Author Topic: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow  (Read 23187 times)

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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2013, 04:14:46 pm »
Dave,

HP3457A!!! Where did you get that? An ancient meter, but a ripper, and was quite rare. It might have even been the very one I bought at IBM around 1989. It cost a fortune when it was new. After IBM sold us out, it was transferred to Bluegum/Alcatel, then Solectron then maybe auctioned off to the public in Sydney. If I recall correctly, you can set up pass/fail test alarm thresholds without even connecting a PC.

I am wondering if it might be better to suspend the boards on a small tight fine wire frame to reduce the thermal mass of any object coming within contact of the board? Something like a cheese slice cutter.

Sometimes it is better to make footprints slightly bigger than the recommended footprint if parts are going to be hand soldered so at least you can get a soldering iron in.

cheers,
Dave
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2013, 07:19:06 pm »
HP3457A!!! Where did you get that? An ancient meter, but a ripper, and was quite rare.

Command as mud on ebay.
 

Offline dumle29

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2013, 02:35:24 am »
Dave, you might want to take a look at this :)

I know. I don't have a vacuum pump. Will eventually get one.

You could get an aquarium air pump and reverse the valves - I made a decent pickup tool like that.

That's What that video is about :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:38:07 am by dumle29 »
 

Offline Tioleco

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2013, 01:04:53 am »
Can I use the kit in a small oven with 9 liters of capacity?
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 04:02:12 pm »
You could get an aquarium air pump and reverse the valves - I made a decent pickup tool like that.
I have no idea why but i found this amazingly amusing.

You would need an extra stencil to screen on an adhesive to hold the components, allow it to dry then screen on the paste, then place the underside and activate the adhesive to hold the components. Then paste the topside and place and reflow to do all at once. You can see this on some boards where the components are held down by red dots of thermoset adhesive then reflowed.
Unless you have big/heavy parts on both sides, you don't need glue - surface tension will hold parts on during the second reflow.
Probably the biggest difference is your stencilling setup needs to be able to support a board with parts on the underside when stencilling the second side, and of course you need to support the board during reflow. 
 
if you use heavy parts, could you use lead free on one side, and leaded on the other, reflowing the leadfree first, then leaded after at a lower temperature? or is the temperature difference too hard to get it in the gap?
 

Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2014, 11:50:32 am »
I have an interest in the controller that Dave reviewed but the 240V requirement is difficult for me, especially finding an oven.

I found this controller on eBay.  It uses an SSR to switch the oven's element, is programmable in terms of the temperature ramp-up and down, and otherwise looks like it may do the trick.  What do you guys think of this?  There are some other controllers that are even cheaper but less programmable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-W-30-RAMP-SOAK-SSR-OUTPUT-/110627498979

This one is cheaper but doesn't seem to have any ramp and soak timing options:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Universal-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-SSR-Control-output-1-alarm-/110862594914
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 11:54:41 am by JoeN »
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Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2014, 12:59:14 pm »
The link below was posted in page 5 of EEVblog #558 discussion page.  This fellow, who seems to know this subject very well, has built his own controller and demonstrates it with an IR oven which he recommends and makes some points concerning why he considers IR to be the correct oven technology to use:

http://forum.43oh.com/topic/3980-reflow-oven-booster-pack/

It seems this oven is no longer sold by Walmart but I bet another IR oven with a high wattage rating would work as well.

Too bad his controller project seems to have not taken off in the past few months as expected.  If I couldn't get his controller I still wonder if the controller I linked in and you talked about wouldn't work well with an IR oven.  I am thinking it might well.  Watch the video, his oven ramps right up.  And it's a poorly rated George Foreman oven!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 01:02:51 pm by JoeN »
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Offline hairykiwi

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2014, 02:24:28 am »
I have an interest in the controller that Dave reviewed but the 240V requirement is difficult for me, especially finding an oven.

I found this controller on eBay.  It uses an SSR to switch the oven's element, is programmable in terms of the temperature ramp-up and down, and otherwise looks like it may do the trick.  What do you guys think of this?  There are some other controllers that are even cheaper but less programmable.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PID-TEMPERATURE-CONTROLLER-W-30-RAMP-SOAK-SSR-OUTPUT-/110627498979

This one is cheaper but doesn't seem to have any ramp and soak timing options:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Universal-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-SSR-Control-output-1-alarm-/110862594914

Or why not try the OSPID controller from ospid.com?

I've detailed most of my reflow experience with it, including hacking it, on this post at the ospid forum's 'Setpoint Profiles (for Reflow et al)' thread.

It did take some experimenting to get a JEDEC compliant profile working:


Click on the image to view full res images.

I started out and failed, trying to use a cheap hotplate, (way too much thermal mass) before eventually settling on the four bar 9 litre Elgento E048, available from Amazon and ASDA at least, in the UK.

In the end I also decided against using PID control. PID, as I discovered is a science, not a black art. Determining PID settings by the wild-assed-guess (WAG) method is only fun for about an hour. From my limited experience, a PID controller using one P, I and D setting, is great for a steady state system such as a coffee machine or incubator, but ideally a controller needs a range of PID tuning parameters over the entire temperature range of the connected oven, to ensure it can actually achieve the rates required by a reflow profile.

So, inspired by mikeselectricstuff's simple yet elegant manually controlled and timed 'power ON' cycles to achieve a reflow profile, (detailed in one of the videos linked to earlier in this thread) my solution was to hack up another couple of profiles to use with the ospid controller.
Firmware is here: https://github.com/hairykiwi/osPID-Firmware.git, and software for the monitor here: https://github.com/hairykiwi/osPID-Front-End.git

The new profiles simply automate the process of setting a power setting for a), a given period, or b) until the required temperature is attained. The only prerequisite is that you determine, by experiment, the maximum rate of change of temperature achievable by the oven at each phase required by the reflow profile. After a short period of experimenting, you're then in a good position to wild-ass-estimate the power output required to achieve a required rate as each phase; much easier than WAGing PID settings - and as an added benefit a much a smoother temperature profile can be achieved more easily.

As for evidence of sucessful application, the last profile in the collection above was recorded during (PB-free) reflow soldering the prototype open source OTM-02 watch module:

Click on the image to view more full res images.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 02:32:07 am by hairykiwi »
 

Offline MacAttak

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2014, 01:48:30 pm »
If anyone's looking to roll your own reflow oven, Kevin Darrah had a couple of nice videos on it.

Neat. I just finished making my own reflow oven last week and used exactly the same cheapo oven from Walmart as a starting point (under $20). I added a third heating element and lined the inside with reflect-a-gold. Using SSRs for driving the heaters, and while I started out designing my controller circuitry from scratch - shortly after I got started on it an acquaintance on Kickstarter launched a project that included a Leonardo-based controller system along with enclosure etc. So I used that hardware for the controller, but ended up writing my own firmware to get more flexibility in how it processes the profiles. Doesn't use PID; it uses a slowly cycling heater pattern for each phase of reflow, tuned to measurements of how my oven responds.

The reflow controller hardware from Kickstarter (I think these kits are now on Amazon): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1471240030/controleo-an-arduino-compatible-controller


The LCD backlight isn't really that bright - my phone camera just seemed to oversaturate.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 01:51:09 pm by MacAttak »
 

Offline hairykiwi

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2014, 11:03:10 pm »
Nice one MacAttak. What are the part numbers did you used for the reflective foil and heater element please?

The larger display on the ControLeo is quite a nice feature also, compared to the smaller one on the 'industry standard sized' ospid.
 

Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 12:59:50 pm »
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1471240030/controleo-an-arduino-compatible-controller

Hey, thanks for this, I didn't know it existed.  It turns out that I have all the parts required (with some substitutions for voltage regulators and the transistor drivers) to make this thing on a solderboard already with the exception of the MAX31855 and MCP2300 chips.  I'm going to build up one of these in the next week and try out their software.

Can anyone identify why they even use an MCP2300?  All it is doing is GPIOs and the Atmel chip has a lot of free GPIOs available.  Why use it?

https://raw.github.com/engineertype/ControLeo/master/ControLeo-Schematic.png

Hey, check this out.  One of the guys who created this project is selling a few of his MAX31855s on eBay.  He bought 250 of them at Mouser at $4.16 each and is selling off the extras at a small profit, but still under the Mouser qty 1 price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxim-MAX31855-Thermocouple-to-digital-converter-/301056322310

He's not selling MCP2300s yet. In fact, no one is selling these on eBay.  But the part is very inexpensive ($1.22) at Digikey.

EDIT:  Parts Ordered!

EDIT:  Actually the part number is MCP23008 and there are people selling it on eBay, but it's only $1 each if you buy 10 at Digikey so that is where I bought it.  http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mcp23008
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 03:15:44 pm by JoeN »
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Offline Solver

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2014, 08:46:17 am »
There seems to be some reasonably priced manual smd pick and place aids available from china.

These did catch my eye when I was looking for something else:
smd reel holder/feeder
http://www.wtotoy.com/1-set-5-way-smt-smd-feeder-for-diy-prototype-pick-place-en.html
(even cheeper price on ebay www.ebay.com/itm/SMT-SMD-Feeder-for-DIY-Prototype-Pick-Up-Place-5-Way-i-/360679650359)
and the same including vacuum pump and pen
http://www.wtotoy.com/1-set-5-way-smt-smd-feeder-and-air-pump-vacuum-suction-pen-for-diy-prototype-pick-place-en.html

« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 08:58:38 am by Solver »
 

Online IanJ

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 04:13:06 am »
Hi all,

I'm sure I've posted my oven on here somewhere sometime in the past, but today I made some mods and logged data out of the Arduino and into Excel. My heaters are a bit slow hence the reflow takes 350secs total, but I think the plot is quite good.

I was also testing an internal fan I have just added to help move the heat around to help cure some cold/hotspot issues with big pcb's (I do have a diffuser in-front of the fan but removed it for the photo).







Ian Johnston
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Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline MacAttak

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 11:08:50 am »
Nice one MacAttak. What are the part numbers did you used for the reflective foil and heater element please?

The larger display on the ControLeo is quite a nice feature also, compared to the smaller one on the 'industry standard sized' ospid.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I didn't notice the question previously. Here are the exact sources I used for both the reflective tape and the heater element. The storefront with that heater element had a wide range of element sizes / power ratings at reasonable prices. The heater element was used in addition to the two elements that were already in the oven (I'm guessing they are 500W each too).

Reflect-A-Gold tape (this stuff is NOT cheap, but nothing really compares to it, also will need two rolls to fully cover the inside of an oven - I wasn't able to cover the door and about two inches of the bottom with just a single roll): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039Z5TYU/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i05?ie=UTF8&psc=1

500W heating element: http://www.ebay.com/itm/230913607229?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
 

Offline MacAttak

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 11:11:58 am »
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1471240030/controleo-an-arduino-compatible-controller

Hey, thanks for this, I didn't know it existed.  It turns out that I have all the parts required (with some substitutions for voltage regulators and the transistor drivers) to make this thing on a solderboard already with the exception of the MAX31855 and MCP2300 chips.  I'm going to build up one of these in the next week and try out their software.

Can anyone identify why they even use an MCP2300?  All it is doing is GPIOs and the Atmel chip has a lot of free GPIOs available.  Why use it?

https://raw.github.com/engineertype/ControLeo/master/ControLeo-Schematic.png

Hey, check this out.  One of the guys who created this project is selling a few of his MAX31855s on eBay.  He bought 250 of them at Mouser at $4.16 each and is selling off the extras at a small profit, but still under the Mouser qty 1 price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxim-MAX31855-Thermocouple-to-digital-converter-/301056322310

He's not selling MCP2300s yet. In fact, no one is selling these on eBay.  But the part is very inexpensive ($1.22) at Digikey.

EDIT:  Parts Ordered!

EDIT:  Actually the part number is MCP23008 and there are people selling it on eBay, but it's only $1 each if you buy 10 at Digikey so that is where I bought it.  http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=mcp23008

I contributed back my version of the software to his code repository (mine is the "v2" code).

I'm not sure why exactly that chip was selected. I'm sure Peter would give an answer though if you asked him. He's been very responsive to me when I had other questions / problems.
 


Offline matkar

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2016, 06:52:09 am »
TWO YEARS LATER!!!

I've followed this link from 2014 but got nothing.

https://raw.github.com/engineertype/ControLeo/master/ControLeo-Schematic.png

No link to the schematic is available on ControLeo github repository anymore: https://github.com/engineertype/ControLeo
I can't find the schematic elsewere either. The closest I came is here:
http://blog.atmel.com/2013/10/23/controleo-is-a-quad-relay-controller/?utm_source=tuicool&utm_medium=referral/
but due to low resolution it's not usable.
Does anbody still have the schematic for this project?
 

Offline Po6ept

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2016, 07:02:55 am »
You can save yourself a lot of effort by buying a solid state relay, an Auber Instruments SYS-2352P (or equivalent) Ramp and Soak PID Temperature Controller, and a thermocouple.  Add the three components to an old toaster oven that has enough elements for quick heating and you have a reflow oven.

In the US, most toaster ovens are wired for 120V.  I found one with separate top and bottom elements for broiling/toasting vs. baking.  I wired the top and bottom element sets sets in series and run the oven from 240V for fast and even heating.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4
 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 07:06:33 am by Po6ept »
 

Offline matkar

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2016, 08:05:55 pm »
Currently I use a hot plate with manual control, but I want a new toy. I figured since I almost have all the parts necessary I'd assemble ControLeo hardware using parts I have.

Actually the only thing not clear to me is the wiring of the port expander MCP23008 to LCD. I can only guess it is wired the same way as the adafruit's LCD IO expander: https://learn.adafruit.com/i2c-spi-lcd-backpack/connect-to-i2c but I'd like to receive a confirmation if someone knows before I buy/build it.

 

Offline JoeN

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Re: EEVblog #562 - More SMD Oven Reflow
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2016, 03:11:28 am »
TWO YEARS LATER!!!

I've followed this link from 2014 but got nothing.

https://raw.github.com/engineertype/ControLeo/master/ControLeo-Schematic.png

No link to the schematic is available on ControLeo github repository anymore: https://github.com/engineertype/ControLeo
I can't find the schematic elsewere either. The closest I came is here:
http://blog.atmel.com/2013/10/23/controleo-is-a-quad-relay-controller/?utm_source=tuicool&utm_medium=referral/
but due to low resolution it's not usable.
Does anbody still have the schematic for this project?

I found this in my libraries directory for ControLeo.  I think this is an older version.

 Directory of Z:\arduino-1.0.1\libraries\ControLeo

04/13/2014  11:32 PM    <DIR>          .
04/13/2014  11:32 PM    <DIR>          ..
01/03/2014  11:06 PM            78,025 ControLeo-Schematic.png
01/13/2014  01:18 AM               573 ControLeo.h
01/03/2014  11:06 PM             7,884 ControLeo_LiquidCrystal.cpp
01/03/2014  11:06 PM             2,443 ControLeo_LiquidCrystal.h
01/03/2014  11:06 PM             5,849 ControLeo_MAX31855.cpp
01/03/2014  11:06 PM               558 ControLeo_MAX31855.h
01/03/2014  11:06 PM             2,092 ControLeo_MCP23008.cpp
01/03/2014  11:06 PM               521 ControLeo_MCP23008.h
04/13/2014  11:32 PM    <DIR>          examples
01/03/2014  11:06 PM             1,019 keywords.txt
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