Author Topic: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown  (Read 60527 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2014, 01:25:32 am »
Teriffic teardown.  When a review unit becomes available I suggest a comparision of 3-5 like scopes would be better than a review.   When making the decision to buy a bench scope I am not just thinking "for my applications what can it do & how well does it perform"; I am also comparing to competitors.  For me this includes remote operation and automated testing.

The problem with scope comparison is the time it takes. A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer. And stuff will still get missed or skimmer over in either case.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2014, 01:34:12 am »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Nor really if we're talking about prices of brand-new units from rigol and like official distributors? Sure if you can find 1052E for a half of the price it's not crazy at all :)
I don't know what they are asking in the west, but right now in China the 1052E is about 60% of the prices of the 1054Z.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2014, 01:53:08 am »
I hope I will not break a gentleman's code if I tell that a presentation mentioned +400 employees. I expected way more...
You can't really make sense of an employee count unless you know the company culture. If they outsource massive amounts of their work, they won't need so many people of their own. A company in Shenzhen can easily outsource practically everything, as they are surrounded by other companies specialising in everything you can think of. I think its harder to do that in Beijing, if that is actually where most of Rigol's engineering and production occurs. There just isn't the scale of manufacturing there to support sufficient service companies.

Logistics is the main reason manufacturing spreads so slowly into the Chinese hinterland. They have superb road and rail communication to most places. You can set up a large heavy system in a lab in Shenzhen, and have it sitting in place on a production line far away the next morning. Still, many places deep inside China that have tried to build up manufacturing bases find logistics a huge hindrance.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2014, 03:55:27 am »
What's going on here Dave. You do all those tough guy challenges, but are you afraid to do a scope comparison? >:D

It's the stuff of blogger nightmares!
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2014, 08:26:54 am »
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

DS1054Z        Dave Teardown                 
DS1074Z-S    James Lothian Teardown   
DS1104Z        Connor Wolf Teardown     

In this case the DS1054Z and DS1074Z-S have the same resistor configuration while the DS1104Z have a different one.
Since the first 2 were opened in the last few months (I guess also bought and manufactured recently) and the Connor one is older I think it is just related to the manufacturing date.

I don’t know if this is related also to some part of the firmware that can’t be updated with a normal upgrade.

By the way I bought almost one year ago a DS1074Z and Riglolled to DS1104Z full option and so far I’m really happy with this marvelous oscilloscope.
As far as I’m aware the new firmware version (>4) has not been hacked yet so the DS1054Z is only potentially-hackable at the moment.
M’I correct?

Mauro
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:09:48 am by mauroh »
 

Offline leppie

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2014, 08:37:19 am »
Regarding the hardware version resistors, see attached the screenshot of:

DS1054Z Dave Teardown
DS1074

Cant see any difference  :-DD
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2014, 08:56:41 am »
Quote
I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy.

It's not. That comes directly from them.
They know they can't stop it, and they don't rarely care much because as much as we think it matters in our circles, and "everyone does it", the truth is vast majority of buyers do not even know the scope is hackable, and wouldn't do so even if they did.

Even in this circle there's plenty of doubters, people who are 100% sure it MUST be different, somehow (although they don't know how...)

 

Offline Fagear

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2014, 10:56:24 am »
A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:59:17 am by Fagear »
 

Offline Neoistheone2000

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2014, 01:58:34 pm »
I can't wait for the review. I'm wanting to buy my first scope and this looks like a winner for me. Question, any reason to want the 100MHz one over the 50MHz one?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

Offline KD0CAC John

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2014, 02:18:12 pm »
Dave , do not ever , do anything like anybody else , just be Dave :)
The world would really suck if everyone was the same ;)
John
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2014, 02:28:07 pm »
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

The model number of the scope actually changes via firmware.  That is how you change a 70mhz 1074 into the 100mhz model. You just change the model number in the firmware.
 

Offline mauroh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2014, 02:38:34 pm »
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

The model number of the scope actually changes via firmware.  That is how you change a 70mhz 1074 into the 100mhz model. You just change the model number in the firmware.


Totally agree for the BW or for the SW options, but i was curious to verify that also for models with different hardware like with or without the SigGen. the resistors where the same like it is.

Mauro



Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2014, 03:25:34 pm »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

Who's "we"...?

If you pull your head out and take a look around you might find you're actually in the minority.

 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2014, 05:07:59 pm »
One test-point near to the Freescale processor (towards the Spartan FPGA) is marked BATTERYV.
Which battery is that about? At least I did not spot any obvious 'button cell' on the board.
 

Offline kevinpt

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2014, 05:45:14 pm »
Still no probe ID rings. Why again must we be burdened by manually setting probe attenuation factor when a simple automatic solution exists? I don't see why one of the Chinese Mfrs don't just implement them across their entire product range to show up their competitors. It's not like it's particularly difficult (or expensive) to implement or patent encumbered.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #65 on: October 16, 2014, 07:19:01 pm »
One test-point near to the Freescale processor (towards the Spartan FPGA) is marked BATTERYV.
Which battery is that about? At least I did not spot any obvious 'button cell' on the board.

Since that processor is also optimised for mobile applications, it's probably the 4.2V or so input for the on-board core DC-DC converter.

ISTR that Freescale said something like you should operate it from 4.2V instead of the max rated 5V so we ended up having a SOT223 LD1117 drop the 5V supply to 4.2V for the i.MX's buck converter, since the application was mains powered.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2014, 07:23:28 pm »
Another great eevblog review.  Great to see the PCB up close and compare it to the 1052e, both have detailed photos on Flickr.

Pending a review, Fagear has done a good job going through all the menu options, its clear and easily demos many functions so you don't really need to speak Russian to get something out of it. Spasibo.

A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 07:24:59 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline m100

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2014, 08:24:47 pm »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
 

Offline BFX

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2014, 09:31:10 pm »
Thanks, cool teardown 8) But I like my Owon 8202V  :D
 

Offline Maxlor

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2014, 10:05:29 pm »
I don't think hackability is such a big thing, certainly not in business. I bought a DS1104Z-S last year with several options. Wouldn't dream of buying a lower model and hacking it; it's just bad karma to do those things when you're using the stuff commercially. Besides, the money is peanuts compared to e.g. the 6-digit sums we're spending on COMSOL licenses. Ridiculously expensive those.

I also don't think the hobbyist market is that big. If I had to guess, I'd say the biggest piece of the pie by far for rigol is their domestic market, followed by rest of the world commercial, followed by hobbyists. I don't have any hard data though, it's just a guess.

Btw, am I the only one who feels that their decoding upgrades are really not worth the money, since them being limited to screen area makes them only mildly useful?

The DS1054Z is a fantastic overall deal though. I'm not missing the -S functionality either, since it's so cheap that a separate signal gen is affordable for a hobbyist too. And that one will have an UI that probably isn't as cumbersome to use :)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2014, 10:49:08 pm »
Dave , do not ever , do anything like anybody else , just be Dave :)

Did I missing something?  :-//
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2014, 10:52:51 pm »
I'm not missing the -S functionality either, since it's so cheap that a separate signal gen is affordable for a hobbyist too.

All the scopes with signal gens now are all pretty mediocre. They are OK for basic use, but like you said, really useful signal gens are pretty cheap these days.
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2014, 11:38:31 pm »
I don't know what they are asking in the west, but right now in China the 1052E is about 60% of the prices of the 1054Z.

In the USA, from tequipment.net (a reasonably competitive seller), the 1052E is $329, while the 1054Z is $399.  In other words, the 1052E is about 82% the price of a 1054Z.

I think the marketplace will eventually sort that out.  I can't imagine many people choosing the 1052E these days at those relative price levels.  I suspect it won't be too long before the 1052E is discontinued and the remaining stock is sold at clearance prices, whatever they can get.  It's had a good run.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2014, 03:50:19 am »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
Is that a typo on their web site? It seems to price the 1054Z well below the price in China or the US.
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2014, 05:05:57 am »
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
Is that a typo on their web site? It seems to price the 1054Z well below the price in China or the US.

The price on their website is GBP 286.80.  That's about $460 in US Dollars at today's exchange rates.  The price from US retailers is around $400.  There are differing tax rates in those prices, and sales tax might be added to the US price, but all in all, it seems to be slightly cheaper to buy one in the US than in the UK.  The prices aren't wildly different, though.
 


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