Author Topic: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown  (Read 31586 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« on: October 01, 2014, 01:40:54 pm »
What's inside the new FLIR TG165 Visual IR Thermometer / Thermal Camera using the new Lepton sensor?
Does it have a calibration shutter?
How does it compare to the FLIR ONE & FLIR E4?
Does it have any extra capability built in ready to be hacked?
How easy is it to open? (SPOILER - it's a BASTARD!)

Datasheets:
Lepton Module: http://www.flir.com/uploadedFiles/CVS_Americas/Cores_and_Components_NEW/Products/Uncooled_Cores/Lepton/FLIR-Lepton-DataBrief.pdf

http://www.st.com/web/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1031/LN1565

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:42:39 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 02:09:55 pm »
That coil looks like am electromagnet for a shutter.

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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 02:13:01 pm »


Alexander.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 02:21:24 pm »
That coil looks like am electromagnet for a shutter.

That didn't occur to me.
I was under the impression that the Lepton sensor didn't have a built in shutter.
Now that I check, it is different from the photo of sensor in the datasheet.
I'll check when back in the lab.

 

Offline Sparkey_500

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 02:29:11 pm »
Perhaps you could 3D print a better case. But I have a feeling you are going to do something else with the lepton.
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 02:35:57 pm »
Agreed.  Kill whoever designed the plastic assembly.
 

Offline marcan

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 02:39:08 pm »
Mike's unit from the FLIR One didn't have the metal module on the front, but did have two pins on some flex leading to it. He suggested those would be used for a shutter version, with an extra shutter add-on on top. Looks like you got the version with a shutter :-) (which suddenly makes a hacked firmware a lot more appealing, since it should be able to get decent absolute temperature measurements from the Lepton!)
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 02:44:48 pm »
You can see the shutter moving at 19:20-19:40 in the video, when Dave was waving at himself - look at the sensor when the screen freezes.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 02:50:39 pm »
Mike's unit from the FLIR One didn't have the metal module on the front, but did have two pins on some flex leading to it. He suggested those would be used for a shutter version, with an extra shutter add-on on top.

Ah ok, I didn't watch all of Mike's teardown. I do recall the ONE had a large external shutter?
That makes me instantly wonder that this "micro shutter" is probably not the best performer?, otherwise why wouldn't they have used it in the FLIR ONE?
I'm going to run some experiments on it tomorrow.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 02:52:08 pm »
You can see the shutter moving at 19:20-19:40 in the video, when Dave was waving at himself - look at the sensor when the screen freezes.

I see it!
Nice spotting!
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 02:55:48 pm »
You can see the shutter moving at 19:20-19:40 in the video, when Dave was waving at himself - look at the sensor when the screen freezes.
!!
So that settles that. But, I'm still as puzzled as Dave as to why they would put a shutter on it, though. They don't need it for the application.

Likely, the intended method to access those screws is to actually remove the front glass panel, possibly using heat. This is common for example in certain smartphones. Or, it may just have been designed to basically be indestructible, and otherwise disposable.

The 8 MHz is likely not used directly as the CPU clock. The datasheet for STM32F103 specifies that it has a PLL which takes a 4 to 16 MHz input, so you would never clock it directly at the CPU frequency anyway. As for the bizarro device, you guessed it, the traces are snaking off to the 32 kHz oscillator pins, according to the same datasheet.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 02:58:37 pm »
It's obvious those screws go in behind the display window, maybe they just put a bit too much glue on the window?
Maybe try a suction cup to remove the window rather than going in from the side? - once you get the window off it should be a doddle to open.
The temp sensor will be thermopile not pyroelectric - the latter only senses temp  changes
The shutter mech looks like it just unclips
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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 03:01:15 pm »
You can see the shutter moving at 19:20-19:40 in the video, when Dave was waving at himself - look at the sensor when the screen freezes.
!!
So that settles that. But, I'm still as puzzled as Dave as to why they would put a shutter on it, though. They don't need it for the application.

The only reason to need it is if it's looking at a static scene, but as it doesn't have a tripod mount that's unlikely.   
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2014, 03:04:23 pm »
So that settles that. But, I'm still as puzzled as Dave as to why they would put a shutter on it, though. They don't need it for the application.

I didn't think so either, as the Lepton after all is supposed to have automatic temperature compensation.
Given that it seems a random time between calibrations from what I've seen so far, I can only presume that it calibrates when it detects a large enough drift in the sensor. Possibly based on a temp sensor in the device or somewhere else?
If that's the case then I should be able to demonstrate that with some thermal chamber testing to increase the rate. Will try that tomorrow I think.



 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 03:06:27 pm »
It's obvious those screws go in behind the display window, maybe they just put a bit too much glue on the window?
Maybe try a suction cup to remove the window rather than going in from the side? - once you get the window off it should be a doddle to open.

The rubber looks like it's molded over the window edges.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 03:06:59 pm »
The only reason to need it is if it's looking at a static scene, but as it doesn't have a tripod mount that's unlikely.

It does have a tripod mount.
 

Offline SpiderElectronics

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 03:17:35 pm »
I agree with Mike, you should have pulled off the screen cover. It would have come out.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 03:19:29 pm »
Is that shutter capable of calibrating the sensor?

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Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 03:30:08 pm »
The only reason to need it is if it's looking at a static scene, but as it doesn't have a tripod mount that's unlikely.

It does have a tripod mount.
So maybe that's ultimately the reason. Maybe it doesn't calibrate periodically, but rather based on the contents of the scene, somehow, for example a long timeout, but more frequent recalibrations if the scene is mostly static.

I don't think we saw all 4 sides of the sensor in the video. I saw a pair of gold traces going up to the top of the module along one side. Check if there's another pair on one of the sides, which would indicate there's a temperature sensor connected as well.

As for whether the lens assembly contains a Fresnel lens, you could always look into the lens assembly using the Lepton sensor to see if and how the image is distorted.
Is that shutter capable of calibrating the sensor?

Alexander.
It's referred to as a calibration shutter in this document, so yes, that must be it. If there's no temperature sensor on the module, that would indicate that it's only doing non-uniformity correction (for static scenes) and not temperature calibration.

http://www.eevblog.com/files/FLIR-TG165/TG165_Comparison_FINAL.pdf
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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 03:31:43 pm »
The amount of destruction required to open that device was painful to watch and whoever designed it like that deserves to be taken out into the parking lot and shot. Twice. Just to make sure that they don't do something like that again >:(
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Offline firewalker

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 03:33:23 pm »
Maybe there is a trick to dismantle it. E.g. Slightly heat the window and suck it off.

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Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 03:52:20 pm »
Thanks for the teardown!
That brings me back to the question from the mailback thread: Why do they need two sensors? The lepton core can measure absolute temperature with manual shutter (at least the FLIR ONE can). So it should be even better with automatic shutter.
 

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 03:56:20 pm »
Thanks for the teardown!
That brings me back to the question from the mailback thread: Why do they need two sensors? The lepton core can measure absolute temperature with manual shutter (at least the FLIR ONE can). So it should be even better with automatic shutter.
Accuracy and field of view. Look at the relative sizes of the lenses - for the thermopile, you can use a large, cheap plastic fresnel lens.
Even with a shutter, it will only give accurate temps once shutter temp has stabilised, so if you pull it out of a cold toolbox, it could easily take several mins to give a stable reading.
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Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2014, 04:01:10 pm »
> Why do they need two sensors

I would say this is a pretty strong eenforcement by flir themselves that a using the lepton itself to measure the temp even with a shutter is inaccurate and useless.


 
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 04:03:57 pm »
I suspect the main reason is temperature range. The thermopile sensor in the TG165 is rated -25 - 380 °C whereas the Lepton sensor (or at least the Flir One, according to the comparison PDF linked above) is only rated 0 - 100 °C which may be limiting for some uses.
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Offline Dave Turner

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2014, 04:24:29 pm »
On a different issue did my eyes deceive me or are the two traces from the ARM chip above/between ST (first 2 characters of the chip description) curved lines rather than 45 degree angled traces as the rest of the board?

If so, why would that be?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2014, 04:27:30 pm »
Maybe there is a trick to dismantle it. E.g. Slightly heat the window and suck it off.

Alexander.

Most likely, like any modern touch screen with thermoplastic adhesive. Would be easy to do with any cell shop tool set. Now we see how it is put together I am sure I could open it with only a small screwdriver set, a hair drier and a little work with a spudger. You probably would be able to put the Dave tested unit together with a little bit of work with 2 part polyurethane flexible adhesive, like Pratley flexiseal ( should be available in Bunnings in AUS) to replace the rubber seal and hold the pieces together.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2014, 04:29:17 pm »
Accuracy was my initial guess. But the FLIR one is specified at +/-3°C. That is good enough, the TG165 is only slightly better. The extended temperature range makes sense. Can the FLIR one only measure up to 100°C or is its accuracy only specified upto 100°C?
50° FOV gives a spot size of about 2:1 when avaraging all pixels, but you could use digital zoom, using only a few pixels to get a similar 24:1 spot size. Or do I miss something?

I dont't get it, why they didn't simply built a standalone camera around the lepton core like Mike did? With automatic shutter it should be accurate enough for the lower price segment.
Adding the thermopile sensor with all the manually adjusted lasers only adds more costs to the system. Without that they could sell it quite a bit cheaper.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2014, 04:31:56 pm »
On a different issue did my eyes deceive me or are the two traces from the ARM chip above/between ST (first 2 characters of the chip description) curved lines rather than 45 degree angled traces as the rest of the board?

If so, why would that be?
I think those are the differential pair going to the micro USB connector. USB requires some special layout techniques like cotrolled impedance.
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2014, 04:39:40 pm »
Indeed, pins 70 and 71 are the USB pins. You don't need curved traces for USB 1.0 (12 Mbps) but that's probably what their EDA package does by default when specifying matched length traces, so they just went with it.
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Offline ElektronikLabor

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2014, 07:07:48 pm »
I know Artlav mentioned this already; I just want to show you the shutter so you don't need to search for it:

« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 07:19:29 pm by medvedev »
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2014, 07:37:02 pm »
Actually the STM32F103 has to run at 48 Mhz for the USB, so the 8 Mhz main crystal is PLL-ed up.
The small thingie with the label is in fact the 32Khz RTC crystal. I've seen similar windowed on an older sytem, it was relatively hard to get a replacement for it with the same footprint. I'm not sure at all, why they would use that old construction on a new design. (although this looks smaller than the one I had)

I believe the unpopulated connector which you called a power connector is some sort of communication interface. If you look closely, id goes through several transistors marked with Qn, and it goes to pin 51,52,53 and 54 which is "SPI2_NSS / I2S2_WS / I2C2_SMBA / USART3_CK/
TIM1_BKIN" and so on... So it is kinda like some sort of proprietary communication interface? I meal why would you connect them together with transistors? I'm curious. It is funny to see how they not populated the transistors but they did not bothered with the resistors. Hey! Extra 0.1 cents to save!
I believe the programming is done through TP10-13 on the side of the board. Of it is connected to the SDW port. It should be 4 pins, power, ground reset and a single wire to read write the MCU.
 

Offline ckambiselis

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2014, 08:06:00 pm »
Very nice tear down Dave, what is the range of the Lepton sensor, from how far can you distinguish for example a human? Are you thinking about selling it, maybe I can rehouse the electronics to a waterproof case and use it as a basic thermal imaging camera for our volunteer FD I'm part of?
 

Online Fraser

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 08:57:30 pm »
I am seeing a lot of comment regarding the use of a shutter and its purpose.

I read people calling it a calibration shutter and think it is worth stating what it is and why it exists.

The shutter that moves across the microbolometers field of view is used for Non Uniformity Corrrection, hence the name NUC shutter. It is not a calibration shutter as such.  The camera is calibrated at the factory and a calibration table loaded into its flash memory for system reference. As the camera and microbolometer change temperature, the calibration table provides correction factors for the data coming from the Read Out Chip. If this was not done, the microbolometer would be hopelessly inaccurate as it is basically like an array of thermistors.

The microbolometer pixels are unique individuals when it comes to their Delta temperature characteristics. Their characteristics and response curves are captured at the time of calibration and this forms part of the fixed calibration table.

Unfortunately, even the calibration table is not enough to tame the unruly microbolometer pixels. If the camera software detects a deviation in ambient temperature or excessive drift in the microbolometer pixels, it will initiate an NUC event. The NUC shutter is of a known temperature (measured by chassis or lens temperature). It is placed in front of the microbolometer and ALL pixel outputs are equalised against the shutter. Now this may be considered "calibration" but that isn't really its purpose as calibration is the factory process and NUC is just setting the nominal baseline of all pixels. To do this well, the OS needs to know what the shutter temperature is otherwise it would be reliant on equalising the pixel outputs on the average of the readings which isn't a great idea. If the shutter is at 26.3 C, the OS sets all Pixel drift compensation values to provide 26.3 C as the interpreted output from the ROC. Calibration ? not really, more compensation against a known reference. How accurate that reference is another matter. 

Without an NUC shutter, the OEM needs far more sophisticated temperature compensation and microbolometer characterisation in the design. There are TICs that do not have an NUC shutter and my NEC AVIO cameras allow the user to set the minimum NUC period or even switch it off. Those cameras microbolometers are actively temperature stabilised though.

Without an NUC capability, or comprehensive microbolometer Delta T characterisation, the microbolometer will display signs of individual pixel drift that gets worse with time. As such the image can become 'mottled' in appearance and unreliable for measurement purposes.

The FLIR ONE is little more than a toy and would not reasonably be expected to provide industry accurate measurements. Now the TG165 is a strange situation. With the built in NUC shutter the LEPTON should have been able to provide microbolometer based temperature measurement. FLIR decided to use IR thermometer technology instead for the measurement function. I do not know their reasoning for this. The LEPTON internal calibration table may just be too crude for measurement purposes ?

Aurora
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 09:41:30 pm by Aurora »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 09:36:24 pm »
There  is some info on the Lepton's calibration stuff in the data sheet
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3wmCw6bdPqFdXI1bEFnOHdWZTQ/edit
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 09:58:10 pm »
I believe the unpopulated connector which you called a power connector is some sort of communication interface.

If it is then why are they using wide power-like traces?
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 10:33:20 pm »
I believe the unpopulated connector which you called a power connector is some sort of communication interface.

If it is then why are they using wide power-like traces?
The transistors look like an H-bridge connected to that 2-pin connector.
Sounder? (Fluke has an alarm mode I think)
Alternative shutter mechanism ? (but I'd also expect to see a temp sensor)

 
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Online Fraser

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 10:47:31 pm »
@Mike,

Nice datasheet  :-+

Interesting reading. This is the sort of microbolometer core data that normally requires signing of an NDA before release. Thanks for sharing the url with us.

I note the term Flat Field Correction is used so I appear to have my lines crossed between NUC and FFC. The shutter has always been an NUC shutter to me but I suppose the purpose and way that it works is the same so no great issue.

I note with interest that the LEPTON can be supplied with OPTIONAL temperature stabilised output. An interesting statement but I am not yet certain what they mean by that. I will have to read the datasheet properly to se if they explain.

Aurora
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:02:23 pm by Aurora »
 

Offline eneuro

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 10:54:35 pm »
There  is some info on the Lepton's calibration stuff in the data sheet
Nice fresh 1 week old only latest Lepton  44 pages datasheet ;)
It should be easier understand Flir's patents now.

BTW: In your Flir One teardown 1st video maybe do you remember part numbers/manufacturer of this visual digital camera used together with Lepton module to see its basic specs?
Which distance might be between those cameras lenses holes?

I will try estimate based on known dimensions of Lepton module, but it is interesting how far away those modules are in Flir One, while it looks like there is some shift between those 2 captured IR & visual images and there is no additional optics, but probably software adjustments if any or assuming that such small distance does not affect too much those Flir MSX edge/contours overlays on output thermal image?
It is interesting if we tried to capture small high temp spot cleary visible is it any visible displacement in output image between its thermal image and those overlayed edges/countours?
I was exepcting some kind of additional optics to be able catch the same IR & visual image -not by shifted IR & visual cameras  ???
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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 11:06:37 pm »
There  is some info on the Lepton's calibration stuff in the data sheet
Nice fresh 1 week old only latest Lepton  44 pages datasheet ;)
It should be easier understand Flir's patents now.

BTW: In your Flir One teardown 1st video maybe do you remember part numbers/manufacturer of this visual digital camera used together with Lepton module to see its basic specs?
Which distance might be between those cameras lenses holes?

I will try estimate based on known dimensions of Lepton module, but it is interesting how far away those modules are in Flir One, while it looks like there is some shift between those 2 captured IR & visual images and there is no additional optics, but probably software adjustments if any or assuming that such small distance does not affect too much those Flir MSX edge/contours overlays on output thermal image?
It is interesting if we tried to capture small high temp spot cleary visible is it any visible displacement in output image between its thermal image and those overlayed edges/countours?
I was exepcting some kind of additional optics to be able catch the same IR & visual image -not by shifted IR & visual cameras  ???
I think the distance range is fixed on the standard F1 app but there is also a "closeup" app that allows the shift to be adjusted maually.
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Offline Wilksey

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 12:32:48 am »
Was that donated or did you buy it Dave?

It's a lot of money to tear apart like that if you bought it!

We've seen you take it apart, but can you put it back together?  :)
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 02:01:05 am »
I am seeing a lot of comment regarding the use of a shutter and its purpose.

I read people calling it a calibration shutter and think it is worth stating what it is and why it exists.

The shutter that moves across the microbolometers field of view is used for Non Uniformity Corrrection, hence the name NUC shutter. It is not a calibration shutter as such.  The camera is calibrated at the factory and a calibration table loaded into its flash memory for system reference. As the camera and microbolometer change temperature, the calibration table provides correction factors for the data coming from the Read Out Chip. If this was not done, the microbolometer would be hopelessly inaccurate as it is basically like an array of thermistors.

...
That is all known (well at least to me, as well as Dave and Mike of course). However, the Lepton sensor contains new fancy, patented technology that allows it to NUC in software, as long as there is movement in the frame, without a shutter, because it can make assumptions about the data. The remaining reasons for having a shutter is if the camera is expected to look at static scene for extended periods (which makes sense for the TG165 since it has a tripod mount) or if absolute temperature calibration is needed (which is not the case for the TG165).

The FLIR ONE is little more than a toy and would not reasonably be expected to provide industry accurate measurements. Now the TG165 is a strange situation. With the built in NUC shutter the LEPTON should have been able to provide microbolometer based temperature measurement. FLIR decided to use IR thermometer technology instead for the measurement function. I do not know their reasoning for this. The LEPTON internal calibration table may just be too crude for measurement purposes ?
That is possible, however as I speculated in the other thread I suspect the issue is temperature range, as outlined in this PDF:

http://www.eevblog.com/files/FLIR-TG165/TG165_Comparison_FINAL.pdf

The TG165's thermopile sensor is rated -25 - 380 °C whereas the Flir One (and presumably the Lepton sensor itself) is rated for only 0 - 100 °C.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2014, 02:14:16 am »
With the built in NUC shutter the LEPTON should have been able to provide microbolometer based temperature measurement. FLIR decided to use IR thermometer technology instead for the measurement function. I do not know their reasoning for this. The LEPTON internal calibration table may just be too crude for measurement purposes ?

Perhaps. But I think more likely because it essentially becomes a smaller and cheaper E4, and Flir didn't want that.
The Lepton doesn't provide the same extended temp range that the existing PIR sensors can offer.
Also, don't underestimate the market for people that are comfortable with their existing device, in this case the basic PIR sensor.
Could also be like why Fluke make an inferior averaging responding version of their 28-II meter, because some customers have procedures written for average responding meters and don't want to change anything.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 02:19:49 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2014, 02:17:55 am »
That is all known (well at least to me, as well as Dave and Mike of course). However, the Lepton sensor contains new fancy, patented technology that allows it to NUC in software, as long as there is movement in the frame, without a shutter, because it can make assumptions about the data.

Yes, and that is why I didn't think twice that the Lepton might have had a built-in physical micro shutter (or in this case, a purpose designed clip-on attachment)

Quote
The remaining reasons for having a shutter is if the camera is expected to look at static scene for extended periods (which makes sense for the TG165 since it has a tripod mount) or if absolute temperature calibration is needed (which is not the case for the TG165).

I suspect that is the only reason left. Yet, once again, I didn't think this was a usage case for this device which is usually switch on, aim, press trigger, get measurement, switch off.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2014, 03:03:39 am »
They probably got the same guy to design the case that designed the Keurig coffee machine case.  The #1 tool you need to get into a Keurig is a dremel with a cutoff wheel.  And that's only if you want to do the minimal damage possible.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2014, 03:13:51 am »
They probably got the same guy to design the case that designed the Keurig coffee machine case.  The #1 tool you need to get into a Keurig is a dremel with a cutoff wheel.  And that's only if you want to do the minimal damage possible.

That's why you get an AeroPress for around $30 and make the best coffee ever ;)
 

Offline bitblt

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2014, 03:48:42 am »
That TG165 teardown was one of the funniest EEVblog videos I've seen yet!  Absolutely hilarious watching Dave completely destroy (cosmetically) that brand new $500 thermal imager, all in the name of EE curiosity.  I could definitely hear high pitch frustration in his voice after the third fail.   :-DD

Then camera suddenly cuts to Dave with two shell pieces apart.  (I guess Dave edited out when he went medieval with a crowbar (prybar)?)  It was an entertaining and informative EEVblog teardown none the less.  Great job.  :-+ 

Let me know if you decide to auction the TG165 carcass on ebay as "tested working, sold as-is".   I'll bite.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2014, 08:06:34 am »
I believe the unpopulated connector which you called a power connector is some sort of communication interface.

If it is then why are they using wide power-like traces?
The transistors look like an H-bridge connected to that 2-pin connector.
Sounder? (Fluke has an alarm mode I think)
Alternative shutter mechanism ? (but I'd also expect to see a temp sensor)

 
That is absolutely correct, an H bridge makes 100% more sense.
 

Offline morpheus

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #48 on: October 02, 2014, 12:22:53 pm »
Wow.. Do you still need that thing? :) I dont think that i can afforn new one :D
 

Offline ddavidebor

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #49 on: October 02, 2014, 01:12:24 pm »
At 19:32 to the video, exactly when you say "yep" the sensor lens became blank and the image froze.
So it seems like it has a shutter!
Davide Bortolami,
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Offline mxmarek

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2014, 01:45:12 pm »
Maybe the PIR sensor lens is screwed with that black aluminum tube from the front?
I'm curious how it looks from the inside side
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2014, 04:27:03 pm »
It is a lens aasembly that has the front IR cover, a plasric fresnel lens, a pinhole to set the focus and field of view and then the sensor. All the optics are assembled, then held for alignment with screws. After setting and verification of alignment the whole lot is painted with a glue and a solvent, to weld the plastic parts together into a single part so they do not drift or come loose with time or vibration. Screws are for preliminary alignment, the actual holding is with solvent welding on the lens tube itself, and with black rubber reinforced cyanacuralate glue on the actual laser diode holders and the lens alignment tube. That stuff will not let go, the plastic will always fail first, it is not possible to undo that. You can see the bloom from the glue and the remains of the accelerator used to get a fast cure on the parts.
 

Offline Tidwell420

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2014, 05:03:12 pm »
I'm curious if there were screws behind the plastic that surrounds the buttons and protects the screen
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2014, 06:04:58 pm »
Yes there are, you just heat the screen up gently and it will release. Just like the Ifixit smartphone repair videos where you warm up the broken screen or touch panel to remove it.
 

Offline TheRevva

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2014, 09:20:10 pm »
It's become obvious to me that Dave needs some additional 'lab tools'...

1: An oxy-acetylene set (with a flame cutter tip of course)
2: A decent sledgehammer (preferably one with so much mass in the head that it's exceedingly difficult to even LIFT the darned thing)
3: Several containers of assorted universal solvents - Some HF acid would have helped a lot in getting access to those pesky screws behind the screen... Simply DISSOLVE the damned screen!)
4: Some bigger drill bits (Starting from 25mm and working UP from there in 25mm increments)
5: A 'portable' jackhammer
6: An assortment of explosives - Dynamite, ANNM and more (Optional addition solely for the BEST labs)
7: Possibly a slight 'upgrade' to the labs first aid kit???  <Given the above tools it seems logical>

Of course, any self respecting DECENT lab would ALREADY have access to an array of such tools. 

<Grins>
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2014, 09:32:10 pm »
..and an X-Ray machine
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Offline bitblt

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2014, 09:57:02 pm »
Well perhaps Dave could have put the TG165 into his reflow oven (set at only 120°F or so) and then used his Flir E8 to find the hot screws?  At that point the Gorilla Glass might have popped off too.  Hindsight is always crystal clear.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2014, 11:14:04 pm »
OT but interesting....

The FLIR MUON has arrived !

http://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/flir-releases-new-oem-thermal-imaging-core-muon/

http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=64979

Its another miniaturised TIC core but with medium or high resolution available. Things are certainly moving very fast on the core miniaturisation front.

Aurora
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 11:17:36 pm by Aurora »
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2014, 01:41:13 am »
3: Several containers of assorted universal solvents - Some HF acid would have helped a lot in getting access to those pesky screws behind the screen... Simply DISSOLVE the damned screen!)
I think that would just damage his flesh and bones, while leaving the the screen intact, as HF is mostly bad at dissolving plastics.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #59 on: October 03, 2014, 04:22:39 am »
..and an X-Ray machine

That takes all the fun out of guessing  :--
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2014, 06:54:46 am »
OT but interesting....

The FLIR MUON has arrived !

http://www.asianmilitaryreview.com/flir-releases-new-oem-thermal-imaging-core-muon/

http://www.flir.com/cvs/cores/view/?id=64979

Its another miniaturised TIC core but with medium or high resolution available. Things are certainly moving very fast on the core miniaturisation front.

Aurora
They only made it to mock Mike for his latest video. ^-^
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2014, 07:30:04 am »
The FLIR MUON has arrived !
They only made it to mock Mike for his latest video. ^-^
[/quote]

The Muon was released a month ago!
http://www.newzealandsecurity.co.nz/press-releases/flir-releases-new-oem-thermal-imaging-core-muon%E2%84%A2
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #62 on: October 03, 2014, 08:25:41 am »
Muon looks like it's based on the same packaging used on the Ex.
Someone from Flir emailed me to tell me about it, but my suggestion that a sample would be nice fell on deaf ears...!
 
Would be interesting to know pricing
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Offline Shredhead

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2014, 03:49:36 am »
Dude, that was hard to watch.   :palm:

Next Flir teardown, just smash it open with a hammer and get it over with faster.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #64 on: October 05, 2014, 05:46:41 am »
Funny because if you put your cursor over the emoticon it says Grin  :-//
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #65 on: October 05, 2014, 06:26:37 am »
Funny because if you put your cursor over the emoticon it says Grin  :-//
Over which emoticon? As far as I can see, this is Grin:  ;D and this is Azn: ^-^
You must have been holding the cursor over the wrong one.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #66 on: October 05, 2014, 06:44:21 am »
So I did  :palm:
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #67 on: October 05, 2014, 09:37:17 am »
The FLIR MUON has arrived !
They only made it to mock Mike for his latest video. ^-^

The Muon was released a month ago!
http://www.newzealandsecurity.co.nz/press-releases/flir-releases-new-oem-thermal-imaging-core-muon%E2%84%A2

That emoticon   ^-^ means asian as far as I understand it. Did you mean to use this one  >:D or perhaps Richard Clapton  O0 on the other side.
I can't otherwise see the reference.
[/quote]
I dunno, all I see is a yellow dude closing eyes, smiling. maybe this one   ;D would have fitted better...
Isnt most of the emoticons Asian anyway? :palm:
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #68 on: October 05, 2014, 10:31:18 am »
Isnt most of the emoticons Asian anyway? :palm:
Nope. Maybe you're thinking of emoji. Emoticons is just a more general terms for smiley, that includes the non-smiling varieties as well. Western style emoticons are typically sideways like : ) whereas Japanese ones are typically oriented normally, like ^ - ^ (here represented with added spaces to avoid turning them into images.) I think the "Azn" one is supposed to look like its textual representation, with circumflexes as eyes.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2015, 06:35:44 pm »
Hi Dave! Still playing catchup, I just watched the video. I think that your access point is behind the external hard LCD screen (where the molded PB's are). If you remove it somehow by prying (it will probably shatter the over screen as it is usually a polycarbonate material), you will find the 4 screw holes behind it. I am curious if it would give access. Seen this done before in cell phones, however the LCD  hard over screens are available. Not so sure about this device. The case may be ruined as you say, but I offer this explanation to the nagging question. How do I get in to this bloody thing?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:38:57 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
 

Offline Bytewize

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2016, 02:01:28 pm »
Just thought I should share this.

I made a simple program for using the TG165's grayscale images for temperature readings.
It just wants to know the maximum and minimum temperatures of the picture and then you can click on the image to see the temperature at any point.
This makes the device a bit more useful, as you can take readings from the picture later.
Just make sure to measure the min and max temperatures at the location separately and write them down.
Or even easier, take pictures pointing the thermometer at the hottest spot and only check the coldest spot later.
It's a .net 3.5 executable. It only accepts the original resolution .bmp files.

Greets,
Christopher

EDIT: New program in below post.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 08:26:07 pm by Bytewize »
 

Offline jumbo

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2016, 08:11:51 am »
Just thought I should share this.

I made a simple program for using the TG165's grayscale images for temperature readings.
It just wants to know the maximum and minimum temperatures of the picture and then you can click on the image to see the temperature at any point.
This makes the device a bit more useful, as you can take readings from the picture later.
Just make sure to measure the min and max temperatures at the location separately and write them down.
Or even easier, take pictures pointing the thermometer at the hottest spot and only check the coldest spot later.
It's a .net 3.5 executable. It only accepts the original resolution .bmp files.

Greets,
Christopher

Wow, I bought yesterday one of TG165 just to check it;) thank You Bytewize

BTW. is it possible to connect camera with computer via usb (ip or some how)?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 08:43:02 am by jumbo »
 

Offline Bytewize

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2016, 09:31:12 am »
OK, I updated the software a bit, now works with ALL 3 FORMATS!
Just check the radio button for the corresponding type.

No connectivity options that I can find, only way I see is to tap into the display's output with a separate microcontroller.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 02:59:40 pm by Bytewize »
 

Offline jumbo

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2016, 11:20:29 am »
OK, I updated the software a bit, now works with ALL 3 FORMATS!
Just check the radio button for the corresponding type.

No connectivity options that I can find, only way I see is to tap into the display's output with a separate microcontroller.

I will check sun your app;)

is in TG165 hidden menu?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 07:37:11 am by jumbo »
 

Offline waspinator

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Re: EEVblog #669 - FLIR TG165 Thermal Imager Teardown
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2016, 03:57:55 am »
Hmm, looks like the lepton comes in three models, one of which has a shutter. The one in the TG165 looks like it does have a shutter, so I'm not sure if Dave is right about it not having one. Would be interesting if you could get absolute temperatures from it.

Quote
Lepton is available in three models: 50° FOV without shutter, 25° FOV without shutter, and 50° FOV with a shutter for manual calibration.

http://www.flir.com/cores/content/?id=66257
 


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