Author Topic: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems  (Read 427220 times)

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Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #975 on: January 07, 2015, 06:49:21 pm »
Hello-

Just got a message from my very friendly vendor (have my scope 1054z for roughly 3 weeks and asked immediately what about warranty vs jitter issue) that there is an update for download available BUT if the update for some reason fails it is NOT COVERED- I.e. repair will have to be paid!!  :wtf:

So what kind of service is THAT? I am willing to fix the issue with their firmware (saving them a lot of shipping costs) and will have to pay the repair if it fails?

Anyways- what you get for the money scope wise is awesome and should not be forgotten!

Do you mind stating the vendors name?
 

Offline nuno

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #976 on: January 07, 2015, 07:15:58 pm »
Just got a message from my very friendly vendor (have my scope 1054z for roughly 3 weeks and asked immediately what about warranty vs jitter issue) that there is an update for download available BUT if the update for some reason fails it is NOT COVERED- I.e. repair will have to be paid!!  :wtf:

So what kind of service is THAT? I am willing to fix the issue with their firmware (saving them a lot of shipping costs) and will have to pay the repair if it fails?

Return it has defective. Wait some time for the new scopes to come with the new firmware, then buy it again.
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #977 on: January 07, 2015, 08:20:27 pm »
Just got a message from my very friendly vendor (have my scope 1054z for roughly 3 weeks and asked immediately what about warranty vs jitter issue) that there is an update for download available BUT if the update for some reason fails it is NOT COVERED- I.e. repair will have to be paid!!  :wtf:
Unless there is something wrong with the scope's hardware though, the only way to completely brick the scope would be to have a failure while updating the bootloader. Since you should not need to touch the bootloader for a normal update in the first place, the chances of ending up in a completely bricked state are quite low.

If you really do not want to take that chance and cannot convince your vendor to see it the "saving shipping" way, then I would go with nuno's suggestion: tell the vendor you want to return it as defective if he refuses to authorize the firmware update. If he accepts, he may yet spare himself shipping. If he refuses, he's stuck having to deal with the return/exchange/refund.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #978 on: January 07, 2015, 11:17:33 pm »
Good point about the unit being defective. If Rigol has a Warranty statement on manufacturing defects, the whole fleet of pre-updated scopes should qualify for an exchange, since they came out of the factory with this defect.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #979 on: January 08, 2015, 02:06:04 am »
I would not confuse the vendor's opinion vs the actual warranty from Rigol.

I can see their point if you brick the scope doing the update since its not a critical update and if you mess it up the vendor doesn't want to be out of the extra labor.

But you can deal with Rigol directly if there is some defect.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #980 on: January 08, 2015, 02:35:35 am »
I would not confuse the vendor's opinion vs the actual warranty from Rigol.

I can see their point if you brick the scope doing the update since its not a critical update and if you mess it up the vendor doesn't want to be out of the extra labor.

But you can deal with Rigol directly if there is some defect.

Yup, check in with Rigol and don't forget to let them know the vendors name. Maybe they can help guide him, or kick in in the butt.
 

Offline morphis

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #981 on: January 08, 2015, 05:41:38 am »
Thanks again to all the engineers, beta testers, customers, community members, and worldwide Rigol team members who have contributed to the discussion, validation, and solutions over the last month for the MSO/DS1000Z and MSO/DS2000A FW updates that we are now ready to release. It has been a great example of working together to make instruments even better. Thanks also for your patience as we worked through the proper process for evaluating, updating, and testing solutions that work for all of our customers. You can now find the firmware updates here:

MSO/DS1000Z Firmware

 MSO/DS2000A Firmware

Feel free to update at your convenience and let your local Rigol office know if you have any questions, issues, or problems. Happy New Year!
I just applied the firmware update to my MSO1104Z-S.
It has fixed both the 5us offset and AC trigger coupling problem.  8)
 

Offline DanielS

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #982 on: January 08, 2015, 02:46:53 pm »
If you kick the power cord out in the middle of the update or interupt it then you have to take some responsibility for that.
To be fair though, as long as you do not brick the bootloader which usually does not require updating in the first place, you can unbrick the main firmware from it, so no big deal there.

For the bootloader update itself, it is probably small enough that updating it is quicker than power can go out assuming Rigol checks that PSU output voltages are still nominal before erasing its flash memory page(s) - you can do a lot with a single 64KiB flash memory block when you can use nearly all of it for bare-metal code instead of OS overhead, fancy GUI graphics and text.
 

Offline Loboscope

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #983 on: January 08, 2015, 10:26:46 pm »
I also applied the new firmware to my DS1104-Z, without any problem.
None of the installed options had been touched by the update
It fixed the AC trigger coupling problem completely (anyway my scope was not attached by the 5ยตs-problem) - anything looks perfect now!   :-+
 

Offline smgvbest

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #984 on: January 09, 2015, 05:51:08 am »
Same here
I applied the update to my MSO1074Z-S without any issue's.
I also reran a self-cal after the update and the scope had been on for at least 30min

The AC trigger coupling and the 5us Jitter issue's no longer show and though mine was not as sever as some I've seen I did have it.
Also noticed a little improvement in the VPP reading.  it's small but on the test output I had previously after a self call gotten 3.06VPP @ 1.00001 KHz and after i'm getting 3.04VPP @ 1.00001KHz

Sandra
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Offline QuadFritz

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #985 on: January 09, 2015, 08:45:58 am »
Hello-

my vendor got in contact with Rigol due to my complain and got back to me telling that needed updates (like this one) ARE under warranty!
So the service is really good. Friendly, competent and also getting back to Rigol directly if things are unclear!
So far they get a big plus from me! I bought the scope at Batronix.

Just out of curiosity: did anybody with an "upgraded" ds1054Z install the new FW?
Are all of the options still working? Any other issues?

Greetings from Germay!
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #986 on: January 09, 2015, 08:52:00 am »
All went fine with mine, as other have reported too. No problems with the upgrades.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #987 on: January 09, 2015, 08:52:45 am »
Just out of curiosity: did anybody with an "upgraded" ds1054Z install the new FW?
Are all of the options still working? Any other issues?

The options still work on the new firmware.
 

Offline smgvbest

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #988 on: January 09, 2015, 09:50:27 am »
Did anyone else notice after upgrading the DG,500uV,Power Ana and 100MHz show up as Official.  they weren't listed at before.
Sandra
(Yes, I am a Woman :p )
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #989 on: January 09, 2015, 10:19:44 pm »
A new DS1054Z owner and myself finally got our schedules synced to do some internal measurements on the new firmware, 04.02.SP4.

His particular scope had the 5us jitter pretty bad, about 10ns pk-pk.  After the upgrade, as with everyone else, it was reduced to beyond visible in the time domain.

Before:



After:



After upgrade, a long point FFT against a 100MHz signal showed the same characteristic peaking as everyone else has seen around the main carrier at approx 71kHz and 120kHz (this was a 24MPt sample):



A spectrum analyzer shot of the ADC clock before:



And after:





A plot of min/max hold shows there's quite an amplitude spread, indicating randomness in the clock:



An FM demod of the clock shows no periodicity that I could find, so I don't think it's from a power supply or other external influence.  We will take a look at power pins directly for 71kHz/120kHz ripple, but we ran out of time today.



The SPI bus was probed.  For comparison, here are the bytes from the beta for the AD4360-7 PLL registers:

  02 00 29
  40 31 2C
  00 19 02

Here are the new values:

  22 00 29
  40 31 28
  00 19 02

I decoded the MUXOUT setting and Rigol left it set to "Digital Lock Detect (Active High)".  The MUXOUT pin was probed and except for a brief high pulse of 1.6us on boot when the PLL is programmed, it is at a constant low.  There was no further activity on the SPI bus beyond the initial register programming (total of 9 bytes in 3 transactions).

The PLL "Band Select Clock Divider" (x1 --> x4) and "Core Power Level" (20mA --> 15mA) have been altered from the beta to the new release.

So, there ya go.  PLL is still definitely not locked, but not wildly flapping either.  I don't think we have any examples of it being completely unstable with the new firmware.

We'll try some heating/cooling of the PLL area before we close it back up.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 10:25:34 pm by MarkL »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #990 on: January 09, 2015, 10:56:53 pm »
Did anyone else notice after upgrading the DG,500uV,Power Ana and 100MHz show up as Official.  they weren't listed at before.

I memtioned it here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg566046/#msg566046

Be aware that the 500uV doesn't seem to calibrate out any DC offset so is of questionable use anyway.

I don't know what DG or Power Ana do in practice.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #991 on: January 10, 2015, 12:22:01 am »
Did anyone else notice after upgrading the DG,500uV,Power Ana and 100MHz show up as Official.  they weren't listed at before.

The 1054Z does not have the 500uV front end hardware.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #992 on: January 10, 2015, 12:23:09 am »
So no reports of the the fix NOT working so far?
Is it safe to say Rigol have fixed the issue yet?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #993 on: January 10, 2015, 12:30:03 am »
I'm seeing lots of reports of fixed DS1000 series scopes but not DS2000 series reports.  I have an upgraded DS2072 and have been leery about installing the new firmware.  Any problems out there?
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #994 on: January 10, 2015, 01:48:02 am »
So no reports of the the fix NOT working so far?
Is it safe to say Rigol have fixed the issue yet?

"Fixed" is such a strong word.

I still want to do a little bit of temperature testing, but it appears Rigol has buried the 5us issue deep enough that no one is going to see it for routine use.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #995 on: January 10, 2015, 04:17:25 am »
I'm seeing lots of reports of fixed DS1000 series scopes but not DS2000 series reports.  I have an upgraded DS2072 and have been leery about installing the new firmware.  Any problems out there?

DS2000 fixes the AC trigger coupling, no problem retaining upgrades. Other issues remaining were probably present pre-update. But I updated from an almost year old firmware and on that one I never noticed that it would not lock below 100mV now it doesn't but I'm not sure if it was present before the update. I did test with the previous firmware before the latest one and the trigger lock does the same thing but with the AC trigger coupling problem present.

I guess I could dig out the older (+10 months old) firmware but it's a non event for me.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #996 on: January 10, 2015, 04:47:38 am »
So no reports of the the fix NOT working so far?
Is it safe to say Rigol have fixed the issue yet?

"Fixed" is such a strong word.

I still want to do a little bit of temperature testing, but it appears Rigol has buried the 5us issue deep enough that no one is going to see it for routine use.
Are you trying to NOT say it is fixed?

I think it's more of a due diligence statement.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #997 on: January 10, 2015, 05:02:52 am »
So no reports of the the fix NOT working so far?
Is it safe to say Rigol have fixed the issue yet?

Perfectly put "No reports of the fix NOT working".

As a general statement the fix is working. I'd prefer a hardware fix but I'm not unhappy with it. Put another way, if Rigol offered a hardware fix alternative and I had to pay shipping I'd just keep it the way it is.



 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #998 on: January 10, 2015, 06:23:10 am »
One thing that I'm pretty sure it worked before on the DS2000 series, was reinsertion of a memory stick.

Now I can insert it once but once you remove it it doesn't recognize re-insertions.
 

Offline Orange

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Re: EEVblog #683 - Rigol DS1000Z & DS2000 Oscilloscope Jitter Problems
« Reply #999 on: January 10, 2015, 09:51:02 am »
So no reports of the the fix NOT working so far?
Is it safe to say Rigol have fixed the issue yet?
You seem to look every time for another excuse to not publish your DS1000Z series review.

Don't you read the replies that all posters here say that the issues are fixed ?
 


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