Author Topic: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown  (Read 60530 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2014, 05:53:56 am »
The price on their website is GBP 286.80.  That's about $460 in US Dollars at today's exchange rates.  The price from US retailers is around $400.  There are differing tax rates in those prices, and sales tax might be added to the US price, but all in all, it seems to be slightly cheaper to buy one in the US than in the UK.  The prices aren't wildly different, though.
That's 286.8 pounds including 20% VAT. Its 239 without VAT. That's $383 using your exchange rate. I got the exchange rate wrong, so its not as cheap as I thought. However, electronics in the UK is usually wayyyyy above the US price, so this is a very good deal for that market.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2014, 09:36:22 am »
Did you feel that? My DS1074Z just lost a bit of value.
I might just go and buy a DS1054Z and sell my old 1074Z...
 

Offline Nuno_pt

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2014, 10:02:11 am »
Hi all,

The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.
Nuno
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Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2014, 10:21:26 am »
I might just go and buy a DS1054Z and sell my old 1074Z...

If you can make a profit doing so, why not!
 

Offline android

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2014, 12:43:04 pm »
If you take a close look at the PCB you'll see that the four channel inputs are not 100% exactly the same. An easy way to check is to look at the board square on and cross your eyes until two of the channels line up. Your eyes will lock on and the differences will stick out like dog's balls! ...you get a rather cool 3D effect too :)
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Offline dougg

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2014, 04:28:22 pm »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

You haven't convinced your northern neighbo_u_rs yet. Besides zed works just fine in Quebec. Speaking of which, y'all might think of switching to zeta in sympathy with your 50 million Hispanics  :)

In the forthcoming review of the "Z", I would be interested if the optional SPI decode works and can handle the clock, MISO and MOSI sensibly since it is a 4 channel scope. The speed of the SPI may be an issue.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2014, 06:06:44 am »
In the forthcoming review of the "Z", I would be interested if the optional SPI decode works and can handle the clock, MISO and MOSI sensibly since it is a 4 channel scope.

Haven't tried SPI but RS232 and I2C certainly work.

Edit: Still haven't physically tried it but SPI mode has three input channel selection options - CLK/MISO/MOSI. You could use the 4th channel for CS (and trigger on it...)

PS: ...and you can do 2 I2C buses simultaneously.

The speed of the SPI may be an issue.

It wouldn't be the fault of the 'scope if you're trying to decode 100MHz SPI.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:31:52 am by Fungus »
 

Offline hans

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2014, 08:53:45 am »
I've successfully been able to decode ~19MHz SPI busses with quite poor signal integrity (I only had 1 GND probe hooked up, on the CS line).. Like for example, a 19MHz SPI bus with 20MHz bandwidth limit turned on all channels to 'clean up' the display.

So in that case unless you're doing something really crazy at 20MHz the scope will pick it up. Do realize that the decoding is software processing, so although the scope may update 1000 times second at that rate, the decoding bar will not. I think the decoder can be quite a slow at times when you freeze the screen, because with such a "complex" signal it can take half a second before the decoded data appears (still using version 2 SP5 firmware - it may be much improved in version 4).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:57:21 am by hans »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2014, 09:37:20 am »
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'
You haven't convinced your northern neighbo_u_rs yet.

I actually prefer American spelling (and have adopted it even though I don't say 'zee'). The USA's 19th century spelling reformers were onto something.

"Colour" looks too French to me these days.

 

Offline hikariuk

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2014, 01:22:26 pm »
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, they why would anyone buy the DS1074z for  more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.

Because educational establishments and small businesses generally do not use keygens to unlock features.

A lot of individuals won't either.
I write software.  I'd far rather be doing something else.
 

Offline Robyn

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2014, 01:30:32 pm »
@Dave at 33:33 you talk about the memory. It has 512Mbit. That is enough. It has maximum 24MS that means 24M * 16Bits that is 48MByte. If you use more than one channel you have only 12MS (2 channel), 6MS (3 channel), 6MS (4 channel). Each sample has 16 bits because it need 10 bits in some modes the 1054Z use 12bit ADC.
Edit: it is 12 bit >= 5µs/div, and only 6MS with 3 channel

at 33:36 you think that the left key row has spezial functions. I see 7 lines going there (Perhaps a 3x4 matrix). The 4 pin connector right to it has nothing to do with them for me, because i think i see 4 seperate lines going to the connector.

Hi all,
The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.

 If you want to order there, Perhaps I can help you to get a better price. Or if more than you want one, i will ask for a discount code (all products) for the eevblog.

I can't wait until I will have mine.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 01:44:45 pm by Robyn »
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2014, 01:53:36 pm »
If you take a close look at the PCB you'll see that the four channel inputs are not 100% exactly the same. An easy way to check is to look at the board square on and cross your eyes until two of the channels line up. Your eyes will lock on and the differences will stick out like dog's balls! ...you get a rather cool 3D effect too :)
I can never get that trick to work. But I suffer from amblyopia, so that could be the reason. In fact it's the only reason I haven't invested in Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic CastAR system :(

3D kinda works for me, but can become really uncomfortable on my stupid eye. :(
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2014, 08:57:37 am »
@Dave at 33:33 you talk about the memory. It has 512Mbit. That is enough. It has maximum 24MS that means 24M * 16Bits that is 48MByte. If you use more than one channel you have only 12MS (2 channel), 6MS (3 channel), 6MS (4 channel). Each sample has 16 bits because it need 10 bits in some modes the 1054Z use 12bit ADC.
Edit: it is 12 bit >= 5µs/div, and only 6MS with 3 channel

No, the ADC is only 8 bit. If you're talking about High Res mode, that's just the DSO averaging sequential sample points within the same acquisition to produce added bits of vertical resolution.

The number of added bits is dependent on the time base setting, and the slower the setting, the greater the number of samples that are averaged together for each display point, trading off BW for resolution - since it effectively acts like a low-pass filter which limits the real-time bandwidth. An extra bit of vertical resolution is produced for every factor of 4 averages, so 4, 16, 64, or 256 successive samples are averaged for, respectively, 9, 10, 11, or 12 bits of resolution.
 
If the DS1000Z is like the DS2000, High Res can be turned on and off for a captured waveform (i.e. when the DSO is stopped). That means that the original samples must not be overwritten or changed since there would be no way to reverse the process and recover them after averaging. So if the DSO *is* doing the averaging in sample memory, it's using different memory locations to store the 9-12 bit sums.

Since the DSO has a maximum of 24M of sample memory - that would mean it would need, at a maximum, an additional 24/4 of memory for storing the sums - or 30M of total sample memory - or the next larger stock DRAM size, which, coincidentally, would be 32M * 16.  :)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 03:39:59 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Topop

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2014, 08:42:47 pm »
Dave,

Great job once again, loved it. 

Doing side by each review of products would be a pain, lengthy, and time consuming.  A much simpler question is why I should spend significantly more on an entry level Tek product (if there is such a thing).  What is the difference in the feature mix and build quality?  Don’t get me wrong, Tek makes great stuff and I own a quarter ton of it, literally, and love it all.  But when this hobbyist had to put down hard earned dollars for my first DSO I had to go with the DS2072A. 

Oh yea, I almost forgot.  Dave, please show some respect!  Please turn the Tek scope on the shelf right side up! :-+
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 08:53:07 pm by Topop »
 

Offline ThisNameIsBlank

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2014, 09:36:28 pm »

Hi all,
The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.

 If you want to order there, Perhaps I can help you to get a better price. Or if more than you want one, i will ask for a discount code (all products) for the eevblog.

I can't wait until I will have mine.

I'm certainly interested - I joined this forum recently with the intention of finding a good, cheap first scope.  I've been watching reviews and reading ever since.
 

Offline bitblt

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2014, 07:56:48 am »
I'm definitely interested in the Rigol DS1054Z.  I'll probably wait for Dave's full review.   I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on the DS1074Z.  The price for an intensity graded display is pretty compelling.  Although I'm still considering the Hantek MSO5054F for only a buck more.

I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.  And it's aluminum, not aluminium.  ;)

Great teardown by the way.  :-+
 

Offline SNGLinks

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2014, 08:41:02 am »


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2014, 09:32:20 am »


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.

Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2014, 02:13:12 am »


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.

Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

on the little kangaroo?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2014, 09:09:38 am »
Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

on the little kangaroo?

Skippy! Skippy! Skippy the bush kangaroo...


(Hands up who just had a flashback image of a helicopter?)
 

Offline Robyn

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2014, 04:48:19 pm »

No, the ADC is only 8 bit. If you're talking about High Res mode, that's just the DSO averaging sequential sample points within the same acquisition to produce added bits of vertical resolution.

 No, I am not talking about the High Res Mode, I was talking about the specification (batronix.com page) that I read. It says
Quote
    Vertical:     Digital Oscilloscope Rigol DS1054Z
    Analog digital converter (A/D) :    12 Bit at ? 5 µs/div  ,   8 Bit at ? 2 µs/div
    Sensitivity range (V/div):    1 mV/div to 10 V/div
    Offset range:                       1 mV/div to 10 V/div
I know, when I read a ADC of a µC, I can read it in 8 Bit  fast Mode because I read only the upper Bits and sampling is faster, or I can read 12 Bit Mode, it is slower but I have 12Bit resolution. I expect the same in the DS1054Z, because of the spezification.

Quote
Since the DSO has a maximum of 24M of sample memory - that would mean it would need, at a maximum, an additional 24/4 of memory for storing the sums - or 30M of total sample memory - or the next larger stock DRAM size, which, coincidentally, would be 32M * 16.  :)
  I know how to calculate, but they don't take 32M because it was the next larger size of Samplesize, they need some more memory for calculaculating, tabels , pointers etc, that is about 8 M*16 , because they need hat, they calculated  16Mx16, but it  ist to small, because thats only room 8M Sample. so they had to take 32Mx16 and so they got a value of 24 M possible Samples.
 I was talking about it, because dave had problems with the 512Mbit RAM size in the video, he thought it was to small and was looking for more. I think he calculated 24MS * 4 Channels that make 96MBytes but he found only 512Mbit. No big problem, i like the video, it gave me a lot of information and i wanted to give some back. Thank you to dave for it.


 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2014, 05:12:48 pm »
No, I am not talking about the High Res Mode, I was talking about the specification (batronix.com page) that I read. It says
That specification is a mistake - or at least, a conflation of specs. It's mixing the REAL sample resolution with the EFFECTIVE resolution of High Res mode. It lists the same thing for the DS2000A, which, I can assure you, uses an 8-bit ADC.

Quote
I know, when I read a ADC of a µC, I can read it in 8 Bit  fast Mode because I read only the upper Bits and sampling is faster, or I can read 12 Bit Mode, it is slower but I have 12Bit resolution. I expect the same in the DS1054Z, because of the spezification.
Well I hate to tell you this, but your expectations are incorrect. You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series. It's an 8-bit only ADC. The 12-bits they refer to in the Batronix specs are in High Res mode.

Not only that, but I suspect the timebases of that spec are incorrect since they match the ones listed for the DS2000A precisely (which has double the max. sample speed). As shown in the chart at the bottom of this post, these are the bit resolutions for the DS2000(A) at various timebases when using High Res, and I suspect the DS1000Z's might be one time base slower (although I'll test it with the one that is arriving in a couple of days).

Quote
I was talking about it, because dave had problems with the 512Mbit RAM size in the video, he thought it was to small and was looking for more. I think he calculated 24MS * 4 Channels that make 96MBytes but he found only 512Mbit.
I understand. I only mentioned it because you were wrong about the ADC needing to store 12-bit samples - except when calculating High Res mode (which might be done in display memory).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 05:24:46 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2014, 05:17:18 pm »
You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series. It's an 8-bit only ADC.

And how was it determined this is the ADC in use?

https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf

Pin compatible, 8/12/14-bit.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2014, 05:26:08 pm »
You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series. It's an 8-bit only ADC.

And how was it determined this is the ADC in use?

https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf

Pin compatible, 8/12/14-bit.
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time. In fact it only achieves 12 bits by repeated sampling and dithering. The Batronix page isn't clear about this, but the Rigol data sheet is - both the English and Chinese versions, which are more similar than most translations.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2014, 05:27:04 pm »
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
 


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