Author Topic: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems  (Read 409966 times)

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Offline (In)Sanity

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #525 on: November 28, 2014, 01:17:48 am »
I started another thread in the Test Equipment forum.  In summary, my advice is:

Do not install the beta firmware!

It can cause your keyboard to stop working or act as if keys are being pressed randomly.

Sure glad this isn't a power supply  ???
 

Offline poida_pie

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #526 on: November 28, 2014, 01:35:03 am »
Does anybody have access to the orginal firmware for the DS1054Z, that is,
the version prior to the beta?

I would like to try to use this to fix the keyboard/knob zero response problem if possible.
 

Offline jkrichards

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #527 on: November 28, 2014, 02:20:04 am »
Does anybody have access to the orginal firmware for the DS1054Z, that is,
the version prior to the beta?

I would like to try to use this to fix the keyboard/knob zero response problem if possible.

This is why I asked this question to Chris @ Rigol right after the beta firmware post.  I would not install any beta software unless we could go back to the working firmware.  Hopefully they will have this fixed soon as they promised but until then I think the original latest working firmware should be posted for download so the ones who tested can get back to where they were.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 03:57:32 am by jkrichards »
 

Offline Nonorthogonal

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #528 on: November 28, 2014, 02:47:13 am »
I started another thread in the Test Equipment forum.  In summary, my advice is:

Do not install the beta firmware!

It can cause your keyboard to stop working or act as if keys are being pressed randomly.

My keys do that occasionally, but it isn't random for me. It just waits a minute or two and then the presses that were queued up are executed at once.

I'm curious what their fix was. This seems like a bug in the GUI or Linux side (this thing runs Linux right??) and unrelated to the 5 us bug.

I wouldn't say don't install it, just be "patient" with your knob twists. The scope is off getting a cup of coffee.
 

Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #529 on: November 28, 2014, 03:38:21 am »
I started another thread in the Test Equipment forum.  In summary, my advice is:

Do not install the beta firmware!

It can cause your keyboard to stop working or act as if keys are being pressed randomly.

My keys do that occasionally, but it isn't random for me. It just waits a minute or two and then the presses that were queued up are executed at once.

I'm curious what their fix was. This seems like a bug in the GUI or Linux side (this thing runs Linux right??) and unrelated to the 5 us bug.

I wouldn't say don't install it, just be "patient" with your knob twists. The scope is off getting a cup of coffee.


No.  That is not the effect I'm seeing.  It's not queueing keys, it's acting as if keys that have not been pressed are being pressed.  For example, all the measurement functions on the left light,  help screens display and all I did was press the Clear key once.

 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #530 on: November 28, 2014, 09:22:01 am »
I started another thread in the Test Equipment forum.  In summary, my advice is:

Do not install the beta firmware!

It can cause your keyboard to stop working or act as if keys are being pressed randomly.

My keys do that occasionally, but it isn't random for me. It just waits a minute or two and then the presses that were queued up are executed at once.

I'm curious what their fix was. This seems like a bug in the GUI or Linux side (this thing runs Linux right??) and unrelated to the 5 us bug.

I wouldn't say don't install it, just be "patient" with your knob twists. The scope is off getting a cup of coffee.

Nope, this is right after switching on, the option splash screen comes up and usually I press Clear at this point to remove the splash screen. No keys work at all. If you wait for the option splash screen to disappear, still the same, no response from any keys. I set the scope to reset back to "default" settings rather than "last" too in case that was the problem, but it made no difference.

Even after going away for an exceptionally long coffee, lunch, dinner, a long holiday, still no response, it needs a power cycle to resolve.

Edit to add: the unit itself is not locked up, there is stuff going on on the screen itself.
 

Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #531 on: November 28, 2014, 06:59:16 pm »
Does anybody have access to the orginal firmware for the DS1054Z, that is,
the version prior to the beta?

I would like to try to use this to fix the keyboard/knob zero response problem if possible.

This is why I asked this question to Chris @ Rigol right after the beta firmware post.  I would not install any beta software unless we could go back to the working firmware.  Hopefully they will have this fixed soon as they promised but until then I think the original latest working firmware should be posted for download so the ones who tested can get back to where they were.


I agree that they should provide working firmware that we can go back to.  All they need to do is take the shipping firmware and change the version number such that the scope will accept it.

At the point that I installed it, there hadn't been any reports of problems on 'unmodified' scopes.  I should have waited longer.

The keypad problem is exactly the soft of problem that a beta test is meant to find.  I can't fault Rigol for making it available.  I would have thought they would have found the keyboard problems before releasing the beta FW given the number of reports here, but I would doubt that their R&D dept.  are using current off the production line units and it may be related to a particular batch.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 07:01:18 pm by orin »
 

Offline i4004

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #532 on: November 28, 2014, 08:47:50 pm »
I think they should open all or most of the firmware and let the community fix it and improve it, they would sell many more units and mostly get rid of software support, supporting only an official simple version which noone would use anyway. I would pay more for such an "open" unit.

rather good idea, and esp. knowing that less (if any) of that code could be copyrighted by somebody else other than rigol....
 :-+

otoh i'm not sure if community already concluded it's a hardware problem...hehe...but it kinda looked that way...so the report by leppie that the offset just changed (and is not removed) is kinda interesting.

i'm still incredibly far away from applying this beta....i would be a (best) beta  tester (ever!) if somebody would pay me...and buy me a scope to test it on!  ;D
 

Offline sawmilkd

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #533 on: November 28, 2014, 10:38:23 pm »
Here is my summary of what I'm seeing w/ the beta firmware on a DS1054Z (unlocked). This post provides some clarity regarding some of my previous observations, as well as what I've seen in other posts.

#1: Start-up issue. This does seem random. Yesterday I thought it alternated, but now it seems to be random. It also does not matter if the USB stick w/ the firmware update is installed or not at power up. I have had the panel freeze in both cases. On a power up where the panel freezes, the scope continues to operate based upon its current settings. If I disconnect the probe, the trace disappears on the display, and the trigger stops (in normal mode). When I reconnect the probe, triggering continues, and the trace appears on the display. This indicates that the scope is not "locked up" per se, but it no longer responds to panel input.

#2: Perceived random button press issue. This is a variant of #1. I have seen this as well. As soon as I adjust anything on the scope after power up, it acts as though I am pressing buttons randomly in rapid succession. My scope usually ends up on the help display, and then no longer responds to input. Power cycling resolves the issue.

#3: Trigger offset jitter issue (5us/10us, or 33us, etc). The firmware patch, at least for my hardware version 0.1.1, seems to fix the offset jitter entirely. I have tried to varying the trigger offset from 0,5,10,20,33, and 50us, and I see no trigger jitter. Others claim their scope jitter now appears at something other than the previously observed 5us. I cannot recreate this.  I've attached my screenshots for these cases.

In short, this firmware update fixes all of the tigger issues from my perspective (AC trigger, AC/DC trigger offset). However, it brings with it a new issue of the front panel not responding.  It is worth mentioning that I have not experience a time where the scope was working and then locks up. It is either one or the other upon power up.

Attached are my screen shots testing the trigger offset jitter at various delay offsets, tested with a 20MHz can oscillator, 1X scope probe (Rigol) calibrated.





 

Offline jkrichards

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #534 on: November 28, 2014, 11:26:51 pm »
sawmilkd,
Does yours self calibrate ?
 

Offline sawmilkd

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #535 on: November 29, 2014, 12:36:08 am »
sawmilkd,
Does yours self calibrate ?
I started one after reading your post. It just completed successfully.
 

Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #536 on: November 29, 2014, 12:53:53 am »
sawmilkd,
Does yours self calibrate ?
I started one after reading your post. It just completed successfully.


Mine did too.  Didn't help with the keyboard problems, not that I expected it to.
 

Offline i4004

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #537 on: November 29, 2014, 07:51:57 am »


#2: Perceived random button press issue. This is a variant of #1. I have seen this as well. As soon as I adjust anything on the scope after power up, it acts as though I am pressing buttons randomly in rapid succession. My scope usually ends up on the help display, and then no longer responds to input. Power cycling resolves the issue.



first of all i dunno why do you all call it "unlocked" when there should be a legal way to unlock it (by paying to rigol, was that the idea behind those locked options?) while infact it's hacked.
so call it hacked.

2nd, just yesterday i got what you explain in point2 above, but not that extreme....i turned it on, and "it" pressed 'REF' button (sure as hell i'm not pressing it) and the help screen appeared....then i hit 'help' few times and it continued to operate, i didn't do reboot.

this is just hacked 1054z, this beta firmware you're discussing was not applied.
and it will not be applied unless benefits outweigh disadvantages.
ie no lockups and it needs to have 100mhz BW.

damn, by buying it i payed for 100mhz scope!  :-DD
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 07:55:46 am by i4004 »
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #538 on: November 29, 2014, 08:45:38 am »
So the "fix" worked for some, did not work for others and made it worse for the rest of people.

Seems the possible hardware issue may not be off the table yet. I have my guess why this fix did not work but I need MarkL to please do couple tests for me next week when he returns from holidays.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline jkrichards

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #539 on: November 29, 2014, 01:20:27 pm »
So the "fix" worked for some, did not work for others and made it worse for the rest of people.

Seems the possible hardware issue may not be off the table yet. I have my guess why this fix did not work but I need MarkL to please do couple tests for me next week when he returns from holidays.

Actually I think it worked for most with a flawed keyboard.  I think two did not fix or moved the 5us jitter issue.  I did not even try it as they have not posted the current working firmware for restoring back.  I make it a habit of not ever updating anything unless it is possible to go back or guaranteed to be a positive upgrade.
 

Offline poida_pie

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #540 on: November 29, 2014, 08:24:21 pm »
So the "fix" worked for some, did not work for others and made it worse for the rest of people.

Seems the possible hardware issue may not be off the table yet. I have my guess why this fix did not work but I need MarkL to please do couple tests for me next week when he returns from holidays.

Actually I think it worked for most with a flawed keyboard.  I think two did not fix or moved the 5us jitter issue.  I did not even try it as they have not posted the current working firmware for restoring back.  I make it a habit of not ever updating anything unless it is possible to go back or guaranteed to be a positive upgrade.

In my case the beta firmware made the "5us" jitter much worse. Oh, and the keyboard lockup as well.
right now, the DSO is unusable thanks to the increased jitter.
Additionally the counter function is now in error, showing something like "19.7 MHz" for a 20 MHz signal.
The function gen is good and accurate to 4 figures, my rigol DS2072 shows it is 20.00MHz but the DS1054Z
now has large error in the counter.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 08:27:09 pm by poida_pie »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #541 on: November 29, 2014, 08:41:01 pm »
right now, the DSO is unusable thanks to the increased jitter.
You can just downgrade to FW v.04.01.02.00 - available here.
 

Offline jkrichards

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #542 on: November 29, 2014, 09:12:32 pm »
right now, the DSO is unusable thanks to the increased jitter.
You can just downgrade to FW v.04.01.02.00 - available here.

Has anyone tried downgrading?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #543 on: November 29, 2014, 09:23:59 pm »
Has anyone tried downgrading?

Do you mean specifically from this beta version - or the thousands of times people have been up and downgrading on the Rigol UltraVision scopes in general?
 

Offline jkrichards

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #544 on: November 29, 2014, 09:31:00 pm »
Has anyone tried downgrading?

Do you mean specifically from this beta version - or the thousands of times people have been up and downgrading on the Rigol UltraVision scopes in general?
This beta.... 
 

Offline motocoder

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #545 on: November 29, 2014, 10:56:16 pm »
Hi All -

I just got my scope (DS2072) back from Rigol and it has a new firmware: 00.03.02.SP3. I see posts here about a beta firmware for the 1xxx series scopes, but not the 2xxx series. So I am not sure if this firmware is a beta version or not, but it does seem to have addressed the AC triggering jitter.

The attached screenshot shows a 2V P-P 25MHz square wave from my function generator. The scope is set up with AC trigger coupling (but DC channel coupling) with the trigger level set to 0V. No jitter.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 11:25:02 pm by motocoder »
 

Offline motocoder

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #546 on: November 29, 2014, 11:41:49 pm »
I just got my scope (DS2072) back from Rigol and it has a new firmware: 00.03.02.SP3
Well that sure looks like 2 bugs are fixed on a DS2000
you just Beta Tested for Rigol!   :-+
Are there any problems with Buttons?, Startup??

Can you look at the full FW version number (F7-F6-F7-Util) , format  '00.03.??.??.??'

Pix of my DS2072 today

Well, you've seen my other thread, so you know I've been doing a lot of testing for them lately :)

Software version: 00.03.02.03.00
Hardware version: 1.0.2.0.2
FPGA Version:
  SPU: 04.01.02
  WPU: 01.01.03
  CCU: 12.29.00
  MCU: 00.05
« Last Edit: November 29, 2014, 11:50:53 pm by motocoder »
 

Offline motocoder

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #547 on: November 30, 2014, 12:13:48 am »
Full FW version number is: 00.03.02.03.00
HW version: 1.0.2.0.2
I'm Envious,  why did you get the Beta Verson first.    ;D

I guess I am just lucky. No start-up issues or keyboard lock-ups either. I suspect they had some "work in progress" on the 1xxx series firmware, and so the people who got the jitter fix also got a bunch of untested or partially tested changes along with it.

In any event, it's good news for all of us that the problem is fixable via firmware. I am sure an official release can't be far away.
 

Online JDubU

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #548 on: November 30, 2014, 12:25:25 am »
Well, you've seen my other thread, so you know I've been doing a lot of testing for them lately :)

Software version: 00.03.02.03.00
Hardware version: 1.0.2.0.2
FPGA Version:
  SPU: 04.01.02
  WPU: 01.01.03
  CCU: 12.29.00
  MCU: 00.05

Did the new firmware fix the jitter that occurs on the trigger output connector as well?
 

Offline poida_pie

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #549 on: November 30, 2014, 12:31:52 am »
right now, the DSO is unusable thanks to the increased jitter.
You can just downgrade to FW v.04.01.02.00 - available here.

Has anyone tried downgrading?

I just tried now. Using the same thumb drive that successfully updated from OEM firmware (..SP3) to beta
I placed the v.04.01.02.00 firmware, renamed to DS1000ZUpdate.GEL in the thumb drive.
It is recognised as  an older version and offers to load it.
AND IT FAILS with a message "Update was failured!"
Here's hoping I have not bricked it.
By the way, is there a bootloader in the DS1054Z similar to the DS2072?

So I replaced the v.04.01.02.00 file with the beta, the one and only firmware that is available
for the DS1054Z that seems to load and the message is "Congratulations!" etc. time to reboot so enjoy the results.
First reboot, keypad and knobs locked.
Next boot, it responds as normal.
firmware v.00.04.SP3.

Let's see if the jitter remains...what do you all think?
The counter shows 19.7145 MHz from my 20.00 MHz fun gen output.
Not looking good, and yes the nearly 40 us jitter at 5us delay is still there.
At 15 us it's 75us of jitter.
I'd take a picture of this but it's too depressing to look at.
But the AC coupled trigger jitter is gone.



 

« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 12:40:05 am by poida_pie »
 


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