Author Topic: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems  (Read 412873 times)

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Offline RigolTechUSA

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #575 on: December 02, 2014, 10:33:07 pm »
Thanks for all the help checking the beta. The engineers are reviewing those issues. I personally upgraded 7 or 8 units across the line and didn't see any of the keyboard, boot. or trigger issues some have reported, but engineers are looking at it. I'm going to take down the beta in a few minutes as I think we have enough feedback and some things to work on. As far as I can tell all of these issues are still firmware and not hardware and should be fixed by the scheduled release upcoming. Will let you know when that is ready. Folks should also be aware that if they are updating hacked units we can't guarantee how an update will shake out on your instrument. We don't do any regression or compatibility testing on units that have been hacked. Just keep in mind that that isn't a test case we consider when releasing firmware. If you have questions or concerns please drop me a line directly. chris_armstrong@rigol.com

regards,

Chris
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #576 on: December 02, 2014, 10:50:45 pm »
Regarding the keyboard issue, it is repeatable in that every time I switch the scope on after it's been off for a period of time, it will show the fault. To correct it, I simply switch if off and back on a second or two later after it had fully booted.

Board version is 6.1.1 by the way, Scope is MSO1074Z-S.

Not that this helps much, I can't ever remember using AC triggering before this to be honest though!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 10:54:06 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #577 on: December 02, 2014, 11:04:33 pm »
Thanks for all the help checking the beta. The engineers are reviewing those issues. I personally upgraded 7 or 8 units across the line and didn't see any of the keyboard, boot. or trigger issues some have reported, but engineers are looking at it. I'm going to take down the beta in a few minutes as I think we have enough feedback and some things to work on. As far as I can tell all of these issues are still firmware and not hardware and should be fixed by the scheduled release upcoming. Will let you know when that is ready. Folks should also be aware that if they are updating hacked units we can't guarantee how an update will shake out on your instrument. We don't do any regression or compatibility testing on units that have been hacked. Just keep in mind that that isn't a test case we consider when releasing firmware. If you have questions or concerns please drop me a line directly. chris_armstrong@rigol.com

regards,

Chris


Well, as I noted before, my DS1054Z is essentially straight out of the box - not hacked and still has 20 hours on the trial options - and it has both keyboard problems after installing the beta.  It's also in the Seattle area so it could be with you to take a look at within a day...
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #578 on: December 02, 2014, 11:45:46 pm »
Found another error in programming of the PLL registers in beta. Has to do with setting the VCO startup frequency. I have updated my post #576 - see details there.
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Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #579 on: December 03, 2014, 12:00:24 am »
Well, as I noted before, my DS1054Z is essentially straight out of the box - not hacked and still has 20 hours on the trial options - and it has both keyboard problems after installing the beta.  It's also in the Seattle area so it could be with you to take a look at within a day...
As you are close why are you not bashing on their door ?  :box:
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #580 on: December 03, 2014, 12:17:31 am »
Here is information for Rigol

- see if you guys want to ask yourself why 15mA Core Power Level was used for 4360-7. In case no one knows the answer , you should change it to 5mA per the IC manufacturer recommendation and retest/redesign/resimulate the loop filter.

Holy sh!t, this never ends... In beta the Core Power was changed to 20mA, which may have severed the problem.

OK Let me throw in some quotes from ADI forum, may be then you guys reconsider.

'====
... changing the core power would have changed the VCO sensitivity, leading to a (possibly) more stable loop filter. But in many cases it may lead to more instability (and now the simulator data is invalid also).

...Using a non-specified VCO core power current changes the VCO vs. frequency characteristic completely

...In particular check the core power, it is critical that this be set to 5 mA

...Only the specified VCO core power current should be used for the ADF4360-x family

...all measurements in characterization, yield analysis and production test are based on 5 mA. Using a different VCO setting will indeed change the VCO characteristics, to characteristics that are largely unknown, except in a few limited cases. If changing the core power 'solved' the problem, my guess is that it simply masked it.

'====

I like the last one.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 12:19:04 am by Bud »
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Offline orin

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #581 on: December 03, 2014, 12:18:38 am »
Well, as I noted before, my DS1054Z is essentially straight out of the box - not hacked and still has 20 hours on the trial options - and it has both keyboard problems after installing the beta.  It's also in the Seattle area so it could be with you to take a look at within a day...
As you are close why are you not bashing on their door ?  :box:


Not that close... about 200 miles.  Usually one day by UPS ground.
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #582 on: December 03, 2014, 01:30:51 am »
OK I found a spare 4360 PLL proto PCB, will order parts and build later this week.
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Offline MarkL

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #583 on: December 03, 2014, 02:30:55 am »
OK I found a spare 4360 PLL proto PCB, will order parts and build later this week.

Sounds like fun!


Has anyone tried the JTAG port on the DS1054Z iMX283 yet?  If so, have you gotten far enough that it could be used to write some bytes to one of the SPI controllers?

Or, how about console or telnet access?  This thing runs Linux, right?  We could use devmem to write some SPI bytes.

It would be interesting to try some different values in the PLL registers without having to chop apart the hardware.
 

Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #584 on: December 03, 2014, 03:13:57 am »
Not me...
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Offline RigolTechUSA

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #585 on: December 03, 2014, 05:53:56 pm »
Rigol has created updated firmware for the MSO1000Z and DS1000Z series of scopes in immediate response to the issues found by Dave and the EEVBlog community.

[...]

Lastly, if anyone has questions or concerns they want to discuss with us, we are always here. Contact your local Rigol office or distribution partner. Our USA number is 877-4-RIGOL-1. Every DS1000Z bought in the USA is under our 3 year warranty program and Rigol quality is important to us all over the world.

Thanks,

Chris Armstrong
Director of Product Marketing & SW Applications
Rigol Technologies
10200 SW Allen Blvd.  Suite C
Beaverton, OR 97005
office/fax: 877-4-RIGOL-1

Chris, it's time for an update from Rigol.  Quickly putting out a beta for everyone to test was appreciated, but dropping it on us like a bomb and then not participating in the ensuing discussion has not left anyone with a positive impression, to put it mildly.

There's clearly still a problem in the PLL lock.  For some people it's hidden well enough to make the scope usable, but for others it appears to destabilize the PLL even more.  This is the root cause of the jitter issue.

Plus, we now have keypad lockups and no path to re-install the released software if a user chooses to do so.

If Rigol is "always here" and "quality is important", please let us know the plan in light of the latest revelations.

Mark, appreciate your comments. Trying to keep as up to date with the threads as possible over a long holiday weekend here in the States. As I posted yesterday, we have gathered that feedback and engineering is looking at it. We still expect to make a final FW release to fix this problem. While none of the units I tested here or any of the units in engineering that were alpha tested showed the keyboard or jitter issues on the beta we are continuing to improve its performance for everyone. I am borrowing an instrument showing keyboard issues from a EEVBlogger and hopefully that will help us confirm the next update. I will keep everyone posted as we get closer. Still expecting a final release that works for all of you on our original schedule.
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #586 on: December 03, 2014, 06:08:08 pm »
I will keep everyone posted as we get closer. Still expecting a final release that works for all of you on our original schedule.

Any chance to provide the original non-beta firmware? After all, it seems that the beta made things worse for some folks, so it would be good if they could go back to the original version, without going to the ridiculous process of each person having to individually contact Rigol to get a firmware. Which, btw., you folks should really stop. Simply provide the firmwares for easy download on your site and be done with it. It's called customer service ;)

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline RigolTechUSA

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #587 on: December 03, 2014, 09:56:30 pm »
I will keep everyone posted as we get closer. Still expecting a final release that works for all of you on our original schedule.

Any chance to provide the original non-beta firmware? After all, it seems that the beta made things worse for some folks, so it would be good if they could go back to the original version, without going to the ridiculous process of each person having to individually contact Rigol to get a firmware. Which, btw., you folks should really stop. Simply provide the firmwares for easy download on your site and be done with it. It's called customer service ;)

Greetings,

Chris

Hello, I am sorry that you had trouble with the beta. I double checked here, but the firmware doesn't enable downgrading. We have limited that to avoid compatibility issues with the latest hardware and earlier firmware versions. In fact, that is tied to the same reason we ask for serial numbers before we share firmware for upgrading. It allows us to verify compatibility and make sure there will not be issues. As our firmware gets more sophisticated in verifying versions we can hopefully make that more easily available. I believe released firmware should be available for anyone who will be helped by it, but should not be offered if there is no meaningful benefit to the user as there is always an inherent risk in any update procedure from power outages or memory stick issues. As I said in the beta release note we will need to wait until a new version is released to get you back to full operation. For anyone who loaded the beta and had issues, please email me your model and serial number and I will make sure you get a updated version as soon as possible directly. We don't have another version yet addressing the keyboard issues but as soon as we do I will let everyone know.
 

Offline (In)Sanity

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #588 on: December 03, 2014, 11:10:52 pm »
Wow,   as a 25+ year coder I have to say that was pretty piss pore planing.   The firmware should have some way to ID the characteristics of the device and just not allow it to flash incompatible versions.   At the very least this should have been released as some sub version that would still allow downgrades.   As in you can only downgrade to the major version number,   4.xx.xx  and not 3.xx.xx.

Here,  please test our beta software...ohhh it doesn't work...so sorry.   Rigol should release the current version with a slight sub version change so people with messed up scopes can upgrade back to the current release version.    Distribute it privately and it won't be a big issue.

Jeff
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #589 on: December 03, 2014, 11:16:14 pm »
Hello, I am sorry that you had trouble with the beta. I double checked here, but the firmware doesn't enable downgrading.
For a BETA  :o
This seems a terrible mistake.
Sure a warning was given to use at your own risk, but to introduce further problems and not have a way to reverse to the previous FW seems like asking for trouble.  :palm:

Quote
I believe released firmware should be available for anyone who will be helped by it, but should not be offered if there is no meaningful benefit to the user as there is always an inherent risk in any update procedure from power outages or memory stick issues.
This statement might be fine for a public release, but you are addressing the foremost electronic forum in the world....most members are not idiots.  |O

Firmware upgrade of ANY device has a risk as you have described, in reality the of lack of widespread problems indicates conflicting statistics.

There are many many comments throughout this forum re the availability of your FW to the point that some have moved away from Rigol's products.
i believe many would support a policy change in this matter.

We all realise that occasionally a new product or a FW update might not go as intended, it is up to the manufacturer to address issues in a prompt and timely manner, nothing more, nothing less.


I wish for these comments to be seen as coming from a Test Equipment owner and are in no way intended to incite a slanging match.
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Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #590 on: December 03, 2014, 11:21:18 pm »
Surely you can press help immediately right after power up to do a force firmware update if you have the previous version firmware on a USB stick, right?

Or is the DS1000 boot sequence different than the DS2000 series?
 

Online alank2

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #591 on: December 03, 2014, 11:25:41 pm »
For a long time people have been able to flash different firmware versions, forward and backward...
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #592 on: December 03, 2014, 11:40:23 pm »
Can't ID the hardware?

What about, 18:36 of Dave's teardown video?

 

Online 0xdeadbeef

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #593 on: December 03, 2014, 11:51:26 pm »
I believe released firmware should be available for anyone who will be helped by it, but should not be offered if there is no meaningful benefit to the user as there is always an inherent risk in any update procedure from power outages or memory stick issues.
This is a terrible and inexcusable attitude that stops me from buying Rigol products (again). Indeed, I bought a used DG2021A once which had a firmware bug related to NI-VISA via serial and the support denied that there was a fix for this. Finally, I got the update from a kind soul who had the luck to reach a more competent and helpful support person.
Generally, companies who refuse public firmware upgrades and a publicly available release history should be avoided.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #594 on: December 04, 2014, 12:08:32 am »
I wish for these comments to be seen as coming from a Test Equipment owner and are in no way intended to incite a slanging match.

I know it's in your signature, but just to make it clear to people, this comment also comes from a distributor of Siglent gear.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #595 on: December 04, 2014, 12:45:09 am »
I wish for these comments to be seen as coming from a Test Equipment owner and are in no way intended to incite a slanging match.
I know it's in your signature, but just to make it clear to people, this comment also comes from a distributor of Siglent gear.
I think anybody that can read will see that.

Did I say anyting outrageous/offensive?

As your moderator asked me to declare my position re Siglent and I complied with his (read "your") wishes so now I can't make bonafide comments in the forum without somebody pointing the finger.  :wtf:

I now have to live with that ruling and its now plainly apparent implications.



« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 12:48:42 am by tautech »
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Offline aargee

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #596 on: December 04, 2014, 01:32:05 am »
I think Rigol's response so far to the problem has been above average in comparison to a lot of other companies both in and outside of test gear.
Not everyone who reads or participates in this forum could be said to be experts, even if it is one or the foremost forum of its type. I understand the cautious nature of Rigols responses here and their roll out of beta software that may or may not fix problems and/or introduce new issues.

Personally, I try not to jump at freshly released software, especially if I'm no expert (- which I am some of the time  ;)  ). I checked to see if there was a roll back option, which there didn't appear to be, and left the beta alone.

I agree with Dave and the moderators that it is a poor look when distributors of competitive gear get on and start ranting and raving about the opposition and their perceived (or not) actions to fix problems in their gear. Whether or not you are acting from an independent standpoint in your head is beside the point when your sig says otherwise.

Rigol could have just left the forum alone but have chosen to take an active part in communicating, which on balance is commendable.
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Offline (In)Sanity

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #597 on: December 04, 2014, 01:43:48 am »
None of this will stop me from buying more Rigol gear unless they become hostile toward their customers over issues.    So far they are acting much more professional then most of us,  myself included.   Then again we're not in their shoes and can afford to bitch and whine.

Jeff
 

Offline tautech

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #598 on: December 04, 2014, 02:16:58 am »
Whether or not you are acting from an independent standpoint in your head is beside the point when your sig says otherwise.
Granted, gave that some thought and exactly why I added a footer.
I don't normally.

FYI any signature I use will instantly apply to ALL my existing posts so I have to live with this signature like a flag on my forehead.

Would you all be happier if my signature was "NZ Test Equipment Supplier"?
Is that sufficent disclosure?

Should all this discourage me from making valid comment/posts, in this thread or any other?
Just try and hold me back.  >:D
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Online Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #599 on: December 04, 2014, 03:41:19 am »
None of this will stop me from buying more Rigol gear unless they become hostile toward their customers over issues.   

Well, did not they produced a nice letter saying they did a test and found no issues. It was all in user's heads, before we pointed out to the PLL problem.
Aren't we having a deja vu now, this time with them having tested the beta which was also successful as they say. It is again all in the heads of those who claims they have their scopes locking up and/or the issue not fixed.

Cant wait for MarkL to hook up his SA to the "final firmware-d" scope. I think I have earned some credibility here to say these guys have no idea what they are doing to the PLL. It was not a proper fix, it was a desperate attempt to patch the hole by any means, whatever seemed to work.


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