Author Topic: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown  (Read 61341 times)

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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2014, 05:33:55 pm »
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?

It's 12-bits for a single channel. Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 05:36:22 pm by marmad »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2014, 05:35:51 pm »
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
You have a point. It can take 640Ms/s at 12 bits, which isn't too shabby. Maybe the high-resolution mode really is real time.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2014, 05:37:14 pm »
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?

It's 12-bits for a single channel. Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit-on-single-channel capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?
Where did you get the idea its only single channel at 12 bits? The data sheet shows 1,2 and 4 channel operation at 12 and 14 bits, although the 14 bit speed is pretty slow.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2014, 05:39:56 pm »
Where did you get the idea its only single channel at 12 bits? The data sheet shows 1,2 and 4 channel operation at 12 and 14 bits, although the 14 bit speed is pretty slow.

Already edited before you posted.

You have a point. It can take 640Ms/s at 12 bits, which isn't too shabby. Maybe the high-resolution mode really is real time.

I would love if that was true - but to say I'm dubious would be an understatement  ;D  I will test it in a couple of days, but I'm fairly certain it's done in software - like the rest of the much more costly UltraVision DSOs. One giveaway is the exact replication of Vertical specifications on Batronix between the DS1000Z and DS2000A. Also, I'm fairly sure it would be a nice advertising point for Rigol if it were a real 12-bit ADC at slower speeds (no mention in the datasheet).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 05:45:37 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2014, 05:40:44 pm »
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
It's 12-bits for a single channel.

No, it's quad channel. Even in 14-bit mode.

Quote
Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit-on-single-channel capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?

I have no idea what they're paying and at present no concrete evidence to tell whether it's a HMCAD1511 or 1520.

I actually agree it's more likely to be the 1511 and oversampling, but until I know for sure, I will question assumptions and consider possibilities..
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #105 on: October 21, 2014, 05:44:31 pm »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Where can you buy the DS1052E at that price? Which distributor? Link to their website?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #106 on: October 21, 2014, 05:53:41 pm »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Where can you buy the DS1052E at that price? Which distributor? Link to their website?
Resellers in China have the DS1052E for a little more than half the price of the DS1054Z. Rigol's front page now has the DS1054Z at CNY2580 and the DS1102U at CNY1580, so it looks like the list price of the simpler scopes is being adjusted in relation to the DS1054Z's low price.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #107 on: October 21, 2014, 06:03:26 pm »
No, it's quad channel. Even in 14-bit mode.

Yes, that was struckthrough moments after writing it.

Quote
I have no idea what they're paying and at present no concrete evidence to tell whether it's a HMCAD1511 or 1520.

I actually agree it's more likely to be the 1511 and oversampling, but until I know for sure, I will question assumptions and consider possibilities..

As mentioned, if it's a true 12-bit ADC, they are WAY underselling it in the advertising and datasheet specs ;D   But will check soon...
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2014, 06:20:51 pm »
BTW, if anyone with a DS1000Z wants to check it it's got a real 12-bit ADC :D that it uses in High Res mode:

Set the DSO to 1 channel ON, 50us/div, highest memory depth (12M/AUTO), and send it a 10MHz sine wave. If, when you turn on High Res, the waveform vanishes to an almost flat line (< 1mVpp), it ain't.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 06:23:14 pm by marmad »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #109 on: October 21, 2014, 06:29:33 pm »
Since the 1520 cost half more than the 1511 I will think it's the 1511.

$60-80 compared to $116 even at high quantities the difference could be $20 (say $30 vs $50) on a $300 scope with many other components I will doubt they will use the 1520, but then again, who knows, a long term contract could bring the price pretty low I guess.

 

Offline tinhead

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #110 on: October 21, 2014, 06:33:16 pm »
the best would be probably to check how the ADC is being configured, as far i understood HMCAD1520 need to be set to HMCAD1511 mode (register lvds_output_mode) and/or high speed and precision mode.
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Offline SharpEars

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #111 on: October 21, 2014, 06:34:33 pm »
Dave, I just want to know if you've compared the intensity grading on the 1000Z vs the DS2000 and which version you like better (and why)?
 

Online netdudeuk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #112 on: October 21, 2014, 07:00:34 pm »
Dave said on the video that the scope has segmented memory.  He didn't say anything else about it.  Anyone have any experience of this on this range of scopes ?  Anything to do with
Waveform Record ?
 

Offline kwass

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2014, 12:44:32 am »
BTW, if anyone with a DS1000Z wants to check it it's got a real 12-bit ADC :D that it uses in High Res mode:

Set the DSO to 1 channel ON, 50us/div, highest memory depth (12M/AUTO), and send it a 10MHz sine wave. If, when you turn on High Res, the waveform vanishes to an almost flat line (< 1mVpp), it ain't.

I've tried this (on a modded 1054z) and while it certainly degrades it's far from flat.  However at 20ms/div is does go flat and then at 50ms/div it's back to something reasonable.  I guess that the oversampling cancels itself out at 20ms/div.
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Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #114 on: October 22, 2014, 01:08:57 am »
I've tried this (on a modded 1054z) and while it certainly degrades it's far from flat.  However at 20ms/div is does go flat and then at 50ms/div it's back to something reasonable.  I guess that the oversampling cancels itself out at 20ms/div.

I used flat in a relative way - that's why I added < 1mVpp - you have to increase the vertical scale to find out exactly how low the amplitude is. On my DS2000, the amplitude of a 3Vpp 10MHz sine wave goes to ~ 1mVpp @ 50ms/div. That's from the low pass comb filter of successive sampling averaging, but the amplitude will be different on the DS1000Z because of the lower max.sample rate (and depending on how many samples it's averaging).

I don't know if the DS1000Z is doing 256 sample averaging, but if/when it is, I believe there is a null valley at 7.81MHz which will give almost perfect 0V amplitude (+/- a pixel at the lowest vertical scale).

EDIT: I forgot momentarily that the DS1000Z max. sample rate is half that of the DS2000, so the nulls, of course, begin at half that of the DS2000. The nulls for 1GSa/s @ 256 samples averaged are ~3.9MHz and it's harmonics. Anytime the DS1000Z might be averaging to 12 bits (regardless if the rate is lower than 1GSa/s), you should have a null (0V amplitude +/- a pixel at the lowest vertical scale) at that frequency.

You can calculate the -3dB BW in High Res (if you know the number of samples averaged) by 0.433*(sample rate/samples averaged). You can reverse-calculate the number of samples averaged by finding the -3dB BW first.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 02:20:53 am by marmad »
 

Offline klaus11

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #115 on: October 22, 2014, 10:23:42 am »
Hi all, newbie here not mistreated too. I'm thinking about buying the Rigol DS1054Z and am awaiting Batronix stocks.
  I wonder; Will come in this new batch of Rigol DS1054Z manufactured with the same quality and "ease" of hackering?
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Offline Sjokolade

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #116 on: October 22, 2014, 11:27:52 am »
Price here in Norway is 508 US$ + tax, thats 635 US$.
If at first you do succeed try not to look astonished
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #117 on: October 22, 2014, 11:32:21 am »
I'm thinking about buying the Rigol DS1054Z and am awaiting Batronix stocks.
I wonder; Will come in this new batch of Rigol DS1054Z manufactured with the same quality and "ease" of hackering?

It's so new that no firmware updates haven't been released yet, so any firmware hacks should still work. Rigol have a history of closing hack loopholes in the previous scope firmware though.
Hardware hacks have yet to be verified.
 

Offline nowlan

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #118 on: October 22, 2014, 12:05:36 pm »
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2014, 01:14:58 pm »
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?

Yep, exact same scope, just 50MHz.
 

Offline SharpEars

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2014, 04:46:52 pm »
A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O

I just watched the first half of your DS1000Z vs DS2000A review and it is the best damn oscilloscope comparison review I have ever seen in my life  :-+! Wow, you've got a review of the 2072a as well (2072a review). Too bad they're all in Russian  :( . My Russian language understanding is horrible (especially understanding all the non-English sounding technical jargon), but I was able to follow along and your review was truly comprehensive. I especially liked your use of the word "musar" throughout the review in the protocol decoding portions. I don't know why, but it sounded hilarious to me, not sure if that was intentional or not.

If I had the time, I'd do a rough overdub of it in English for Oz, Brits and us Yanks, but that would take at least a solid day out of my life... Maybe if I am off from work one day...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 05:03:30 pm by SharpEars »
 

Offline BUkitoo

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2014, 01:21:26 am »
 >:(
In Argentina, the main distributor (hopefully there are 2) won´t import this Rigol Model! They will import the 70MHz version! With all the ridiculous taxes we have, the unit will cost more than 850 u$s !  |O
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2014, 02:54:45 am »
FYI those in Oz who have been asking.
Emona will have stock on the 11th Nov.
I suspect they might sell out.
 

Offline klaus11

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2014, 06:01:26 am »
The firmware does the DS1104Z is here Top-oscilloscopes.com search DS1104Z - Dowload. I can not put URL requests password to access.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 06:07:12 am by klaus11 »
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Offline Robyn

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2014, 08:45:34 am »
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?

Yep, exact same scope, just 50MHz.
 
 Perhaps they produce on one line, they measure it at the end, the better ones get 1104Z and the other 1074Z or 1054Z. I don't know if that is true, just an idea.

... I still have to wait 3 weeks until mine arrives.
 


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