventions hit the fan !!

I live far away unfortunately, else I would have a look and a drive on it
People making these roads from public money should be criminalized and put in prison for fraud.
They even said, they need to convert 1 million km of road to solar, and then the country would be totally solar powered. Anyone wondering, that is only 5 000 000 000 000 EUR, or the total government budget for 4 years. At least if they do it, they will be the first country to go bankrupt because of electricity generation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #632 - Solar Roadways Are BULLSHIT!
Post by: dunkemhigh on December 22, 2016, 06:55:17 pm
Quote
they need to convert 1 million km of road to solar, and then the country wo