Author Topic: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour  (Read 26174 times)

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Offline NickS

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2014, 03:26:44 am »
Dave I'd be curious to know what they thought about your exploding capacitor mishap and your teardown video.  ;D
 

Offline janengelbrecht

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2014, 03:35:43 am »
really good episode :) interesting to get an insight into the modern production world.  :-+

Offline SeanB

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2014, 04:43:01 am »
There was tangential discussion about cracked capacitors, so there likely was off camera talk about the board.

Video was good enough, not much frame dropping just the usual stutter with video at times. The subject matter was very interesting, that they were doing such work in such a small facility was impressive, and the level of automation was leading to very good outgoing quality but they still did 100% assurance on all units.
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2014, 04:51:27 am »

So you decided to become Dave's volunteer cocksucker? Congratulations for your new job.


Yeah I agree though.  That guy nitpicking about the video is distracting and annoying.  Its like that guy in the room that is always complaining about something.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2014, 05:00:32 am »
There was tangential discussion about cracked capacitors, so there likely was off camera talk about the board.


I'd really like to see the real McCoy, you know there will be part samples as well as a couple boards kicking around. Not many people get to see in a bad-boy box unless they are staff of course. Understandable but I'd really like to see the stuff just the same.
 

Offline aroby

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2014, 05:16:43 am »
Very nice video - the CEO actually knows his stuff, amazing.

Why would the CEO not know his stuff??  Clearly he used to be somewhat hands on.  I can't recall ever meeting a CEO who didn't know how his business works.  And I've met a lot.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 05:22:12 am »
There were a few interesting things in the way they manufacture in that video, but overall I mostly question how an operation like this can survive in a place like Australia. The key issue isn't their production costs. They don't employ many people. Electronics manufacture is all about logistics, and the logistics in Australia must be highly problematic.

The Australian component market is so small, by global standards, that most component makers aren't even represented. Those that are can't afford the stockholding needed to fully support JIT manufacturing. Manufacturers must need to hold a lot of stock themselves, and have 100% of their component needs settled well before manufacture commences. That's not usually a problem with the major components, like the big chips, but quite a few changes to minor components frequently occur close to the end of development testing. Someone from manufacturing in Shenzhen would look at that, and be puzzled how you can run a business that way. They are used to pulling in millions of general purpose parts at a few hours notice. They find enough problems just moving production lines inland, where they are still just an overnight freight train ride away from the stocks in Shenzhen. A lot of manufacture has moved back to the coast, despite the high property and labour costs there.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 05:27:26 am »
I can't recall ever meeting a CEO who didn't know how his business works.  And I've met a lot.
You must have only had dealings with a narrow range of CEO types. Most wouldn't even recognise most of their production equipment, and this is not necessarily a problem. For example, in a medical devices company the CEO could very reasonably have a medical or an engineering background, but it highly unlikely to have a good understanding of everything in his business.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2014, 05:29:32 am »
Video was good enough, not much frame dropping just the usual stutter with video at times.

I can't see how any dropped frames or stutter could possibly be my video, it must be youtube and/or browser and/or internet.
 

Offline steve30

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2014, 05:53:37 am »
Interesting video. Always cool to see these kinds of places.

I think one of his monitors needs degaussing though  ;D.

Dave's 'walking around' videos always have far too much motion blur for my liking. Not sure what causes it as some people's videos don't have it anywhere near as bad, but its not worth complaining about when the subject is interesting  :).
 

Offline EvilGeniusSkis

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2014, 06:11:59 am »
Interesting video. Always cool to see these kinds of places.

I think one of his monitors needs degaussing though  ;D.

Dave's 'walking around' videos always have far too much motion blur for my liking. Not sure what causes it as some people's videos don't have it anywhere near as bad, but its not worth complaining about when the subject is interesting  :).

then why are you complaining?


What did Ness have to say about you board Dave?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2014, 07:00:56 am »
Video was good enough, not much frame dropping just the usual stutter with video at times.
I can't see how any dropped frames or stutter could possibly be my video, it must be youtube and/or browser and/or internet.
This video does look exceptionally jerky when you are moving around, even when you aren't moving very fast. Something wasn't working at its best that day. You have a couple of other videos this bad, while most are far better. I wonder if that relates to the hardware you used for these particular videos, or something about how it was used?
 

Offline IanJ

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2014, 07:39:07 am »
For those who can't watch the vid due to motion blurr.......are you watching it full screen by any chance?.......It'll be much easier to watch if you make it smaller.

For what it's worth.......I didn't find motion blurr a problem at all, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary compared to other wandering cam work I've seen or done myself.

A hugely enjoyable video from start to finish.

Ian.
Ian Johnston
www.ianjohnston.com
Manufacturer of the PDVS2 & PDVS2mini
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2014, 08:42:43 am »

That is interesting, I have the completely opposite opinion, I guess we all have different opinions how video should be shot. For me, videos where the shutter time is short feel jerky and stuttery (like a fast slide show), whereas motion-blur makes movements more fluent and smooth (fools the eye to think that there is real motion). I assumed this was the reason modern computer games have special shaders to mimic motion-blur as seen in a camera.

I just find it interesting that I can watch Aussie50 videos all day long, and he shoots most of his videos in a shed or other poorly lit places with a mid-range photo camera (Lumix TZ10 I think), yet I cannot watch most of Dave's walkaround videos.

Funny you mention motion blur in games, that's the first thing I turn off. I cannot tolerate it.

It just feels like the videos went through that Youtube anti-shake filter. I suspect they are recorded with IS on, or the camera is secretly doing some other "motion optimization".
 

Offline Arp

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2014, 08:54:34 am »
Great video!  :-+
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2014, 10:48:50 am »
A couple of suggestions.

1. maybe try a monopod so that your movement is on one plane. You don't have to attach the monopod to the camera you can carry it in one hand and just rest the camera on it when you want to keep it steady. That way you don't have to mess with folding a tripod.

2. Motion blur can be a result of a low number of i-frames used in the codec. One of the reasons consumer cameras are quite low cost is they use heavy compression so that data can be stored on regular SD Cards or similar media. An i-frame (intra frame) is a full image stored for the frame, to save bandwidth P frames or B frames are used that work a lot like interpolation using a algorithm to fill in the gaps. This doesn't work so well with fast motion. Your camera may have a setting that selects the number of i-frames but most consumer cameras do not. The problem being that the storage media needs to handle much greater bandwidths for the better codec. Ideally you would be better off with a camera that supports an all i-frame format such as AVC-Intra or All I but such cameras and associated media can be expensive.

PS for those complaining about the quality, dave is an engineer and entertainer not a film producer. The purpose of his videos are to inform and entertain and that he does very well. He is not trying to win any awards for videographer of the year. He started out with a naff webcam and has gradually improved, no doubt learning about better video techniques, lighting, audio etc as he has gone along. He is a talented engineer and very entertaining, and seems open enough to take useful suggestions on board. So if you know better perhaps it would be better offering him the benefit of your experience instead of complaining I'm sure he will gladly take on board any useful tips that are easily implemented.
For more info on Tandy try these links Tandy History EEVBlog Thread & Official Tandy Website
 

Offline J.Tax

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2014, 11:36:04 am »
I realy liked this view inside a Assembly Factory. Currently I'm having a internship at a assembly factory, and it isn't even so large as this one.The way they handle boxes is a very nice system. Its different then what we use at my internship.

If you would like to, make more videos about this kind of stuff, visit more factory's inside Australia, and maybe other country's ;)
 

Offline GEuser

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2014, 11:57:53 am »
and the dude posting about motion blurring , please go out and get a life if that's all one can bitch about imo ...

So you decided to become Dave's volunteer cocksucker? Congratulations for your new job.

Ha Ha Ha Ha , go look in a mirror and say hello "if" you can to mojo ...
Soon
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2014, 12:20:02 pm »
This video does look exceptionally jerky when you are moving around, even when you aren't moving very fast. Something wasn't working at its best that day. You have a couple of other videos this bad, while most are far better. I wonder if that relates to the hardware you used for these particular videos, or something about how it was used?

For the countless time now:
ALL videos cameras do this when you use auto mode in low lighting conditions. Yes indoor light like this is "low light". If I walked outside wiht the camera still recording the motion blur would disappear.
Even the 50fps original footage has motion blur, and if I shot it with a 120fps Gopro it would still have motion blur.
The only way to void it is to shoot a fixed very high shutter speed, and then you get crap grainy footage instead. Chose which one you hate least.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2014, 12:24:15 pm »
PS for those complaining about the quality, dave is an engineer and entertainer not a film producer. The purpose of his videos are to inform and entertain and that he does very well. He is not trying to win any awards for videographer of the year. He started out with a naff webcam and has gradually improved, no doubt learning about better video techniques, lighting, audio etc as he has gone along. He is a talented engineer and very entertaining, and seems open enough to take useful suggestions on board. So if you know better perhaps it would be better offering him the benefit of your experience instead of complaining I'm sure he will gladly take on board any useful tips that are easily implemented.

Can people please stop offering advice on how to fix this. I know precisely what I am doing, I know how to shoot video properly, I do not need any more advice, there are simply compromises made in these shooting situations. I do things for very good reasons I am sick of explaining over and over, many of which you would not understand unless you are in my exact position doing this stuff.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2014, 12:25:56 pm »
It just feels like the videos went through that Youtube anti-shake filter. I suspect they are recorded with IS on, or the camera is secretly doing some other "motion optimization".

Yes, dynamic IS was turned on.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2014, 12:26:20 pm »
Well I watched the video all the way through and thoroughly enjoyed it, mainly because I use local contract assemblers over here in Blighty.

When I started my first production runs, I tried out China but the quality was awful, primarily because they substituted parts despite them insisting that they wouldn't do that. The culture is to say yes to everything, and then cut corners. They will say they will order the parts from Farnell/Mouser/Digikey/RS as per you BOM, but they won't. They used crappy voltage regulators, with a 25% failure rate, that dumped 5V onto a 1.2V bus, also busting the most expensive parts on the board in the process.

They even had the nerve to complain that the connectors didn't fit the board because they'd not ordered the ones I'd specified. (An interesting aside to this is that I warned the Raspberry Pi folks about exactly this behaviour in China, and look what happened to them when their assembler took it upon themselves to substitute RJ45 jacks without magnetics and they had to have 10k+ boards reworked as a result).

My first run China run had a 50% fail rate due to their parts substitution. The straw that broke the camel's back was that China shuts down for two weeks during the Chinese new year. When you're looking at your cash flow, and you won't see any boards for at least six weeks, it's time to consider other options.

Yes China is cheap, maybe half the cost of a local assembler, but you will pay for it in other ways  particularly in low to medium sized runs. If you can afford to have someone you trust working for you in China who will manage the vendor relationship and who understands the culture, and can physically manage the vendor, then it can work. But otherwise I strongly recommend, from my own experiences, that you find a local, personally recommended, assembler where you can look into the whites of their eyes, press the flesh, and have a proper business relationship with.

A local manufacturer works better in other ways too, not least that if something isn't right you can jump in your car and resolve the situation, or more frequently organise for parts for quick delivery when the P&P machine goes tits up and sprays the atmosphere with 1,000 unmarked 0402s. You're buggered on that score if your assembler is in China.

What I've highlighted here is that it's not at all rare for small to medium scale assembly to take place outside of SE Asia, in fact I'd say it's probably the norm.

Make sure any assembler you use is capable of placing your parts. One I tried had a 4 week contracted turnaround, then returned the parts unassembled 4 weeks later saying they couldn't do it because 0402 wouldn't work in their machine. They said they could do it, but failed. That really pissed me off as you can imagine, another cash flow nightmare as well as a bunch of irritated customers. I ended up hand placing that entire run myself, 12,000 parts in total.

One final point I'd like to make is that a personally recommended assembler in my experience turned out to be significantly cheaper and more flexible to the assemblers that you find on the internet where you plug in the number of componenents and how many BGAs or fine pitch devices you have.

So don't be surprised that there's manufacturing going on outside China, it's much more common than you might think.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:32:01 pm by Howardlong »
 

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2014, 12:33:13 pm »
I just find it interesting that I can watch Aussie50 videos all day long, and he shoots most of his videos in a shed or other poorly lit places with a mid-range photo camera (Lumix TZ10 I think), yet I cannot watch most of Dave's walkaround videos.

Aussie50's video have motion blur just like mine do.
And you are not comparing apples to apples, people never do when it comes to this stuff. It only takes maybe a 50 or 100 lux difference in a scene to make a big difference in the shutter speed the camera chooses in auto mode. That could be enough to be the difference between motion blur or no motion blur at a given sweep speed on a given camera.
If I don't use the dynamic IS I get countless complaints about the bouncy footage. I can't win, and quite frankly I'm sick to death about hearing about this stuff  |O
 

Offline Simon

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2014, 12:56:30 pm »
Quote
The video quality is fine for the environment. Yes the panning drives me mad too but it's not that bad. This was shot on the move in confined spaces with poor light.

Oops, Dave goofed this post and edited instead of replied!

Not only that, but I'm trying to interview the guy, look at the stuff myself, analyse what they are saying on the fly and subconsciously think about what to ask next,  trying to keep personal engagement, keep one eye on the framing and audio levels etc etc.
I've got a dozen jobs to do while I'm doing this, and yet people want to me focus on panning slowly and smoothly, setting up shots etc. It's just ludicrous to even suggest that under such circumstances.
Unless you have done this, you won't understand that it's just much better all round to whack the camera on auto with IS on and "get what you get".
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 01:09:24 pm by EEVblog »
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Offline Towger

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Re: EEVblog #684 - Ness SMT Maufacturing & Assembly Factory Tour
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2014, 12:57:57 pm »
Can people please stop offering advice on how to fix this.

You need a 'neck like a jockey's bollox' to be in this You Tube game.  ;)
 


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