Author Topic: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!  (Read 77506 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #150 on: December 28, 2014, 12:50:25 am »
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Offline W8LV

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #151 on: December 28, 2014, 05:40:33 am »
The problem in the USA isn't that solar roadways are bullshit... it's that roadways THEMSELVES are bullshit. We spend far to much on roadway infrastructure, and put none of this towards building public transit infrastructure.  So, with no alternative,  people keep using their cars. And on and on it goes. The USA should have a high speed train service,  coast to coast.  I am bewildered as to why it does not.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #152 on: December 28, 2014, 05:46:19 am »
The problem in the USA isn't that solar roadways are bullshit... it's that roadways THEMSELVES are bullshit. We spend far to much on roadway infrastructure, and put none of this towards building public transit infrastructure.  So, with no alternative,  people keep using their cars. And on and on it goes. The USA should have a high speed train service,  coast to coast.  I am bewildered as to why it does not.

Same deal, if bullet trains where a clear winner, someone would have build one to replace air travel. If they need subsidies then it's not a clear winner.


 

Offline W8LV

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #153 on: December 28, 2014, 06:02:47 am »
All forms of transportation are subsidized. I doubt any train would replace air travel. But I'm convinced coast to coast bullet train has some advantages to car travel. In integrated system,  including light rail in the urbans and the 'burbs. Good and easy transfer from train to light rail to even bus. And even airports, for that matter.  In Canada, at Union Station in Toronto, for example, one can board the subway, or a train to Hudson's Bay, or a taxi, or even travel west to Lester Pearson International,  and go.... anywhere! The pieces of transportation fit together.  Much easier that way. Just too many cars here in the USA.  I have to drive 30 miles to work everyday. I'd love to take a light rail instead.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #154 on: December 28, 2014, 06:30:35 am »
All forms of transportation are subsidized. I doubt any train would replace air travel. But I'm convinced coast to coast bullet train has some advantages to car travel. In integrated system,  including light rail in the urbans and the 'burbs. Good and easy transfer from train to light rail to even bus. And even airports, for that matter.  In Canada, at Union Station in Toronto, for example, one can board the subway, or a train to Hudson's Bay, or a taxi, or even travel west to Lester Pearson International,  and go.... anywhere! The pieces of transportation fit together.  Much easier that way. Just too many cars here in the USA.  I have to drive 30 miles to work everyday. I'd love to take a light rail instead.

True, I used to live in the suburbs with the closest grocery store miles away and forget about public transport it was too far to walk there. But that was in Texas now I'm in Chicago city where it makes sense to have public transport because the population density is high enough.

That said, I still drive because it takes me under 10 minutes to drive to work compared to 30+ minutes taking public transport. Also the Bus will cost me about $2.25 to get there and it takes less than that on gas. Granted if I was travelling farther it might make more economical sense, in that sense public transportation in Chicago is subsidized by people that take short trips, the ones taking longer trips pay the same.

I used to have a bus pass, but now it's $100/month divided in 21.66 average days per month, that's $4.62 per day and gas is cheaper than that for my short trips. And that was when gas was expensive, now it's $2/gallon.

Only alternative is biking, but there are so many accidents involving bikers that I won't chance that, because bikers don't respect the rules of the road and cars don't respect the rules of the road either, so I'm not chancing it.

But if these guys actually come up with the good this coming year I'm so going to get one:
http://www.eliomotors.com/

84 MPG!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 06:32:29 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline cybermaus

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« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:46:38 am by cybermaus »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #156 on: December 28, 2014, 07:45:45 am »
All forms of transportation are subsidized. I doubt any train would replace air travel. But I'm convinced coast to coast bullet train has some advantages to car travel. In integrated system,  including light rail in the urbans and the 'burbs. Good and easy transfer from train to light rail to even bus. And even airports, for that matter.  In Canada, at Union Station in Toronto, for example, one can board the subway, or a train to Hudson's Bay, or a taxi, or even travel west to Lester Pearson International,  and go.... anywhere! The pieces of transportation fit together.  Much easier that way. Just too many cars here in the USA.  I have to drive 30 miles to work everyday. I'd love to take a light rail instead.

I don't see how high speed rail works at all.

It's massively expensive to build the infrastructure out, and the net result ends up being worse than what we already have.

The USA is very heavily populated in some areas (coasts and New England) and very lightly populated in others (everywhere else except Chicago/Detroit, really).  That's just about worst case for high speed trains... long distance so high cost, and not many people to pick up and drop off along the way.  We have high speed trains in New England - Boston to New York for example.  They are horrible...they cost more than first class air tickets, they take longer to arrive than just driving yourself and you still have the hassle of baggage restrictions, security, etc. 

Time for trains to go the way of the dodo.  The whole industry only survives on huge government subsidies unlike those for cars or airlines.
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Offline W8LV

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #157 on: December 28, 2014, 07:59:44 am »
Any advance in auto technology is good. I drive a Prius.  However, no matter how small or efficient, I do not see how many, many cars can drive into the centre of a city in the morning, and find a physical space where they will all fit. I tried once to use Amtrak to go to Toronto, and there go viarail (Canadian National), and the trip would have taken TWO DAYS and would have been more expensive,  as is your situation, than by car. So I just drove the trip (about ten hours with kids and breaks), parked the car in the hotel basement,  and used Toronto's subway/light rail upon arrival. In your city, I recall driving on "the loop", and found that a bit strenuous.  This would be in the vicinity of the former Meigs Airport. I believe that is no longer there.  All The Best!
Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA
 

Offline W8LV

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #158 on: December 28, 2014, 08:06:39 am »
P.S. Back to the Solar Road.. I doubt it working. That being said, I am impressed with more traffic control and signage I observe going solar... it won't cut out when the power is out, and every fraction of power generated off the grid is, I think, a good thing. We are also seeing roundabouts being installed here in Ohio, they seem to move things a bit more efficiently/safely, and of course,  do not in and of themselves require any power at all!
Best Regards from W8LV in Pickaway County, Ohio, USA
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #159 on: December 28, 2014, 08:17:08 am »
every fraction of power generated off the grid is, I think, a good thing.

No offense intended, but I think that is a very dangerous line of thinking and leads to all sorts of "bridges to nowhere".  One of the things government has completely lost track of - especially of the last several years - is that money is not an infinite resource that grows on trees.  It's very much finite and should very much be spent responsibly and carefully.  We should spend money on something wantonly just because the result is an improvement over what we have now, but rather we should spend money being careful to get the best possible ROI for those dollars.  I'm sure you agree.

For this reason, solar roadways can't work - any taxpayer should be furious that any money was spent on the cockamamie idea in the first place.
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Offline W8LV

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #160 on: December 28, 2014, 08:29:51 am »
Oh, none offence taken, I agree and feel Mr.Jones is spot-on. When I was a boy, I remember near my town, at the NASA Plum Brook facility, they built a 100kw windmill. And they let it go to weeds and rust. This thing was massive.  I forget the dimensions.  Stories high. I think in feet blades were something like 125 feet, per Two blades. Wonder what it cost us. They DID do a pretty good job putting that guy from Wakpokenetta on the moon, though... ;-)
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Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2014, 09:11:04 am »
Public transport here in South africa comes in three forms. first is rail, where there is still track laid decades ago and where there is little done other than maintenance ( somewhat) and repair as it fails or is stolen. Second is government subsidised buses, run by a few large operators ( when they are not on strike as is the current state in Durban) and where they have somewhat regular schedules and routes.

Last is the pretty much unregulated and unsubsidised private bus and mini bus taxi industry, who run routes they decide, run when full and where the vehicle or the driver may be faulty in some way pretty much all the time. Literally a cowboy industry, complete with mobsters and armed enforcers to keep the lucrative routes under control.

The costs are cheapest for rail, but there are limited numbers of trains, but if you live 100km from work ( like some of my co workers do) the $3 per day is a lot better than bus at $30. Scheduled buses are next , but there again you have them with limited schedules and routes, some only having 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening for the whole route. Cost is fixed per route, and is often cheaper than travel by car.

Last we have the taxi industry, where you literally put up a hand and one will stop for you. Irrespective of where you are, I have seen them stop in the middle of the freeway in the fast lane to pick up passengers or drop them off. In town I just walk out the door, step to the end of the pavement and put up a hand with index finger up, and one will stop within 30 seconds from 6AM till 8PM. Cost is 50c in town from one end to the other.

Disadvantage is they literally stop for everybody, and stop everywhere to pick up or let off. But to save a 30 minute walk through town to get somewhere it is a lot better than driving, and paying $2 for a parking bay or street parking at the destination. Generally takes 10 minutes from one end to the other of the CBD. As well you have a choice of music, loud, louder and 'deaf in 3 minutes'. Combine with drivers that might have some vague idea of stop signs, traffic rules, tread on tyres, lights, indicators or a vehicle that is roadworthy, and you can have some interesting trips.

Then again in 1992 I was going to college, and took a bus there in the morning ( cheap) where I would be the only mlungu on the bus, and where new drivers would ask if I was in the right bus, as it was a "Green Mamba" and not a "Blue line" bus, though in 1994 they all became Aquamarine, then recently non functional. Way back home was on the private buses, or the first Green line that came, though I avoided the one bus, where I could hear it coming 1km away, as I figured a bus with a sound system that took up the back 3 rows, and all the overhead compartments, would be bad for continued hearing.
 

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2015, 09:09:32 am »
So, I read news today, and it turns out Solaroad have some preliminary results after 6 months testing.

http://www.noord-holland.nl/web/Actueel/Nieuws/Artikel/Zonnefietspad-SolaRoad-levert-meer-energie-dan-verwacht.htm
(Dutch article)

The first half year (winter time in Holland; they started in November) the road produced 3000kWh. They claim an annual figure 70kWh/sq m/year or 192Wh/sq m/day. This is in the "upper range" of their prediction and thus called a success. They aim for more cycle paths in the Netherlands.

As seen by the graph in the article, we went through winter time from November to February or so. Since then we have had some more sun and sun-hours. Unfortunately last winter wasn't particularly harsh; we had barely any snow or freezing cold around my area.

Looking back at Dave's video, he estimated an absolute best-case annual production of 380Wh/sq m/day, which is about double what they got. I am not sure if they corrected the 70kWh/sq m/year figure for annual solar power trends (I think they did), and also how they exactly evaluated systems costs.

edit: April 2015 one of the sunniest April ever (240hr sun vs 178hr sun normal)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 09:25:09 am by hans »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2015, 09:56:16 am »
Hmm, not sure if it's a google translate thing but it says that:

Quote
Eén van de doelen van de praktijkproef is het opsporen en genezen van kinderziektes

means:

Quote
One of the goals of the trial is to detect and cure of childhood diseases.

I don't know what they mean by that at all, are they saying the coating of the road might produce childhood diseases and they are working on making it safer?

Or is the translation accurate and they expect the solaroad to indeed detect and cure childhood diseases?
 :-//

 

Online hans

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2015, 10:11:05 am »
It is literally translated from a metaphor.

We often talk "kinderziektes" about when some cutting edge technology/product comes out with lots of bugs and abnormalities that need to be squashed out. Just like a child will get many colds to build up an immune system.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2015, 10:38:38 am »
Thanks, so it should be:

One of the goals of the trial is to detect and fix problems.

Now that makes more sense :)
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2015, 03:36:09 am »
We call it "infant mortality": see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
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Offline Prime73

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2015, 06:43:50 pm »
Just read an update on this: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/05/150510092535171.html
tl;dr version:
In the first six months since it was installed, the panels beneath the road have generated over 3,000kwh. This is enough to provide a single-person household with electricity for a year.

Whose math is wrong? I trust Dave's judgement on the subject, however I don't think they can simply bs people with the above statements?
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2015, 11:41:35 pm »
Whose math is wrong?
If you do the math, 3000kWh/half-year is 16kWh/day or 685W/h. If there are six hours of usable daylight per day, that's 2.74kW average output.

Since they said the installation was a 70m long stretch of cycling track, we are talking about at least 70 square meters worth or panels, which means an average production under 10W/sqm, 40W if you only consider peak production hours. That's pretty much the same ballpark as Dave's conclusion.

6000kWh at $0.20/kWh is $1200/year. How much did that 70m long stretch of track cost to manufacture, install and maintain through those six months? How many years will it take to pay for itself, assuming it ever does?

Does Solar Roadways work? Well enough as a proof-of-concept thing. Is it cost-effective? No, and unlikely to ever be.
 

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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2015, 05:34:27 pm »
It does an excellent job:
http://www.sciencealert.com/solar-roads-in-the-netherlands-are-working-even-better-than-expected

Hopefully they can lower the cost of 3 million Euros to power a house for half a year, seems a bit excessive to me :)
 

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Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #172 on: November 14, 2015, 05:24:38 pm »
New Solar Road video (270 views as I watched it) from Colas Group.


Its an EU (french) road construction company.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 05:27:16 pm by cybermaus »
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #173 on: November 14, 2015, 06:41:29 pm »
We call it "infant mortality": see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve

Or in the brand of English I grew up with "the teething pains of a new technology."
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: EEVblog #681 - More Solar Roadways BULLSHIT!
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2015, 01:26:57 am »
At least their video production value is a little higher than...
Solar FRIKKIN Roadways...
 


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