EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: EEVblog on October 15, 2014, 11:25:01 am

Title: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 15, 2014, 11:25:01 am
Dave tears down the new US$399 Rigol 4 channel 50MHz DS1054Z oscilloscope.
How can they get such incredible value for the price?

Datasheets:
Hittite HMCAD1511 ADC: https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1511.pdf (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1511.pdf)
ProASIC 3 FPGA https://www.actel.com/documents/PA3_DS.pdf (https://www.actel.com/documents/PA3_DS.pdf)
SRAM: http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=CY7C1360C-200BGC (http://www.cypress.com/?mpn=CY7C1360C-200BGC)
Freescale iMX283 Applications Processor: cache.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/IMX28CEC.pdf

EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9P1Am9aFU#ws)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: dentaku on October 15, 2014, 12:42:00 pm
This puts the DS1074Z in a weird place where it's still a nice 4CH scope for the price but not terribly different from the DS1054Z which is quite a bit cheaper.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: godFather89 on October 15, 2014, 12:43:02 pm
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Towger on October 15, 2014, 12:49:02 pm
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

The 'S' version has a separate daughter board module, which from memory plugs into the pins on the top right of the main pcb. From there leads go over to the cutouts on the left.

There are photos of it on the net.
 Update 'where' were photos on the net... which I now cannot find.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: ziq8tsi on October 15, 2014, 01:26:51 pm
I had noticed that the LEDs for the LA and Source buttons flash briefly through the holes in the front panel at power on.

I am not sure it is even a mistake to fit them.  Theoretically they could stock four different populations of that board internally, and then use the correct one when assembling each model.  That could very easily cost more than the LED or two it saves.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 15, 2014, 01:29:33 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 15, 2014, 01:41:41 pm
The Chinese characters down the edge of the power supply board are the colours of the attached wires. Clearly these are instructions to the assembly workers, and need to be in Chinese.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Towger on October 15, 2014, 02:03:29 pm
The Chinese characters down the edge of the power supply board are the colours of the attached wires. Clearly these are instructions to the assembly workers, and need to be in Chinese.

Very true. I have some RGB LED strips in front of me, the contacts are marked R G B. Do you think the Red wire goes to the R and Green wire goes to the G and Blue wire goes to the B....  They never even tested them, when connected to its own controller Red coloured button = Green Leds and so on...
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 15, 2014, 02:17:44 pm
The Chinese characters down the edge of the power supply board are the colours of the attached wires. Clearly these are instructions to the assembly workers, and need to be in Chinese.

Very true. I have some RGB LED strips in front of me, the contacts are marked R G B. Do you think the Red wire goes to the R and Green wire goes to the G and Blue wire goes to the B....  They never even tested them, when connected to its own controller Red coloured button = Green Leds and so on...
This sometimes happens because they change LED types to ones with a different pinout
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: KD0CAC John on October 15, 2014, 02:29:13 pm
BUT , can it be hacked to 100mHz ;)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: JJalling on October 15, 2014, 04:10:18 pm
BUT , can it be hacked to 100mHz ;)

Or maybe even 100MHz ;)

/Jonas
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Macbeth on October 15, 2014, 04:20:44 pm
BUT , can it be hacked to 100mHz ;)

Or maybe even 100MHz ;)

/Jonas
I'd love an old analogue 100mHz scope. But just imagine the amount of phosphor needed? I think they rely on pen on paper plotting for that kind of thing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Hypernova on October 15, 2014, 04:30:18 pm
*oops, this is what you get when you leave a tab open for too long before replying*

The printing of chinese characters ("Black", "Yellow" etc) on the power board is to aid the production line workers. They are most likely not educated enough to know what they are putting together. So it is safer to just print the character representing the matching wire colour on the board.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rasz on October 15, 2014, 05:12:58 pm
if its really a varicap + digital potentiometer I wouldnt even bother with reverse engineering software, just whack attiny in there and additional button that forces full bandwidth (I assume they use this design so you can limit bandwidth to cut aliasing, so no point hard modding to 100MHz).
that LA also looks doable, just need fpga + memory + 2 stabilizers, and a dump from someone who performed firmware upgrade (again assuming firmware upgrade also upgrades fpga firmware)

lovely compact design at a great price point, bug thumbs up to rigol (unlike their shitty still broken power supplies)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: hans on October 15, 2014, 05:13:09 pm
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

The 'S' version has a separate daughter board module, which from memory plugs into the pins on the top right of the main pcb. From there leads go over to the cutouts on the left.

There are photos of it on the net.
 Update 'where' were photos on the net... which I now cannot find.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jameslothian/sets/72157645222357567/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jameslothian/sets/72157645222357567/)
(pictures are not mine; credit to James!)

The 1074Z-S still fits a gap where you want a low-end scope with signal generator or logic analyzer, but don't need the 100MHz and could save 170$ that way.
Having said that, the 1074Z-S is a 840$ scope, and the 1104Z-S is a 1000$ scope. At that point the 160$ difference is there, but clearly not as spectacular.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: sergey on October 15, 2014, 05:32:35 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Nor really if we're talking about prices of brand-new units from rigol and like official distributors? Sure if you can find 1052E for a half of the price it's not crazy at all :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: NANDBlog on October 15, 2014, 05:46:36 pm
I really liked the overlay pictures.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 15, 2014, 05:47:53 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Warhawk on October 15, 2014, 05:48:32 pm
Yesterday We had a meeting with two Rigol representatives (short portfolio presentation) who had no idea that ds1054z exists  :-DD
A second thing which blew my mind was a number of Rigol employees. Anyway. I still like their devices even after this experience  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: sergey on October 15, 2014, 05:59:52 pm
A second thing which blew my mind was a number of Rigol employees.

This makes me curious what the number of Rigol employees is. :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Lukas on October 15, 2014, 06:08:52 pm
The all-discrete frontend really impresses me. Especially since it's 2014 and you could just buy a LMH6518 and call it a day. Way more expensive though...

I cannot find a comparator for the trigger, so it seems like they're doing digital trigger based on the ADC samples. When sampling on 4 channels ad 250MSa/s each with 100MHz bandwidth, that's barely over nyquist. Interesting to see what trigger jitter is like...
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Warhawk on October 15, 2014, 06:11:49 pm
A second thing which blew my mind was a number of Rigol employees.

This makes me curious what the number of Rigol employees is. :)

I hope I will not break a gentleman's code if I tell that a presentation mentioned +400 employees. I expected way more...


update:
Well, I see it is not confidential:
http://rigol.en.alibaba.com/company_profile.html (http://rigol.en.alibaba.com/company_profile.html)

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2014, 06:26:25 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

DIAF.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rutger on October 15, 2014, 06:45:43 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

So how do you pronounce "C" (also 'zee') ?

You Yanks don't know proper English.

C = zee
Z = set
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rutger on October 15, 2014, 06:49:23 pm
I can't wait for the full review, I have already ordered one and can't wait to get it.

I was going to buy the DS1074z, but that is really obsolete at this point, because after the 'upgrade' they would both be 100MHz with the same features.
Maybe the Intensity Grading isn't as good, but I for almost $ 200 less I can live with that.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: dr.diesel on October 15, 2014, 06:51:03 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Warhawk on October 15, 2014, 07:11:09 pm
I can't wait for the full review, I have already ordered one and can't wait to get it.

I was going to buy the DS1074z, but that is really obsolete at this point, because after the 'upgrade' they would both be 100MHz with the same features.
Maybe the Intensity Grading isn't as good, but I for almost $ 200 less I can live with that.

As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: sweesiong78 on October 15, 2014, 07:16:02 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.

dont you use phonetic alphabet 'zebra' then? sounds more like zee to me
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2014, 07:16:56 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

I'm with Dave, but then again I'm an Amateur Radio operator, probably makes me a bit biased.

dont you use phonetic alphabet 'zebra' then? sounds more like zee to me

Z is Zulu.

I suggest you learn to cope with the proper pronounciation.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rufus on October 15, 2014, 07:17:13 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

Because the world will surely fall apart if the alphabet song doesn't rhyme.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rutger on October 15, 2014, 07:26:09 pm
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

I am confused as well about the hardware differences, I think the hardware of the DS1074Z and the DS1054Z is the same (or similair) and that the Dave mentioned the grading isn't as good as the DS2000 series. Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

I have just noticed that on the Rigol website the product page for the DS1054Z they used a picture of the DS1104Z and it has one extra button above the input jack 2.
Even Rigol has now so many versions of the same scope that they only bother to take 1 picture. Maybe Rigol is also confused.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2014, 07:28:12 pm
Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

No. The -S model has one more button, the MSO1000Z has one more button, the MSO1000Z-S has two more buttons.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rutger on October 15, 2014, 07:49:25 pm
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, then why would anyone buy the DS1074z for $ 186 USD more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.  Personally I think Rigol made a bit mistake releasing this scope at this price, they should have made it $ 499 USD, but I am not complaining.

Now they are hurting the sale of the DS1052E at $ 329 USD and DS1074Z at $ 580 USD, which both are now becoming a bad choice if you want your best bang for your buck.

From a business prospective they have left $ 100 on the table, I would have bought the unit if it was $ 499, heck I was ready to pay $ 580 for the same unit!
Also were are they going from here? If the DS1052E started at $ 800 and now is $ 329 (50% and more off). That would mean the DS1054Z will cost $ 199 in 4 years? CrazY!
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 15, 2014, 07:51:43 pm
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, they why would anyone buy the DS1074z for $ 181 USD more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.

Because educational establishments and small businesses generally do not use keygens to unlock features.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Warhawk on October 15, 2014, 08:22:21 pm
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

I am confused as well about the hardware differences, I think the hardware of the DS1074Z and the DS1054Z is the same (or similair) and that the Dave mentioned the grading isn't as good as the DS2000 series. Doesn't the DS1074z have 2 more buttons?

I have just noticed that on the Rigol website the product page for the DS1054Z they used a picture of the DS1104Z and it has one extra button above the input jack 2.
Even Rigol has now so many versions of the same scope that they only bother to take 1 picture. Maybe Rigol is also confused.

Well, as I said before. Yesterday, those two Rigol representatives had no idea about existence of DS1054z and it was very surprising for them that I know more about their scopes then they do (sometimes). Thanks eevblog !  :-+
Even though I consider them very new to their position (FAE & salesman) it was a pleasure to talk with them. For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products, especially considering the price point. Their spectrum analyser or RF generator were also very nice.

I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy. Just imagine what happens: They can sell maybe hundreds of ds1104z to some companies or universities but I am sure that they will sell thousands to hobbyists. They sell probably exactly same units, but officials will never do hacks. At least I can't imagine my company having a hacked scopes. Nobody would not even think about it.
The result is that when my FW colleague asked me for a cheap oscilloscope with a serial decoding, which he can have on his desk as long as project lasts, I would tell him "buy ds1104" because I know that he can easily afford it from his project budget and it works enough for him. That is the point. I mean I have ds1000 series at home, I know what it is capable of and I usually know what he needs. HAMEG3000 series is nice but it is a waste of money for someone who just needs an elementary functionality with eg. serial decoding trigger.

Of course I am not saying that RIGOL is the best. I just want to say that many high-end scopes are generally used whole lifecycle for elementary measurements only. It makes me sad when I see some of my FW colleagues desperately pushing the autoset button on our Waverunner 6zi trying to get a dutycycle measurement...

btw: I told them they should update their webpage and also put there a latest firmware !  8) ::)

 
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: HighVoltage on October 15, 2014, 08:48:15 pm
I am surprised the Wikipedia site for Rigol has one line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigol)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Bored@Work on October 15, 2014, 08:53:37 pm
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products,
Since you also mentioned Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons? Before R&S bought them they were 120. R&S killed Hameg's own production, to get the cost down. So that's probably what the missing 60 persons were doing.

Quote
especially considering the price point.
That's the advantage of being in China.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Rutger on October 15, 2014, 09:13:49 pm
Here is my take on the Rigol selection guide;
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Warhawk on October 15, 2014, 09:27:49 pm
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products,
Since you also mentioned Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons? Before R&S bought them they were 120. R&S killed Hameg's own production, to get the cost down. So that's probably what the missing 60 persons were doing.

Quote
especially considering the price point.
That's the advantage of being in China.

Quote
Hameg, you know that Hameg are only 60 persons?

I had no idea. I feel bad for them :-[ They did a good job with 3000 series.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: max666 on October 15, 2014, 11:07:48 pm
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on October 15, 2014, 11:10:58 pm
http://youtu.be/kb9P1Am9aFU (http://youtu.be/kb9P1Am9aFU)
I like the metal shileding of DS1054Z and metal rotary encoders. In Agilent scopes, they are plastic.  :( :(
I do not like the CapXon capacitors in the switched power supply. I have read bad reports about them.

Some day, the CapXons might go off and kill the motherboard. http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?p=39119 (http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?p=39119)
(In DS2000 there are EPCOS capacitors according to Dave's teardown.]
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on October 15, 2014, 11:18:49 pm
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
Agilent helped Rigol to launch production of Agilent DSO1000 and DSO3000. Rigol learned something and started production of their own scopes. Or something like that is how the story happened.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:37:19 am
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

If you could enabled the option in software, then yes, that would be interesting. The hardware is likely FPGA based though, not just discrete hardware.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:41:46 am
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z
Nor really if we're talking about prices of brand-new units from rigol and like official distributors? Sure if you can find 1052E for a half of the price it's not crazy at all :)

If you absolutely only have that amount of cash, then yes, it's an option. The 1054Z is 10 times the scope for less than double the price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:42:23 am
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

No.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:44:44 am
As the owner of DS1074z I am really getting lost in all those information. You say that ds1054z has a different intensity grading that ds1074z or 1104z ?
I think the last conclusion was that all models have identical HW, right ?

It is. All 1000Z's are the same. They are different from the DS2000.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:51:46 am
For me it is somehow unbelievable how such a small company ("+400 people show") can do such nice products, especially considering the price point. Their spectrum analyser or RF generator were also very nice.

They likely have the vast majority devoted to engineering and production, and not sales. Unlike other companies like my former employer Altium who had 300+ at one point and the number of programmers actually working on their one core product you could count on both hands.

Quote
I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy.

It's not. That comes directly from them.
They know they can't stop it, and they don't rarely care much because as much as we think it matters in our circles, and "everyone does it", the truth is vast majority of buyers do not even know the scope is hackable, and wouldn't do so even if they did.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 12:55:26 am
What did Dave mean, when he said "Agilent really helped them out there and they are regretting that big time now"?
Agilent helped Rigol to launch production of Agilent DSO1000 and DSO3000. Rigol learned something and started production of their own scopes. Or something like that is how the story happened.

Yes, Agilent bought Rigol on board to design and manufacture their low end scopes (the Agilent 3000 & 1000 series, not the 3000X series). And Agilent didn't just take it and rebadge it, they helped Rigol with design, production, and firmware quality systems. Now they have created a monster and they deeply regret it.


Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: miguelvp on October 16, 2014, 01:14:55 am
I'm curious to see a DS1074Z-S teardown. Maybe we can mod the DS1054Z to add signal generation functionality  :o.

If you could enabled the option in software, then yes, that would be interesting. The hardware is likely FPGA based though, not just discrete hardware.

Yup, reply #14 by hans, has pictures of the -S model with the daughter board featuring an Altera Cyclone IV EP4CE22F17C8N strange that it's an 8 class speed, it's the same FPGA as the DE0-Nano but class 8 instead of 6.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EMC on October 16, 2014, 01:20:57 am
Teriffic teardown.  When a review unit becomes available I suggest a comparision of 3-5 like scopes would be better than a review.   When making the decision to buy a bench scope I am not just thinking "for my applications what can it do & how well does it perform"; I am also comparing to competitors.  For me this includes remote operation and automated testing.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 01:25:32 am
Teriffic teardown.  When a review unit becomes available I suggest a comparision of 3-5 like scopes would be better than a review.   When making the decision to buy a bench scope I am not just thinking "for my applications what can it do & how well does it perform"; I am also comparing to competitors.  For me this includes remote operation and automated testing.

The problem with scope comparison is the time it takes. A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer. And stuff will still get missed or skimmer over in either case.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 01:34:12 am
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Nor really if we're talking about prices of brand-new units from rigol and like official distributors? Sure if you can find 1052E for a half of the price it's not crazy at all :)
I don't know what they are asking in the west, but right now in China the 1052E is about 60% of the prices of the 1054Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 16, 2014, 01:53:08 am
I hope I will not break a gentleman's code if I tell that a presentation mentioned +400 employees. I expected way more...
You can't really make sense of an employee count unless you know the company culture. If they outsource massive amounts of their work, they won't need so many people of their own. A company in Shenzhen can easily outsource practically everything, as they are surrounded by other companies specialising in everything you can think of. I think its harder to do that in Beijing, if that is actually where most of Rigol's engineering and production occurs. There just isn't the scale of manufacturing there to support sufficient service companies.

Logistics is the main reason manufacturing spreads so slowly into the Chinese hinterland. They have superb road and rail communication to most places. You can set up a large heavy system in a lab in Shenzhen, and have it sitting in place on a production line far away the next morning. Still, many places deep inside China that have tried to build up manufacturing bases find logistics a huge hindrance.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 03:55:27 am
What's going on here Dave. You do all those tough guy challenges, but are you afraid to do a scope comparison? >:D

It's the stuff of blogger nightmares!
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: mauroh on October 16, 2014, 08:26:54 am
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

DS1054Z        Dave Teardown                 
DS1074Z-S    James Lothian Teardown   
DS1104Z        Connor Wolf Teardown     

In this case the DS1054Z and DS1074Z-S have the same resistor configuration while the DS1104Z have a different one.
Since the first 2 were opened in the last few months (I guess also bought and manufactured recently) and the Connor one is older I think it is just related to the manufacturing date.

I don’t know if this is related also to some part of the firmware that can’t be updated with a normal upgrade.

By the way I bought almost one year ago a DS1074Z and Riglolled to DS1104Z full option and so far I’m really happy with this marvelous oscilloscope.
As far as I’m aware the new firmware version (>4) has not been hacked yet so the DS1054Z is only potentially-hackable at the moment.
M’I correct?

Mauro
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: leppie on October 16, 2014, 08:37:19 am
Regarding the hardware version resistors, see attached the screenshot of:

DS1054Z Dave Teardown
DS1074

Cant see any difference  :-DD
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 08:56:41 am
Quote
I also have a feeling that the "hack possibility" is a part of their business strategy.

It's not. That comes directly from them.
They know they can't stop it, and they don't rarely care much because as much as we think it matters in our circles, and "everyone does it", the truth is vast majority of buyers do not even know the scope is hackable, and wouldn't do so even if they did.

Even in this circle there's plenty of doubters, people who are 100% sure it MUST be different, somehow (although they don't know how...)

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fagear on October 16, 2014, 10:56:24 am
A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (http://youtu.be/SM2COQ_WxMA) (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG (http://youtu.be/O3pac-CExS0) took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A (http://youtu.be/VhuZL_PBpoU) took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Neoistheone2000 on October 16, 2014, 01:58:34 pm
I can't wait for the review. I'm wanting to buy my first scope and this looks like a winner for me. Question, any reason to want the 100MHz one over the 50MHz one?

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: KD0CAC John on October 16, 2014, 02:18:12 pm
Dave , do not ever , do anything like anybody else , just be Dave :)
The world would really suck if everyone was the same ;)
John
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: nixfu on October 16, 2014, 02:28:07 pm
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

The model number of the scope actually changes via firmware.  That is how you change a 70mhz 1074 into the 100mhz model. You just change the model number in the firmware.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: mauroh on October 16, 2014, 02:38:34 pm
I was wondering if the resistors to set the hardware version are related to the model or just to the manufacturing date and I collected the info I was able to quickly find on the forum:

The model number of the scope actually changes via firmware.  That is how you change a 70mhz 1074 into the 100mhz model. You just change the model number in the firmware.


Totally agree for the BW or for the SW options, but i was curious to verify that also for models with different hardware like with or without the SigGen. the resistors where the same like it is.

Mauro


Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 16, 2014, 03:25:34 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

Who's "we"...?

If you pull your head out and take a look around you might find you're actually in the minority.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: bitwelder on October 16, 2014, 05:07:59 pm
One test-point near to the Freescale processor (towards the Spartan FPGA) is marked BATTERYV.
Which battery is that about? At least I did not spot any obvious 'button cell' on the board.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: kevinpt on October 16, 2014, 05:45:14 pm
Still no probe ID rings. Why again must we be burdened by manually setting probe attenuation factor when a simple automatic solution exists? I don't see why one of the Chinese Mfrs don't just implement them across their entire product range to show up their competitors. It's not like it's particularly difficult (or expensive) to implement or patent encumbered.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: tom66 on October 16, 2014, 07:19:01 pm
One test-point near to the Freescale processor (towards the Spartan FPGA) is marked BATTERYV.
Which battery is that about? At least I did not spot any obvious 'button cell' on the board.

Since that processor is also optimised for mobile applications, it's probably the 4.2V or so input for the on-board core DC-DC converter.

ISTR that Freescale said something like you should operate it from 4.2V instead of the max rated 5V so we ended up having a SOT223 LD1117 drop the 5V supply to 4.2V for the i.MX's buck converter, since the application was mains powered.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: saturation on October 16, 2014, 07:23:28 pm
Another great eevblog review.  Great to see the PCB up close and compare it to the 1052e, both have detailed photos on Flickr.

Pending a review, Fagear has done a good job going through all the menu options, its clear and easily demos many functions so you don't really need to speak Russian to get something out of it. Spasibo.

A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (http://youtu.be/SM2COQ_WxMA) (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG (http://youtu.be/O3pac-CExS0) took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A (http://youtu.be/VhuZL_PBpoU) took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: m100 on October 16, 2014, 08:24:47 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: BFX on October 16, 2014, 09:31:10 pm
Thanks, cool teardown 8) But I like my Owon 8202V  :D
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Maxlor on October 16, 2014, 10:05:29 pm
I don't think hackability is such a big thing, certainly not in business. I bought a DS1104Z-S last year with several options. Wouldn't dream of buying a lower model and hacking it; it's just bad karma to do those things when you're using the stuff commercially. Besides, the money is peanuts compared to e.g. the 6-digit sums we're spending on COMSOL licenses. Ridiculously expensive those.

I also don't think the hobbyist market is that big. If I had to guess, I'd say the biggest piece of the pie by far for rigol is their domestic market, followed by rest of the world commercial, followed by hobbyists. I don't have any hard data though, it's just a guess.

Btw, am I the only one who feels that their decoding upgrades are really not worth the money, since them being limited to screen area makes them only mildly useful?

The DS1054Z is a fantastic overall deal though. I'm not missing the -S functionality either, since it's so cheap that a separate signal gen is affordable for a hobbyist too. And that one will have an UI that probably isn't as cumbersome to use :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 10:49:08 pm
Dave , do not ever , do anything like anybody else , just be Dave :)

Did I missing something?  :-//
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 16, 2014, 10:52:51 pm
I'm not missing the -S functionality either, since it's so cheap that a separate signal gen is affordable for a hobbyist too.

All the scopes with signal gens now are all pretty mediocre. They are OK for basic use, but like you said, really useful signal gens are pretty cheap these days.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: AG6QR on October 16, 2014, 11:38:31 pm
I don't know what they are asking in the west, but right now in China the 1052E is about 60% of the prices of the 1054Z.

In the USA, from tequipment.net (a reasonably competitive seller), the 1052E is $329, while the 1054Z is $399.  In other words, the 1052E is about 82% the price of a 1054Z.

I think the marketplace will eventually sort that out.  I can't imagine many people choosing the 1052E these days at those relative price levels.  I suspect it won't be too long before the 1052E is discontinued and the remaining stock is sold at clearance prices, whatever they can get.  It's had a good run.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 03:50:19 am
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
Is that a typo on their web site? It seems to price the 1054Z well below the price in China or the US.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: AG6QR on October 17, 2014, 05:05:57 am
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Maybe from some outlets but from Rigol UK they are somewhat suprisingly identical in price at GBP286.80 (including VAT)

The new one looks good but i'm happy with my Hong Kong bought, self hacked to 100MHz 1052E for now ;D
Is that a typo on their web site? It seems to price the 1054Z well below the price in China or the US.

The price on their website is GBP 286.80.  That's about $460 in US Dollars at today's exchange rates.  The price from US retailers is around $400.  There are differing tax rates in those prices, and sales tax might be added to the US price, but all in all, it seems to be slightly cheaper to buy one in the US than in the UK.  The prices aren't wildly different, though.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 17, 2014, 05:53:56 am
The price on their website is GBP 286.80.  That's about $460 in US Dollars at today's exchange rates.  The price from US retailers is around $400.  There are differing tax rates in those prices, and sales tax might be added to the US price, but all in all, it seems to be slightly cheaper to buy one in the US than in the UK.  The prices aren't wildly different, though.
That's 286.8 pounds including 20% VAT. Its 239 without VAT. That's $383 using your exchange rate. I got the exchange rate wrong, so its not as cheap as I thought. However, electronics in the UK is usually wayyyyy above the US price, so this is a very good deal for that market.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: tom66 on October 17, 2014, 09:36:22 am
Did you feel that? My DS1074Z just lost a bit of value.
I might just go and buy a DS1054Z and sell my old 1074Z...
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Nuno_pt on October 17, 2014, 10:02:11 am
Hi all,

The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 17, 2014, 10:21:26 am
I might just go and buy a DS1054Z and sell my old 1074Z...

If you can make a profit doing so, why not!
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: android on October 17, 2014, 12:43:04 pm
If you take a close look at the PCB you'll see that the four channel inputs are not 100% exactly the same. An easy way to check is to look at the board square on and cross your eyes until two of the channels line up. Your eyes will lock on and the differences will stick out like dog's balls! ...you get a rather cool 3D effect too :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: dougg on October 17, 2014, 04:28:22 pm
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'

You haven't convinced your northern neighbo_u_rs yet. Besides zed works just fine in Quebec. Speaking of which, y'all might think of switching to zeta in sympathy with your 50 million Hispanics  :)

In the forthcoming review of the "Z", I would be interested if the optional SPI decode works and can handle the clock, MISO and MOSI sensibly since it is a 4 channel scope. The speed of the SPI may be an issue.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 06:06:44 am
In the forthcoming review of the "Z", I would be interested if the optional SPI decode works and can handle the clock, MISO and MOSI sensibly since it is a 4 channel scope.

Haven't tried SPI but RS232 and I2C certainly work.

Edit: Still haven't physically tried it but SPI mode has three input channel selection options - CLK/MISO/MOSI. You could use the 4th channel for CS (and trigger on it...)

PS: ...and you can do 2 I2C buses simultaneously.

The speed of the SPI may be an issue.

It wouldn't be the fault of the 'scope if you're trying to decode 100MHz SPI.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: hans on October 18, 2014, 08:53:45 am
I've successfully been able to decode ~19MHz SPI busses with quite poor signal integrity (I only had 1 GND probe hooked up, on the CS line).. Like for example, a 19MHz SPI bus with 20MHz bandwidth limit turned on all channels to 'clean up' the display (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/207647/DS1Z_QucikPrint2.png).

So in that case unless you're doing something really crazy at 20MHz the scope will pick it up. Do realize that the decoding is software processing, so although the scope may update 1000 times second at that rate, the decoding bar will not. I think the decoder can be quite a slow at times when you freeze the screen, because with such a "complex" signal it can take half a second before the decoded data appears (still using version 2 SP5 firmware - it may be much improved in version 4).
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 18, 2014, 09:37:20 am
dave, start pronouncing 'Z' like we do, 'zee'
You haven't convinced your northern neighbo_u_rs yet.

I actually prefer American spelling (and have adopted it even though I don't say 'zee'). The USA's 19th century spelling reformers were onto something.

"Colour" looks too French to me these days.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: hikariuk on October 18, 2014, 01:22:26 pm
Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, they why would anyone buy the DS1074z for  more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.

Because educational establishments and small businesses generally do not use keygens to unlock features.

A lot of individuals won't either.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Robyn on October 18, 2014, 01:30:32 pm
@Dave at 33:33 you talk about the memory. It has 512Mbit. That is enough. It has maximum 24MS that means 24M * 16Bits that is 48MByte. If you use more than one channel you have only 12MS (2 channel), 6MS (3 channel), 6MS (4 channel). Each sample has 16 bits because it need 10 bits in some modes the 1054Z use 12bit ADC.
Edit: it is 12 bit >= 5µs/div, and only 6MS with 3 channel

at 33:36 you think that the left key row has spezial functions. I see 7 lines going there (Perhaps a 3x4 matrix). The 4 pin connector right to it has nothing to do with them for me, because i think i see 4 seperate lines going to the connector.

Hi all,
The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.

 If you want to order there, Perhaps I can help you to get a better price. Or if more than you want one, i will ask for a discount code (all products) for the eevblog.

I can't wait until I will have mine.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Macbeth on October 18, 2014, 01:53:36 pm
If you take a close look at the PCB you'll see that the four channel inputs are not 100% exactly the same. An easy way to check is to look at the board square on and cross your eyes until two of the channels line up. Your eyes will lock on and the differences will stick out like dog's balls! ...you get a rather cool 3D effect too :)
I can never get that trick to work. But I suffer from amblyopia, so that could be the reason. In fact it's the only reason I haven't invested in Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic CastAR system :(

3D kinda works for me, but can become really uncomfortable on my stupid eye. :(
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 19, 2014, 08:57:37 am
@Dave at 33:33 you talk about the memory. It has 512Mbit. That is enough. It has maximum 24MS that means 24M * 16Bits that is 48MByte. If you use more than one channel you have only 12MS (2 channel), 6MS (3 channel), 6MS (4 channel). Each sample has 16 bits because it need 10 bits in some modes the 1054Z use 12bit ADC.
Edit: it is 12 bit >= 5µs/div, and only 6MS with 3 channel

No, the ADC is only 8 bit. If you're talking about High Res mode, that's just the DSO averaging sequential sample points within the same acquisition to produce added bits of vertical resolution.

The number of added bits is dependent on the time base setting, and the slower the setting, the greater the number of samples that are averaged together for each display point, trading off BW for resolution - since it effectively acts like a low-pass filter which limits the real-time bandwidth. An extra bit of vertical resolution is produced for every factor of 4 averages, so 4, 16, 64, or 256 successive samples are averaged for, respectively, 9, 10, 11, or 12 bits of resolution.
 
If the DS1000Z is like the DS2000, High Res can be turned on and off for a captured waveform (i.e. when the DSO is stopped). That means that the original samples must not be overwritten or changed since there would be no way to reverse the process and recover them after averaging. So if the DSO *is* doing the averaging in sample memory, it's using different memory locations to store the 9-12 bit sums.

Since the DSO has a maximum of 24M of sample memory - that would mean it would need, at a maximum, an additional 24/4 of memory for storing the sums - or 30M of total sample memory - or the next larger stock DRAM size, which, coincidentally, would be 32M * 16.  :)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Topop on October 19, 2014, 08:42:47 pm
Dave,

Great job once again, loved it. 

Doing side by each review of products would be a pain, lengthy, and time consuming.  A much simpler question is why I should spend significantly more on an entry level Tek product (if there is such a thing).  What is the difference in the feature mix and build quality?  Don’t get me wrong, Tek makes great stuff and I own a quarter ton of it, literally, and love it all.  But when this hobbyist had to put down hard earned dollars for my first DSO I had to go with the DS2072A. 

Oh yea, I almost forgot.  Dave, please show some respect!  Please turn the Tek scope on the shelf right side up! :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: ThisNameIsBlank on October 19, 2014, 09:36:28 pm

Hi all,
The price on the 54Z in Batronix it's 355.81€ with VAT and free shipping to EU, at today ratings it's £283.32 and $455.91.

 If you want to order there, Perhaps I can help you to get a better price. Or if more than you want one, i will ask for a discount code (all products) for the eevblog.

I can't wait until I will have mine.

I'm certainly interested - I joined this forum recently with the intention of finding a good, cheap first scope.  I've been watching reviews and reading ever since.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: bitblt on October 20, 2014, 07:56:48 am
I'm definitely interested in the Rigol DS1054Z.  I'll probably wait for Dave's full review.   I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on the DS1074Z.  The price for an intensity graded display is pretty compelling.  Although I'm still considering the Hantek MSO5054F for only a buck more.

I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.  And it's aluminum, not aluminium.  ;)

Great teardown by the way.  :-+
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: SNGLinks on October 20, 2014, 08:41:02 am


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 20, 2014, 09:32:20 am


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.

Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Smokey on October 21, 2014, 02:13:12 am


I agree, it should be Zee.  Zed is dead.


No way! Stops confusion between C and Z.

Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

on the little kangaroo?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 21, 2014, 09:09:38 am
Ooops! Somebody missed the movie reference.

on the little kangaroo?

Skippy! Skippy! Skippy the bush kangaroo...


(Hands up who just had a flashback image of a helicopter?)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Robyn on October 21, 2014, 04:48:19 pm

No, the ADC is only 8 bit. If you're talking about High Res mode, that's just the DSO averaging sequential sample points within the same acquisition to produce added bits of vertical resolution.

 No, I am not talking about the High Res Mode, I was talking about the specification (batronix.com page) that I read. It says
Quote
    Vertical:     Digital Oscilloscope Rigol DS1054Z
    Analog digital converter (A/D) :    12 Bit at ? 5 µs/div  ,   8 Bit at ? 2 µs/div
    Sensitivity range (V/div):    1 mV/div to 10 V/div
    Offset range:                       1 mV/div to 10 V/div
I know, when I read a ADC of a µC, I can read it in 8 Bit  fast Mode because I read only the upper Bits and sampling is faster, or I can read 12 Bit Mode, it is slower but I have 12Bit resolution. I expect the same in the DS1054Z, because of the spezification.

Quote
Since the DSO has a maximum of 24M of sample memory - that would mean it would need, at a maximum, an additional 24/4 of memory for storing the sums - or 30M of total sample memory - or the next larger stock DRAM size, which, coincidentally, would be 32M * 16.  :)
  I know how to calculate, but they don't take 32M because it was the next larger size of Samplesize, they need some more memory for calculaculating, tabels , pointers etc, that is about 8 M*16 , because they need hat, they calculated  16Mx16, but it  ist to small, because thats only room 8M Sample. so they had to take 32Mx16 and so they got a value of 24 M possible Samples.
 I was talking about it, because dave had problems with the 512Mbit RAM size in the video, he thought it was to small and was looking for more. I think he calculated 24MS * 4 Channels that make 96MBytes but he found only 512Mbit. No big problem, i like the video, it gave me a lot of information and i wanted to give some back. Thank you to dave for it.


Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 05:12:48 pm
No, I am not talking about the High Res Mode, I was talking about the specification (batronix.com page) that I read. It says
That specification is a mistake - or at least, a conflation of specs. It's mixing the REAL sample resolution with the EFFECTIVE resolution of High Res mode. It lists the same thing for the DS2000A, which, I can assure you, uses an 8-bit ADC.

Quote
I know, when I read a ADC of a µC, I can read it in 8 Bit  fast Mode because I read only the upper Bits and sampling is faster, or I can read 12 Bit Mode, it is slower but I have 12Bit resolution. I expect the same in the DS1054Z, because of the spezification.
Well I hate to tell you this, but your expectations are incorrect. You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1511.pdf). It's an 8-bit only ADC. The 12-bits they refer to in the Batronix specs are in High Res mode.

Not only that, but I suspect the timebases of that spec are incorrect since they match the ones listed for the DS2000A precisely (which has double the max. sample speed). As shown in the chart at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/), these are the bit resolutions for the DS2000(A) at various timebases when using High Res, and I suspect the DS1000Z's might be one time base slower (although I'll test it with the one that is arriving in a couple of days).

Quote
I was talking about it, because dave had problems with the 512Mbit RAM size in the video, he thought it was to small and was looking for more. I think he calculated 24MS * 4 Channels that make 96MBytes but he found only 512Mbit.
I understand. I only mentioned it because you were wrong about the ADC needing to store 12-bit samples - except when calculating High Res mode (which might be done in display memory).
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 21, 2014, 05:17:18 pm
You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1511.pdf). It's an 8-bit only ADC.

And how was it determined this is the ADC in use?

https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf)

Pin compatible, 8/12/14-bit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 05:26:08 pm
You just have to read the specs of the ADC used inside of the DS1000Z series (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1511.pdf). It's an 8-bit only ADC.

And how was it determined this is the ADC in use?

https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf (https://www.hittite.com/content/documents/data_sheet/hmcad1520.pdf)

Pin compatible, 8/12/14-bit.
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time. In fact it only achieves 12 bits by repeated sampling and dithering. The Batronix page isn't clear about this, but the Rigol data sheet is - both the English and Chinese versions, which are more similar than most translations.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 21, 2014, 05:27:04 pm
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 05:33:55 pm
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?

It's 12-bits for a single channel. Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 05:35:51 pm
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
You have a point. It can take 640Ms/s at 12 bits, which isn't too shabby. Maybe the high-resolution mode really is real time.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 05:37:14 pm
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?

It's 12-bits for a single channel. Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit-on-single-channel capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?
Where did you get the idea its only single channel at 12 bits? The data sheet shows 1,2 and 4 channel operation at 12 and 14 bits, although the 14 bit speed is pretty slow.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 05:39:56 pm
Where did you get the idea its only single channel at 12 bits? The data sheet shows 1,2 and 4 channel operation at 12 and 14 bits, although the 14 bit speed is pretty slow.

Already edited before you posted.

You have a point. It can take 640Ms/s at 12 bits, which isn't too shabby. Maybe the high-resolution mode really is real time.

I would love if that was true - but to say I'm dubious would be an understatement  ;D  I will test it in a couple of days, but I'm fairly certain it's done in software - like the rest of the much more costly UltraVision DSOs. One giveaway is the exact replication of Vertical specifications on Batronix between the DS1000Z and DS2000A. Also, I'm fairly sure it would be a nice advertising point for Rigol if it were a real 12-bit ADC at slower speeds (no mention in the datasheet).
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Monkeh on October 21, 2014, 05:40:44 pm
If they had used the 12 or 14 bit version the oscilloscope would sample at 12 or 14 bits all the time.

Not at 1GS/s it wouldn't. Take the time to at least read the first page of the datasheet?
It's 12-bits for a single channel.

No, it's quad channel. Even in 14-bit mode.

Quote
Do you think Rigol is paying what I would expect would be a fairly hefty premium to install a 12-bit-on-single-channel capable ADC in their bottom-of-the-line DSO - while still offering an effective 12-bit High Res mode for all 4-channels via the FW?

I have no idea what they're paying and at present no concrete evidence to tell whether it's a HMCAD1511 or 1520.

I actually agree it's more likely to be the 1511 and oversampling, but until I know for sure, I will question assumptions and consider possibilities..
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 21, 2014, 05:44:31 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Where can you buy the DS1052E at that price? Which distributor? Link to their website?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: coppice on October 21, 2014, 05:53:41 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Where can you buy the DS1052E at that price? Which distributor? Link to their website?
Resellers in China have the DS1052E for a little more than half the price of the DS1054Z. Rigol's front page now has the DS1054Z at CNY2580 and the DS1102U at CNY1580, so it looks like the list price of the simpler scopes is being adjusted in relation to the DS1054Z's low price.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 06:03:26 pm
No, it's quad channel. Even in 14-bit mode.

Yes, that was struckthrough moments after writing it.

Quote
I have no idea what they're paying and at present no concrete evidence to tell whether it's a HMCAD1511 or 1520.

I actually agree it's more likely to be the 1511 and oversampling, but until I know for sure, I will question assumptions and consider possibilities..

As mentioned, if it's a true 12-bit ADC, they are WAY underselling it in the advertising and datasheet specs ;D   But will check soon...
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 21, 2014, 06:20:51 pm
BTW, if anyone with a DS1000Z wants to check it it's got a real 12-bit ADC :D that it uses in High Res mode:

Set the DSO to 1 channel ON, 50us/div, highest memory depth (12M/AUTO), and send it a 10MHz sine wave. If, when you turn on High Res, the waveform vanishes to an almost flat line (< 1mVpp), it ain't.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: miguelvp on October 21, 2014, 06:29:33 pm
Since the 1520 cost half more than the 1511 I will think it's the 1511.

$60-80 compared to $116 even at high quantities the difference could be $20 (say $30 vs $50) on a $300 scope with many other components I will doubt they will use the 1520, but then again, who knows, a long term contract could bring the price pretty low I guess.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: tinhead on October 21, 2014, 06:33:16 pm
the best would be probably to check how the ADC is being configured, as far i understood HMCAD1520 need to be set to HMCAD1511 mode (register lvds_output_mode) and/or high speed and precision mode.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: SharpEars on October 21, 2014, 06:34:33 pm
Dave, I just want to know if you've compared the intensity grading on the 1000Z vs the DS2000 and which version you like better (and why)?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: netdudeuk on October 21, 2014, 07:00:34 pm
Dave said on the video that the scope has segmented memory.  He didn't say anything else about it.  Anyone have any experience of this on this range of scopes ?  Anything to do with
Waveform Record ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: kwass on October 22, 2014, 12:44:32 am
BTW, if anyone with a DS1000Z wants to check it it's got a real 12-bit ADC :D that it uses in High Res mode:

Set the DSO to 1 channel ON, 50us/div, highest memory depth (12M/AUTO), and send it a 10MHz sine wave. If, when you turn on High Res, the waveform vanishes to an almost flat line (< 1mVpp), it ain't.

I've tried this (on a modded 1054z) and while it certainly degrades it's far from flat.  However at 20ms/div is does go flat and then at 50ms/div it's back to something reasonable.  I guess that the oversampling cancels itself out at 20ms/div.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 22, 2014, 01:08:57 am
I've tried this (on a modded 1054z) and while it certainly degrades it's far from flat.  However at 20ms/div is does go flat and then at 50ms/div it's back to something reasonable.  I guess that the oversampling cancels itself out at 20ms/div.

I used flat in a relative way - that's why I added < 1mVpp - you have to increase the vertical scale to find out exactly how low the amplitude is. On my DS2000, the amplitude of a 3Vpp 10MHz sine wave goes to ~ 1mVpp @ 50ms/div. That's from the low pass comb filter of successive sampling averaging, but the amplitude will be different on the DS1000Z because of the lower max.sample rate (and depending on how many samples it's averaging).

I don't know if the DS1000Z is doing 256 sample averaging, but if/when it is, I believe there is a null valley at 7.81MHz which will give almost perfect 0V amplitude (+/- a pixel at the lowest vertical scale).

EDIT: I forgot momentarily that the DS1000Z max. sample rate is half that of the DS2000, so the nulls, of course, begin at half that of the DS2000. The nulls for 1GSa/s @ 256 samples averaged are ~3.9MHz and it's harmonics. Anytime the DS1000Z might be averaging to 12 bits (regardless if the rate is lower than 1GSa/s), you should have a null (0V amplitude +/- a pixel at the lowest vertical scale) at that frequency.

You can calculate the -3dB BW in High Res (if you know the number of samples averaged) by 0.433*(sample rate/samples averaged). You can reverse-calculate the number of samples averaged by finding the -3dB BW first.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: klaus11 on October 22, 2014, 10:23:42 am
Hi all, newbie here not mistreated too. I'm thinking about buying the Rigol DS1054Z and am awaiting Batronix stocks.
  I wonder; Will come in this new batch of Rigol DS1054Z manufactured with the same quality and "ease" of hackering?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Sjokolade on October 22, 2014, 11:27:52 am
Price here in Norway is 508 US$ + tax, thats 635 US$.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2014, 11:32:21 am
I'm thinking about buying the Rigol DS1054Z and am awaiting Batronix stocks.
I wonder; Will come in this new batch of Rigol DS1054Z manufactured with the same quality and "ease" of hackering?

It's so new that no firmware updates haven't been released yet, so any firmware hacks should still work. Rigol have a history of closing hack loopholes in the previous scope firmware though.
Hardware hacks have yet to be verified.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: nowlan on October 22, 2014, 12:05:36 pm
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2014, 01:14:58 pm
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?

Yep, exact same scope, just 50MHz.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: SharpEars on October 22, 2014, 04:46:52 pm
A proper full review video will likely be pushing an hour. A full comparison with other would be much longer.
I've tried to review DS1104Z-S (http://youtu.be/SM2COQ_WxMA) (russian language) some time ago and it take me almost 2 and a half hours! :scared:
Internal AWG (http://youtu.be/O3pac-CExS0) took another 40 minutes.
And I had never touched remote operation...  :palm:
DS1000Z vs. DS2000A (http://youtu.be/VhuZL_PBpoU) took another hour.
Sorry, all videos are in Russian, maybe I'll do English subtitles for them one day... But still, there is something to look at even if you don't understand the language.

One thing to notice: I've managed to achieve ~63000 wfs/s on DS1104Z-S! Not claimed 30000. Is it possible on DS1054Z?
And is it posible to hack BW with keys? :-/O

I just watched the first half of your DS1000Z vs DS2000A review and it is the best damn oscilloscope comparison review I have ever seen in my life  :-+! Wow, you've got a review of the 2072a as well (2072a review (http://youtu.be/Sj1CX10lSYE)). Too bad they're all in Russian  :( . My Russian language understanding is horrible (especially understanding all the non-English sounding technical jargon), but I was able to follow along and your review was truly comprehensive. I especially liked your use of the word "musar" throughout the review in the protocol decoding portions. I don't know why, but it sounded hilarious to me, not sure if that was intentional or not.

If I had the time, I'd do a rough overdub of it in English for Oz, Brits and us Yanks, but that would take at least a solid day out of my life... Maybe if I am off from work one day...
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: BUkitoo on October 23, 2014, 01:21:26 am
 >:(
In Argentina, the main distributor (hopefully there are 2) won´t import this Rigol Model! They will import the 70MHz version! With all the ridiculous taxes we have, the unit will cost more than 850 u$s !  |O
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: EEVblog on October 23, 2014, 02:54:45 am
FYI those in Oz who have been asking.
Emona will have stock on the 11th Nov.
I suspect they might sell out.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: klaus11 on October 23, 2014, 06:01:26 am
The firmware does the DS1104Z is here Top-oscilloscopes.com search DS1104Z - Dowload. I can not put URL requests password to access.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Robyn on October 23, 2014, 08:45:34 am
Is this just a 50mhz version of the cheap 4 channel Z scope?

Yep, exact same scope, just 50MHz.
 
 Perhaps they produce on one line, they measure it at the end, the better ones get 1104Z and the other 1074Z or 1054Z. I don't know if that is true, just an idea.

... I still have to wait 3 weeks until mine arrives.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 23, 2014, 09:36:03 am
Well, it would appear that there is a bit of a frenzy currently occurring in regards to this new gadget and from what I saw Dave gave it his approval.   :-+

And I must admit that another DSO on my bench was hardly a priority until I saw Dave gut it and others having their way with other similar models on the tube thingo.

Here in AUS they are currently listed at $439.00 + 10% GST, so around $483.00 and I only found one supplier here on google called Eyou (never dealt with them) and then I recalled Dave mention Emona (have dealt with them), so when I have finished reading all of the associated downloaded literature in relation to the product I will share the love and Emona will get my money.

Muttley

PS; to those who have one;
1. Can the soft button icons be removed for de-clutter.
2. Can it read Rs 485 with a 232-485 converter.
3. What happens when you plug a mouse into the USB.

 :-//





Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2014, 09:46:13 am
PS; to those who have one;
1. Can the soft button icons be removed for de-clutter.

I don't think so, but they're hardly "clutter". You use them all the time.

2. Can it read Rs 485 with a 232-485 converter.

RS485 is a hardware specification so, "no".

It can read RS232 though.


3. What happens when you plug a mouse into the USB.

No idea, but I'm betting you don't get a mouse cursor on screen.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Muttley Snickers on October 23, 2014, 10:00:07 am
Wow,
3 strikes,
I think under the rules with you as referee
that puts me out.   :-DD

Muttley
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2014, 10:49:22 am
Wow,
3 strikes,
I think under the rules with you as referee
that puts me out.   :-DD

Muttley

What did you want? A medal?

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080606085924/wackyraces/images/a/a8/WW_1.gif)
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 23, 2014, 11:57:38 am
For those still wondering whether the DS1000Z has a 12-bit ADC which it uses in High Res mode, the answer is most definitely no (big surprise  ;) ).

I posted a comparison of High Res mode on the DS1000Z vs DS2000 here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1074z-oscillosope/msg535508/#msg535508); there is quite a major difference between them.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: kwass on October 23, 2014, 01:23:46 pm

3. What happens when you plug a mouse into the USB.

No idea, but I'm betting you don't get a mouse cursor on screen.

You're correct, nothing happens.  I've tried various other devices as well, including a small USB 2.0 hard drive (NTFS format), but the only thing that will work are thumb drives on the front USB port.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Fungus on October 23, 2014, 02:11:24 pm
3. What happens when you plug a mouse into the USB.

No idea, but I'm betting you don't get a mouse cursor on screen.
You're correct, nothing happens. 

Darn.

What we need is somebody who's good at firmware hacking to unlock that feature. It would be awesome to use this 'scope with a mouse.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: bitblt on October 23, 2014, 05:51:12 pm
Just today someone posted on ebay some Rigol DS1054Z for $399 Buy-it-Now, with free shipping in the US only.  There is limited quantity so anyone interested might want to act quickly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: David Hess on October 23, 2014, 06:19:51 pm
The all-discrete frontend really impresses me. Especially since it's 2014 and you could just buy a LMH6518 and call it a day. Way more expensive though...

It is more expensive than a discrete design at 100 MHz but that may not be true at 200 MHz like in the DS2000A series.  The emitter networks shown in the schematic Dave reverse engineered imply that they had to push pretty hard to get a workable discrete 100 MHz design.

Quote
I cannot find a comparator for the trigger, so it seems like they're doing digital trigger based on the ADC samples. When sampling on 4 channels ad 250MSa/s each with 100MHz bandwidth, that's barely over nyquist. Interesting to see what trigger jitter is like...

I would like to see this as well.  I would be one of the first things I would test.

Ok, so if the hardware on the DS1054z and the DS1074z are identical, then why would anyone buy the DS1074z for $ 186 USD more? Because that is really not worth the extra 20MHz, plus after the upgrade/hack they are both at 100MHz.  Personally I think Rigol made a bit mistake releasing this scope at this price, they should have made it $ 499 USD, but I am not complaining.

There might be calibration or grading differences.  If transient response calibration was done in software, then the lower bandwidth models may perform differently than higher bandwidth ones when hacked.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: edavid on October 23, 2014, 06:33:32 pm
Just today someone posted on ebay some Rigol DS1054Z for $399 Buy-it-Now, with free shipping in the US only.  There is limited quantity so anyone interested might want to act quickly.

It's listed by tequipment.  There's no reason to buy it from them on eBay when you can get the EEVblog discount by buying directly.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: bitblt on October 23, 2014, 07:04:18 pm
It's listed by tequipment.  There's no reason to buy it from them on eBay when you can get the EEVblog discount by buying directly.

You are correct they are listed by tequipment.  Some people might prefer to use PayPal Credit for 6 months no interest.

How does one go about getting an EEVBlog discount, and how much is the discount?  Thank you.

Never mind I found the tequipment thread.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: eneuro on October 24, 2014, 10:00:50 pm
Nice to see what is inside thing one wants to buy  :-+

Just thinking why they made such waved tracks on PCB like there?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-674-rigol-ds1054z-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=114497)
It looks like such track will be much longer, but its snake shape  :wtf: it does there?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Hydrawerk on October 24, 2014, 10:18:34 pm
Probably they want all the tracks to have the same length.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: hammy on October 24, 2014, 10:21:39 pm
Have a look for: "Meanders in traces"
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: David Hess on October 25, 2014, 12:04:03 am
Just thinking why they made such waved tracks on PCB like there?

It looks like such track will be much longer, but its snake shape  :wtf: it does there?

That is to match the length of delay between signal traces.  That IC is a Hynix H5PS5162GFR DDR3 SDRAM which is 512 Mbits arranged as 64M x 8 so 64 Mbytes.  I am fuzzy about the exact requirements for DDR3 but it looks like they want significantly less than 100 picoseconds worth of skew on the interface which is significantly less than an inch of trace length difference.

Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 12:36:42 am
That IC is a Hynix H5PS5162GFR DDR3 SDRAM which is 512 Mbits arranged as 64M x 8 so 64 Mbytes.

32M X 16. Rigol is using 16-bit DRAM in all their UltraVision DSOs.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: David Hess on October 25, 2014, 01:41:27 am
That IC is a Hynix H5PS5162GFR DDR3 SDRAM which is 512 Mbits arranged as 64M x 8 so 64 Mbytes.

32M X 16. Rigol is using 16-bit DRAM in all their UltraVision DSOs.

How annoying.  Hynix puts both parts in the same datasheet and abbreviates the part numbers but you have to find the organization on the page with the packages instead of the features or description.  When I was reading it I was thinking, "This datasheet is terrible."
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: marmad on October 25, 2014, 03:19:20 pm
No, I am not talking about the High Res Mode, I was talking about the specification (batronix.com page) that I read. It says
Quote
    Vertical:     Digital Oscilloscope Rigol DS1054Z
    Analog digital converter (A/D) :    12 Bit at >= 5 µs/div  ,   8 Bit at >= 2 µs/div
I know, when I read a ADC of a µC, I can read it in 8 Bit  fast Mode because I read only the upper Bits and sampling is faster, or I can read 12 Bit Mode, it is slower but I have 12Bit resolution. I expect the same in the DS1054Z, because of the spezification.

BTW, just to keep buyers correctly informed: this spec from the Batronix site is completely wrong. Not only is it not listed on Rigol's websites, it's not supported by the documentation specs:

MSO/DS2000A manual:

"High Resolution: 12 bits of resolution when >=5 us/div @ 1 GSa/s (or >=10 us/div @ 500 MSa/s).

MSO/DS1000Z manual:

"High Resolution: 12 bit (max)"

In other words, unspecified. After numerous tests, I've yet to identify exactly when the DS1000Z might be averaging to 12 bits, although I suspect, if it actually does it, it's only at much slower timebases (e.g. >= 1ms).
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: tom66 on October 25, 2014, 07:07:00 pm
Nice to see what is inside thing one wants to buy  :-+

Just thinking why they made such waved tracks on PCB like there?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-674-rigol-ds1054z-teardown/?action=dlattach;attach=114497)
It looks like such track will be much longer, but its snake shape  :wtf: it does there?

Standard on DDR layouts.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: pascal_sweden on October 25, 2014, 10:10:51 pm
Why is buying the 1052E crazy? Its now available for around half the price of the 1054Z

Where can you buy the DS1052E at that price? Which distributor? Link to their website?

When is Rigol going to drop the price on the DS1052E? Might come in handy as a spare backup unit.
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: Bud on October 26, 2014, 02:11:07 am
Christmas ?
Title: Re: EEVblog #674 - Rigol DS1054Z Teardown
Post by: eneuro on October 26, 2014, 06:28:44 pm
That is to match the length of delay between signal traces.
I do not play with high frequency circuits designs, so it was very interesting and it is  :phew:
PDF: Meander delay compensation in high-speed digital multilayer designs (http://www.statschippac.com/services/documentlibrary/~/media/Files/DocLibrary/whitepapers/2012/STATSChipPAC_IMAPS_ISM2012_00034.ashx)

The key to gogle it was proper naming it "meander", not "snake"   ;)

Really nice teardown and next reverse engineering video of multilayered PCB  of this quite nice scope awersome  :-+